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WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 18:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Why is Roxon being singled out for criticism here? Unless she was the architect of the policy - which this doesn't say - she'd just be following the party decision. Are we going to add similar paragraphs for almost every single federal MP? Ambi 09:18, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
She is the shadow Attorney and was thus responsible for the decision, which she announced before the matter had been to Caucus. And the article doesn't in fact criticise her - it reports that others did so, which is true. Adam 09:25, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This statement might be appropriate in a lengthy article on Roxon. As the one description of a position she has taken in 8 years in Parliament it is POV.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.143.20.105 ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 5 August 2006 (ACST).
My edits concerning Nicola's Jewish father are constantly removed. I have advised the news department of a major media in Australia of anti-semitic behavior. This is to be discussed not constantly reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.192.195 ( talk) 12:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I have asked this page to be protected after 'threats to my IP' by user KnowledgeOfSelf if I continue to bettle against his constant anti-semitic reversions. 149.254.192.195 ( talk) 13:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#.7B.7Bla.7CNicola_Roxon.7D.7D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.192.195 ( talk) 13:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The anon IP, under the pathetic guise of anti-semitism, keeps re-adding Roxon's religion. None of the other cabinet ministers have their religion listed, and despite multiple users reverting the anon IPs edits, he ignores the fact he now needs consensus before re-adding. Gain consensus or be blocked. Timeshift ( talk) 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It is referenced now. I thought it was deleted earlier because it was not referenced. I see no reason why religion should not be mentioned for politicians. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I see you have deleted the shorter version of the IPs editors. I think there is a need for compromise here. The reference on Roxon's Jewish Heritage is saying something important, but it may not of course mean that she is jewish, but just had a jewish father. Could we leave religion out of the infobox and add something in the main part of the article about the influence of her father on her life? I may have a COI here, as I know Nicola as my MP and worked for her as a volunteer in the last election. I will not add this to the article. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, add it to the body (not the lead) of the article. But multiple people disagree to adding it to the infobox, where no other cabinet ministers have it. Thus it cannot be added to the infobox without consensus. Timeshift ( talk) 00:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Reading the comment in 'anti-semitic edits' it is quite clear that the people who contribute ( Timeshift or his mates/sockpuppets) constantly removed edits related to her father for a 3 month period. I think that is very wrong. What's wrong with having a Jewish father? Can anyone explain why a number of people were unable to include this information? GaryGazza ( talk) 08:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
So the edits just removed themselves for a three month period and people who added her father's details had their IP's threatened? Strange that you are the only person in this discussion who wanted to remove any relation to the jewish faith. Also, strange you are also the only person to campaign for the site to be protected without the reference to the father. Also strange it is still protected now and no reference to her jewish father can be added. Maybie I'm annoyed by the 3 month campaign against the incusion of her father. So who is responsible and why hasn't the comment been added. Unprotect the page, apologise and add the comment and that is the end. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I was scanning some polititions sites on wiki and came accross this one. Taking an impartial look I've noted the following:
1. Reading the above it seems the only person objecting to adding Jewish to the template is Timeshift. Also, timeshift has been the only one pushing for the removal of all references to her parents. Timeshift is also solely responsible for pushing the admins to block edits.
It is my opinion that only one user Timeshift does not want her Jewish religion added. One user is not a majority.
2. As a standard template used for polititions on wiki, religion has been approved for incusion in articles. One would assume that as long as it is sourced as much information should be included. I personally feel religious views have played a big part in Australian politics [Tony Abbott] is one example.
3. It seems her parents and their influence on her have been completly removed as her father is Jewish.
Could we refer this to a non-biased admin for comment. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not involved in Australian politics and feel that there is a strong 'party' line in the above comments. Why does wiki have templates for polititions if the members of the polititions political party can pick and choose what to include in the article.
As far as I can tell WIKI template includes religion, religion influenced her early life. Thus it should be included, they made the template for a reason.
That being said, I feel that a short paragraph should be immediately added commenting on her Jewish father and her Jewish religion. Time shift is the only person disputing this.
I then ask a non-labour party admin to look at this issue. Looking at the history it seems when someone added the Jewish background it was removed as vandalism by admins who are part of the labour party. That is borderline racist. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Bduke hit the nail on the head. What influenced her does not make it her religion. Thanks! Timeshift ( talk) 11:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no need for personal insults from a group of ALP supporters. All I asked for was an unbiased opinion. Nicola is Jewish and that is important. A person's religious views shape their views. I again ask for unbiased people ( ie. non-alp supporters) to contribute. THis is not an ALP run website. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The above is a personal attack and I ask it to be removed. I do not use drugs. Timeshift you have conducted a personal campaign to remove Nicola's Jewish heritage. Clearly you are biased. I again request that the information be added and an unbiased admin be asked to join the discussion. Possibly also a member of the Liberal party to provide a counter argument to the total labour bias of the contributers to this article and Timeshifts vendetta against the inclusion of Jewish heritage and personal insults to me. GaryGazza ( talk) 12:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
So you are saying you will not move one inch concerning the adding of Nicola's father's influence and religion even if it is cited. Removing a cited reference constantly for 3 months because it is not part of the labour party line is bias. GaryGazza ( talk) 13:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Timeshift please return to rational discussion and sease your insults.
The article shows how strong her father was an influence to her life. I call for a line about Nicola's parents and her own heritage. If there is a line about her aunt I'm sure Nicola's fathers influence is credible. I ask timeshift to not immediatly revert this as she has done for the past 3 months. cited references are not vandalism. GaryGazza ( talk) 13:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please remove your alegations that my mispelling of your name was slander. As far as I can see the admins are saying to add the line about her Jewish father. This is contrary to your assertion that this was vanalism and you unilateral campaign for 3 months to remove references to her parents. I would actually call that vandalism
GaryGazza (
talk)
13:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There has been a silly edit war on this site for 3 months and you are the only person who reverted links to her parents. Clearly this must be an ALP fan site by your reckoning and you remove non-alp material. I don't even understand why being Jewish is an insult in your eyes. Anyway I have more better things to do than this. goodbye.
GaryGazza (
talk)
14:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just removed some more slander against me. GaryGazza ( talk) 15:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been asleep while you two have been hammering on. I hope you have both calmed down after sleeping yourself. There are two issue here:
Nobody is objecting to the first point. There is a source. Just do it. I have absolutely no objection to the second point, if and only if there is a source that shows that she self-identifies as Jewish. She may do that, or she may not. We do not really know. I only mentioned knowing her, as that had not given me any indication that she self-identifies as Jewish, but she could of course do so. It just reinforces the need for a source. Even being culturally Jewish passes from the mother, not the father, so the fact that her father was Jewish is not important. We just need a source. That is all and every admin on WP will agree with me. Please read the guideline on biographies of living persons. -- Bduke ( talk) 21:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Then why did you constantly revert the addition of her Jewish father, constantly removing the link? I really don't understand why being Jewish is so wrong for you that you constantly removed it. May I suggest someone add the info as the page is protected to prevent non ALP comment as far as I can see. GaryGazza ( talk) 09:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I have received a threat in my talk stating that I will be banned. Let me clarify.
I want the block to edits to be lifted so I can add infomation about Nicola's Jewish father.
Why has this not been done? Please advise why this in contrevention of T&C?
GaryGazza ( talk) 10:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You removed a reference to Nicola's father's faith which was not in contravention of wiki t&c's. You provided no explanation of why you did this. It is my opinion. The best way to resolve the matter is to add the line back concerning her father - but you got the page blocked to edits. I agree there should be nothing in the box. So why hasn't the line been added? GaryGazza ( talk) 11:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
what are you on about? Read the above I am talking about adding her father. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
, so unless you can provide a citation to show that she herself is jewish, then... oh we've been here a million times. you're just not listening.
You don't seem to have read my point above, it about adding the father - not her faith in the talkbox. Take a deep breath and read what I wrote again. Relax..... GaryGazza ( talk) 11:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
We've all stated we have no problems mentioning her father is jewish in the body of the text. And no I didn't get the page blocked, yet again you accuse me of things I have no part in. Stop your lies NOW. Timeshift ( talk) 11:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no need to overreact, there is life outside of wiki. What I said is true but if you agree that the line should be added please ask an admin to unblock the page.
And take a chill pill man! GaryGazza ( talk) 11:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added something about the influence of her father, but the reference (to an "AGE" article) which was the cite added earlier to justify the "Jewish" entry in the infobox, actually does not say he was jewish as far as I can see. Am I missing something there, or it is a another reference? -- Bduke ( talk) 11:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be her 'jewish' father. Then this sordid incident is over GaryGazza ( talk) 11:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Read what he typed - the ref says nothing about her father being jewish. Your contributions have been nothing short of disgraceful right throughout. Compare what you advocate now to what you originally advocated and it's very different. Nice shifting of the goalposts. Timeshift ( talk) 11:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit conflict. Where in that reference does it say he is Jewish? I just do not see it. Or do you have another reference. If so please add it. I have unprotected the article, but will keep an eye on it. It will get protected again if there is a war or a lot of edits that do not follow policies and guidelines. -- Bduke ( talk) 11:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.australiandoctor.com.au/news/ad/0c0483ad.asp GaryGazza ( talk) 11:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am happy with your edit. Please protect the page as timeshift is harping on about the 'jew' word being in the article. What is wrong with being jewish? I am proud to be a jew and hate racism GaryGazza ( talk) 12:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
My father is a Polish Jew and he just told me he feels your edit to be offensive. Polish Jew is used by Jews to refer to Poles who were jews ( just like Polish Catholic). Lets leave it like it is. It sounds better that way. Also why use 13 words when you can use 2 ( remember english class) As far as I can see if we leave it like it is now I am happy and this whole sorid incident is over. Lets end it.
GaryGazza (
talk)
12:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Offended? Hilarious. I will revert and keep reverting as polish 'jew' is non-encyclopedic and can be considered pejorative. Jewish man of polish descent. If that's offensive, then I agree with the comment above... Timeshift ( talk) 12:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Finally this has all been (forcefully) ended. I just want to again note that all of the user's accusations against me are untrue, and to read the entire talk page, should anyone question my position on any of this whatsoever. I am not anti-semitic and have only wanted the page to be correct. Timeshift ( talk) 13:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh this is priceless... aparently this account was blocked by timeshift. Looking at nicola Roxon I see that the changes the user was blocked for were actually added after other users complained about timeshift??!!?? The user of this IP added that she had a jewish grandfather and was blocked. So the whole of T-mobile is blocked because Timeshift didn't like a reference to a jewish grandfather that is referenced. Talk about delusions! Timeshift ( talk) 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Is her grandfather's religion really relevant to a biography about her? Will ( talk) 21:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am an Australian and my father was a Polish Jew. I disagree, her grandfather was a procticing jew who fled the holocaust. He instilled strong values to the family ( in the article) this is relevant. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I also lost relatives in the holocaust and my father was in Dachau. Polish Jew is the comon historical reference to the Jewish community in Poland. Her grandfather was the patriac of the family and influenced it enourmously. This is all silly edit waring but Polish Jew is correct. I'm not fighting against timeshift, I think that such a family history is worth mentioning. It plays an important role in the family - it is also quite cool. It is just that the wording of timeshift doesn't express it well and leads to confusion. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Just reviewing Timeshift's point, it seems he may well have a point re the character of this argument. It seems that the user has signed up to Wikipedia with the sole intent of asserting Roxon is Jewish. I had incorrectly assumed initially that the person was racist and attempting to brand her as Jewish as an insult, but it now appears the person is working from the other side and we're essentially looking at a conflict of interest situation. First the war was over whether her father was Jewish. Then it became over whether she was Jewish, which couldn't be proven, and repeated attempts to add this to the infobox despite a consensus to the contrary. Now it's her grandfather, based on a single line in one article. I can see the point Timeshift is making re the continual shifting of this argument. I would note that while single purpose accounts are not in and of themselves bannable, disruptive editing or possibly more correctly disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is. Orderinchaos 14:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Just because I feel that it is a good edit doesn't make me disruptive, this whole thing is childish. The edit doesn't make sence. Polish Jew was taken straight from the source ( with all the implications). The source was actually saying how cool Nicola's family history is. What is wrong with that? It is not disruptive as others agree with me. It is only timeshift who constantly replies in the negative. Bduke agrees, and timeshift comes in again.... GaryGazza ( talk) 15:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Whoa, what a strange discussion. I agree with Bduke and think that it is time to get back to normal. I have reverted to the consensus edit as it gives the ethnicity better and flows better. A number of articles I see in wiki use the word Jew. Timeshift, although I realize that accusations made against you are dubious - consensus is for the other edit. If you can provide evidence for this then we can change the edit. It is normal for wiki to take the consensus and edit wars are getting silly on this site
One concern I have is timeshift's edit is ambiguous. His edit does not make it clear that the grandfather was a practicing Jew who fled Poland before the holocaust.
195.75.78.206 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Timeshift, where is your consensus to edit the pager? Me, 195.75.78.206,Bduke have all made comments against your edit. Wiki doesn't put in new changes against a majority consensus. I am not a sockpuppet of Bduke. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not insulted, mate, but I did splutter into my early morning coffee. I want to make a number of points. First, I was criticized a few days ago for unprotecting the article. Perhaps that criticism was correct. Certainly the nonsense has returned. I fully support the current protection added by Orderinchaos. Second, I think Orderinchaos makes a good point in the section above this, that the sources are indeed rather weak. "Polish Jew" or "Polish man of jewish descent" both seem to have problems. Would "Pole who fled to Australia before the outbreak of World War II to avoid the persecution of Jews" be better? Thirdly, I am not going to edit this article, as I know Nicola as my member of the House of Representatives and at ALP functions. Fourthly, to GaryGazza, you do seem to be fixated on this article. I suggest you spend time on other articles and develop a better grasp of the policies and guidelines of WP. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
What a load of rubbish this is stacked full of ALP supporters who want to make this a propaganda piece. ALP propaganda isn't an reference, it is Spin.
It is sad that Nicola's grandfather had to escape such people only to find them in Australia.
I never knew the ALP was so anti-Jewish. GaryGazza ( talk)
So you are threatening to block me because I think that there is an ALP bias?
GaryGazza (
talk)
13:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to add scourced material that Nicola's grandfather a Polish jew escaping the holocaust strongly influenced her move into health. But timeshift has battled me all the way, threatening a one man campaign to remove reference to a great religion. personal attack removed. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
What's your problem mate? The fact that we've proven you wrong at every turn? First you're adament Roxon is jewish. Then her father. Then her grandfather. And it's been added to the page - The middle of three sisters, Roxon is the granddaughter of a Polish man of Jewish descent who fled to Australia before the outbreak of World War II and worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane. Accept you've been beaten at the acceptable game on wikipedia of WP:RS and move on. Timeshift ( talk) 14:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
FYI GaryGazza has been blocked for 100 hours, and I suspect the next time will be permanent. Timeshift ( talk) 17:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The Ropschitz family was all Jewish and from Lwow in Poland. Thus Nicola's father was Jewish ( pass from mother's side). I also feel Nicola's proper name Ropschitz should be added to information about the father. He anglicised the name to Roxon. GaryGazza ( talk) 18:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Search Preview Free Text nicola roxon and ropschitz Date All Dates Source All Sources Region All Regions No results.
Do you have something against saying 'Jewish' father. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
All sources are freely available in the wiki article Lillian Roxon. It seems to me that Jewish is fine for the decendants of the Roxon family, just needs to be hidden if you are in the ALP. What a great story, battelers coming to Australia and ending up in the health ministry. Shame to not say it. GaryGazza ( talk) 09:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Timeshift, The internet is not the only source that can be used, there are things called books. Read the firt chapter of this Milliken, Robert Mother Of Rock (Melbourne, Black Inc. 2002)
ISBN
1-86395-139-3 it clearly describes lillian's early life and the Jewish heritage. Source has been cited. Now stop removing her jewish heritage.
GaryGazza (
talk)
09:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope no one minds - as the second half of this thread is still live, and as part of my original post apepars to have been inadvertently deleted, I've re-added it and some subheadings to improve the fllow of discussion
GaryGazza, a couple of points in no particular order:
Okay. We're all in agreement that Roxon herself is either not Jewish, or not verifiably so? If that's the case we should all also be inagreement that the article cannot claim that she is, and this issue appears to be resolved. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
We still don't seem to have a source that verifies the claim that a Jewish ancestry has affected Roxon's political decisions or ideals. It might well be true, but without definitive statements in independent sources we cannot include it. Note that for a claim like this the statement must specifically' attest that Nicola Roxon herself has adopted policy stances because some of her relatives had a particular religion or experienced particular things. It is not enough to note that past family experiences would lead a reasonable person to pursue policy stances. The link must be direct and well-sourced. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
You indicate that there is a soruce for Roxon's father beign a major influence on her, but not why. If there isn;t a rource indicating he was a major influecne because of hisr eligion, then mentioning his religion in this context gives it undue weight. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
See "undue weight" above. If Roxon's father was particularly religious and he had a strong influence on Roxon herself, it might appear obvious that his religion was relevant. But without a soruce, this is a supposition and fails the original research test. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have read the first half of the book when I was in the state library and it clearly describes and cites all the information. From my experience you do not need to cite every single line. It is sufficient to leave a bibliography reference. I am more than happy if anyone ( except timeshift because of bias) read the first part of the book and confirm. It also shows the strong Jewish influence in the family. I think The fact that nicola's family were jewish refugies, set up lives in Australia etc. is important. At least worth two/three lines
GaryGazza (
talk)
10:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Gary, please post here in this section the precise wording you want to add to the article. Again, please make no personal comments about other users and discuss nothing on this talk page but the article content. Sarah 11:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I am busy this evening but will provide my idea for adding this new sourced material in the next few days. GaryGazza ( talk) 21:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
What page number of the book backs up your claim though? Forget the page for now and concentrate on which bit backs up your claims. Timeshift ( talk) 22:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The middle of three sisters, Roxon’s grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. Roxon was strongly influenced by her jewish father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[2]
Referenced from the first part of the book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 15:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
==> Jewish provides a continuation of the family history. It is sourced and provides an insight into the family background. Lillian Roxon had many encounters with her Jewishness in the book and so did Lillian's father
==> From the sourced articles Nicola was very clear that her father was a big influence in her life. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Having read the whole thing again, isn't this a lot of work for three lines that are sourced in a peer reviewed book and a number of newspaper stories? GaryGazza ( talk) 10:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
So what do we need to do:
1. The issue is the addition of Jewish infront of Nicola's father- lets debate this. 2. We can add everything else ( so lets do it ).
Gary GaryGazza ( talk) 11:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, all this text is a little confusing. What parts of the the text are at issue could you highlight?
The middle of three sisters, Roxon’s grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. Roxon was strongly influenced by her jewish father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[2]
GaryGazza ( talk) 12:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I have written history journal articles and referencing is in the bibliography unless there is a direct relevant quote or point of information that can't be explained in a bibliography. We can't reference every word.
1-4 referenced by the first chapter of the book. Her father was a pharmacist and then became a microbiologist until he died in the UK.
5: Her father is Jewish and an escapee from the holocaust, this is an important point and he is jewish.
My new wording:
The middle of three sisters, Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. Roxon was strongly influenced by her jewish father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 22:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. She is the middle of three sisters. Roxon was strongly influenced by her father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3]
I need to ref the first chapter as it proves a longer version of the history. It doesn't make sence to reference specific pages. Feel free to read the book and put in the more specific refs but a chapter ref is within wiki policy. I will not enter into the silly discussions below where someone thinks 1937 is 1932 and continues not to listen GaryGazza ( talk) 23:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
You have not read the source I have provided. This source was also verified by ther person who actually wrote the lillian roxon article. Maybie I have been harsh as I have family history that has done a staging post immigration at that time but I am concerned you are not acting in good faith. From the history of the time it is normal for people to emigrate in stages, especially jews. Please google Jewish immigration and provide sources that this is not the case as this is sourced.
204.4.130.140 (
talk)
09:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/23/1203467459974.html
Nicola was unable to get two weeks of to get married GaryGazza ( talk)
Link to prove her father is Jewish http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=290 —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree and have removed, edited the link. I was researching on the web and planning to edit in an hour. You beat me to it. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
There is calm now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
True, but edit waring has stopped and as long as things follow wiki policy edits should be allowed. That is wiki policy. There is no need to stifle the article. I'm sure you won't revert anything you don't like ( against policy) and I willnot put unsourced or irrelevent info ( against wiki policy) GaryGazza ( talk) 21:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I find the above comment inflamatory as it misrepresents me. I have sourced the first chapter of the book as it describes the story well. I suggest you read the first chapter. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
As a historian you above comment is wrong. Jews in Europe generally escaped the rise of facism - they did not have to just be in Germany. Think for a sec, you are in Poland and you think Hitler wants to invade so you move to Italy and try to move out of Europe from there as it has a port with access to the sea ( which poland didn't really have) and is more safe than poland. What other contraditions do you see? The contradition you cited is not a contradition but a misunderstanding of history. Jews fled Europe generally afraid of war not just those withing Germany's borders. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry but you are wrong, So you are saying the Jews were so stupid they would wait in Poland for Hitler to invade?!?!?!Hitler was seen in Europe in 1937 as dangerous and could invade Europe. Read about Winston Churchill, look at the published date of Mien Kamf, Annexation of Austria, military build up, threatening speaches by Hitler, look at Jewish immigration...your comments do not make sence. With regard to Italy, Poland had no real port ( Gdansk, Gdynia and Sopot possibly but not really ( read about them)) that was not controlled by the Nazi's. Many Poles travelled to Italy to leave as it had a non-German controlled port and Mussolini would allow them to leave the country. My father a Polish Jew left from an Italian Port in 1938. GaryGazza ( talk) 23:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ohh, I forgot a nationalist was in charge of Poland in 1937 - guess his name if you can it starts with P.. Poland was never commie until the soviets invaded. GaryGazza ( talk) 23:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you read the first chapter of the book and the other sources I provided. I am not going to argue with you if you do not read my sources. GaryGazza ( talk) 23:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The above problems were because someone thought 1937 was 1932. I feel that her family history is important and a line about her grandparents excaping the holocaust is relevent. https://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp is another ref. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 23:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. She is the middle of three sisters. Roxon was strongly influenced by her father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3]
https://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp and the first chapter of the book.
Hello, I am unhappy with your agressive tone. The link did not work properly there is not need to assume bad faith. I am trying to improve this article but you are being quite rude. Here is the proper link.
https://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=4364 GaryGazza ( talk) 09:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I will not enter into the above discussion. Please find my edit below:
Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. She is the middle of three sisters. Roxon was strongly influenced by her father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3]
Please comment on this edit only. Please read the sources I have provided before you comment as this is a policy of wiki. These sources were added to wiki by users other than myself too. I will not respond to bullying or disruptive edits which are from people who have not read the references. GaryGazza ( talk) 09:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Gary, I am a bit reluctant to enter this debate again, as you have raved on about ALP control and as far as I can see, I am the only ALP member (and with a direct connection to Nicola Roxon too) who has been involved here. I do have a conflict of interest. Nevertheless, I think the wording above is fine and your link in the section above is important. Nevertheless, you do have an over strident tone and do not seem to have done your homework on wikipedia policies. Orderinchaos is an Australian administrator with a great deal of experience and he really is trying to help. Just calm down and work with him. -- Bduke ( talk) 10:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your response, I was simply concerned that he did not read my sources. I am toning it down. Considering the addition is sourced and you agree I suggest adding it unless someone can disagree ( after reading all sources). GaryGazza ( talk) 10:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
It has been two days with no dissent. I call to add the above text immediatly.
GaryGazza (
talk)
17:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Where is this email, as such you above comment is unsourced. GaryGazza ( talk) 17:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
She may not ascibe to the faith but she campainged and publically pleged a strong allegence to Isreal. This should be included. I agree with Gnangarra, this is an important point. GaryGazza ( talk)
How about this for an edit? (The occupation issue still needs resolving but I'm happy to work with this as a draft and figure the other part out later) The content is the same but the flow is improved.
Orderinchaos 04:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Roxon is the middle of three sisters and is also the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] Her parents, Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists, and her Jewish[5][6][7] father was a strong influence in her life. She was devastated by his death when she was 10 years old, and ultimately came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3] Although Roxon does not identify as a Jew, her family's Jewish background has influenced her. She has stated publicly her strong sympathy with Israel - she visited the country in 2003, and is a member of the Labor Friends of Israel committee. [4]
[4] here [5] [2] [6] [3] Note Roxon's father was Jewish, just didn't got to synagogue. You can still be Jewish or say Catholic and not go to church/practice. [7] Roxon herself called her father a Polish Jew
Roxon clearly attributes an affinity to the Jewish community because of her father and others, it was a point she noted in her election campaign locally, as such it should be there. Her political views on Isreal are important as this is an important issue presently due to terrorism in Australia from groups that dispute Nicola's views. Also, a large amount of people in the party oppose her pro-Israel stance.
GaryGazza ( talk) 14:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Roxon clearly attributes an affinity to the Jewish community because of her father and others, it was a point she noted in her election campaign locally, as such it should be there. She has indicated this is one of her strong political views, she is even a member of a faction within labor that supports Israel. It is correct to include one line for a politition of they have a political view on a situation, especially if they officially are part of a faction that supports this. I have done a lot of research to see what factions etc. Nicola is in and this is one of them. This could be easily sourced by calling the labor group supporting israel. Either way is a politition is part of a faction and has been source to be a big supporter then this is relecant. In addition, wiki is not for putting in what a politition tells us to put in. There is a strong source showing that Roxon was emphatic in supporting Israel because of her background. Just because she would prefer something else doesn't mean it isn't true. Adolf Hitler would disagree with his wiki entry. As you and timeshift are in personal contact with Roxon and obviously don't like me that much, there is some bias here. I suggest other users pitch in and we take on board what they say. My edit adds sourced information that is relevant.
The question should be add that Nicola is a member of the Labor Friends of Israel committee and that she has been quoted during the election campaign as saying she has a strong sympathy with Israel. This was part of her presentation to the public of what she stands for. This also neatly ties in with her Jewish background and leaves the reader with how her family effected her political views.
GaryGazza ( talk) 00:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. As a member of the Labor Friends of Israel committee that is a clear ( very clear) statement that she supports Isreal. Are you saying that is speculation? Roxon clearly attributes an affinity to the Jewish community because of her father and others, it was a point she noted in her election campaign locally, as such it should be there. She is also quoted as saying she supports isreal because of her family background.
Secondly I accepted your proposal wholeheartedly except I added the new line because another user Gnangarra suggested it and we both feel it is relevant. There was nothing wrong with your proposal it's just there was some more info we tracked down and I added a line. If fact I could say that you are not considering my proposal and the idea of Gnangarra.
There is nothing personal here...I've done research and come up with relevant information.
GaryGazza ( talk) 00:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just want to confirm that the information is correct, do you have a problem with that? If so then I would say you are lieing my 5 sources are correct. I believe you though, just need to see proof please email this info. Do you have anything to hide?
GaryGazza (
talk)
11:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
We then have a great welter of speculation about how any of this influenced Roxon's decision-making, whether Roxon supports Israel and if so why, and whether she attended Michael Danby's wedding and if not why not.
It is surely time to bring this to a close. In the interests of resolving discussion, I suggest we adopt the wording proposed by Orderinchaos above as a consensus proposal:
Roxon is the middle of three sisters and is also the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her paternal grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] Her mother Lesley trained as a pharmacist, while her father Jack was a microbiologist. He was a strong influence in her life and she was devastated by his death from cancer when she was 10 years old. Roxon ultimately came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[1]
Support or opposition welcome. Euryalus ( talk) 01:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Sources (the same as used in the current article):
1.
Niece of Lillian Roxon, and the quote relative to her father's death
2.
Grandfather Jewish and a GP in Gympie and Brisbane
There are some additional sources for these points further up this page, but these two seem adequate for the limited claims being made by this wording.
Euryalus (
talk)
01:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Please send me a copy of Nicola's email to you regarding her viewpoint. After I verify that it is actually in existance I should be able to confirm.
<blank email>addr blanked you should enable email in your preferences 121.221.84.238 ( talk) 10:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
GaryGazza ( talk) 09:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just wish to confirm your statements, please email me this email. I have done a lot of work researching this article and want to make sure you are telling the truth. I have updated my preferences to have email, please email me. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I am willing to comprimise but I must see the source email as it is improtant to your case. I provided you with 5 sources and you have justified that they are wrong. I need to see this. Either email it to me or post it here. I provided all info to you. GaryGazza ( talk) 12:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
See below:
Correct, we also have an email from her office confirming that she does not ascribe to any faith. The non-practicing Christian bit has also been provided to us - she certainly did not grow up in the faith, although her father's views and values may well have been inspired by his own heritage in Judaism. That much is getting into OR, though. (Any point in looking up the 1975-1977 electoral roll to clarify occupations? I'll be in Melb again in just over a month) Orderinchaos 04:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Please provide this email.
GaryGazza ( talk) 15:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not accept your offer as I see a perceived bias and it is as if mates are ganging up. You can remove any personal info from the email. It is a source and I do not believe you....if you she wrote about her Jewish background it isn't personal. Also, there are 5 sources that disagree with your comments and they are public - sorry I need evidence to believe you. GaryGazza ( talk) 18:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Strange, I thought you were genuine but something is fishy...you don't want to present the email...hmmmmm..... GaryGazza ( talk) 19:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have seen the e-mail from Nicola Roxon's constituency office. I can confirm that it comes from one of her staffers in her office whom I know and trust. It say what OiC says above - "Ms Roxon does not self identify as Jewish". It is not proper to post this e-mail and this should be the end of it. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
That email has nothing to do with her father. All the sources say he is Jewish. GaryGazza ( talk) 20:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
This article has banned all mentions of Roxon's political views. Her views on Gay marriage, her membership of the Israel comittie....hmmm me thinks the labor party contols this article. One would think her politics and things she campaigned with should be added. Of course, even if there are five sources that quotes that she supports Isreal because of her Jewish heritage an unknown and hidden email among labor supporters prohibits its inclusion. Post the email in it's entirity here. Blank out the personal stuff...Of course because I don't support labor I'm not alowed to post. Why can't we add her political views and memberships in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have started a new section, it is very confusing and I ask that you re-input your ideas below so I can answer them. GaryGazza ( talk) 20:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not support any political party. She is a vocal suporter of Isreal and is a member of labor friends of Isreal. I believe that is a political view. Isreal is in the news on a daily basis and she is sourced in 2 sources to be a vocal supportor. Why can't a line be included? GaryGazza ( talk) 08:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
She is a memer of the Labor Friends of Isreal. I am looking to cooperate here. A politition that joins a commitie and campaigns with this should have this in her article. What source do you require and I will get one that is not from a Jewish newspaper. By the way the jewish newspaper in question is a non-partisan news paper. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I am serious in improving this article and will not respond to any comments not related to this. Please state your specific concerns after this message and I will respond. The above is much too confusing.
1. Your text related to her Jewish family background should be added as it is agreed. My only concern now is that it implies that Roxon's father is not Jewish, was not born in Poland and did not escape the Nazis. This is sourced in the book. Not a major issue but .
2. From my perspective, an wiki entry about a politician should include their political views that they have expressed over their career. She is known in the Jewish community for her support of Israel and membership of the labour pro-Israel group.
* Sources - we need non-biased sources to prove her committee membership and view on the issue. * Wording, I'm sure it is possible to word this in a way that doesn't misinterpret her views. *Relevance: Israel/Palestine is a major international issue and she is a member of the Australian government who has influence on our foreign policy.
3. Gay Marriage : Reading through Age articles this has generated press coverage and is a political view. It should be added as it is relevant. She has a view on a contentious issue, she was publicly debated on this issue, she has been forced to change her view.
See this link, she really pissed off the party: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/10/1092102440370.html
Please add issues that you see and lets work together to improve this article. No more nonsense just serious points. Also, a little fair play here please the treatment I have received was heavy handed. I will only respond to comments about the article. GaryGazza ( talk) 15:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for discussing the article, I think the edit as it is is fine. Your comments make sence but it really has been argues to death.
Anyone can add their thoughts on issues 2 and 3? GaryGazza ( talk) 22:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I've provided 10 sources for the four lines. Florrie, am happy to discuss though. Have you read all the sources, they are pretty direct. That is a lot of sourcing for four lines.—Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) diff
Florrie, Roxon in her speech to parliament said her father death had a significant influence on her we may need to reword if this isnt being conveyed. Gary your right this has been discussed to death, the current has content has consensus(consensus doesnt need 100% support). IMHO the discussions have become so circular that everybody has reached a point where they are exhausted and no longer consider alternatives. I suggest that the article be left as is for a month or so(this discussion is here so readers can see all POV) let people research maybe additional sources will become available, remember consensus can change. Gnan garra 02:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, we should add sourced and relevant material. You can't arbitrarily say 2months for a new addition. We must draw a line and there is sufficient sourcing and approval to add the test as it is now. Also the article as it is is wrong.
Also, please discuss issues 2 and 3.
GaryGazza (
talk)
08:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
1. As stated previously you are receiving messages from Nicola's staffers in relation to this article. I think that is a slight bias. This is not a personal attack, but it is against wiki policy to have the person in the article edit it as far as I know. Please respond to this instead of deleting this. Please do not threaten me as I am right to ask this.
My concern is that it appears that this staffer is a friend of him. Why would a staffer write a 'personal' email with reference to this article if there wasn't a relationship between the two parties. He also has been responsible for 45% of the responses here. Considering this relationship ( perceived or otherwise) maybie it is best he stepped back from the discussion for a while to let other uses express their opinions without undue influence. Bduke you did the same thing because you are a Labor party member I'd expect him to do the same. There was also no need to send thretening messages to my talk board for a genuine request for clarification. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying, I withdraw my claim of bias. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
2. The wording has been agreed, please respond with your reasons for waiting 2 months to add sourced information and leave incorrect information in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 09:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
New evidence has come to light that suggests this debate will soon be over and the article can (hopefully) be unprotected. Orderinchaos 11:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Do tell...I hope you are not trying to get me blocked like all yor threats on my talk page. I have only asked you for clarification that this contact was not your friend. Can you stop treatening me and just add points to this article.
Can we add she is a member of the labor friends of Isreal comittie? There is a section where she lists her memberships. Please list your reasons.
GaryGazza ( talk) 11:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to oficially state I did not start editing until this year. It is quite clear this admin works for Nicola Roxon or is being the mouthpiece of her. Sad really, how labor works. I have sent a number of emails to the Jewish groups who wrote those sources. They will return to get rid of the labour bias and bullying. It is like the communists, either agree or get killed off. GARYGAZZA —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
149.254.192.195 (
talk)
20:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
One acronym - LOL!!! Karma is a female dog. As for the ad hominem attack 'sad really, how labor works' it just shows that yet more labor slagging is based on accidental or deliberate ignorance. Timeshift ( talk) 22:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 18:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Why is Roxon being singled out for criticism here? Unless she was the architect of the policy - which this doesn't say - she'd just be following the party decision. Are we going to add similar paragraphs for almost every single federal MP? Ambi 09:18, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
She is the shadow Attorney and was thus responsible for the decision, which she announced before the matter had been to Caucus. And the article doesn't in fact criticise her - it reports that others did so, which is true. Adam 09:25, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This statement might be appropriate in a lengthy article on Roxon. As the one description of a position she has taken in 8 years in Parliament it is POV.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.143.20.105 ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 5 August 2006 (ACST).
My edits concerning Nicola's Jewish father are constantly removed. I have advised the news department of a major media in Australia of anti-semitic behavior. This is to be discussed not constantly reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.192.195 ( talk) 12:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I have asked this page to be protected after 'threats to my IP' by user KnowledgeOfSelf if I continue to bettle against his constant anti-semitic reversions. 149.254.192.195 ( talk) 13:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#.7B.7Bla.7CNicola_Roxon.7D.7D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.192.195 ( talk) 13:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The anon IP, under the pathetic guise of anti-semitism, keeps re-adding Roxon's religion. None of the other cabinet ministers have their religion listed, and despite multiple users reverting the anon IPs edits, he ignores the fact he now needs consensus before re-adding. Gain consensus or be blocked. Timeshift ( talk) 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It is referenced now. I thought it was deleted earlier because it was not referenced. I see no reason why religion should not be mentioned for politicians. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I see you have deleted the shorter version of the IPs editors. I think there is a need for compromise here. The reference on Roxon's Jewish Heritage is saying something important, but it may not of course mean that she is jewish, but just had a jewish father. Could we leave religion out of the infobox and add something in the main part of the article about the influence of her father on her life? I may have a COI here, as I know Nicola as my MP and worked for her as a volunteer in the last election. I will not add this to the article. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, add it to the body (not the lead) of the article. But multiple people disagree to adding it to the infobox, where no other cabinet ministers have it. Thus it cannot be added to the infobox without consensus. Timeshift ( talk) 00:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Reading the comment in 'anti-semitic edits' it is quite clear that the people who contribute ( Timeshift or his mates/sockpuppets) constantly removed edits related to her father for a 3 month period. I think that is very wrong. What's wrong with having a Jewish father? Can anyone explain why a number of people were unable to include this information? GaryGazza ( talk) 08:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
So the edits just removed themselves for a three month period and people who added her father's details had their IP's threatened? Strange that you are the only person in this discussion who wanted to remove any relation to the jewish faith. Also, strange you are also the only person to campaign for the site to be protected without the reference to the father. Also strange it is still protected now and no reference to her jewish father can be added. Maybie I'm annoyed by the 3 month campaign against the incusion of her father. So who is responsible and why hasn't the comment been added. Unprotect the page, apologise and add the comment and that is the end. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I was scanning some polititions sites on wiki and came accross this one. Taking an impartial look I've noted the following:
1. Reading the above it seems the only person objecting to adding Jewish to the template is Timeshift. Also, timeshift has been the only one pushing for the removal of all references to her parents. Timeshift is also solely responsible for pushing the admins to block edits.
It is my opinion that only one user Timeshift does not want her Jewish religion added. One user is not a majority.
2. As a standard template used for polititions on wiki, religion has been approved for incusion in articles. One would assume that as long as it is sourced as much information should be included. I personally feel religious views have played a big part in Australian politics [Tony Abbott] is one example.
3. It seems her parents and their influence on her have been completly removed as her father is Jewish.
Could we refer this to a non-biased admin for comment. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not involved in Australian politics and feel that there is a strong 'party' line in the above comments. Why does wiki have templates for polititions if the members of the polititions political party can pick and choose what to include in the article.
As far as I can tell WIKI template includes religion, religion influenced her early life. Thus it should be included, they made the template for a reason.
That being said, I feel that a short paragraph should be immediately added commenting on her Jewish father and her Jewish religion. Time shift is the only person disputing this.
I then ask a non-labour party admin to look at this issue. Looking at the history it seems when someone added the Jewish background it was removed as vandalism by admins who are part of the labour party. That is borderline racist. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Bduke hit the nail on the head. What influenced her does not make it her religion. Thanks! Timeshift ( talk) 11:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no need for personal insults from a group of ALP supporters. All I asked for was an unbiased opinion. Nicola is Jewish and that is important. A person's religious views shape their views. I again ask for unbiased people ( ie. non-alp supporters) to contribute. THis is not an ALP run website. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The above is a personal attack and I ask it to be removed. I do not use drugs. Timeshift you have conducted a personal campaign to remove Nicola's Jewish heritage. Clearly you are biased. I again request that the information be added and an unbiased admin be asked to join the discussion. Possibly also a member of the Liberal party to provide a counter argument to the total labour bias of the contributers to this article and Timeshifts vendetta against the inclusion of Jewish heritage and personal insults to me. GaryGazza ( talk) 12:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
So you are saying you will not move one inch concerning the adding of Nicola's father's influence and religion even if it is cited. Removing a cited reference constantly for 3 months because it is not part of the labour party line is bias. GaryGazza ( talk) 13:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Timeshift please return to rational discussion and sease your insults.
The article shows how strong her father was an influence to her life. I call for a line about Nicola's parents and her own heritage. If there is a line about her aunt I'm sure Nicola's fathers influence is credible. I ask timeshift to not immediatly revert this as she has done for the past 3 months. cited references are not vandalism. GaryGazza ( talk) 13:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please remove your alegations that my mispelling of your name was slander. As far as I can see the admins are saying to add the line about her Jewish father. This is contrary to your assertion that this was vanalism and you unilateral campaign for 3 months to remove references to her parents. I would actually call that vandalism
GaryGazza (
talk)
13:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There has been a silly edit war on this site for 3 months and you are the only person who reverted links to her parents. Clearly this must be an ALP fan site by your reckoning and you remove non-alp material. I don't even understand why being Jewish is an insult in your eyes. Anyway I have more better things to do than this. goodbye.
GaryGazza (
talk)
14:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just removed some more slander against me. GaryGazza ( talk) 15:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been asleep while you two have been hammering on. I hope you have both calmed down after sleeping yourself. There are two issue here:
Nobody is objecting to the first point. There is a source. Just do it. I have absolutely no objection to the second point, if and only if there is a source that shows that she self-identifies as Jewish. She may do that, or she may not. We do not really know. I only mentioned knowing her, as that had not given me any indication that she self-identifies as Jewish, but she could of course do so. It just reinforces the need for a source. Even being culturally Jewish passes from the mother, not the father, so the fact that her father was Jewish is not important. We just need a source. That is all and every admin on WP will agree with me. Please read the guideline on biographies of living persons. -- Bduke ( talk) 21:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Then why did you constantly revert the addition of her Jewish father, constantly removing the link? I really don't understand why being Jewish is so wrong for you that you constantly removed it. May I suggest someone add the info as the page is protected to prevent non ALP comment as far as I can see. GaryGazza ( talk) 09:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I have received a threat in my talk stating that I will be banned. Let me clarify.
I want the block to edits to be lifted so I can add infomation about Nicola's Jewish father.
Why has this not been done? Please advise why this in contrevention of T&C?
GaryGazza ( talk) 10:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You removed a reference to Nicola's father's faith which was not in contravention of wiki t&c's. You provided no explanation of why you did this. It is my opinion. The best way to resolve the matter is to add the line back concerning her father - but you got the page blocked to edits. I agree there should be nothing in the box. So why hasn't the line been added? GaryGazza ( talk) 11:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
what are you on about? Read the above I am talking about adding her father. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
, so unless you can provide a citation to show that she herself is jewish, then... oh we've been here a million times. you're just not listening.
You don't seem to have read my point above, it about adding the father - not her faith in the talkbox. Take a deep breath and read what I wrote again. Relax..... GaryGazza ( talk) 11:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
We've all stated we have no problems mentioning her father is jewish in the body of the text. And no I didn't get the page blocked, yet again you accuse me of things I have no part in. Stop your lies NOW. Timeshift ( talk) 11:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no need to overreact, there is life outside of wiki. What I said is true but if you agree that the line should be added please ask an admin to unblock the page.
And take a chill pill man! GaryGazza ( talk) 11:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added something about the influence of her father, but the reference (to an "AGE" article) which was the cite added earlier to justify the "Jewish" entry in the infobox, actually does not say he was jewish as far as I can see. Am I missing something there, or it is a another reference? -- Bduke ( talk) 11:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be her 'jewish' father. Then this sordid incident is over GaryGazza ( talk) 11:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Read what he typed - the ref says nothing about her father being jewish. Your contributions have been nothing short of disgraceful right throughout. Compare what you advocate now to what you originally advocated and it's very different. Nice shifting of the goalposts. Timeshift ( talk) 11:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit conflict. Where in that reference does it say he is Jewish? I just do not see it. Or do you have another reference. If so please add it. I have unprotected the article, but will keep an eye on it. It will get protected again if there is a war or a lot of edits that do not follow policies and guidelines. -- Bduke ( talk) 11:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.australiandoctor.com.au/news/ad/0c0483ad.asp GaryGazza ( talk) 11:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am happy with your edit. Please protect the page as timeshift is harping on about the 'jew' word being in the article. What is wrong with being jewish? I am proud to be a jew and hate racism GaryGazza ( talk) 12:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
My father is a Polish Jew and he just told me he feels your edit to be offensive. Polish Jew is used by Jews to refer to Poles who were jews ( just like Polish Catholic). Lets leave it like it is. It sounds better that way. Also why use 13 words when you can use 2 ( remember english class) As far as I can see if we leave it like it is now I am happy and this whole sorid incident is over. Lets end it.
GaryGazza (
talk)
12:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Offended? Hilarious. I will revert and keep reverting as polish 'jew' is non-encyclopedic and can be considered pejorative. Jewish man of polish descent. If that's offensive, then I agree with the comment above... Timeshift ( talk) 12:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Finally this has all been (forcefully) ended. I just want to again note that all of the user's accusations against me are untrue, and to read the entire talk page, should anyone question my position on any of this whatsoever. I am not anti-semitic and have only wanted the page to be correct. Timeshift ( talk) 13:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh this is priceless... aparently this account was blocked by timeshift. Looking at nicola Roxon I see that the changes the user was blocked for were actually added after other users complained about timeshift??!!?? The user of this IP added that she had a jewish grandfather and was blocked. So the whole of T-mobile is blocked because Timeshift didn't like a reference to a jewish grandfather that is referenced. Talk about delusions! Timeshift ( talk) 00:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Is her grandfather's religion really relevant to a biography about her? Will ( talk) 21:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am an Australian and my father was a Polish Jew. I disagree, her grandfather was a procticing jew who fled the holocaust. He instilled strong values to the family ( in the article) this is relevant. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I also lost relatives in the holocaust and my father was in Dachau. Polish Jew is the comon historical reference to the Jewish community in Poland. Her grandfather was the patriac of the family and influenced it enourmously. This is all silly edit waring but Polish Jew is correct. I'm not fighting against timeshift, I think that such a family history is worth mentioning. It plays an important role in the family - it is also quite cool. It is just that the wording of timeshift doesn't express it well and leads to confusion. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Just reviewing Timeshift's point, it seems he may well have a point re the character of this argument. It seems that the user has signed up to Wikipedia with the sole intent of asserting Roxon is Jewish. I had incorrectly assumed initially that the person was racist and attempting to brand her as Jewish as an insult, but it now appears the person is working from the other side and we're essentially looking at a conflict of interest situation. First the war was over whether her father was Jewish. Then it became over whether she was Jewish, which couldn't be proven, and repeated attempts to add this to the infobox despite a consensus to the contrary. Now it's her grandfather, based on a single line in one article. I can see the point Timeshift is making re the continual shifting of this argument. I would note that while single purpose accounts are not in and of themselves bannable, disruptive editing or possibly more correctly disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is. Orderinchaos 14:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Just because I feel that it is a good edit doesn't make me disruptive, this whole thing is childish. The edit doesn't make sence. Polish Jew was taken straight from the source ( with all the implications). The source was actually saying how cool Nicola's family history is. What is wrong with that? It is not disruptive as others agree with me. It is only timeshift who constantly replies in the negative. Bduke agrees, and timeshift comes in again.... GaryGazza ( talk) 15:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Whoa, what a strange discussion. I agree with Bduke and think that it is time to get back to normal. I have reverted to the consensus edit as it gives the ethnicity better and flows better. A number of articles I see in wiki use the word Jew. Timeshift, although I realize that accusations made against you are dubious - consensus is for the other edit. If you can provide evidence for this then we can change the edit. It is normal for wiki to take the consensus and edit wars are getting silly on this site
One concern I have is timeshift's edit is ambiguous. His edit does not make it clear that the grandfather was a practicing Jew who fled Poland before the holocaust.
195.75.78.206 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Timeshift, where is your consensus to edit the pager? Me, 195.75.78.206,Bduke have all made comments against your edit. Wiki doesn't put in new changes against a majority consensus. I am not a sockpuppet of Bduke. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not insulted, mate, but I did splutter into my early morning coffee. I want to make a number of points. First, I was criticized a few days ago for unprotecting the article. Perhaps that criticism was correct. Certainly the nonsense has returned. I fully support the current protection added by Orderinchaos. Second, I think Orderinchaos makes a good point in the section above this, that the sources are indeed rather weak. "Polish Jew" or "Polish man of jewish descent" both seem to have problems. Would "Pole who fled to Australia before the outbreak of World War II to avoid the persecution of Jews" be better? Thirdly, I am not going to edit this article, as I know Nicola as my member of the House of Representatives and at ALP functions. Fourthly, to GaryGazza, you do seem to be fixated on this article. I suggest you spend time on other articles and develop a better grasp of the policies and guidelines of WP. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
What a load of rubbish this is stacked full of ALP supporters who want to make this a propaganda piece. ALP propaganda isn't an reference, it is Spin.
It is sad that Nicola's grandfather had to escape such people only to find them in Australia.
I never knew the ALP was so anti-Jewish. GaryGazza ( talk)
So you are threatening to block me because I think that there is an ALP bias?
GaryGazza (
talk)
13:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to add scourced material that Nicola's grandfather a Polish jew escaping the holocaust strongly influenced her move into health. But timeshift has battled me all the way, threatening a one man campaign to remove reference to a great religion. personal attack removed. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
What's your problem mate? The fact that we've proven you wrong at every turn? First you're adament Roxon is jewish. Then her father. Then her grandfather. And it's been added to the page - The middle of three sisters, Roxon is the granddaughter of a Polish man of Jewish descent who fled to Australia before the outbreak of World War II and worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane. Accept you've been beaten at the acceptable game on wikipedia of WP:RS and move on. Timeshift ( talk) 14:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
FYI GaryGazza has been blocked for 100 hours, and I suspect the next time will be permanent. Timeshift ( talk) 17:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The Ropschitz family was all Jewish and from Lwow in Poland. Thus Nicola's father was Jewish ( pass from mother's side). I also feel Nicola's proper name Ropschitz should be added to information about the father. He anglicised the name to Roxon. GaryGazza ( talk) 18:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Search Preview Free Text nicola roxon and ropschitz Date All Dates Source All Sources Region All Regions No results.
Do you have something against saying 'Jewish' father. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
All sources are freely available in the wiki article Lillian Roxon. It seems to me that Jewish is fine for the decendants of the Roxon family, just needs to be hidden if you are in the ALP. What a great story, battelers coming to Australia and ending up in the health ministry. Shame to not say it. GaryGazza ( talk) 09:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Timeshift, The internet is not the only source that can be used, there are things called books. Read the firt chapter of this Milliken, Robert Mother Of Rock (Melbourne, Black Inc. 2002)
ISBN
1-86395-139-3 it clearly describes lillian's early life and the Jewish heritage. Source has been cited. Now stop removing her jewish heritage.
GaryGazza (
talk)
09:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope no one minds - as the second half of this thread is still live, and as part of my original post apepars to have been inadvertently deleted, I've re-added it and some subheadings to improve the fllow of discussion
GaryGazza, a couple of points in no particular order:
Okay. We're all in agreement that Roxon herself is either not Jewish, or not verifiably so? If that's the case we should all also be inagreement that the article cannot claim that she is, and this issue appears to be resolved. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
We still don't seem to have a source that verifies the claim that a Jewish ancestry has affected Roxon's political decisions or ideals. It might well be true, but without definitive statements in independent sources we cannot include it. Note that for a claim like this the statement must specifically' attest that Nicola Roxon herself has adopted policy stances because some of her relatives had a particular religion or experienced particular things. It is not enough to note that past family experiences would lead a reasonable person to pursue policy stances. The link must be direct and well-sourced. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
You indicate that there is a soruce for Roxon's father beign a major influence on her, but not why. If there isn;t a rource indicating he was a major influecne because of hisr eligion, then mentioning his religion in this context gives it undue weight. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
See "undue weight" above. If Roxon's father was particularly religious and he had a strong influence on Roxon herself, it might appear obvious that his religion was relevant. But without a soruce, this is a supposition and fails the original research test. Euryalus ( talk) 23:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have read the first half of the book when I was in the state library and it clearly describes and cites all the information. From my experience you do not need to cite every single line. It is sufficient to leave a bibliography reference. I am more than happy if anyone ( except timeshift because of bias) read the first part of the book and confirm. It also shows the strong Jewish influence in the family. I think The fact that nicola's family were jewish refugies, set up lives in Australia etc. is important. At least worth two/three lines
GaryGazza (
talk)
10:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Gary, please post here in this section the precise wording you want to add to the article. Again, please make no personal comments about other users and discuss nothing on this talk page but the article content. Sarah 11:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I am busy this evening but will provide my idea for adding this new sourced material in the next few days. GaryGazza ( talk) 21:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
What page number of the book backs up your claim though? Forget the page for now and concentrate on which bit backs up your claims. Timeshift ( talk) 22:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The middle of three sisters, Roxon’s grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. Roxon was strongly influenced by her jewish father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[2]
Referenced from the first part of the book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 15:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
==> Jewish provides a continuation of the family history. It is sourced and provides an insight into the family background. Lillian Roxon had many encounters with her Jewishness in the book and so did Lillian's father
==> From the sourced articles Nicola was very clear that her father was a big influence in her life. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Having read the whole thing again, isn't this a lot of work for three lines that are sourced in a peer reviewed book and a number of newspaper stories? GaryGazza ( talk) 10:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
So what do we need to do:
1. The issue is the addition of Jewish infront of Nicola's father- lets debate this. 2. We can add everything else ( so lets do it ).
Gary GaryGazza ( talk) 11:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, all this text is a little confusing. What parts of the the text are at issue could you highlight?
The middle of three sisters, Roxon’s grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. Roxon was strongly influenced by her jewish father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[2]
GaryGazza ( talk) 12:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I have written history journal articles and referencing is in the bibliography unless there is a direct relevant quote or point of information that can't be explained in a bibliography. We can't reference every word.
1-4 referenced by the first chapter of the book. Her father was a pharmacist and then became a microbiologist until he died in the UK.
5: Her father is Jewish and an escapee from the holocaust, this is an important point and he is jewish.
My new wording:
The middle of three sisters, Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. Roxon was strongly influenced by her jewish father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 22:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937, anglicising their name from Ropschitz to Roxon. Her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. She is the middle of three sisters. Roxon was strongly influenced by her father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3]
I need to ref the first chapter as it proves a longer version of the history. It doesn't make sence to reference specific pages. Feel free to read the book and put in the more specific refs but a chapter ref is within wiki policy. I will not enter into the silly discussions below where someone thinks 1937 is 1932 and continues not to listen GaryGazza ( talk) 23:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
You have not read the source I have provided. This source was also verified by ther person who actually wrote the lillian roxon article. Maybie I have been harsh as I have family history that has done a staging post immigration at that time but I am concerned you are not acting in good faith. From the history of the time it is normal for people to emigrate in stages, especially jews. Please google Jewish immigration and provide sources that this is not the case as this is sourced.
204.4.130.140 (
talk)
09:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/23/1203467459974.html
Nicola was unable to get two weeks of to get married GaryGazza ( talk)
Link to prove her father is Jewish http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=290 —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree and have removed, edited the link. I was researching on the web and planning to edit in an hour. You beat me to it. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
There is calm now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
True, but edit waring has stopped and as long as things follow wiki policy edits should be allowed. That is wiki policy. There is no need to stifle the article. I'm sure you won't revert anything you don't like ( against policy) and I willnot put unsourced or irrelevent info ( against wiki policy) GaryGazza ( talk) 21:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I find the above comment inflamatory as it misrepresents me. I have sourced the first chapter of the book as it describes the story well. I suggest you read the first chapter. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
As a historian you above comment is wrong. Jews in Europe generally escaped the rise of facism - they did not have to just be in Germany. Think for a sec, you are in Poland and you think Hitler wants to invade so you move to Italy and try to move out of Europe from there as it has a port with access to the sea ( which poland didn't really have) and is more safe than poland. What other contraditions do you see? The contradition you cited is not a contradition but a misunderstanding of history. Jews fled Europe generally afraid of war not just those withing Germany's borders. GaryGazza ( talk) 22:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry but you are wrong, So you are saying the Jews were so stupid they would wait in Poland for Hitler to invade?!?!?!Hitler was seen in Europe in 1937 as dangerous and could invade Europe. Read about Winston Churchill, look at the published date of Mien Kamf, Annexation of Austria, military build up, threatening speaches by Hitler, look at Jewish immigration...your comments do not make sence. With regard to Italy, Poland had no real port ( Gdansk, Gdynia and Sopot possibly but not really ( read about them)) that was not controlled by the Nazi's. Many Poles travelled to Italy to leave as it had a non-German controlled port and Mussolini would allow them to leave the country. My father a Polish Jew left from an Italian Port in 1938. GaryGazza ( talk) 23:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Ohh, I forgot a nationalist was in charge of Poland in 1937 - guess his name if you can it starts with P.. Poland was never commie until the soviets invaded. GaryGazza ( talk) 23:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you read the first chapter of the book and the other sources I provided. I am not going to argue with you if you do not read my sources. GaryGazza ( talk) 23:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The above problems were because someone thought 1937 was 1932. I feel that her family history is important and a line about her grandparents excaping the holocaust is relevent. https://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp is another ref. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 23:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. She is the middle of three sisters. Roxon was strongly influenced by her father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3]
https://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp and the first chapter of the book.
Hello, I am unhappy with your agressive tone. The link did not work properly there is not need to assume bad faith. I am trying to improve this article but you are being quite rude. Here is the proper link.
https://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=4364 GaryGazza ( talk) 09:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I will not enter into the above discussion. Please find my edit below:
Roxon’s grandparents along with her father were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] She is the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her parents Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists. She is the middle of three sisters. Roxon was strongly influenced by her father who died when she was 10. She was devastated by his death and came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3]
Please comment on this edit only. Please read the sources I have provided before you comment as this is a policy of wiki. These sources were added to wiki by users other than myself too. I will not respond to bullying or disruptive edits which are from people who have not read the references. GaryGazza ( talk) 09:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Gary, I am a bit reluctant to enter this debate again, as you have raved on about ALP control and as far as I can see, I am the only ALP member (and with a direct connection to Nicola Roxon too) who has been involved here. I do have a conflict of interest. Nevertheless, I think the wording above is fine and your link in the section above is important. Nevertheless, you do have an over strident tone and do not seem to have done your homework on wikipedia policies. Orderinchaos is an Australian administrator with a great deal of experience and he really is trying to help. Just calm down and work with him. -- Bduke ( talk) 10:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your response, I was simply concerned that he did not read my sources. I am toning it down. Considering the addition is sourced and you agree I suggest adding it unless someone can disagree ( after reading all sources). GaryGazza ( talk) 10:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
It has been two days with no dissent. I call to add the above text immediatly.
GaryGazza (
talk)
17:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Where is this email, as such you above comment is unsourced. GaryGazza ( talk) 17:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
She may not ascibe to the faith but she campainged and publically pleged a strong allegence to Isreal. This should be included. I agree with Gnangarra, this is an important point. GaryGazza ( talk)
How about this for an edit? (The occupation issue still needs resolving but I'm happy to work with this as a draft and figure the other part out later) The content is the same but the flow is improved.
Orderinchaos 04:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Roxon is the middle of three sisters and is also the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] Her parents, Lesley and Jack, both trained as pharmacists, and her Jewish[5][6][7] father was a strong influence in her life. She was devastated by his death when she was 10 years old, and ultimately came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[3] Although Roxon does not identify as a Jew, her family's Jewish background has influenced her. She has stated publicly her strong sympathy with Israel - she visited the country in 2003, and is a member of the Labor Friends of Israel committee. [4]
[4] here [5] [2] [6] [3] Note Roxon's father was Jewish, just didn't got to synagogue. You can still be Jewish or say Catholic and not go to church/practice. [7] Roxon herself called her father a Polish Jew
Roxon clearly attributes an affinity to the Jewish community because of her father and others, it was a point she noted in her election campaign locally, as such it should be there. Her political views on Isreal are important as this is an important issue presently due to terrorism in Australia from groups that dispute Nicola's views. Also, a large amount of people in the party oppose her pro-Israel stance.
GaryGazza ( talk) 14:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Roxon clearly attributes an affinity to the Jewish community because of her father and others, it was a point she noted in her election campaign locally, as such it should be there. She has indicated this is one of her strong political views, she is even a member of a faction within labor that supports Israel. It is correct to include one line for a politition of they have a political view on a situation, especially if they officially are part of a faction that supports this. I have done a lot of research to see what factions etc. Nicola is in and this is one of them. This could be easily sourced by calling the labor group supporting israel. Either way is a politition is part of a faction and has been source to be a big supporter then this is relecant. In addition, wiki is not for putting in what a politition tells us to put in. There is a strong source showing that Roxon was emphatic in supporting Israel because of her background. Just because she would prefer something else doesn't mean it isn't true. Adolf Hitler would disagree with his wiki entry. As you and timeshift are in personal contact with Roxon and obviously don't like me that much, there is some bias here. I suggest other users pitch in and we take on board what they say. My edit adds sourced information that is relevant.
The question should be add that Nicola is a member of the Labor Friends of Israel committee and that she has been quoted during the election campaign as saying she has a strong sympathy with Israel. This was part of her presentation to the public of what she stands for. This also neatly ties in with her Jewish background and leaves the reader with how her family effected her political views.
GaryGazza ( talk) 00:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. As a member of the Labor Friends of Israel committee that is a clear ( very clear) statement that she supports Isreal. Are you saying that is speculation? Roxon clearly attributes an affinity to the Jewish community because of her father and others, it was a point she noted in her election campaign locally, as such it should be there. She is also quoted as saying she supports isreal because of her family background.
Secondly I accepted your proposal wholeheartedly except I added the new line because another user Gnangarra suggested it and we both feel it is relevant. There was nothing wrong with your proposal it's just there was some more info we tracked down and I added a line. If fact I could say that you are not considering my proposal and the idea of Gnangarra.
There is nothing personal here...I've done research and come up with relevant information.
GaryGazza ( talk) 00:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just want to confirm that the information is correct, do you have a problem with that? If so then I would say you are lieing my 5 sources are correct. I believe you though, just need to see proof please email this info. Do you have anything to hide?
GaryGazza (
talk)
11:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
We then have a great welter of speculation about how any of this influenced Roxon's decision-making, whether Roxon supports Israel and if so why, and whether she attended Michael Danby's wedding and if not why not.
It is surely time to bring this to a close. In the interests of resolving discussion, I suggest we adopt the wording proposed by Orderinchaos above as a consensus proposal:
Roxon is the middle of three sisters and is also the niece of the late Australian journalist and Sydney Push member Lillian Roxon.[2] Her paternal grandparents were Jewish and migrated from Poland to Australia in 1937. Anglicising the family name from Ropschitz to Roxon, her grandfather worked as a GP in Gympie and Brisbane.[1] Her mother Lesley trained as a pharmacist, while her father Jack was a microbiologist. He was a strong influence in her life and she was devastated by his death from cancer when she was 10 years old. Roxon ultimately came to the view that "governments have got a role to make sure they can help people in circumstances they can't control - either through their health failing or an accident".[1]
Support or opposition welcome. Euryalus ( talk) 01:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Sources (the same as used in the current article):
1.
Niece of Lillian Roxon, and the quote relative to her father's death
2.
Grandfather Jewish and a GP in Gympie and Brisbane
There are some additional sources for these points further up this page, but these two seem adequate for the limited claims being made by this wording.
Euryalus (
talk)
01:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Please send me a copy of Nicola's email to you regarding her viewpoint. After I verify that it is actually in existance I should be able to confirm.
<blank email>addr blanked you should enable email in your preferences 121.221.84.238 ( talk) 10:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
GaryGazza ( talk) 09:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I just wish to confirm your statements, please email me this email. I have done a lot of work researching this article and want to make sure you are telling the truth. I have updated my preferences to have email, please email me. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I am willing to comprimise but I must see the source email as it is improtant to your case. I provided you with 5 sources and you have justified that they are wrong. I need to see this. Either email it to me or post it here. I provided all info to you. GaryGazza ( talk) 12:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
See below:
Correct, we also have an email from her office confirming that she does not ascribe to any faith. The non-practicing Christian bit has also been provided to us - she certainly did not grow up in the faith, although her father's views and values may well have been inspired by his own heritage in Judaism. That much is getting into OR, though. (Any point in looking up the 1975-1977 electoral roll to clarify occupations? I'll be in Melb again in just over a month) Orderinchaos 04:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Please provide this email.
GaryGazza ( talk) 15:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not accept your offer as I see a perceived bias and it is as if mates are ganging up. You can remove any personal info from the email. It is a source and I do not believe you....if you she wrote about her Jewish background it isn't personal. Also, there are 5 sources that disagree with your comments and they are public - sorry I need evidence to believe you. GaryGazza ( talk) 18:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Strange, I thought you were genuine but something is fishy...you don't want to present the email...hmmmmm..... GaryGazza ( talk) 19:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have seen the e-mail from Nicola Roxon's constituency office. I can confirm that it comes from one of her staffers in her office whom I know and trust. It say what OiC says above - "Ms Roxon does not self identify as Jewish". It is not proper to post this e-mail and this should be the end of it. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
That email has nothing to do with her father. All the sources say he is Jewish. GaryGazza ( talk) 20:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
This article has banned all mentions of Roxon's political views. Her views on Gay marriage, her membership of the Israel comittie....hmmm me thinks the labor party contols this article. One would think her politics and things she campaigned with should be added. Of course, even if there are five sources that quotes that she supports Isreal because of her Jewish heritage an unknown and hidden email among labor supporters prohibits its inclusion. Post the email in it's entirity here. Blank out the personal stuff...Of course because I don't support labor I'm not alowed to post. Why can't we add her political views and memberships in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have started a new section, it is very confusing and I ask that you re-input your ideas below so I can answer them. GaryGazza ( talk) 20:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not support any political party. She is a vocal suporter of Isreal and is a member of labor friends of Isreal. I believe that is a political view. Isreal is in the news on a daily basis and she is sourced in 2 sources to be a vocal supportor. Why can't a line be included? GaryGazza ( talk) 08:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
She is a memer of the Labor Friends of Isreal. I am looking to cooperate here. A politition that joins a commitie and campaigns with this should have this in her article. What source do you require and I will get one that is not from a Jewish newspaper. By the way the jewish newspaper in question is a non-partisan news paper. GaryGazza ( talk) 14:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I am serious in improving this article and will not respond to any comments not related to this. Please state your specific concerns after this message and I will respond. The above is much too confusing.
1. Your text related to her Jewish family background should be added as it is agreed. My only concern now is that it implies that Roxon's father is not Jewish, was not born in Poland and did not escape the Nazis. This is sourced in the book. Not a major issue but .
2. From my perspective, an wiki entry about a politician should include their political views that they have expressed over their career. She is known in the Jewish community for her support of Israel and membership of the labour pro-Israel group.
* Sources - we need non-biased sources to prove her committee membership and view on the issue. * Wording, I'm sure it is possible to word this in a way that doesn't misinterpret her views. *Relevance: Israel/Palestine is a major international issue and she is a member of the Australian government who has influence on our foreign policy.
3. Gay Marriage : Reading through Age articles this has generated press coverage and is a political view. It should be added as it is relevant. She has a view on a contentious issue, she was publicly debated on this issue, she has been forced to change her view.
See this link, she really pissed off the party: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/10/1092102440370.html
Please add issues that you see and lets work together to improve this article. No more nonsense just serious points. Also, a little fair play here please the treatment I have received was heavy handed. I will only respond to comments about the article. GaryGazza ( talk) 15:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for discussing the article, I think the edit as it is is fine. Your comments make sence but it really has been argues to death.
Anyone can add their thoughts on issues 2 and 3? GaryGazza ( talk) 22:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I've provided 10 sources for the four lines. Florrie, am happy to discuss though. Have you read all the sources, they are pretty direct. That is a lot of sourcing for four lines.—Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) diff
Florrie, Roxon in her speech to parliament said her father death had a significant influence on her we may need to reword if this isnt being conveyed. Gary your right this has been discussed to death, the current has content has consensus(consensus doesnt need 100% support). IMHO the discussions have become so circular that everybody has reached a point where they are exhausted and no longer consider alternatives. I suggest that the article be left as is for a month or so(this discussion is here so readers can see all POV) let people research maybe additional sources will become available, remember consensus can change. Gnan garra 02:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, we should add sourced and relevant material. You can't arbitrarily say 2months for a new addition. We must draw a line and there is sufficient sourcing and approval to add the test as it is now. Also the article as it is is wrong.
Also, please discuss issues 2 and 3.
GaryGazza (
talk)
08:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
1. As stated previously you are receiving messages from Nicola's staffers in relation to this article. I think that is a slight bias. This is not a personal attack, but it is against wiki policy to have the person in the article edit it as far as I know. Please respond to this instead of deleting this. Please do not threaten me as I am right to ask this.
My concern is that it appears that this staffer is a friend of him. Why would a staffer write a 'personal' email with reference to this article if there wasn't a relationship between the two parties. He also has been responsible for 45% of the responses here. Considering this relationship ( perceived or otherwise) maybie it is best he stepped back from the discussion for a while to let other uses express their opinions without undue influence. Bduke you did the same thing because you are a Labor party member I'd expect him to do the same. There was also no need to send thretening messages to my talk board for a genuine request for clarification. GaryGazza ( talk) 10:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying, I withdraw my claim of bias. GaryGazza ( talk) 11:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
2. The wording has been agreed, please respond with your reasons for waiting 2 months to add sourced information and leave incorrect information in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGazza ( talk • contribs) 09:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
New evidence has come to light that suggests this debate will soon be over and the article can (hopefully) be unprotected. Orderinchaos 11:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Do tell...I hope you are not trying to get me blocked like all yor threats on my talk page. I have only asked you for clarification that this contact was not your friend. Can you stop treatening me and just add points to this article.
Can we add she is a member of the labor friends of Isreal comittie? There is a section where she lists her memberships. Please list your reasons.
GaryGazza ( talk) 11:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to oficially state I did not start editing until this year. It is quite clear this admin works for Nicola Roxon or is being the mouthpiece of her. Sad really, how labor works. I have sent a number of emails to the Jewish groups who wrote those sources. They will return to get rid of the labour bias and bullying. It is like the communists, either agree or get killed off. GARYGAZZA —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
149.254.192.195 (
talk)
20:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
One acronym - LOL!!! Karma is a female dog. As for the ad hominem attack 'sad really, how labor works' it just shows that yet more labor slagging is based on accidental or deliberate ignorance. Timeshift ( talk) 22:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)