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This page requires external references from news agencies. I have notified the page creator Astral highway ( talk) 14:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
This article [1] describes him as a political leader. Brian Pearson ( talk) 14:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Did he really kill his children? I take away that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.21.10 ( talk) 18:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
update: I reinserted the cat after finding a reliable source, the New York Daily News, that states that he purposefully stayed in the building with his children after being warned of the impending bombing. See [2]-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
"Killing" or "sacrificing" his children is kind of melodramatic and unencyclopedic, even if it's stated by a source. It suffices to say that he kept them with him even under the threat of being bombed. Obviously, though, if he was going to make himself and his family sitting ducks, the Israeli military was only too happy to oblige his apparent desire for martyrdom. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Although this is no big deal, I think the latter is better since it is likely to be closer to the original Arabic. Double letters do occur in Arabic and are pronounced separately. It is also the spelling used by BBC. PatGallacher ( talk) 00:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
What about adding the Arabic name? [3] نزار ريان
I thought he was Muslim. When did he convert? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
This article is a biography of Nizar Rayan and should include all information regarding his life story. People that were killed at the same time as him or on the same day as him are of no relevance to his life story. In addition, its insertion into this article might violate WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV (see also WP:COATRACK). The proper home for information regarding other deaths are at 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. Thus, I am removing the sentence which discusses other deaths that are not in anyway connected to his life story.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This article would look silly if each sentence is prefaced with its source. It lacks prose and is not a MOS that is used at WP. Admittedly, a preface is required for certain occasions, where a POV news source like Al-Jazeera or Arutz Sheva is making a claim unsupported by other sources. But if it's a mainstream source like the International Herald Tribune or CNN a preface is not needed. We are writing an encyclopedia article, not a legal brief.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
and nobody claims otherwise. The only point of contradiction is exactly how was warned. According to some sources he was warned via text message, according to others he was called an half an hour before, and according to others he was warned with a warning missile. Therefore, we don't need full sentences about the sources for each claim and we surely don't need full sentences regarding the sources of the sources. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 05:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Page 3 of the article [5] states that "The bearded Rayyan, who mentored suicide bombers and sent one of his sons on a "martyrdom" mission". -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
None of the sources support the claim that he killed two settlers. Although the murder took place in a settlement he could have killed two random Israelis who happened to be there at the time. It is unlikely that he verified the political views of the people he murdered before murdering them. The sentence already says that the murder took place in a settlement. That suffices. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This is quite questionable According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children – in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home." [1] He put nearby civilians at risk as well. [2]
Jeffrey Goldberg is a right-wing columnist and not a reliable news/information source. We need to edit accordingly. Haberstr ( talk) 21:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
This issue might be better discussed at the category's talkpage, but Category:Hamas members does not necessarily include Palestinian terrorists. Hamas is now the governing entity of Gaza. So although at one point all Hamas members can correctly be a subcat of Palestinian terrorists, now being a Hamas member could just mean that they are part of the government, but they are not necessarily terrorists. I'm actually surprised there actually is a Category:Palestinian terrorists due to Wikipedia's general aversion to these terms, but once it's used it should probably be added to this article. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 16:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Haberstr is proposing a number of changes to this article. Let's discuss them piecemeal.
User:Haberstr is proposing to change
He was a top clerical authority in the Islamic organization, and served as liaison between Hamas's political leadership and its military wing. He was killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.
to:
He served as liaison between Hamas's political leadership and its military wing and was a top clerical authority in the Islamic organization. He was killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.
I think the original version is better because it makes more sense to have his greater claims of notability listed before his lesser claims to notability. He is more notable for being "a top clerical authority" then a "liason". -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
In the lede, User:Haberstr is proposing to change "killed by an Israeli missile strike" to "killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house". I think the original version is better because it is more concise and more in-line with the nomenclature of the reliable sources describing the incident. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's how I've changed this section as of 2/23/09 ((Stuff within double parentheses added)):
Personal life and background
- ((PARAGRAPH 1: Note that this intro paragraph includes educational and personal details, and the barebones of his professional/clerical career.))Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan. [2] [3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] including at Imad Aqil Mosque in Jabaliya, where Rayan had returned to live. He would eventually marry four women with whom he had at least eleven children:[5] Aya, Halima, Aicha, Maryam, Zeinab, Assaad, Ossman Bin Zaid, Reem, Abdul Rahman, Abdul Qader, Ghassan, and two more children under 5;[citation needed] all of Rayan's wives and nine of his children died in the Israeli missile attack that killed him.
- ((PARAGRAPH 2: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about his clerical status and career. Note addition of the word "arguably" because whether Rayan was in fact Hamas' topc clerical authority is speculation.))Rayan became a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip.[4][6] After an Israeli missile strike killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan arguably came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[7][3] He had a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3]
- ((PARAGRAPH 3: Coherence: All of this paragraph is military and suicide bombing stuff about Rayan. Note that speculation that Rayan 'enjoyed' going on patrol with his men is removed.))Rayan regularly went on patrol with Hamas militia after delivering lectures at the Islamic University.[8] Rayan mentored suicide bombers.[8] In 2001, he sent his 22-year-old son on a suicide bombing mission, which killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[9][10][11][12][13][14][8] Rayan is alleged to have directed and financed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[15][3][14][16] Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, but Rayan advocated for their renewal in response to the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[6][8]
- ((PARAGRAPH 4: Coherence: All of this is the 'Battle of Gaza' and its repercussions.))Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which between 116 and 400 Fatah and Hamas militia and civilians were killed and Hamas and Fatah are accused of torturing members of the other party.[17][8][3] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
- ((PARAGRAPH 5: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about Rayan's attitude toward Israel.))Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[9] He proclaimed, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[18]
- ((PARAGRAPH 6: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about Rayan's opinions on Jews. Note attribution of speculation by Goldberg. If he were a news reporter rather than a pro-Israel columnist (I believe he's a former member of the IDF)), the attribution would not be necessary.))According to writer Jeffrey Goldberg, Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah,[18] and that Jews must pay for murdering the prophets of Islam and "closing [their] ears to the Messenger of Allah."[18]
Here's how you've repeatedly reverted the section:
Personal life and background
- ((PARAGRAPH 1: Note that this intro paragraph includes educational and personal details, and details on the clerical jobs he held, and how he liked to go out on patrol with his men, and how big his library is. That makes an incoherent paragraph.))Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan.[2][3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] before becoming a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip.[4][5] Rayan enjoyed going out on patrol with the militants after delivering lectures.[6] He had a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3] He was married to four women with whom he had at least eleven children.[7]
- ((PARAGRAPH 2: This paragraph is incoherent, mixing a detail about his clerical career with an important detail about his son as a suicide bomber. It is POV to label his mosque as the "Mosque of Martyrs" without clarifying what it's official name is.))An influential preacher at what is known in Jabalia as the "Mosque of martyrs", Rayan mentored suicide bombers.[8][6] In 2001, he sent his own 22-year old son on a suicide mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[9][10][11][12][13][14][6]
- ((PARAGRAPH 3: Again, incoherent; a detail about suicide bombing (it is POV not to include why and when he advocated the renewal of suicide bombings, by the way) with something about clerical career within Hamas, then back to suicide attacks.))After Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, Rayan advocated for their renewal.[5][6] When the Israeli military killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[3] Rayan directed and financed the Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[15][3][14][16]
- ((PARAGRAPH 4: This paragraph is coherent. Note how I've eliminated the POV number of dead in exchange for the range of estimates available. I also eliminated the POV certainty that Hamas was maiming and torturing and added balance, that both sides accuse the other of such actions.))Rayan was one of the principal architects behind the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Palestinian Fatah party members were killed and dozens more Palestinians were tortured and maimed.[6][3] According to an Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
- ((PARAGRAPH 5: Coherent; I don't think I changed this paragraph.))Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[9] He proclaimed, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[17]
- ((PARAGRAPH 6: Coherent; added source of this opinion, since it is a strong POV source.))Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah.[17] He also believed that Jews must pay for murdering prophets of Islam and "closing [their] ears to the Messenger of Allah."[17]
Haberstr version:
Israeli attack
- Paragraph 1: Note how this is an introductory paragraph] Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[19] A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing Rayan, his four wives, and 11 of their children.[20][21][11][12]
- Paragraph 2: Note how this paragraph collects together rall the about security precautions and warnings, what we know and what is contended. The important words are “may have warned” since there is glaringly contradictory RS material on that point.] Unlike other Hamas leaders at risk of being targeted by Israel, Rayan did not go into hiding after the armed conflict with Israel began in late December.[9][14][22][4] Also, the IDF may have warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent.[2][23][14][8][8] However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."[24]
- Paragraph 3: Note how I’ve moved material around so that this paragraph has a unified topic.] According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack.[3] The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.[21][13][8] According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."[8] He put nearby civilians to risk as well.[21]
- Paragraph 4] Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004.[10] Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.[8]
Brewcrewer version:
Israeli attack
- Paragraph 1: Note how this is not an introductory paragraph. What would be the POV motivation for placing this information first?] Rayan was preaching in a local mosque the day before he was killed and declared: "Our only language with the Jew is through the gun".[8] He also appeared on Al-Aqsa TV proclaiming, "God willing, the evil state, the Jewish state will not break the resistance.[9]
- Paragraph 2: Oh, your second paragraph is the introductory paragraph. Poor organization for an encyclopedia article.] Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[19] A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing Rayan, his four wives, and 11 of their children.[20][21][11][12]
- Paragraph 3: We know Rayan did not go into hiding, we do not know what if any security precautions he took. We can’t assume Rayan “stayed at home” during the entire conflict, and RS don’t do so.] Rayan did not take security precautions despite the fact that Hamas figures were at risk of being assassinated.[22][4] While most of Hamas' leaders went into hiding after the Israeli operation began in December, Rayan chose to stay at home.[9][14]
- Paragraph 4: First sentence jumps to a conclusion despite directly contradictory RS.] The IDF warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent and urged him to evacuate his family, but he refused to leave,[23][24][14][8] and did not allow his family to leave.[25] According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."[8] He put nearby civilians to risk as well.[21]
- Paragraph 5: Luckily, this article’s title is Nizar Rayan and it is not about the disputed and difficult to confirm targeted killing practices of the Israeli military, so the first sentence can and must be removed.] The Israeli military often contacts Gazans, either by telephone or flier, and warns when attacks are imminent ("Roof knocking").[24][26][27][28] However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."[26]
- Paragraph 6: Too many paragraphs; note how I’ve created one “all on that topic” for each major topic and moved things around accordingly.] According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack.[3] The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.[21][13][8]
- Paragraph 7: Nothing changed here] Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004.[10] Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.[8]
Haberstr ( talk) 21:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
It would be much more conducive for collaboration if instead of making large chunk changes the editors make changes piece by piece. It is easier to figure out what each other are doing. Thanks, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 06:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's how I've changed this section as of 2/23/09 ((Stuff within double parentheses added)):
*Note the comment below is addressed to Brewcrewer, whose name I have removed from this title, per
WP:TALK.
Tiamut
talk 03:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Brewcrewer has chosen to restore his name in the heading above and so to avoid confusion, I am striking my previous comment. Please note that Haberstr's comment below is addressed to Brewcrewer.
Tiamut
talk
14:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
You've reconstructed your anti- Rayan attack page, removing all the balance I've supplied. You're an ideologue clearly on a mission and I will have to revert. I _will_ add the Reuters info about his suicide bomber mentoring somewhere, however, but I'll have to make it accord with Reuters, not indicating that he was mentoring in the mosque. See how I'm trying to be inclusive? I hope my approach will someday be a model for your approach; until that day, please go to a POV-driven site and stay off wikipedia. Haberstr ( talk) 20:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC) I also added the info from the Guardian that he was ARGUABLY the leading Hamas clerical figure. Haberstr ( talk) 20:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Brewcrewer, with all due respect, working with you is not as pleasurable from my end. Almost every edit I made to this article months ago was reverted or rejected by you, and I simply gave up and went away. I don't have time to argue in circles. In this , you have tossed out a number of good changes and sourced additions made by Haberstr, TM and myself, without explaining what your problem with these changes is. You need to isolate the problems you have, we cannot read your mind. Please go through the diff I have provided and explain why each change was rejected by you. Without such an explanation, the text in question should be restored. We cannot open an RfC or move to mediation when it is not even clear what the problem you and Tundrabuggy have with the changes that have been made. You two do not own this article, so please work with me, if it is indeed true that this is something you would love to do. Tiamut talk 13:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Tiamut talk 13:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
This edit inexplicably removed the fact that he "mentored suicide bombers" together with its source, Reuters. Please revert. Thanks, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 22:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Sorry Brewcrewer, but how is Rayan's repeated reminders to Chris Hedges that Hamas only started conducting suicide bombings in 1994, not relevant to an article on Rayan again? Using such a narrow definition of relevancy, one could argue a discussion of suicide bombings are not relevant to this article. After all, Rayan was not carrying one out when he was killed in his home. Please try to expand your mind and heart. My edit is faithful to the source and is relevant to this article. If you have a suggestion on how to rephrase though, I'm open to hearing it. Thanks. Tiamut talk 22:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I thought it would be appropriate to add the thing about him having sent his own kid off to be a suicide bomber. It is mentioned in at least two of the sources, so is notable. It is also an unusual fact, thank heavens! I think we should put the word "mentored" in quotes since it is actually a word used in the source and very specific in meaning. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 05:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Would like to add some more flesh to the lead. As it stands now it says:
I think it highly notable his advocacy of suicide bombings against Israel. It fills out the picture of the man, and also makes some sense out of why he was targeted by Israel. It belongs in the lead. To read this one would almost think he was an intellectual and a "dove", maybe a Mahatma Ghandi clone. Misleading, maybe? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
This is a biography. I've tried repeatedly simply to make this biography chronological in order. But the editor who claims ownership of this entry insists on chaotic order, with the exception that anything that reflects poorly on Rayan is put at the beginning of sections. Haberstr ( talk) 16:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Addendum: I've also fully explained what I was doing, that one of the primary motives for my changes was to establish some chronological sanity, in the talk sections above. I received no response to these explanations from the Nizar Rayan wikipedia entry owning editor.
Personal life and background
Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan.[2][3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] including the Jabalia's Imad Aqil Mosque (known as the "Mosque of martyrs."[5][6][7]) He was [beginning in 1994 and ending in 2004/5]a committed advocate of suicide bombing attacks against Israel and "mentored" suicide bombers, even sending [in 2001]one of his own children on a suicide mission that killed two Israelis. [5][8][9] At the time of his death[in 2009], he had four wives and twelve children.[3][10] Rayan's four wives, and their ages at the time of their deaths, were Hiam 'Abdul Rahman Rayan, 46; Iman Khalil Rayan, 46; Nawal Isma'il Rayan, 40; and Sherine Sa'id Rayan, 25. The 11 Rayan children, and their ages when they died, were As'ad, 2; Usama Ibn Zaid, 3; 'Aisha, 3; Reem, 4; Miriam, 5; Halima, 5; 'Abdul Rahman, 6; Abdul Qader, 12; Aaya, 12; Zainab, 15; and Ghassan, 16.[11]
Rayan became a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip[late 90s?].[4][12] After an Israeli missile strike killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[13][3] He had [at the time of his death, 2009] a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3] Rayan regularly went on patrol with Hamas militants after delivering lectures at the Islamic University.[9]
In 2001, he sent his 22-year-old son on a suicide bombing mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[14][15][5][16][17][18][9] Rayan is alleged to have directed and financed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[19][3][18][20] Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, but Rayan advocated for their renewal.[12][9]
Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Fatah loyalists were killed and dozens more were tortured and maimed.[21][22][9][3] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan [in 2007 or 2008] due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
Haberstr ( talk) 20:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Are you serious? Okay then, I'll play along. 1959. Check. Tiamut talk 21:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, before you take me seriously on that, I won't. The issue is not merely that there is chronological caprice in your version, but rather that additional content has been added since that is well sourced and relevant to this article. You don't own this article Brewcrewer. I understand what it's like to feel attached to a piece of writing, but at Wikipedia we don't defend our version as the best version against all newcomers. We try to hear what other people have to say and respect the work they do to add things to an article. We encourage editors to be bold. That is not achieved by tossing out everything you did not write and making everyone discuss what you want to discuss about the merits of your own version. That's achieved by discussing the changes made, whether they are good or bad, and why. So please, for the umpteenth time, please tell me what's wrong with the changes introduced by Haberstr and myself? And if you don't have a response, I expect you won't be reverting again. Thanks. Tiamut talk 21:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, what is this idea of a "stable version? You should not revert helpful edits to wikipedia. See WP:PAPER; Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia and there is no such version as a "stable" one. Also read the bottom of the edit page where it says "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it."-- TM 23:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
And with this , he reverted again, and I believe violated WP:3RR. I'm not going to report him now, but if this continues tomorrow, we should consider taking this issue to WP:AE. Brewcrewer's been notified of the sanctions surrounding Israel-Palestine articles and failing to respond substantively to the concerns expressed by other editors is disruptive (see WP:TE). I won't have it waste all of our time, to be frank. Tiamut talk 00:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Brew - why are am I the one playing games when you have yet explain any of the problems with the stable version? Making mass changes and then demanding that others explain the problems with the new version instead of explaining the problems with the stable version is probably the worst method of collaborating with other editors, let alone violative of Far from productive... Wikifan12345 ( talk) 01:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
This encyclopedia is built through a collaborative effort of multiple editors. Thus, it is most elementary and fundamental that an editor can't make mass changes to articles and then demand that those that have a problem with his or her edits give detailed explanations for their issues with the changes. Because another editor can just switch back to the previous version with the same demand, and we just end up chasing our tails. This, in essence, is WP:BRD. Thus, editors who wish to make mass changes to an article must do more then just copy and paste their version and the previous version to the talkpage and claim that they have "discussed" the proposed changes at the talkpage. Thank you, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 01:21, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse or just extremely careless in your reading. Either way, what I am going to do right after I finish posting this, is to waste more of my precious time, to format the paragraphs in a way that will allow to see what Haberstr wrote more clearly. If you are truly interested in understanding and/or discussing what is wrong with your version (which has long ago ceased being a WP:CONSENSUS or "stable" version), you can by taking up a real discussion there.
What I think might be more beneficial, however, (as I have asked you in every post I have made since coming to this page after seeing Haberstr's request for more eyes on this article at WP:PALESTINE) is if you could simply explain what you find so objectionable about the changes that have been made with the input of many editors on this page and represented in this diff here. In the edit summary you claim that "there are numner of problems with thsi vsion including WP:OR and WP:NPOV". As Haberstr went to the trouble of explaining paragraph by paragraph what was wrong with your version and how he corrected it in his version, I think it's only fair you do the same here. Because I am having trouble understanding why your version is better.
Protecting your version by reverting it back into existence interminably and then claiming it is a "stable version" that has enjoyed consensus for two months is not a convincing argument. Excluding the work of others without explaining how the content goes against Wiki policy is disrespectful. So please explain in detail where the OR and NPOV are in the edits you reverted, paragraph by paragraph. We can then work together to address the concerns and forge a new consensus version that includes the efforts of all interested editors. Until we understand what your problem with the changes made are, we cannot move forward. Tiamut talk 19:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm signing off now, so I won't be able to respond to your comments/attacks until later. Best, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
if anyone watching this page - there's a nice image of the man. If no one will object in the next couple of days - it will be inserted. -- Sceptic Ashdod ( talk) 14:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_2_08-05-2009.jpg
Scep: Do you think we should put the pic in the infobox?-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 19:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_2_03-06-2009.jpg
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_3_03-06-2009.jpg
→Well, I wasn't exactly fair with you. The one below is neutral - but please take care of its tagging.
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_4.jpg -- Sceptic Ashdod ( talk) 18:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
After going through these I do not think any of these can be used without a fair-use rationale. The one image I was able to find its status is Image:Nizar_Rayyan_2_08-05-2009.jpg which is originally an AP picture ( source) The forum where these were taken also does not have any information relating to a release of copyright. As such, and as I have been unable to find a truly free image of Rayyan, I have uploaded a file that is not free but meets fair-use and its copyright owner can be properly attributed: Image:Nizar Rayyan AFP.jpg. Nableezy ( talk) 22:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
'In a Hamas rally on 23 June 2003 Rayyan stated in front of a mass crowed in Gaza:” All of Palestine will be liberated by our Mujaheedin (Muslim fighters) and their guns and not through fruitless political negotiations. Our campaign with the enemy will continue and will not stop at the borders of Gaza strip even after their retreat (from Gaza). Haifa, Beit Shean and Tabaria (Israeli cities within sovereign state of Israel before 1967) are our lands and with God’s will, we will celebrate in (the Israeli city of) Ashkelon”.'
'On 15 June 2007, a few days after the Hamas military coup taking over Gaza, Dr. Nizar Rayyan openly declared that the secular era in Gaza has ended and Islam will triumph over the Infidels.Rayyan promised to turn the headquarters of the National Security Forces (of the Palestinian Authority) in Gaza into a big mosque and to deliver a sermon at the presidential headquarters. In addition, he said: "In a few hours, the secular era in Gaza will end without leaving a trace... Today heresy ends. Today the struggle is between Islam and the infidels, and it will end with the victory of the faith.'
'Sheikh Rayyan was supportive of suicide attacks and preached vigorously in its favor encouraging Palestinians to carry out suicide operations, including an fanatic unprecedented personal example, when he agreed to send his son, Ibrahim Rayyan, age 14, to carry out a suicide operation during which he was killed by the Israeli army, after a successful penetration into an Israeli settlement that killed 2 Israelis in 2001.'
'..the Sheikh thought of the idea to camp out on roofs of houses in Gaza that Israel threatened to bomb from the air, and as such to prevent their bombing. In 2006 it was Dr. Rayyan, who cynically initiated to use the Palestinian civil population as a human shield to protect Hamas’ targets and homes against Israeli air strikes, knowing the sensitivity of the Israeli army in avoiding civilian casualties. Hamas used this fact in their terrorist build up of infrastructure during the recent temporary cease fire.'
all above from ICT report. -- Sceptic Ashdod ( talk) 14:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
→ Finkelstein, Norman. '
How can we help the Palestinian cause?' Workshop hosted by The Federation of Student Islamic Societies at Birkbeck College, University of London. 2008-01-23
Quote: "It is the IDF, and it's also illegally occupying Gaza, it's illegally invading them. But don't use terminology which is going to make it seem as if you're a propagandist. Use the terminology that everybody else uses. [...] You should insist on [the term "occupation."] But I would not use 'IOF.' It's 'IDF.' We don't have to become propagandists because we could just use the mainstream [term] and still succeed." Is this what you meant? --
Sceptic Ashdod (
talk)
11:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, I see you've gone back to trying to reinstate your version of how the article should look. We have been through this before, no? Tiamut talk 17:26, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Hey Tiamut. I thought you resigned a while back. Anyway, welcome back. The article has changed significantly and evolved since the last issue (maybe while you were gone) and we can't just revert based on year old discussion. Please explain your reasons for deleting huge chunks of the article. Best, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Brew, if the exact same text was unacceptable 3 months ago according to multiple editors why would it now be acceptable? nableezy - 18:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
6 months, 3 months, who cares. The point is why are trying to go back to the exact same article as existed 3 months or 6 months ago over the objections of other editors? When you apparently did not have much of a problem over the last 3 or 6 months about how the article progressed? nableezy - 19:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
The version that Brewcrewer prefers appears to be well sourced. Why are you removing well sourced material?
LoverOfTheRussianQueen (
talk)
19:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Truth is, you're probably right. It's not that notable that he orchestrated suicide bombings and it shouldn't be placed in the lede. I'm happy to see we've began discussing your specific concerns you have with the latest version so that we can make a collaborative effort to perfect the article. It's great to reach a consensus. I'm gonna go ahead and remove that part from the lede. If you have any more issues with the article, please raise them here. Best, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
brew: Nizar Rayan ( Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas leader who served as a liaison between the Palestinian organization's political leadership and its military wing. Also a professor of Islamic law, he came to be considered a top clerical authority within Hamas after the death of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004. Rayan was a strong advocate of suicide attacks on Israel. His sent his son on a suicide mission in which two Israeli civilians were killed. Rayan and most of his family were killed in an Israeli airstrike during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict. The Israeli military warned Rayan about the pending attack, but Rayan chose to stay in the house with his wives and children.
other: Nizar Rayan ( Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas leader who served as a liaison between the Palestinian organization's political leadership and its military wing. Also a professor of Islamic law, he came to be considered a top clerical authority within Hamas after the death of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004. Rayan was a strong advocate between 1994 and 2004 or 2005 of suicide attacks on Israel, and his son died on one such mission. Rayan and most of his family were killed in an Israeli airstrike during the Gaza War.
problems: overemphasis on suicide bombings in the lead
brew: According to the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, Rayan initiated the scheme of placing civilians on the rooftops of Hamas targets knowing that the Israeli army will avoid killing civilians. [3]
problems: single unreliable source
brew: Rayan strongly advocated suicide bombing attacks against Israel. [4] In 2001, he sent his son Ibrahim (either 14 [3] or 22 [5] years old) on a suicide bombing mission in which he died and killed two Israeli civilians at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip. [1] [4] [6] [7] [8] [9] Rayan is alleged to have directed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack which killed ten people. [10] [9] [11] [12] He also ruled that under Islamic law, women may become suicide bombers. [3] Hamas ceased its suicide attacks against Israel in 2005, [13] [1] but Rayan advocated for their renewal. [14]
others: Rayan and Hamas began to strongly advocate for suicide bombing attacks to be carried out against Israel in 1994. [4] According to Chris Hedges who interviewed him, Rayan constantly recalled that Hamas, "began to target Israeli civilians in 1994 only after Palestinian worshipers were gunned down in a Hebron mosque by a Jewish settler, Baruch Goldstein." [15] In 2001, with Rayan's backing his 22-year-old son went on a suicide bombing mission in which he died and killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip. [1] [4] [6] [5] [7] [8] [9] Rayan is alleged to have directed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack which killed ten people. [10] [9] [11] [12] Hamas ceased its suicide attacks against Israel in 2005, [13] [1] but Rayan advocated for their renewal after the 2008-2009 Gaza conflict began. [16]
problems: The 14 yr old is based on an unreliable source with a reliable source contradicting it. If you really want to keep the wording of the source "he sent his son" fine. But you also remove his reasons for advocating suicide attacks.
brew: Rayan was a bitter rival of the Palestinian Authority. [3] He was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Fatah loyalists were killed and dozens more were tortured and maimed. [10] [1] [17] [18] He later boasted that the battle "cleansed" the Gaza Strip of "traitors" and "CIA agents." [10] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible the Fatah-dominated Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes. [10] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night." [10]
others: Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which Fatah security forces were routed and between 116 and 400 Fatah and Hamas fighters and civilians lost their lives. Both Hamas and Fatah were accused of atrocities, including torture, during that conflict. [1] [19] [18] According to The Jerusalem Post, Rayan, "boasted that the Strip had been 'cleansed' of 'traitors' and 'CIA agents' - a reference to Abbas and his former security chiefs." [10] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible the Fatah-dominated Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes. [10] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night." [10]
problems: again, an over-reliance on an unreliable source. And that he wasnt a rival of the PA, he was a rival with Fatah, bit of a difference. Dont have a problem with removing "according to JPost". But keep the "reference to Abbas and his former security chiefs"
brew: He proclaimed "true Islam ..."
others: he said (dont think we need the "at one time said")
problems: whatever, but why "proclaimed" overly dramatic
brew: include names of wives in personal life. Others include in strike section. Personally I think it goes better there as the only reason we know their names is because they were killed, but whatever.
Israeli attack section:
Whats the point of the al-Aqsa TV quote? Also, why are you starting the section on the Israeli attack with something other than the Israeli attack. The current revision flow better with almost identical information. There really is no substantive difference in the content of that section so I do not understand why you keep reverting to it. Could you please explain why you are doing so?
nableezy -
05:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
What is the basis for your claim that the
International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, an academic think-tank, is a non-reliable source?
LoverOfTheRussianQueen (
talk)
14:32, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
btw, that is what brew told me long time ago: "You may be making sense. The oldest child killed in the missile strike was 16. It thus makes more sense that in 2001 his son was 14 and not 22". The gap between 14 and 22 is 8 years, and so is the gap between 2001 and 2009. think about it. -- Sceptic from Ashdod ( talk) 07:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Part of the recent edit war includes the addition of the honorific "Sheikh" in the first sentence of the article.
The manual of style says "Styles and honorifics related to clergy ... should not be included in the text inline".
LoverOfTheRussianQueen (
talk)
18:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
from the IMFA report (emphasis mine, SfA): "Ri’an was a senior Hamas operative, but he was not the target of the attack, although the IDF legitimately could have treated him as a military target due to his central role in planning and executing terrorist attacks. Instead, the operational goal of the strike was to destroy Hamas’ central compound in the Jabaliya refugee camp. The compound included several buildings that served as storage sites for large quantity of sophisticated weapons. The IDF limited the planned attack to the weapons storage site and did not seek to injure or harm Ri’an or, of course, any members of his family. The IDF also fired two separate rounds of preliminary warning shots with light weapons, 13 minutes and 9 minutes before the strike, providing sufficient time for residents to evacuate. The residents evidently understood these early warnings, as a group of them did leave the building, a fact confirmed by IDF surveillance before proceeding with the strike. The IDF observed this group evacuation and drew the reasonable conclusion that the buildings (including Ri’an’s house) were empty. Only then did the IDF launch the strike. Following the strike, secondary explosions were visible. This confirmed that Hamas used the buildings for weapons storage, and therefore it was a legitimate military objective according to the Law of Armed Conflict. Only later was it discovered that, Ri’an and his family chose to remain in the building after others had evacuated, leading to their death. The deaths of the Ri’an family members were tragic. Even so, it must be underscored that the IDF took appropriate steps to tailor its military strike to a proper military objective (the weapons storage site) under the cover of a civilian residence, and to extricate civilians from possible harm. To that end, the forces complied with international norms by giving effective advance warnings to at-risk civilians. That some civilians heeded these warnings, while the Ri’an family apparently did not, does not render the IDF’s action unlawful." Of course, for the article it would be abridged to one-two sentences and attributed, just thought it would be a proper response to B'Tselem statement. -- Sceptic from Ashdod ( talk) 07:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
nydn
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).AP
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help page).This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page requires external references from news agencies. I have notified the page creator Astral highway ( talk) 14:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
This article [1] describes him as a political leader. Brian Pearson ( talk) 14:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Did he really kill his children? I take away that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.21.10 ( talk) 18:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
update: I reinserted the cat after finding a reliable source, the New York Daily News, that states that he purposefully stayed in the building with his children after being warned of the impending bombing. See [2]-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 00:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
"Killing" or "sacrificing" his children is kind of melodramatic and unencyclopedic, even if it's stated by a source. It suffices to say that he kept them with him even under the threat of being bombed. Obviously, though, if he was going to make himself and his family sitting ducks, the Israeli military was only too happy to oblige his apparent desire for martyrdom. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Although this is no big deal, I think the latter is better since it is likely to be closer to the original Arabic. Double letters do occur in Arabic and are pronounced separately. It is also the spelling used by BBC. PatGallacher ( talk) 00:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
What about adding the Arabic name? [3] نزار ريان
I thought he was Muslim. When did he convert? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
This article is a biography of Nizar Rayan and should include all information regarding his life story. People that were killed at the same time as him or on the same day as him are of no relevance to his life story. In addition, its insertion into this article might violate WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV (see also WP:COATRACK). The proper home for information regarding other deaths are at 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. Thus, I am removing the sentence which discusses other deaths that are not in anyway connected to his life story.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This article would look silly if each sentence is prefaced with its source. It lacks prose and is not a MOS that is used at WP. Admittedly, a preface is required for certain occasions, where a POV news source like Al-Jazeera or Arutz Sheva is making a claim unsupported by other sources. But if it's a mainstream source like the International Herald Tribune or CNN a preface is not needed. We are writing an encyclopedia article, not a legal brief.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
and nobody claims otherwise. The only point of contradiction is exactly how was warned. According to some sources he was warned via text message, according to others he was called an half an hour before, and according to others he was warned with a warning missile. Therefore, we don't need full sentences about the sources for each claim and we surely don't need full sentences regarding the sources of the sources. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 05:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Page 3 of the article [5] states that "The bearded Rayyan, who mentored suicide bombers and sent one of his sons on a "martyrdom" mission". -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
None of the sources support the claim that he killed two settlers. Although the murder took place in a settlement he could have killed two random Israelis who happened to be there at the time. It is unlikely that he verified the political views of the people he murdered before murdering them. The sentence already says that the murder took place in a settlement. That suffices. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This is quite questionable According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children – in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home." [1] He put nearby civilians at risk as well. [2]
Jeffrey Goldberg is a right-wing columnist and not a reliable news/information source. We need to edit accordingly. Haberstr ( talk) 21:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
This issue might be better discussed at the category's talkpage, but Category:Hamas members does not necessarily include Palestinian terrorists. Hamas is now the governing entity of Gaza. So although at one point all Hamas members can correctly be a subcat of Palestinian terrorists, now being a Hamas member could just mean that they are part of the government, but they are not necessarily terrorists. I'm actually surprised there actually is a Category:Palestinian terrorists due to Wikipedia's general aversion to these terms, but once it's used it should probably be added to this article. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 16:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Haberstr is proposing a number of changes to this article. Let's discuss them piecemeal.
User:Haberstr is proposing to change
He was a top clerical authority in the Islamic organization, and served as liaison between Hamas's political leadership and its military wing. He was killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.
to:
He served as liaison between Hamas's political leadership and its military wing and was a top clerical authority in the Islamic organization. He was killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.
I think the original version is better because it makes more sense to have his greater claims of notability listed before his lesser claims to notability. He is more notable for being "a top clerical authority" then a "liason". -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
In the lede, User:Haberstr is proposing to change "killed by an Israeli missile strike" to "killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house". I think the original version is better because it is more concise and more in-line with the nomenclature of the reliable sources describing the incident. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's how I've changed this section as of 2/23/09 ((Stuff within double parentheses added)):
Personal life and background
- ((PARAGRAPH 1: Note that this intro paragraph includes educational and personal details, and the barebones of his professional/clerical career.))Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan. [2] [3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] including at Imad Aqil Mosque in Jabaliya, where Rayan had returned to live. He would eventually marry four women with whom he had at least eleven children:[5] Aya, Halima, Aicha, Maryam, Zeinab, Assaad, Ossman Bin Zaid, Reem, Abdul Rahman, Abdul Qader, Ghassan, and two more children under 5;[citation needed] all of Rayan's wives and nine of his children died in the Israeli missile attack that killed him.
- ((PARAGRAPH 2: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about his clerical status and career. Note addition of the word "arguably" because whether Rayan was in fact Hamas' topc clerical authority is speculation.))Rayan became a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip.[4][6] After an Israeli missile strike killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan arguably came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[7][3] He had a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3]
- ((PARAGRAPH 3: Coherence: All of this paragraph is military and suicide bombing stuff about Rayan. Note that speculation that Rayan 'enjoyed' going on patrol with his men is removed.))Rayan regularly went on patrol with Hamas militia after delivering lectures at the Islamic University.[8] Rayan mentored suicide bombers.[8] In 2001, he sent his 22-year-old son on a suicide bombing mission, which killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[9][10][11][12][13][14][8] Rayan is alleged to have directed and financed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[15][3][14][16] Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, but Rayan advocated for their renewal in response to the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[6][8]
- ((PARAGRAPH 4: Coherence: All of this is the 'Battle of Gaza' and its repercussions.))Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which between 116 and 400 Fatah and Hamas militia and civilians were killed and Hamas and Fatah are accused of torturing members of the other party.[17][8][3] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
- ((PARAGRAPH 5: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about Rayan's attitude toward Israel.))Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[9] He proclaimed, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[18]
- ((PARAGRAPH 6: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about Rayan's opinions on Jews. Note attribution of speculation by Goldberg. If he were a news reporter rather than a pro-Israel columnist (I believe he's a former member of the IDF)), the attribution would not be necessary.))According to writer Jeffrey Goldberg, Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah,[18] and that Jews must pay for murdering the prophets of Islam and "closing [their] ears to the Messenger of Allah."[18]
Here's how you've repeatedly reverted the section:
Personal life and background
- ((PARAGRAPH 1: Note that this intro paragraph includes educational and personal details, and details on the clerical jobs he held, and how he liked to go out on patrol with his men, and how big his library is. That makes an incoherent paragraph.))Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan.[2][3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] before becoming a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip.[4][5] Rayan enjoyed going out on patrol with the militants after delivering lectures.[6] He had a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3] He was married to four women with whom he had at least eleven children.[7]
- ((PARAGRAPH 2: This paragraph is incoherent, mixing a detail about his clerical career with an important detail about his son as a suicide bomber. It is POV to label his mosque as the "Mosque of Martyrs" without clarifying what it's official name is.))An influential preacher at what is known in Jabalia as the "Mosque of martyrs", Rayan mentored suicide bombers.[8][6] In 2001, he sent his own 22-year old son on a suicide mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[9][10][11][12][13][14][6]
- ((PARAGRAPH 3: Again, incoherent; a detail about suicide bombing (it is POV not to include why and when he advocated the renewal of suicide bombings, by the way) with something about clerical career within Hamas, then back to suicide attacks.))After Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, Rayan advocated for their renewal.[5][6] When the Israeli military killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[3] Rayan directed and financed the Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[15][3][14][16]
- ((PARAGRAPH 4: This paragraph is coherent. Note how I've eliminated the POV number of dead in exchange for the range of estimates available. I also eliminated the POV certainty that Hamas was maiming and torturing and added balance, that both sides accuse the other of such actions.))Rayan was one of the principal architects behind the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Palestinian Fatah party members were killed and dozens more Palestinians were tortured and maimed.[6][3] According to an Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
- ((PARAGRAPH 5: Coherent; I don't think I changed this paragraph.))Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[9] He proclaimed, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[17]
- ((PARAGRAPH 6: Coherent; added source of this opinion, since it is a strong POV source.))Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah.[17] He also believed that Jews must pay for murdering prophets of Islam and "closing [their] ears to the Messenger of Allah."[17]
Haberstr version:
Israeli attack
- Paragraph 1: Note how this is an introductory paragraph] Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[19] A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing Rayan, his four wives, and 11 of their children.[20][21][11][12]
- Paragraph 2: Note how this paragraph collects together rall the about security precautions and warnings, what we know and what is contended. The important words are “may have warned” since there is glaringly contradictory RS material on that point.] Unlike other Hamas leaders at risk of being targeted by Israel, Rayan did not go into hiding after the armed conflict with Israel began in late December.[9][14][22][4] Also, the IDF may have warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent.[2][23][14][8][8] However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."[24]
- Paragraph 3: Note how I’ve moved material around so that this paragraph has a unified topic.] According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack.[3] The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.[21][13][8] According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."[8] He put nearby civilians to risk as well.[21]
- Paragraph 4] Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004.[10] Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.[8]
Brewcrewer version:
Israeli attack
- Paragraph 1: Note how this is not an introductory paragraph. What would be the POV motivation for placing this information first?] Rayan was preaching in a local mosque the day before he was killed and declared: "Our only language with the Jew is through the gun".[8] He also appeared on Al-Aqsa TV proclaiming, "God willing, the evil state, the Jewish state will not break the resistance.[9]
- Paragraph 2: Oh, your second paragraph is the introductory paragraph. Poor organization for an encyclopedia article.] Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[19] A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing Rayan, his four wives, and 11 of their children.[20][21][11][12]
- Paragraph 3: We know Rayan did not go into hiding, we do not know what if any security precautions he took. We can’t assume Rayan “stayed at home” during the entire conflict, and RS don’t do so.] Rayan did not take security precautions despite the fact that Hamas figures were at risk of being assassinated.[22][4] While most of Hamas' leaders went into hiding after the Israeli operation began in December, Rayan chose to stay at home.[9][14]
- Paragraph 4: First sentence jumps to a conclusion despite directly contradictory RS.] The IDF warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent and urged him to evacuate his family, but he refused to leave,[23][24][14][8] and did not allow his family to leave.[25] According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."[8] He put nearby civilians to risk as well.[21]
- Paragraph 5: Luckily, this article’s title is Nizar Rayan and it is not about the disputed and difficult to confirm targeted killing practices of the Israeli military, so the first sentence can and must be removed.] The Israeli military often contacts Gazans, either by telephone or flier, and warns when attacks are imminent ("Roof knocking").[24][26][27][28] However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."[26]
- Paragraph 6: Too many paragraphs; note how I’ve created one “all on that topic” for each major topic and moved things around accordingly.] According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack.[3] The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.[21][13][8]
- Paragraph 7: Nothing changed here] Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004.[10] Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.[8]
Haberstr ( talk) 21:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
It would be much more conducive for collaboration if instead of making large chunk changes the editors make changes piece by piece. It is easier to figure out what each other are doing. Thanks, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 06:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's how I've changed this section as of 2/23/09 ((Stuff within double parentheses added)):
*Note the comment below is addressed to Brewcrewer, whose name I have removed from this title, per
WP:TALK.
Tiamut
talk 03:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Brewcrewer has chosen to restore his name in the heading above and so to avoid confusion, I am striking my previous comment. Please note that Haberstr's comment below is addressed to Brewcrewer.
Tiamut
talk
14:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
You've reconstructed your anti- Rayan attack page, removing all the balance I've supplied. You're an ideologue clearly on a mission and I will have to revert. I _will_ add the Reuters info about his suicide bomber mentoring somewhere, however, but I'll have to make it accord with Reuters, not indicating that he was mentoring in the mosque. See how I'm trying to be inclusive? I hope my approach will someday be a model for your approach; until that day, please go to a POV-driven site and stay off wikipedia. Haberstr ( talk) 20:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC) I also added the info from the Guardian that he was ARGUABLY the leading Hamas clerical figure. Haberstr ( talk) 20:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Brewcrewer, with all due respect, working with you is not as pleasurable from my end. Almost every edit I made to this article months ago was reverted or rejected by you, and I simply gave up and went away. I don't have time to argue in circles. In this , you have tossed out a number of good changes and sourced additions made by Haberstr, TM and myself, without explaining what your problem with these changes is. You need to isolate the problems you have, we cannot read your mind. Please go through the diff I have provided and explain why each change was rejected by you. Without such an explanation, the text in question should be restored. We cannot open an RfC or move to mediation when it is not even clear what the problem you and Tundrabuggy have with the changes that have been made. You two do not own this article, so please work with me, if it is indeed true that this is something you would love to do. Tiamut talk 13:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Tiamut talk 13:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
This edit inexplicably removed the fact that he "mentored suicide bombers" together with its source, Reuters. Please revert. Thanks, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 22:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Sorry Brewcrewer, but how is Rayan's repeated reminders to Chris Hedges that Hamas only started conducting suicide bombings in 1994, not relevant to an article on Rayan again? Using such a narrow definition of relevancy, one could argue a discussion of suicide bombings are not relevant to this article. After all, Rayan was not carrying one out when he was killed in his home. Please try to expand your mind and heart. My edit is faithful to the source and is relevant to this article. If you have a suggestion on how to rephrase though, I'm open to hearing it. Thanks. Tiamut talk 22:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I thought it would be appropriate to add the thing about him having sent his own kid off to be a suicide bomber. It is mentioned in at least two of the sources, so is notable. It is also an unusual fact, thank heavens! I think we should put the word "mentored" in quotes since it is actually a word used in the source and very specific in meaning. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 05:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Would like to add some more flesh to the lead. As it stands now it says:
I think it highly notable his advocacy of suicide bombings against Israel. It fills out the picture of the man, and also makes some sense out of why he was targeted by Israel. It belongs in the lead. To read this one would almost think he was an intellectual and a "dove", maybe a Mahatma Ghandi clone. Misleading, maybe? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
This is a biography. I've tried repeatedly simply to make this biography chronological in order. But the editor who claims ownership of this entry insists on chaotic order, with the exception that anything that reflects poorly on Rayan is put at the beginning of sections. Haberstr ( talk) 16:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Addendum: I've also fully explained what I was doing, that one of the primary motives for my changes was to establish some chronological sanity, in the talk sections above. I received no response to these explanations from the Nizar Rayan wikipedia entry owning editor.
Personal life and background
Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan.[2][3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] including the Jabalia's Imad Aqil Mosque (known as the "Mosque of martyrs."[5][6][7]) He was [beginning in 1994 and ending in 2004/5]a committed advocate of suicide bombing attacks against Israel and "mentored" suicide bombers, even sending [in 2001]one of his own children on a suicide mission that killed two Israelis. [5][8][9] At the time of his death[in 2009], he had four wives and twelve children.[3][10] Rayan's four wives, and their ages at the time of their deaths, were Hiam 'Abdul Rahman Rayan, 46; Iman Khalil Rayan, 46; Nawal Isma'il Rayan, 40; and Sherine Sa'id Rayan, 25. The 11 Rayan children, and their ages when they died, were As'ad, 2; Usama Ibn Zaid, 3; 'Aisha, 3; Reem, 4; Miriam, 5; Halima, 5; 'Abdul Rahman, 6; Abdul Qader, 12; Aaya, 12; Zainab, 15; and Ghassan, 16.[11]
Rayan became a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip[late 90s?].[4][12] After an Israeli missile strike killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[13][3] He had [at the time of his death, 2009] a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3] Rayan regularly went on patrol with Hamas militants after delivering lectures at the Islamic University.[9]
In 2001, he sent his 22-year-old son on a suicide bombing mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[14][15][5][16][17][18][9] Rayan is alleged to have directed and financed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[19][3][18][20] Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, but Rayan advocated for their renewal.[12][9]
Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Fatah loyalists were killed and dozens more were tortured and maimed.[21][22][9][3] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan [in 2007 or 2008] due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
Haberstr ( talk) 20:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Are you serious? Okay then, I'll play along. 1959. Check. Tiamut talk 21:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, before you take me seriously on that, I won't. The issue is not merely that there is chronological caprice in your version, but rather that additional content has been added since that is well sourced and relevant to this article. You don't own this article Brewcrewer. I understand what it's like to feel attached to a piece of writing, but at Wikipedia we don't defend our version as the best version against all newcomers. We try to hear what other people have to say and respect the work they do to add things to an article. We encourage editors to be bold. That is not achieved by tossing out everything you did not write and making everyone discuss what you want to discuss about the merits of your own version. That's achieved by discussing the changes made, whether they are good or bad, and why. So please, for the umpteenth time, please tell me what's wrong with the changes introduced by Haberstr and myself? And if you don't have a response, I expect you won't be reverting again. Thanks. Tiamut talk 21:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, what is this idea of a "stable version? You should not revert helpful edits to wikipedia. See WP:PAPER; Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia and there is no such version as a "stable" one. Also read the bottom of the edit page where it says "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it."-- TM 23:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
And with this , he reverted again, and I believe violated WP:3RR. I'm not going to report him now, but if this continues tomorrow, we should consider taking this issue to WP:AE. Brewcrewer's been notified of the sanctions surrounding Israel-Palestine articles and failing to respond substantively to the concerns expressed by other editors is disruptive (see WP:TE). I won't have it waste all of our time, to be frank. Tiamut talk 00:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Brew - why are am I the one playing games when you have yet explain any of the problems with the stable version? Making mass changes and then demanding that others explain the problems with the new version instead of explaining the problems with the stable version is probably the worst method of collaborating with other editors, let alone violative of Far from productive... Wikifan12345 ( talk) 01:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
This encyclopedia is built through a collaborative effort of multiple editors. Thus, it is most elementary and fundamental that an editor can't make mass changes to articles and then demand that those that have a problem with his or her edits give detailed explanations for their issues with the changes. Because another editor can just switch back to the previous version with the same demand, and we just end up chasing our tails. This, in essence, is WP:BRD. Thus, editors who wish to make mass changes to an article must do more then just copy and paste their version and the previous version to the talkpage and claim that they have "discussed" the proposed changes at the talkpage. Thank you, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 01:21, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse or just extremely careless in your reading. Either way, what I am going to do right after I finish posting this, is to waste more of my precious time, to format the paragraphs in a way that will allow to see what Haberstr wrote more clearly. If you are truly interested in understanding and/or discussing what is wrong with your version (which has long ago ceased being a WP:CONSENSUS or "stable" version), you can by taking up a real discussion there.
What I think might be more beneficial, however, (as I have asked you in every post I have made since coming to this page after seeing Haberstr's request for more eyes on this article at WP:PALESTINE) is if you could simply explain what you find so objectionable about the changes that have been made with the input of many editors on this page and represented in this diff here. In the edit summary you claim that "there are numner of problems with thsi vsion including WP:OR and WP:NPOV". As Haberstr went to the trouble of explaining paragraph by paragraph what was wrong with your version and how he corrected it in his version, I think it's only fair you do the same here. Because I am having trouble understanding why your version is better.
Protecting your version by reverting it back into existence interminably and then claiming it is a "stable version" that has enjoyed consensus for two months is not a convincing argument. Excluding the work of others without explaining how the content goes against Wiki policy is disrespectful. So please explain in detail where the OR and NPOV are in the edits you reverted, paragraph by paragraph. We can then work together to address the concerns and forge a new consensus version that includes the efforts of all interested editors. Until we understand what your problem with the changes made are, we cannot move forward. Tiamut talk 19:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm signing off now, so I won't be able to respond to your comments/attacks until later. Best, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
if anyone watching this page - there's a nice image of the man. If no one will object in the next couple of days - it will be inserted. -- Sceptic Ashdod ( talk) 14:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_2_08-05-2009.jpg
Scep: Do you think we should put the pic in the infobox?-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 19:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_2_03-06-2009.jpg
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_3_03-06-2009.jpg
→Well, I wasn't exactly fair with you. The one below is neutral - but please take care of its tagging.
Image:Nizar_Rayyan_4.jpg -- Sceptic Ashdod ( talk) 18:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
After going through these I do not think any of these can be used without a fair-use rationale. The one image I was able to find its status is Image:Nizar_Rayyan_2_08-05-2009.jpg which is originally an AP picture ( source) The forum where these were taken also does not have any information relating to a release of copyright. As such, and as I have been unable to find a truly free image of Rayyan, I have uploaded a file that is not free but meets fair-use and its copyright owner can be properly attributed: Image:Nizar Rayyan AFP.jpg. Nableezy ( talk) 22:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
'In a Hamas rally on 23 June 2003 Rayyan stated in front of a mass crowed in Gaza:” All of Palestine will be liberated by our Mujaheedin (Muslim fighters) and their guns and not through fruitless political negotiations. Our campaign with the enemy will continue and will not stop at the borders of Gaza strip even after their retreat (from Gaza). Haifa, Beit Shean and Tabaria (Israeli cities within sovereign state of Israel before 1967) are our lands and with God’s will, we will celebrate in (the Israeli city of) Ashkelon”.'
'On 15 June 2007, a few days after the Hamas military coup taking over Gaza, Dr. Nizar Rayyan openly declared that the secular era in Gaza has ended and Islam will triumph over the Infidels.Rayyan promised to turn the headquarters of the National Security Forces (of the Palestinian Authority) in Gaza into a big mosque and to deliver a sermon at the presidential headquarters. In addition, he said: "In a few hours, the secular era in Gaza will end without leaving a trace... Today heresy ends. Today the struggle is between Islam and the infidels, and it will end with the victory of the faith.'
'Sheikh Rayyan was supportive of suicide attacks and preached vigorously in its favor encouraging Palestinians to carry out suicide operations, including an fanatic unprecedented personal example, when he agreed to send his son, Ibrahim Rayyan, age 14, to carry out a suicide operation during which he was killed by the Israeli army, after a successful penetration into an Israeli settlement that killed 2 Israelis in 2001.'
'..the Sheikh thought of the idea to camp out on roofs of houses in Gaza that Israel threatened to bomb from the air, and as such to prevent their bombing. In 2006 it was Dr. Rayyan, who cynically initiated to use the Palestinian civil population as a human shield to protect Hamas’ targets and homes against Israeli air strikes, knowing the sensitivity of the Israeli army in avoiding civilian casualties. Hamas used this fact in their terrorist build up of infrastructure during the recent temporary cease fire.'
all above from ICT report. -- Sceptic Ashdod ( talk) 14:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
→ Finkelstein, Norman. '
How can we help the Palestinian cause?' Workshop hosted by The Federation of Student Islamic Societies at Birkbeck College, University of London. 2008-01-23
Quote: "It is the IDF, and it's also illegally occupying Gaza, it's illegally invading them. But don't use terminology which is going to make it seem as if you're a propagandist. Use the terminology that everybody else uses. [...] You should insist on [the term "occupation."] But I would not use 'IOF.' It's 'IDF.' We don't have to become propagandists because we could just use the mainstream [term] and still succeed." Is this what you meant? --
Sceptic Ashdod (
talk)
11:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, I see you've gone back to trying to reinstate your version of how the article should look. We have been through this before, no? Tiamut talk 17:26, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Hey Tiamut. I thought you resigned a while back. Anyway, welcome back. The article has changed significantly and evolved since the last issue (maybe while you were gone) and we can't just revert based on year old discussion. Please explain your reasons for deleting huge chunks of the article. Best, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Brew, if the exact same text was unacceptable 3 months ago according to multiple editors why would it now be acceptable? nableezy - 18:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
6 months, 3 months, who cares. The point is why are trying to go back to the exact same article as existed 3 months or 6 months ago over the objections of other editors? When you apparently did not have much of a problem over the last 3 or 6 months about how the article progressed? nableezy - 19:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
The version that Brewcrewer prefers appears to be well sourced. Why are you removing well sourced material?
LoverOfTheRussianQueen (
talk)
19:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Truth is, you're probably right. It's not that notable that he orchestrated suicide bombings and it shouldn't be placed in the lede. I'm happy to see we've began discussing your specific concerns you have with the latest version so that we can make a collaborative effort to perfect the article. It's great to reach a consensus. I'm gonna go ahead and remove that part from the lede. If you have any more issues with the article, please raise them here. Best, -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 20:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
brew: Nizar Rayan ( Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas leader who served as a liaison between the Palestinian organization's political leadership and its military wing. Also a professor of Islamic law, he came to be considered a top clerical authority within Hamas after the death of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004. Rayan was a strong advocate of suicide attacks on Israel. His sent his son on a suicide mission in which two Israeli civilians were killed. Rayan and most of his family were killed in an Israeli airstrike during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict. The Israeli military warned Rayan about the pending attack, but Rayan chose to stay in the house with his wives and children.
other: Nizar Rayan ( Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas leader who served as a liaison between the Palestinian organization's political leadership and its military wing. Also a professor of Islamic law, he came to be considered a top clerical authority within Hamas after the death of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004. Rayan was a strong advocate between 1994 and 2004 or 2005 of suicide attacks on Israel, and his son died on one such mission. Rayan and most of his family were killed in an Israeli airstrike during the Gaza War.
problems: overemphasis on suicide bombings in the lead
brew: According to the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, Rayan initiated the scheme of placing civilians on the rooftops of Hamas targets knowing that the Israeli army will avoid killing civilians. [3]
problems: single unreliable source
brew: Rayan strongly advocated suicide bombing attacks against Israel. [4] In 2001, he sent his son Ibrahim (either 14 [3] or 22 [5] years old) on a suicide bombing mission in which he died and killed two Israeli civilians at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip. [1] [4] [6] [7] [8] [9] Rayan is alleged to have directed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack which killed ten people. [10] [9] [11] [12] He also ruled that under Islamic law, women may become suicide bombers. [3] Hamas ceased its suicide attacks against Israel in 2005, [13] [1] but Rayan advocated for their renewal. [14]
others: Rayan and Hamas began to strongly advocate for suicide bombing attacks to be carried out against Israel in 1994. [4] According to Chris Hedges who interviewed him, Rayan constantly recalled that Hamas, "began to target Israeli civilians in 1994 only after Palestinian worshipers were gunned down in a Hebron mosque by a Jewish settler, Baruch Goldstein." [15] In 2001, with Rayan's backing his 22-year-old son went on a suicide bombing mission in which he died and killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip. [1] [4] [6] [5] [7] [8] [9] Rayan is alleged to have directed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack which killed ten people. [10] [9] [11] [12] Hamas ceased its suicide attacks against Israel in 2005, [13] [1] but Rayan advocated for their renewal after the 2008-2009 Gaza conflict began. [16]
problems: The 14 yr old is based on an unreliable source with a reliable source contradicting it. If you really want to keep the wording of the source "he sent his son" fine. But you also remove his reasons for advocating suicide attacks.
brew: Rayan was a bitter rival of the Palestinian Authority. [3] He was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Fatah loyalists were killed and dozens more were tortured and maimed. [10] [1] [17] [18] He later boasted that the battle "cleansed" the Gaza Strip of "traitors" and "CIA agents." [10] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible the Fatah-dominated Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes. [10] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night." [10]
others: Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which Fatah security forces were routed and between 116 and 400 Fatah and Hamas fighters and civilians lost their lives. Both Hamas and Fatah were accused of atrocities, including torture, during that conflict. [1] [19] [18] According to The Jerusalem Post, Rayan, "boasted that the Strip had been 'cleansed' of 'traitors' and 'CIA agents' - a reference to Abbas and his former security chiefs." [10] According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible the Fatah-dominated Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes. [10] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night." [10]
problems: again, an over-reliance on an unreliable source. And that he wasnt a rival of the PA, he was a rival with Fatah, bit of a difference. Dont have a problem with removing "according to JPost". But keep the "reference to Abbas and his former security chiefs"
brew: He proclaimed "true Islam ..."
others: he said (dont think we need the "at one time said")
problems: whatever, but why "proclaimed" overly dramatic
brew: include names of wives in personal life. Others include in strike section. Personally I think it goes better there as the only reason we know their names is because they were killed, but whatever.
Israeli attack section:
Whats the point of the al-Aqsa TV quote? Also, why are you starting the section on the Israeli attack with something other than the Israeli attack. The current revision flow better with almost identical information. There really is no substantive difference in the content of that section so I do not understand why you keep reverting to it. Could you please explain why you are doing so?
nableezy -
05:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
What is the basis for your claim that the
International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, an academic think-tank, is a non-reliable source?
LoverOfTheRussianQueen (
talk)
14:32, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
btw, that is what brew told me long time ago: "You may be making sense. The oldest child killed in the missile strike was 16. It thus makes more sense that in 2001 his son was 14 and not 22". The gap between 14 and 22 is 8 years, and so is the gap between 2001 and 2009. think about it. -- Sceptic from Ashdod ( talk) 07:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Part of the recent edit war includes the addition of the honorific "Sheikh" in the first sentence of the article.
The manual of style says "Styles and honorifics related to clergy ... should not be included in the text inline".
LoverOfTheRussianQueen (
talk)
18:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
from the IMFA report (emphasis mine, SfA): "Ri’an was a senior Hamas operative, but he was not the target of the attack, although the IDF legitimately could have treated him as a military target due to his central role in planning and executing terrorist attacks. Instead, the operational goal of the strike was to destroy Hamas’ central compound in the Jabaliya refugee camp. The compound included several buildings that served as storage sites for large quantity of sophisticated weapons. The IDF limited the planned attack to the weapons storage site and did not seek to injure or harm Ri’an or, of course, any members of his family. The IDF also fired two separate rounds of preliminary warning shots with light weapons, 13 minutes and 9 minutes before the strike, providing sufficient time for residents to evacuate. The residents evidently understood these early warnings, as a group of them did leave the building, a fact confirmed by IDF surveillance before proceeding with the strike. The IDF observed this group evacuation and drew the reasonable conclusion that the buildings (including Ri’an’s house) were empty. Only then did the IDF launch the strike. Following the strike, secondary explosions were visible. This confirmed that Hamas used the buildings for weapons storage, and therefore it was a legitimate military objective according to the Law of Armed Conflict. Only later was it discovered that, Ri’an and his family chose to remain in the building after others had evacuated, leading to their death. The deaths of the Ri’an family members were tragic. Even so, it must be underscored that the IDF took appropriate steps to tailor its military strike to a proper military objective (the weapons storage site) under the cover of a civilian residence, and to extricate civilians from possible harm. To that end, the forces complied with international norms by giving effective advance warnings to at-risk civilians. That some civilians heeded these warnings, while the Ri’an family apparently did not, does not render the IDF’s action unlawful." Of course, for the article it would be abridged to one-two sentences and attributed, just thought it would be a proper response to B'Tselem statement. -- Sceptic from Ashdod ( talk) 07:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
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