![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
I've added a quote from Monsignor Oesterreicher that I think has great relevance to this article. I believe it is in the right place but perhaps some of you veteran editors who have been editing this thing so harmoniously could take a look and see if that is so.-- Mantanmoreland 15:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
The article neuters critics. It does this in two ways. First, the arguments of critics are misportrayed as less critical then they actually are. This is most obvious if one compares Brian Klug's essay " The Myth of the New Anti-Semitism" with the way his views are summarized in the article. The second method of neutering critics is by covering their views in the " What is the new anti-Semitism?" section. There are two subsections of this definition section, " An old phenomenon" and " New, but not anti-Semitism", which actually cover major criticism of the concept but they are subverted and misportrayed as implicitly supporting just with slightly different views of the topic. There should be a distinct criticism section and major critics should go there and their arguments should be accurately portrayed. Also criticisms within the criticism section should be organized topically (like the rest of the article) rather than by the name of the individual making the criticism unless absolutely necessary. -- Ben Houston 21:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The other serious issue with the article is its confusion of the listing of evidence of increased hostility and attacks towards Jewish people and symbols with the specific theory of NAS. The increase in hostility and attacks is real and it should be appropriately condemned and documented in Contemporary anti-Semitism. To view NAS as just describing the increase is to fundamentally misunderstand the concept (as defined by Foxman, Chesler and Klug) and the topic of this article. The concept of NAS, according to Foxman, Chesler and Klug, actually offers a way of understanding this increase as being part of a rising global coalition of anti-Semitism, the reawakening of an old hatred that is, for the most part, devoid of context. This is a specific interpretation of the evidence, an interpretation that leads one to draw specific conclusions, and it is the interpretation of this evidence that critics such as Brian Klug disagree with, not the evidence itself. (To understand where I am coming from I highly recommend reading Brian Klug's essay " The Myth of the New Anti-Semitism", I am parroting him.) -- Ben Houston 21:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC) [comment edited @ 05:46, 11 September 2006)
The article is about the modern theory of NAS, not the term "New anti-Semitism" and its various meanings thoughout history. As such the section covering other historical uses of the term, Changing meanings, is too prominent and serves as a distraction. Could we do the dab thing and create other articles for each of those separate meanings? Or, if multiple other articles is overkill, could we create an article entitled " New anti-Semitism (term)" that describes the various historical uses and meanings of the term? To ensure clarity, but it might be going too far, we could rename this article as " New anti-Semitism (concept)" or " New anti-Semitism (theory)". Or could we make use of a wiktionary entry to cover the various meanings? This will allow us to again focus on the true topic of the article. (I believe that focusing this article will help to clarify that the evidence of an increase in attacks and hostility towards Jewish people and symbols is distinct from the specific and controversial interpretation of these events offered by the theory of NAS.) -- Ben Houston 21:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been editing this article for very long as you know, but I am a bit surprised you would engage in such a significant action without talking about it previously in this article. I must tell you that I think that there is no justification whatsoever for combing out the "historical uses of the term" as a separate article. The article you created is a candidate for speedy deletion if I have ever seen one. I suggest you not proceed with it. -- Mantanmoreland 03:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted. In so doing there was an almost-edit conflict and I unintentionally reverted another editor's more minor changes. Whatever happens to those is a sep issue -- I strongly suggest that the massive move that I reverted not be reinstated.-- Mantanmoreland 03:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I actually agree with BHouston on moving the piece out. The article is way to long, and it is a rather seperate issue. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The article reads: "New anti-Semitism is the concept of an international resurgence of anti-Jewish incidents and attacks on Jewish symbols, as well as the acceptance of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse. It has been described as a "kaleidoscope of old hatreds shattered and rearranged," [1] coming simultaneously from three political directions: the left, Islamism, and the far-right. " This sentenced is referenced to 5 different sources but looks strange to me. I am Persian. I have spent 23 years of my life in Iran watching TV, reading newspapers. There is no such thing as anti-Semitism BUT rather it is all Anti-Zionism. The government of Iran and the television are very careful when they talk about the Jews. They stress that we are bad with Zionism, those who they say have occupied Israel, NOT with Jews in general. Outside of Iran, the situation may be different but definitely not in Iran. The Qur'an respects Judaism and also talks about what it calls "good" Jews and "bad" Jews. Thus, I would like to suggest evaluation of the sources for this sentence. Please fill in the following why you think each of these sources pass WP:RS (i.e. they are academic peer-reviewed sources). Here is the link from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles): [2] ; BTW, it would be great if one can specify page or relevant paragraphs within each source so that one can check them easier. Thanks.
Thanks in advance. -- Aminz 22:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I will appreciate if someone can add a source published by a more famous press. Thanks -- Aminz 23:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Ben, I personally think that "new anti-Semitism" is not a good term because it tries to tie anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, hence implying that whoever opposes the state of Israel actually opposes the whole Jewish community and actually wants to wipes off the whole Jewish community from the earth. This is not true. Jews living now in Iran don't face any particular hostility unless they would be suspected to have been connected to Israel. BUT, this is what *I* think. I am no scholar. I am sure many respected academics would support this idea if it is really true. Some Muslims may assaults on Jews (or persons perceived to be Jewish and Jewish symbols, but I am sure this is either in the context of their conflict with Israel, or has its roots in it. Part of it is natural. I think I can not help much with the article but can learn from it. Thanks to those who are working on this article. -- Aminz 06:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not quite sure if this intro is better than the existing one, but it has one definite quality that should be added to the existing intro. Instead of starting with saying that NAS is a new thing and then saying that critics claim that this thing is more a collection of different phenomena, you present each phenomenon that the concept is supposed to cover, and then say that the proponents say that these trends put together is NAS. In scientific language one may say you are working inductively in stead of deductively. The good thing about this is that one leaves it to the reader wether to see this as one concept pointing to one phenomenon. And a key point of the controversy is well summarized here: "More controversially, some posit, that instead of just being a collection of relatively distinct trends, there are significant and explicit alliances or coalitions between the component trends and that the result is a new form of anti-semitism distinct from classical anti-semitism" pertn 17:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The suggested change to the intro above removes elements that sources identify as key to the concept. We need to stick with what the sources say, and not redefine things based on editor personal opinion. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 22:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion: After carelessly reading this article by Lewis, I tend to agree with the 'existence' of the "new anti-semitism" to some extent. Why don't you guys start the references with a peer-reviewed academic sources published in a famous press rather than a Chief Rabbi. Speaking to myself, how can one expect a Muslim editor, knowing something about the history of Islam and Anti-Semitism, doesn't get suspicous of such a concept when he sees that a Rabbi is the very first reference to this concept.
Question: Please show me a reliable source (not from a Rabbi please) alluding that there is such anti-semitism in Iran. Lewis is always speaking about Arabic countries. Thanks.
-- Aminz 03:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, thanks for finding the Bernard Lewis article, which is very interesting. I've added a section based on it, although I'm worried again about length, so maybe it should be cut down or incorporated into another section (or left out entirely if the length becomes a serious issue).
It would be good to find something from Edward Said. I know he mentioned Arab anti-Semitism in the Ron Rosenbaum book, but there might be a more detailed treatment somewhere. Aminz, I agree wholeheartedly about the need to focus on academic sources. If you have any others you can recommend, for or against the concept, they would be gratefully received. The source doesn't have to use the words "new anti-Semitism" (although preferably should), but it has to be clear that that's what's being discussed i.e. a new form of it, a new wave, etc.
I'm currently reading Pierre-André Taguieff's Rising from the Muck: The New Anti-Semitism in Europe, so I'll try to tidy our mention of him, which is currently secondhand, but without increasing the length. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have feelings either way about whether the cartoon section should stay? SlimVirgin (talk) 12:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else have a view about the first section, "Changing meanings," added by ChrisO, that Bhouston keeps removing? [4] The first two paragraphs are not about this particular concept of new anti-Semitism, so I can see why we might want to remove them. But the third paragraph onwards does seem to be about this concept. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
While this is an interesting and well-sourced section, it does not appear to directly fall into the discussion of "New anti-Semitism", but rather parallel more "old-fashion" descriminatory policies. The bans on Kosher (and I assume Halal) meat does not have a connection, insofar as this section claims, with anti-Zionism or anti-Israel beliefs, which is the core "difference" between the "new" and the "old". The section would do better spun off into its own article (such as Bans on Kosher meat), or in talks of traditional antisemitic practices -- Leflyman Talk 14:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Read the sources, it's cited as part of a new wave of anti-semitism so it's completely germane to the article and not a stretch at all particularly as it involves the animal rights movement and environmentalists who are generally seen as leftists. Farnsworth J 18:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
So no mention of the bans in either the Anti-Semitism or New anti-Semitism articles despite ample sources describing it as such? There should at least be a short metnion in both articles with a link to the new article. Farnsworth J 16:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
"I am shaking my head trying to figure out why there is such enthusiasm to linking this ritual slaughter business to anti-Semitism, when it clearly is an animal rights issue and applies equally to Moslem and Jewish practices."
Believe it or not there are people in this world, particularly in Europe, who hate both Jews and Muslims. Look at the British National Party, the National Front in France and the neo-Nazis in Germany, for instance, all of whom support laws banning ritual slaughter, and are anti-Semitic and anti-Arab. That some left wing animal rights activists work with them on this issue is an illustration of the whole NAS argument. Also, there is a wing of the animal rights movement that is deeply fascist and xenophobic. And again, read the sources which clearly express the view that the anti-Kosher movement is anti-Semitic. Farnsworth J 01:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Since I think it's inappropriate for an article to become a good article while it's the subject of an arbitration request, I removed the nomination. -- Dissident ( Talk) 02:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
This cartoon is, I assume, intended to illustrate the concept of new anti-semitism. Either that or it is inserted as POV-pushing. Either way it is inappropriate for the article.-- Mantanmoreland 13:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Please explain why you find it "inappropriate for the article" as it does illustrate the concept of NAS. // Liftarn
Does anyone have thoughts on the Zipperstein section? I'm inclined to remove it because it's a weak argument, but I'm hesitating because he's a critic of the concept, and removing him would leave us with only Klug as a main academic opponent (plus Chomsky and Finkelstein). Is there another academic critic we could replace Zipperstein with? SlimVirgin (talk) 15:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just shaved another 26 kilobytes off the length. Will try to keep on tightening. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Removed this sentence from the responses section (European Union):
"According to the French Interior Minister, the number of anti-Semitic attacks in France in 2004 was more than double that of the same period in 2003."
The reference supplied [8] does not support the claim, with the most relevant section reading:
"In a March 2005 annual report to the Prime Minister, the National Consultative Commission on Human Rights (NCCHR) indicated that there were 1,565 racist and anti-Semitic incidents in 2004, nearly double the 833 recorded in 2003. The number of anti-Semitic incidents--including physical assaults, attacks against property, cemetery desecrations, threats, and reported insults--increased from 601 in 2003 to 970 in 2004. Disturbingly, the number of incidents occurring in schools nearly tripled. There have been no reported deaths due to anti-Semitic violence since 1995, but 36 persons were injured in anti-Semitic attacks in 2004."
Nor is the information supplied about the source accurate. There are other problems with the sentence apart from its sourcing, conflating France with the EU in particular. -- Nydas 18:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of moving the Earl Raab paragraph from the "rebuttal" section to the "anti-Israelism" section. I hope this decision will not engender much controversy. CJCurrie 23:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Until the 1980s, Jews in the US were generally perceived as left of center. Sometime during the Reagan era, the organized Jewish community started supporting Republicans. [9] 25 years later, it's almost been forgotten that organized Jewry used to be leftist. Today, the Republican/Christian right seems to be strongly aligned with Israel. That's a huge change in position. (Most US Jews still vote Democratic; 77% voted for Kerry. [10]. The leadership, however, is further to the right. [11]).
In Israel, with the decline in Labor and the rise of Likud, something similar happened, with the ruling coalition moving further to the right.
The opposition from the Left has to be seen in this context. More on this later. There's a book on the shift, but I have to find the reference. -- John Nagle 21:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Does David Duke really deserve two paragraphs, a picture, and a link to a video clip in this article? -- John Nagle 19:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The term ‘the new antisemitism’ refers to the current wave, which has swept much of the world since October 2000. It has been characterized as ‘political antisemitism’, on the one hand, because of its use by radical Islamists in their geo-political struggle against the West and its alleged spearhead the Jewish people and its state; and on the other, because of the association made in the media and by public figures between Israel and the Jewish people as an inseparable entity. In parallel, the barriers between antisemitism and anti-Zionism have been lifted and the two merged....
Thus, opportunistic antisemites such as Matt Hale, David Duke and William Pierce aimed at creating a new wave of antisemitism by convincing Americans that the terrorist attacks were the direct result of US support for Israel, and that this support stemmed from complete Jewish domination of the government. [12]
-- Leflyman Talk 18:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)...In order to reinforce their case, Arab commentators quoted western sources which offered similar explanations for the September 11 events. Jawad al-Bashiti quoted American white supremacist David Duke in the Jordanian opposition paper al-‘Arab al-Yawm on 7 January 2002. [13]
-- Leflyman Talk 19:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)The very same antiglobalization movement that prides itself on staging counter-protests against neo-Nazis who crash their rallies links arms with protestors who wave the swastika in the name of Palestinian rights.
...The far right sees nationalist movements and indigenous rights groups as allies in the assault against the multiculturalism of the new world order. And it sees the Palestinians, in particular, as a resistance movement against the modern-day Elders of Zion. American neo-Nazi David Duke summed up this worldview in an essay on his Web site: "These Jewish supremacists have a master plan that should be obvious for anyone to see. They consistently attempt to undermine the culture, racial identity and solidarity, economy, political independence of every nation.…[They] really think they have some divine right to rule over not only Palestine but over the rest of the world as well."( Reprint in YaleGlobal)
I don't see anything in either John Nagle's edits or SlimVirgin's & Jayjg's to indicate that either ought to stay out of editing Jewish-related articles: folks (on both sides), someone not sharing your opinions doesn't mean they ought to go away.
On the other hand, John's "But in terms of actual events, he said" is blather, and SlimVirgin's to this article have done a lot to sharpen and clarify it. I don't think this has much to do with either's politics: I think it just shows that Slim is a better writer. And from what I can tell, she's done a fair bit of writing for the enemy here, and has done it pretty competently, although I'll admit I haven't sorted through exactly which edits are whose, maybe "the enemy" did most of his or her own writing. Still, the Klug material is now better expressed than I originally wrote it, and I didn't do the rewrite. - Jmabel | Talk 09:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
JayJG: I did restore the "Anti-Semitism is crying wolf" cartoon, though; it's a good illustration of the POV of some of those who oppose the concept of New anti-Semitism.
In other words, it's good for a straw-man argument. Thanks Jay: you've given me sufficient grounds to delete it.
If you really want to use a cartoon, why not search out one that Tikkun ran a few years ago (in which members of that group were depicted protesting the occupation of Palestine, while a figure representing "right-wing Zionists" attacked them as anti-Semites and self-haters)? This image was actually attacked as "new anti-Semitism", if memory serves. CJCurrie 23:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
It may represent Latuff's POV, but it's not the first thing readers should see in the "rebuttal" section. Or the second, third or fourth thing. In fact, it's probably best left out entirely.
The cartoon's presence in the article lends itself to a "straw-man argument" in the sense that it portrays NAS-critics in a questionable light at the very beginning of their section. Leaving aside the predictable question of whether of not the image is anti-Semitic (and I recognize that cogent arguments could be made on both sides), it's certain that many readers will conclude that it is. In fact, the cartoon's presence in the article seems calculated to lead readers toward that very conclusion -- and taint everything else in the section by association.
Moreover, I'm not certain that this particular Latuff cartoon (or *any* Latuff cartoon) is significant enough to warrant inclusion in the article. I'd never seen the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" image before this week, and I've not seen any evidence that it's of particular importance to the NAS debate.
By contrast, the Tikkun cartoon has been the subject of debate vis-a-vis "New anti-Semitism", and its presence would not poison the well for the rest of the section. (I'll find the publishing details of said image shortly, and you'll be able to judge for yourself.)
One way or the other, I'm certain we can find something better than the previous image. CJCurrie 03:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I meant to say earlier that I removed the examples just to keep the length down. It might be worth starting a separate article for them. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
CJCurrie, you've changed the definition of New anti-Semitism so that it is now coming from the "Radical" left, rather than just the left. Is that what the sources say? As far as I know, they indicate it comes from all over the left spectrum. Jayjg (talk) 02:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Wistrich is quite clear when he states that This anti-Zionism of the radical leftist camp, profoundly discriminatory towards Jewish nationalism, has now spread into the mainstream liberal left, whose rhetoric relentlessly seeks to undermine the moral and historical legitimacy of a Jewish state. Bauer is also clear when he says it is a basically upper middle class, intellectual phenomenon. It is widespread in the media, in universities, and in well manicured circles. Typical is the statement of the French ambassador to Britain at a cocktail party, later reported in the British Press, referring to Israel, with typical diplomatic politeness and finesse, as that "shitty little country.When Chesler talks about the New anti-Semitism from the left, she's talking about her old buddies; none of them are talking about wild-eyed Marxists. Jayjg (talk) 03:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Pipes hasn't written a book about this, and we're not really using Chesler as a source, but are trying to stick to more academic views.
Jayjg
(talk)
03:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, seven different sources are used for that definition, only one of which is by Sacks.
Jayjg
(talk)
04:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with this section, and I think it needs rewriting. I think it combines two ideas that would be better tackled separately i.e. the far right and new anti-semitism, and Islamism and new anti-semitism. As it is, neither of these are covered on their own, only the matter of their convergence. While I think a section (or subsection) on convergence in ideology between the right and Islamism is valid, I think we need a stronger discussion of what we are claiming in this article are two separate threads of new anti-semitism (the left get their own). There's also an inherent tension in the convergence we assert where the right is 'new' anti-semitism because of a focus on Israel and zionism, while the Islamists are adopting 'old' anti-semitic motifs. Any comments? -- Coroebus 06:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
That "New Anti-semitism" is a term is surely absolutely evident and uncontroversial. Surely the argument is about whether it is a concept or not. Most sources cited here tend to think it is (indeed they have been selected for citation here specifically because they have used the term in a way they find meaningful). However, there are also some sources cited that contest the conceptual utility of the term. Therefore there is an argument for not using the word "concept" in the lead. Itsmejudith 08:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I still think that Sacks is a moderate and appropriate. If you take his point of view he makes total sense. I think he bends over backwards in this paragraph: "Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand, because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque Nazi-style posters? Perhaps." Terrorist attacks on Israel are evidence of anti-Semitism, although those attitudes are obviously driven by the shared tragedy of Palestinian-Israel conflict, but to take those attitudes out of context is to distort things. The many emotive accusations at the Durban conference were problematic since there was a mix of radicals and non-radicals and too many accusations which when lumped together can be perceived by Sacks comes across as too much even if the non-radicals were correct -- the Durban conference was clearly disorganized and ineffective as compared to a focused audience-tested effective political campaign that seeks mass approval such as Bush in 2004. What needs to occur is the advocacy of sensible simple positions within larger coordinated movements that are always aware of the sensitivities involved (such as don't make any stupid Nazi comparisons and watch how close one can be percieved to taking an anti-Zionist position.) I still think that Sacks is a smart guy although you have to understand his perspective, one just has to realize that he's writings are co-opted by others who think less clearly than him in some situations. -- Ben Houston 19:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
John, as stated a number of times, this article is about the current concept of New anti-Semitism, not the term, which, as discussed in New anti-Semitism (term), has actually covered a number of different phenomena, including, for example, what is now known as Racial anti-Semitism. Also, can you explain what makes, for example, Klug an authority on this subject, but people like Sacks, Chesler, and Foxman not authorities? And finally, please don't invent things like "the Jayjg rule", that's really verging on yet another personal attack. Jayjg (talk) 17:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Anti-semitism is so emotive a topic that it helps to perform a thought experiment. Suppose someone were to claim that there is a form of prejudice called anti-kiwism, an irrational hatred of New Zealanders. What might convince us he was right? Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand, because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque Nazi-style posters? Perhaps.
From the article: "Proponents of the concept argue that…"; "Critics of the concept argue that…"; "That there has been a resurgence of anti-Semitic attacks and attitudes is accepted by most opponents of the concept of new anti-Semitism." The article is about a contested idea. To some authorities it is self-evidently not only a concept but a tangible phenomenon, while to others it is an example of chaotic conceptualisation. Four authors are cited as proposers of this concept and each seems to define it in a different way. What is a necessary condition for an anti-semitic action or discourse to count as "new anti-semitism"? That the left should be involved? The far right? Muslims? Two of these in an unholy alliance? All three in an even less holy alliance? Simply that it is occurring in recent decades (e.g. the bans on ritual slaughter)? The article doesn't make this clear. Itsmejudith 19:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
John, please don't convert to templates. The templates are there for individual editors who may not know how to write citations. Once the citations are written, there's no need to add them, and they take up more space. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Citation templates are a generally unhelpful imposition on the editor; they're a special language one must learn in order to cite references in one special way. They add useless verbiage to articles (albeit invisible), and impose an unhelpful burden on editors. The templates in question added nothing of value to this article, since the references were already cited and formatted properly. Let's leave citation templates for those who find comfort in procedure, and stick to more sensible methods of referencing in this article. Jayjg (talk) 15:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Ken, regarding your header change, Klug is saying that what others are calling new anti-Semitism is new, and is a prejudice, but it's not anti-Semitism; hence the header. He says it is a "brand new bug" not a mutation of an existing virus. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I've added a Finkelstein section as discussed earlier. I picked out what I saw as his strongest argument in Beyond Chutzpah and summarized it as accurately as I could. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Given the lengthy section outlining Finkelstein's views, I've removed this paragraph from the "Left and anti-Zionism" section:
Norman Finkelstein dedicates the first third of his book Beyond Chutzpah [5] to new anti-Semitism, arguing that the concept provides political cover to supporters of Israel, and that pro-Zionist groups such as the Anti-Defamation League have brought forward charges of "new anti-Semitism" several times since the early 1970s, each time with the intent of deflecting criticism of Israel. Finkelstein argues that Phyllis Chesler, in The New Anti-Semitism, "barely disguises that alleging a new anti-Semitism is simply the pretext for defending Israel." He writes that Chesler devotes eight pages to "A Brief History of Arab Attacks against Israel, 1908-1970s", but says nothing about Israel's actions against Arabs. [6]
It's not specifically about the Left, the arguments themselves are quite vague and don't really address the points raised, and it generally tries to rebut two sources we haven't even quoted in the article. The new section is vastly superior to this. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
CJ, you've rewritten the sentence to say "Rufin recommended criminalizing what he described as unfounded criticisms of Israel, including those which described it as a racist or apartheid state." This suggests there were other criticisms that he recommended criminalizing. Can you say what they were? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Leaving that point aside for now, I don't have a problem with adjusting the language. CJCurrie 04:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll accept that (although the word "unfounded" is in quotations, of course). Are you okay with the current wording? CJCurrie 04:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
What Rufin actually wrote on this was "C’est pourquoi nous invitons à réfléchir sur l’opportunité et l’applicabilité d’un texte de loi qui complèterait les dispositions de la loi du 1 juillet 1972 et celles de la loi du 13 juillet 1990 (dite loi Gayssot). Ce texte permettrait de punir ceux qui porteraient sans fondement à l’encontre de groupes, d’institutions ou d’Etats des accusations de racisme et utiliseraient à leur propos des comparaisons injustifiées avec l’apartheid ou le nazisme." Or, roughly, "This is why we propose to consider the appropriateness and the applicability of a text of law which complements/completes the provisions of the law of July 1, 1972 and those of the law of July 13, 1990 (known as law Gayssot). This text would make it possible to punish those who would make unfounded charges of racism against groups, institutions or States, or would make unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism about them." Note that he said unfounded charges of racism but unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism. "Unjustified" implies a requirement for more proof than "unfounded"; it's like the distinction between "preponderance of the evidence" and "probable cause". The Wikipedia article currently reads "Rufin recommended criminalizing what he described as unfounded criticisms of Israel, describing it as a racist or apartheid state." That mixes up the two standards. I'd suggest "Rufin recommended criminalizing unfounded charges of racism, or making unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism, with respect to groups, institutions or States." That's closer to the original. Rufin also did not propose to actually write Israel into the law, which the current Wikipedia text implies. -- John Nagle 06:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
What's thinking on Forster and Epstein's "The New Anti-Semitism", their 1974 book? I've been reading it, and it's such a period piece. They were worried about now-defunct left-wing organizations of the 1960s, the Young Socialist Alliance, Students for a Democratic Society, and the Spartacus League, most of which barely made it to 1974. They make a key point: "In the United States the Radical Left sees the Jewish community and its institutions as part of the "Establishment", an affluent, smug, "liberal" obstacle to the growth of revolutionary conciousness". (p.9) That's where we are today, with leftist anti-globalism protestors being against Israel, as mentioned in the article. The "Establishment", in the US, UK, and Israel, has moved much further to the right since 1974, of course, leaving more room on the left for opposition.
I had no idea that Jesus Christ Superstar, the Broadway musical, was considered anti-Semitic, but this was apparently a big issue in 1973. "For Jews the rock opera was a disaster mitigated only by the fact that the lyrics were often unintelligble and that New York theater prices might well keep many people, even those who liked rock music, away".(p. 93)
Then there was a flap over a book on Meyer Lansky, "the man who organized crime", who was a fugitive hiding in Israel at the time. And Portnoy's Complaint, which was what passed for pornography back then, was considered anti-Semitic.
It's interesting seeing what people were wound up about in the not too distant past. It helps put the issue in perspective. -- John Nagle 20:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
there is no anti-semitism on the right and never has been, it is exclusive property of the left as it always has been, including Nazi Germany, a totalitarian centre-left state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.156.49.1 ( talk • contribs)
What the hell are you blabbering on about?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of serious problems with the way Norman Finkelstein's "Beyond Chutzpah" is presented in this article.
(i) The current summary is unduly focused on one aspect of NF's argument. Finkelstein makes several arguments against the "new anti-Semitism" in "Beyond Chutzpah", but the current version refers only to his suggestion that policies of the Israeli government may lead to animosity against Jews (or, more accurately, that such policies may lead to animosity against Israel and its vocal Jewish supporters in other nations). Casting a spotlight on this particular argument, which is not even NF's primary critique of "new anti-Semitism" proponents, seems both arbitrary and puzzling.
(ii) The caption beside Finkelstein's image currently reads " Norman Finkelstein argues that Israel and its Jewish supporters may themselves be the cause of contemporary anti-Semitism.]]" While this statement is not inaccurate, the context seems skewed and much textual nuance is ignored. A neutral reader might even wonder if the quotation was designed to portray Finkelstein in the most questionable light possible. (As has already been mentioned, this is not even NF's primary argument.)
(iii) The current version begins, " Norman Finkelstein, a political scientist at DePaul University, argues that proponents of the concept of new anti-Semitism are compelled to deny the causal relationship between contemporary anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel, because to acknowledge the relationship would be admit that Israel and its Jewish supporters might themselves be causing anti-Semitism."
There are two problems with this statement.
First, both the sentence structure and meaning are extremely convoluted. The point could surely be expressed in a more lucid manner.
Second, it does not accurately reflect what NF actually writes. Finkelstein's argument (taken from his own words on pp. 77-78) can be summarized as follows:
a) "There is a broad consensus among those treating the topic that the emergence of the new anti-Semitism coincided with the latest flare-up in the Israel-Palestine conflict, reaching a peak during Operation Defensive Shield and the siege of Jenin in the spring of 2002 [...]."
b) "The causal relationship would seem to be that Israel's brutal repression of Palestinians evoked hostility toward the "Jewish state" and its vocal Jewish supporters abroad."
c) "Yet is precisely this causal relationship that Israel's apologists emphatically deny: if Israeli policies, and widespread Jewish support for them, evoke hostility toward Jews, it means that Israel and its Jewish supporters themselves might be causing anti-Semitism; and it might be doing do because Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong."
It is not clear how this argument can be summarized to "proponents of the concept of new anti-Semitism are compelled to deny the causal relationship between contemporary anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel". First, NF is distinguishing between "contemporary anti-Semitism" and "hostility toward Israel and its vocal Jewish supporters abroad" in this section. Second, NF is referring to the relationship between such hostility and the policies of Israel, not criticism of Israel.
(iv) The current version reads, "Finkelstein rejects what he call this "doctrine of essential Jewish innocence." [7] On the contrary, he argues, it is Jews themselves who may be the cause of contemporary anti-Semitism, because "Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong.""
As noted above, this is not an accurate summarization. NF does not argue in this instance that "Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong" -- he rather presents this conclusion as the logical outcome of the aforementioned causal relationship. Also, it is not entirely accurate to summarize the phenomena described by NF as "contemporary anti-Semitism".
I'm going to make some significant adjustments to this section, including giving it a new title and placing it elsewhere in the text. I don't claim that my proposed version is perfect, and I welcome constructive edits and discussion to improve both readability and (if necessary) textual accuracy.
I hope this won't lead to yet another edit war, and I would encourage anyone who disagrees with my assessments (and my remedial actions) to discuss the matter here rather than using a blanket revert as a tool of first resort. CJCurrie 01:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
brianklug
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
I've added a quote from Monsignor Oesterreicher that I think has great relevance to this article. I believe it is in the right place but perhaps some of you veteran editors who have been editing this thing so harmoniously could take a look and see if that is so.-- Mantanmoreland 15:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
The article neuters critics. It does this in two ways. First, the arguments of critics are misportrayed as less critical then they actually are. This is most obvious if one compares Brian Klug's essay " The Myth of the New Anti-Semitism" with the way his views are summarized in the article. The second method of neutering critics is by covering their views in the " What is the new anti-Semitism?" section. There are two subsections of this definition section, " An old phenomenon" and " New, but not anti-Semitism", which actually cover major criticism of the concept but they are subverted and misportrayed as implicitly supporting just with slightly different views of the topic. There should be a distinct criticism section and major critics should go there and their arguments should be accurately portrayed. Also criticisms within the criticism section should be organized topically (like the rest of the article) rather than by the name of the individual making the criticism unless absolutely necessary. -- Ben Houston 21:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The other serious issue with the article is its confusion of the listing of evidence of increased hostility and attacks towards Jewish people and symbols with the specific theory of NAS. The increase in hostility and attacks is real and it should be appropriately condemned and documented in Contemporary anti-Semitism. To view NAS as just describing the increase is to fundamentally misunderstand the concept (as defined by Foxman, Chesler and Klug) and the topic of this article. The concept of NAS, according to Foxman, Chesler and Klug, actually offers a way of understanding this increase as being part of a rising global coalition of anti-Semitism, the reawakening of an old hatred that is, for the most part, devoid of context. This is a specific interpretation of the evidence, an interpretation that leads one to draw specific conclusions, and it is the interpretation of this evidence that critics such as Brian Klug disagree with, not the evidence itself. (To understand where I am coming from I highly recommend reading Brian Klug's essay " The Myth of the New Anti-Semitism", I am parroting him.) -- Ben Houston 21:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC) [comment edited @ 05:46, 11 September 2006)
The article is about the modern theory of NAS, not the term "New anti-Semitism" and its various meanings thoughout history. As such the section covering other historical uses of the term, Changing meanings, is too prominent and serves as a distraction. Could we do the dab thing and create other articles for each of those separate meanings? Or, if multiple other articles is overkill, could we create an article entitled " New anti-Semitism (term)" that describes the various historical uses and meanings of the term? To ensure clarity, but it might be going too far, we could rename this article as " New anti-Semitism (concept)" or " New anti-Semitism (theory)". Or could we make use of a wiktionary entry to cover the various meanings? This will allow us to again focus on the true topic of the article. (I believe that focusing this article will help to clarify that the evidence of an increase in attacks and hostility towards Jewish people and symbols is distinct from the specific and controversial interpretation of these events offered by the theory of NAS.) -- Ben Houston 21:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been editing this article for very long as you know, but I am a bit surprised you would engage in such a significant action without talking about it previously in this article. I must tell you that I think that there is no justification whatsoever for combing out the "historical uses of the term" as a separate article. The article you created is a candidate for speedy deletion if I have ever seen one. I suggest you not proceed with it. -- Mantanmoreland 03:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted. In so doing there was an almost-edit conflict and I unintentionally reverted another editor's more minor changes. Whatever happens to those is a sep issue -- I strongly suggest that the massive move that I reverted not be reinstated.-- Mantanmoreland 03:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I actually agree with BHouston on moving the piece out. The article is way to long, and it is a rather seperate issue. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The article reads: "New anti-Semitism is the concept of an international resurgence of anti-Jewish incidents and attacks on Jewish symbols, as well as the acceptance of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse. It has been described as a "kaleidoscope of old hatreds shattered and rearranged," [1] coming simultaneously from three political directions: the left, Islamism, and the far-right. " This sentenced is referenced to 5 different sources but looks strange to me. I am Persian. I have spent 23 years of my life in Iran watching TV, reading newspapers. There is no such thing as anti-Semitism BUT rather it is all Anti-Zionism. The government of Iran and the television are very careful when they talk about the Jews. They stress that we are bad with Zionism, those who they say have occupied Israel, NOT with Jews in general. Outside of Iran, the situation may be different but definitely not in Iran. The Qur'an respects Judaism and also talks about what it calls "good" Jews and "bad" Jews. Thus, I would like to suggest evaluation of the sources for this sentence. Please fill in the following why you think each of these sources pass WP:RS (i.e. they are academic peer-reviewed sources). Here is the link from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles): [2] ; BTW, it would be great if one can specify page or relevant paragraphs within each source so that one can check them easier. Thanks.
Thanks in advance. -- Aminz 22:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I will appreciate if someone can add a source published by a more famous press. Thanks -- Aminz 23:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Ben, I personally think that "new anti-Semitism" is not a good term because it tries to tie anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, hence implying that whoever opposes the state of Israel actually opposes the whole Jewish community and actually wants to wipes off the whole Jewish community from the earth. This is not true. Jews living now in Iran don't face any particular hostility unless they would be suspected to have been connected to Israel. BUT, this is what *I* think. I am no scholar. I am sure many respected academics would support this idea if it is really true. Some Muslims may assaults on Jews (or persons perceived to be Jewish and Jewish symbols, but I am sure this is either in the context of their conflict with Israel, or has its roots in it. Part of it is natural. I think I can not help much with the article but can learn from it. Thanks to those who are working on this article. -- Aminz 06:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not quite sure if this intro is better than the existing one, but it has one definite quality that should be added to the existing intro. Instead of starting with saying that NAS is a new thing and then saying that critics claim that this thing is more a collection of different phenomena, you present each phenomenon that the concept is supposed to cover, and then say that the proponents say that these trends put together is NAS. In scientific language one may say you are working inductively in stead of deductively. The good thing about this is that one leaves it to the reader wether to see this as one concept pointing to one phenomenon. And a key point of the controversy is well summarized here: "More controversially, some posit, that instead of just being a collection of relatively distinct trends, there are significant and explicit alliances or coalitions between the component trends and that the result is a new form of anti-semitism distinct from classical anti-semitism" pertn 17:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The suggested change to the intro above removes elements that sources identify as key to the concept. We need to stick with what the sources say, and not redefine things based on editor personal opinion. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 22:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion: After carelessly reading this article by Lewis, I tend to agree with the 'existence' of the "new anti-semitism" to some extent. Why don't you guys start the references with a peer-reviewed academic sources published in a famous press rather than a Chief Rabbi. Speaking to myself, how can one expect a Muslim editor, knowing something about the history of Islam and Anti-Semitism, doesn't get suspicous of such a concept when he sees that a Rabbi is the very first reference to this concept.
Question: Please show me a reliable source (not from a Rabbi please) alluding that there is such anti-semitism in Iran. Lewis is always speaking about Arabic countries. Thanks.
-- Aminz 03:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, thanks for finding the Bernard Lewis article, which is very interesting. I've added a section based on it, although I'm worried again about length, so maybe it should be cut down or incorporated into another section (or left out entirely if the length becomes a serious issue).
It would be good to find something from Edward Said. I know he mentioned Arab anti-Semitism in the Ron Rosenbaum book, but there might be a more detailed treatment somewhere. Aminz, I agree wholeheartedly about the need to focus on academic sources. If you have any others you can recommend, for or against the concept, they would be gratefully received. The source doesn't have to use the words "new anti-Semitism" (although preferably should), but it has to be clear that that's what's being discussed i.e. a new form of it, a new wave, etc.
I'm currently reading Pierre-André Taguieff's Rising from the Muck: The New Anti-Semitism in Europe, so I'll try to tidy our mention of him, which is currently secondhand, but without increasing the length. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have feelings either way about whether the cartoon section should stay? SlimVirgin (talk) 12:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else have a view about the first section, "Changing meanings," added by ChrisO, that Bhouston keeps removing? [4] The first two paragraphs are not about this particular concept of new anti-Semitism, so I can see why we might want to remove them. But the third paragraph onwards does seem to be about this concept. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
While this is an interesting and well-sourced section, it does not appear to directly fall into the discussion of "New anti-Semitism", but rather parallel more "old-fashion" descriminatory policies. The bans on Kosher (and I assume Halal) meat does not have a connection, insofar as this section claims, with anti-Zionism or anti-Israel beliefs, which is the core "difference" between the "new" and the "old". The section would do better spun off into its own article (such as Bans on Kosher meat), or in talks of traditional antisemitic practices -- Leflyman Talk 14:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Read the sources, it's cited as part of a new wave of anti-semitism so it's completely germane to the article and not a stretch at all particularly as it involves the animal rights movement and environmentalists who are generally seen as leftists. Farnsworth J 18:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
So no mention of the bans in either the Anti-Semitism or New anti-Semitism articles despite ample sources describing it as such? There should at least be a short metnion in both articles with a link to the new article. Farnsworth J 16:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
"I am shaking my head trying to figure out why there is such enthusiasm to linking this ritual slaughter business to anti-Semitism, when it clearly is an animal rights issue and applies equally to Moslem and Jewish practices."
Believe it or not there are people in this world, particularly in Europe, who hate both Jews and Muslims. Look at the British National Party, the National Front in France and the neo-Nazis in Germany, for instance, all of whom support laws banning ritual slaughter, and are anti-Semitic and anti-Arab. That some left wing animal rights activists work with them on this issue is an illustration of the whole NAS argument. Also, there is a wing of the animal rights movement that is deeply fascist and xenophobic. And again, read the sources which clearly express the view that the anti-Kosher movement is anti-Semitic. Farnsworth J 01:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Since I think it's inappropriate for an article to become a good article while it's the subject of an arbitration request, I removed the nomination. -- Dissident ( Talk) 02:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
This cartoon is, I assume, intended to illustrate the concept of new anti-semitism. Either that or it is inserted as POV-pushing. Either way it is inappropriate for the article.-- Mantanmoreland 13:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Please explain why you find it "inappropriate for the article" as it does illustrate the concept of NAS. // Liftarn
Does anyone have thoughts on the Zipperstein section? I'm inclined to remove it because it's a weak argument, but I'm hesitating because he's a critic of the concept, and removing him would leave us with only Klug as a main academic opponent (plus Chomsky and Finkelstein). Is there another academic critic we could replace Zipperstein with? SlimVirgin (talk) 15:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just shaved another 26 kilobytes off the length. Will try to keep on tightening. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Removed this sentence from the responses section (European Union):
"According to the French Interior Minister, the number of anti-Semitic attacks in France in 2004 was more than double that of the same period in 2003."
The reference supplied [8] does not support the claim, with the most relevant section reading:
"In a March 2005 annual report to the Prime Minister, the National Consultative Commission on Human Rights (NCCHR) indicated that there were 1,565 racist and anti-Semitic incidents in 2004, nearly double the 833 recorded in 2003. The number of anti-Semitic incidents--including physical assaults, attacks against property, cemetery desecrations, threats, and reported insults--increased from 601 in 2003 to 970 in 2004. Disturbingly, the number of incidents occurring in schools nearly tripled. There have been no reported deaths due to anti-Semitic violence since 1995, but 36 persons were injured in anti-Semitic attacks in 2004."
Nor is the information supplied about the source accurate. There are other problems with the sentence apart from its sourcing, conflating France with the EU in particular. -- Nydas 18:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of moving the Earl Raab paragraph from the "rebuttal" section to the "anti-Israelism" section. I hope this decision will not engender much controversy. CJCurrie 23:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Until the 1980s, Jews in the US were generally perceived as left of center. Sometime during the Reagan era, the organized Jewish community started supporting Republicans. [9] 25 years later, it's almost been forgotten that organized Jewry used to be leftist. Today, the Republican/Christian right seems to be strongly aligned with Israel. That's a huge change in position. (Most US Jews still vote Democratic; 77% voted for Kerry. [10]. The leadership, however, is further to the right. [11]).
In Israel, with the decline in Labor and the rise of Likud, something similar happened, with the ruling coalition moving further to the right.
The opposition from the Left has to be seen in this context. More on this later. There's a book on the shift, but I have to find the reference. -- John Nagle 21:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Does David Duke really deserve two paragraphs, a picture, and a link to a video clip in this article? -- John Nagle 19:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The term ‘the new antisemitism’ refers to the current wave, which has swept much of the world since October 2000. It has been characterized as ‘political antisemitism’, on the one hand, because of its use by radical Islamists in their geo-political struggle against the West and its alleged spearhead the Jewish people and its state; and on the other, because of the association made in the media and by public figures between Israel and the Jewish people as an inseparable entity. In parallel, the barriers between antisemitism and anti-Zionism have been lifted and the two merged....
Thus, opportunistic antisemites such as Matt Hale, David Duke and William Pierce aimed at creating a new wave of antisemitism by convincing Americans that the terrorist attacks were the direct result of US support for Israel, and that this support stemmed from complete Jewish domination of the government. [12]
-- Leflyman Talk 18:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)...In order to reinforce their case, Arab commentators quoted western sources which offered similar explanations for the September 11 events. Jawad al-Bashiti quoted American white supremacist David Duke in the Jordanian opposition paper al-‘Arab al-Yawm on 7 January 2002. [13]
-- Leflyman Talk 19:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)The very same antiglobalization movement that prides itself on staging counter-protests against neo-Nazis who crash their rallies links arms with protestors who wave the swastika in the name of Palestinian rights.
...The far right sees nationalist movements and indigenous rights groups as allies in the assault against the multiculturalism of the new world order. And it sees the Palestinians, in particular, as a resistance movement against the modern-day Elders of Zion. American neo-Nazi David Duke summed up this worldview in an essay on his Web site: "These Jewish supremacists have a master plan that should be obvious for anyone to see. They consistently attempt to undermine the culture, racial identity and solidarity, economy, political independence of every nation.…[They] really think they have some divine right to rule over not only Palestine but over the rest of the world as well."( Reprint in YaleGlobal)
I don't see anything in either John Nagle's edits or SlimVirgin's & Jayjg's to indicate that either ought to stay out of editing Jewish-related articles: folks (on both sides), someone not sharing your opinions doesn't mean they ought to go away.
On the other hand, John's "But in terms of actual events, he said" is blather, and SlimVirgin's to this article have done a lot to sharpen and clarify it. I don't think this has much to do with either's politics: I think it just shows that Slim is a better writer. And from what I can tell, she's done a fair bit of writing for the enemy here, and has done it pretty competently, although I'll admit I haven't sorted through exactly which edits are whose, maybe "the enemy" did most of his or her own writing. Still, the Klug material is now better expressed than I originally wrote it, and I didn't do the rewrite. - Jmabel | Talk 09:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
JayJG: I did restore the "Anti-Semitism is crying wolf" cartoon, though; it's a good illustration of the POV of some of those who oppose the concept of New anti-Semitism.
In other words, it's good for a straw-man argument. Thanks Jay: you've given me sufficient grounds to delete it.
If you really want to use a cartoon, why not search out one that Tikkun ran a few years ago (in which members of that group were depicted protesting the occupation of Palestine, while a figure representing "right-wing Zionists" attacked them as anti-Semites and self-haters)? This image was actually attacked as "new anti-Semitism", if memory serves. CJCurrie 23:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
It may represent Latuff's POV, but it's not the first thing readers should see in the "rebuttal" section. Or the second, third or fourth thing. In fact, it's probably best left out entirely.
The cartoon's presence in the article lends itself to a "straw-man argument" in the sense that it portrays NAS-critics in a questionable light at the very beginning of their section. Leaving aside the predictable question of whether of not the image is anti-Semitic (and I recognize that cogent arguments could be made on both sides), it's certain that many readers will conclude that it is. In fact, the cartoon's presence in the article seems calculated to lead readers toward that very conclusion -- and taint everything else in the section by association.
Moreover, I'm not certain that this particular Latuff cartoon (or *any* Latuff cartoon) is significant enough to warrant inclusion in the article. I'd never seen the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" image before this week, and I've not seen any evidence that it's of particular importance to the NAS debate.
By contrast, the Tikkun cartoon has been the subject of debate vis-a-vis "New anti-Semitism", and its presence would not poison the well for the rest of the section. (I'll find the publishing details of said image shortly, and you'll be able to judge for yourself.)
One way or the other, I'm certain we can find something better than the previous image. CJCurrie 03:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I meant to say earlier that I removed the examples just to keep the length down. It might be worth starting a separate article for them. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
CJCurrie, you've changed the definition of New anti-Semitism so that it is now coming from the "Radical" left, rather than just the left. Is that what the sources say? As far as I know, they indicate it comes from all over the left spectrum. Jayjg (talk) 02:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Wistrich is quite clear when he states that This anti-Zionism of the radical leftist camp, profoundly discriminatory towards Jewish nationalism, has now spread into the mainstream liberal left, whose rhetoric relentlessly seeks to undermine the moral and historical legitimacy of a Jewish state. Bauer is also clear when he says it is a basically upper middle class, intellectual phenomenon. It is widespread in the media, in universities, and in well manicured circles. Typical is the statement of the French ambassador to Britain at a cocktail party, later reported in the British Press, referring to Israel, with typical diplomatic politeness and finesse, as that "shitty little country.When Chesler talks about the New anti-Semitism from the left, she's talking about her old buddies; none of them are talking about wild-eyed Marxists. Jayjg (talk) 03:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Pipes hasn't written a book about this, and we're not really using Chesler as a source, but are trying to stick to more academic views.
Jayjg
(talk)
03:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, seven different sources are used for that definition, only one of which is by Sacks.
Jayjg
(talk)
04:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with this section, and I think it needs rewriting. I think it combines two ideas that would be better tackled separately i.e. the far right and new anti-semitism, and Islamism and new anti-semitism. As it is, neither of these are covered on their own, only the matter of their convergence. While I think a section (or subsection) on convergence in ideology between the right and Islamism is valid, I think we need a stronger discussion of what we are claiming in this article are two separate threads of new anti-semitism (the left get their own). There's also an inherent tension in the convergence we assert where the right is 'new' anti-semitism because of a focus on Israel and zionism, while the Islamists are adopting 'old' anti-semitic motifs. Any comments? -- Coroebus 06:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
That "New Anti-semitism" is a term is surely absolutely evident and uncontroversial. Surely the argument is about whether it is a concept or not. Most sources cited here tend to think it is (indeed they have been selected for citation here specifically because they have used the term in a way they find meaningful). However, there are also some sources cited that contest the conceptual utility of the term. Therefore there is an argument for not using the word "concept" in the lead. Itsmejudith 08:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I still think that Sacks is a moderate and appropriate. If you take his point of view he makes total sense. I think he bends over backwards in this paragraph: "Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand, because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque Nazi-style posters? Perhaps." Terrorist attacks on Israel are evidence of anti-Semitism, although those attitudes are obviously driven by the shared tragedy of Palestinian-Israel conflict, but to take those attitudes out of context is to distort things. The many emotive accusations at the Durban conference were problematic since there was a mix of radicals and non-radicals and too many accusations which when lumped together can be perceived by Sacks comes across as too much even if the non-radicals were correct -- the Durban conference was clearly disorganized and ineffective as compared to a focused audience-tested effective political campaign that seeks mass approval such as Bush in 2004. What needs to occur is the advocacy of sensible simple positions within larger coordinated movements that are always aware of the sensitivities involved (such as don't make any stupid Nazi comparisons and watch how close one can be percieved to taking an anti-Zionist position.) I still think that Sacks is a smart guy although you have to understand his perspective, one just has to realize that he's writings are co-opted by others who think less clearly than him in some situations. -- Ben Houston 19:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
John, as stated a number of times, this article is about the current concept of New anti-Semitism, not the term, which, as discussed in New anti-Semitism (term), has actually covered a number of different phenomena, including, for example, what is now known as Racial anti-Semitism. Also, can you explain what makes, for example, Klug an authority on this subject, but people like Sacks, Chesler, and Foxman not authorities? And finally, please don't invent things like "the Jayjg rule", that's really verging on yet another personal attack. Jayjg (talk) 17:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Anti-semitism is so emotive a topic that it helps to perform a thought experiment. Suppose someone were to claim that there is a form of prejudice called anti-kiwism, an irrational hatred of New Zealanders. What might convince us he was right? Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand, because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque Nazi-style posters? Perhaps.
From the article: "Proponents of the concept argue that…"; "Critics of the concept argue that…"; "That there has been a resurgence of anti-Semitic attacks and attitudes is accepted by most opponents of the concept of new anti-Semitism." The article is about a contested idea. To some authorities it is self-evidently not only a concept but a tangible phenomenon, while to others it is an example of chaotic conceptualisation. Four authors are cited as proposers of this concept and each seems to define it in a different way. What is a necessary condition for an anti-semitic action or discourse to count as "new anti-semitism"? That the left should be involved? The far right? Muslims? Two of these in an unholy alliance? All three in an even less holy alliance? Simply that it is occurring in recent decades (e.g. the bans on ritual slaughter)? The article doesn't make this clear. Itsmejudith 19:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
John, please don't convert to templates. The templates are there for individual editors who may not know how to write citations. Once the citations are written, there's no need to add them, and they take up more space. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Citation templates are a generally unhelpful imposition on the editor; they're a special language one must learn in order to cite references in one special way. They add useless verbiage to articles (albeit invisible), and impose an unhelpful burden on editors. The templates in question added nothing of value to this article, since the references were already cited and formatted properly. Let's leave citation templates for those who find comfort in procedure, and stick to more sensible methods of referencing in this article. Jayjg (talk) 15:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Ken, regarding your header change, Klug is saying that what others are calling new anti-Semitism is new, and is a prejudice, but it's not anti-Semitism; hence the header. He says it is a "brand new bug" not a mutation of an existing virus. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I've added a Finkelstein section as discussed earlier. I picked out what I saw as his strongest argument in Beyond Chutzpah and summarized it as accurately as I could. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Given the lengthy section outlining Finkelstein's views, I've removed this paragraph from the "Left and anti-Zionism" section:
Norman Finkelstein dedicates the first third of his book Beyond Chutzpah [5] to new anti-Semitism, arguing that the concept provides political cover to supporters of Israel, and that pro-Zionist groups such as the Anti-Defamation League have brought forward charges of "new anti-Semitism" several times since the early 1970s, each time with the intent of deflecting criticism of Israel. Finkelstein argues that Phyllis Chesler, in The New Anti-Semitism, "barely disguises that alleging a new anti-Semitism is simply the pretext for defending Israel." He writes that Chesler devotes eight pages to "A Brief History of Arab Attacks against Israel, 1908-1970s", but says nothing about Israel's actions against Arabs. [6]
It's not specifically about the Left, the arguments themselves are quite vague and don't really address the points raised, and it generally tries to rebut two sources we haven't even quoted in the article. The new section is vastly superior to this. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
CJ, you've rewritten the sentence to say "Rufin recommended criminalizing what he described as unfounded criticisms of Israel, including those which described it as a racist or apartheid state." This suggests there were other criticisms that he recommended criminalizing. Can you say what they were? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Leaving that point aside for now, I don't have a problem with adjusting the language. CJCurrie 04:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll accept that (although the word "unfounded" is in quotations, of course). Are you okay with the current wording? CJCurrie 04:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
What Rufin actually wrote on this was "C’est pourquoi nous invitons à réfléchir sur l’opportunité et l’applicabilité d’un texte de loi qui complèterait les dispositions de la loi du 1 juillet 1972 et celles de la loi du 13 juillet 1990 (dite loi Gayssot). Ce texte permettrait de punir ceux qui porteraient sans fondement à l’encontre de groupes, d’institutions ou d’Etats des accusations de racisme et utiliseraient à leur propos des comparaisons injustifiées avec l’apartheid ou le nazisme." Or, roughly, "This is why we propose to consider the appropriateness and the applicability of a text of law which complements/completes the provisions of the law of July 1, 1972 and those of the law of July 13, 1990 (known as law Gayssot). This text would make it possible to punish those who would make unfounded charges of racism against groups, institutions or States, or would make unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism about them." Note that he said unfounded charges of racism but unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism. "Unjustified" implies a requirement for more proof than "unfounded"; it's like the distinction between "preponderance of the evidence" and "probable cause". The Wikipedia article currently reads "Rufin recommended criminalizing what he described as unfounded criticisms of Israel, describing it as a racist or apartheid state." That mixes up the two standards. I'd suggest "Rufin recommended criminalizing unfounded charges of racism, or making unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism, with respect to groups, institutions or States." That's closer to the original. Rufin also did not propose to actually write Israel into the law, which the current Wikipedia text implies. -- John Nagle 06:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
What's thinking on Forster and Epstein's "The New Anti-Semitism", their 1974 book? I've been reading it, and it's such a period piece. They were worried about now-defunct left-wing organizations of the 1960s, the Young Socialist Alliance, Students for a Democratic Society, and the Spartacus League, most of which barely made it to 1974. They make a key point: "In the United States the Radical Left sees the Jewish community and its institutions as part of the "Establishment", an affluent, smug, "liberal" obstacle to the growth of revolutionary conciousness". (p.9) That's where we are today, with leftist anti-globalism protestors being against Israel, as mentioned in the article. The "Establishment", in the US, UK, and Israel, has moved much further to the right since 1974, of course, leaving more room on the left for opposition.
I had no idea that Jesus Christ Superstar, the Broadway musical, was considered anti-Semitic, but this was apparently a big issue in 1973. "For Jews the rock opera was a disaster mitigated only by the fact that the lyrics were often unintelligble and that New York theater prices might well keep many people, even those who liked rock music, away".(p. 93)
Then there was a flap over a book on Meyer Lansky, "the man who organized crime", who was a fugitive hiding in Israel at the time. And Portnoy's Complaint, which was what passed for pornography back then, was considered anti-Semitic.
It's interesting seeing what people were wound up about in the not too distant past. It helps put the issue in perspective. -- John Nagle 20:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
there is no anti-semitism on the right and never has been, it is exclusive property of the left as it always has been, including Nazi Germany, a totalitarian centre-left state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.156.49.1 ( talk • contribs)
What the hell are you blabbering on about?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of serious problems with the way Norman Finkelstein's "Beyond Chutzpah" is presented in this article.
(i) The current summary is unduly focused on one aspect of NF's argument. Finkelstein makes several arguments against the "new anti-Semitism" in "Beyond Chutzpah", but the current version refers only to his suggestion that policies of the Israeli government may lead to animosity against Jews (or, more accurately, that such policies may lead to animosity against Israel and its vocal Jewish supporters in other nations). Casting a spotlight on this particular argument, which is not even NF's primary critique of "new anti-Semitism" proponents, seems both arbitrary and puzzling.
(ii) The caption beside Finkelstein's image currently reads " Norman Finkelstein argues that Israel and its Jewish supporters may themselves be the cause of contemporary anti-Semitism.]]" While this statement is not inaccurate, the context seems skewed and much textual nuance is ignored. A neutral reader might even wonder if the quotation was designed to portray Finkelstein in the most questionable light possible. (As has already been mentioned, this is not even NF's primary argument.)
(iii) The current version begins, " Norman Finkelstein, a political scientist at DePaul University, argues that proponents of the concept of new anti-Semitism are compelled to deny the causal relationship between contemporary anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel, because to acknowledge the relationship would be admit that Israel and its Jewish supporters might themselves be causing anti-Semitism."
There are two problems with this statement.
First, both the sentence structure and meaning are extremely convoluted. The point could surely be expressed in a more lucid manner.
Second, it does not accurately reflect what NF actually writes. Finkelstein's argument (taken from his own words on pp. 77-78) can be summarized as follows:
a) "There is a broad consensus among those treating the topic that the emergence of the new anti-Semitism coincided with the latest flare-up in the Israel-Palestine conflict, reaching a peak during Operation Defensive Shield and the siege of Jenin in the spring of 2002 [...]."
b) "The causal relationship would seem to be that Israel's brutal repression of Palestinians evoked hostility toward the "Jewish state" and its vocal Jewish supporters abroad."
c) "Yet is precisely this causal relationship that Israel's apologists emphatically deny: if Israeli policies, and widespread Jewish support for them, evoke hostility toward Jews, it means that Israel and its Jewish supporters themselves might be causing anti-Semitism; and it might be doing do because Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong."
It is not clear how this argument can be summarized to "proponents of the concept of new anti-Semitism are compelled to deny the causal relationship between contemporary anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel". First, NF is distinguishing between "contemporary anti-Semitism" and "hostility toward Israel and its vocal Jewish supporters abroad" in this section. Second, NF is referring to the relationship between such hostility and the policies of Israel, not criticism of Israel.
(iv) The current version reads, "Finkelstein rejects what he call this "doctrine of essential Jewish innocence." [7] On the contrary, he argues, it is Jews themselves who may be the cause of contemporary anti-Semitism, because "Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong.""
As noted above, this is not an accurate summarization. NF does not argue in this instance that "Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong" -- he rather presents this conclusion as the logical outcome of the aforementioned causal relationship. Also, it is not entirely accurate to summarize the phenomena described by NF as "contemporary anti-Semitism".
I'm going to make some significant adjustments to this section, including giving it a new title and placing it elsewhere in the text. I don't claim that my proposed version is perfect, and I welcome constructive edits and discussion to improve both readability and (if necessary) textual accuracy.
I hope this won't lead to yet another edit war, and I would encourage anyone who disagrees with my assessments (and my remedial actions) to discuss the matter here rather than using a blanket revert as a tool of first resort. CJCurrie 01:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
brianklug
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).