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The Niels Bohr page states:
He predicted the existence of a new zirconium-like element, which was named hafnium, after Copenhagen, when it was discovered.
On the Hafnium page, it states:
Its existence was predicted by Dmitri Mendeleev in 1869.
Did they both predict the existence of Hafnium? — Preceding
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If I could, I would edit the lede paragraph as follows:
As it is, the article looks suspiciously like self-parody. "Abraham Lincoln, an American president and woodcutter ..." "Katherine Hepburn, an American actress and golfer ..."
To put it another way: Bohr's importance in the history of football is significantly less than his importance in the history of science.
JGleick ( talk) 14:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
No, seriously, I must disagree. To call him a footballer anywhere in the lead paragraph is a little silly. The Benjamin Franklin example is different; he was a polymath, and all those different roles were significant. Niels Bohr was a physicist. Certainly he could also be said to have been a philosopher and a promoter of research in science.
His playing football gets sufficient prominence in the Early Life section.
(I mean, not that I have anything against football. It's certainly better this way than before.) JGleick ( talk) 21:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't feel ready to jump into editing such a weighty article just yet, but under Early life, there's maybe room for elaboration on the 'teachers = friends of Bohr's father' aspect. In Manjit Kumar's Quantum Bohr states that he and his brothers listened to the discussions of the top Danish thinkers (including his teachers) at his own home which left "some of our earliest and deepest impressions." [1] The passage given quotes from Pais (1991) pg.99 Hillbillyholiday talk 21:29, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The article (ending with note 29) says: "New professors were formally introduced to King Christian X, who expressed his delight at meeting such a famous football player.[29]" This seems like an odd ending. Why would the King refer to him as a footballer, when in fact he wasn't a famous footballer? The reason Pais (the note) mentions it is because of the anecdotal nature of the meeting. The King mistook Niels Bohr for his brother Harald Bohr, who was in fact a famous footballer! When it's anecdotal it's because Bohr corrected the King, by saying that he must mean his brother - but a commoner - not even a professor - corrects the King (a breach of etiquette). The King, according to Pais, decided to give Bohr another chance by repeating the previous "famous footballer"-line (presumably in the hope that Bohr would catch on, and agree with the King and get on with the introduction). Bohr replies again, that the King is mistaken, and the audience ends on a rather awkward note. Now, my issue with this is, that the line in the article ending with note 29 is begging for an explanation (which I give above). Now, this would constitute a long text on something rather irrelevant. So my proposal would be to remove the royal audience completely, or at least remove the "footballer"-reference.-- Nwinther ( talk) 14:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
There's a line in this section that says "sizeable contributions were also made by industry and private donors, many of them Jewish." Who are these private donors? Why is it relevant to mention that "many of them" were Jewish? Who were these Jewish contributors? Is it controversial for jews to donate money to institutes of physics? Were there religious, political or racial issues revolving around the institute that makes jewish contributions especially noteworthy?-- Nwinther ( talk) 14:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
This section has a line "In 1914, Carl Jacobsen, the founder of the Carlsberg breweries," Carl Jacobsen wasn't founder of, but heir to, the Carlsberg Breweries. He did found "Ny Carlsberg" which later became part of the Carlsberg Breweries, but the segment is misleading. Also, the term "Aeresbolig" is wrong. In the article it's written as if that's the name of the mansion, as if Aircraft Carrier was the name of USS Nimitz. In reality it's "Aeresboligen" and means "(the) honorary residence". In other words it's not the name of the house, but the function of the house! Rather than continuing to write "Aeresbolig" I find it more proper to write "honorary residence" in the beginning and just referring to is as "house" for the rest of the section.-- Nwinther ( talk) 14:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
French and Kennedy (1985) is an edited book. The citations in the articles should really be to the authors of the articles in the book, not to the editors. I will be adding the references to the individual articles. I don't know if I'll have enough time this morning to fix the cites (i.e. the names that appear in the footnotes) as well, but, if not, I will leave a list here of the footnote numbers and the corresponding individual article references. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
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help)Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Is this really helpful: "akin to planets around the sun" It seems to me that actually Rutherford proposed that. And one of Bohr's contributions was that it is misleading to compare electrons to planets. Beyondallmeaning ( talk) 05:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense to say he proposed the orbitals are discrete, and that it is like planets orbiting the sun. Propose taking out the planetary analogy. It might mislead readers. Beyondallmeaning ( talk) 01:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
What in the world is a radious? Did you mean radius? Headbomb { talk / contribs / physics / books} 13:54, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
"In 1921, the Dutch physicist Hendrika Johanna van Leeuwen would independently derive a theorem from Bohr's thesis that is today known as the Bohr–van Leeuwen theorem."
This does not make sense. She could not have independently derived the theorem from Bohr's thesis, only independently invent the same theory, which is what the Bohr–van Leeuwen theorem article says. This article also says that she developed it in her 1919 doctoral thesis. 1921 is the date of the journal publication. Dudley Miles ( talk) 14:58, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
The image in the infobox is not what I expected to see when I visited the article. Could a caption at least be included to note the image's relevance? -- Another Believer ( Talk) 16:25, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
This article is a perfect candidate for semi-protection. It has been a preferred target for vandalism and other sorts of edits (such as by those with a religious axe to grind). Coldcreation ( talk) 23:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I've re-phrased the "Meeting with Heisenberg" section; as written it was presenting Heisenberg's version of what happened as fact, which is a bit of a cheek in an article on Bohr. I think the best-known thing about this meeting is that we don't know what happened, and the text should reflect that. Xyl 54 ( talk) 23:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Dear Coldcreation, You have reverted my corrections to Bohr's Philosophy section. I have made every effort to comply with the Wikipedia guidelines, but if I have missed anything I would appreciate an openly voiced correction, rather than a silent deletion. As it currently is, the article grossly misrepresents a very important aspect of Bohr's life, and showing only one side of this issue violates every principle of honest representation. I would be happy to consider any specific and relevant criticisms on the matter, but for the integrity of the article and the quality of your own reputation it seems in your interest to undo this deletion for now. Thank you for your work. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 23:51, 28 November 2013 (UTC)BT
This is a discussion about the following sentence within the article: "Bohr's disagreements with the philosopher mostly stemmed from Bohr's atheism."
According to the article on atheism, a copious number of definitions exists for the term. They may include just about anyone: Lenin, Feynman, and Socrates, not to mention newborn children and Christians. Furthermore, this word is not only meaningless, it has strong cultural allusions, which mislead the reader to believe a thing which was not meant. Thus, in its present form it is an equivocation and should not be used without an explanation of what specifically is meant by it. Some author using a weasel word in his book does not justify it becoming a valid statement in Wikipedia, unless used as a direct quotation.
The referenced sources do not provide any sort of proof behind their claims relevant to this discussion. Bohr never called himself an atheist to my knowledge, and whoever called him that should have shown a detailed comparative analysis between Bohr's various statements and a rigorous definition of the word "atheist", if this labeling was to be considered a proof. Therefore, the sentence should be modified to reflect this important detail.
If atheism is juxtaposed to theism, then the mentioned statement is directly contradictory to Bohr's personally expressed view on "deep truths". Quotations: "the so-called 'deep truths', are statements in which the opposite also contains deep truth." [1] and "Contraria Sunt Complementia", at minimum, demonstrate the idea with precision, using nothing but primary sources, and must be mentioned next to the sentence in question.
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 02:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Regarding BijouTrouvailles statement: "The conversation that was cited is available here: http://www.edge.org/conversation/science-and-religion. Would you elaborate on the reasons as to why you think this may be original research?".
Reply: Because as a personal recollection of events by Heisenberg it is a primary source. It can at best be used to source claims made by Heisenberg about Bohr. To make any general claims based on that primary source would be to introduce your own personal interpretation of events. We would need a secondary source that contains such interpretations and claims for them to be acceptable for this article. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 15:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I have finally gotten a chance to bring up the cited references verbatim. Below is proof that the controversial statement in question is nothing but original research. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Stewart 2010, p. 416: "Part of this may have followed from Kierkegaard being a very avowed, yet rather circuitous proponent of a costly Christian faith, while after a youth of confirming faith Bohr himself was a non-believer."
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Faye & Folse 2010, p. 88: "Planck was religious and had a firm belief in God; Bohr was not, but his objective to Planck's view had no anti-religious motives"
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Aaserud & Heilbron 2013, p. 110: "Bohr's sort of humor, use of parables and stories, tolerance, dependence on family, feelings of indebtedness, obligation, and guilt, and his sense of responsibility for science, community, and, ultimately, humankind in general, are common traits of the Jewish intellectual. So too is a well-fortified atheism. Bohr ended with no religious belief and a dislike of all religions that claimed to base their teachings on revelations."
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
With both the logical fallacy of the claim as it is and the clear evidence of liberal interpretation of secondary sources in view, I see no other choice but to remove the statement in question, replacing it with the direct citation from reference 1. It is the only source that pertains to the paragraph and citing it directly should prevent any careless, unsupported conclusions.
I would correct it to be the following way:
Comments, suggestions? BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
The citations given in the article are not (in my opinion) considered "original research" since they are cited by biographers of Bohr. Remember, Wikipedia says that original research is when "material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." (you can read more about it here: Wikipedia:No original research). It would be considered original research if a Wikipedian user typed his own opinion in an article that is not cited by any reliable source or by misusing a source. There are other citations that I could give you that state the Bohr was an "atheist":
1.) Simmons, John (1996). The Scientific 100: a rankings of the most influential scientists, past and present. Carol Publishing Group. p. 16. ISBN 978-0-8065-1749-0. "His mother was warm and intelligent, and his father, as Bohr himself later recalled, recognized "that something was expected of me." The family was not at all devout, and Bohr became an atheist who regarded religious thought as harmful and misguided."
2.) Larry Witham (2006). The Measure of God: History's Greatest Minds Wrestle with Reconciling Science and Religion. HarperCollins. pp. 138–139. ISBN 9780060858339. ""Bohr's atheism, the counterpiece of Einstein's monotheism, ... was more affined to traditional Far Eastern philosophy,” according to Stent. ...The young Bohr thus lived in two worlds, but mostly the cultural Christianity of the Danish middle class. As a young man, he had read Søren Kierkegaard, a fellow Dane and a Christian existentialist from the nineteenth century, with some enthusiasm. But he finally faced a religious crisis, and by the time he went to England to study physics, the idea of God had lost its appeal. The aim of life was happiness, he wrote his fiancée, making it impossible “that a person must beg from and bargain with fancied powers infinitely stronger than himself." ... In his only published paper on the topic of religion, Bohr spoke not of deities and doctrines but of psychological experience."
You can argue against these citations, however, I don't see much of a point of getting rid of the term "atheism". Would you like the word "atheism" to be changed to "non-believer"? I wouldn't mind you adding that Niels Bohr's quote on religion from Heisenburg. However, I feel that this topic isn't really worth debating about (since one good citation should suffice, let alone 3, 4 or 5). Try to contact other Wikipedian administrators on this talk-page if you feel that you need more evidence on this issue of original research. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thank you for your patience. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 19:12, 7 December 2013 (UTC) Ninmacer20 ( talk) 19:12, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Dear Ninmacer20, I am afraid that you didn't accurately read my arguments, else I haven't stated them clearly enough. As it is, the first half of your reply argues points I have already covered, and the first sentence is an outright straw man (undoubtedly unintended). To summarize: while I did argue against the usage of the term "atheist" as an equivocation, I have also demonstrated that interpretation of the sources brought up was erroneous.
About your question, "Would you like the word "atheism" to be changed to "non-believer"?", it seems that by itself this would be even more of an equivocation than "atheist". However, the word "non-believer" in the Stewart citation is part of a context that gives it a specific meaning of "Non-believer in Christian faith". The way I see it, since there is only one author that makes a statement about the nature of disagreement with K., it would be most graceful to present this statement as it is—as a direct quote.
About your other two citations. Unlike the first three, these two clearly opine that Bohr was an atheist, and if you wanted to make a paragraph that would present different opinions on Bohr's views on metaphysics and religion I think they would fit well there. Perhaps that same paragraph can contain the quote from the conversation with Heisenberg on religions and one with Einstein on deep truths. I just think that identifying "Non-believer in Christianity" with "atheist" or a nebulous "non-believer" is hardly appropriate, and even if there are other authors claiming that Bohr was an atheist, lumping all these different ideas into one statement about a very complex philosophy, is an inference not made by any of the secondary sources you have brought up, thus again original research.
I appreciate your patience as well, and I hope you will take no offense at my arguments against yours, especially since we seem to share a goal: to produce an informative and accurate presentation on one of the greatest figures in the history of science. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 20:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't worry about it. For now, just wait for other users on this board and see what they have to say. This may take awhile. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 06:05, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Friend, I have ordered the 2 other books you mentioned and must again bring up an inaccuracy in your reading. Witham quotes Stent saying that Bohr was an atheist. The author makes no such conclusion, in fact, his book book isn't even a tertiary source for such a statement. There aren't 3,4, or 5 good sources to call Bohr an atheist, as you've said, but so far only one bad source: Simmons' "The Scientific 100". "The reliability of a source depends on context", state the guidelines, and the context here is history and religion, neither of which are acknowledged areas of expertise for Simmons, who publishes mostly on the topic of investments; perhaps that explains why he makes no effort to support this claim. If you want to stake your reputation of objectivity on such low quality of information, I won't try to stop you, but I ask that even in your own interest you do so explicitly and in its own space, rather than hiding it within a different topic altogether.
It seems that no one else has any more objections to removing this contentious sentence. It has been a long time and a thorough debate, and I have demonstrated from every perspective the unsupported nature of the statement I argue to change: by the rules of Wikipedia, by the rules of logical argument, and by clear common sense. Ninmacer20, I truly appreciate all the research you've done for the article, but don't you think it is time to fix this one part so obviously erroneous already? BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 05:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty much tired of having this debate. Anyway, I can understand your concerns. Based on my other readings of Bohr, I think it pretty safe to say that Bohr was not religious or that he believed in a personal God (based on these sources):
1.) Niels Bohr: Atomic Theorist (2 ed.). Infobase Publishing. 2008. p. 37. ISBN 9780816061785. "Niels had quietly resigned his membership in the Lutheran Church the previous April. Although he had sought out religion as a child, by the time of their marriage he no longer “was taken” by it, as he put it. “And for me it was exactly the same,” Margrethe later explained. “[Interest in religion] disappeared completely,” although at the time of their wedding, she was still a member of the Lutheran Church. (Niels's parents were also married in a civil, not a religious, ceremony, and Harald also resigned his membership in the Lutheran Church just before his wedding, a few years later.)"
2.) "I feel very much like Dirac: the idea of a personal God is foreign to me. But we ought to remember that religion uses language in quite a different way from science. The language of religion is more closely related to the language of poetry than to the language of science. True, we are inclined to think that science deals with information about objective facts, and poetry with subjective feelings. Hence we conclude that if religion does indeed deal with objective truths, it ought to adopt the same criteria of truth as science. But I myself find the division of the world into an objective and a subjective side much too arbitrary. The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality. And splitting this reality into an objective and a subjective side won't get us very far." - Statements of Bohr after the Solvay Conference of 1927, as quoted in Physics and Beyond (1971) by Werner Heisenberg (from Wikiquote).
Anyway, would you like me to replaced the word "atheism" with "non-religious"? By the way, I don't see what is wrong with the word "non-believer". Even Einstein refer to himself as a "deeply religious nonbeliever". Being a non-believer does not necessary mean being an atheist. I'm only saying this because the only citation that states about Bohr's disagreements with Kierkegaard refer to Bohr as a "non-believer". Ninmacer20 ( talk) 08:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Respectfully, if you are tired of this debate you can always concede to replacing the original statement with the direct quote, as I ask, otherwise you are taking the responsibility to carry on until an understanding is reached. It is a complicated work for both of us, but what other civilized way can there be?
"Non-believer" of the quote means "Non-Christian", within the context. Also notice how carefully Peterson puts it: "Part of this may have followed...", and contrast that with: "...stemmed mostly from...". We don't know what these disagreements were, historians have only guessed and may never know, and it is wrong to mislead the reader to believe otherwise. I fail to see what is wrong with quoting Peterson directly, but if you dislike that stylistically for some reason, how about we replace the statement with this: "Part of it may have stemmed from Bohr's disagreement with Christianity [Stewart ref]"? I don't think that in this case "may have followed" would be a weasel phrase because there is no other way to express the highly hypothetical nature of this conclusion yet still relay the idea while remaining true to the source. Is that acceptable to you? BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 09:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
BijouTrouvaille, I'm willing to accept your advice in referring to the author and his quote within the article itself. Just wait until there is a consensus so that other Wikipedia users are satisfy with the edit as well. Remember, Wikipedia is made up of a community of users that allows almost anyone (with evidence) to have a say in their criticism. Sometimes, I had to wait for more than a month until I could requested a similar edit like yours as well. Thank you for your patience. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 17:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
The "event" that I mean is to wait for other Wikipedia users to agree to the change on the edit. For example the Wikipedia user, Saddhiyama, made a recent comment (a day before you made this message) about his/her issues with this topic. We have to finish this debate with him/her (and possibly others) before we can proceed onward. Even if we both agree to a change in the "Bohr's disagreements with Kierkegaard" sentence, we must allow others to have a say before we can make an edit. I'm not saying we should wait for another month but if any other user doesn't make any other concerns in next 10 days, we can assume that most users consent to our wishes. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 20:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the unsupported statement. If someone has a new source that unambiguously proves that "Bohr's disagreements with the philosopher mostly stemmed from Bohr's atheism", they may discuss it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BijouTrouvaille ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Ninmacer20, you have undone the deletion by stating that "references are provided", yet the references provided do not support the phrase. The phrase has to be removed and it is not my responsibility to replace it. I did offer two other possible solutions, and they were rejected based on arguable grounds. You are welcome to continue the debate where it was left off, if you wish, however, I see no reason to keep the unsourced statement in the article in the meantime—it has been debated thoroughly. BijouTrouvaille ( talk)
The reason why I undid your edit was because I wanted to rephrase that sentence based on the citations given, not to remove it. I also didn't want to re-add those citations again. However, in order to rephrase that sentence, I must have approval from the Wikipedia community first. For example, I'd at least rephrase the sentence (that you previous removed) into something like this: "Bohr's biographer, "Insert Biographer's name", believes or infers Bohr's disagreements of Kierkegaard's philosophy due to Bohr's being non-religious." It's not a good sentence, however, this allows other users to (at very least) improve or replaced on the sentence that was given. I hope this debate is resolved as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 04:53, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I am okay with the procedure, although you may have noticed that it has come to a stalemate. I can not think of a better way to rephrase than, "Bohr's biographer Peterson suggests that Bohr's disagreements with K. stem from his disagreement with Christianity." That would be the most inclusive and minimal interpretation of the text that does not ignore the context. This would be the most inclusive because Buddhism, atheism, and Deism fall into the "disagreements with Christianity" category. Peterson assumes that the disagreements were on a religious basis, but what could they be? They were *at least* about K's Christianity according to the author, and I doubt that we can come to an agreement on any more than that.
I do not think "non-religious" is correct here because K. was not religious in the sense of belonging to an organized religion, and they both were probably fairly religious in the sense of Einstein's "cosmic religious feeling", or maybe not, we can't know that one; there are also other senses. I understand your intention, but I do not see how this word can fit here. Non-believer also seems bad. Out of context this word can be used to present a very specific dogma that has little if any epistemological value, but in any other context the word takes meaning from it, and we are taken back to the question of which one. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 22:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any problems with either statement from both you or BijouTrouvaille, they are both fine. However, I'd like to see other Wikipedia users commented on this issue. The reason being that are some other users that may disagree/reject with our statement. We should at least gain approval from one administrator before we make any changes to the article. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 23:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I see no problems with Djr32's version, save a minor thing in that Richard Peterson is the biographer, with Stewart being the editor who collected this and other essays into a book. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 04:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Okay good, we seem to be in some agreement with Djr32's rephrase sentence. Djr32 could rephrase the sentence if he/she wished. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 04:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Blatant disrespect of other editors by using personal attacks, spurious arguments, and posts designed to provoke, completely disregarding the rules of conduct here at W., clearly mark user Tarl.Neustaedter as a troll. Please search for his name on this page for many examples of this. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 03:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Article changed as agreed. To preserve references, I'm pasting the original below.
Bohr's disagreements with the philosopher mostly stemmed from Bohr's [[atheism]].{{sfn|Stewart|2010|p=416}}{{sfn|Faye|Folse|2010|p=88}}<ref>{{harvnb|Aaserud|Heilbron|2013|p=110}} "Bohr's sort of humor, use of parables and stories, tolerance, dependence on family, feelings of indebtedness, obligation, and guilt, and his sense of responsibility for science, community, and, ultimately, humankind in general, are common traits of the Jewish intellectual. So too is a well-fortified atheism. Bohr ended with no religious belief and a dislike of all religions that claimed to base their teachings on revelations."</ref> BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 09:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
References
It's important to list Niels Bohr as a Sephardic Jew in terms of ethnicity and heritage, not in terms of religion. Understanding his heritage as a Sephardic Jew is an important part of understanding his Danish heritage, insofar as the Sephardic diaspora had a cultural center in Glucksberg for over 300 years. In other words, it's important to show that he was of a very old line of Spanish Jews who arrived in Denmark after the Expulsion of the Jews of Spain. Traditions in science within the Sephardic community would have influenced his cultural experience as a scientist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SephardicScholar ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Because Sephardic culture also has an epicenter in London, with influential roles throughout the British Empire, it's plausible that his Sephardic heritage prompted his study at Victoria University. Indeed all other biographies of this great Sephardic thinker mention that he came from Sephardic stock, including The Men of Manhattan: Creators of the Nuclear Era By Jeffrey Strickland and a separate online biography from McGill University. It was indeed important enough to list on those biographies and would certainly give context and definition to the character of this great thinkers mind, just as the Zionist and other Jewish contextual components of Albert Einstein are a part of our understanding of his contributions. His being Sephardic is a matter of ethnicity, his genetics, his community, which are important for individuals researching this great man to know and understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SephardicScholar ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
It belongs in this article because it has been cited in other biographical statements per the lineage of his mother, Adler, which gives definition to his Jewishness that should be clear and not vague. Why does his Jewishness belong in this article but any point eschewing vague statements per such Jewishness deemed in your opinion incongruous with this article's content? This is a simple biographical statement found in all other biographical statements once can find from highly reputable sources like the National Science Foundation and McGill University. The more biographical information pulled from these sources, which give insight into this great scientists origins, just as any other biographical description (some of which on Wikipedia even go into the grandparents' lineage) -- the better the biography on this page will be. Otherwise, I will delete any mention of his Jewishness, provided that the specific context of such Jewishness is described in other biographies -- most likely as a point of clarity per family communities, not to convey any religious or social cause on his part. Even the word Sephardic simply means Spanish or Spaniard in Hebrew, which is a geographical clarification. There should be no issue in stating that he was a Spanish Jew, just as any other article about a Jewish person on Wikipedia states if the person was a Polish Jew or a Bulgarian Jew. The country of origin for a Jew is often a complex thing, especially with Sephardic Jews who typically found a secondary mother land after the expulsion. For this reason, someone like Isaac Disraeli could be described as a British-Sephardic writer. Sephardic being the underlying tradition and scope of Jewishness and the British prefix giving further detail as to the relocation of the particular line after the Expulsion. This is a point of accuracy, to give a more accurate and clear picture into Bohr's Jewishness from a simple biographical perspective. There is no agenda herewith, merely a point that should be clear and accurate if the distinction of "Jew" should made at all in discussing Bohr's life. Some months ago, I didn't notice Niels Bohr's page here as stating that he was Jewish at all. Perhaps we should remove this qualifier overall -- otherwise, it is indeed more accurate to give geographical context to his Jewishness. Sephardic is not a "variant," that is a strange way of putting this diasporic term. Spain is a country just as Poland is a country. Why can we not mention the country from which the tradition of Jewishness he had in his lineage stemmed? Righting a great wrong on your part would be conceal his maternal family's origin in Spain to keep his image more Danish or more Ashkenazic, boosting the image of the Ashkenaz in light of the great wrongs done to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SephardicScholar ( talk • contribs) 05:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Did he ever receive US citizenship? -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 17:24, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Forgive my ignorance, but I got the impression years ago the Bohr was in fact quite reluctant to be spirited to the UK to aid British/Allied research efforts during the war. In fact, I thought that he had to be practically forced into the Mosquito. Can anyone enlighten on this, and if so, can it be included in the article? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isoruku ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
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My suggestion is that Niels Bohr not be categorized as an athlete. Perhaps a scientist? 75.134.106.2 ( talk) 23:16, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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As an Knight of the Elephant in Denmark, he should be referred to has "his Excellency, Niels Bohr" and have the suffix "RE" this is in keeping with other Knights such as Maersk Mc-kinney Moller. 87.49.190.121 ( talk) 15:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Things sometimes "creep in" so would someone look at the "Further reading" and "External links" for possible integration or trimming? 3 to 5 (four to five as possible exceptions) seems to be a "reasonable number", and of course there can be exceptions, but 16 links between the two sections starts looking like link farming. Otr500 ( talk) 16:22, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
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In the introduction: "Bohr mentored and collaborated with physicists including Hans Kramers, Oskar Klein, George de Hevesy, and Werner Heisenberg." His PhD student Lev Landau should be added to the list, as one of the most famous physicists of the 20th century (see his wiki page) and a Nobel laureate -- far more famous than all mentioned save for Heisenberg. 2601:182:D041:3E0A:7DFD:B483:D2A0:D934 ( talk) 15:49, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Astounding and unacceptable that there is no section on (indeed, not even a mention of) the Copenhagen Interpretation, and more generally no discussion at all of the foundations of quantum mechanics. --- Dagme ( talk) 02:33, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
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Under § Later years, there is a reference linking to Bohr's coat of arms:
<ref>{{cite web |title=Bohr crest | publisher=University of Copenhagen | date=17 October 1947 | url=http://www.nbi.dk/hehi/logo/bohr_crest.png | accessdate=16 March 2007}}</ref>
This link is now dead, and should be replaced with an archived version:
<ref>{{cite web |title=Bohr crest | publisher=University of Copenhagen | date=17 October 1947 | url=http://www.nbi.dk/hehi/logo/bohr_crest.png | accessdate=9 September 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190502082514/https://www.nbi.dk/hehi/logo/bohr_crest.png |archive-date=2 May 2019}}</ref>
Thank you. 104.246.223.200 ( talk) 21:07, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
In this Niels Bohr article I realized that the name George de Hevesy isn’t put in as a link when this article mentions his name when he was searching for element 72. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HarryPotter102 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Please add tag Category:Jewish Danish scientists to this article so that it appears on the Danish Jews by Occupation: Scientists page. Thank you. Deborah Dinzes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:9c00:1a4:c8a5:781c:59d8:d7dc ( talk) 21:15, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
As Karen Barad [1] [2] and others [3] and [4] write, Bohr directly did NOT embrace Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and Heisenberg himself admitted his philosophical misstep with this categorization within what is called 'the problem of the observer', or the 'psycho-physical' (Pauli/Jung) [5] also [6] problem. Instead Bohr proposed 'Indeterminacy' which is an ontological category rather than an epistemological one, saying essentially nature is what is fundamentally indeterminate. Uncertainty refers to the agential observer's capacity, and is an epistemic category. The differences are profound. Bohr's 'philosophy' section could use some serious attention as he was known as a physicist-philosopher' rather than merely having had developed the atomic model, and his philosophy still resonates through many fields and disciplines today.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joldt ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Niels Bohr - LOC - ggbain - 35303.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for October 7, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2021-10-07. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 11:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
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Niels Bohr (7 October 1885 – 18 November 1962) was a Danish physicist who made foundational contributions to understanding atomic structure and quantum theory. He advanced the theory of electrons travelling in orbits around the atom's nucleus, with the chemical properties of each element being largely determined by the number of electrons in the outer orbits of its atoms. He introduced the idea that an electron could drop from a higher-energy orbit to a lower one, in the process emitting a quantum of discrete energy. For his work, he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1922. Photograph credit: Bain News Service; restored by Bammesk
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Add in the infobox: |module= {{Infobox football biography |position = [[Goalkeeper (association football)|Goalkeeper]] |youthyears1 = |youthclubs1 = [[Akademisk Boldklub]] |years1 = 1905 |clubs1 = [[Akademisk Boldklub]] }} 73.162.91.15 ( talk) 21:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
The section Early years says: "the second of three children of Christian Bohr, a professor of physiology at the University of Copenhagen, and Ellen Bohr from the wealthy banking family." That's not quite true. I therefore propose, if someone has a good source to support it with, something like "the second of three children of Christian Bohr, a professor of physiology at the University of Copenhagen, and Ellen Bohr, née Adler, from a wealthy Jewish banking family." (Or without the "Jewish"; but it was probably relevant in the society of that time and would certainly be relevant later). 151.177.56.148 ( talk) 02:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Regarding one of Bohr's sons, there is an error in spelling of the word "institution". It was wrongly typed as "instution". 37.151.190.5 ( talk) 18:45, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Niels Bohr page states:
He predicted the existence of a new zirconium-like element, which was named hafnium, after Copenhagen, when it was discovered.
On the Hafnium page, it states:
Its existence was predicted by Dmitri Mendeleev in 1869.
Did they both predict the existence of Hafnium? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
174.103.142.7 (
talk)
20:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
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If I could, I would edit the lede paragraph as follows:
As it is, the article looks suspiciously like self-parody. "Abraham Lincoln, an American president and woodcutter ..." "Katherine Hepburn, an American actress and golfer ..."
To put it another way: Bohr's importance in the history of football is significantly less than his importance in the history of science.
JGleick ( talk) 14:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
No, seriously, I must disagree. To call him a footballer anywhere in the lead paragraph is a little silly. The Benjamin Franklin example is different; he was a polymath, and all those different roles were significant. Niels Bohr was a physicist. Certainly he could also be said to have been a philosopher and a promoter of research in science.
His playing football gets sufficient prominence in the Early Life section.
(I mean, not that I have anything against football. It's certainly better this way than before.) JGleick ( talk) 21:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't feel ready to jump into editing such a weighty article just yet, but under Early life, there's maybe room for elaboration on the 'teachers = friends of Bohr's father' aspect. In Manjit Kumar's Quantum Bohr states that he and his brothers listened to the discussions of the top Danish thinkers (including his teachers) at his own home which left "some of our earliest and deepest impressions." [1] The passage given quotes from Pais (1991) pg.99 Hillbillyholiday talk 21:29, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The article (ending with note 29) says: "New professors were formally introduced to King Christian X, who expressed his delight at meeting such a famous football player.[29]" This seems like an odd ending. Why would the King refer to him as a footballer, when in fact he wasn't a famous footballer? The reason Pais (the note) mentions it is because of the anecdotal nature of the meeting. The King mistook Niels Bohr for his brother Harald Bohr, who was in fact a famous footballer! When it's anecdotal it's because Bohr corrected the King, by saying that he must mean his brother - but a commoner - not even a professor - corrects the King (a breach of etiquette). The King, according to Pais, decided to give Bohr another chance by repeating the previous "famous footballer"-line (presumably in the hope that Bohr would catch on, and agree with the King and get on with the introduction). Bohr replies again, that the King is mistaken, and the audience ends on a rather awkward note. Now, my issue with this is, that the line in the article ending with note 29 is begging for an explanation (which I give above). Now, this would constitute a long text on something rather irrelevant. So my proposal would be to remove the royal audience completely, or at least remove the "footballer"-reference.-- Nwinther ( talk) 14:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
There's a line in this section that says "sizeable contributions were also made by industry and private donors, many of them Jewish." Who are these private donors? Why is it relevant to mention that "many of them" were Jewish? Who were these Jewish contributors? Is it controversial for jews to donate money to institutes of physics? Were there religious, political or racial issues revolving around the institute that makes jewish contributions especially noteworthy?-- Nwinther ( talk) 14:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
This section has a line "In 1914, Carl Jacobsen, the founder of the Carlsberg breweries," Carl Jacobsen wasn't founder of, but heir to, the Carlsberg Breweries. He did found "Ny Carlsberg" which later became part of the Carlsberg Breweries, but the segment is misleading. Also, the term "Aeresbolig" is wrong. In the article it's written as if that's the name of the mansion, as if Aircraft Carrier was the name of USS Nimitz. In reality it's "Aeresboligen" and means "(the) honorary residence". In other words it's not the name of the house, but the function of the house! Rather than continuing to write "Aeresbolig" I find it more proper to write "honorary residence" in the beginning and just referring to is as "house" for the rest of the section.-- Nwinther ( talk) 14:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
French and Kennedy (1985) is an edited book. The citations in the articles should really be to the authors of the articles in the book, not to the editors. I will be adding the references to the individual articles. I don't know if I'll have enough time this morning to fix the cites (i.e. the names that appear in the footnotes) as well, but, if not, I will leave a list here of the footnote numbers and the corresponding individual article references. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
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help)Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Is this really helpful: "akin to planets around the sun" It seems to me that actually Rutherford proposed that. And one of Bohr's contributions was that it is misleading to compare electrons to planets. Beyondallmeaning ( talk) 05:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense to say he proposed the orbitals are discrete, and that it is like planets orbiting the sun. Propose taking out the planetary analogy. It might mislead readers. Beyondallmeaning ( talk) 01:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
What in the world is a radious? Did you mean radius? Headbomb { talk / contribs / physics / books} 13:54, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
"In 1921, the Dutch physicist Hendrika Johanna van Leeuwen would independently derive a theorem from Bohr's thesis that is today known as the Bohr–van Leeuwen theorem."
This does not make sense. She could not have independently derived the theorem from Bohr's thesis, only independently invent the same theory, which is what the Bohr–van Leeuwen theorem article says. This article also says that she developed it in her 1919 doctoral thesis. 1921 is the date of the journal publication. Dudley Miles ( talk) 14:58, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
The image in the infobox is not what I expected to see when I visited the article. Could a caption at least be included to note the image's relevance? -- Another Believer ( Talk) 16:25, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
This article is a perfect candidate for semi-protection. It has been a preferred target for vandalism and other sorts of edits (such as by those with a religious axe to grind). Coldcreation ( talk) 23:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I've re-phrased the "Meeting with Heisenberg" section; as written it was presenting Heisenberg's version of what happened as fact, which is a bit of a cheek in an article on Bohr. I think the best-known thing about this meeting is that we don't know what happened, and the text should reflect that. Xyl 54 ( talk) 23:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Dear Coldcreation, You have reverted my corrections to Bohr's Philosophy section. I have made every effort to comply with the Wikipedia guidelines, but if I have missed anything I would appreciate an openly voiced correction, rather than a silent deletion. As it currently is, the article grossly misrepresents a very important aspect of Bohr's life, and showing only one side of this issue violates every principle of honest representation. I would be happy to consider any specific and relevant criticisms on the matter, but for the integrity of the article and the quality of your own reputation it seems in your interest to undo this deletion for now. Thank you for your work. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 23:51, 28 November 2013 (UTC)BT
This is a discussion about the following sentence within the article: "Bohr's disagreements with the philosopher mostly stemmed from Bohr's atheism."
According to the article on atheism, a copious number of definitions exists for the term. They may include just about anyone: Lenin, Feynman, and Socrates, not to mention newborn children and Christians. Furthermore, this word is not only meaningless, it has strong cultural allusions, which mislead the reader to believe a thing which was not meant. Thus, in its present form it is an equivocation and should not be used without an explanation of what specifically is meant by it. Some author using a weasel word in his book does not justify it becoming a valid statement in Wikipedia, unless used as a direct quotation.
The referenced sources do not provide any sort of proof behind their claims relevant to this discussion. Bohr never called himself an atheist to my knowledge, and whoever called him that should have shown a detailed comparative analysis between Bohr's various statements and a rigorous definition of the word "atheist", if this labeling was to be considered a proof. Therefore, the sentence should be modified to reflect this important detail.
If atheism is juxtaposed to theism, then the mentioned statement is directly contradictory to Bohr's personally expressed view on "deep truths". Quotations: "the so-called 'deep truths', are statements in which the opposite also contains deep truth." [1] and "Contraria Sunt Complementia", at minimum, demonstrate the idea with precision, using nothing but primary sources, and must be mentioned next to the sentence in question.
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 02:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Regarding BijouTrouvailles statement: "The conversation that was cited is available here: http://www.edge.org/conversation/science-and-religion. Would you elaborate on the reasons as to why you think this may be original research?".
Reply: Because as a personal recollection of events by Heisenberg it is a primary source. It can at best be used to source claims made by Heisenberg about Bohr. To make any general claims based on that primary source would be to introduce your own personal interpretation of events. We would need a secondary source that contains such interpretations and claims for them to be acceptable for this article. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 15:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I have finally gotten a chance to bring up the cited references verbatim. Below is proof that the controversial statement in question is nothing but original research. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Stewart 2010, p. 416: "Part of this may have followed from Kierkegaard being a very avowed, yet rather circuitous proponent of a costly Christian faith, while after a youth of confirming faith Bohr himself was a non-believer."
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Faye & Folse 2010, p. 88: "Planck was religious and had a firm belief in God; Bohr was not, but his objective to Planck's view had no anti-religious motives"
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Aaserud & Heilbron 2013, p. 110: "Bohr's sort of humor, use of parables and stories, tolerance, dependence on family, feelings of indebtedness, obligation, and guilt, and his sense of responsibility for science, community, and, ultimately, humankind in general, are common traits of the Jewish intellectual. So too is a well-fortified atheism. Bohr ended with no religious belief and a dislike of all religions that claimed to base their teachings on revelations."
BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
With both the logical fallacy of the claim as it is and the clear evidence of liberal interpretation of secondary sources in view, I see no other choice but to remove the statement in question, replacing it with the direct citation from reference 1. It is the only source that pertains to the paragraph and citing it directly should prevent any careless, unsupported conclusions.
I would correct it to be the following way:
Comments, suggestions? BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
The citations given in the article are not (in my opinion) considered "original research" since they are cited by biographers of Bohr. Remember, Wikipedia says that original research is when "material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." (you can read more about it here: Wikipedia:No original research). It would be considered original research if a Wikipedian user typed his own opinion in an article that is not cited by any reliable source or by misusing a source. There are other citations that I could give you that state the Bohr was an "atheist":
1.) Simmons, John (1996). The Scientific 100: a rankings of the most influential scientists, past and present. Carol Publishing Group. p. 16. ISBN 978-0-8065-1749-0. "His mother was warm and intelligent, and his father, as Bohr himself later recalled, recognized "that something was expected of me." The family was not at all devout, and Bohr became an atheist who regarded religious thought as harmful and misguided."
2.) Larry Witham (2006). The Measure of God: History's Greatest Minds Wrestle with Reconciling Science and Religion. HarperCollins. pp. 138–139. ISBN 9780060858339. ""Bohr's atheism, the counterpiece of Einstein's monotheism, ... was more affined to traditional Far Eastern philosophy,” according to Stent. ...The young Bohr thus lived in two worlds, but mostly the cultural Christianity of the Danish middle class. As a young man, he had read Søren Kierkegaard, a fellow Dane and a Christian existentialist from the nineteenth century, with some enthusiasm. But he finally faced a religious crisis, and by the time he went to England to study physics, the idea of God had lost its appeal. The aim of life was happiness, he wrote his fiancée, making it impossible “that a person must beg from and bargain with fancied powers infinitely stronger than himself." ... In his only published paper on the topic of religion, Bohr spoke not of deities and doctrines but of psychological experience."
You can argue against these citations, however, I don't see much of a point of getting rid of the term "atheism". Would you like the word "atheism" to be changed to "non-believer"? I wouldn't mind you adding that Niels Bohr's quote on religion from Heisenburg. However, I feel that this topic isn't really worth debating about (since one good citation should suffice, let alone 3, 4 or 5). Try to contact other Wikipedian administrators on this talk-page if you feel that you need more evidence on this issue of original research. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thank you for your patience. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 19:12, 7 December 2013 (UTC) Ninmacer20 ( talk) 19:12, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Dear Ninmacer20, I am afraid that you didn't accurately read my arguments, else I haven't stated them clearly enough. As it is, the first half of your reply argues points I have already covered, and the first sentence is an outright straw man (undoubtedly unintended). To summarize: while I did argue against the usage of the term "atheist" as an equivocation, I have also demonstrated that interpretation of the sources brought up was erroneous.
About your question, "Would you like the word "atheism" to be changed to "non-believer"?", it seems that by itself this would be even more of an equivocation than "atheist". However, the word "non-believer" in the Stewart citation is part of a context that gives it a specific meaning of "Non-believer in Christian faith". The way I see it, since there is only one author that makes a statement about the nature of disagreement with K., it would be most graceful to present this statement as it is—as a direct quote.
About your other two citations. Unlike the first three, these two clearly opine that Bohr was an atheist, and if you wanted to make a paragraph that would present different opinions on Bohr's views on metaphysics and religion I think they would fit well there. Perhaps that same paragraph can contain the quote from the conversation with Heisenberg on religions and one with Einstein on deep truths. I just think that identifying "Non-believer in Christianity" with "atheist" or a nebulous "non-believer" is hardly appropriate, and even if there are other authors claiming that Bohr was an atheist, lumping all these different ideas into one statement about a very complex philosophy, is an inference not made by any of the secondary sources you have brought up, thus again original research.
I appreciate your patience as well, and I hope you will take no offense at my arguments against yours, especially since we seem to share a goal: to produce an informative and accurate presentation on one of the greatest figures in the history of science. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 20:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't worry about it. For now, just wait for other users on this board and see what they have to say. This may take awhile. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 06:05, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Friend, I have ordered the 2 other books you mentioned and must again bring up an inaccuracy in your reading. Witham quotes Stent saying that Bohr was an atheist. The author makes no such conclusion, in fact, his book book isn't even a tertiary source for such a statement. There aren't 3,4, or 5 good sources to call Bohr an atheist, as you've said, but so far only one bad source: Simmons' "The Scientific 100". "The reliability of a source depends on context", state the guidelines, and the context here is history and religion, neither of which are acknowledged areas of expertise for Simmons, who publishes mostly on the topic of investments; perhaps that explains why he makes no effort to support this claim. If you want to stake your reputation of objectivity on such low quality of information, I won't try to stop you, but I ask that even in your own interest you do so explicitly and in its own space, rather than hiding it within a different topic altogether.
It seems that no one else has any more objections to removing this contentious sentence. It has been a long time and a thorough debate, and I have demonstrated from every perspective the unsupported nature of the statement I argue to change: by the rules of Wikipedia, by the rules of logical argument, and by clear common sense. Ninmacer20, I truly appreciate all the research you've done for the article, but don't you think it is time to fix this one part so obviously erroneous already? BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 05:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty much tired of having this debate. Anyway, I can understand your concerns. Based on my other readings of Bohr, I think it pretty safe to say that Bohr was not religious or that he believed in a personal God (based on these sources):
1.) Niels Bohr: Atomic Theorist (2 ed.). Infobase Publishing. 2008. p. 37. ISBN 9780816061785. "Niels had quietly resigned his membership in the Lutheran Church the previous April. Although he had sought out religion as a child, by the time of their marriage he no longer “was taken” by it, as he put it. “And for me it was exactly the same,” Margrethe later explained. “[Interest in religion] disappeared completely,” although at the time of their wedding, she was still a member of the Lutheran Church. (Niels's parents were also married in a civil, not a religious, ceremony, and Harald also resigned his membership in the Lutheran Church just before his wedding, a few years later.)"
2.) "I feel very much like Dirac: the idea of a personal God is foreign to me. But we ought to remember that religion uses language in quite a different way from science. The language of religion is more closely related to the language of poetry than to the language of science. True, we are inclined to think that science deals with information about objective facts, and poetry with subjective feelings. Hence we conclude that if religion does indeed deal with objective truths, it ought to adopt the same criteria of truth as science. But I myself find the division of the world into an objective and a subjective side much too arbitrary. The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality. And splitting this reality into an objective and a subjective side won't get us very far." - Statements of Bohr after the Solvay Conference of 1927, as quoted in Physics and Beyond (1971) by Werner Heisenberg (from Wikiquote).
Anyway, would you like me to replaced the word "atheism" with "non-religious"? By the way, I don't see what is wrong with the word "non-believer". Even Einstein refer to himself as a "deeply religious nonbeliever". Being a non-believer does not necessary mean being an atheist. I'm only saying this because the only citation that states about Bohr's disagreements with Kierkegaard refer to Bohr as a "non-believer". Ninmacer20 ( talk) 08:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Respectfully, if you are tired of this debate you can always concede to replacing the original statement with the direct quote, as I ask, otherwise you are taking the responsibility to carry on until an understanding is reached. It is a complicated work for both of us, but what other civilized way can there be?
"Non-believer" of the quote means "Non-Christian", within the context. Also notice how carefully Peterson puts it: "Part of this may have followed...", and contrast that with: "...stemmed mostly from...". We don't know what these disagreements were, historians have only guessed and may never know, and it is wrong to mislead the reader to believe otherwise. I fail to see what is wrong with quoting Peterson directly, but if you dislike that stylistically for some reason, how about we replace the statement with this: "Part of it may have stemmed from Bohr's disagreement with Christianity [Stewart ref]"? I don't think that in this case "may have followed" would be a weasel phrase because there is no other way to express the highly hypothetical nature of this conclusion yet still relay the idea while remaining true to the source. Is that acceptable to you? BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 09:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
BijouTrouvaille, I'm willing to accept your advice in referring to the author and his quote within the article itself. Just wait until there is a consensus so that other Wikipedia users are satisfy with the edit as well. Remember, Wikipedia is made up of a community of users that allows almost anyone (with evidence) to have a say in their criticism. Sometimes, I had to wait for more than a month until I could requested a similar edit like yours as well. Thank you for your patience. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 17:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
The "event" that I mean is to wait for other Wikipedia users to agree to the change on the edit. For example the Wikipedia user, Saddhiyama, made a recent comment (a day before you made this message) about his/her issues with this topic. We have to finish this debate with him/her (and possibly others) before we can proceed onward. Even if we both agree to a change in the "Bohr's disagreements with Kierkegaard" sentence, we must allow others to have a say before we can make an edit. I'm not saying we should wait for another month but if any other user doesn't make any other concerns in next 10 days, we can assume that most users consent to our wishes. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 20:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the unsupported statement. If someone has a new source that unambiguously proves that "Bohr's disagreements with the philosopher mostly stemmed from Bohr's atheism", they may discuss it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BijouTrouvaille ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Ninmacer20, you have undone the deletion by stating that "references are provided", yet the references provided do not support the phrase. The phrase has to be removed and it is not my responsibility to replace it. I did offer two other possible solutions, and they were rejected based on arguable grounds. You are welcome to continue the debate where it was left off, if you wish, however, I see no reason to keep the unsourced statement in the article in the meantime—it has been debated thoroughly. BijouTrouvaille ( talk)
The reason why I undid your edit was because I wanted to rephrase that sentence based on the citations given, not to remove it. I also didn't want to re-add those citations again. However, in order to rephrase that sentence, I must have approval from the Wikipedia community first. For example, I'd at least rephrase the sentence (that you previous removed) into something like this: "Bohr's biographer, "Insert Biographer's name", believes or infers Bohr's disagreements of Kierkegaard's philosophy due to Bohr's being non-religious." It's not a good sentence, however, this allows other users to (at very least) improve or replaced on the sentence that was given. I hope this debate is resolved as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 04:53, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I am okay with the procedure, although you may have noticed that it has come to a stalemate. I can not think of a better way to rephrase than, "Bohr's biographer Peterson suggests that Bohr's disagreements with K. stem from his disagreement with Christianity." That would be the most inclusive and minimal interpretation of the text that does not ignore the context. This would be the most inclusive because Buddhism, atheism, and Deism fall into the "disagreements with Christianity" category. Peterson assumes that the disagreements were on a religious basis, but what could they be? They were *at least* about K's Christianity according to the author, and I doubt that we can come to an agreement on any more than that.
I do not think "non-religious" is correct here because K. was not religious in the sense of belonging to an organized religion, and they both were probably fairly religious in the sense of Einstein's "cosmic religious feeling", or maybe not, we can't know that one; there are also other senses. I understand your intention, but I do not see how this word can fit here. Non-believer also seems bad. Out of context this word can be used to present a very specific dogma that has little if any epistemological value, but in any other context the word takes meaning from it, and we are taken back to the question of which one. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 22:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any problems with either statement from both you or BijouTrouvaille, they are both fine. However, I'd like to see other Wikipedia users commented on this issue. The reason being that are some other users that may disagree/reject with our statement. We should at least gain approval from one administrator before we make any changes to the article. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 23:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I see no problems with Djr32's version, save a minor thing in that Richard Peterson is the biographer, with Stewart being the editor who collected this and other essays into a book. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 04:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Okay good, we seem to be in some agreement with Djr32's rephrase sentence. Djr32 could rephrase the sentence if he/she wished. Ninmacer20 ( talk) 04:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Blatant disrespect of other editors by using personal attacks, spurious arguments, and posts designed to provoke, completely disregarding the rules of conduct here at W., clearly mark user Tarl.Neustaedter as a troll. Please search for his name on this page for many examples of this. BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 03:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Article changed as agreed. To preserve references, I'm pasting the original below.
Bohr's disagreements with the philosopher mostly stemmed from Bohr's [[atheism]].{{sfn|Stewart|2010|p=416}}{{sfn|Faye|Folse|2010|p=88}}<ref>{{harvnb|Aaserud|Heilbron|2013|p=110}} "Bohr's sort of humor, use of parables and stories, tolerance, dependence on family, feelings of indebtedness, obligation, and guilt, and his sense of responsibility for science, community, and, ultimately, humankind in general, are common traits of the Jewish intellectual. So too is a well-fortified atheism. Bohr ended with no religious belief and a dislike of all religions that claimed to base their teachings on revelations."</ref> BijouTrouvaille ( talk) 09:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
References
It's important to list Niels Bohr as a Sephardic Jew in terms of ethnicity and heritage, not in terms of religion. Understanding his heritage as a Sephardic Jew is an important part of understanding his Danish heritage, insofar as the Sephardic diaspora had a cultural center in Glucksberg for over 300 years. In other words, it's important to show that he was of a very old line of Spanish Jews who arrived in Denmark after the Expulsion of the Jews of Spain. Traditions in science within the Sephardic community would have influenced his cultural experience as a scientist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SephardicScholar ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Because Sephardic culture also has an epicenter in London, with influential roles throughout the British Empire, it's plausible that his Sephardic heritage prompted his study at Victoria University. Indeed all other biographies of this great Sephardic thinker mention that he came from Sephardic stock, including The Men of Manhattan: Creators of the Nuclear Era By Jeffrey Strickland and a separate online biography from McGill University. It was indeed important enough to list on those biographies and would certainly give context and definition to the character of this great thinkers mind, just as the Zionist and other Jewish contextual components of Albert Einstein are a part of our understanding of his contributions. His being Sephardic is a matter of ethnicity, his genetics, his community, which are important for individuals researching this great man to know and understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SephardicScholar ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
It belongs in this article because it has been cited in other biographical statements per the lineage of his mother, Adler, which gives definition to his Jewishness that should be clear and not vague. Why does his Jewishness belong in this article but any point eschewing vague statements per such Jewishness deemed in your opinion incongruous with this article's content? This is a simple biographical statement found in all other biographical statements once can find from highly reputable sources like the National Science Foundation and McGill University. The more biographical information pulled from these sources, which give insight into this great scientists origins, just as any other biographical description (some of which on Wikipedia even go into the grandparents' lineage) -- the better the biography on this page will be. Otherwise, I will delete any mention of his Jewishness, provided that the specific context of such Jewishness is described in other biographies -- most likely as a point of clarity per family communities, not to convey any religious or social cause on his part. Even the word Sephardic simply means Spanish or Spaniard in Hebrew, which is a geographical clarification. There should be no issue in stating that he was a Spanish Jew, just as any other article about a Jewish person on Wikipedia states if the person was a Polish Jew or a Bulgarian Jew. The country of origin for a Jew is often a complex thing, especially with Sephardic Jews who typically found a secondary mother land after the expulsion. For this reason, someone like Isaac Disraeli could be described as a British-Sephardic writer. Sephardic being the underlying tradition and scope of Jewishness and the British prefix giving further detail as to the relocation of the particular line after the Expulsion. This is a point of accuracy, to give a more accurate and clear picture into Bohr's Jewishness from a simple biographical perspective. There is no agenda herewith, merely a point that should be clear and accurate if the distinction of "Jew" should made at all in discussing Bohr's life. Some months ago, I didn't notice Niels Bohr's page here as stating that he was Jewish at all. Perhaps we should remove this qualifier overall -- otherwise, it is indeed more accurate to give geographical context to his Jewishness. Sephardic is not a "variant," that is a strange way of putting this diasporic term. Spain is a country just as Poland is a country. Why can we not mention the country from which the tradition of Jewishness he had in his lineage stemmed? Righting a great wrong on your part would be conceal his maternal family's origin in Spain to keep his image more Danish or more Ashkenazic, boosting the image of the Ashkenaz in light of the great wrongs done to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SephardicScholar ( talk • contribs) 05:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Did he ever receive US citizenship? -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 17:24, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Forgive my ignorance, but I got the impression years ago the Bohr was in fact quite reluctant to be spirited to the UK to aid British/Allied research efforts during the war. In fact, I thought that he had to be practically forced into the Mosquito. Can anyone enlighten on this, and if so, can it be included in the article? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isoruku ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
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My suggestion is that Niels Bohr not be categorized as an athlete. Perhaps a scientist? 75.134.106.2 ( talk) 23:16, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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As an Knight of the Elephant in Denmark, he should be referred to has "his Excellency, Niels Bohr" and have the suffix "RE" this is in keeping with other Knights such as Maersk Mc-kinney Moller. 87.49.190.121 ( talk) 15:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Things sometimes "creep in" so would someone look at the "Further reading" and "External links" for possible integration or trimming? 3 to 5 (four to five as possible exceptions) seems to be a "reasonable number", and of course there can be exceptions, but 16 links between the two sections starts looking like link farming. Otr500 ( talk) 16:22, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
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In the introduction: "Bohr mentored and collaborated with physicists including Hans Kramers, Oskar Klein, George de Hevesy, and Werner Heisenberg." His PhD student Lev Landau should be added to the list, as one of the most famous physicists of the 20th century (see his wiki page) and a Nobel laureate -- far more famous than all mentioned save for Heisenberg. 2601:182:D041:3E0A:7DFD:B483:D2A0:D934 ( talk) 15:49, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Astounding and unacceptable that there is no section on (indeed, not even a mention of) the Copenhagen Interpretation, and more generally no discussion at all of the foundations of quantum mechanics. --- Dagme ( talk) 02:33, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
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Under § Later years, there is a reference linking to Bohr's coat of arms:
<ref>{{cite web |title=Bohr crest | publisher=University of Copenhagen | date=17 October 1947 | url=http://www.nbi.dk/hehi/logo/bohr_crest.png | accessdate=16 March 2007}}</ref>
This link is now dead, and should be replaced with an archived version:
<ref>{{cite web |title=Bohr crest | publisher=University of Copenhagen | date=17 October 1947 | url=http://www.nbi.dk/hehi/logo/bohr_crest.png | accessdate=9 September 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190502082514/https://www.nbi.dk/hehi/logo/bohr_crest.png |archive-date=2 May 2019}}</ref>
Thank you. 104.246.223.200 ( talk) 21:07, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
In this Niels Bohr article I realized that the name George de Hevesy isn’t put in as a link when this article mentions his name when he was searching for element 72. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HarryPotter102 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Please add tag Category:Jewish Danish scientists to this article so that it appears on the Danish Jews by Occupation: Scientists page. Thank you. Deborah Dinzes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:9c00:1a4:c8a5:781c:59d8:d7dc ( talk) 21:15, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
As Karen Barad [1] [2] and others [3] and [4] write, Bohr directly did NOT embrace Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and Heisenberg himself admitted his philosophical misstep with this categorization within what is called 'the problem of the observer', or the 'psycho-physical' (Pauli/Jung) [5] also [6] problem. Instead Bohr proposed 'Indeterminacy' which is an ontological category rather than an epistemological one, saying essentially nature is what is fundamentally indeterminate. Uncertainty refers to the agential observer's capacity, and is an epistemic category. The differences are profound. Bohr's 'philosophy' section could use some serious attention as he was known as a physicist-philosopher' rather than merely having had developed the atomic model, and his philosophy still resonates through many fields and disciplines today.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joldt ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
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Niels Bohr (7 October 1885 – 18 November 1962) was a Danish physicist who made foundational contributions to understanding atomic structure and quantum theory. He advanced the theory of electrons travelling in orbits around the atom's nucleus, with the chemical properties of each element being largely determined by the number of electrons in the outer orbits of its atoms. He introduced the idea that an electron could drop from a higher-energy orbit to a lower one, in the process emitting a quantum of discrete energy. For his work, he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1922. Photograph credit: Bain News Service; restored by Bammesk
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Add in the infobox: |module= {{Infobox football biography |position = [[Goalkeeper (association football)|Goalkeeper]] |youthyears1 = |youthclubs1 = [[Akademisk Boldklub]] |years1 = 1905 |clubs1 = [[Akademisk Boldklub]] }} 73.162.91.15 ( talk) 21:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
The section Early years says: "the second of three children of Christian Bohr, a professor of physiology at the University of Copenhagen, and Ellen Bohr from the wealthy banking family." That's not quite true. I therefore propose, if someone has a good source to support it with, something like "the second of three children of Christian Bohr, a professor of physiology at the University of Copenhagen, and Ellen Bohr, née Adler, from a wealthy Jewish banking family." (Or without the "Jewish"; but it was probably relevant in the society of that time and would certainly be relevant later). 151.177.56.148 ( talk) 02:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Regarding one of Bohr's sons, there is an error in spelling of the word "institution". It was wrongly typed as "instution". 37.151.190.5 ( talk) 18:45, 21 March 2023 (UTC)