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Nat, excellent work, and a good start for the area. ( 20040302 14:23, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)) I added 'often' to the derisory mark (I beg tolerance on this!), and I think that 'now-defunct' implies 'no longer functional', which can also mean 'no good for functioning', which could be interpreted as perjorative. Maybe removed is okay, but we could also use something like 'now-inactive'? ( 20040302 14:27, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC))
ah, Mahayanan reading of sutras is that Hinayanan path is something to be avoided. Tibetan actually takes three wheel approach where they claim to practice all three vehcile in one. If any existing Mahayanan actually claim that Mahayananan can follow Hinayanan practice, let me know. FWBOarticle 05:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The 18,000 verse perfection of wisdom sutra (a Madhyamaka Mahayana sutra) states: Bodhisattvas should practice all paths - whatever is a path of a sravaka, a pratyeka or a Buddha - and should know all paths. ( 20040302)
I'm uncomfortable with some of the edits you added recently, FWBOarticle. You introduced a new definition, "a general term for those schools of Buddhism that arose out of dispute in 2nd Buddhist council (383 BC). In time, up to 18 schools arose, the only remaining one today being Theravada school." The problem with this is that not all of the Nikaya schools arose out of the second council. Theravada didn't appear until around the time of the third council. (as for there being 18 of them -- we list 27 on schools of Buddhism -- maybe there were 18 in ancient India) One could say that Theravada came out of the second council indirectly, but, given that there is clearly some connection between Mahayana and the Mahasamghaka and probably also with Sarvastivada, one might make the same claim for the Mahayana schools, as well. I think it would better to stick with a functional definition -- i.e., which sutras they use.
As for the historical material you added, I'm not sure how much of that is necessary to have here instead of in Early Buddhist schools. I'll leav it, but I'm open to further suggestions. - Nat Kraus e 09:45, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to The Emptiness That is Compassion: An Essay on Buddhist Ethics, Robert A. F. Thurman, 1980, as available on his Web site,
-- Munge 04:15, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned to see so much mythology being posted on such a reputable site as Wikipedia. I am a student at the School of Oriental and African Studies at London University, studying Buddhism and Tibetan, and I can tell you that the material on this page that relates to early Buddhism, Asoka and the Buddhist Councils is just perpetuating the assumptions and bad scholarship of an earlier period. There are some modern scholars still writing this sort of stuff, but it is now being seriously criticised, and a lot of it is simply not true. I haven't time to correct the article now as I'm studying for my end of year exams, but as you ask for sources so others can check work, I suggest anyone interested consults my lecturers at SOAS, Dr Sean Gaffney and Dr Douglas Osto, or re Asoka for example, reads the work of KR Norman. Karen Williams, 5th April 2005
FWBOarticle asked for confirmation of this; I am glad to confirm. In Progressive Stages Of Meditation On Emptiness, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rimpoche identifies the first stage as the Sravaka Meditation on No-Self (emptiness of self-nature). As a type of meditation on emptiness, one might argue that it is a mahayana practice. But the practice described is (as far as I'm aware) straightforward vipassana meditation.
Also: I have been taught that the difference between mahayana and hinayana concerns the aim of the practitioner, not the details of their technique, nor the source of the texts they rely on. A practitioner might apparently be doing vajrayana sadhanas; but if his aim is the removal of his own personal suffering, then his practice is actually hinayana. Similarly a meditator might be inspecting the skandhas, looking for traces of a permanent, truly-existing self; but if his aim is really the attainment of full Buddhahood, in order liberate all beings, then his practice is mahayana.
Also: I have an ancient photocopy of a detailed description of a set of 18 bodhisattva silas for upsakas (laymen), and one of those silas requires of the aspiring bodhisattva "Not to disparage the hinayana". I don't know what their origin is. They are a wonderful list; some of them are a little obscure, and need expanding (for example "Not to burn villages").
The term "hinayana" is sometimes glossed as "narrow path", in contradistinction to the "broad path" gloss for "mahayana". But I like this term for referring to the schools that follow the Pali suttas, never having come across it before; I think I shall adopt this usage. Good article. -- MrDemeanour 12:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Second, according to Mahayana and subsequent Vajrayana doctrine, "Hinayana" refers not to a sect or school of Buddhism but to a type of path to liberation which is contrasted with the path of the Bodhisattva.
This is a gentle issue - we use the term 'Hinayana' here to identify .. what? I don't think people consider 'Hinayana' generally as a sect or school, as much as a category, or division of Buddhism (remember the old 'Northern Buddhism'/'Southern Buddhism' terminology?!) So - (bear with me) let's rephrase the above to:
Second, according to Mahayana and subsequent Vajrayana doctrine, "Hinayana" refers not to division of Buddhism but to a type of path to liberation which is contrasted with the path of the Bodhisattva.
Now, the problem here (which is what I was getting to) is that we are now using two terms (Mahayana, Vajrayana) that popularly divide Buddhism, and then we appropriate 'doctrine' to those terms - both of which are also types of path to liberation or more specifically, vehicles to liberation - according to etymology! So IMO, this specific argument against Hinayana needs to be rewritten or dropped.
I feel it may be more strong to argue that the terms Hinayana/Mahayana/Vajrayana as divisions of Buddhism have been traditionally used on the basis of what texts are accepted and what texts are not (this is how many schools of Buddhism are identified too, IIRC). The primary challenge/problem facing with this classificatory terminology is not so much that they are terms that refer to the path, but that the term Hinayana is not used reflexively - ie., by the division of Buddhists who accept only the Nikaya texts - the Pali canon ( to the point that they believe there is an inherent and explicit slur and bias when dividing Buddhism with these terms), which is half-wrapped into the first point of the paragraph in the article. IMO the divisions of Buddhism are better named Nikaya/Mahayana/Vajrayana as these terms are used reflexively.
Many commentors on Buddhism have used the term Hinayana to refer to Nikaya Buddhism. However, that term is now generally seen as flawed:
Nikaya Buddhism, which appears to have been coined by Professor Masatoshi Nagatomi of Harvard University, is an attempt to find the most neutral and accurate way of referring to this division of Buddhists. Note that Nikaya is also a term used by Theravadins to refer to a school or sect.
The term Sravakayana (literally, "hearer vehicle [or disciple's vehicle]") is also sometimes used for the same purpose.
Enough for the mo.. ( 20040302 11:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC))
Oppose merging with early Buddhist schools. Nikaya Buddhism is an attempt to classify Buddhist schools by content (literature, philosophy, praxis). "Early Buddhist schools" is, as the name implies, a historical description. To say "early Buddhist schools were all Nikaya schools" is a factual claim, while merging these two pages would make it into a tautology. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 22:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merging with early Buddhist schools NB is NOT EBS. However, there is possibly a merger with Sravakayana - though the latter also has distinct meanings within the Buddhist tradition. ( 20040302 15:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC))
I removed the last paragraph, because it gave a wrong interpretation on the nature of the second council and the origin of the Mahasanghikas. It is a common mistake on the origin of the Mahasanghika. Greetings, Sacca 07:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Possible criticism of the term Nikaya Buddhism is that the term is quite obscure and not well known, and the term itself isn't very clear in that it's not obvious from the term what is meant by it. When used, it is used by scholars only, and hasn't found adoption by any of the existing schools of Buddhism. Also the term 'Nikaya Buddhism' is just a replacement of the term Hinayana, which keeps in place the tendency to regard the seperate early schools as one form or type of Buddhism, while the groups themselves never used a term to refer to all groups together as one type of Buddhism, and didn't see themselves as representing a type of Buddhism. Labeling all the schools under one name was started by the Mahayana school, which invented the name Hinayana to distinghuish itself from the already existing schools. So in some ways the usage of the term 'Nikaya Buddhism' points to a Mahayana view of Buddhism, which is not supported by the early schools themselves. The term early buddhist schools does not fall subject to these criticisms.
Taken together, the two statments logically imply that Theravada is hinayana, or "closely corresponds" to hinayana. That implies that Theravada is inferior or perhaps "close to" inferior. Thus, before the article even gets to the TOC, it disparages the very doctrines and practices that Prof. Nagatomi was trying to respect. And the statement that the term Nikaya Buddhism was "derived from" the term hinayana is like saying that the term African-American was derived from the N word. The term Nikaya Buddhism was derived from a unique, common name for the texts that a large subset of past and present dharma practitioners regard as the complete and canonical word of Buddha. The term emerged from authors' and scholars' needs for an NPOV name for the practices and doctrines of dharma practictioners ("Buddhists") who do not accept the provenence of the Mahayana canon.
Cite? I doubt it. In any case, that would depend on what you believe such authors' "purpose" is. Nobody, to my knowledge, ever called their own practies "Śrāvakayāna".
Cite? Maybe, but as currently worded, this remark implies there is some particular sect whose formal or informal name includes the word Nikaya. If so, let's see an example: I wager the context will clear up any ambiguity.
Good try, heart in the right place. But, the term emerged from a real need to disambiguate two logically independent categories: 1) what did a given sect regard as canonical? and 2) what aspirations do you believe that a given sect pursued? Many scholars (and apparently some Mahayana practitioners) do not assume that there is complete correlation between 1) and 2). The term Nikaya Buddhism specifies something about 1) and nothing about 2). Thus, use of the term is not necessarily an attempt to "shift the attention" nor change the subject. Also, I question if those who equate hinayana with Theravada consider canonicity to be a "more neutral" issue than the merits of the Bodhisattva way.
This seems to be a nonsequitur. Hinayana isn't obvious either. Neither is Mahayana or dhammayana or pratekyabuddhayana or...
Nope. Nikaya Buddhism designates which texts a person accepts as canonical, and which parts a person does not accept. It certainly was not intended to satisfy various Mahayanists' and scholars' desires for a term that refers to aspirations toward becoming this or that type of Buddha.
-- munge 08:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
although it was probably done with a wholesome intention, still I need to point out that both Thurman and Dr. Nagatomi are Mahayanist. Turman was looking for the term (he's more Vajrayana - which nicely fits with the softer tone (but still belittling) of the Vajrayana. Nagatomi was the successor to a Buddhist Temple in Japan,a nd descends from a Buddhist family; his father was a Buddhist missionary in the USA. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/02.24/16-mm.html Greetings, Sacca 15:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Professor Masatoshi Shoshun Nagatomi was born on September 1, 1926, in the town of Kuroi, in Yamaguchi Prefecture in Western Japan, as the eldest son and presumed successor to the family Buddhist temple, belonging to the Jôdo Shinshû sect. Nagatomi Mas mastered virtually all the major languages relevant to the study of Buddhism and taught on Buddhism in all the areas where the religion is found. In the breadth of his approach to the study of Buddhism, Mas had no peers.
As a young man Mas traveled the country with his father and grandfather, who were Buddhist priests, learning the sutras in preparation for the day when he would succeed to the headship of the temple. But life took a new direction when Mas and his parents moved to the United States, where his father became a Buddhist missionary. - from the article of Harvard Gazette Greetings, Sacca 15:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this section should be deleted. As it stands, it is apologistic editorial opinion: it is blatently not NPOV. To meet Wiki standards, it should include citations for each of the assertions.-- Stephen Hodge 14:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
What do you think is the correct procedure for this sort of thing? We have here a whole string of alternative names for roughly the same thing:
Are we supposed to have a separate article about each of them? Are we supposed to decide on one & redirect the rest?
One of the objections listed is to the idea of lumping them all together. I'd be interested to know if any leading scholar rejects the natural supposition that they are closer to each other than to Mahayana. The concept of Mahayana is rather more dubious, perhaps. Peter jackson ( talk) 16:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I forgot
Peter jackson ( talk) 12:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Another:
Peter jackson ( talk) 12:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
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This is the
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Nat, excellent work, and a good start for the area. ( 20040302 14:23, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)) I added 'often' to the derisory mark (I beg tolerance on this!), and I think that 'now-defunct' implies 'no longer functional', which can also mean 'no good for functioning', which could be interpreted as perjorative. Maybe removed is okay, but we could also use something like 'now-inactive'? ( 20040302 14:27, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC))
ah, Mahayanan reading of sutras is that Hinayanan path is something to be avoided. Tibetan actually takes three wheel approach where they claim to practice all three vehcile in one. If any existing Mahayanan actually claim that Mahayananan can follow Hinayanan practice, let me know. FWBOarticle 05:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The 18,000 verse perfection of wisdom sutra (a Madhyamaka Mahayana sutra) states: Bodhisattvas should practice all paths - whatever is a path of a sravaka, a pratyeka or a Buddha - and should know all paths. ( 20040302)
I'm uncomfortable with some of the edits you added recently, FWBOarticle. You introduced a new definition, "a general term for those schools of Buddhism that arose out of dispute in 2nd Buddhist council (383 BC). In time, up to 18 schools arose, the only remaining one today being Theravada school." The problem with this is that not all of the Nikaya schools arose out of the second council. Theravada didn't appear until around the time of the third council. (as for there being 18 of them -- we list 27 on schools of Buddhism -- maybe there were 18 in ancient India) One could say that Theravada came out of the second council indirectly, but, given that there is clearly some connection between Mahayana and the Mahasamghaka and probably also with Sarvastivada, one might make the same claim for the Mahayana schools, as well. I think it would better to stick with a functional definition -- i.e., which sutras they use.
As for the historical material you added, I'm not sure how much of that is necessary to have here instead of in Early Buddhist schools. I'll leav it, but I'm open to further suggestions. - Nat Kraus e 09:45, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to The Emptiness That is Compassion: An Essay on Buddhist Ethics, Robert A. F. Thurman, 1980, as available on his Web site,
-- Munge 04:15, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned to see so much mythology being posted on such a reputable site as Wikipedia. I am a student at the School of Oriental and African Studies at London University, studying Buddhism and Tibetan, and I can tell you that the material on this page that relates to early Buddhism, Asoka and the Buddhist Councils is just perpetuating the assumptions and bad scholarship of an earlier period. There are some modern scholars still writing this sort of stuff, but it is now being seriously criticised, and a lot of it is simply not true. I haven't time to correct the article now as I'm studying for my end of year exams, but as you ask for sources so others can check work, I suggest anyone interested consults my lecturers at SOAS, Dr Sean Gaffney and Dr Douglas Osto, or re Asoka for example, reads the work of KR Norman. Karen Williams, 5th April 2005
FWBOarticle asked for confirmation of this; I am glad to confirm. In Progressive Stages Of Meditation On Emptiness, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rimpoche identifies the first stage as the Sravaka Meditation on No-Self (emptiness of self-nature). As a type of meditation on emptiness, one might argue that it is a mahayana practice. But the practice described is (as far as I'm aware) straightforward vipassana meditation.
Also: I have been taught that the difference between mahayana and hinayana concerns the aim of the practitioner, not the details of their technique, nor the source of the texts they rely on. A practitioner might apparently be doing vajrayana sadhanas; but if his aim is the removal of his own personal suffering, then his practice is actually hinayana. Similarly a meditator might be inspecting the skandhas, looking for traces of a permanent, truly-existing self; but if his aim is really the attainment of full Buddhahood, in order liberate all beings, then his practice is mahayana.
Also: I have an ancient photocopy of a detailed description of a set of 18 bodhisattva silas for upsakas (laymen), and one of those silas requires of the aspiring bodhisattva "Not to disparage the hinayana". I don't know what their origin is. They are a wonderful list; some of them are a little obscure, and need expanding (for example "Not to burn villages").
The term "hinayana" is sometimes glossed as "narrow path", in contradistinction to the "broad path" gloss for "mahayana". But I like this term for referring to the schools that follow the Pali suttas, never having come across it before; I think I shall adopt this usage. Good article. -- MrDemeanour 12:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Second, according to Mahayana and subsequent Vajrayana doctrine, "Hinayana" refers not to a sect or school of Buddhism but to a type of path to liberation which is contrasted with the path of the Bodhisattva.
This is a gentle issue - we use the term 'Hinayana' here to identify .. what? I don't think people consider 'Hinayana' generally as a sect or school, as much as a category, or division of Buddhism (remember the old 'Northern Buddhism'/'Southern Buddhism' terminology?!) So - (bear with me) let's rephrase the above to:
Second, according to Mahayana and subsequent Vajrayana doctrine, "Hinayana" refers not to division of Buddhism but to a type of path to liberation which is contrasted with the path of the Bodhisattva.
Now, the problem here (which is what I was getting to) is that we are now using two terms (Mahayana, Vajrayana) that popularly divide Buddhism, and then we appropriate 'doctrine' to those terms - both of which are also types of path to liberation or more specifically, vehicles to liberation - according to etymology! So IMO, this specific argument against Hinayana needs to be rewritten or dropped.
I feel it may be more strong to argue that the terms Hinayana/Mahayana/Vajrayana as divisions of Buddhism have been traditionally used on the basis of what texts are accepted and what texts are not (this is how many schools of Buddhism are identified too, IIRC). The primary challenge/problem facing with this classificatory terminology is not so much that they are terms that refer to the path, but that the term Hinayana is not used reflexively - ie., by the division of Buddhists who accept only the Nikaya texts - the Pali canon ( to the point that they believe there is an inherent and explicit slur and bias when dividing Buddhism with these terms), which is half-wrapped into the first point of the paragraph in the article. IMO the divisions of Buddhism are better named Nikaya/Mahayana/Vajrayana as these terms are used reflexively.
Many commentors on Buddhism have used the term Hinayana to refer to Nikaya Buddhism. However, that term is now generally seen as flawed:
Nikaya Buddhism, which appears to have been coined by Professor Masatoshi Nagatomi of Harvard University, is an attempt to find the most neutral and accurate way of referring to this division of Buddhists. Note that Nikaya is also a term used by Theravadins to refer to a school or sect.
The term Sravakayana (literally, "hearer vehicle [or disciple's vehicle]") is also sometimes used for the same purpose.
Enough for the mo.. ( 20040302 11:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC))
Oppose merging with early Buddhist schools. Nikaya Buddhism is an attempt to classify Buddhist schools by content (literature, philosophy, praxis). "Early Buddhist schools" is, as the name implies, a historical description. To say "early Buddhist schools were all Nikaya schools" is a factual claim, while merging these two pages would make it into a tautology. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 22:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merging with early Buddhist schools NB is NOT EBS. However, there is possibly a merger with Sravakayana - though the latter also has distinct meanings within the Buddhist tradition. ( 20040302 15:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC))
I removed the last paragraph, because it gave a wrong interpretation on the nature of the second council and the origin of the Mahasanghikas. It is a common mistake on the origin of the Mahasanghika. Greetings, Sacca 07:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Possible criticism of the term Nikaya Buddhism is that the term is quite obscure and not well known, and the term itself isn't very clear in that it's not obvious from the term what is meant by it. When used, it is used by scholars only, and hasn't found adoption by any of the existing schools of Buddhism. Also the term 'Nikaya Buddhism' is just a replacement of the term Hinayana, which keeps in place the tendency to regard the seperate early schools as one form or type of Buddhism, while the groups themselves never used a term to refer to all groups together as one type of Buddhism, and didn't see themselves as representing a type of Buddhism. Labeling all the schools under one name was started by the Mahayana school, which invented the name Hinayana to distinghuish itself from the already existing schools. So in some ways the usage of the term 'Nikaya Buddhism' points to a Mahayana view of Buddhism, which is not supported by the early schools themselves. The term early buddhist schools does not fall subject to these criticisms.
Taken together, the two statments logically imply that Theravada is hinayana, or "closely corresponds" to hinayana. That implies that Theravada is inferior or perhaps "close to" inferior. Thus, before the article even gets to the TOC, it disparages the very doctrines and practices that Prof. Nagatomi was trying to respect. And the statement that the term Nikaya Buddhism was "derived from" the term hinayana is like saying that the term African-American was derived from the N word. The term Nikaya Buddhism was derived from a unique, common name for the texts that a large subset of past and present dharma practitioners regard as the complete and canonical word of Buddha. The term emerged from authors' and scholars' needs for an NPOV name for the practices and doctrines of dharma practictioners ("Buddhists") who do not accept the provenence of the Mahayana canon.
Cite? I doubt it. In any case, that would depend on what you believe such authors' "purpose" is. Nobody, to my knowledge, ever called their own practies "Śrāvakayāna".
Cite? Maybe, but as currently worded, this remark implies there is some particular sect whose formal or informal name includes the word Nikaya. If so, let's see an example: I wager the context will clear up any ambiguity.
Good try, heart in the right place. But, the term emerged from a real need to disambiguate two logically independent categories: 1) what did a given sect regard as canonical? and 2) what aspirations do you believe that a given sect pursued? Many scholars (and apparently some Mahayana practitioners) do not assume that there is complete correlation between 1) and 2). The term Nikaya Buddhism specifies something about 1) and nothing about 2). Thus, use of the term is not necessarily an attempt to "shift the attention" nor change the subject. Also, I question if those who equate hinayana with Theravada consider canonicity to be a "more neutral" issue than the merits of the Bodhisattva way.
This seems to be a nonsequitur. Hinayana isn't obvious either. Neither is Mahayana or dhammayana or pratekyabuddhayana or...
Nope. Nikaya Buddhism designates which texts a person accepts as canonical, and which parts a person does not accept. It certainly was not intended to satisfy various Mahayanists' and scholars' desires for a term that refers to aspirations toward becoming this or that type of Buddha.
-- munge 08:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
although it was probably done with a wholesome intention, still I need to point out that both Thurman and Dr. Nagatomi are Mahayanist. Turman was looking for the term (he's more Vajrayana - which nicely fits with the softer tone (but still belittling) of the Vajrayana. Nagatomi was the successor to a Buddhist Temple in Japan,a nd descends from a Buddhist family; his father was a Buddhist missionary in the USA. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/02.24/16-mm.html Greetings, Sacca 15:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Professor Masatoshi Shoshun Nagatomi was born on September 1, 1926, in the town of Kuroi, in Yamaguchi Prefecture in Western Japan, as the eldest son and presumed successor to the family Buddhist temple, belonging to the Jôdo Shinshû sect. Nagatomi Mas mastered virtually all the major languages relevant to the study of Buddhism and taught on Buddhism in all the areas where the religion is found. In the breadth of his approach to the study of Buddhism, Mas had no peers.
As a young man Mas traveled the country with his father and grandfather, who were Buddhist priests, learning the sutras in preparation for the day when he would succeed to the headship of the temple. But life took a new direction when Mas and his parents moved to the United States, where his father became a Buddhist missionary. - from the article of Harvard Gazette Greetings, Sacca 15:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this section should be deleted. As it stands, it is apologistic editorial opinion: it is blatently not NPOV. To meet Wiki standards, it should include citations for each of the assertions.-- Stephen Hodge 14:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
What do you think is the correct procedure for this sort of thing? We have here a whole string of alternative names for roughly the same thing:
Are we supposed to have a separate article about each of them? Are we supposed to decide on one & redirect the rest?
One of the objections listed is to the idea of lumping them all together. I'd be interested to know if any leading scholar rejects the natural supposition that they are closer to each other than to Mahayana. The concept of Mahayana is rather more dubious, perhaps. Peter jackson ( talk) 16:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I forgot
Peter jackson ( talk) 12:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Another:
Peter jackson ( talk) 12:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
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