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I have decided to remove this paragraph from the article:
In The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-Three Centuries of Antisemitism, Father Edward H. Flannery writes that, because most of the spectacular displays of antisemitism have come from the right — for example, Czarist pogroms, the Dreyfus Affair, and Adolf Hitler — it has blinded onlookers to what he calls an "uninterrupted strain of antisemitism on the Left," [1] quoting Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin who write: "The further Left one goes, the greater the antisemitism." [2] Flannery writes that it came as no surprise to historians of the left that, as William D. Rubinstein wrote in 1978: "Today, the main enemies of the Jews and Israel are almost exclusively on the left, most obviously the Communist states, the radical Third World anti-Zionist nations and their sympathizers in the West." [3] Flannery argues that "all the progenitors of socialist theory, with the exception of St Simon, were bitter antisemites," [1] arguing that Marx and Engels took much of what Flannery calls their antisemitism from Proudhon, Bauer, Fourier, Toussenel, and Fichte. Flannery writes that in 1891, the Second International Socialist Congress refused to condemn antisemitism without also condemning philosemitism. He cites historian Zosa Szajkowski, who writes that he could not find a "single word on behalf of Jews" in the entirety of French socialist literature from 1820 to 1920. The link between antisemitism and the ideology of the left is "not accidental," Flannery argues, because Judaism stresses nationality, peoplehood, or religious commitment; extreme leftist ideologies and traditional Judaism are "almost by definition incompatible." [4]
There are several reasons why this paragraph does not meet the standards of encyclopedic inclusion. I've explained my reasons in detail, and have provided sub-headers for the benefit of readers.
I would request that anyone who wishes to respond please do so after the end of this post.
The parts of Flannery's book referenced in this paragraph relate to a supposed "uninterrupted strain of antisemitism on the Left". Leaving aside the accuracy or inaccuracy of this charge, Flannery's evidence is not relevant to the concept of a "new antisemitism".
The problems of defining "new antisemitism" have been raised many times in discussions concerning this article, such that it may be impossible to find a definition that satisfies everyone. The term is currently defined on the article page as referring to the concept of a recent convergence of antisemitic thought and action involving three distinct ideologies: the far right, the left, and radical Islam. Previous versions of the article suggested that it was primarily a concept applied to the left, and specifically to the New Left. Some authors have used the term primarily in reference to radical Islam, while others have used it in a different sense, synonymous with "contemporary antisemitism".
Notwithstanding their differences, however, these definitions are linked by a common theme: they all refer to perceived developments in contemporary history. The excerpted portions of Flannery's text do not.
"NAS" is not defined as "antisemitism of the left", nor is it defined in terms of a linear progression of historical events dating back to the 19th century (which would be an absurdity for a "new" concept.) The fact that Proudhon and Fourier were antisemites is relevant to studies of Proudhon and Fourier, but not to the concept of a "new antisemitism". Similarly, the 1891 resolution of the Second International may or may not be relevant to a history of 19th century antisemitism, but it is clearly irrelevant to this page.
There are two editions of Edward Flannery's "The Anguish of the Jews". The first was published in 1965 by Macmillan Press. The second was issued in 1985 by Stimulus Books, a division of the Paulist Press (which mostly publishes Catholic devotional material). Copyright in the latter is owned by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Providence. There are significant differences between these books, and some sections (including the text referenced above) appear only in the second.
The original edition was released by a respected firm, and is recognized as being a work of scholarly merit. The second version was issued by a religious press, and there is some reason to believe that it may not have been adequately vetted (see below).
The circumstances of the Second Edition's publication can't help but draw into question its reliability as a source. (Are we really to be surprised that a book issed by the Catholic Church at the height of the Cold War would include sections attacking socialism?)
Flannery's comments on the relationship between antisemitism and socialism underwent a significant transformation between 1965 and 1985.
Consider the following statement from the 1965 edition:
Now, consider this revised statement from 1985:
It would be interesting to speculate on the reasons for this change, and particularly on whether or not it had anything to do with increased criticism of Israel from the Left after 1967. One way or the other, it seems inappropriate for us to reference Flannery's 1985 comments on antisemitism and socialism without drawing his 1965 comments into the picture in some way.
Most of the cited text is taken from two paragraphs on p. 274 of Flannery's 1985 edition:
There are a number of problems here.
There is one (1) footnote for the second paragraph:
It's a shame that Flannery didn't take the time to check the original source. If he had, he might have discovered this statement: "In quoting only the antisemitic pronouncements of the French socialists, before Edouard Drumont, the writer may be suspected of having ignored the pro-Jewish sentiments. In order to ally any such suspicion, the writer wishes therefore to say explicitly that his efforts to find sympathetic references to Jews in the French socialist literature, from Saint-Simon to the date of Drumont's first appearance, have been futile" (p. 60) Drumont's first appearance was in 1886.
Flannery might have also discovered the following statement, had he looked up the original essay: "It was not until antisemitism had joined hands with the "Boulangist" reaction (1889) that some socialist groups have become aware of the danger and started to fight against antisemitism" (p. 59; tense error in original). He certainly wouldn't have made his lunatic suggestion that Szajkowski found not "a single word on behalf of the Jews" in French socialist literature before *1920*, nor would he have suggested the "all the progenitors of socialist theory, with the exception of St. Simon, were bitter antisemites".
(I should add that Szajkowski's essay is an erudite scholarly piece, and deserves a better legacy than being used to prop up Father Flannery's efforts to malign the Left as antisemitic. An interesting fact I learned from the essay is that Fourier apparently concealed his antisemitism behind facetious support for a plan to move Europe's Jews en masse to Palestine.)
During the Dreyfus affair socialist leaders refused to counter the rightist attack on the Jewish army officer.
This statement is profoundly misleading. It's true that the "integral" faction of French socialism didn't participate in the campaign to exonerate Dreyfus (see Szajkowski, p. 59), but someone of Flannery's experience must surely have known that *most* French socialist leaders were active Dreyfusards. For him to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest, and for *us* to repeat this suggestion is profoundly unencyclopedic.
On the subject of lunatic suggestions, may I assume that no one reviewing this page is willing to defend Flannery's unreferenced suggestion that "Protocols" was derived from socialist sources?
In light of these errors, I do not believe that the 1985 edition of Flannery's book should be considered a reliable source for the history of "new antisemitism".
Our summary describes Prager and Telushkin as having written, "The further Left one goes, the greater the antisemitism." This comment is presented in isolation, and without further clarification as to their intentions. The effect may be to have readers believe Prager and Telushkin were referring to a "left to right" spectrum. To judge from Flannery's remarks, however, it appears more likely that they were referring to a "left to *centre*" spectrum.
Unfortunately, I was not able to obtain a copy of Prager and Telushkin's book before writing my comments. I suspect, however, that the current edit may be a distortion of their true intentions. I am not suggesting that this was deliberate.
Flannery's statement that "Extreme leftist ideologies and traditional Judaism are almost by definition incompatible" is not relevant to this article. Opposition to "traditional Judaism" is not, in and of itself, generally recognized as sufficient proof of antisemitism, let alone of "new antisemitism". (Are secular Jews who reject their religious backgrounds automatically considered antisemites? Of course not. For that matter, are Reform Jews who reject Kashrut considered antisemites? Of course not.)
It may be possible to incorporate Flannery's statements on the Left and particularism into the article, but I doubt there's any compelling need to do this in light of his credibility issues on other fronts.
For all of these reasons, it is clear to me that the Flannery paragraph is not encyclopedic, and needs to be removed from the article. It may be possible to restore Rubinstein's quote at some point in the future, but only if we reference the original source.
I've put a fair bit of time into researching these matters. I trust that any editor who wishes to restore the Flannery paragraph will review my comments, and address my arguments.
Please add your comments after this line. CJCurrie 06:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
May I please reiterate my request that any editor who wishes to restore the Flannery paragraph please review my comments, and address my arguments. CJCurrie 01:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm truly baffled as to how to interpret this: [2]. CJCurrie 09:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Jay, you've chosen to revert, on the rhetorical grounds that Flannery trumps CJ. Can I ask why you've left this sentence in: "He cites historian Zosa Szajkowski, who writes that he could not find a 'single word on behalf of Jews' in the entirety of French socialist literature from 1820 to 1920," which we know now to be false? Let us bracket for the moment the question of whether Flannery belongs at all. You think he does, so you restore him. But why not at least correct the sentence? Or at the very least, quote Flannery at greater length, so the falsehood is in his words and not ours? I'm not suggesting that this would suffice; I'm just trying to understand your negotiating posture. Is the point to show maximum contempt for CJ, as your edit summaries and posts here would suggest? Or do you not trust his legwork and believe him to be lying? Or is there a categorical principle involved here for you, that Wikipedia editors are to treat as infallible any assertions made by an RS? That even a modest editorial decision to put dubious claims in quotation marks, for example, rather than in free-indirect, so as to put a buffer between the voice of Wikipedia and manifestly false statements, would constitute OR? If there is some other principle involved, could you explain it please – in reasoned, detailed sentences, and not another crypto-sarcastic diktat?-- G-Dett 02:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I notice that neither one of you has directly addressed my arguments concerning the unsuitability of Flannery's arguments to this article. That's unfortunate, but not entirely surprising. What I find a bit more troubling is that neither of you has made any efforts to even *correct* the paragraph, based on what I've written. In its current form, the article presents Flannery's flawed scholarship as though it were accurate and credible. This is clearly unacceptable.
Seriously, does either of you honestly believe that a neutral editor (Mel Etitis, for instance, or Jmabel) would favour retention of the Flannery paragraph in light of the arguments I've presented? I doubt it.
The current Flannery paragraph is remarkably unencyclopedic, and has absolutely no business being here. I'm going to remove it again, and I'm going to request that you not restore it. If you want to return it in a revised form, please discuss it on the talk page first. CJCurrie 22:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
(And no, I didn't promise to leave the paragraph in place for a full day. I said I'd leave it in place *up to* a full day, on condition that SlimVirgin take advantage of the opportunity to read my comments.) CJCurrie 22:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
It's an almost insignificant point but Flannery was not writing about the "new antisemitism". He wrote long before the rightists who inform this article had invented the term. Including the passage about him is a new low in what is already a terrible piece of POV pushing masquerading as an article. It's entirely OR to suggest that his analysis has anything whatsoever to do with the "concept" that is under "discussion" in this article. I just don't see how we can justify having a section on the "history" of something that exists mostly in the minds of contributors here and a few of the more frothy pro-Israeli commentators, when it isn't simply an epithet thrown around by those who think Israel should have carte blanche for whatever reason. Grace Note 03:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I had been hoping that a greater number of uninvolved and neutral editors would have provided their views on this matter by now. I'm a bit concerned that this "controversy" could soon degenerate into the usual stale bickering between SlimVirgin's supporters and SlimVirgin's opponents; a few outside voices would be useful to ensuring that this unwelcome prospect doesn't come to fruition. I thank John Kenney for weighing in on this matter, and I hope others will follow in his footsteps.
For the time being, it will probably occasion little surprise among readers that I'm not convinced by the counter-arguments of Slim and Jay. Their comments about "Original Research" are especially puzzling: the NOR policy is designed to prevent editors from *adding* unverifiable and novel research, not to prevent editors from removing obviously flawed research. I'm also uncertain as to how a source that misinterprets Szajkowski by 34 years and claims "Protocols" as socialist-derived can honestly or accurately be described as reliable. To give credit where it's due, I appreciate that Moshe hasn't resorted to any transparent policy distortions in his remarks. (Even though I disagree with his conclusions, I appreciate that Moshe is approaching this discussion in a reasonable manner.) CJCurrie 06:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
As no-one has provided a convincing reason why the paragraph should be retained, I will remove it again presently. I am fully aware of the significance of my actions, and I believe that any neutral editor reviewing this situation would conclude that the paragraph should not have been returned in the first place. I can only wonder how much longer Slim and Jay will insist on defending an obviously unsuitable source. CJCurrie 06:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Question to Jay: Is there any basis for quoting the second less influential book rather than the first more influential book which says the opposite? Mackan79
What's the logic of re-inserting Flannery's inaccurate statement about Zosa Szajkowski?
It's fairly obvious this situation is degenerating into a full-blown edit war. I'm going to refrain from removing the paragraph again for the time being, in the hope that more uninvolved editors will weigh in shortly. I maintain that the paragraph has absolutely no business being in the article, and I'm prepared to take the matter as far as formal mediation if need be.
For the moment, I'm going to put a fact-disputed notice on the section. The current edit includes the following line: "He cites historian Zosa Szajkowski, who writes that he could not find a "single word on behalf of Jews" in the entirety of French socialist literature from 1820 to 1920." Szajkowski does not write this. CJCurrie 16:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This is the essence of Wikipedia's Original Research policy: "Articles may not contain any unpublished material, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position."
There is nothing in the policy that prevents me from challenging the reliability of a source on the talk page, nor is there anything in the policy that prevents me from removing obviously flawed information.
I hope that uninvolved parties reading this page will understand the defensive cry of "No original research" for what it is: an excuse, and a deflection. CJCurrie 19:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
One of the guiding principles of Wikipedia's editorial policy is that verifiability, rather than truth, is the standard for any piece of information to be included on an article page. That is, editors who wish to include *accurate* information on an article page must be able to demonstrate that the information has been published by a credible source.
This policy is meant to prevent editors from disseminating unverifiable personal knowledge (eg. "Celebrity X ran over my dog!"), and from promoting novel and untested theories (eg. "Were we too quick to dismiss phrenology?").
To judge from recent discussions, however, this principle may be open to abuse and misinterpretation. Slim, Jay et al almost seem to have inverted the principle, to suggest that demonstrably *inaccurate* information may be deemed encyclopedic if it appears in a reliable source (what?). They also seem to be suggesting that efforts to demonstrate the inaccuracy of such information are contrary to Wikipedia policy. This, of course, is nonsense.
I had hoped that neutral editors would have weighed in the Flannery controversy by now. Since that hasn't happened, I will remove the paragraph again. I make no apologies for doing this, as I emphatically do not require anyone's permission to remove demonstrably false information from the article.
To anyone who wishes to return the paragraph, I offer the following challenge: Why should we include false, misleading and irrelevant material from a book that was for all intents and purposes self-published? ("But the author wrote a classic study twenty years earlier!" is not a suitable response.) CJCurrie 01:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
It has become obvious to me that the various disputes relating to this page cannot be resolved by further dialogue among the participants. I believe that a comprehensive mediation is the only way forward. Do others agree? CJCurrie 05:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I've been run off my feet. I'll be having a closer look at the article and the debate this weekend. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid that things have stalled; Mackan79 has done a sterling job characterising one side of the debate, but it's been nearly a week and there's nothing for the other side. Could someone provide a similar account of the CJCurrie, G-Dett, GraceNote, Pertn, Catchpole, Itsmejudith, and Mackan79 side please? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 11:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I must admit that, having waded through the Talk page and the History of the article, I've got an idea as to the groupings of editors, and some notion as to some of the roots of disagreements, but (as so often happens) once battle lines are drawn they tend to become obscured by a host of unrelated or tangentially related disagreements. It would really help if one editor from each side of the divide could state here as fully and sympathetically as possible what the other side is arguing for. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 16:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Naturally I object to this kind of false distinction ("New antisemitism as a concept" vs. "Real antisemitism in the 21st century"). Opponents of the concept of "New antisemitism" inevitably try to divorce it from what they view as "Real antisemitism", reserving any blatant acts of antisemitism for an article about "the real stuff", and not about the "fake political concept intended only to deflect criticism from Israel". However, not only does this division of material assume the conclusion, but it also ignores the fact that those who insist that there is a "New antisemitism" provide example after example of activities which they think constitute it. How would it be possible to properly present their view without actually listing the specific actions that are alleged to make up its parts? Jayjg (talk) 14:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Do those involved accept that the characterisations of their positions and arguments are accurate and fair? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 18:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I see three major issues:
I'll refer to CJCurrie et al as CGM if that's ok, based on volume of commens, while noting that we may all differ on specific points.
Regarding the Flannery discussion, the SJL position is flexible. SJL rejects the idea that Flannery should be removed altogether, because they see it as reliably sourced and relevant. It is 1.) Relevant, because it addresses the history of antisemitism on the Left, as a background for the current phenomenon, and to explain to what extent NAS is new. It is 2.) Reliably sourced because it comes from an eminent historian of antisemitism. Moreover, it represents his most recent commentary on the subject, even if previous statements diverge. Additionally, CJCurrie's specific criticisms are primarily original research, as they have not previously been published, and therefore should not be considered relevant.
Nevertheless, SJL remains open to amending the specific treatment of the Flannery material to accommodate new sources.
Regarding the Responses section, the arguments have not been as clearly fleshed out, but fall into two broad categories: 1.) Whether specific sources are accurately characterized, and 2.) Whether the section's scope or title should be changed away from "Responses." Regarding 1.), SJL generally argues that the characterizations are accurate, noting the most relevant material to the concept of NAS. Regarding 2.), SJL argues that the section describes responses by governments and universities to the emergence of NAS, and thus is appropriately titled. [5] Moreover, SJL argues that there clearly have been such responses to – whatever we want to call it – the concept or phenomenon of NAS. [6] Thus, a section on these responses is entirely appropriate to the article on NAS.
Still, SJL have stated their openness to changing the title to something like “Actions by Governments and Groups.” [7]
Regarding the scope issue and the IJV material, the arguments again have not entirely been fleshed out. Essentially, SJL argues that CGM are trying to insert critical material which is not relevant to the concept of NAS except through their own original synthesis. Regarding IJV, it is argued that the group has not addressed NAS, but merely commented on a perceived lack of openness to criticism of Israel, primarily within the Jewish community. Specifically, the group has not addressed the confluence of antisemitism among the Left, far-Right and Islamism, the central thesis of NAS. It is not for us to decide that their statements are a criticism of NAS. Moreover, the only basis on which their comments could be made relevant in this way would be to assume the straw-man that NAS accuses all Israel-critics of being antisemitic. We should not make this assumption.
Regarding the lead and general scope, SJL argue that NAS is the concept of a new confluence of anti-Semitism among the Left, far-right and Islamism. As such, they argue that the lead is accurate, and reflects the proper scope for the article. While certain writers do focus on the issue of anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel, this is only one aspect, and is secondary. [8] The primary theory, as discussed by academic writers, regards the new alliance between previously unaligned or even hostile groups. As such, this should be the standard of relevance for the article, and is accurately and appropriately reflected in the lead. Mackan79 19:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
To look at the same three issues outlined above:
It is argued:
It is argued:
It is argued:
-- Leifern 18:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I can only speak for myself - Slim, Jayjg, and I have never sat down and compared notes, and I don't even know who these fellow editors are in real life.
The definition of New antisemitism is provided in the article itself, but if I were to paraphrase it: the central thesis behind those who advocate its existence is that it is antisemitism in effect and often in intent within the pretext of hostility to Israel. None of the proponents of NAS claim that mere criticism of Israel constitutes NAS; nor that it has a home on the political spectrum. Quite the contrary: they observe that whatever differences may exist on other issues, those who speak and practice NAS find common cause in demonizing Israel for no other apparent reason than that it is a Jewish state. In other words, while they observe that the confluence is there, it doesn't define the phenomenon.
I've always had problems with the term "concept." Really, we're talking about a phenomenon here that some say exists, and others don't.
I think the article at the moment suffers from the kind of bloating that is typical in contentious, unstable articles - where all sides want to include as many citations as possible. I much this prefer to revert warring, and I would warn against efforts to stop the tendency at the moment.
As with all other contentious issues, it's important to draw careful distinctions. I've corresponded privately with IJV (so I'll concede that my correspondence isn't an admissible source), but they've made it clear that they are against antisemitism on principle and agnostic on the phenomenon of NAS. What they object to is the notion that only viewpoints that fall within a certain range are acceptable in the Jewish community. Their contention is debatable in itself, but it doesn't support the argument that assertions of NAS are only intended to squash a constructive debate.
I think the issues need to be parsed: 1) Does NAS exist? Those who believe it does have evidence in favor of it, and there is lots of it. 2) Is the charge of NAS used as a means to stifle constructive debate about Israel's policies? Again, those who argue this should present evidence.
It seems absurd to me to claim that since some people possibly throw around the charge of antisemitism too readily, it can't possibly exist. But that's an editorial comment. -- Leifern 13:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
(i) Do those involved accept that the characterisations of their positions and arguments are accurate and fair? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 18:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
(ii) I do not, however, agree with Leifern's comments on the larger issue of defining "new antisemitism".
(iii) Leifern writes: I think the issues need to be parsed: 1) Does NAS exist? Those who believe it does have evidence in favor of it, and there is lots of it. 2) Is the charge of NAS used as a means to stifle constructive debate about Israel's policies? Again, those who argue this should present evidence.
Leifern gives a good summary of the concerns about the "Responses" section. As regards the IJV, the point is not that we think it's related to NAS but that the sources do.-- G-Dett 19:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Leifern and CJCurrie get the main points above, so just a few thoughts:
May I request an update on the status of our mediation process? I think it may be time to move to the next stage, notwithstanding that certain editors have chosen not to participate in the preliminary discussions. CJCurrie 01:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the status of Mel's mediation for this article?-- G-Dett 22:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
From the Carlos Latuff - Ariel Sharon (Israeli PM) series.]] i'm interested in adding to the size of the defamatory caricatures (perhaps create a subsection for it) and introduce this one when the article is open for editing:
Jaakobou
10:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to fail this nomination as this article is being rocked by edit warring (I'm really surprised to see such an active discussion); it looks nowhere the stability required in WP:WIAGA (criteria 5). However, I don't like to pass/fail articles, so I'll let someone else judge. It may die down by the time that someone gets around to look over it. Hbdragon88 05:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
... because this is the third time I've asked it. I've looked at the David Aaronovitch article [10] you offered as a source for the term "new antisemitism" being used purely as a pejorative political term, but I can't see where he says that. Can you give us the quote, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
What are we arguing about, again? Whether "new antisemitism" is a "pejorative political term"? Henry Kissinger said, "University politics are so bitter precisely because the stakes are so small." Is there room for compromise here? Can we look to Wikipedia policy and find a resolution? By golly, we can. If you add something to an article and someone challenges it, you have to provide reliable sourcing. Not something you made up in school one day. If it's "pejorative," then you need to prove that some notable opinion-maker described it as "pejorative," or something similar. Dino 12:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This talk page is only for discussing edits to the article. For everything else, please use the user talk pages, or if necessary dispute resolution. Tom Harrison Talk 20:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
So given that Category:Pejorative political terms is moot, should we put this article in Category:Political terms? — Ashley Y 21:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by "political term," Ashley? Is "racism" a political term, for example? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I suppose that would depend on who's using the term. Intent and state of mind ... Dino 23:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
So some scholars are using a political term with a specific meaning, and other simply mean "recent antisemitism", then? Is that correct? Are the scholars talking about two different things, albeit related? — Ashley Y 23:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
So do you think that this article should cover specifically this "something more virulent", or should it widen to any recent antisemitism (which may not have the cunning differences and the camouflage and so on)? — Ashley Y 04:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
We can debate all we like whether "new antisemitism" is a political term. I concur with Ashley that the answer is obviously yes. The discursive context for virtually every invocation of "new antisemitism" is political debate about Israel/Palestine. Those who use the term or advocate for it all come from one "side" of the public debate about the I/P conflict; those who mistrust, critique, or dismiss the term all come from the other. Tell me your thoughts on "new antisemitism" and I'll tell you your politics on I/P. This is enough to settle the matter in my eyes.\
When you're editing this page, and being inundated by comments from a few of the "one-topic" editors that haunt it, it's always best to keep the template at the top of the page in mind. Jayjg (talk) 18:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
comment interrupted; resuming from "This is enough to settle the matter in my eyes"] But if others dispute this, then we can't rely on common sense to settle the question, so we turn to WP:ATT. For the purposes of this article, it's a political term simply because many of our reliable sources describe it as such. For some, like Brian Klug, the phenomenon itself is a political one, for which "New Antisemitism" is a misnomer. For others like Finkelstein, the existence of the named thing is debatable, but the use of the term "New Antisemitism" in itself is a political phenomenon.
Slim asked if "racism" should similarly be listed in the category of political terms. The answer is no. Of course there can be and are plenty of politically-motivated accusations of racism, but the term itself has almost universal legitimacy, codified by extensive use over a long period of time, in a huge variety of discourses, and – crucially – with no particular overriding political context.
On the other hand, more specific terms such as "institutional racism," "environmental racism," "reverse racism," etc. could certainly be called political terms. They are indeed much more closely analogous to "new antisemitism," because each to some extent has a political view embedded within it; and in each of these cases, those who are opposed to that political view tend to dispute the validity of the term itself.
The fallacy to avoid here is thinking that a term isn't political simply because we share the political view embedded within it. I have deep reservations about the semantic legitimacy of "new antisemitism" as it's currently used, mild reservations about "reverse discrimination," none whatsover about "institutional racism." The reservations of others will distribute differently. But these are all political terms. Pretending that our own politics transcend politics is just, well, politics.-- G-Dett 23:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The one substantive point you've made to me in this exchange is your claim that for something to be listed as a political term it must be "solely" a political term. That's obviously false, Jay. Even a cursory look at the list ("Bottom feeder," "Ukrainian holocaust," "Lustration," "Lobbying," "Stalking Horse," "Heartland," "Ideology," "Talking Point") will tell you that.-- G-Dett 19:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Did I say that? Don't you ever get tired to begging the question? Jayjg (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't you get bored? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It's rather strange of you to try to compare an editor who does little else but abuse editors on a tiny set of Talk: pages to one who has created 4 featured articles, numerous policies, has tens of thousands of good edits on thousands of articles, etc. And it doesn't really have to do with experience on Wikipedia. For example, one could have been editing since (to pick a random date) November 2003, and still apparently be unaware of basic policy like WP:ATT and WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, so is it self-evident and uncontroversial that "new antisemitism" is a political term? — Ashley Y 21:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I would also say yes. What do other people think? — Ashley Y 21:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Going by the evidence, what is "self-evident and uncontroversial" is that there does in fact exist a form of antisemitism which uses Anti-Zionism as a fig leaf. I don't see where anybody seriously disputes that. Klug certainly doesn't, even if he disputes the terminology and would "draw the line" much more narrowly, and neither does Finkelstein, even if he believes it's "self-inflicted". I think categorizing it as a merely some sort of political term is therefore a way of undermining it in much the same way as creationists attempt to portray evolution as "just a theory". In any case, it still needs RS attribution. <<-armon->> 01:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I've restored Slim's revert of my modifications to the second paragraph. Slim, let's talk. "Old antisemitism" was "largely," but not entirely associated with the political right for the past 200-odd years; but its roots do indeed go far, far back into the mists of time, thousands of years in fact, before there were such concepts as a political "right" or "left." Is there any part of this statement that you find inaccurate? If so, please point it out. Thanks. Dino 21:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It would seem it also belongs here.-- G-Dett 22:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it a sociological term, then? We could put potentially put it in Category:Sociological terms, but looking at the two categories, the "political terms" one would seem to be a better fit. I think racism that manifests non-politically is still a political topic. But you disagree? — Ashley Y 05:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Leifern, are you offended that "Islamophobia" is included there?-- G-Dett 23:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm a little baffled by your post, GHCool. "New antisemitism" can't be compared to "Islamophobia," but it can be compared to Darwinism? I don't think this is a "reasonable-people-can-disagree" kind of thing; I think what you just wrote doesn't make sense. NAS and Islamophobia are controversial coinages for just about exactly the same reasons. Those who oppose the phrase "Islamophobia" (say, Oliver Kamm) do so because they think it's a way of silencing criticism of Islamism, fundamentalism, etc. The parallel is very strong indeed. But Darwinism? Holocaust denial? Global warming? These are scientific and historical (not for the most part political) issues about which scholarship is all but unanimous. If you're saying "New Antisemitism" enjoys a consensus of legitimacy comparable to any of these theories, that's just demonstrably false. And if you're saying proponents of these theories describe them as political phenomena the way proponents of NAS do, that's also false.-- G-Dett 01:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
WP:ATT, WP:CAT. The claim that is it a "political neologism" must be attributed to reliable sources, and it must be self-evident that it belongs in that category. Neither condition is satisfied. Jayjg (talk) 17:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Both are in fact satisfied. If GHcool wants to rewrite the category definition itself, in order to prevent NAS from taking its natural place there, that's a different matter. If you're determined to keep it out, Jay, I'd follow his lead.-- G-Dett 18:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You can gather these from virtually anywhere. Like I said, they're in plain view. Allan Brownfield describes the term as a "form of political blackmail." Cotler describes the phenomenon as "political antisemitism," which Taguieff in turn calls a "new political-intellectual conformism." Bernard Lewis writes, "This is where the third phase of anti-Semitism arises, which for want of a better term we might call political-cum-ideological Judeophobia." Zipperstein thinks it's better described as "anti-Israelism," which he says is informed by "a much distorted, simplistic, but this-worldly political analysis devoid of anti-Jewish bias." Peter Beaumont of the Guardian says of those who use the term that "what they are talking about is the criticism in the media and political classes of Europe of the policies of Sharon." Conrad Black's wife, for her part, traces the phenomenon to "London's political salon scene."
Shall I go on?
Can someone – Jay, Liefern, anyone – explain to me the strong objection to linking this article to any category of terms that includes the word "political" in it? It's hard for me to understand this resistance, given how consistently the RS's describe NAS as a political phenomenon (sometimes they link it to the failure of Oslo, sometimes to ideological by-products of globalization and anti-colonialism, sometimes to political opposition to American foreign policy, etc.). Is it that you feel strongly that even though this issue takes such consistently political form, it still somehow "transcends" politics? Are you worried that identifying the subject as political makes it somehow debatable, when you think it shouldn't be?-- G-Dett 01:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
GHCool and Armon, welcome to the discussion. Your posts above (Armon's concern that NAS not be seen as "merely a political term" and GHCool's likening of NAS to scientific theories such as biological evolution and global warming) suggest that you would answer yes to my last two questions – is that right?-- G-Dett 01:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I would say at this point that we have consensus on "political term," but we need further discussion on "neologism." Any objections? Dino 18:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Allan Brownfield describes the term as a "form of political blackmail." Cotler describes the phenomenon as "political antisemitism," which Taguieff in turn calls a "new political-intellectual conformism." Bernard Lewis writes, "This is where the third phase of anti-Semitism arises, which for want of a better term we might call political-cum-ideological Judeophobia." Zipperstein thinks it's better described as "anti-Israelism," which he says is informed by "a much distorted, simplistic, but this-worldly political analysis devoid of anti-Jewish bias." Peter Beaumont of the Guardian says of those who use the term that "what they are talking about is the criticism in the media and political classes of Europe of the policies of Sharon." Conrad Black's wife, for her part, traces the phenomenon to "London's political salon scene"...shall I go on?
There's no OR, just unequivocal direct quotes from our main reliable sources.-- G-Dett 17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor keeps wanting to delete "far right" as one of the sources of new antisemitism. I don't think this is accurate - the article includes David Duke, and NAS has also been put at the feet of Pat Buchanan et al. I don't want to get into a revert war, so let me get a sense of the senate - any objections to include "right" or "far right" in the scope of NAS? -- Leifern 21:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the lead, in my view, is that it artificially whitewashes what the theory primarily is: a theory alleging a new relationship between antisemitism and bashing Israel. The first sentence has 7 sources, but if you look at them, they don't actually support what the first sentence says. One of the sources says that the New Antisemitism comes from these directions, but none /define/ NAS by that trait. That, indeed, appears to be our unique spin. Meanwhile, nearly every writer, including the aforementioned 7, discusses NAS as primarily relating to anti-Zionism and excessive criticism of Israel.
This was one issue in the mediation at the top of the page, though that mediation unfortunately seems to have stalled. I'm not sure if we'll be hearing back about that, but I think that's one thing regarding the first paragraph that really needs to be improved. Mackan79 23:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, if that is true, how about this (changed text in italics):
— Ashley Y 00:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how this can be reduced to "theory." There is a resurgence in antisemitic attacks; most if not all of these attacks are tied in with anti-Israeli rhetoric. It's unknowable whether those who perpetrate these attacks are influenced by the anti-Israeli rhetoric to go develop hatred toward Jews; or whether they find a pretext for antisemitism in going against Israel. The controversy over the term is whether the attacks represent a new type of antisemitism, distinct from all the other forms. But there's nothing about it that ties it to a particular political ideology. It's just notable that the kind of virulent anti-Israelism that crosses the line into antisemitism comes from all extreme ideologies. Which really isn't that surprising, but that's my view. -- Leifern 03:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
For reference, here are the old version of the lead I could find. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]
I think it is true that the NAS connects with anti-Zionism. The difference between old and new is stated above. The old anti-semitism is based on prejudice against race, ethnicity and religious identity. The NAS is based on opposition to national identity. I think it is easier to conceptualize Zionism as national identity (nationalism is probably the correct word but may be construed incorrectly). This is why the NAS is basically leftist. Most leftist ideologies oppose national identities. Anti-nationalism spills over to anti-zionism which spills over to anti-semitism as the identities of all three of these get blurred in the case of Israel. Lumping in nationalists as being part of the New Antisemitism eliminates the distinction between the Old anti-Semitism. So in summary, anti-nationalism (and by extension anti-zionism) is the basis. Expanding it to all forms of anti-semitism detracts from it's distinction as "new". The "new" part is distinctly leftist. -- Tbeatty 06:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
How would this be for an opening paragraph? I think it manages to encapsulate all of the key components:
The concept of new antisemitism posits that the international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols, the allegedly increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse, and strong criticism of Israel coming from the political left, far-right, and Islamism, together constitute various expressions of a single phenomenon.
-- G-Dett 18:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
New antisemitism is the concept of a new form of 21st century antisemitism coming simultaneously from the left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel. The term has entered common usage to refer to what some writers describe as a wave of antisemitism that escalated, particularly in Western Europe, after the Second Intifada in 2000, the failure of the Oslo accords, and the September 11, 2001 attacks. [2][3]
The concept generally posits that an international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols, an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, and strong criticism of Israel, together constitute various expressions of a single phenomenon, and an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish homeland may be coupled with antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism. [2][3] Critics of the concept argue that it serves to equate legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and that it is used to silence debate. [6][7]
It's nice to see that all the people who deny the existence of New antisemitism are able to come to such a quick agreement on how to re-define it. In any event, any intro which attempts to claim that New antisemitism revolves around "strong criticism of Israel" can hardly be taken seriously. If any of you want to truly try to suggest improvements to the intro, I think you'd need to first commmit yourselves to WP:NPOV; even better would be committing yourselves to Wikipedia:Writing for the enemy. Jayjg (talk) 00:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Mackan79, the term you are looking for is demonization, and quite a number of the people discussing New antisemitism have used it. I'm not sure why people would be reluctant to fairly represent the views of those who are proponents of the concept. Jayjg (talk) 17:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I also disagree with "demonization," which I think understates the position (as expressed by many). This isn't to create a straw man; I agree that "strong criticism" overstates the general position, but we shouldn't understate it either. If you look at the Antisemitism section on New Antisemitism, first, there seems to have developed concensus for this statement (which also appears on Anti-Zionism with two sources):
Is this not a fair assessment of the position? Brian Klug, then, says it thusly:
No, it's not, he argues. I find the Dershowitz quote, then, here ("When Does Anti-Israel Rhetoric Become Anti-Semitism?", by Richard Juran).
Larry Summers in the same Juran article: "What is the equivalent of anti-Semitism is the singling out of the Jewish nation for divestment, boycott, U. N. condemnation or other sanctions, in face of, and despite its far better record on human rights than any other nation in the Middle East and most other nations in the world."
Thomas Friedman: "But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."
So isn't there a more appropriate word, then, than "demonization"? To me, "disproportionate opposition" is pretty good, because it gets at the point that it's not just criticism, but opposition (boycotts, divestment, etc.). Nevertheless, some, such as Dershowitz, seem to go even further. Is there anything else that would work for you? Mackan79 18:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
"Demonization" is the word proponents use most often. We can't start making up words, or telling them what they ought to be saying. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
We're talking about the lead, for G-d's sake. It's not "making up words" to use neutral language in the introduction to a controversial topic. We can quote people referring to "demonization," but we're not going to just assimilate and naturalize that vocabulary in a supposedly neutral lead. I can't quite believe I'm having to explain this to editors with years of experience and tens of thousands of edits. We don't speak of "Bantustan conditions in the occupied territories and second-class citizenship in Israel proper" in the lead of "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" just because that's the language of the theory's advocates; we speak of "Israeli's treatment of Arabs in the West Bank and Israel," and rightly so.
I suggest "arguably disproportionate criticism." The very thing at stake in the debate about NAS is what is disproportionate and what is not, what is justifiably strong criticism and what is demonization. A lead that forecloses that debate instead of presenting it is, by definition, not an NPOV lead; it's that simple.-- G-Dett 00:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
See, for instance, one of the sources cited by Jayjg, the Canadian Jewish Congress:
It's crystal-clear that "demonization" is being used as a synonym of "singling out Israel." According to this concept, Cuba is also being demonized as the only dictatorship blockaded by the US, and Chávez is being demonized as the only dictator compared to Hitler by a US Secretary of Defense.
To paraphrase Brian Klug, when demonization is everywhere, it's nowhere. The word has no place in an article lead, and can be safely replaced with "criticizing Israel without simultaneously criticizing other countries alleged to violate human rights," which is what NAS proponents like the CJC mean by it. -- Abenyosef 02:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"At the 47-nation [Human Rights] Council, inaugurated in June to replace the discredited Commission on Human Rights, there have been only 10 resolutions addressing specific countries: eight harsh condemnations of Israel, and two soft, non-condemnatory resolutions on Sudan." [27] This is far, far beyond any sort of "judging dictatorships on different grounds that democracies". It turns out that 80% of the serious Human Rights violations in the world are occurring in tiny little Israel, 20% of the less serious kind in Sudan, and none anywhere else. Who'd a thunk? Jayjg (talk) 17:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Does everyone agree the basic template of Mackan79's lead is acceptable?
If editors feel very strongly that "demonization" is an appropriate word and should be included, then we'd need to take care to avoid the NPOV problems that come with it. In particular, we'd need to phrase things to make very clear what is settled fact for all parties to the NAS debate (a worldwide resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols) and what is seriously disputed (the line between legitimate criticism of Israel and "demonization," for example). So rephrasing Mackan's lead accordingly (with other minor modifications for the sake of concision, none of which I'm wedded to:
New antisemitism is the concept of a new form of 21st-century antisemitism emanating simultaneously from the left, the far right, and radical Islam, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism. The term has entered common usage to refer to what some writers describe as a wave of antisemitism that escalated, particularly in Western Europe, after the Second Intifada in 2000, the failure of the Oslo accords, and the September 11, 2001 attacks. [2][3]
The concept generally posits that the international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols since 2000 has been coupled with increased acceptance of antisemitism in public discourse, as well as political criticism of Israel so strong as to constitute demonization; and that together these constitute various expressions of a single phenomenon, and an evolution in the appearance but not the underlying content of antisemitic beliefs.
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish homeland may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism. [2][3] Critics of the concept argue that it serves to equate legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and that it is used to silence debate.
The other problem I see now is that mention of criticism is exceedingly brief. I don't think we should add any sentences, but the opening sentence should indicate that this is a controversial concept.-- G-Dett 14:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The concept generally posits that an international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols, an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, and disproportionate condemnation of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, together constitute a single phenomenon, and an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.
Sharansky talks of 3 Ds, demonization, double-standards, and deligitimization. They are 3 separate concepts:
The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.
The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.
The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.
Consistently comparing Israelis to Nazis etc. is not "political criticism of Israel"; in fact, proponents of the concept of New antisemitism point out that it is well beyond the realm of "political criticism". Plastering campuses for weeks the campus with posters showing soup cans with pictures of dead babies on them and labels reading, "canned Palestinian children meat, slaughtered according to Jewish rites under American license" [29] is not "political criticism of Israel", it's a blood libel. Again, opponents of the concept of New antisemitism may come to all sorts of agreements on this talk page about what the proponents are saying, but WP:NPOV does not allow their straw man presentations to be used in the article. Jayjg (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
These are all good points. "The three D's" is an argument relevant to the larger debate about NAS; it does not constitute, however, an editorial guideline for Wikipedians writing an article about NAS. If we take it as such, we violate WP:NPOV.-- G-Dett 18:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Ashley, I don't see any of those names brought in this article as examples of New antisemitism; are you sure you're not creating another straw man argument? Also, I won't go through all the names, but I could point out that Judt has deligitimized Israel's right to exist, proposing it be dissolved into some other entity. Carter has both demonized and deligitimized Israel, by using the "apartheid" epithet to describe it. Jayjg (talk) 19:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"Obsessive condemnation" is getting closer. By the way, none of the sources is "my own", and even if you think a group has misused the word "milk" to mean "meat", you really can't "report so, but noting the the usage is unique to those groups" unless some reliable source has already made that argument. You keep forgetting that your arguments don't belong in Wikipedia articles, only those of reliable sources. Jayjg (talk) 20:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
If someone suggested the possibility that Gaza could join Egypt and the WB Jordan, and suggested that this would somehow be desirable, or at least the best choice among bad alternatives, and admitted moreover that such a notion was at this point purely utopian, and stressed that it should never be implemented against the will of anyone involved... then I wouldn't call the suggester an "Islamophobe" or an anti-Palestinian bigot, and I wouldn't describe his argument as a "delegitimization" of Palestinian rights, and I would question the judgment and/or honesty of anyone who did so.-- G-Dett 20:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying to get back on topic. Jay, do you have any suggestions for the lead? Anything to add or alter in Mackan's template?-- G-Dett 21:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I also ask, then, whether there is agreement regarding the parts other than the specific choice of criticism/demonization/condemnation? If we can agree about the rest, I'd like to implement it, which might also help focus the debate. I've pasted my generally preferred version below, which is to say the version I think best accomodates the various viewpoints according to WP:NPOV.
Regarding the word choice for Par 2, I note G-Dett's point, but simply couldn't get it to sound right with the disproportionate condemantion language and without the statement about "not in form." In that regard, maybe if anybody has small changes, they can feel free to make them in the above, with comment below? Hopefully then we can move forward. Mackan79 23:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I've fixed the wording to represent what proponents actually say. Jayjg (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it looks like we're getting there. Regarding the first "vilification", though, I still hope we can find something better, which I really think we can if we all want to preserve the NPOV tone of the article. The continuing problem, then: 1.) Vilification is a loaded word, and 2.) Vilification simply doesn't speak to the issue of double-standards, which (as I think GHcool correctly notes) is (for at least some) a different (and equally important) issue. [30] My main problem with the current version, thus: if we keep that wording in the second paragraph, then I think there simply has to be another sentence about what is actually controversial, since "vilification" really isn't. This sentence would be something like "More controversially, the term is used in regard to criticism or condemnation of Israel which applies different standards to Israel's conduct than to other nations." I guess this raises the question: Would people agree to adding this sentence, or something similar? The sentence would be well sourced, both on people making the argument and on the controversy surrounding it.
Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with adding that sentence, because I think that's the huge controversy here, and I don't see why we shouldn't recognize it. If so, I would have no problem with "vilification" preceding it. If we don't, though, then I think we need to find something better than "vilification," which manages to encompass all three D's, not just the least controversial one. Jay, or others, can I ask whether you'd be more agreeable to either of these approaches? Mackan79 14:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Just as a thought I don't currently have time to develop: one other issue with what we have is whether the second and third paragraphs shouldn't go together. I've considered ways to do it, but perhaps others have a way. I also feel, generally, like it's strange we don't mention the fact that NAS is controversial (even though much of the article relates to the controversy). That said, we could combine them something like: "Proponents generally argue (surge, public discourse, vilification). Some proponents further argue (anti-Americanism, third worldism, etc.). Controversy exists over (fill in blank)." Perhaps then the final paragraph would briefly note the opposition, or perhaps it could all be put together. Otherwise, I'm simply not sure what makes the second paragraph the theory as opposed to the third paragraph what proponents say. It looks like basically 6 or 7 of the same types of things. Is this worth trying to fix? I just feel like we should get something good now while everybody is looking at it. I may come up with a proposal later. Mackan79 19:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe the "Critics of the concept" sentence should be changed to read as follows:
This proposed change (re: trivialization) is consistent with objections raised by Brownfield, Klug, Lerner, Butler and others. The argument is an integral component of the "new antisemitism" debate, and I trust that it will not be identified as "original research". Discussion is welcome. CJCurrie 22:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my absence; I've just implemented CJCurrie's suggestion, as well as a brief mention of the "double standards" idea per Jay's suggestion above in my proposed version. Does the current suggestion work for everybody? Mackan79 21:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I changed the first paragraph, and am actually wondering now if this doesn't solve the issue without getting into some of the messier issues about demonization or double standards. Indeed, one concern was our continuing attempt to make so many categorical statements about the concept, some of which may not be true in all circumstances. Any thoughts on the paragraph as is? If this has concensus, I think I'd be fine. Mackan79 13:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Being unsure why Slim removed it, I'll try again. If there's an issue, please do explain; we've tried very hard to incorporate all sides here. Mackan79 03:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I feel this article is too long and too repetitive. Several different people are quoted or paraphrased at length, making the same points over and over.
Hypnopomp 22:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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I have decided to remove this paragraph from the article:
In The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-Three Centuries of Antisemitism, Father Edward H. Flannery writes that, because most of the spectacular displays of antisemitism have come from the right — for example, Czarist pogroms, the Dreyfus Affair, and Adolf Hitler — it has blinded onlookers to what he calls an "uninterrupted strain of antisemitism on the Left," [1] quoting Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin who write: "The further Left one goes, the greater the antisemitism." [2] Flannery writes that it came as no surprise to historians of the left that, as William D. Rubinstein wrote in 1978: "Today, the main enemies of the Jews and Israel are almost exclusively on the left, most obviously the Communist states, the radical Third World anti-Zionist nations and their sympathizers in the West." [3] Flannery argues that "all the progenitors of socialist theory, with the exception of St Simon, were bitter antisemites," [1] arguing that Marx and Engels took much of what Flannery calls their antisemitism from Proudhon, Bauer, Fourier, Toussenel, and Fichte. Flannery writes that in 1891, the Second International Socialist Congress refused to condemn antisemitism without also condemning philosemitism. He cites historian Zosa Szajkowski, who writes that he could not find a "single word on behalf of Jews" in the entirety of French socialist literature from 1820 to 1920. The link between antisemitism and the ideology of the left is "not accidental," Flannery argues, because Judaism stresses nationality, peoplehood, or religious commitment; extreme leftist ideologies and traditional Judaism are "almost by definition incompatible." [4]
There are several reasons why this paragraph does not meet the standards of encyclopedic inclusion. I've explained my reasons in detail, and have provided sub-headers for the benefit of readers.
I would request that anyone who wishes to respond please do so after the end of this post.
The parts of Flannery's book referenced in this paragraph relate to a supposed "uninterrupted strain of antisemitism on the Left". Leaving aside the accuracy or inaccuracy of this charge, Flannery's evidence is not relevant to the concept of a "new antisemitism".
The problems of defining "new antisemitism" have been raised many times in discussions concerning this article, such that it may be impossible to find a definition that satisfies everyone. The term is currently defined on the article page as referring to the concept of a recent convergence of antisemitic thought and action involving three distinct ideologies: the far right, the left, and radical Islam. Previous versions of the article suggested that it was primarily a concept applied to the left, and specifically to the New Left. Some authors have used the term primarily in reference to radical Islam, while others have used it in a different sense, synonymous with "contemporary antisemitism".
Notwithstanding their differences, however, these definitions are linked by a common theme: they all refer to perceived developments in contemporary history. The excerpted portions of Flannery's text do not.
"NAS" is not defined as "antisemitism of the left", nor is it defined in terms of a linear progression of historical events dating back to the 19th century (which would be an absurdity for a "new" concept.) The fact that Proudhon and Fourier were antisemites is relevant to studies of Proudhon and Fourier, but not to the concept of a "new antisemitism". Similarly, the 1891 resolution of the Second International may or may not be relevant to a history of 19th century antisemitism, but it is clearly irrelevant to this page.
There are two editions of Edward Flannery's "The Anguish of the Jews". The first was published in 1965 by Macmillan Press. The second was issued in 1985 by Stimulus Books, a division of the Paulist Press (which mostly publishes Catholic devotional material). Copyright in the latter is owned by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Providence. There are significant differences between these books, and some sections (including the text referenced above) appear only in the second.
The original edition was released by a respected firm, and is recognized as being a work of scholarly merit. The second version was issued by a religious press, and there is some reason to believe that it may not have been adequately vetted (see below).
The circumstances of the Second Edition's publication can't help but draw into question its reliability as a source. (Are we really to be surprised that a book issed by the Catholic Church at the height of the Cold War would include sections attacking socialism?)
Flannery's comments on the relationship between antisemitism and socialism underwent a significant transformation between 1965 and 1985.
Consider the following statement from the 1965 edition:
Now, consider this revised statement from 1985:
It would be interesting to speculate on the reasons for this change, and particularly on whether or not it had anything to do with increased criticism of Israel from the Left after 1967. One way or the other, it seems inappropriate for us to reference Flannery's 1985 comments on antisemitism and socialism without drawing his 1965 comments into the picture in some way.
Most of the cited text is taken from two paragraphs on p. 274 of Flannery's 1985 edition:
There are a number of problems here.
There is one (1) footnote for the second paragraph:
It's a shame that Flannery didn't take the time to check the original source. If he had, he might have discovered this statement: "In quoting only the antisemitic pronouncements of the French socialists, before Edouard Drumont, the writer may be suspected of having ignored the pro-Jewish sentiments. In order to ally any such suspicion, the writer wishes therefore to say explicitly that his efforts to find sympathetic references to Jews in the French socialist literature, from Saint-Simon to the date of Drumont's first appearance, have been futile" (p. 60) Drumont's first appearance was in 1886.
Flannery might have also discovered the following statement, had he looked up the original essay: "It was not until antisemitism had joined hands with the "Boulangist" reaction (1889) that some socialist groups have become aware of the danger and started to fight against antisemitism" (p. 59; tense error in original). He certainly wouldn't have made his lunatic suggestion that Szajkowski found not "a single word on behalf of the Jews" in French socialist literature before *1920*, nor would he have suggested the "all the progenitors of socialist theory, with the exception of St. Simon, were bitter antisemites".
(I should add that Szajkowski's essay is an erudite scholarly piece, and deserves a better legacy than being used to prop up Father Flannery's efforts to malign the Left as antisemitic. An interesting fact I learned from the essay is that Fourier apparently concealed his antisemitism behind facetious support for a plan to move Europe's Jews en masse to Palestine.)
During the Dreyfus affair socialist leaders refused to counter the rightist attack on the Jewish army officer.
This statement is profoundly misleading. It's true that the "integral" faction of French socialism didn't participate in the campaign to exonerate Dreyfus (see Szajkowski, p. 59), but someone of Flannery's experience must surely have known that *most* French socialist leaders were active Dreyfusards. For him to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest, and for *us* to repeat this suggestion is profoundly unencyclopedic.
On the subject of lunatic suggestions, may I assume that no one reviewing this page is willing to defend Flannery's unreferenced suggestion that "Protocols" was derived from socialist sources?
In light of these errors, I do not believe that the 1985 edition of Flannery's book should be considered a reliable source for the history of "new antisemitism".
Our summary describes Prager and Telushkin as having written, "The further Left one goes, the greater the antisemitism." This comment is presented in isolation, and without further clarification as to their intentions. The effect may be to have readers believe Prager and Telushkin were referring to a "left to right" spectrum. To judge from Flannery's remarks, however, it appears more likely that they were referring to a "left to *centre*" spectrum.
Unfortunately, I was not able to obtain a copy of Prager and Telushkin's book before writing my comments. I suspect, however, that the current edit may be a distortion of their true intentions. I am not suggesting that this was deliberate.
Flannery's statement that "Extreme leftist ideologies and traditional Judaism are almost by definition incompatible" is not relevant to this article. Opposition to "traditional Judaism" is not, in and of itself, generally recognized as sufficient proof of antisemitism, let alone of "new antisemitism". (Are secular Jews who reject their religious backgrounds automatically considered antisemites? Of course not. For that matter, are Reform Jews who reject Kashrut considered antisemites? Of course not.)
It may be possible to incorporate Flannery's statements on the Left and particularism into the article, but I doubt there's any compelling need to do this in light of his credibility issues on other fronts.
For all of these reasons, it is clear to me that the Flannery paragraph is not encyclopedic, and needs to be removed from the article. It may be possible to restore Rubinstein's quote at some point in the future, but only if we reference the original source.
I've put a fair bit of time into researching these matters. I trust that any editor who wishes to restore the Flannery paragraph will review my comments, and address my arguments.
Please add your comments after this line. CJCurrie 06:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
May I please reiterate my request that any editor who wishes to restore the Flannery paragraph please review my comments, and address my arguments. CJCurrie 01:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm truly baffled as to how to interpret this: [2]. CJCurrie 09:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Jay, you've chosen to revert, on the rhetorical grounds that Flannery trumps CJ. Can I ask why you've left this sentence in: "He cites historian Zosa Szajkowski, who writes that he could not find a 'single word on behalf of Jews' in the entirety of French socialist literature from 1820 to 1920," which we know now to be false? Let us bracket for the moment the question of whether Flannery belongs at all. You think he does, so you restore him. But why not at least correct the sentence? Or at the very least, quote Flannery at greater length, so the falsehood is in his words and not ours? I'm not suggesting that this would suffice; I'm just trying to understand your negotiating posture. Is the point to show maximum contempt for CJ, as your edit summaries and posts here would suggest? Or do you not trust his legwork and believe him to be lying? Or is there a categorical principle involved here for you, that Wikipedia editors are to treat as infallible any assertions made by an RS? That even a modest editorial decision to put dubious claims in quotation marks, for example, rather than in free-indirect, so as to put a buffer between the voice of Wikipedia and manifestly false statements, would constitute OR? If there is some other principle involved, could you explain it please – in reasoned, detailed sentences, and not another crypto-sarcastic diktat?-- G-Dett 02:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I notice that neither one of you has directly addressed my arguments concerning the unsuitability of Flannery's arguments to this article. That's unfortunate, but not entirely surprising. What I find a bit more troubling is that neither of you has made any efforts to even *correct* the paragraph, based on what I've written. In its current form, the article presents Flannery's flawed scholarship as though it were accurate and credible. This is clearly unacceptable.
Seriously, does either of you honestly believe that a neutral editor (Mel Etitis, for instance, or Jmabel) would favour retention of the Flannery paragraph in light of the arguments I've presented? I doubt it.
The current Flannery paragraph is remarkably unencyclopedic, and has absolutely no business being here. I'm going to remove it again, and I'm going to request that you not restore it. If you want to return it in a revised form, please discuss it on the talk page first. CJCurrie 22:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
(And no, I didn't promise to leave the paragraph in place for a full day. I said I'd leave it in place *up to* a full day, on condition that SlimVirgin take advantage of the opportunity to read my comments.) CJCurrie 22:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
It's an almost insignificant point but Flannery was not writing about the "new antisemitism". He wrote long before the rightists who inform this article had invented the term. Including the passage about him is a new low in what is already a terrible piece of POV pushing masquerading as an article. It's entirely OR to suggest that his analysis has anything whatsoever to do with the "concept" that is under "discussion" in this article. I just don't see how we can justify having a section on the "history" of something that exists mostly in the minds of contributors here and a few of the more frothy pro-Israeli commentators, when it isn't simply an epithet thrown around by those who think Israel should have carte blanche for whatever reason. Grace Note 03:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I had been hoping that a greater number of uninvolved and neutral editors would have provided their views on this matter by now. I'm a bit concerned that this "controversy" could soon degenerate into the usual stale bickering between SlimVirgin's supporters and SlimVirgin's opponents; a few outside voices would be useful to ensuring that this unwelcome prospect doesn't come to fruition. I thank John Kenney for weighing in on this matter, and I hope others will follow in his footsteps.
For the time being, it will probably occasion little surprise among readers that I'm not convinced by the counter-arguments of Slim and Jay. Their comments about "Original Research" are especially puzzling: the NOR policy is designed to prevent editors from *adding* unverifiable and novel research, not to prevent editors from removing obviously flawed research. I'm also uncertain as to how a source that misinterprets Szajkowski by 34 years and claims "Protocols" as socialist-derived can honestly or accurately be described as reliable. To give credit where it's due, I appreciate that Moshe hasn't resorted to any transparent policy distortions in his remarks. (Even though I disagree with his conclusions, I appreciate that Moshe is approaching this discussion in a reasonable manner.) CJCurrie 06:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
As no-one has provided a convincing reason why the paragraph should be retained, I will remove it again presently. I am fully aware of the significance of my actions, and I believe that any neutral editor reviewing this situation would conclude that the paragraph should not have been returned in the first place. I can only wonder how much longer Slim and Jay will insist on defending an obviously unsuitable source. CJCurrie 06:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Question to Jay: Is there any basis for quoting the second less influential book rather than the first more influential book which says the opposite? Mackan79
What's the logic of re-inserting Flannery's inaccurate statement about Zosa Szajkowski?
It's fairly obvious this situation is degenerating into a full-blown edit war. I'm going to refrain from removing the paragraph again for the time being, in the hope that more uninvolved editors will weigh in shortly. I maintain that the paragraph has absolutely no business being in the article, and I'm prepared to take the matter as far as formal mediation if need be.
For the moment, I'm going to put a fact-disputed notice on the section. The current edit includes the following line: "He cites historian Zosa Szajkowski, who writes that he could not find a "single word on behalf of Jews" in the entirety of French socialist literature from 1820 to 1920." Szajkowski does not write this. CJCurrie 16:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This is the essence of Wikipedia's Original Research policy: "Articles may not contain any unpublished material, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position."
There is nothing in the policy that prevents me from challenging the reliability of a source on the talk page, nor is there anything in the policy that prevents me from removing obviously flawed information.
I hope that uninvolved parties reading this page will understand the defensive cry of "No original research" for what it is: an excuse, and a deflection. CJCurrie 19:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
One of the guiding principles of Wikipedia's editorial policy is that verifiability, rather than truth, is the standard for any piece of information to be included on an article page. That is, editors who wish to include *accurate* information on an article page must be able to demonstrate that the information has been published by a credible source.
This policy is meant to prevent editors from disseminating unverifiable personal knowledge (eg. "Celebrity X ran over my dog!"), and from promoting novel and untested theories (eg. "Were we too quick to dismiss phrenology?").
To judge from recent discussions, however, this principle may be open to abuse and misinterpretation. Slim, Jay et al almost seem to have inverted the principle, to suggest that demonstrably *inaccurate* information may be deemed encyclopedic if it appears in a reliable source (what?). They also seem to be suggesting that efforts to demonstrate the inaccuracy of such information are contrary to Wikipedia policy. This, of course, is nonsense.
I had hoped that neutral editors would have weighed in the Flannery controversy by now. Since that hasn't happened, I will remove the paragraph again. I make no apologies for doing this, as I emphatically do not require anyone's permission to remove demonstrably false information from the article.
To anyone who wishes to return the paragraph, I offer the following challenge: Why should we include false, misleading and irrelevant material from a book that was for all intents and purposes self-published? ("But the author wrote a classic study twenty years earlier!" is not a suitable response.) CJCurrie 01:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
It has become obvious to me that the various disputes relating to this page cannot be resolved by further dialogue among the participants. I believe that a comprehensive mediation is the only way forward. Do others agree? CJCurrie 05:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I've been run off my feet. I'll be having a closer look at the article and the debate this weekend. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid that things have stalled; Mackan79 has done a sterling job characterising one side of the debate, but it's been nearly a week and there's nothing for the other side. Could someone provide a similar account of the CJCurrie, G-Dett, GraceNote, Pertn, Catchpole, Itsmejudith, and Mackan79 side please? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 11:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I must admit that, having waded through the Talk page and the History of the article, I've got an idea as to the groupings of editors, and some notion as to some of the roots of disagreements, but (as so often happens) once battle lines are drawn they tend to become obscured by a host of unrelated or tangentially related disagreements. It would really help if one editor from each side of the divide could state here as fully and sympathetically as possible what the other side is arguing for. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 16:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Naturally I object to this kind of false distinction ("New antisemitism as a concept" vs. "Real antisemitism in the 21st century"). Opponents of the concept of "New antisemitism" inevitably try to divorce it from what they view as "Real antisemitism", reserving any blatant acts of antisemitism for an article about "the real stuff", and not about the "fake political concept intended only to deflect criticism from Israel". However, not only does this division of material assume the conclusion, but it also ignores the fact that those who insist that there is a "New antisemitism" provide example after example of activities which they think constitute it. How would it be possible to properly present their view without actually listing the specific actions that are alleged to make up its parts? Jayjg (talk) 14:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Do those involved accept that the characterisations of their positions and arguments are accurate and fair? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 18:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I see three major issues:
I'll refer to CJCurrie et al as CGM if that's ok, based on volume of commens, while noting that we may all differ on specific points.
Regarding the Flannery discussion, the SJL position is flexible. SJL rejects the idea that Flannery should be removed altogether, because they see it as reliably sourced and relevant. It is 1.) Relevant, because it addresses the history of antisemitism on the Left, as a background for the current phenomenon, and to explain to what extent NAS is new. It is 2.) Reliably sourced because it comes from an eminent historian of antisemitism. Moreover, it represents his most recent commentary on the subject, even if previous statements diverge. Additionally, CJCurrie's specific criticisms are primarily original research, as they have not previously been published, and therefore should not be considered relevant.
Nevertheless, SJL remains open to amending the specific treatment of the Flannery material to accommodate new sources.
Regarding the Responses section, the arguments have not been as clearly fleshed out, but fall into two broad categories: 1.) Whether specific sources are accurately characterized, and 2.) Whether the section's scope or title should be changed away from "Responses." Regarding 1.), SJL generally argues that the characterizations are accurate, noting the most relevant material to the concept of NAS. Regarding 2.), SJL argues that the section describes responses by governments and universities to the emergence of NAS, and thus is appropriately titled. [5] Moreover, SJL argues that there clearly have been such responses to – whatever we want to call it – the concept or phenomenon of NAS. [6] Thus, a section on these responses is entirely appropriate to the article on NAS.
Still, SJL have stated their openness to changing the title to something like “Actions by Governments and Groups.” [7]
Regarding the scope issue and the IJV material, the arguments again have not entirely been fleshed out. Essentially, SJL argues that CGM are trying to insert critical material which is not relevant to the concept of NAS except through their own original synthesis. Regarding IJV, it is argued that the group has not addressed NAS, but merely commented on a perceived lack of openness to criticism of Israel, primarily within the Jewish community. Specifically, the group has not addressed the confluence of antisemitism among the Left, far-Right and Islamism, the central thesis of NAS. It is not for us to decide that their statements are a criticism of NAS. Moreover, the only basis on which their comments could be made relevant in this way would be to assume the straw-man that NAS accuses all Israel-critics of being antisemitic. We should not make this assumption.
Regarding the lead and general scope, SJL argue that NAS is the concept of a new confluence of anti-Semitism among the Left, far-right and Islamism. As such, they argue that the lead is accurate, and reflects the proper scope for the article. While certain writers do focus on the issue of anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel, this is only one aspect, and is secondary. [8] The primary theory, as discussed by academic writers, regards the new alliance between previously unaligned or even hostile groups. As such, this should be the standard of relevance for the article, and is accurately and appropriately reflected in the lead. Mackan79 19:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
To look at the same three issues outlined above:
It is argued:
It is argued:
It is argued:
-- Leifern 18:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I can only speak for myself - Slim, Jayjg, and I have never sat down and compared notes, and I don't even know who these fellow editors are in real life.
The definition of New antisemitism is provided in the article itself, but if I were to paraphrase it: the central thesis behind those who advocate its existence is that it is antisemitism in effect and often in intent within the pretext of hostility to Israel. None of the proponents of NAS claim that mere criticism of Israel constitutes NAS; nor that it has a home on the political spectrum. Quite the contrary: they observe that whatever differences may exist on other issues, those who speak and practice NAS find common cause in demonizing Israel for no other apparent reason than that it is a Jewish state. In other words, while they observe that the confluence is there, it doesn't define the phenomenon.
I've always had problems with the term "concept." Really, we're talking about a phenomenon here that some say exists, and others don't.
I think the article at the moment suffers from the kind of bloating that is typical in contentious, unstable articles - where all sides want to include as many citations as possible. I much this prefer to revert warring, and I would warn against efforts to stop the tendency at the moment.
As with all other contentious issues, it's important to draw careful distinctions. I've corresponded privately with IJV (so I'll concede that my correspondence isn't an admissible source), but they've made it clear that they are against antisemitism on principle and agnostic on the phenomenon of NAS. What they object to is the notion that only viewpoints that fall within a certain range are acceptable in the Jewish community. Their contention is debatable in itself, but it doesn't support the argument that assertions of NAS are only intended to squash a constructive debate.
I think the issues need to be parsed: 1) Does NAS exist? Those who believe it does have evidence in favor of it, and there is lots of it. 2) Is the charge of NAS used as a means to stifle constructive debate about Israel's policies? Again, those who argue this should present evidence.
It seems absurd to me to claim that since some people possibly throw around the charge of antisemitism too readily, it can't possibly exist. But that's an editorial comment. -- Leifern 13:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
(i) Do those involved accept that the characterisations of their positions and arguments are accurate and fair? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 18:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
(ii) I do not, however, agree with Leifern's comments on the larger issue of defining "new antisemitism".
(iii) Leifern writes: I think the issues need to be parsed: 1) Does NAS exist? Those who believe it does have evidence in favor of it, and there is lots of it. 2) Is the charge of NAS used as a means to stifle constructive debate about Israel's policies? Again, those who argue this should present evidence.
Leifern gives a good summary of the concerns about the "Responses" section. As regards the IJV, the point is not that we think it's related to NAS but that the sources do.-- G-Dett 19:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Leifern and CJCurrie get the main points above, so just a few thoughts:
May I request an update on the status of our mediation process? I think it may be time to move to the next stage, notwithstanding that certain editors have chosen not to participate in the preliminary discussions. CJCurrie 01:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
What is the status of Mel's mediation for this article?-- G-Dett 22:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
From the Carlos Latuff - Ariel Sharon (Israeli PM) series.]] i'm interested in adding to the size of the defamatory caricatures (perhaps create a subsection for it) and introduce this one when the article is open for editing:
Jaakobou
10:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to fail this nomination as this article is being rocked by edit warring (I'm really surprised to see such an active discussion); it looks nowhere the stability required in WP:WIAGA (criteria 5). However, I don't like to pass/fail articles, so I'll let someone else judge. It may die down by the time that someone gets around to look over it. Hbdragon88 05:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
... because this is the third time I've asked it. I've looked at the David Aaronovitch article [10] you offered as a source for the term "new antisemitism" being used purely as a pejorative political term, but I can't see where he says that. Can you give us the quote, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
What are we arguing about, again? Whether "new antisemitism" is a "pejorative political term"? Henry Kissinger said, "University politics are so bitter precisely because the stakes are so small." Is there room for compromise here? Can we look to Wikipedia policy and find a resolution? By golly, we can. If you add something to an article and someone challenges it, you have to provide reliable sourcing. Not something you made up in school one day. If it's "pejorative," then you need to prove that some notable opinion-maker described it as "pejorative," or something similar. Dino 12:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This talk page is only for discussing edits to the article. For everything else, please use the user talk pages, or if necessary dispute resolution. Tom Harrison Talk 20:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
So given that Category:Pejorative political terms is moot, should we put this article in Category:Political terms? — Ashley Y 21:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by "political term," Ashley? Is "racism" a political term, for example? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I suppose that would depend on who's using the term. Intent and state of mind ... Dino 23:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
So some scholars are using a political term with a specific meaning, and other simply mean "recent antisemitism", then? Is that correct? Are the scholars talking about two different things, albeit related? — Ashley Y 23:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
So do you think that this article should cover specifically this "something more virulent", or should it widen to any recent antisemitism (which may not have the cunning differences and the camouflage and so on)? — Ashley Y 04:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
We can debate all we like whether "new antisemitism" is a political term. I concur with Ashley that the answer is obviously yes. The discursive context for virtually every invocation of "new antisemitism" is political debate about Israel/Palestine. Those who use the term or advocate for it all come from one "side" of the public debate about the I/P conflict; those who mistrust, critique, or dismiss the term all come from the other. Tell me your thoughts on "new antisemitism" and I'll tell you your politics on I/P. This is enough to settle the matter in my eyes.\
When you're editing this page, and being inundated by comments from a few of the "one-topic" editors that haunt it, it's always best to keep the template at the top of the page in mind. Jayjg (talk) 18:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
comment interrupted; resuming from "This is enough to settle the matter in my eyes"] But if others dispute this, then we can't rely on common sense to settle the question, so we turn to WP:ATT. For the purposes of this article, it's a political term simply because many of our reliable sources describe it as such. For some, like Brian Klug, the phenomenon itself is a political one, for which "New Antisemitism" is a misnomer. For others like Finkelstein, the existence of the named thing is debatable, but the use of the term "New Antisemitism" in itself is a political phenomenon.
Slim asked if "racism" should similarly be listed in the category of political terms. The answer is no. Of course there can be and are plenty of politically-motivated accusations of racism, but the term itself has almost universal legitimacy, codified by extensive use over a long period of time, in a huge variety of discourses, and – crucially – with no particular overriding political context.
On the other hand, more specific terms such as "institutional racism," "environmental racism," "reverse racism," etc. could certainly be called political terms. They are indeed much more closely analogous to "new antisemitism," because each to some extent has a political view embedded within it; and in each of these cases, those who are opposed to that political view tend to dispute the validity of the term itself.
The fallacy to avoid here is thinking that a term isn't political simply because we share the political view embedded within it. I have deep reservations about the semantic legitimacy of "new antisemitism" as it's currently used, mild reservations about "reverse discrimination," none whatsover about "institutional racism." The reservations of others will distribute differently. But these are all political terms. Pretending that our own politics transcend politics is just, well, politics.-- G-Dett 23:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The one substantive point you've made to me in this exchange is your claim that for something to be listed as a political term it must be "solely" a political term. That's obviously false, Jay. Even a cursory look at the list ("Bottom feeder," "Ukrainian holocaust," "Lustration," "Lobbying," "Stalking Horse," "Heartland," "Ideology," "Talking Point") will tell you that.-- G-Dett 19:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Did I say that? Don't you ever get tired to begging the question? Jayjg (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't you get bored? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It's rather strange of you to try to compare an editor who does little else but abuse editors on a tiny set of Talk: pages to one who has created 4 featured articles, numerous policies, has tens of thousands of good edits on thousands of articles, etc. And it doesn't really have to do with experience on Wikipedia. For example, one could have been editing since (to pick a random date) November 2003, and still apparently be unaware of basic policy like WP:ATT and WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, so is it self-evident and uncontroversial that "new antisemitism" is a political term? — Ashley Y 21:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I would also say yes. What do other people think? — Ashley Y 21:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Going by the evidence, what is "self-evident and uncontroversial" is that there does in fact exist a form of antisemitism which uses Anti-Zionism as a fig leaf. I don't see where anybody seriously disputes that. Klug certainly doesn't, even if he disputes the terminology and would "draw the line" much more narrowly, and neither does Finkelstein, even if he believes it's "self-inflicted". I think categorizing it as a merely some sort of political term is therefore a way of undermining it in much the same way as creationists attempt to portray evolution as "just a theory". In any case, it still needs RS attribution. <<-armon->> 01:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I've restored Slim's revert of my modifications to the second paragraph. Slim, let's talk. "Old antisemitism" was "largely," but not entirely associated with the political right for the past 200-odd years; but its roots do indeed go far, far back into the mists of time, thousands of years in fact, before there were such concepts as a political "right" or "left." Is there any part of this statement that you find inaccurate? If so, please point it out. Thanks. Dino 21:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It would seem it also belongs here.-- G-Dett 22:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it a sociological term, then? We could put potentially put it in Category:Sociological terms, but looking at the two categories, the "political terms" one would seem to be a better fit. I think racism that manifests non-politically is still a political topic. But you disagree? — Ashley Y 05:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Leifern, are you offended that "Islamophobia" is included there?-- G-Dett 23:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm a little baffled by your post, GHCool. "New antisemitism" can't be compared to "Islamophobia," but it can be compared to Darwinism? I don't think this is a "reasonable-people-can-disagree" kind of thing; I think what you just wrote doesn't make sense. NAS and Islamophobia are controversial coinages for just about exactly the same reasons. Those who oppose the phrase "Islamophobia" (say, Oliver Kamm) do so because they think it's a way of silencing criticism of Islamism, fundamentalism, etc. The parallel is very strong indeed. But Darwinism? Holocaust denial? Global warming? These are scientific and historical (not for the most part political) issues about which scholarship is all but unanimous. If you're saying "New Antisemitism" enjoys a consensus of legitimacy comparable to any of these theories, that's just demonstrably false. And if you're saying proponents of these theories describe them as political phenomena the way proponents of NAS do, that's also false.-- G-Dett 01:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
WP:ATT, WP:CAT. The claim that is it a "political neologism" must be attributed to reliable sources, and it must be self-evident that it belongs in that category. Neither condition is satisfied. Jayjg (talk) 17:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Both are in fact satisfied. If GHcool wants to rewrite the category definition itself, in order to prevent NAS from taking its natural place there, that's a different matter. If you're determined to keep it out, Jay, I'd follow his lead.-- G-Dett 18:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You can gather these from virtually anywhere. Like I said, they're in plain view. Allan Brownfield describes the term as a "form of political blackmail." Cotler describes the phenomenon as "political antisemitism," which Taguieff in turn calls a "new political-intellectual conformism." Bernard Lewis writes, "This is where the third phase of anti-Semitism arises, which for want of a better term we might call political-cum-ideological Judeophobia." Zipperstein thinks it's better described as "anti-Israelism," which he says is informed by "a much distorted, simplistic, but this-worldly political analysis devoid of anti-Jewish bias." Peter Beaumont of the Guardian says of those who use the term that "what they are talking about is the criticism in the media and political classes of Europe of the policies of Sharon." Conrad Black's wife, for her part, traces the phenomenon to "London's political salon scene."
Shall I go on?
Can someone – Jay, Liefern, anyone – explain to me the strong objection to linking this article to any category of terms that includes the word "political" in it? It's hard for me to understand this resistance, given how consistently the RS's describe NAS as a political phenomenon (sometimes they link it to the failure of Oslo, sometimes to ideological by-products of globalization and anti-colonialism, sometimes to political opposition to American foreign policy, etc.). Is it that you feel strongly that even though this issue takes such consistently political form, it still somehow "transcends" politics? Are you worried that identifying the subject as political makes it somehow debatable, when you think it shouldn't be?-- G-Dett 01:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
GHCool and Armon, welcome to the discussion. Your posts above (Armon's concern that NAS not be seen as "merely a political term" and GHCool's likening of NAS to scientific theories such as biological evolution and global warming) suggest that you would answer yes to my last two questions – is that right?-- G-Dett 01:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I would say at this point that we have consensus on "political term," but we need further discussion on "neologism." Any objections? Dino 18:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Allan Brownfield describes the term as a "form of political blackmail." Cotler describes the phenomenon as "political antisemitism," which Taguieff in turn calls a "new political-intellectual conformism." Bernard Lewis writes, "This is where the third phase of anti-Semitism arises, which for want of a better term we might call political-cum-ideological Judeophobia." Zipperstein thinks it's better described as "anti-Israelism," which he says is informed by "a much distorted, simplistic, but this-worldly political analysis devoid of anti-Jewish bias." Peter Beaumont of the Guardian says of those who use the term that "what they are talking about is the criticism in the media and political classes of Europe of the policies of Sharon." Conrad Black's wife, for her part, traces the phenomenon to "London's political salon scene"...shall I go on?
There's no OR, just unequivocal direct quotes from our main reliable sources.-- G-Dett 17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor keeps wanting to delete "far right" as one of the sources of new antisemitism. I don't think this is accurate - the article includes David Duke, and NAS has also been put at the feet of Pat Buchanan et al. I don't want to get into a revert war, so let me get a sense of the senate - any objections to include "right" or "far right" in the scope of NAS? -- Leifern 21:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the lead, in my view, is that it artificially whitewashes what the theory primarily is: a theory alleging a new relationship between antisemitism and bashing Israel. The first sentence has 7 sources, but if you look at them, they don't actually support what the first sentence says. One of the sources says that the New Antisemitism comes from these directions, but none /define/ NAS by that trait. That, indeed, appears to be our unique spin. Meanwhile, nearly every writer, including the aforementioned 7, discusses NAS as primarily relating to anti-Zionism and excessive criticism of Israel.
This was one issue in the mediation at the top of the page, though that mediation unfortunately seems to have stalled. I'm not sure if we'll be hearing back about that, but I think that's one thing regarding the first paragraph that really needs to be improved. Mackan79 23:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, if that is true, how about this (changed text in italics):
— Ashley Y 00:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how this can be reduced to "theory." There is a resurgence in antisemitic attacks; most if not all of these attacks are tied in with anti-Israeli rhetoric. It's unknowable whether those who perpetrate these attacks are influenced by the anti-Israeli rhetoric to go develop hatred toward Jews; or whether they find a pretext for antisemitism in going against Israel. The controversy over the term is whether the attacks represent a new type of antisemitism, distinct from all the other forms. But there's nothing about it that ties it to a particular political ideology. It's just notable that the kind of virulent anti-Israelism that crosses the line into antisemitism comes from all extreme ideologies. Which really isn't that surprising, but that's my view. -- Leifern 03:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
For reference, here are the old version of the lead I could find. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]
I think it is true that the NAS connects with anti-Zionism. The difference between old and new is stated above. The old anti-semitism is based on prejudice against race, ethnicity and religious identity. The NAS is based on opposition to national identity. I think it is easier to conceptualize Zionism as national identity (nationalism is probably the correct word but may be construed incorrectly). This is why the NAS is basically leftist. Most leftist ideologies oppose national identities. Anti-nationalism spills over to anti-zionism which spills over to anti-semitism as the identities of all three of these get blurred in the case of Israel. Lumping in nationalists as being part of the New Antisemitism eliminates the distinction between the Old anti-Semitism. So in summary, anti-nationalism (and by extension anti-zionism) is the basis. Expanding it to all forms of anti-semitism detracts from it's distinction as "new". The "new" part is distinctly leftist. -- Tbeatty 06:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
How would this be for an opening paragraph? I think it manages to encapsulate all of the key components:
The concept of new antisemitism posits that the international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols, the allegedly increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse, and strong criticism of Israel coming from the political left, far-right, and Islamism, together constitute various expressions of a single phenomenon.
-- G-Dett 18:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
New antisemitism is the concept of a new form of 21st century antisemitism coming simultaneously from the left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel. The term has entered common usage to refer to what some writers describe as a wave of antisemitism that escalated, particularly in Western Europe, after the Second Intifada in 2000, the failure of the Oslo accords, and the September 11, 2001 attacks. [2][3]
The concept generally posits that an international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols, an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, and strong criticism of Israel, together constitute various expressions of a single phenomenon, and an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish homeland may be coupled with antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism. [2][3] Critics of the concept argue that it serves to equate legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and that it is used to silence debate. [6][7]
It's nice to see that all the people who deny the existence of New antisemitism are able to come to such a quick agreement on how to re-define it. In any event, any intro which attempts to claim that New antisemitism revolves around "strong criticism of Israel" can hardly be taken seriously. If any of you want to truly try to suggest improvements to the intro, I think you'd need to first commmit yourselves to WP:NPOV; even better would be committing yourselves to Wikipedia:Writing for the enemy. Jayjg (talk) 00:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Mackan79, the term you are looking for is demonization, and quite a number of the people discussing New antisemitism have used it. I'm not sure why people would be reluctant to fairly represent the views of those who are proponents of the concept. Jayjg (talk) 17:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I also disagree with "demonization," which I think understates the position (as expressed by many). This isn't to create a straw man; I agree that "strong criticism" overstates the general position, but we shouldn't understate it either. If you look at the Antisemitism section on New Antisemitism, first, there seems to have developed concensus for this statement (which also appears on Anti-Zionism with two sources):
Is this not a fair assessment of the position? Brian Klug, then, says it thusly:
No, it's not, he argues. I find the Dershowitz quote, then, here ("When Does Anti-Israel Rhetoric Become Anti-Semitism?", by Richard Juran).
Larry Summers in the same Juran article: "What is the equivalent of anti-Semitism is the singling out of the Jewish nation for divestment, boycott, U. N. condemnation or other sanctions, in face of, and despite its far better record on human rights than any other nation in the Middle East and most other nations in the world."
Thomas Friedman: "But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."
So isn't there a more appropriate word, then, than "demonization"? To me, "disproportionate opposition" is pretty good, because it gets at the point that it's not just criticism, but opposition (boycotts, divestment, etc.). Nevertheless, some, such as Dershowitz, seem to go even further. Is there anything else that would work for you? Mackan79 18:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
"Demonization" is the word proponents use most often. We can't start making up words, or telling them what they ought to be saying. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
We're talking about the lead, for G-d's sake. It's not "making up words" to use neutral language in the introduction to a controversial topic. We can quote people referring to "demonization," but we're not going to just assimilate and naturalize that vocabulary in a supposedly neutral lead. I can't quite believe I'm having to explain this to editors with years of experience and tens of thousands of edits. We don't speak of "Bantustan conditions in the occupied territories and second-class citizenship in Israel proper" in the lead of "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" just because that's the language of the theory's advocates; we speak of "Israeli's treatment of Arabs in the West Bank and Israel," and rightly so.
I suggest "arguably disproportionate criticism." The very thing at stake in the debate about NAS is what is disproportionate and what is not, what is justifiably strong criticism and what is demonization. A lead that forecloses that debate instead of presenting it is, by definition, not an NPOV lead; it's that simple.-- G-Dett 00:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
See, for instance, one of the sources cited by Jayjg, the Canadian Jewish Congress:
It's crystal-clear that "demonization" is being used as a synonym of "singling out Israel." According to this concept, Cuba is also being demonized as the only dictatorship blockaded by the US, and Chávez is being demonized as the only dictator compared to Hitler by a US Secretary of Defense.
To paraphrase Brian Klug, when demonization is everywhere, it's nowhere. The word has no place in an article lead, and can be safely replaced with "criticizing Israel without simultaneously criticizing other countries alleged to violate human rights," which is what NAS proponents like the CJC mean by it. -- Abenyosef 02:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"At the 47-nation [Human Rights] Council, inaugurated in June to replace the discredited Commission on Human Rights, there have been only 10 resolutions addressing specific countries: eight harsh condemnations of Israel, and two soft, non-condemnatory resolutions on Sudan." [27] This is far, far beyond any sort of "judging dictatorships on different grounds that democracies". It turns out that 80% of the serious Human Rights violations in the world are occurring in tiny little Israel, 20% of the less serious kind in Sudan, and none anywhere else. Who'd a thunk? Jayjg (talk) 17:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Does everyone agree the basic template of Mackan79's lead is acceptable?
If editors feel very strongly that "demonization" is an appropriate word and should be included, then we'd need to take care to avoid the NPOV problems that come with it. In particular, we'd need to phrase things to make very clear what is settled fact for all parties to the NAS debate (a worldwide resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols) and what is seriously disputed (the line between legitimate criticism of Israel and "demonization," for example). So rephrasing Mackan's lead accordingly (with other minor modifications for the sake of concision, none of which I'm wedded to:
New antisemitism is the concept of a new form of 21st-century antisemitism emanating simultaneously from the left, the far right, and radical Islam, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism. The term has entered common usage to refer to what some writers describe as a wave of antisemitism that escalated, particularly in Western Europe, after the Second Intifada in 2000, the failure of the Oslo accords, and the September 11, 2001 attacks. [2][3]
The concept generally posits that the international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols since 2000 has been coupled with increased acceptance of antisemitism in public discourse, as well as political criticism of Israel so strong as to constitute demonization; and that together these constitute various expressions of a single phenomenon, and an evolution in the appearance but not the underlying content of antisemitic beliefs.
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish homeland may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism. [2][3] Critics of the concept argue that it serves to equate legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and that it is used to silence debate.
The other problem I see now is that mention of criticism is exceedingly brief. I don't think we should add any sentences, but the opening sentence should indicate that this is a controversial concept.-- G-Dett 14:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The concept generally posits that an international resurgence of attacks on Jewish symbols, an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, and disproportionate condemnation of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, together constitute a single phenomenon, and an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.
Sharansky talks of 3 Ds, demonization, double-standards, and deligitimization. They are 3 separate concepts:
The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.
The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.
The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.
Consistently comparing Israelis to Nazis etc. is not "political criticism of Israel"; in fact, proponents of the concept of New antisemitism point out that it is well beyond the realm of "political criticism". Plastering campuses for weeks the campus with posters showing soup cans with pictures of dead babies on them and labels reading, "canned Palestinian children meat, slaughtered according to Jewish rites under American license" [29] is not "political criticism of Israel", it's a blood libel. Again, opponents of the concept of New antisemitism may come to all sorts of agreements on this talk page about what the proponents are saying, but WP:NPOV does not allow their straw man presentations to be used in the article. Jayjg (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
These are all good points. "The three D's" is an argument relevant to the larger debate about NAS; it does not constitute, however, an editorial guideline for Wikipedians writing an article about NAS. If we take it as such, we violate WP:NPOV.-- G-Dett 18:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Ashley, I don't see any of those names brought in this article as examples of New antisemitism; are you sure you're not creating another straw man argument? Also, I won't go through all the names, but I could point out that Judt has deligitimized Israel's right to exist, proposing it be dissolved into some other entity. Carter has both demonized and deligitimized Israel, by using the "apartheid" epithet to describe it. Jayjg (talk) 19:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"Obsessive condemnation" is getting closer. By the way, none of the sources is "my own", and even if you think a group has misused the word "milk" to mean "meat", you really can't "report so, but noting the the usage is unique to those groups" unless some reliable source has already made that argument. You keep forgetting that your arguments don't belong in Wikipedia articles, only those of reliable sources. Jayjg (talk) 20:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
If someone suggested the possibility that Gaza could join Egypt and the WB Jordan, and suggested that this would somehow be desirable, or at least the best choice among bad alternatives, and admitted moreover that such a notion was at this point purely utopian, and stressed that it should never be implemented against the will of anyone involved... then I wouldn't call the suggester an "Islamophobe" or an anti-Palestinian bigot, and I wouldn't describe his argument as a "delegitimization" of Palestinian rights, and I would question the judgment and/or honesty of anyone who did so.-- G-Dett 20:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying to get back on topic. Jay, do you have any suggestions for the lead? Anything to add or alter in Mackan's template?-- G-Dett 21:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I also ask, then, whether there is agreement regarding the parts other than the specific choice of criticism/demonization/condemnation? If we can agree about the rest, I'd like to implement it, which might also help focus the debate. I've pasted my generally preferred version below, which is to say the version I think best accomodates the various viewpoints according to WP:NPOV.
Regarding the word choice for Par 2, I note G-Dett's point, but simply couldn't get it to sound right with the disproportionate condemantion language and without the statement about "not in form." In that regard, maybe if anybody has small changes, they can feel free to make them in the above, with comment below? Hopefully then we can move forward. Mackan79 23:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I've fixed the wording to represent what proponents actually say. Jayjg (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it looks like we're getting there. Regarding the first "vilification", though, I still hope we can find something better, which I really think we can if we all want to preserve the NPOV tone of the article. The continuing problem, then: 1.) Vilification is a loaded word, and 2.) Vilification simply doesn't speak to the issue of double-standards, which (as I think GHcool correctly notes) is (for at least some) a different (and equally important) issue. [30] My main problem with the current version, thus: if we keep that wording in the second paragraph, then I think there simply has to be another sentence about what is actually controversial, since "vilification" really isn't. This sentence would be something like "More controversially, the term is used in regard to criticism or condemnation of Israel which applies different standards to Israel's conduct than to other nations." I guess this raises the question: Would people agree to adding this sentence, or something similar? The sentence would be well sourced, both on people making the argument and on the controversy surrounding it.
Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with adding that sentence, because I think that's the huge controversy here, and I don't see why we shouldn't recognize it. If so, I would have no problem with "vilification" preceding it. If we don't, though, then I think we need to find something better than "vilification," which manages to encompass all three D's, not just the least controversial one. Jay, or others, can I ask whether you'd be more agreeable to either of these approaches? Mackan79 14:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Just as a thought I don't currently have time to develop: one other issue with what we have is whether the second and third paragraphs shouldn't go together. I've considered ways to do it, but perhaps others have a way. I also feel, generally, like it's strange we don't mention the fact that NAS is controversial (even though much of the article relates to the controversy). That said, we could combine them something like: "Proponents generally argue (surge, public discourse, vilification). Some proponents further argue (anti-Americanism, third worldism, etc.). Controversy exists over (fill in blank)." Perhaps then the final paragraph would briefly note the opposition, or perhaps it could all be put together. Otherwise, I'm simply not sure what makes the second paragraph the theory as opposed to the third paragraph what proponents say. It looks like basically 6 or 7 of the same types of things. Is this worth trying to fix? I just feel like we should get something good now while everybody is looking at it. I may come up with a proposal later. Mackan79 19:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe the "Critics of the concept" sentence should be changed to read as follows:
This proposed change (re: trivialization) is consistent with objections raised by Brownfield, Klug, Lerner, Butler and others. The argument is an integral component of the "new antisemitism" debate, and I trust that it will not be identified as "original research". Discussion is welcome. CJCurrie 22:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my absence; I've just implemented CJCurrie's suggestion, as well as a brief mention of the "double standards" idea per Jay's suggestion above in my proposed version. Does the current suggestion work for everybody? Mackan79 21:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I changed the first paragraph, and am actually wondering now if this doesn't solve the issue without getting into some of the messier issues about demonization or double standards. Indeed, one concern was our continuing attempt to make so many categorical statements about the concept, some of which may not be true in all circumstances. Any thoughts on the paragraph as is? If this has concensus, I think I'd be fine. Mackan79 13:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Being unsure why Slim removed it, I'll try again. If there's an issue, please do explain; we've tried very hard to incorporate all sides here. Mackan79 03:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I feel this article is too long and too repetitive. Several different people are quoted or paraphrased at length, making the same points over and over.
Hypnopomp 22:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)