![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Moved to within Etymology II
oh my God! What the HELL is this? What is this doing in the present tense? Ed, were you trying to sound like some whiny-assed, "oh, we white people are so hard done by," educated good ol' boy? You have managed to reduce several hundred years of serious racism to "it used to be racist, but now we can't use it because they say so." How embarassing. And, by the way, it's use among black (or African-American) people is often pejorative -- it is generally not used in regular conversation, but more often as a preface to an opposing statement, thus implying that the person on the other side of the argument is in some way (and therefore his arguments) less worthy. Perhaps you might like to re-write this to reflect a very complex subject with a lot more meaning and history than you seem to be willing to credit it with. Ending a sentence with a preposition, JHK 12:49, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
Are we going to include all offensive words we can come up with? Just seeing the title of this article made me come up short. Shall we add every single racist term? -- Zoe 12:54, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
I think the record there will show that you indented my work more than once [1] [2], and over my protest.
When an author (not WFH) turns in a manuscript to me and I have to ask him to adjust the formatting and he refuses, my choices include publishing it as he desires or deciding not to publish. They do NOT include publishing it in a format he objects to. I am shocked that someone with your publishing history is not aware of this, though I notice you mostly do WFH. It would be like publishing Joyce with quotation marks around dialogue. Furthermore I don't really believe that you are so deaf--so blind to context--that you don't know how indentation can change meaning, and didn't intention to do so. Why it was so important to you is also inexplicable: you did it only to annoy me, and succeeded. In the end, the changes reflected in your talk diffs should be your words, not mine. I could easily edit your talk--without changing one letter--so that it meant something comeletely different than you intended, since quote marks, like indents, are not letters.
I deleted (not 'concealed') my contribution because you only get two choices: leave it alone or I take it back. You'll find the only work I howl when you edit is the work I sign. You have no right. But you have the ability.
As for that article title (Catholic crusade against the imagination), as a fucking born and educated Catholic, I know the proper names for many things Catholic and am not offended by them. It didn't occur to me that the politically correct would blow a fuse but it should have. Which is the gist of what I said. You are too smug and shallow a buffoon to have read or comprehended what I wrote. So much for playing in the shallow end of the pool. the librarian 04:20, 2 Feb 2003 (UTC)
No, it's *not* (really) true. "Neger" was a long time ago in use, but today it is not political correct to say "Neger" for coloured people in german. Today many Germans (and Austrians, etc.) say often "Farbige (Leute/Bürger/Menschen, etc." (that means "coloured people/citizens/humans, etc."). A big mistake is to believe, that Arnold Schwarzenegger's name means "Schwarze Neger" ("black Nigger" or "black neger", because "Neger" has not really the same meaning than "nigger"). That is not true. Correct is "schwarzen eger". I guess, "Eger" or "Egger" is an old word for "Acker", so the correct translation of his name is "black acre" or "black field".
See this Thread in de.etc.sprache.deutsch -- fux 217.225.120.20 ( talk) 00:52 Oct 25, 2003 (UTC)
[Later contributions on this topic appear below.]
I'm not sure what parts of the article I wrote; we could use the sophisticated compare features on the history page to find out. But I'm basing my understanding of the usage of nigger on 3 sources:
Perhaps context determines the degree of offensiveness... Ed Poor 13:08 Jul 23, 2002 (UTC)
Excellent rewrite, Mswake -- Zoe 14:07, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
Thanks!
A fairly big rewrite, though I've included several bits contributed by earlier writers, because they were good.
I've tried to express the recent use of the word "nigger" by black people in a better way, and also edited for tone to reduce the potential for Very Big Arguments. I hope I've not sacrificed objectivity; I don't think I have.
Mswake 14:09, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
Regarding Derek Ross' edit about "African non-Americans", what is the correct usage in the UK, Australia, NZ, SA, etc? Is it "negro" or "black" (I think those can still be used), or something else? Jeronimo 01:41, 1 Aug 2002 (UTC)
Tried to address the concerns above. I don't think we want to develop a list of "call black people this in UK, this in Australia, and this in New Zealand." As Zoe said above, "offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder", so it's impossible to be exhaustive or we'd end up with "Jim Smith of London prefers to be called 'British Ghanaian', Parminder Sangha thinks of herself as Indian first and Scottish second..." Mswake 02:21, 1 Aug 2002 (UTC)
Things that have been renamed in modern times are items like "Nigger Brown" which was a shade of brown paint you could purchase in the UK some decades ago - also Agatha Christie's story Ten Little Niggers has been renamed to Ten Little Indians and then, And Then There Were None - both of these at the time they were made no-one thought anything of - a bit like the Golliwogg - though it doesn't excuse at all the racism associated with them. 210.49.196.232 ( talk) 00:38, 11 Aug 2002 (UTC)
Removed from article for further discussion. This may be true, but I'm thinking that, if so, there must be a better way to put it:
I don't think Hindus like being called nigger any more than anyone else would. Ortolan88 05:22, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
We've had this argument about local acceptability before: see above. As a non-US English speaker I'd say that "many people outside the US are aware of the offensiveness" is a drastic understatement. It's certainly "strongly prescriptive" in the UK, so it's also incorrect to say that the US is the "only" place where this is true.
"local sensibilities are mostly about different words which describe local minorities pejoratively" -- in that case, should they be discussed in this article? This is an article about the word "Nigger", not about local racism or words for minority groups: we could in theory have an infinitely long article about "places where the word Nigger is not used".
There's already a sentence in the article (2nd para) that says: "Acceptable words vary from country to country and, ultimately, from individual to individual." If there is to be a discussion of local variations on this page (which I don't think there should be), it can't do anything but lead to that conclusion. Mswake 11:57, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
Reordered the section about Ali and reclaiming, following Hotlorp's comments: as originally written (and now restored), it was meant to illustrate the reclamation process thus:
Hope that's clearer. Mswake 12:06, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
I have some doubts about this sentence, and I hope others can address this knowledgably:
I am not so sure that the change in spelling simply signals sanitizing (as in damn -> darn). I believe these are two different words with different meanings and rules for usage. I understand that one word is derived from the other, but I think there is something far more complex going on than sanitization, and the use of "nigga" by NWA does NOT signify acceptance of the word "nigger." Slrubenstein 16:48, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
"This has been condemned by some as "revisionist", although the edited version apparently produced less complaints than a previous un-censored broadcast."
I don't understand the use of the word 'although' in this context. It does not seem to signal a contradiction. branko 17:28, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
194.255.7.137 has changed terms such as "dark-skinned people", "African-Americans", and "black people" to "negro". Though this is strictly the correct classification I undertand many black people find it offensive. Editorial decision required. ChrisQ 12:49, 22 Jan 2003 (UTC)
A week ago this page was looking in pretty good shape, now it's a bit of a mess... why the rewrite, Stevertigo? Mswake 14:20, 29 Jan 2003 (UTC)
The article says:
Who says that nigger comes from Negro? Dictionaries that I've looked at say it comes from an older form neger, which is from Middle French negre (or French nègre), which in turn is from Spanish negro. Whereas Negro is directly from Spanish (or Portuguese). -- Zundark 17:24, 29 Jan 2003 (UTC)
thx. Well, I'd call the content speculative (the sociological theory of why black people go to jail so much seems like it deserves a "some say" and also ignores the contribution of white repression). I'd call the style so-so. It's the grammar that's bothering me. I'm not comfortable with the content, so I haven't rewritten it. But that's just not competent English. the librarian 02:14, 30 Jan 2003 (UTC)
As far as I know it comes from negro. But it it might be worth pointing out that all these words derive from Latin 'Niger': French noir/neger/negre; Spanish negro; Italian nero. In other words these different derivations are not really different; nigger is just one of many dialect variations on the same word across Latinate languages. We have the countries Nigeria and Niger (pronounced Neejer) and the river Niger. All are simply variants of Latinate forms of the word for 'black', mostly with no pejorative connotations. The interesting question is why this particular variant on the word, among many others, came to be used pejoratively. Paul 62.30.112.2 ( talk) 08:47, Mar 12 2004 (UTC)
Sorry to nitpick but I can't see how Dambusters is a "biopic", and have changed it to "film", which I am more certain about! :) Chambers online says "biopic - noun - a film telling the life-story of a famous person, frequently in an uncritically admiring or superficial way. ETYMOLOGY: 1950s: short for biographical picture." Dambusters does not meet this criterion. Nevilley 08:47, 30 Jan 2003 (UTC)
Stevertigo, the theory I questioned concerns the allegation that some black people today have negative self-image and behavior, and that these traits are derived from engrained rebellious attitudes, instilled over generations.
There are other theories, such as that some black people have negative self-images because there are few positive representations of them in the media, or because white people are always looking down on them because they are black, or because they and everyone they know or are related to are poor and lack other trappings of success.
So you can't use the first theory as a fact, it's just a theory; and I don't think it has had sufficient research applied to it to be called more than speculation. the librarian 08:55, 30 Jan 2003 (UTC)
I really do think that "avoiding offense" shouldn't be a heading here. "How can I avoid offending people when using the word "nigger"?", it seems to imply. As for the "often positive" assertion... really not sure about that either. Sorry to carp, I'll do something about it soon.
Is anyone on here black? Sounding off about how black people use the word feels inappropriate to me. Mswake 09:47 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)
Should there be a link to an archive of the discussion on this page? Mswake 09:30 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
I removed this:
because it doesn't quite make sense; the word "nigger" was used long before the country "Niger" came into existence. In any event, "Niger" is first and formost the name of a river -- the country Niger (and Nigeria) are named after the river Niger. Why would Blacks in the US be named after a particular river in Africa? What is the source for this? Let's not just have "theories," tell us which philologist, linguist, or historian suggested this "theory" and on what evidence, please. Slrubenstein 20:50, 8 Apr 2003 (UTC)
I just can't leave "the self-image and habitual behaviour of Slave decendants" [sic] in there. What's more, I think the previous paragraph is speculation - could we have some citations before restoring it?
I'm also deeply uncomfortable about "avoiding offense" - conjures up images of us well-meaning white people trying to work out when it's OK to say "nigger"... ugh.
As for the second paragraph of this page, as Zoe wrote on this page way, way above: "Are we going to include all offensive words we can come up with? [...] Shall we add every single racist term?"
Once more I'd like to ask -- if any black person on here wouldn't mind "outing" themselves and giving us a view, it would provide some useful balance (with the understanding that it's an individual view). Mswake 19:55 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC) ("Hideously white" (c) Greg Dyke, BBC.)
I reverted the page to the "pre-Zog" era edit (14:55 April 14 by Mswake) and re-added Michael Hardy's italics added on the 29th, which seem to be the only substantive edits done in the interim. Hephaestos 20:56 May 1, 2003 (UTC)
Hello
I have some information from personal experience about the word "Nigra". When I was a child growing up in Alabama in the 1950's, I sometimes heard this word. It was pronounced with a long "i", as in Niagara. It was a word for "polite society", Women, ministers, politicians, etc, who needed a substitue for "nigger'. I thought that someone might want to add this information to the article. Thank you. Billyww 12.65.55.46 ( talk) 12:42 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
From the article:
This seems dubious to me. How do you "take a case to the United Nations"? Is there a legal forum there for this? How do they "order" anything? -- Anon. 217.158.210.105 ( talk) 09:11 July 3, 2003 (UTC)
[Later contributions on this topic may be found below.]
This page has gone too far. The whole thing reads like an apologia from white people. I mean to say:
"In South Africa, kaffir is similarly pejorative when it is used to refer to local blacks. In the United Kingdom "Jock" is used for the Scots, "Taffy" for the Welsh, and "Paddy" and "mick" for the Irish, and these terms are considered offensive by many."
The tone of pretended objectivity reeks. "Considered offensive by many" takes the avoidance of subjectivity too far. "Nigger" is "considered offensive by many", as is "coon" and "monkey" and "Paki scum". There comes a point at which we have to say: "This is not a valid alternative viewpoint -- this is something we do not allow."
I think we've reached it.
Mswake 01:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I've deleted a lot. I don't think it makes the page poorer: for instance, the fact that a dog in a film was called "Nigger" does not mean the word was less offensive in the UK. All it means is that calling anything black "nigger" was acceptable in the UK after it had ceased to be so in the US - suggesting in fact that it was rather more racist than less.
Mswake 01:36, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
[Earlier contributions on this topic appear above.]
I would like to see someone point out that Arnold Schwarzenegger means "Arnold black nigger" in German. Mbstone 02:14 Aug 22, 2003
After doing a brief review of this page, I feel that if you're going to add this word to wikipedia, you might as well add every other racist term in existence.
As I black male, I find the word nigger and any derived form of the word derogatory. I don't approve of its use, especially in today's society, now that it's often used in music and movies, and on the street. I remember once, I was on vacation from school and the radio station I listen to, hot97, didn't block the word on the radio. I don't know why this was allowed, or who gave the ok to unblock it, but it was later blocked again. Regardless, there is no appropriate use for this word in today's society unless your trying to make some kind of reference to the troubled past.
In short, there is no justification for the use of this word and I wish it never existed. I also like and support Ortolan88's comments. He seems to have the right idea on this topic. 24.193.42.242 ( talk) 04:42 Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)
[is Wigger a] hoax?
A Washington Post article on Strom Thurmond's 1948 candidacy for President of the United States went so far as to replace "nigger" with the periphrasis "the less-refined word for black people".
Was this in 1948 or an article perhaps around the time of the Trent Lott flap, I'd assume, about his campaign 50-odd years earlier? -- Charles L. 16:23, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
Rodney O. Lain (a Mac columnist who died recently) wrote an article entitled Angry Mac Man: The Mac is the 'Nigger' of the Computer Industry. Since this is interesting to see the use of that vile term for a non-human object, should this be mentioned in the article?
hoshie 14:09, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Removed
In the United Kingdom " Jock" is used for the Scots, " Taffy" for the Welsh, and " Paddy" and " mick" for the Irish, and these terms are considered offensive by many.
True but irrelevant.
After
"Nigger" was famously the name of a Black Labrador belonging to the RAF war-hero Wing Commander Guy Gibson.
Replaced
However it can be construed as racist to equate a dog with a human being
With
The word was in common use at that time to denote a shade of brown.
The original phrase was perhaps over-sensitive in the context of the time. And anyway, lots of dogs are given human names; it's the use of a racist name that's offensive. Andy G 01:12, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]
I've removed, pending documentation, the following sentences, which are unsupported on the Web except by WP:
Even if some sort of documentation can be found, it should still almost certainly be reworded: it is implausible that the Security Council would even entertain this, and if any other UN body thinks it has authority to do anything that remotely approaches "ordering" anything (beyond coffee and Danish [wink]), it will make very interesting reading. -- Jerzy 09:44, 2004 Jan 13 (UTC)
Well, what i changed, & what i wrote in this section, were without benefit of slogging through the 33kB of the page. The page history may disclose the order in which i realized the accuracy of my fear that old discussions were hidden under the bulk of newer ones. The references above serve to clarify considerably, but i'll at least mull further before trying to apply them to better stating the events, for the article. -- Jerzy 06:44, 2004 Feb 2 (UTC)
[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]
The following 'graph moved more or less at its contributor's request:
The specific origin, or unabridged (i.e., complete) (etymology), of the term, "nigger," according to "The New Oxford Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary," can be traced back to the Greek word nekra, or nekros... etc etc. Better look for that 'dictionary,' Wikipedians! You've been hoaxed. The whole opening of this article is spurious, edited in by Anonymous User 209.240.205.63 with a non-existent dictionary. I am deleting it, as it's also tacky. Wetman 10:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Sorry to burst in at the top, but this is important... Delete this when the issue is resolved.)
Has anyone actually checked this highly unlikely derivation from nekros? I will do it soon as I get home and consult my dictionaries. Adam 04:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This article couold use some Slang context, streetwise use, and Rap culture use of the word. JDR 09:31 25 Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
68.123.237.104 said: I do not believe that white kids use "nigga" as a "term of endearment". Show some evidence. This is really quite true. I'm Asian and all my friends are non-black and we all commonly refer to each other with this term. Back in middle and high school, everybody used it. Kent Wang 15:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that recent additions to the first paragraph of Avoiding Offense, regarding similarity to the words "booger" and "teat", are unfounded and don't belong in the article. -- Yath 06:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure the claim that it "packs more punch" than other ethnic/racial slurs is accurate. Kike is pretty damn offensive to a lot of people. -- Delirium 07:44, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you took the words right outta my brain... I've never understood this... The word is only racist in many cases to those who want to make it racist, but then in turn those people use the word in similiar context frequently and do not regard it as racist. This is the REAL racism to me. 65.123.220.150 ( talk) 06:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
That's rich. good stuff. thanks. I needed that laugh. Kzzl 08:51, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
(Excuse my poor English, it's not my natural language)
I don't agree with the ending of the sentence: "Nigger is almost always pejorative when used by non-blacks or those without dark skin, particularly white Europeans" (under "Modern meanings"). "White Europeans" there refers doubtless to English-speaking (white) Europeans. This reduces it scope to British and perhaps Irish people. I do not deny that, when "white Europeans" use the word nigger, it may be very often in a pejorative way. It's only that saying Europeans instead of British and Irish sounds like it is a commonly used word among Europeans. Actually, a great majority of Europeans do not use the word nigger in a pejorative way, since we do not use it at all. In the same way, we do not speak English among us. I would really like to see this sentence reworded. It's somewhat offending to see it as it is. -- Euyyn 11:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I have removed or 'faggot' for homosexuals. from ...are far more rudely specific terms such as 'greaser' for Latino/Hispanics, 'Christ-killer' for Jews, or 'faggot' for homosexuals. This is not a "rudely specific term" in the sense of the others. British English does have rudeley specific terms for homosexuals (fudge packer, bum chum, shirt lifter, etc.) but since this was specifically about American English and I don't know if the terms are used there I did not put a substitute. -- Chris Q 06:26, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Err, no Sam. That's false etymology, the bit about kindling. Imaginitive, but false and based on a woeful misconception of Christianity -- JamesTheNumberless 09:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I grew up (in the 80s and 90s) in a middle-class white neighborhood in North Carolina, but there were always a lot of black kids at school. In my experience, "colored" (as an adjective or noun) was definitely pejorative, probably worse than "negro." The names of the NAACP and United Negro College Fund always sounded counterproductive to me, as a kid. "Person of color" sounds respectful but archaic; I've only heard my dad use it. In general, the two acceptable terms were "African-American" or just "black." Just my two cents. - leigh 22:32, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
Its appearance which counts. To a racist, black is defined as anyone with with slightest trace of African features. Technically, we're all descended from black Africans anyway, so its not like there's much sense in the genelogical argument. -- CJWilly 15:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Moved to within Etymology II
oh my God! What the HELL is this? What is this doing in the present tense? Ed, were you trying to sound like some whiny-assed, "oh, we white people are so hard done by," educated good ol' boy? You have managed to reduce several hundred years of serious racism to "it used to be racist, but now we can't use it because they say so." How embarassing. And, by the way, it's use among black (or African-American) people is often pejorative -- it is generally not used in regular conversation, but more often as a preface to an opposing statement, thus implying that the person on the other side of the argument is in some way (and therefore his arguments) less worthy. Perhaps you might like to re-write this to reflect a very complex subject with a lot more meaning and history than you seem to be willing to credit it with. Ending a sentence with a preposition, JHK 12:49, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
Are we going to include all offensive words we can come up with? Just seeing the title of this article made me come up short. Shall we add every single racist term? -- Zoe 12:54, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
I think the record there will show that you indented my work more than once [1] [2], and over my protest.
When an author (not WFH) turns in a manuscript to me and I have to ask him to adjust the formatting and he refuses, my choices include publishing it as he desires or deciding not to publish. They do NOT include publishing it in a format he objects to. I am shocked that someone with your publishing history is not aware of this, though I notice you mostly do WFH. It would be like publishing Joyce with quotation marks around dialogue. Furthermore I don't really believe that you are so deaf--so blind to context--that you don't know how indentation can change meaning, and didn't intention to do so. Why it was so important to you is also inexplicable: you did it only to annoy me, and succeeded. In the end, the changes reflected in your talk diffs should be your words, not mine. I could easily edit your talk--without changing one letter--so that it meant something comeletely different than you intended, since quote marks, like indents, are not letters.
I deleted (not 'concealed') my contribution because you only get two choices: leave it alone or I take it back. You'll find the only work I howl when you edit is the work I sign. You have no right. But you have the ability.
As for that article title (Catholic crusade against the imagination), as a fucking born and educated Catholic, I know the proper names for many things Catholic and am not offended by them. It didn't occur to me that the politically correct would blow a fuse but it should have. Which is the gist of what I said. You are too smug and shallow a buffoon to have read or comprehended what I wrote. So much for playing in the shallow end of the pool. the librarian 04:20, 2 Feb 2003 (UTC)
No, it's *not* (really) true. "Neger" was a long time ago in use, but today it is not political correct to say "Neger" for coloured people in german. Today many Germans (and Austrians, etc.) say often "Farbige (Leute/Bürger/Menschen, etc." (that means "coloured people/citizens/humans, etc."). A big mistake is to believe, that Arnold Schwarzenegger's name means "Schwarze Neger" ("black Nigger" or "black neger", because "Neger" has not really the same meaning than "nigger"). That is not true. Correct is "schwarzen eger". I guess, "Eger" or "Egger" is an old word for "Acker", so the correct translation of his name is "black acre" or "black field".
See this Thread in de.etc.sprache.deutsch -- fux 217.225.120.20 ( talk) 00:52 Oct 25, 2003 (UTC)
[Later contributions on this topic appear below.]
I'm not sure what parts of the article I wrote; we could use the sophisticated compare features on the history page to find out. But I'm basing my understanding of the usage of nigger on 3 sources:
Perhaps context determines the degree of offensiveness... Ed Poor 13:08 Jul 23, 2002 (UTC)
Excellent rewrite, Mswake -- Zoe 14:07, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
Thanks!
A fairly big rewrite, though I've included several bits contributed by earlier writers, because they were good.
I've tried to express the recent use of the word "nigger" by black people in a better way, and also edited for tone to reduce the potential for Very Big Arguments. I hope I've not sacrificed objectivity; I don't think I have.
Mswake 14:09, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
Regarding Derek Ross' edit about "African non-Americans", what is the correct usage in the UK, Australia, NZ, SA, etc? Is it "negro" or "black" (I think those can still be used), or something else? Jeronimo 01:41, 1 Aug 2002 (UTC)
Tried to address the concerns above. I don't think we want to develop a list of "call black people this in UK, this in Australia, and this in New Zealand." As Zoe said above, "offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder", so it's impossible to be exhaustive or we'd end up with "Jim Smith of London prefers to be called 'British Ghanaian', Parminder Sangha thinks of herself as Indian first and Scottish second..." Mswake 02:21, 1 Aug 2002 (UTC)
Things that have been renamed in modern times are items like "Nigger Brown" which was a shade of brown paint you could purchase in the UK some decades ago - also Agatha Christie's story Ten Little Niggers has been renamed to Ten Little Indians and then, And Then There Were None - both of these at the time they were made no-one thought anything of - a bit like the Golliwogg - though it doesn't excuse at all the racism associated with them. 210.49.196.232 ( talk) 00:38, 11 Aug 2002 (UTC)
Removed from article for further discussion. This may be true, but I'm thinking that, if so, there must be a better way to put it:
I don't think Hindus like being called nigger any more than anyone else would. Ortolan88 05:22, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
We've had this argument about local acceptability before: see above. As a non-US English speaker I'd say that "many people outside the US are aware of the offensiveness" is a drastic understatement. It's certainly "strongly prescriptive" in the UK, so it's also incorrect to say that the US is the "only" place where this is true.
"local sensibilities are mostly about different words which describe local minorities pejoratively" -- in that case, should they be discussed in this article? This is an article about the word "Nigger", not about local racism or words for minority groups: we could in theory have an infinitely long article about "places where the word Nigger is not used".
There's already a sentence in the article (2nd para) that says: "Acceptable words vary from country to country and, ultimately, from individual to individual." If there is to be a discussion of local variations on this page (which I don't think there should be), it can't do anything but lead to that conclusion. Mswake 11:57, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
Reordered the section about Ali and reclaiming, following Hotlorp's comments: as originally written (and now restored), it was meant to illustrate the reclamation process thus:
Hope that's clearer. Mswake 12:06, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
I have some doubts about this sentence, and I hope others can address this knowledgably:
I am not so sure that the change in spelling simply signals sanitizing (as in damn -> darn). I believe these are two different words with different meanings and rules for usage. I understand that one word is derived from the other, but I think there is something far more complex going on than sanitization, and the use of "nigga" by NWA does NOT signify acceptance of the word "nigger." Slrubenstein 16:48, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
"This has been condemned by some as "revisionist", although the edited version apparently produced less complaints than a previous un-censored broadcast."
I don't understand the use of the word 'although' in this context. It does not seem to signal a contradiction. branko 17:28, 17 Jan 2003 (UTC)
194.255.7.137 has changed terms such as "dark-skinned people", "African-Americans", and "black people" to "negro". Though this is strictly the correct classification I undertand many black people find it offensive. Editorial decision required. ChrisQ 12:49, 22 Jan 2003 (UTC)
A week ago this page was looking in pretty good shape, now it's a bit of a mess... why the rewrite, Stevertigo? Mswake 14:20, 29 Jan 2003 (UTC)
The article says:
Who says that nigger comes from Negro? Dictionaries that I've looked at say it comes from an older form neger, which is from Middle French negre (or French nègre), which in turn is from Spanish negro. Whereas Negro is directly from Spanish (or Portuguese). -- Zundark 17:24, 29 Jan 2003 (UTC)
thx. Well, I'd call the content speculative (the sociological theory of why black people go to jail so much seems like it deserves a "some say" and also ignores the contribution of white repression). I'd call the style so-so. It's the grammar that's bothering me. I'm not comfortable with the content, so I haven't rewritten it. But that's just not competent English. the librarian 02:14, 30 Jan 2003 (UTC)
As far as I know it comes from negro. But it it might be worth pointing out that all these words derive from Latin 'Niger': French noir/neger/negre; Spanish negro; Italian nero. In other words these different derivations are not really different; nigger is just one of many dialect variations on the same word across Latinate languages. We have the countries Nigeria and Niger (pronounced Neejer) and the river Niger. All are simply variants of Latinate forms of the word for 'black', mostly with no pejorative connotations. The interesting question is why this particular variant on the word, among many others, came to be used pejoratively. Paul 62.30.112.2 ( talk) 08:47, Mar 12 2004 (UTC)
Sorry to nitpick but I can't see how Dambusters is a "biopic", and have changed it to "film", which I am more certain about! :) Chambers online says "biopic - noun - a film telling the life-story of a famous person, frequently in an uncritically admiring or superficial way. ETYMOLOGY: 1950s: short for biographical picture." Dambusters does not meet this criterion. Nevilley 08:47, 30 Jan 2003 (UTC)
Stevertigo, the theory I questioned concerns the allegation that some black people today have negative self-image and behavior, and that these traits are derived from engrained rebellious attitudes, instilled over generations.
There are other theories, such as that some black people have negative self-images because there are few positive representations of them in the media, or because white people are always looking down on them because they are black, or because they and everyone they know or are related to are poor and lack other trappings of success.
So you can't use the first theory as a fact, it's just a theory; and I don't think it has had sufficient research applied to it to be called more than speculation. the librarian 08:55, 30 Jan 2003 (UTC)
I really do think that "avoiding offense" shouldn't be a heading here. "How can I avoid offending people when using the word "nigger"?", it seems to imply. As for the "often positive" assertion... really not sure about that either. Sorry to carp, I'll do something about it soon.
Is anyone on here black? Sounding off about how black people use the word feels inappropriate to me. Mswake 09:47 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)
Should there be a link to an archive of the discussion on this page? Mswake 09:30 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
I removed this:
because it doesn't quite make sense; the word "nigger" was used long before the country "Niger" came into existence. In any event, "Niger" is first and formost the name of a river -- the country Niger (and Nigeria) are named after the river Niger. Why would Blacks in the US be named after a particular river in Africa? What is the source for this? Let's not just have "theories," tell us which philologist, linguist, or historian suggested this "theory" and on what evidence, please. Slrubenstein 20:50, 8 Apr 2003 (UTC)
I just can't leave "the self-image and habitual behaviour of Slave decendants" [sic] in there. What's more, I think the previous paragraph is speculation - could we have some citations before restoring it?
I'm also deeply uncomfortable about "avoiding offense" - conjures up images of us well-meaning white people trying to work out when it's OK to say "nigger"... ugh.
As for the second paragraph of this page, as Zoe wrote on this page way, way above: "Are we going to include all offensive words we can come up with? [...] Shall we add every single racist term?"
Once more I'd like to ask -- if any black person on here wouldn't mind "outing" themselves and giving us a view, it would provide some useful balance (with the understanding that it's an individual view). Mswake 19:55 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC) ("Hideously white" (c) Greg Dyke, BBC.)
I reverted the page to the "pre-Zog" era edit (14:55 April 14 by Mswake) and re-added Michael Hardy's italics added on the 29th, which seem to be the only substantive edits done in the interim. Hephaestos 20:56 May 1, 2003 (UTC)
Hello
I have some information from personal experience about the word "Nigra". When I was a child growing up in Alabama in the 1950's, I sometimes heard this word. It was pronounced with a long "i", as in Niagara. It was a word for "polite society", Women, ministers, politicians, etc, who needed a substitue for "nigger'. I thought that someone might want to add this information to the article. Thank you. Billyww 12.65.55.46 ( talk) 12:42 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
From the article:
This seems dubious to me. How do you "take a case to the United Nations"? Is there a legal forum there for this? How do they "order" anything? -- Anon. 217.158.210.105 ( talk) 09:11 July 3, 2003 (UTC)
[Later contributions on this topic may be found below.]
This page has gone too far. The whole thing reads like an apologia from white people. I mean to say:
"In South Africa, kaffir is similarly pejorative when it is used to refer to local blacks. In the United Kingdom "Jock" is used for the Scots, "Taffy" for the Welsh, and "Paddy" and "mick" for the Irish, and these terms are considered offensive by many."
The tone of pretended objectivity reeks. "Considered offensive by many" takes the avoidance of subjectivity too far. "Nigger" is "considered offensive by many", as is "coon" and "monkey" and "Paki scum". There comes a point at which we have to say: "This is not a valid alternative viewpoint -- this is something we do not allow."
I think we've reached it.
Mswake 01:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I've deleted a lot. I don't think it makes the page poorer: for instance, the fact that a dog in a film was called "Nigger" does not mean the word was less offensive in the UK. All it means is that calling anything black "nigger" was acceptable in the UK after it had ceased to be so in the US - suggesting in fact that it was rather more racist than less.
Mswake 01:36, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
[Earlier contributions on this topic appear above.]
I would like to see someone point out that Arnold Schwarzenegger means "Arnold black nigger" in German. Mbstone 02:14 Aug 22, 2003
After doing a brief review of this page, I feel that if you're going to add this word to wikipedia, you might as well add every other racist term in existence.
As I black male, I find the word nigger and any derived form of the word derogatory. I don't approve of its use, especially in today's society, now that it's often used in music and movies, and on the street. I remember once, I was on vacation from school and the radio station I listen to, hot97, didn't block the word on the radio. I don't know why this was allowed, or who gave the ok to unblock it, but it was later blocked again. Regardless, there is no appropriate use for this word in today's society unless your trying to make some kind of reference to the troubled past.
In short, there is no justification for the use of this word and I wish it never existed. I also like and support Ortolan88's comments. He seems to have the right idea on this topic. 24.193.42.242 ( talk) 04:42 Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)
[is Wigger a] hoax?
A Washington Post article on Strom Thurmond's 1948 candidacy for President of the United States went so far as to replace "nigger" with the periphrasis "the less-refined word for black people".
Was this in 1948 or an article perhaps around the time of the Trent Lott flap, I'd assume, about his campaign 50-odd years earlier? -- Charles L. 16:23, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
Rodney O. Lain (a Mac columnist who died recently) wrote an article entitled Angry Mac Man: The Mac is the 'Nigger' of the Computer Industry. Since this is interesting to see the use of that vile term for a non-human object, should this be mentioned in the article?
hoshie 14:09, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Removed
In the United Kingdom " Jock" is used for the Scots, " Taffy" for the Welsh, and " Paddy" and " mick" for the Irish, and these terms are considered offensive by many.
True but irrelevant.
After
"Nigger" was famously the name of a Black Labrador belonging to the RAF war-hero Wing Commander Guy Gibson.
Replaced
However it can be construed as racist to equate a dog with a human being
With
The word was in common use at that time to denote a shade of brown.
The original phrase was perhaps over-sensitive in the context of the time. And anyway, lots of dogs are given human names; it's the use of a racist name that's offensive. Andy G 01:12, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]
I've removed, pending documentation, the following sentences, which are unsupported on the Web except by WP:
Even if some sort of documentation can be found, it should still almost certainly be reworded: it is implausible that the Security Council would even entertain this, and if any other UN body thinks it has authority to do anything that remotely approaches "ordering" anything (beyond coffee and Danish [wink]), it will make very interesting reading. -- Jerzy 09:44, 2004 Jan 13 (UTC)
Well, what i changed, & what i wrote in this section, were without benefit of slogging through the 33kB of the page. The page history may disclose the order in which i realized the accuracy of my fear that old discussions were hidden under the bulk of newer ones. The references above serve to clarify considerably, but i'll at least mull further before trying to apply them to better stating the events, for the article. -- Jerzy 06:44, 2004 Feb 2 (UTC)
[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]
The following 'graph moved more or less at its contributor's request:
The specific origin, or unabridged (i.e., complete) (etymology), of the term, "nigger," according to "The New Oxford Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary," can be traced back to the Greek word nekra, or nekros... etc etc. Better look for that 'dictionary,' Wikipedians! You've been hoaxed. The whole opening of this article is spurious, edited in by Anonymous User 209.240.205.63 with a non-existent dictionary. I am deleting it, as it's also tacky. Wetman 10:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Sorry to burst in at the top, but this is important... Delete this when the issue is resolved.)
Has anyone actually checked this highly unlikely derivation from nekros? I will do it soon as I get home and consult my dictionaries. Adam 04:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This article couold use some Slang context, streetwise use, and Rap culture use of the word. JDR 09:31 25 Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
68.123.237.104 said: I do not believe that white kids use "nigga" as a "term of endearment". Show some evidence. This is really quite true. I'm Asian and all my friends are non-black and we all commonly refer to each other with this term. Back in middle and high school, everybody used it. Kent Wang 15:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that recent additions to the first paragraph of Avoiding Offense, regarding similarity to the words "booger" and "teat", are unfounded and don't belong in the article. -- Yath 06:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure the claim that it "packs more punch" than other ethnic/racial slurs is accurate. Kike is pretty damn offensive to a lot of people. -- Delirium 07:44, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you took the words right outta my brain... I've never understood this... The word is only racist in many cases to those who want to make it racist, but then in turn those people use the word in similiar context frequently and do not regard it as racist. This is the REAL racism to me. 65.123.220.150 ( talk) 06:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
That's rich. good stuff. thanks. I needed that laugh. Kzzl 08:51, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
(Excuse my poor English, it's not my natural language)
I don't agree with the ending of the sentence: "Nigger is almost always pejorative when used by non-blacks or those without dark skin, particularly white Europeans" (under "Modern meanings"). "White Europeans" there refers doubtless to English-speaking (white) Europeans. This reduces it scope to British and perhaps Irish people. I do not deny that, when "white Europeans" use the word nigger, it may be very often in a pejorative way. It's only that saying Europeans instead of British and Irish sounds like it is a commonly used word among Europeans. Actually, a great majority of Europeans do not use the word nigger in a pejorative way, since we do not use it at all. In the same way, we do not speak English among us. I would really like to see this sentence reworded. It's somewhat offending to see it as it is. -- Euyyn 11:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I have removed or 'faggot' for homosexuals. from ...are far more rudely specific terms such as 'greaser' for Latino/Hispanics, 'Christ-killer' for Jews, or 'faggot' for homosexuals. This is not a "rudely specific term" in the sense of the others. British English does have rudeley specific terms for homosexuals (fudge packer, bum chum, shirt lifter, etc.) but since this was specifically about American English and I don't know if the terms are used there I did not put a substitute. -- Chris Q 06:26, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Err, no Sam. That's false etymology, the bit about kindling. Imaginitive, but false and based on a woeful misconception of Christianity -- JamesTheNumberless 09:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I grew up (in the 80s and 90s) in a middle-class white neighborhood in North Carolina, but there were always a lot of black kids at school. In my experience, "colored" (as an adjective or noun) was definitely pejorative, probably worse than "negro." The names of the NAACP and United Negro College Fund always sounded counterproductive to me, as a kid. "Person of color" sounds respectful but archaic; I've only heard my dad use it. In general, the two acceptable terms were "African-American" or just "black." Just my two cents. - leigh 22:32, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
Its appearance which counts. To a racist, black is defined as anyone with with slightest trace of African features. Technically, we're all descended from black Africans anyway, so its not like there's much sense in the genelogical argument. -- CJWilly 15:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |