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The section entitled "A new phenomenon, but not antisemitism" begins with the statement: That there has been a resurgence of antisemitic attacks and attitudes is accepted by most opponents of the concept of new antisemitism
But when you click on the reference for this statement, you are taken to a couple of comments that specifically deny any such increase has taken place! Gatoclass 12:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
In the lede, the article says that "In the 1980s, radical left-wing movements voiced increasing opposition to Israel, controversially claiming that Zionism was a racist and colonialist movement." (my emphasis) By the 1980s, the idea that Zionism was racist and colonialist was old hat; allegations to that effect were decades old, and the United Nations had adopted a resolution to that effect in 1975. It is historically incorrect to suggest that the concept was new and controversial in the 1980s or that it was uniquely connected to the "radical Left." — Malik Shabazz | Talk 19:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to ask that the following sentence (in bold) be inserted in the article:
As I noted, while Lerner disputes the concept of a "new antisemitism," he has in fact written a book and spoken out publicly about some of the phenomena that are described by the term. I think it is appropriate to mention that in the article to give context to his comments. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 19:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Whenever this article is again available for editing, I request that Category:Judaism-related controversies be added to it for obvious reasons. -- Wassermann 05:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have been asked by User:CJCurrie to remove the page protection, and I will do so within 24 hours, unless there are any good reasons not to, which should be noted below. Thanks, Crum375 01:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Could I request again that the page please be unlocked? The current lockdown goes back until March 13, over two and a half months. I think we've had some success with the discussion, but that the time to try again with an open page has certainly arrived. CJ and I have both requested; Jay suggests we should further discuss the history section, but I believe that is only to the extent CJ was asking for certain changes. I saw Crum was also suggesting mediation, but that none of the parties seem overly enthused about this, while it is not entirely clear what mediation at this point would resolve. In any case, the threat of edit warring seems significantly reduced, and after 2 and a half months it seems the presumption should be almost irrebutable to reopen the page. If we could move this ahead, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Mackan79 19:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I have unprotected - I highly recommend to use the Talk page for any controversial edits. Good luck! Crum375 02:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Raul Hilberg can be considered to be relatively impartial and certainly an historical authority on the Nazi Holocaust- his "Destruction of the European Jews" is a seminal work in Holocaust studies. So his thoughts from a recent interview in Logos seem worth mentioning- "Is There a New Anti-semitism?: A Conversation with Raul Hilberg [ [1]]. In response to a question whether the so-called "New Anti-Semitism" is something we "should take seriously or is this simply a continuance of the older anti-Semitism?" Hilberg Replied...
And who, besides you, decides what verifiable material gets included in an article, based on what criteria, and can such criteria be applied consistently across wikipedia? In this case, it is in fact more clear than you seem to think. Hilberg disputes the concept of a "new anti-semitism"; saying that it amounts to "picking up a few pebbles from the past and throwing them at windows." Whatever anti-semitism now exists pales in comparison to the past when anti-semitism was institutionalized and widely prevalent in social attitudes to the extent that there was segregation and institutionalized prejudices. I think this is an accurate interpretation of his views regarding the concept of "new anti-semtism." As an historian who understands the "Destruction of European Jews" -in depth- and who nevertheless disputes the concept of a "new anti-semitism", his views are notable.
BernardL 03:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Not a bizarre metaphor at all- strikingly apt. And with an accompanying explanation that is not to be belittled considering who is offering the explanation. As far as the disingenuous posture of "editorial judgement" is concerned, we are talking about 3 or 4 sentences perhaps at the expense of none. BernardL 03:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
You don't seem to be bothering yourself with his extended explanation- which is that institutionalized forms of anti-semitism, particularly embedded social attitudes of anti-semitism today pale in comparison to the past to the extent one cannot speak of anti-semitism as a widespread problem in today's context. I think this is a legitimate representation of his views. And yes, these and similar views should be expressed because racism and bigotry have historically been manifested in their most virulent forms when they are institutionalized as embedded social attitudes. Sometimes the "trivially obvious" needs to be expressed to maintain perspective. Moreover, in saying it is "picking up a few pebbles from the past and throwing them at windows" he is disputing the concept of a "new anti-semitism" pretty much categorically. BernardL 04:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It is a reliable source because? -- Cerejota 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for taking so long to finish this post. This should have been completed a month ago; I've been busy with other matters.
I have a number of suggestions for improving the "History" section of this article. There are some things that I'd like to see removed from the current version, some things I'd like to see revised, and some things I'd like to see added. I'll deal with the first two points in this post, and the third at a later time.
On the most basic level, I'd like to see the current History section restructured as a timeline of events, dealing in an objective and dispassionate manner with early (ie. pre-2000) discussions about the concept of a "new antisemitism". I would prefer that this section not include more recent (ie. post-2000) arguments on the historical origins of "new antisemitism"; these arguments are relevant to the modern concept of "NAS", but generally convey a somewhat tendentious view of its historical emergence. (I'm prepared to compromise on this point, though, particularly in the Taguieff section. See below.)
I'm going to take this section-by-section. I've made an effort to suggest revisions which incorporate the concerns of divergent parties, and which avoid the appearance as well as the reality of biased editing. Comments are welcome, and I hope this will lead to good-faith discussions on all sides. CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
I've already stated my objections to this paragraph on many occasions (most notably here and here). I now believe there can be no justification for keeping this paragraph in our article. Solomon M. Schwarz's article is entirely unrelated to the modern concept of "new antisemitism", and was in any event written three years before the so-called "Doctor's plot".
I am not averse to including some reference to the influence of Soviet anti-Semitism on the concept of "new antisemitism", if modern authors have made this connection (indeed, the Taguieff paragraph suggests a practical way of approaching this subject). The Commentary paragraph, however, must be deleted. CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
First, a technical point: Taguieff's book was published in 2002, not 2004. The latter date refers to its translation and publication in America. In the comments that follow, I will use 2002 as the date of publication.
Second, a clarification: Some time ago, I argued that the wording of the above paragraph did not indicate whether or not the papers by Givet and Poliakov were relevant to the modern concept of "new antisemitism". I've since had a chance to consult these works, and am prepared to drop this objection.
This takes us to the main point at issue. Our current paragraph is a rough transcription of the first paragraph of Taguieff's translated "Rising from the Muck", Chapter Three, "Construction, Content, Functioning, and Metamorphoses of the "New Anti-Semitism": Toward the Islamization of Absolute Anti-Zionism". The original paragraph appears as follows on pp. 62-63 of Taguieff's book (any typographical errors are my own):
(Note: There are no references in this passage to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, nor to Palestinian deaths during the first Intifada. These are instead mentioned on pp. 64-65, wherein Taguieff outlines what he describes as the second wave of the "new antisemitism".)
There are some problems with our current summarization of Taguieff's paragraph:
(i) On a minor technical note, it seems inappropriate for us to identify the disputed NAS concept as simply "the new antisemitism" in our first sentence. This wording implies that we are dealing with an actual and undisputed phenomonen, when there is in fact no agreement on this point. (To prevent confusion: I would not dispute that the phenomena described by Taguieff are anti-Semitic; whether they constitute "new antisemitism" in the modern sense of the term is much less clear.)
(ii) More fundamentally, the current paragraph doesn't really fit with the chronological flow the history section. Much of it refers to Taguieff's arguments/extrapolations written in 2002, and not to the actual discussions surrounding the NAS concept in prior decades. As I've already noted, this doesn't strike me as the best approach for our History section.
What then should be done to fix the paragraph? If it were entirely up to me, I would (i) shift the focus from Taguieff to Givet and Poliakov, (ii) explicitly focus on the "NAS" concept's emergence in France in the late 1960s, (iii) shift Taguieff's arguments to a new section of the article dealing with the recent history of the NAS concept.
I suspect, however, that these proposals would only lead to another round of slow-motion debates, and end without any resolution. In the interests of moving forward with improving the page, then, I'm willing to present the following as a compromise proposal:
More information perhaps could be provided about Givet's and Poliakov's works, if others are interested in pursuing this theme. I'll leave that to someone else, however.
By the way, I haven't been able to obtain a french-language copy of Taguieff's book. Does anyone involved in this discussion have it? CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Jayjg has argued that these paragraphs should be excised from the article, on the grounds that (i) the Forster/Epstein book offers an idiosyncratic definition of "new antisemitism" which is not relevant to our purposes, and (ii) the book is more notable for the opposition it has garnered (ie. Brownfeld, and pp. 21-26 of Norman Finkelstein's Beyond Chutzpah) than for the arguments it raises. I would beg to differ.
The Forster/Epstein book argues that a new anti-Semitism emerged in the United States following the 1967 and 1973 wars, grounded in part in anti-Zionism and political opposition to Israel. The authors identify this development as emanating from several sources, including the radical right, "Arabs and pro-Arabs" (to use the politically incorrect terminology favoured by the ADL authors) and the radical left. The Forster/Epstein book was also criticized at the time of its release (see below) for offering a problematic definition of "new antisemitism", and for conflating all political opposition to Israel with anti-Semitism. In other words, the book is entirely relevant to the current debates surrounding the "new antisemitism" concept: it should be kept, and improved.
Incidentally, the Givet and Poliakov publications from 1968 and 1969 were extended, book-length essays. Leaving aside its other problems, the phrase "appears to be the first book-length treatment of the subject" is factually inaccurate and needs to be dropped.
The first paragraph (dealing specifically with Forster and Epstein) should be reworded to read as follows:
[Citations: "Gerald Smith's Road" (19-48) + "The Radical Right" (285-296), "Arabs and Pro-Arabs" (155-174), "The Radical Left" (125-154); the "heart of the new anti-Semitism" quote may be found on p. 324.]
For the "response" paragraph, I am prepared to excise the Brownfeld material (or at least relegate him to the footnotes, or perhaps another section of the article). In his place, I would recommend that we instead focus on a review that Earl Raab wrote for Commentary magazine in May 1974 (pp. 53-55).
Raab's response to Forster/Epstein is quite interesting, insofar as he argued that there was a new anti-Semitism emerging in America at the time, centred in opposition to the collective rights of the Jewish people. However, he was also critical of the vague and all-encompassing definition favoured by Forster and Epstein, and specifically criticized their depiction of political opposition to Israel as being inherently anti-Semitic (for all intents and purposes). An extended quote should suffice to demonstrate this point:
Raab's views may be summarized as follows:
CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
The Wistrich paragraph is factually accurate in its current form, but is also a bit selective in the facts it presents. I would recommend expanding it to read as follows:
Two further comments:
(i) I would recommend appending Abba Eban's statement to the end of this paragraph, rather than the beginning of the next one. I haven't yet been able to obtain a copy of Daniel Rubin's book, and will have to assume that the Eban quote is accurate and fairly cited.
(ii) Readers might notice that there's something missing from this paragraph: a representative statement of the radical left's views. If we're going to present this issue in a balanced and NPOV manner, it would be in our interests to include a statment from a prominent radical Left figure responding to the charge of anti-Semitism. I'll try to find such a statement in the near future.
Concerning the Oesterreicher section ... frankly, I'm not certain what this is doing here. Oesterreicher isn't discussing "new antisemitism", or even old anti-Semitism, in any conceptual sense. He's referring to the international criticism of Israel that followed the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. His comments (which I don't object to in principle, btw) might be relevant to Wikipedia's article on Antisemitism, but I can't see why we're including them here.
I'd be prepared to change my opinion, if anyone can present a compelling reason for keeping the reference. CJCurrie 00:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Update: I've now adjusted the Wistrich paragraph, retaining the phrase "grotesque Soviet blood-libels" in order to accommodate Jay's concerns. I've also included a Tariq Ali quote, on the grounds that a representative statement from the radical left should be included as a response to Wistrich and Eban. I hope that other editors will accept the quote in this spirit.
I've also removed the Oesterreicher section, as no-one has challenged my previous comments concerning its relevance. CJCurrie 01:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
The last footnote is somewhat telling. I find myself in agreement with almost everything Chip Berlet has written here (although I wouldn't apply his conclusions to all of the left), but I'm not convinced that this is relevant to the "New antisemitism" article.
Some time ago, our article inaccurately described "New antisemitism" as being first and foremost a term referring to the concept of antisemitism coming from three diverse sources (radical right, radical left, radical Islam). During this period, it might have seemed justifiable to keep Berlet's observations in our article. Now, I'm not certain why we're retaining these paragraphs.
As before, I'd be willing to reconsider my position if anyone can produce a compelling reason for retaining the Berlet section. CJCurrie 00:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I object (almost) categorically to the inclusion of the Berlet material. As currently interpolated it is original research. Berlet doesn’t mention the “new anti-Semitism.” Rather, he puts forth a thesis that reminds Wikipedians of NAS. This sort of OR is very familiar in articles on controversial concepts; anyone who has edited over at Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, for example, will have seen editorial attempts to add material about Israeli policies from sources that don’t mention “Israeli apartheid,” but nevertheless remind Wikipedians of that concept. Such material is rightly (and usually immediately) removed, often as not by Jayjg.
The material also appears to violate WP:UNDUE. The material on the “new anti-Semitism” is voluminous (the great bulk of it journalistic and activist as opposed to scholarly, notwithstanding our presentation, but that’s an issue for another time). None of this material, unless I’m mistaken, cites or mentions Berlet. And yet we give him three paragraphs in our six-paragraph history of the concept.
I think a big part of the problem here is an ambiguity about this “history” rubric itself. Does this section present a history of the concept, or a history of the alleged phenomenon? Equivocating between the two rubrics creates a serious – and I would have thought obvious – POV issue.
I say I am “almost” categorically opposed to the inclusion of Berlet. Either of the two following scenarios would make the Berlet material (albeit in modified form) acceptable:
With regards to scenario #2, private correspondence and/or talk posts from user:Chipberlet will not suffice, because we need something we can quote. Absent that our inclusion of the material works subtly to affirm the existence of the phenomenon the concept describes. Any such affirmation violates NPOV. Our job is to present the concept, not independently adduce evidence for it.-- G-Dett 08:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The second claim is that concern about "the new anti-Semitism" represents and entirely dishonest attempts by Jews supportive of the aims of the Israel lobby to smear pro-Palestinian journalists and intellectuals, including the authors: "Israel's advocates, when pressed, claim there is a 'new antisemitism' which they equate with criticism of Israel." Speaking as a non-Jew, I have read most of what has been published so far on "the new anti-Semitism", most of it, as I said in the Preface, by Jews. None of this writing, to my knowledge, asserts equivalence between anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel. How one might set about justifying such an equation I have no idea, not least given the fact that the Jewish community itself... is alive with vociferous critics of Israel." Bernard Harrison, The Resurgence of Anti-Semitism: Jews, Israel, and Liberal Opinion, p. 201.
<---------And what I am saying is that I see both "straw" arguments used all the time, and disagree with both. But for this entry, I would like to talk about how the term "New Antisemitism" is used in different ways by different authors, explain those different ways, and then briefly mention both straw arguments, using quotes from people who make them and do not consider them straw arguments, and then using quotes from people who do consider them straw arguments. Our job here is not to determine the "truth," but help readers understand a complicated term mired in a controversial and often bigoted debate.-- Cberlet 14:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to see a supplement added to the "History" section, dealing with the emergence of the "new antisemitism" concept after 2000. I'll save that for another post, however. CJCurrie 00:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I notice that a 1983 quote from Monsignor John M. Oesterreicher was removed since I last edited this article. He believed that "prejudice" was the reason Israel was being singled out for criticism. See [3]. Any objection if I put it back in somewhere?-- Mantanmoreland 13:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added since no one objected. While not specifically referencing "new Anti-Semitism" by name, this quote indicates clearly that a leading Roman Catholic theologian embraced the concept.-- Mantanmoreland 15:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the rather obvious issue of poisoning the well, which would preclude any of these descriptions of Foreign Policy magazine, you can't make a claim based on your personal interpretation of an interview with one of the magazine's editors. Please review WP:NOR and WP:V. Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
On the 17th an anon inserted the name "Brian" before a reference to Brian Klug. I could understand inserting the first name if this were the first time he were mentioned, or if he had been mentioned earlier but there had been several intervening sections since which didn't mention him, or more than one Klug mentioned was mentioned in the article. However, the insertion in question was in a sub-section of a whole section devoted to Brian Klug's views, in which he is named no less that a dozen times. His name is used in a large pull-quote, and there is even a picture of him with his name. Do we imagine the reader has suddenly forgotten which Klug we were talking about a couple of sentences earlier? Or are we trying to indicate that this is a different Klug? And yet, when I removed that neoplasm, I was reverted with the claim that "Wistrich is also named, and Wikilinked". Of course Wistrich is named and Wikilinked at that point, since it's the first time he has appeared in the text of the article. You don't see him constantly being referred to as "Robert Wistrich" after that initial introduction. Jayjg (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Do other editors agree with Isarig's observation that it constitutes well-poisoning to describe the journal "Foreign Policy" as right-of-centre? CJCurrie 23:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason why there's an external link to "Myth of New antisemitism" under See also as opposed to References or Further reading? — Malik Shabazz ( Talk | contribs) 00:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Jeff Halper from israeli committee against house demolitions, was interviewed by norwegian TV (actually on kind of a travel program). I just thought some of his comments may be interesting for the article, though somewhat similar views are probably covered elsewhere in the article. The interview can be viewed here: http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/142202 From 25:00 and onwards a minute or two. He claims NAS is a new cynical pr tool, and that "the NAS says: Every critizism of Israel is anti-semitism." and a few other things. Could this be a useful source? if so, please help yourself! pertn 13:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The position of critics needs to be in the article, however, this section is just a Finkelstein soapbox. What makes him more of an authority than say Chomsky or other critics? <<-armon->> 23:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Any other comments on the WP:UNDUE issue I'm bringing up here? <<-armon->> 23:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
This section should be expanded. Finkelstein is one of the best sources for this article, having produced one of the most highly regarded works of scholarship on the subject. It is also one of the most thoroughly vetted and peer-reviewed political science books in recent years, due to the extensive legal pressures Dershowitz brought to bear on California government officials and the University of California press in his efforts to have its publication suppressed. Bernard Lewis is an impressive old-school Arabist (and politically controversial in his own way), but his expertise on the subject of this article is not by any serious measure greater than Finkelstein's.
Incidentally, Finkelstein will not cease to be an "academic" after "the next year or so," when the consequences of Dershowitz's character assassination and Stalinist putsch have run their full course. The stature of an academic is decided not by their day job or teaching schedule but by their recognized contribution to the field, and Finkelstein's is major.
At any rate, CJ is certainly right that this section needs to be beefed up. Someone reading the article in its present form might reasonably conclude that the idea of "new antisemitism" is a highly respected scholarly theory, when in fact it is mostly a journalistic trope. And one that had its heyday in the context of the second intifada and the war on terror, but now seems to be quickly approaching its sell-by date.-- G-Dett 11:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
(i) Raab and Zipperstein were not merely referring to "criticism of Israel" in their articles. They were instead distinguishing "anti-Israelism" from "anti-Semitism".
(ii) The "response" sub-header was added several months ago, and then deleted by SlimVirgin without an explanation. I've chosen to return it, and I expect that it will not be removed without an explanation.
(iii) The Independent Jewish Voices material is entirely relevant to the subject matter.
(iv) The link to Progressive Jewish Thought and the New anti-Semitism is also relevant.
Please don't revert these changes. If you disagree with the positioning of the Berlet material, let's discuss it here. CJCurrie 23:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
By way of an explanation for my change: Wikipedia articles must not only be written from a NPOV standpoint, but should also avoid the appearance of partisan attacks on public figures. Having pictures of Tariq Ali and Noam Chomsky under the heading "The Left and anti-Zionism", in a discussion about perceived new trends in anti-Semitism, could very easily lead inattentive readers to draw an unflattering conclusion (and to miss the point that these authors were responding to general criticisms).
Several editors have removed this sub-header without any explanation. I trust that anyone who wishes to remove it now will first engage with my concerns. CJCurrie 04:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I've also returned the material on Independent Jewish Voices, which is at least as significant as the material on the Euston Manifesto. CJCurrie 04:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Armon has removed the following paragraph (which I've long regarded as problematic and possibly superfluous). Do other editors believe that it should be retained:
inkelstein identifies several proponents of the concept of new antisemitism who appear to contradict themselves or each other on the issue of whether to identify Jews with Israel. Phyllis Chesler argues, on the one hand, that "anyone who does not distinguish between Jews and the Jewish state is an anti-Semite," but on the other that "Israel is our heart and soul ... we are family." [1] Gabriel Schoenfeld, the editor of Commentary magazine, writes that "Iranian anti-Semitic propagandists make a point of erasing all distinctions among Israel, Zionism and the Jews," [2] while Hillel Halkin argues that "Israel is the state of the Jews ... To defame Israel is to defame the Jews," [3] and Italian journalist Fiamma Nirenstein that "Jews everywhere should consider their being identified with Israel a virtue and honor." [4] It would seem to be anti-Semitic, Finkelstein concludes, "both to identify and not to identify Israel with Jews." [5]
CJCurrie 02:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm reading through the references that supposedly support the claim that "the far right made overtures to anti-war activists on the left to join forces against government policies in areas where they shared concerns,[18] mainly civil liberties, opposition to U.S. military intervention overseas, and opposition to U.S. support for Israel." It simply isn't there. There is NO documentation that I'm seeing that the right made any overture to join forces. What the Public Eye does seem to be saying is that anyone taking a position that differs from their own editorial view is de facto in league somehow with The Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. However, this is an article about the concept "The New Antisemitism." The Public Eye material is NOT history that's any more than peripherally (and with no small amount of editorial bias) related to this article. saying some fringe anti-Semite sat on a panel in a little anti-war meeting somewhere 17 years ago hardly seems lile encyclopedic documentation that "the far right made overtures to anti-war activists on the left to join forces..." on anything. As to the other examples, they are mixing speculation with fact, namely, the magazines speculation that anti-war rhetoric from tjhe right is directed at progressives--this is far different than any actual evidence of recruitment of th left by the right. Boodlesthecat 17:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
The section entitled "A new phenomenon, but not antisemitism" begins with the statement: That there has been a resurgence of antisemitic attacks and attitudes is accepted by most opponents of the concept of new antisemitism
But when you click on the reference for this statement, you are taken to a couple of comments that specifically deny any such increase has taken place! Gatoclass 12:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
In the lede, the article says that "In the 1980s, radical left-wing movements voiced increasing opposition to Israel, controversially claiming that Zionism was a racist and colonialist movement." (my emphasis) By the 1980s, the idea that Zionism was racist and colonialist was old hat; allegations to that effect were decades old, and the United Nations had adopted a resolution to that effect in 1975. It is historically incorrect to suggest that the concept was new and controversial in the 1980s or that it was uniquely connected to the "radical Left." — Malik Shabazz | Talk 19:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to ask that the following sentence (in bold) be inserted in the article:
As I noted, while Lerner disputes the concept of a "new antisemitism," he has in fact written a book and spoken out publicly about some of the phenomena that are described by the term. I think it is appropriate to mention that in the article to give context to his comments. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 19:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Whenever this article is again available for editing, I request that Category:Judaism-related controversies be added to it for obvious reasons. -- Wassermann 05:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have been asked by User:CJCurrie to remove the page protection, and I will do so within 24 hours, unless there are any good reasons not to, which should be noted below. Thanks, Crum375 01:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Could I request again that the page please be unlocked? The current lockdown goes back until March 13, over two and a half months. I think we've had some success with the discussion, but that the time to try again with an open page has certainly arrived. CJ and I have both requested; Jay suggests we should further discuss the history section, but I believe that is only to the extent CJ was asking for certain changes. I saw Crum was also suggesting mediation, but that none of the parties seem overly enthused about this, while it is not entirely clear what mediation at this point would resolve. In any case, the threat of edit warring seems significantly reduced, and after 2 and a half months it seems the presumption should be almost irrebutable to reopen the page. If we could move this ahead, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Mackan79 19:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I have unprotected - I highly recommend to use the Talk page for any controversial edits. Good luck! Crum375 02:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Raul Hilberg can be considered to be relatively impartial and certainly an historical authority on the Nazi Holocaust- his "Destruction of the European Jews" is a seminal work in Holocaust studies. So his thoughts from a recent interview in Logos seem worth mentioning- "Is There a New Anti-semitism?: A Conversation with Raul Hilberg [ [1]]. In response to a question whether the so-called "New Anti-Semitism" is something we "should take seriously or is this simply a continuance of the older anti-Semitism?" Hilberg Replied...
And who, besides you, decides what verifiable material gets included in an article, based on what criteria, and can such criteria be applied consistently across wikipedia? In this case, it is in fact more clear than you seem to think. Hilberg disputes the concept of a "new anti-semitism"; saying that it amounts to "picking up a few pebbles from the past and throwing them at windows." Whatever anti-semitism now exists pales in comparison to the past when anti-semitism was institutionalized and widely prevalent in social attitudes to the extent that there was segregation and institutionalized prejudices. I think this is an accurate interpretation of his views regarding the concept of "new anti-semtism." As an historian who understands the "Destruction of European Jews" -in depth- and who nevertheless disputes the concept of a "new anti-semitism", his views are notable.
BernardL 03:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Not a bizarre metaphor at all- strikingly apt. And with an accompanying explanation that is not to be belittled considering who is offering the explanation. As far as the disingenuous posture of "editorial judgement" is concerned, we are talking about 3 or 4 sentences perhaps at the expense of none. BernardL 03:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
You don't seem to be bothering yourself with his extended explanation- which is that institutionalized forms of anti-semitism, particularly embedded social attitudes of anti-semitism today pale in comparison to the past to the extent one cannot speak of anti-semitism as a widespread problem in today's context. I think this is a legitimate representation of his views. And yes, these and similar views should be expressed because racism and bigotry have historically been manifested in their most virulent forms when they are institutionalized as embedded social attitudes. Sometimes the "trivially obvious" needs to be expressed to maintain perspective. Moreover, in saying it is "picking up a few pebbles from the past and throwing them at windows" he is disputing the concept of a "new anti-semitism" pretty much categorically. BernardL 04:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It is a reliable source because? -- Cerejota 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for taking so long to finish this post. This should have been completed a month ago; I've been busy with other matters.
I have a number of suggestions for improving the "History" section of this article. There are some things that I'd like to see removed from the current version, some things I'd like to see revised, and some things I'd like to see added. I'll deal with the first two points in this post, and the third at a later time.
On the most basic level, I'd like to see the current History section restructured as a timeline of events, dealing in an objective and dispassionate manner with early (ie. pre-2000) discussions about the concept of a "new antisemitism". I would prefer that this section not include more recent (ie. post-2000) arguments on the historical origins of "new antisemitism"; these arguments are relevant to the modern concept of "NAS", but generally convey a somewhat tendentious view of its historical emergence. (I'm prepared to compromise on this point, though, particularly in the Taguieff section. See below.)
I'm going to take this section-by-section. I've made an effort to suggest revisions which incorporate the concerns of divergent parties, and which avoid the appearance as well as the reality of biased editing. Comments are welcome, and I hope this will lead to good-faith discussions on all sides. CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
I've already stated my objections to this paragraph on many occasions (most notably here and here). I now believe there can be no justification for keeping this paragraph in our article. Solomon M. Schwarz's article is entirely unrelated to the modern concept of "new antisemitism", and was in any event written three years before the so-called "Doctor's plot".
I am not averse to including some reference to the influence of Soviet anti-Semitism on the concept of "new antisemitism", if modern authors have made this connection (indeed, the Taguieff paragraph suggests a practical way of approaching this subject). The Commentary paragraph, however, must be deleted. CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
First, a technical point: Taguieff's book was published in 2002, not 2004. The latter date refers to its translation and publication in America. In the comments that follow, I will use 2002 as the date of publication.
Second, a clarification: Some time ago, I argued that the wording of the above paragraph did not indicate whether or not the papers by Givet and Poliakov were relevant to the modern concept of "new antisemitism". I've since had a chance to consult these works, and am prepared to drop this objection.
This takes us to the main point at issue. Our current paragraph is a rough transcription of the first paragraph of Taguieff's translated "Rising from the Muck", Chapter Three, "Construction, Content, Functioning, and Metamorphoses of the "New Anti-Semitism": Toward the Islamization of Absolute Anti-Zionism". The original paragraph appears as follows on pp. 62-63 of Taguieff's book (any typographical errors are my own):
(Note: There are no references in this passage to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, nor to Palestinian deaths during the first Intifada. These are instead mentioned on pp. 64-65, wherein Taguieff outlines what he describes as the second wave of the "new antisemitism".)
There are some problems with our current summarization of Taguieff's paragraph:
(i) On a minor technical note, it seems inappropriate for us to identify the disputed NAS concept as simply "the new antisemitism" in our first sentence. This wording implies that we are dealing with an actual and undisputed phenomonen, when there is in fact no agreement on this point. (To prevent confusion: I would not dispute that the phenomena described by Taguieff are anti-Semitic; whether they constitute "new antisemitism" in the modern sense of the term is much less clear.)
(ii) More fundamentally, the current paragraph doesn't really fit with the chronological flow the history section. Much of it refers to Taguieff's arguments/extrapolations written in 2002, and not to the actual discussions surrounding the NAS concept in prior decades. As I've already noted, this doesn't strike me as the best approach for our History section.
What then should be done to fix the paragraph? If it were entirely up to me, I would (i) shift the focus from Taguieff to Givet and Poliakov, (ii) explicitly focus on the "NAS" concept's emergence in France in the late 1960s, (iii) shift Taguieff's arguments to a new section of the article dealing with the recent history of the NAS concept.
I suspect, however, that these proposals would only lead to another round of slow-motion debates, and end without any resolution. In the interests of moving forward with improving the page, then, I'm willing to present the following as a compromise proposal:
More information perhaps could be provided about Givet's and Poliakov's works, if others are interested in pursuing this theme. I'll leave that to someone else, however.
By the way, I haven't been able to obtain a french-language copy of Taguieff's book. Does anyone involved in this discussion have it? CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Jayjg has argued that these paragraphs should be excised from the article, on the grounds that (i) the Forster/Epstein book offers an idiosyncratic definition of "new antisemitism" which is not relevant to our purposes, and (ii) the book is more notable for the opposition it has garnered (ie. Brownfeld, and pp. 21-26 of Norman Finkelstein's Beyond Chutzpah) than for the arguments it raises. I would beg to differ.
The Forster/Epstein book argues that a new anti-Semitism emerged in the United States following the 1967 and 1973 wars, grounded in part in anti-Zionism and political opposition to Israel. The authors identify this development as emanating from several sources, including the radical right, "Arabs and pro-Arabs" (to use the politically incorrect terminology favoured by the ADL authors) and the radical left. The Forster/Epstein book was also criticized at the time of its release (see below) for offering a problematic definition of "new antisemitism", and for conflating all political opposition to Israel with anti-Semitism. In other words, the book is entirely relevant to the current debates surrounding the "new antisemitism" concept: it should be kept, and improved.
Incidentally, the Givet and Poliakov publications from 1968 and 1969 were extended, book-length essays. Leaving aside its other problems, the phrase "appears to be the first book-length treatment of the subject" is factually inaccurate and needs to be dropped.
The first paragraph (dealing specifically with Forster and Epstein) should be reworded to read as follows:
[Citations: "Gerald Smith's Road" (19-48) + "The Radical Right" (285-296), "Arabs and Pro-Arabs" (155-174), "The Radical Left" (125-154); the "heart of the new anti-Semitism" quote may be found on p. 324.]
For the "response" paragraph, I am prepared to excise the Brownfeld material (or at least relegate him to the footnotes, or perhaps another section of the article). In his place, I would recommend that we instead focus on a review that Earl Raab wrote for Commentary magazine in May 1974 (pp. 53-55).
Raab's response to Forster/Epstein is quite interesting, insofar as he argued that there was a new anti-Semitism emerging in America at the time, centred in opposition to the collective rights of the Jewish people. However, he was also critical of the vague and all-encompassing definition favoured by Forster and Epstein, and specifically criticized their depiction of political opposition to Israel as being inherently anti-Semitic (for all intents and purposes). An extended quote should suffice to demonstrate this point:
Raab's views may be summarized as follows:
CJCurrie 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
The Wistrich paragraph is factually accurate in its current form, but is also a bit selective in the facts it presents. I would recommend expanding it to read as follows:
Two further comments:
(i) I would recommend appending Abba Eban's statement to the end of this paragraph, rather than the beginning of the next one. I haven't yet been able to obtain a copy of Daniel Rubin's book, and will have to assume that the Eban quote is accurate and fairly cited.
(ii) Readers might notice that there's something missing from this paragraph: a representative statement of the radical left's views. If we're going to present this issue in a balanced and NPOV manner, it would be in our interests to include a statment from a prominent radical Left figure responding to the charge of anti-Semitism. I'll try to find such a statement in the near future.
Concerning the Oesterreicher section ... frankly, I'm not certain what this is doing here. Oesterreicher isn't discussing "new antisemitism", or even old anti-Semitism, in any conceptual sense. He's referring to the international criticism of Israel that followed the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. His comments (which I don't object to in principle, btw) might be relevant to Wikipedia's article on Antisemitism, but I can't see why we're including them here.
I'd be prepared to change my opinion, if anyone can present a compelling reason for keeping the reference. CJCurrie 00:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Update: I've now adjusted the Wistrich paragraph, retaining the phrase "grotesque Soviet blood-libels" in order to accommodate Jay's concerns. I've also included a Tariq Ali quote, on the grounds that a representative statement from the radical left should be included as a response to Wistrich and Eban. I hope that other editors will accept the quote in this spirit.
I've also removed the Oesterreicher section, as no-one has challenged my previous comments concerning its relevance. CJCurrie 01:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
The last footnote is somewhat telling. I find myself in agreement with almost everything Chip Berlet has written here (although I wouldn't apply his conclusions to all of the left), but I'm not convinced that this is relevant to the "New antisemitism" article.
Some time ago, our article inaccurately described "New antisemitism" as being first and foremost a term referring to the concept of antisemitism coming from three diverse sources (radical right, radical left, radical Islam). During this period, it might have seemed justifiable to keep Berlet's observations in our article. Now, I'm not certain why we're retaining these paragraphs.
As before, I'd be willing to reconsider my position if anyone can produce a compelling reason for retaining the Berlet section. CJCurrie 00:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I object (almost) categorically to the inclusion of the Berlet material. As currently interpolated it is original research. Berlet doesn’t mention the “new anti-Semitism.” Rather, he puts forth a thesis that reminds Wikipedians of NAS. This sort of OR is very familiar in articles on controversial concepts; anyone who has edited over at Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, for example, will have seen editorial attempts to add material about Israeli policies from sources that don’t mention “Israeli apartheid,” but nevertheless remind Wikipedians of that concept. Such material is rightly (and usually immediately) removed, often as not by Jayjg.
The material also appears to violate WP:UNDUE. The material on the “new anti-Semitism” is voluminous (the great bulk of it journalistic and activist as opposed to scholarly, notwithstanding our presentation, but that’s an issue for another time). None of this material, unless I’m mistaken, cites or mentions Berlet. And yet we give him three paragraphs in our six-paragraph history of the concept.
I think a big part of the problem here is an ambiguity about this “history” rubric itself. Does this section present a history of the concept, or a history of the alleged phenomenon? Equivocating between the two rubrics creates a serious – and I would have thought obvious – POV issue.
I say I am “almost” categorically opposed to the inclusion of Berlet. Either of the two following scenarios would make the Berlet material (albeit in modified form) acceptable:
With regards to scenario #2, private correspondence and/or talk posts from user:Chipberlet will not suffice, because we need something we can quote. Absent that our inclusion of the material works subtly to affirm the existence of the phenomenon the concept describes. Any such affirmation violates NPOV. Our job is to present the concept, not independently adduce evidence for it.-- G-Dett 08:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The second claim is that concern about "the new anti-Semitism" represents and entirely dishonest attempts by Jews supportive of the aims of the Israel lobby to smear pro-Palestinian journalists and intellectuals, including the authors: "Israel's advocates, when pressed, claim there is a 'new antisemitism' which they equate with criticism of Israel." Speaking as a non-Jew, I have read most of what has been published so far on "the new anti-Semitism", most of it, as I said in the Preface, by Jews. None of this writing, to my knowledge, asserts equivalence between anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel. How one might set about justifying such an equation I have no idea, not least given the fact that the Jewish community itself... is alive with vociferous critics of Israel." Bernard Harrison, The Resurgence of Anti-Semitism: Jews, Israel, and Liberal Opinion, p. 201.
<---------And what I am saying is that I see both "straw" arguments used all the time, and disagree with both. But for this entry, I would like to talk about how the term "New Antisemitism" is used in different ways by different authors, explain those different ways, and then briefly mention both straw arguments, using quotes from people who make them and do not consider them straw arguments, and then using quotes from people who do consider them straw arguments. Our job here is not to determine the "truth," but help readers understand a complicated term mired in a controversial and often bigoted debate.-- Cberlet 14:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to see a supplement added to the "History" section, dealing with the emergence of the "new antisemitism" concept after 2000. I'll save that for another post, however. CJCurrie 00:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I notice that a 1983 quote from Monsignor John M. Oesterreicher was removed since I last edited this article. He believed that "prejudice" was the reason Israel was being singled out for criticism. See [3]. Any objection if I put it back in somewhere?-- Mantanmoreland 13:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added since no one objected. While not specifically referencing "new Anti-Semitism" by name, this quote indicates clearly that a leading Roman Catholic theologian embraced the concept.-- Mantanmoreland 15:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the rather obvious issue of poisoning the well, which would preclude any of these descriptions of Foreign Policy magazine, you can't make a claim based on your personal interpretation of an interview with one of the magazine's editors. Please review WP:NOR and WP:V. Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
On the 17th an anon inserted the name "Brian" before a reference to Brian Klug. I could understand inserting the first name if this were the first time he were mentioned, or if he had been mentioned earlier but there had been several intervening sections since which didn't mention him, or more than one Klug mentioned was mentioned in the article. However, the insertion in question was in a sub-section of a whole section devoted to Brian Klug's views, in which he is named no less that a dozen times. His name is used in a large pull-quote, and there is even a picture of him with his name. Do we imagine the reader has suddenly forgotten which Klug we were talking about a couple of sentences earlier? Or are we trying to indicate that this is a different Klug? And yet, when I removed that neoplasm, I was reverted with the claim that "Wistrich is also named, and Wikilinked". Of course Wistrich is named and Wikilinked at that point, since it's the first time he has appeared in the text of the article. You don't see him constantly being referred to as "Robert Wistrich" after that initial introduction. Jayjg (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Do other editors agree with Isarig's observation that it constitutes well-poisoning to describe the journal "Foreign Policy" as right-of-centre? CJCurrie 23:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason why there's an external link to "Myth of New antisemitism" under See also as opposed to References or Further reading? — Malik Shabazz ( Talk | contribs) 00:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Jeff Halper from israeli committee against house demolitions, was interviewed by norwegian TV (actually on kind of a travel program). I just thought some of his comments may be interesting for the article, though somewhat similar views are probably covered elsewhere in the article. The interview can be viewed here: http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/142202 From 25:00 and onwards a minute or two. He claims NAS is a new cynical pr tool, and that "the NAS says: Every critizism of Israel is anti-semitism." and a few other things. Could this be a useful source? if so, please help yourself! pertn 13:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The position of critics needs to be in the article, however, this section is just a Finkelstein soapbox. What makes him more of an authority than say Chomsky or other critics? <<-armon->> 23:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Any other comments on the WP:UNDUE issue I'm bringing up here? <<-armon->> 23:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
This section should be expanded. Finkelstein is one of the best sources for this article, having produced one of the most highly regarded works of scholarship on the subject. It is also one of the most thoroughly vetted and peer-reviewed political science books in recent years, due to the extensive legal pressures Dershowitz brought to bear on California government officials and the University of California press in his efforts to have its publication suppressed. Bernard Lewis is an impressive old-school Arabist (and politically controversial in his own way), but his expertise on the subject of this article is not by any serious measure greater than Finkelstein's.
Incidentally, Finkelstein will not cease to be an "academic" after "the next year or so," when the consequences of Dershowitz's character assassination and Stalinist putsch have run their full course. The stature of an academic is decided not by their day job or teaching schedule but by their recognized contribution to the field, and Finkelstein's is major.
At any rate, CJ is certainly right that this section needs to be beefed up. Someone reading the article in its present form might reasonably conclude that the idea of "new antisemitism" is a highly respected scholarly theory, when in fact it is mostly a journalistic trope. And one that had its heyday in the context of the second intifada and the war on terror, but now seems to be quickly approaching its sell-by date.-- G-Dett 11:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
(i) Raab and Zipperstein were not merely referring to "criticism of Israel" in their articles. They were instead distinguishing "anti-Israelism" from "anti-Semitism".
(ii) The "response" sub-header was added several months ago, and then deleted by SlimVirgin without an explanation. I've chosen to return it, and I expect that it will not be removed without an explanation.
(iii) The Independent Jewish Voices material is entirely relevant to the subject matter.
(iv) The link to Progressive Jewish Thought and the New anti-Semitism is also relevant.
Please don't revert these changes. If you disagree with the positioning of the Berlet material, let's discuss it here. CJCurrie 23:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
By way of an explanation for my change: Wikipedia articles must not only be written from a NPOV standpoint, but should also avoid the appearance of partisan attacks on public figures. Having pictures of Tariq Ali and Noam Chomsky under the heading "The Left and anti-Zionism", in a discussion about perceived new trends in anti-Semitism, could very easily lead inattentive readers to draw an unflattering conclusion (and to miss the point that these authors were responding to general criticisms).
Several editors have removed this sub-header without any explanation. I trust that anyone who wishes to remove it now will first engage with my concerns. CJCurrie 04:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I've also returned the material on Independent Jewish Voices, which is at least as significant as the material on the Euston Manifesto. CJCurrie 04:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Armon has removed the following paragraph (which I've long regarded as problematic and possibly superfluous). Do other editors believe that it should be retained:
inkelstein identifies several proponents of the concept of new antisemitism who appear to contradict themselves or each other on the issue of whether to identify Jews with Israel. Phyllis Chesler argues, on the one hand, that "anyone who does not distinguish between Jews and the Jewish state is an anti-Semite," but on the other that "Israel is our heart and soul ... we are family." [1] Gabriel Schoenfeld, the editor of Commentary magazine, writes that "Iranian anti-Semitic propagandists make a point of erasing all distinctions among Israel, Zionism and the Jews," [2] while Hillel Halkin argues that "Israel is the state of the Jews ... To defame Israel is to defame the Jews," [3] and Italian journalist Fiamma Nirenstein that "Jews everywhere should consider their being identified with Israel a virtue and honor." [4] It would seem to be anti-Semitic, Finkelstein concludes, "both to identify and not to identify Israel with Jews." [5]
CJCurrie 02:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm reading through the references that supposedly support the claim that "the far right made overtures to anti-war activists on the left to join forces against government policies in areas where they shared concerns,[18] mainly civil liberties, opposition to U.S. military intervention overseas, and opposition to U.S. support for Israel." It simply isn't there. There is NO documentation that I'm seeing that the right made any overture to join forces. What the Public Eye does seem to be saying is that anyone taking a position that differs from their own editorial view is de facto in league somehow with The Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. However, this is an article about the concept "The New Antisemitism." The Public Eye material is NOT history that's any more than peripherally (and with no small amount of editorial bias) related to this article. saying some fringe anti-Semite sat on a panel in a little anti-war meeting somewhere 17 years ago hardly seems lile encyclopedic documentation that "the far right made overtures to anti-war activists on the left to join forces..." on anything. As to the other examples, they are mixing speculation with fact, namely, the magazines speculation that anti-war rhetoric from tjhe right is directed at progressives--this is far different than any actual evidence of recruitment of th left by the right. Boodlesthecat 17:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)