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Someone, using Babinger as a source for their own claims, wrote that "some sources say the Wallachians slaughtered a great number of Turks, while others say Ottoman losses were minimal." Neither Babinger nor McNally/Florescu say any such thing. Babinger says, "The entire skirmish, in which many camels, mules, and horses were killed, had no significant results." He means it was not a strategically decisive battle in one way or another, and that statement has little to do with the losses. McNally and Florescu find that a janissary who actually witnessed the skirmish says losses were heavy on both sides. Several sources claim Ottoman losses were heavier, although that certainly isn't the case proportionally speaking and probably refers also to Ottoman wounded (who surely contributed to the process of spreading the bubonic plague). But what Babinger was referring to was that it is not certain that this battle was the main factor in Mehmed's retreat from Tirgoviste, despite his original plan to attack the capital. Babinger, who was writing in the 1950s before Romanian history was even a seriously considered subject by Western historians (he was an early exception, to be sure), notes that Mehmed's planned attack on Tirgoviste and direct conquest of Wallachia failed and forced him to rely on his backup plan of installing Radu, but without coming up with a sure answer as to the decisive factor, maintains that no particular battle was the decisive reason why. As McNally and Florescu were writing decades later and about Vlad as their main subject, their more detailed and more thoroughly researched (about this particular subject anyway) account finds that it was Vlad's germ warfare mixed with the psychological effect of his tactics that compelled Mehmed to retreat.
The reasons for the Dracula victory have been demonstrated by McNally and Florescu, but the reasons why it was a phyrric victory have not been sufficiently explored. Babinger brings up an important point when he notes that after the sultan's retreat Dracula withdraw part of his army to Moldavia and this imperiled his domestic defenses, but does not seem to realize this is because Stephen III attacked Hungarian-Wallachian-held Chilia after the sultan retreated. He mentions this skirmish as if it happened beforehand, and doesn't pay it much mind. McNally and Florescu find that this happened on June 22 (two days after the sultan decided to retreat). The combined force of several thousand (one source mentions 7000) of Dracula's men and the Hungarian garrison there compelled Stephen and the Ottoman Navy to lift the siege by June 28, or at least that is when it was reported. During this time, Dracula had to resist Mehmed with his dwindling forces as Mehmed's army was heading east to Braila. Mehmed writes of one Turahanoglu Omer Bey crushing Dracula's domestic forces at this point, but this must have been before a Dracula victory at the town of Buzau over one Evrenos Pasha, which McNally and Florescu say was the last military encounter between the two armies. The Ottoman victory therefore took place between Tirgoviste and Buzau sometime in between June 22 and June 26, and the Buzau battle was a failed siege after that.
I personally think the number of 200,000 captured Wallachian cattle and horses is two high, but it must be noted that Turkish sources seem to have exaggerated the number of Ottoman troops even more than Byzantine sources. One Turkish historian mentions 300,000 troops. Since 90,000-100,000 is a more realistic estimate, the number of cattle and horses taken (almost certainly during the above-mentioned time between the Ottoman retreat from Tirgoviste and the unsuccessful siege of Buzau) is probably closer to around 40,000-60,000. In any event, Babinger notes that the number is "said to have" been 200,000 cattle and horses, not that it was.
What neither Babinger, nor McNally/Florescu discuss, but what is important to understanding the Vlad-Mehmed battle's place in history, is that Stephen's attack on Chilia ensured that Vlad's victory over Mehmed would be a phyrric one by forcing Vlad to divert his resources to Moldavia, but the failure of Stephen's Turkish-supported siege would leave a power vacuum in the region that would not be settled until he defeated Hungarian, Wallachian (under Radu), and finally Ottoman forces in battles over the unsettled Chilia question. Shield2 04:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
"Dracula, who had converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism in order to gain support from Corvinus, asked the Hungarian king for assistance." This is not exactly accurate. McNally and Florescu reveal that when he asked Corvinus for assistance, he indicated that he was interested in converting to Catholicism and marrying a member of the royal family. However, he did not actually do so until years later to get out of imprisonment.
Stop adding such huge Ottoman numbers! 90,000 men was a complete impossibility to gather during that age. The biggest army to gather for such battle was 20,000 or less, the Turks has always been in constant war, and their numbers were few, since they lost many soldeirs after so many battles!
I have decided to pass the article. I think that is very well written and well cited. The only thing I have to say against the article is that the after math section has no cits and I recommend that it is fixed. ANyway once again well done on the article. Kyriakos 22:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a statement with an ambiguous reference in the article. It reads: Historians credit Dracula as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a 'deadly artistic way'. I have three objections to this. First of all, I really don't care about the deadly artisticity of using gunpowder, nor do I think it is appropriate for Wikipedia to dveleve into such fantasy. Second, the aim of this article is hardly to bring an evaluation of how artistic Dracula was in his deadly methods but to explain events surrounding a battle. And third, not only the reference itself is ambiguous, but also it is at most a personal view of someone. So I propose the deletion of that phrase. In addition, I wonder, why on Earth my remarks in th edit page are being removed????????? 74.66.233.1 15:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I made several corrections throughout the article as well. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. As a side note, I'd recommend that more sources be added to the "Aftermath and legacy" section, and that the long quotes in the "Battle" section be condensed some. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 09:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Reading 'Ţepeş' all over the place looks just as unnatural as if the article on Edward the Confessor should constantly mention 'the Confessor': "The Confessor was born in 1003..." Likewise, 'Ţepeş' is not a surname, and it was not even a name he ever used. His name was Vlad Drăculea, or Vlad III. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.184.218.214 ( talk) 10:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Moved this from the article as it has been marked as unreferenced since 2008. AIRcorn (talk) 12:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Radu managed to convince the Wallachians that paying the Jizya (tax on non-Muslims) and having him as their leader would be in their best interest. Vlad Ţepeş was abandoned and fled to Transylvania, where he was imprisoned by Corvinus for 12 years based on a forged letter that described him as asking the sultan for forgiveness and for an alliance against Hungary. He was released in 1474 and was soon on his way to Bosnia with a Hungarian army, where he captured towns and fortresses and impaled 8,000 Turks. Stephen of Moldavia had managed to capture Chilia and Akkerman and managed to defend them against the Ottomans at the Battle of Vaslui. The two cousins forged an alliance and in 1476, conquered Wallachia together; however, in December 1476, Vlad Ţepeş died in battle against the Ottomans. Radu had died of syphilis a year earlier (1475).
The conflict ended all Ottoman ambitions of annexing Wallachia to the empire. The Wallachian success left its mark in Romanian tradition and literature, as well as in other nations of the time.
It is said in the article that the Ottomans invaded the city of Turnu Severin. I'm a total newbie when it comes to Wallachian geography, but aren't those two separate cities? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjaroszewski ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
He wasn't refusing to pay the jizya, since that is a per-head tax on non-Muslims within the Ottoman Empire (or other Muslim states) proper; the Ottomans were treating Wallachia as a client state/tributary nation, not having annexed it, and thus were demanding tribute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.223.218 ( talk) 10:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
There have been tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of attacks during the night in history. Can we rename this article to something less vague? 117.56.215.14 ( talk) 01:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello All, The last sentence in the third paragraph, "Horrified, the Sultan and his troops retreated." is nonfactual. It certainly defies historic accounts of the events. I would like to see the evidence supporting this claim, if any exists. If not, I would like it removed as it desecrates the memroy of a great king and sultan who accomplished much thought to be impossbile till then. - Dominator1453 ( talk) 13:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
I initially removed the tag, but actually agree that it should remain. I removed it because I felt that the revision cleared up the previous reasons why the tag was placed - but I think now the main reason it should be there is that there is no context for the assertion that the "halt in the Ottoman advance would prove to be brief." According to the sources it was some thirteen years later that Vlad marched on Bosnia, resulting in an Ottoman counterattack on Wallachia ultimately culminating in Vlad's death. @ Igoldste:, if we took out that last sentence of the lede do you think we could remove the tag? The rest of the lede is based on already-sourced elements within the article. <> Alt lys er svunnet hen ( talk) 23:42, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
This article has always stroke me as an unashamed hagiography to Vlad Tepes and somehow it has been a popular material for the Wikipedia's opening page for years. Out of curiosity I checked the source for the "deadly artistic use of the gunpowder" remark, which is listed as Joseph Geringer's book "Staggering the turks" in the article. The provided link by Wikipedia to crimelibrary.com is dead. A Google search on "Staggering the turks" title brings either this Wikipedia page or other sites which are copied from this page. Amazon has two books by an author named Joseph Geringer, one is "Drown the stage with tears" the other is titled "Near to me". Likewise in Google books. A search on Joseph Geringer name brings several people on LinkedIn, one of which is a person living in the Chicago area, considers himself an administrator and professional writer, lists the two books I mentioned above as his creative achievements and also states that (he) "wrote a series of deeply researched Internet books for the noted Crime Library". The only post secondary education he lists is his attendance to Saint Xavier university between 1973 and 1975. He does not mention anything about the title "Staggering the turks". So in short:
- Even if there ever was a source for the "deadly artistic" remark, it appears not to be a published book or peer reviewed historical article but just a piece written for a website.
- Even if there ever was a source for the "deadly artistic" remark it does not seem to exist anymore even over the internet.
- The supposed author of that piece neither makes a claim to nor lists any credentials to qualify him as a historian in his online vita.
Therefore there seems to be no verifiable basis to this article's statement: Historians credit Vlad Ţepeş as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a "deadly artistic way". Does such a thing matter to Wikipedia editors?
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This article uses S-cedilla and T-cedilla, move it to S-comma and T-comma. 93.136.83.252 ( talk) 00:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
What do reliable sources say about the outcome of the battle? Borsoka ( talk) 03:19, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
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Bruhsmillah ( talk) 06:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC) Result: Wallachian victory, sources: https://www.annalesfsu.ro/siteeng/Tome_XX/9IOncescu.pdf
Until the beginning of the 18th century the Romanians won, in the course of time, a series of victories against the Ottoman Empire (1394-Rovine, 1462-Târgoviște, 1475-Vaslui, 1595-Călugăreni) but winning these battles did not mean that they won the war against the Ottomans. I'm not sure if that's enough to change the infobox. What I will say, based on the pictures in the article, is that Vlad won the battle of mustaches. Leaving this open for other input. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 10:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
@ ElDiabloChico, please see above for the reasoning for my reverts. Please discuss per WP:BRD. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 19:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The Wallachians have won, most sources claim this and also all the wikipedia pages in foreign languages. Mehmet left Wallachia so it can't surely be an ottoman victory either. Marlon1505 ( talk) 17:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
The reference cited in the version above, Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad the Impaler (edited by Kurt Treptow) says In all likelihood, the unsuccessful night attack on the Sultan's camp marked Dracula's defeat . . The failure of the night attack made it clear that Dracula's forces were no match for the power of the Imperial army
.
It was clearly a Wallachian win, Vlad the III won in the field ElDiabloChico ( talk) 19:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
My source is [1] ElDiabloChico ( talk) 01:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
You didn't read the sources
ElDiabloChico ( talk) 14:01, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
References
🇷🇴 46.97.176.14 ( talk) 15:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
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restul= Walachian victory Bold text 46.97.176.244 ( talk) 03:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Sources say: Vlad informed Matthias Corvinus about the military action in a letter on 11 February 1462. Vlad said he killed "20,000+ Turks and Bulgarians not counting those who were burned in their own house .."
The sources doesn't say "Christian" Bulgarians were spared. Here are book names: You can look them in google books in page no#
1. Babinger, Franz (1978). Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-09900-2. (p. 204)
2. Treptow, Kurt W. (2000). Vlad III Dracula: The Life and Times of the Historical Dracula. The Center of Romanian Studies. ISBN 978-973-98392-2-8. (page 124)
The
Template:Infobox military conflict says: Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.
thus, it isn't appropriate to put this. Also if the ultimate goal of Wallachians were to assassinate Mehmed II, then how is this a victory since they're the attacker side? If both sides claimed victory, then it should either "Both sides claims victory" or remove it totally.
Beshogur (
talk) 12:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Is this title a commonname? I see some sources call it a battle as well. When did the title become like this? Anyone has an idea? Beshogur ( talk) 15:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi all. While digging into the history of this article, I couldn't help but notice that this article, Mehmed II and Vlad the Impaler have variations on how the war started. Curiously, this well produced YouTube video from a respected creator includes an Ottoman retaliatory raid for Vlad III's support for Steven III of Moldavia, which is put forward as the primary reason why Vlad refused to pay tribute and submit to Ottoman vassalage, and was therefore his de-facto casus belli. This info doesn't exist in the articles here, and although Youtube is obviously not a reliable source, I am interested in where they sourced that information. Does anyone have an original source? Regardless, all three articles explore the same conflict, so we should look into better synchronising their perspectives of the war. SuperTah ( talk) 12:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Bütün Osmanlı kaynakları ve Osmanlı tarihçileri bu savaşın Osmanlı zaferi olduğunu söylüyor, Mehmed geri çekildi diyorsunuz ama Mehmed'in ordusu Eflak'ın başkenti targoviste'ye kadar giriyor geri çekildi derken neyi kastediyorsunuz? Ömür boyu orada kalacak değil ya. Mehmed Vlad'ın planından casuslar aracılığı ile haberdar oluyor ve sahte karargah kurup ordusunu düzene sokuyor. Eflak ordusu saldırdığı sırada Uzunçarşılı ve birçok tarihçi Osmanlı ordusunda sadece bir kaç at ve deve kaybedildiğini söylüyor. Vlad canını zor kurtararak kaçıyor Mehmed peşinden adamlar gönderiyor. Bu savaş nasıl sonuçsuz olabilir acaba? Keremmardaa ( talk) 14:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
Kansas Bear You claim that the war was inconclusive. The sources I have given are Halil İnalcık (he is the greatest historian and scientist in the field of Ottoman history). And he says that Vlad was punished in their war. John Freely (an American Physicist and Historian) bluntly says that Mehmed defeated Vlad. And there are no arguments to claim a Wallachian victory. Wallachian army and Vlad's aim is to kill Mehmed, this is the plan of the war, but they cannot succeed. And the war cannot achieve its purpose. When the Wallachian army started to disperse during the night war, it began to retreat and fled unevenly. Mehmed sent Mihaloğlu Ali Bey after them and brought a lot of Wallachian captives. After the war, Mehmed enters the Targovişte castle and appoints Radu as the ruler and starts the Ottoman domination in Wallachia, which will last for 450 years. Mehmed reaches the goal of his expedition and returns to his country. I don't think any source will write that Mehmed withdrew after the war. He ended the expedition when Mehmed conquered Wallachia and left Radu as the ruler. What is Vlad's gain in this war and how can it be a victory? Keremmaarda ( talk) 23:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
I see this battle article is a place of edit war to claim Wallachian or Ottoman victory. I suggest first we need collect and provide reliable academic historical sources about the battle. By Romanian historians, by Turkish historians, other historians.
For example I found this in Hungarian history source:
https://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0011/828.html (fast google translate, so not perfect)
Mehmed wanted to counter this audacity by example, and therefore, returning victorious from Asia Minor in the fall of 1461, he prepared the most intensively for the campaign in Wallachia throughout the winter, and at the end of the spring of 1462, he suddenly with an army of 250,000 men,[7] magnificently prepared, amply equipped with siege weapons and fired up for bloody revenge attacked Wallachia, against which Stephen, the Voivode of Moldavia, advanced offensively on his orders. Having just returned from the parliament in May in Buda[8], Vlad was shocked to learn of the imminent danger to his country and, in accordance with the alliance treaty, he immediately asked for help from King Matthias, however, realizing that he could not expect it to arrive anytime soon, he divided his army of about 10,000 men, which he had quickly assembled, into two parts. He sent the smaller part against the Moldavian voivode, while with the larger part he wanted to go against the Sultan himself. But he soon became convinced that he could not successfully resist such a large force on a flat field, so he came up with another solution. He gave the order that all the cattle should always be driven up from the enemy towards the mountains, and that the food should either be hidden or destroyed, after which the women and children should also gradually move up into the mountains, while the men all grabbed weapons, he to join him. With the people gathered around him, he then hid in the woods, stalking the Turkish army from a distance, carefully avoiding a decisive clash with it, but where he came across smaller enemy groups, he ruthlessly cut them to pieces.
The Turkish army, finding no significant enemy anywhere in front of them, quickly trusted themselves and did not think much about security regulations. He wanted to use this to Vlad's advantage, and on one night he carried out a raid against the Turkish main camp with ten, others say seven thousand horsemen with the determined intention of bringing the sultan under his power. The skilfully executed raid caused great panic in the Turkish camp at the beginning, but neither the capture of the Sultan nor the definitive defeat of the Turkish army was succeeded, and Vlad had to leave as soon as possible, unless he wanted him and his men to get into the worst trouble. It was a good lesson for both of them; the Turks were more careful from now on, and Vlad allowed his opponent to go on unharmed. Arriving at Targoviste, the capital of the country at the time, he came across the place where Vlad had so cruelly executed the prisoners brought back from last year's campaign. On the half-hour-long and quarter-hour-wide field, nearly 20,000 people, men, women and children, were drawn on skewers, among them Hamza Beg on the highest pole, wrapped in crimson and velvet.
The sultan continued his advance for some time, while here and there he defeated small groups of Wallachian who acted more boldly after the departure of Vlad, who rushed to the aid of the Moldavian group, but then, in order to settle the conflict over the island of Lesbos, he began to retreat with the bulk of his army at the beginning of autumn, taking countless prisoners and taking with him 200,000 horses and cattle.[9]
A part of the Turkish army, under the command of Ali Bey, stayed behind with the Sultan's favor, Vlad's younger brother Radul. The Vlachs, who had themselves unsatisfied Vlad's abominable cruelties, slowly all defected to Radul, while Vlad, who had reached the Moldavian front and successfully confronted Voivod Stephen, who was besieging Kilia, was forced to flee to Hungary, where he was completely abandoned.[10] Before that, he sought the favor of the Sultan, to appease whom he promised to acquire Transylvania for him, from where he could easily lay his hands on all of Hungary. But the sultan didn't want to hear from the treacherous Vlad anymore, so he again turned to the Hungarians for help.[11] OrionNimrod ( talk) 20:04, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
It was empty, and he left shortly afterwards. Mehmed II did not manage to annex Wallachia as he intended, and Vlad still paid no tribute. Nobody achieved their objectives.Mehmed didn't wanted to annex Wallachia. And no doubt the campaign was a victory for Mehmed, however this page is written in such style that it is about the whole campaign, not this particular battle. We lack about a campaign article separate from this. Beshogur ( talk) 13:00, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Beshogur ( talk) 19:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Super DromaeosaurusThe source you gave does not say that Mehmed retreated after the war. Keremmaarda ( talk) 19:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
How many times do I really have to tell you?I will refrain from discussing with you. We are not in the street so do not talk to me like it.
This article only mentions the "Targovishte night attack"(Mehmed II left Târgoviște one day after the night attack, you're implying the next day is not within the scope of this article) yet still argue that it was an Ottoman victory because Vlad ended up leaving Wallachia. Which he did in November (read Vlad the Impaler#Imprisonment in Hungary). Please clarify your position. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 19:43, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that sources typically use the term "night attack" in lowercase. Alternate proposals did not achieve consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Night Attack at Târgoviște → Night attack at Târgoviște – Virtually no sources capitalize "night attack" [16]. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 20:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Frankly I cannot understand just why is this article so continously problematic.
Keremmaarda, you reverted me
[21] invoking
WP:WPNOTRS over primary sources. No primary sources are cited on the article, they are secondary sources. We aren't for example citing Leonardo Tocco's letter to the duke of Milan, we are citing an author who is analysing the letter and its contents, that constitutes a secondary source and they're the most desired source in Wikipedia. You claim that It is a political tactic to show your own army as strong to the enemy army.
This is speculation of yours unless backed by a source describing this as a possibility, and in any case this would need to go attributed ("X person said that...") unless it is proven that this is the majoritary view in academia, which I find unlikely. May I also note you're removing reliably cited information from the infobox. The source you've cited seems inferior to the ones currently present in the article. We have contemporary figures citing certain numbers, including Mehmed II himself but not only, and Akyol İbrahim and Eliaçık Muhittin take priority? They do not mention the so-far speculation you've mentioned. They also do not cite any source, other than "Osmanlı Ansiklopedisi", which I doubt is particularly exhaustive on this period of Ottoman history considering it likely covers the totality of it. I also doubt that İbrahim and Muhittin are the only people having recently (as in, the last two centuries) talked about this so as to mention their one particular source as "Modern source" in parentheses in the infobox. Finally, currently the article states that the Ottomans 10,000 to 15,000 losses. If we were to stick by the source you've cited, we would be implying the Ottomans lost 66%-100% of their army, which is clearly not true.
I find your apportation unexhaustive and highly problematic. You've replaced several secondary sources citing primary ones for a single secondary source which does not cite any primary source. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 01:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
period sourcesare. I can also find sources giving random numbers for the Ottoman army. In fact, none of the ones I've found give such a low figure. I've looked up "Night attack at Târgoviște" in Google Scholar [22], here is what sources that I could access not written by Romanians (I shouldn't even be excluding them because I have no reason to, but seemingly you have a problem with them) say. Kaplan 2011 says 250,000 (p. 34), Treptow 2022 says 250,000 as well, Light 2016 also says 250,000 (p. 42). Miller 2005 describes the Wallachian army as "badly outnumbered" (p. 95), very different from the fringe claim that the Wallachian army was somehow twice as big as the Ottoman one. I've gone through 5 result pages, with 10 each, and not a single source is even close to 15,000, which I remind contradicts all contemporary sources.
At the end of April Mehmed ii left Istanbul in order to take personal com mand of the army that was to punish Vlad and remove him from power alto gether.86 As usual, however, the news flowing through the various channels to Buda was manifold and difficult to check: some maintained that the sultan’goal was Wallachia, others thought he would attack Transylvania, while still others feared a campaign against Belgrade. Indeed, the diet that had been con voked to provide the money needed for the practical implementation of the agreements made with Frederick iii and Jiskra began to dissolve as the lords and nobles with lands in the southern regions left to protect their estates.87 What was certain were the impressive preparations made by the Ottomans on both land and water, with hundreds of river vessels heading for Vidin.88 Vo evode Vlad himself must have been under no illusions about the purpose of the Ottoman mobilization and so, as his forces were much inferior to those of the sultan, he resorted to the traditional scorched earth policy and relocated much of the population of his principality into the denselyforested areas of Wallachia. Because of a lack of money, all Matthias could do was send rein forcements by water to Belgrade,89 but it was evident that he would be unable to give Vlad much help. Besides imploring all the prelates, barons, and nobles of the realm to take up arms and go to Szeged, designated as the point of con centration, he also ordered the voevode of Transylvania to gather all nobles and nonnobles capable of taking the field and hurry to the help of Vlad, al though it is unlikely that major forces crossed the border.90 Some of the king’s councillors went so far as to state that it was a grave error not to have accepted the peace offer made by the Ottomans earlier. Despite some minor successes, Vlad proved unable to thwart the Ottoman invasion. By the beginning of July Mehmed ii had left Wallachia, entrusting its government to Vlad’s brother Radu as a vassal prince, under the supervision of Mihaloğlu Ali Bey. As rumours about the sultan’s intention to turn against Belgrade as soon as he had finished his Wallachian venture persisted,91 Matth ias finally went to Szeged in the first days of August. Then, evidently learning of the sultan’s departure for Istanbul and thence to Anatolia,92 he proceeded to Transylvania, where he was to spend the entire autumn.OrionNimrod ( talk) 17:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
It is not possible to provide logistical support for 250,000 peopleis your personal opinion.
It is an obvious fact that the number 15,000 is more modern and reliableis not only your personal opinion but also not an obvious fact.
They need food,yes
and Franz Babinger says that the Ottoman army reached 72 thousand people in 1476we are discussing the 1462 night attack though. You need sources explicitly saying that these higher estimations are unrealistic for X and Y reason. You cannot use a source for 1476 to talk about 1462. All of these violate WP:SYNTH and WP:OR.
I would remove the military losses of the Ottoman army and add that "military losses were insignificant, but many supply animals such as horses and seves died"you would then be POV-pushing because it is becoming apparent you're trying to belittle the losses of the Ottoman army. Chalkokondyles, Tursun Bey, Schiappa and Tommasi are all superior sources to the random source you've provided by virtue of being contemporary. In addition to that they're cited through several authors with just as much legitimacy all of which contradict this low number. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 22:52, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
It would be better than taking as a reference the exaggerated army numbers given by contemporary sources.WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You have no sources calling them exaggerated. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 11:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
They examine the military number, economic power and economic situation at that time. As a result, they estimate the army to be deployed in the campaign with an average data.there is none of that in your source. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 11:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
ABSTRACT In this study titled “The Culture and Literature in the era of Fatih Sultan Mehmet”, the influences of the conquest of Istanbul, which was a milestone for the Ottoman State in the transition period from Beylic to Empire, to the intellectual, cultural and the literary life of the Ottomans were studied.The scientific and cultural life was especially taken into consideration as a source feeding literature. The periods of Fatih Sultan Mehmet and Bayezid II constituted the transition period between the establishment of the Turkish literature and the classical era. As well as being a great statesman, Fatih Sultan Mehmet was a person protecting scholars and poets. There were a lot of scholars and poets around him. Istanbul became a significant culture and art center of East and West in the XV century as a result of his interest to science, art, culture and literature. In this study the importance given to science and scholars by Fatih Sultan Mehmet was discussed while the scholars of the period were being researched. Furthermore, education and educational institutions, libraries and Fatih Sultan Mehmet’s private library were all examined and so the richness of his library and his profound knowledge were introduced. The richness of Fatih Sultan Mehmet’s scientific and literary life accelerated the process of becoming classic of the Ottoman Turkish language. The Sufis, who made significant contributions to the Conquest of Istanbul, were under protection of Fatih Sultan Mehmet. In addition, they initialized to be institutionalized after the Conquest. During this period the cultural and literary relations with the Central Asia were developed, and scholars and poets were invited to Istanbul. In this period, the most important element making the literary life developed and enriched was literary surroundings. The gatherings of poets around Fatih Sultan Mehmet and the Grand Vizier Mahmut Pasha in Istanbul, Şehzade Bayezid in Amasya, Cem Sultan in Karaman and Ahmet Pasha in Bursa made the literary life active and enriched. More than 80 poets living in this period have been identified. 5 Moreover, compared to the previous periods there were significant increases in the translation and the compilation of scientific, intellectual, religious, literary, mystical works etc. All these great advances have been regarded as the preparatory phase of the great development of the Ottoman-Turkish culture and literature in the 16th century. Keywords: Ottoman, Fatih Sultan Mehmet, Istanbul, culture, literature, poet, work.OrionNimrod ( talk) 20:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Does he have an academic background in history? Dr. or Professor? Super Dromaeosaurus Keremmaarda ( talk) 20:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Someone, using Babinger as a source for their own claims, wrote that "some sources say the Wallachians slaughtered a great number of Turks, while others say Ottoman losses were minimal." Neither Babinger nor McNally/Florescu say any such thing. Babinger says, "The entire skirmish, in which many camels, mules, and horses were killed, had no significant results." He means it was not a strategically decisive battle in one way or another, and that statement has little to do with the losses. McNally and Florescu find that a janissary who actually witnessed the skirmish says losses were heavy on both sides. Several sources claim Ottoman losses were heavier, although that certainly isn't the case proportionally speaking and probably refers also to Ottoman wounded (who surely contributed to the process of spreading the bubonic plague). But what Babinger was referring to was that it is not certain that this battle was the main factor in Mehmed's retreat from Tirgoviste, despite his original plan to attack the capital. Babinger, who was writing in the 1950s before Romanian history was even a seriously considered subject by Western historians (he was an early exception, to be sure), notes that Mehmed's planned attack on Tirgoviste and direct conquest of Wallachia failed and forced him to rely on his backup plan of installing Radu, but without coming up with a sure answer as to the decisive factor, maintains that no particular battle was the decisive reason why. As McNally and Florescu were writing decades later and about Vlad as their main subject, their more detailed and more thoroughly researched (about this particular subject anyway) account finds that it was Vlad's germ warfare mixed with the psychological effect of his tactics that compelled Mehmed to retreat.
The reasons for the Dracula victory have been demonstrated by McNally and Florescu, but the reasons why it was a phyrric victory have not been sufficiently explored. Babinger brings up an important point when he notes that after the sultan's retreat Dracula withdraw part of his army to Moldavia and this imperiled his domestic defenses, but does not seem to realize this is because Stephen III attacked Hungarian-Wallachian-held Chilia after the sultan retreated. He mentions this skirmish as if it happened beforehand, and doesn't pay it much mind. McNally and Florescu find that this happened on June 22 (two days after the sultan decided to retreat). The combined force of several thousand (one source mentions 7000) of Dracula's men and the Hungarian garrison there compelled Stephen and the Ottoman Navy to lift the siege by June 28, or at least that is when it was reported. During this time, Dracula had to resist Mehmed with his dwindling forces as Mehmed's army was heading east to Braila. Mehmed writes of one Turahanoglu Omer Bey crushing Dracula's domestic forces at this point, but this must have been before a Dracula victory at the town of Buzau over one Evrenos Pasha, which McNally and Florescu say was the last military encounter between the two armies. The Ottoman victory therefore took place between Tirgoviste and Buzau sometime in between June 22 and June 26, and the Buzau battle was a failed siege after that.
I personally think the number of 200,000 captured Wallachian cattle and horses is two high, but it must be noted that Turkish sources seem to have exaggerated the number of Ottoman troops even more than Byzantine sources. One Turkish historian mentions 300,000 troops. Since 90,000-100,000 is a more realistic estimate, the number of cattle and horses taken (almost certainly during the above-mentioned time between the Ottoman retreat from Tirgoviste and the unsuccessful siege of Buzau) is probably closer to around 40,000-60,000. In any event, Babinger notes that the number is "said to have" been 200,000 cattle and horses, not that it was.
What neither Babinger, nor McNally/Florescu discuss, but what is important to understanding the Vlad-Mehmed battle's place in history, is that Stephen's attack on Chilia ensured that Vlad's victory over Mehmed would be a phyrric one by forcing Vlad to divert his resources to Moldavia, but the failure of Stephen's Turkish-supported siege would leave a power vacuum in the region that would not be settled until he defeated Hungarian, Wallachian (under Radu), and finally Ottoman forces in battles over the unsettled Chilia question. Shield2 04:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
"Dracula, who had converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism in order to gain support from Corvinus, asked the Hungarian king for assistance." This is not exactly accurate. McNally and Florescu reveal that when he asked Corvinus for assistance, he indicated that he was interested in converting to Catholicism and marrying a member of the royal family. However, he did not actually do so until years later to get out of imprisonment.
Stop adding such huge Ottoman numbers! 90,000 men was a complete impossibility to gather during that age. The biggest army to gather for such battle was 20,000 or less, the Turks has always been in constant war, and their numbers were few, since they lost many soldeirs after so many battles!
I have decided to pass the article. I think that is very well written and well cited. The only thing I have to say against the article is that the after math section has no cits and I recommend that it is fixed. ANyway once again well done on the article. Kyriakos 22:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a statement with an ambiguous reference in the article. It reads: Historians credit Dracula as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a 'deadly artistic way'. I have three objections to this. First of all, I really don't care about the deadly artisticity of using gunpowder, nor do I think it is appropriate for Wikipedia to dveleve into such fantasy. Second, the aim of this article is hardly to bring an evaluation of how artistic Dracula was in his deadly methods but to explain events surrounding a battle. And third, not only the reference itself is ambiguous, but also it is at most a personal view of someone. So I propose the deletion of that phrase. In addition, I wonder, why on Earth my remarks in th edit page are being removed????????? 74.66.233.1 15:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I made several corrections throughout the article as well. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. As a side note, I'd recommend that more sources be added to the "Aftermath and legacy" section, and that the long quotes in the "Battle" section be condensed some. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 09:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Reading 'Ţepeş' all over the place looks just as unnatural as if the article on Edward the Confessor should constantly mention 'the Confessor': "The Confessor was born in 1003..." Likewise, 'Ţepeş' is not a surname, and it was not even a name he ever used. His name was Vlad Drăculea, or Vlad III. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.184.218.214 ( talk) 10:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Moved this from the article as it has been marked as unreferenced since 2008. AIRcorn (talk) 12:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Radu managed to convince the Wallachians that paying the Jizya (tax on non-Muslims) and having him as their leader would be in their best interest. Vlad Ţepeş was abandoned and fled to Transylvania, where he was imprisoned by Corvinus for 12 years based on a forged letter that described him as asking the sultan for forgiveness and for an alliance against Hungary. He was released in 1474 and was soon on his way to Bosnia with a Hungarian army, where he captured towns and fortresses and impaled 8,000 Turks. Stephen of Moldavia had managed to capture Chilia and Akkerman and managed to defend them against the Ottomans at the Battle of Vaslui. The two cousins forged an alliance and in 1476, conquered Wallachia together; however, in December 1476, Vlad Ţepeş died in battle against the Ottomans. Radu had died of syphilis a year earlier (1475).
The conflict ended all Ottoman ambitions of annexing Wallachia to the empire. The Wallachian success left its mark in Romanian tradition and literature, as well as in other nations of the time.
It is said in the article that the Ottomans invaded the city of Turnu Severin. I'm a total newbie when it comes to Wallachian geography, but aren't those two separate cities? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjaroszewski ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
He wasn't refusing to pay the jizya, since that is a per-head tax on non-Muslims within the Ottoman Empire (or other Muslim states) proper; the Ottomans were treating Wallachia as a client state/tributary nation, not having annexed it, and thus were demanding tribute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.223.218 ( talk) 10:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
There have been tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of attacks during the night in history. Can we rename this article to something less vague? 117.56.215.14 ( talk) 01:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello All, The last sentence in the third paragraph, "Horrified, the Sultan and his troops retreated." is nonfactual. It certainly defies historic accounts of the events. I would like to see the evidence supporting this claim, if any exists. If not, I would like it removed as it desecrates the memroy of a great king and sultan who accomplished much thought to be impossbile till then. - Dominator1453 ( talk) 13:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
I initially removed the tag, but actually agree that it should remain. I removed it because I felt that the revision cleared up the previous reasons why the tag was placed - but I think now the main reason it should be there is that there is no context for the assertion that the "halt in the Ottoman advance would prove to be brief." According to the sources it was some thirteen years later that Vlad marched on Bosnia, resulting in an Ottoman counterattack on Wallachia ultimately culminating in Vlad's death. @ Igoldste:, if we took out that last sentence of the lede do you think we could remove the tag? The rest of the lede is based on already-sourced elements within the article. <> Alt lys er svunnet hen ( talk) 23:42, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
This article has always stroke me as an unashamed hagiography to Vlad Tepes and somehow it has been a popular material for the Wikipedia's opening page for years. Out of curiosity I checked the source for the "deadly artistic use of the gunpowder" remark, which is listed as Joseph Geringer's book "Staggering the turks" in the article. The provided link by Wikipedia to crimelibrary.com is dead. A Google search on "Staggering the turks" title brings either this Wikipedia page or other sites which are copied from this page. Amazon has two books by an author named Joseph Geringer, one is "Drown the stage with tears" the other is titled "Near to me". Likewise in Google books. A search on Joseph Geringer name brings several people on LinkedIn, one of which is a person living in the Chicago area, considers himself an administrator and professional writer, lists the two books I mentioned above as his creative achievements and also states that (he) "wrote a series of deeply researched Internet books for the noted Crime Library". The only post secondary education he lists is his attendance to Saint Xavier university between 1973 and 1975. He does not mention anything about the title "Staggering the turks". So in short:
- Even if there ever was a source for the "deadly artistic" remark, it appears not to be a published book or peer reviewed historical article but just a piece written for a website.
- Even if there ever was a source for the "deadly artistic" remark it does not seem to exist anymore even over the internet.
- The supposed author of that piece neither makes a claim to nor lists any credentials to qualify him as a historian in his online vita.
Therefore there seems to be no verifiable basis to this article's statement: Historians credit Vlad Ţepeş as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a "deadly artistic way". Does such a thing matter to Wikipedia editors?
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This article uses S-cedilla and T-cedilla, move it to S-comma and T-comma. 93.136.83.252 ( talk) 00:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
What do reliable sources say about the outcome of the battle? Borsoka ( talk) 03:19, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
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Bruhsmillah ( talk) 06:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC) Result: Wallachian victory, sources: https://www.annalesfsu.ro/siteeng/Tome_XX/9IOncescu.pdf
Until the beginning of the 18th century the Romanians won, in the course of time, a series of victories against the Ottoman Empire (1394-Rovine, 1462-Târgoviște, 1475-Vaslui, 1595-Călugăreni) but winning these battles did not mean that they won the war against the Ottomans. I'm not sure if that's enough to change the infobox. What I will say, based on the pictures in the article, is that Vlad won the battle of mustaches. Leaving this open for other input. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 10:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
@ ElDiabloChico, please see above for the reasoning for my reverts. Please discuss per WP:BRD. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 19:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The Wallachians have won, most sources claim this and also all the wikipedia pages in foreign languages. Mehmet left Wallachia so it can't surely be an ottoman victory either. Marlon1505 ( talk) 17:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
The reference cited in the version above, Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad the Impaler (edited by Kurt Treptow) says In all likelihood, the unsuccessful night attack on the Sultan's camp marked Dracula's defeat . . The failure of the night attack made it clear that Dracula's forces were no match for the power of the Imperial army
.
It was clearly a Wallachian win, Vlad the III won in the field ElDiabloChico ( talk) 19:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
My source is [1] ElDiabloChico ( talk) 01:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
You didn't read the sources
ElDiabloChico ( talk) 14:01, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
References
🇷🇴 46.97.176.14 ( talk) 15:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
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restul= Walachian victory Bold text 46.97.176.244 ( talk) 03:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Sources say: Vlad informed Matthias Corvinus about the military action in a letter on 11 February 1462. Vlad said he killed "20,000+ Turks and Bulgarians not counting those who were burned in their own house .."
The sources doesn't say "Christian" Bulgarians were spared. Here are book names: You can look them in google books in page no#
1. Babinger, Franz (1978). Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-09900-2. (p. 204)
2. Treptow, Kurt W. (2000). Vlad III Dracula: The Life and Times of the Historical Dracula. The Center of Romanian Studies. ISBN 978-973-98392-2-8. (page 124)
The
Template:Infobox military conflict says: Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.
thus, it isn't appropriate to put this. Also if the ultimate goal of Wallachians were to assassinate Mehmed II, then how is this a victory since they're the attacker side? If both sides claimed victory, then it should either "Both sides claims victory" or remove it totally.
Beshogur (
talk) 12:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Is this title a commonname? I see some sources call it a battle as well. When did the title become like this? Anyone has an idea? Beshogur ( talk) 15:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi all. While digging into the history of this article, I couldn't help but notice that this article, Mehmed II and Vlad the Impaler have variations on how the war started. Curiously, this well produced YouTube video from a respected creator includes an Ottoman retaliatory raid for Vlad III's support for Steven III of Moldavia, which is put forward as the primary reason why Vlad refused to pay tribute and submit to Ottoman vassalage, and was therefore his de-facto casus belli. This info doesn't exist in the articles here, and although Youtube is obviously not a reliable source, I am interested in where they sourced that information. Does anyone have an original source? Regardless, all three articles explore the same conflict, so we should look into better synchronising their perspectives of the war. SuperTah ( talk) 12:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Bütün Osmanlı kaynakları ve Osmanlı tarihçileri bu savaşın Osmanlı zaferi olduğunu söylüyor, Mehmed geri çekildi diyorsunuz ama Mehmed'in ordusu Eflak'ın başkenti targoviste'ye kadar giriyor geri çekildi derken neyi kastediyorsunuz? Ömür boyu orada kalacak değil ya. Mehmed Vlad'ın planından casuslar aracılığı ile haberdar oluyor ve sahte karargah kurup ordusunu düzene sokuyor. Eflak ordusu saldırdığı sırada Uzunçarşılı ve birçok tarihçi Osmanlı ordusunda sadece bir kaç at ve deve kaybedildiğini söylüyor. Vlad canını zor kurtararak kaçıyor Mehmed peşinden adamlar gönderiyor. Bu savaş nasıl sonuçsuz olabilir acaba? Keremmardaa ( talk) 14:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
Kansas Bear You claim that the war was inconclusive. The sources I have given are Halil İnalcık (he is the greatest historian and scientist in the field of Ottoman history). And he says that Vlad was punished in their war. John Freely (an American Physicist and Historian) bluntly says that Mehmed defeated Vlad. And there are no arguments to claim a Wallachian victory. Wallachian army and Vlad's aim is to kill Mehmed, this is the plan of the war, but they cannot succeed. And the war cannot achieve its purpose. When the Wallachian army started to disperse during the night war, it began to retreat and fled unevenly. Mehmed sent Mihaloğlu Ali Bey after them and brought a lot of Wallachian captives. After the war, Mehmed enters the Targovişte castle and appoints Radu as the ruler and starts the Ottoman domination in Wallachia, which will last for 450 years. Mehmed reaches the goal of his expedition and returns to his country. I don't think any source will write that Mehmed withdrew after the war. He ended the expedition when Mehmed conquered Wallachia and left Radu as the ruler. What is Vlad's gain in this war and how can it be a victory? Keremmaarda ( talk) 23:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
I see this battle article is a place of edit war to claim Wallachian or Ottoman victory. I suggest first we need collect and provide reliable academic historical sources about the battle. By Romanian historians, by Turkish historians, other historians.
For example I found this in Hungarian history source:
https://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0011/828.html (fast google translate, so not perfect)
Mehmed wanted to counter this audacity by example, and therefore, returning victorious from Asia Minor in the fall of 1461, he prepared the most intensively for the campaign in Wallachia throughout the winter, and at the end of the spring of 1462, he suddenly with an army of 250,000 men,[7] magnificently prepared, amply equipped with siege weapons and fired up for bloody revenge attacked Wallachia, against which Stephen, the Voivode of Moldavia, advanced offensively on his orders. Having just returned from the parliament in May in Buda[8], Vlad was shocked to learn of the imminent danger to his country and, in accordance with the alliance treaty, he immediately asked for help from King Matthias, however, realizing that he could not expect it to arrive anytime soon, he divided his army of about 10,000 men, which he had quickly assembled, into two parts. He sent the smaller part against the Moldavian voivode, while with the larger part he wanted to go against the Sultan himself. But he soon became convinced that he could not successfully resist such a large force on a flat field, so he came up with another solution. He gave the order that all the cattle should always be driven up from the enemy towards the mountains, and that the food should either be hidden or destroyed, after which the women and children should also gradually move up into the mountains, while the men all grabbed weapons, he to join him. With the people gathered around him, he then hid in the woods, stalking the Turkish army from a distance, carefully avoiding a decisive clash with it, but where he came across smaller enemy groups, he ruthlessly cut them to pieces.
The Turkish army, finding no significant enemy anywhere in front of them, quickly trusted themselves and did not think much about security regulations. He wanted to use this to Vlad's advantage, and on one night he carried out a raid against the Turkish main camp with ten, others say seven thousand horsemen with the determined intention of bringing the sultan under his power. The skilfully executed raid caused great panic in the Turkish camp at the beginning, but neither the capture of the Sultan nor the definitive defeat of the Turkish army was succeeded, and Vlad had to leave as soon as possible, unless he wanted him and his men to get into the worst trouble. It was a good lesson for both of them; the Turks were more careful from now on, and Vlad allowed his opponent to go on unharmed. Arriving at Targoviste, the capital of the country at the time, he came across the place where Vlad had so cruelly executed the prisoners brought back from last year's campaign. On the half-hour-long and quarter-hour-wide field, nearly 20,000 people, men, women and children, were drawn on skewers, among them Hamza Beg on the highest pole, wrapped in crimson and velvet.
The sultan continued his advance for some time, while here and there he defeated small groups of Wallachian who acted more boldly after the departure of Vlad, who rushed to the aid of the Moldavian group, but then, in order to settle the conflict over the island of Lesbos, he began to retreat with the bulk of his army at the beginning of autumn, taking countless prisoners and taking with him 200,000 horses and cattle.[9]
A part of the Turkish army, under the command of Ali Bey, stayed behind with the Sultan's favor, Vlad's younger brother Radul. The Vlachs, who had themselves unsatisfied Vlad's abominable cruelties, slowly all defected to Radul, while Vlad, who had reached the Moldavian front and successfully confronted Voivod Stephen, who was besieging Kilia, was forced to flee to Hungary, where he was completely abandoned.[10] Before that, he sought the favor of the Sultan, to appease whom he promised to acquire Transylvania for him, from where he could easily lay his hands on all of Hungary. But the sultan didn't want to hear from the treacherous Vlad anymore, so he again turned to the Hungarians for help.[11] OrionNimrod ( talk) 20:04, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
It was empty, and he left shortly afterwards. Mehmed II did not manage to annex Wallachia as he intended, and Vlad still paid no tribute. Nobody achieved their objectives.Mehmed didn't wanted to annex Wallachia. And no doubt the campaign was a victory for Mehmed, however this page is written in such style that it is about the whole campaign, not this particular battle. We lack about a campaign article separate from this. Beshogur ( talk) 13:00, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Beshogur ( talk) 19:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Super DromaeosaurusThe source you gave does not say that Mehmed retreated after the war. Keremmaarda ( talk) 19:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
How many times do I really have to tell you?I will refrain from discussing with you. We are not in the street so do not talk to me like it.
This article only mentions the "Targovishte night attack"(Mehmed II left Târgoviște one day after the night attack, you're implying the next day is not within the scope of this article) yet still argue that it was an Ottoman victory because Vlad ended up leaving Wallachia. Which he did in November (read Vlad the Impaler#Imprisonment in Hungary). Please clarify your position. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 19:43, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that sources typically use the term "night attack" in lowercase. Alternate proposals did not achieve consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Night Attack at Târgoviște → Night attack at Târgoviște – Virtually no sources capitalize "night attack" [16]. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 20:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Frankly I cannot understand just why is this article so continously problematic.
Keremmaarda, you reverted me
[21] invoking
WP:WPNOTRS over primary sources. No primary sources are cited on the article, they are secondary sources. We aren't for example citing Leonardo Tocco's letter to the duke of Milan, we are citing an author who is analysing the letter and its contents, that constitutes a secondary source and they're the most desired source in Wikipedia. You claim that It is a political tactic to show your own army as strong to the enemy army.
This is speculation of yours unless backed by a source describing this as a possibility, and in any case this would need to go attributed ("X person said that...") unless it is proven that this is the majoritary view in academia, which I find unlikely. May I also note you're removing reliably cited information from the infobox. The source you've cited seems inferior to the ones currently present in the article. We have contemporary figures citing certain numbers, including Mehmed II himself but not only, and Akyol İbrahim and Eliaçık Muhittin take priority? They do not mention the so-far speculation you've mentioned. They also do not cite any source, other than "Osmanlı Ansiklopedisi", which I doubt is particularly exhaustive on this period of Ottoman history considering it likely covers the totality of it. I also doubt that İbrahim and Muhittin are the only people having recently (as in, the last two centuries) talked about this so as to mention their one particular source as "Modern source" in parentheses in the infobox. Finally, currently the article states that the Ottomans 10,000 to 15,000 losses. If we were to stick by the source you've cited, we would be implying the Ottomans lost 66%-100% of their army, which is clearly not true.
I find your apportation unexhaustive and highly problematic. You've replaced several secondary sources citing primary ones for a single secondary source which does not cite any primary source. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 01:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
period sourcesare. I can also find sources giving random numbers for the Ottoman army. In fact, none of the ones I've found give such a low figure. I've looked up "Night attack at Târgoviște" in Google Scholar [22], here is what sources that I could access not written by Romanians (I shouldn't even be excluding them because I have no reason to, but seemingly you have a problem with them) say. Kaplan 2011 says 250,000 (p. 34), Treptow 2022 says 250,000 as well, Light 2016 also says 250,000 (p. 42). Miller 2005 describes the Wallachian army as "badly outnumbered" (p. 95), very different from the fringe claim that the Wallachian army was somehow twice as big as the Ottoman one. I've gone through 5 result pages, with 10 each, and not a single source is even close to 15,000, which I remind contradicts all contemporary sources.
At the end of April Mehmed ii left Istanbul in order to take personal com mand of the army that was to punish Vlad and remove him from power alto gether.86 As usual, however, the news flowing through the various channels to Buda was manifold and difficult to check: some maintained that the sultan’goal was Wallachia, others thought he would attack Transylvania, while still others feared a campaign against Belgrade. Indeed, the diet that had been con voked to provide the money needed for the practical implementation of the agreements made with Frederick iii and Jiskra began to dissolve as the lords and nobles with lands in the southern regions left to protect their estates.87 What was certain were the impressive preparations made by the Ottomans on both land and water, with hundreds of river vessels heading for Vidin.88 Vo evode Vlad himself must have been under no illusions about the purpose of the Ottoman mobilization and so, as his forces were much inferior to those of the sultan, he resorted to the traditional scorched earth policy and relocated much of the population of his principality into the denselyforested areas of Wallachia. Because of a lack of money, all Matthias could do was send rein forcements by water to Belgrade,89 but it was evident that he would be unable to give Vlad much help. Besides imploring all the prelates, barons, and nobles of the realm to take up arms and go to Szeged, designated as the point of con centration, he also ordered the voevode of Transylvania to gather all nobles and nonnobles capable of taking the field and hurry to the help of Vlad, al though it is unlikely that major forces crossed the border.90 Some of the king’s councillors went so far as to state that it was a grave error not to have accepted the peace offer made by the Ottomans earlier. Despite some minor successes, Vlad proved unable to thwart the Ottoman invasion. By the beginning of July Mehmed ii had left Wallachia, entrusting its government to Vlad’s brother Radu as a vassal prince, under the supervision of Mihaloğlu Ali Bey. As rumours about the sultan’s intention to turn against Belgrade as soon as he had finished his Wallachian venture persisted,91 Matth ias finally went to Szeged in the first days of August. Then, evidently learning of the sultan’s departure for Istanbul and thence to Anatolia,92 he proceeded to Transylvania, where he was to spend the entire autumn.OrionNimrod ( talk) 17:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
It is not possible to provide logistical support for 250,000 peopleis your personal opinion.
It is an obvious fact that the number 15,000 is more modern and reliableis not only your personal opinion but also not an obvious fact.
They need food,yes
and Franz Babinger says that the Ottoman army reached 72 thousand people in 1476we are discussing the 1462 night attack though. You need sources explicitly saying that these higher estimations are unrealistic for X and Y reason. You cannot use a source for 1476 to talk about 1462. All of these violate WP:SYNTH and WP:OR.
I would remove the military losses of the Ottoman army and add that "military losses were insignificant, but many supply animals such as horses and seves died"you would then be POV-pushing because it is becoming apparent you're trying to belittle the losses of the Ottoman army. Chalkokondyles, Tursun Bey, Schiappa and Tommasi are all superior sources to the random source you've provided by virtue of being contemporary. In addition to that they're cited through several authors with just as much legitimacy all of which contradict this low number. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 22:52, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
It would be better than taking as a reference the exaggerated army numbers given by contemporary sources.WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You have no sources calling them exaggerated. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 11:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
They examine the military number, economic power and economic situation at that time. As a result, they estimate the army to be deployed in the campaign with an average data.there is none of that in your source. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 11:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
ABSTRACT In this study titled “The Culture and Literature in the era of Fatih Sultan Mehmet”, the influences of the conquest of Istanbul, which was a milestone for the Ottoman State in the transition period from Beylic to Empire, to the intellectual, cultural and the literary life of the Ottomans were studied.The scientific and cultural life was especially taken into consideration as a source feeding literature. The periods of Fatih Sultan Mehmet and Bayezid II constituted the transition period between the establishment of the Turkish literature and the classical era. As well as being a great statesman, Fatih Sultan Mehmet was a person protecting scholars and poets. There were a lot of scholars and poets around him. Istanbul became a significant culture and art center of East and West in the XV century as a result of his interest to science, art, culture and literature. In this study the importance given to science and scholars by Fatih Sultan Mehmet was discussed while the scholars of the period were being researched. Furthermore, education and educational institutions, libraries and Fatih Sultan Mehmet’s private library were all examined and so the richness of his library and his profound knowledge were introduced. The richness of Fatih Sultan Mehmet’s scientific and literary life accelerated the process of becoming classic of the Ottoman Turkish language. The Sufis, who made significant contributions to the Conquest of Istanbul, were under protection of Fatih Sultan Mehmet. In addition, they initialized to be institutionalized after the Conquest. During this period the cultural and literary relations with the Central Asia were developed, and scholars and poets were invited to Istanbul. In this period, the most important element making the literary life developed and enriched was literary surroundings. The gatherings of poets around Fatih Sultan Mehmet and the Grand Vizier Mahmut Pasha in Istanbul, Şehzade Bayezid in Amasya, Cem Sultan in Karaman and Ahmet Pasha in Bursa made the literary life active and enriched. More than 80 poets living in this period have been identified. 5 Moreover, compared to the previous periods there were significant increases in the translation and the compilation of scientific, intellectual, religious, literary, mystical works etc. All these great advances have been regarded as the preparatory phase of the great development of the Ottoman-Turkish culture and literature in the 16th century. Keywords: Ottoman, Fatih Sultan Mehmet, Istanbul, culture, literature, poet, work.OrionNimrod ( talk) 20:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Does he have an academic background in history? Dr. or Professor? Super Dromaeosaurus Keremmaarda ( talk) 20:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)