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While I wouldn't claim this article as a model of NPOV (there is a bit of a bias, in that once one is past the lead section, the exposition of claims of a "New anti-Semitism" runs so long as to place the opposite arguments awfully far down the article), but it seems to me that at this point it is a fairly good job for such an inherently controversial subject. I would hope that we are in a position to soon get the NPOV label off of the article. I would appreciate if those who feel it still belongs there could make it clear exactly what about the article they feel still merits the label. Bullet lists rather than essays, please. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:23, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
This needs clarification. There is no introduction to this subsection which explains who or what is to be falsely alleged and how that relates to anti-Semitism. Please include some criteria for inclusion so that readers can understand why the material which follows is relevant.
Thanks -- Uncle Bungle 13:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Jayjg for clarification. Is there proof then that Terje Roed-Larsen made the claim of atrocities in Jenin "with the intent of stirring up hatred"? -- Uncle Bungle 16:20, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You have stated that the section is about "false allegations made about Israel and Jews, with the intent of stirring up hatred against them". So if you can't prove that Terje Roed-Larsen made those claims with the intent of stirring up hatred, it has no business in the section. The media makes huge mistakes and trumps up shaky reports ALL THE TIME without any specific racial bias. That, sir, is why proof is relevant. -- Uncle Bungle 18:08, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
No original research in this question about a neologism. If the story about Jenin was infact to incite anti-Semitism, then that should be easy to substantiate with reference to commonly accepted reference texts. Seriously, its just as likely that the whole thing was a media error, not racism, and thats why unless it can be proven to be racism, it has to go. -- Uncle Bungle 18:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am looking for some clarification on the idea that is it anti-Semetic to equate Jews with Nazis. Is this every time without exception? After all the Stern Gang and Baruch Goldstein were all Jewish.
The Nazi regime was clearly guilty of some unspeakable acts. From invading their neighbours and persuing weapons of mass destruction to confiscating poperty, imprisoning dissidents, separing people from their families and business, and yes, even murdering children. If the actions of an individual or an organization are so extreme as to remind one of the Nazis, should not that individual or organizations behaviour supercede their ethnic or religous background?
Throughout the second world war the Nazis murdered over twenty five million Russians (combined civilian and combatant). When Niall Ferguson compared Putin with Hiter [1] could his statements not also be called racist?
Please consider the following:
Although the quote of Chomsky is correct, Chomsky's quote appears to be incorrect. He refers to Necessary Illusions where this passage occurs on p 317:
The note (117) gives references as follows: Judis, In These Times, Sept. 28; New Republic, Oct. 3, 1988. See David Corn, Nation, Oct. 24, 1988, for more on the "haven" for "anti-Semites and fascist sympathizers" in the Republican party. Also Holly Sklar, Z Magazine, Nov. 1988; Charles Allen, Village Voice, Nov. 1, 1988. On the downplaying of the story by the New York Times, see FAIR, Extra!, Sept./Oct. 1988.
In the New Republic , Oct 3, there was a very short (1 page, 1 column) piece called "Anti-Semitism, Left and Right" (page 9). But this article only contains the second and third quotes given by Chomsky. The first and fourth quotes don't occur at all. It refers to "old-fashioned right-wing anti-Semites" ("seven aging Eastern European fascists in the Republican apparatus") and "the anti-Semitism of native-born bigots on the right". It subsequently refers to this kind of anti-Semitism as "rather abstract and altogether without an agenda". The "salient anti-Semitism" of the left, on the other hand, is described as dangerous because it has an agenda. One tenet is "the delegimitization of the Jewish national movement".
There is no reference to the two-state resolution at all. Chomsky's description seems to be tendentious and inaccurate. ( Denis Diderot 17 March 2005)
When Neumann's criticism in Counterpunch is discussed, shouldn't his subsequent email exchange with the "Jewish Tribal Review" be mentioned?. Here are some quotes attributed to Neumann:
"I'm not quite sure whether you guys are antisemtic in the 'bad' sense or not"
"I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable antisemitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious racist antisemitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care. "
"My messages were not thought out with the deliberation I would take in making public pronouncements, and there is absolutely no question but that Zionists could twist them and misuse them."
When the exchange was published against his will at www.jewishtribalreview.org/neumann2.htm, Neumann's judgment was questioned
Neumann's defence is here
(unsigned, anonymous, 18 March 2005)
I don't think these particular e-mail quotes, which I believe have been taken out of context and incorrectly interpreted, are really relevant to this particular article. This article is about the claimed phenomenon "new anti-Semitism". Neumann's arguments against some of the claims made in favor of it are include as part of the counter balance those in favor . It is not about Neumann or anyone else quoted in the article. A separate article on Neumann would might be an appropriate place for the controversy over his e-mail to the Jewish Tribal Review. They do not make any argument for or against the points he makes in the Counterpunch article, they appear to be taken out of context and thus I don't see this as the place for them. Exactly what he meant by them is debatable and their inclusion would come across to me as a sort of adhominum argument to try to discredit the him and thus in turn the argument he makes in the counterpunch article by claiming these quotes prove him to be an anti-Semite/self-hating Jew and thus invalidating his arguments which it wouldn't even if were true. -- Cab88
Without passing judgment on the merits of this section, its recent placement in the article as a level-2 header, subordinating several unrelated sections that follow, is clearly wrong. Would someone please work out where they meant to put this in the article, or if it's just the header level that's wrong, or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Christiaan, please note that arguments for one side are not supposed to be turned into arguments for the other side; this violates NPOV. Each side must be allowed to make its argument. Also, the organizations in question fight anti-Semitism, if you can find widely accepted views that say they do not, then you can question it, not until then. Jayjg (talk) 19:18, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, I see you reverted my edit which changed Accusations of bigotry effectively inhibit debate by demonizing one party to the debate to Accusations of anti-Semitism can and are used in an attempt to discredit and demonise those who criticise Israeli actions, which is more accurate. Why did you revert this? — Christiaan 20:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I remember when I was reasonably young and I was hearing a lot about Israel and Palestine on the telly. At the time I remember thinking to myself that both peoples were as bad as each other; always attacking and counter-attacking. As a young ignorant mind this is how it appeared to me through my television anyway. Eventually I took just a cursory look at the situation away from my television and what struck me was the overwhelming injustice that had been dealt to the Palestinian people. After that I remember debating the situation with someone and being called anti-Semitic for my troubles. What was most interesting is that I didn't even really know what a Jew was, or even what really happened in the Nazi Holocaust, such is my ability to have large gaps of knowledge. So I was looking at the situation with truly fresh eyes for what it was. Alas not any more. To this day I remember that and realise how easy and unjust it is to demonise one's opponent simply by labelling them. Never since have I ever been able to articulate my views as an anti-Zionist without being accused of anti-Semitism. And for writing that last sentence I am by definition of this article an anti-Semite.— Christiaan 19:48, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have rather missed the point. Try asking someone else to explain it to you. Chamaeleon 12:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to know how my comment about you could inadvertently cause anti-Semitism. I wrote: "Oppose. He seems not to have understood Wikipedia:Neutral point of view or Wikipedia:No original research, and takes POV-pushing to extremes. He wrote today that: "I have never seen a statement from the ADL ( Anti-Defamation League) condemning anti-Semitism, only ones condemning leftists," which is absurd. [2] I'm also opposing because of his combative responses to other oppose votes. People should be allowed to vote as they see fit without being challenged by the nominee. And I'm not keen on his sour-grapes-in-advance comment underneath his nomination."
Would you care to explain how that leads to anti-Semitism, and what you mean by "the likes of Jayjg and SlimVirgin"? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:35, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't tell me what you meant, nor how what I said leads to anti-Semitism. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:02, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Can we have some sources for "new anti-Semites argue that Jews view all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic"? — Christiaan 20:34, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(de-indenting) Here's more of the code, from one of the links above.: "Jews relate to anti-semitic conspiracy every criticism of Israel." Jayjg (talk) 22:15, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The argument Christiaan seems to be making is that a number of the examples cited by Jayjg seems to be refering to Zionists not simply Jews in general. Since not all Jews are Zionists then the examples do not equate to saying all jews view critisism of Israel as anti-Semitic but rather all Ziionist view critisism of Israel as anti-Semitic. Thus the straw-man argument is really about Zionist not simply jews in general. At least that how I read the his argument. -- Cab88 23:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That is how the term is, as a matter of fact, used, Christiaan; it is not simply an intention. I have supplied three more articles showing that. You're not allowed to remove edits that are properly referenced to credible publications. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:44, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that Christiaan's version less POV. Anti-semitism is hurled about as a " power word", with the intent to defame and silence anyone critical of Israeli policy or things jewish. "new" anti-semitism is a neologism for cases where it is especially hard to make the case for anti-semitism, and so even the slanderers feel a need for a new term so as to preserve credibility. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 00:49, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See Sapir Worf, words are powerful. If I hear the word "rapist" or "racist" or whatever, I tend to dislike those it is used against psychologically, before I have a chance to know all the details. Many people no longer want to hear all the details once someone is labeled anti-semitic, they already have there mind made up as soon as the power word is dropped. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 10:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The charge of new anti-Semitism is meant to apply to all groups that express unreasonable hostility toward Israel; to the extent that the left-wing tends to level condemnation and perceived unfair criticism against Israel, they are accused of promoting new anti-Semitism.
This passage needs a serious look at I think. It reads as if to conflate the "expression of unreasonable hostility toward Israel" with the "left-wing". — Christiaan 01:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From the article "Today, the number of anti-Zionist Jewish groups worldwide is small." True enough, if Zionism is taken to mean merely believing in the right of the State of Isreal to exist, but the number of Jewish groups opposed to the policies of the Israeli government is far larger. The term Zionism is much more problematic than when there was no state of Israel. At this point, it tends to be associated with a certain maximalist Israeli agenda, not with those who feel that the proper goals of Zionism have already been achieved, and that present Israeli policies excede what is appropriate.
For example, Yesh G'vul and Brit Tzedek v'Shalom are both, in some sense, Zionist, but they are constantly subject to attacks from the Israeli right and its supporters as "self-hating Jews" for what is perceived to be an insufficiently zealous Zionism. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:24, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
"to the extent that the left-wing tends to level condemnation and unfair criticism against Israel, they are accused of promoting new anti-Semitism." This is a matter of proper English usage and logic. The qualifier "to the extent that" states the premise adequately; the logic is that if it's unfair criticism, then it's considered antisemitism. You can argue that the logic is faulty, but this is merely meant to outline what it is. -- Leifern 21:35, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)
Jayjg's last edit summary: to the extent that they do they, they are *accused* of promoting it. Note, *accused*. Not a statement that they actually do so, but the accusation by those who say there is a New anti-Semitism.
Accused is only the second part of the sentence. The first part says "to the extent" and "to the extent" that they do presupposes that there is an extent that they do. And now, no doubt, you're you're going back to your "proponents must be able to state their case" argument. This is not stating the case of the proponents from a neutral stand point. It's stating the proponents case as factually true; that there is an extent to which the left levels unfair criticism at Israel. Do none of you see this??? — Christiaan 22:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The charge of new anti-Semitism is meant to apply to all groups that express unreasonable hostility toward Israel; to the extent that the left-wing levels unfair condemnation and criticism of Israel, they are accused of promoting new anti-Semitism.
There is some ambiguity in this paragraph that I'm having trouble understanding. First, is the second part of the sentence saying something different than the first part, or is it just further explaining the first part. The first part talks about charges meant to apply to "all groups" and the second part talks about the "left-wing". Who is the left-wing exactly and what's different about the left-wing from "all groups"? I find the whole sentence very confusing. -- MPerel( talk | contrib) 23:30, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
We currently have a sentence in the lead section, "The Left in particular is accused of promoting new anti-Semitism in the form of unfair criticism and condemnation of Israel." I guess my main problem is with "The Left in particular..." What could be less particular? Surely the claim is not that all socialists, left-liberals, etc., even those who are Jews, even those who are Israelis, are promoting anti-Semitism. But that's what this says. I'm not sure exactly what it means to say, but could whoever wrote this take a shot at rewriting it to say what they actually mean? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
BTW: I think we should some how incorperate Post-September_11_anti-war_movement#Allegations_of_anti-Americanism_and_anti-Semitism_within_the_European_anti-war_movement in this article as well (maybe as a link with short para descripition and maybe in just copy it under section such as "Left wing and antisemitism" and rewrite the first few sentences). MathKnight 08:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the sentence is intended to indicate that the New anti-Semitism is considered to be more prevalent in left-wing groups, as opposed to the "old anti-Semitism", which was promulgated by right-wing (often fascist) groups. Jayjg (talk) 13:37, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Just curious, is the image in this article (FrenchCemetery103004-01.jpg) an example of "New" anti-semitism or the old anti-semitism since neonazis are on the Right of the political spectrum, and the defacement doesn't have much to do with unfair criticism of Israel? I'm thinking it would be more appropriate in the Anti-semitism article. -- MPerel( talk | contrib) 19:28, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
Is this image is better? It is a graphic work taken from Indymedia. MathKnight 19:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is Jonathan Sachs:
the new antisemitism—and it is new—is a global phenomenon conveyed by Internet, e-mail, television and video, and we do not yet know how the new communications media will affect its spread. --- It is coming simultaneously from three different directions: first, a radicalized Islamist youth inflamed by extremist rhetoric; second, a left-wing anti-American cognitive élite with strong representation in the European media; third, a resurgent far right, as anti-Muslim as it is anti-Jewish. [12]
Benyamin Netanyahu:
The past two years have witnessed a recrudescence of antisemitism in Western Europe the likes of which have not been seen since the end of World War II. Synagogues, schools and other Jewish buildings have been torched and Jews have been subjected to physical and verbal abuse. While most of these acts have been the work of Muslims, it is the European elites who have created an ambience in which antisemitism is no longer considered unacceptable in "polite company". --- Future historians may yet call this "new antisemitism" (the term coined to describe what has been happening in Europe in the last 2 and a half years, since the Palestinians abandoned diplomacy for violence) a watershed in the long gloomy history of Jew-hatred on the European continent. Today, more than five decades after French police rounded up Jews on the streets of Paris for deportation to the East, no Jew with a kippah on his head feels secure walking the streets of any city or town in Europe. [13]
Denis Diderot 21:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please don't remove the image for no reason. I've put it back. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:04, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
From the article (arguments made by opponents to the thesis): "Criticizing or even condemning a state's actions is simply a matter of conscience, and no state is exempt from accountability for its action."
The first part of this seems problematic to me. I'm not sure exactly what it means to say. Clearly criticism of a state's actions can be a matter of conscience, but this seems to say that it is inherently so. In any case, it seems to me that the whole thing would be stronger if we just said, "No state is exempt from accountability for its action". If the rest of this can be said coherently, it probably belongs as a separate item preceding that.
BTW, while I agree that we have a basically accurate summation of the arguments agains the "new anti-Semitism" thesis, do we have citations for any of these arguments? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:01, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Any comments on the proposal to change the current name of the article from "New anti-Semitism" to "Neo anti-Semitism", and direct this page to it. Grammatically, "Neo" is correct, "New" just makes it sound like it really is new and not a modern variant based on previous concepts.
I know it's not nice to compare, but it is for this very same gramatical reasoning that we say "Neo Nazism" not "New Nazism". Also note the very different meaning of "New Nazi" (someon who recently joined the original nazi party) and "Neo Nazi" (not a member of the actual Nazi party, but a member of a modern variant). Al-Andalus 05:17, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC).
In the section New anti-Semitism#Examples cited, the Friedman quote is part of the bullet point about straw-man attacks, but seems to have nothing to do with that topic. I agree that the quote belongs in the article, but not with its placement. I'd have no problem with just inserting a newline before it (that is, taking it outside of the bullet list) but wondered if anyone else has a better idea. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:40, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
What I particularly like about this article is the supreme irony of quoting Dershowitz saying that no Jewish leader has claimed criticism of Israel is dismissed as "antisemitism". He is too modest and, as is appropriate for a lawyer, very careful. I don't think Jewish leaders have ever suggested that criticisms of "particular policies" are driven by antisemitism. It would be nonsense to say: "You criticised the 'security barrier' because you hate Jews" -- transparently dumb. But in a broader sense, this is exactly what is done. In this article Dershowitz makes the accusation he very often does, that antisemitism is a "factor" in attacking Israel's policies. IOW, he does exactly what is being described as a straw man.
I couldn't find in this article any mention of Norman Finkelstein, who levels precisely this charge (among others) at Dershowitz. Finkelstein suggests that the "new anti-Semitism" is fabricated. A balanced article would have referenced him.
I have no interest in editing this article whatsoever. I'll leave that to editors who are more closely interested in this subject than I am. I'm not watching it either, so any comments to my talk page, please.
I want to make absolutely clear that I do not agree with all of Finkelstein's positions, particularly where the Holocaust is concerned, nor do I disagree with all of Dershowitz's. It would be just too ironic to be accused of anti-Semitism on the page about anti-Semitism. I'm asking for balance, not anti-anything-ism. Grace Note 02:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The following was the subject of dispute:
…the new antisemitism—and it is new—is a global phenomenon conveyed by Internet, e-mail, television and video, and we do not yet know how the new communications media will affect its spread. … It is coming simultaneously from three different directions: first, a radicalized Islamist youth inflamed by extremist rhetoric; second, a left-wing anti-American cognitive élite with strong representation in the European media; third, a resurgent far right, as anti-Muslim as it is anti-Jewish. [14]
Opponents of the term generally acknowledge that the "old" anti-Semites have opportunistically latched onto aspects of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and that Arab anti-Zionism has led to a growth of anti-Jewish as well as anti-Israeli sentiment in the Arab world, but argue that claims of a "new" anti-Semitism have largely, or even primarily, been used as a tactic to stifle what these opponents of the term see as legitimate criticism of Israel. Many have questioned the linkage between anti-Semitism and opposition to Israel.
SV| t| add 03:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't follow. This is a quotation from the current Chief Rabbi of the UK. Is someone disputing that Sacks said this, that it belongs in the article or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I know that we live not a hundred years ago but today; at the same time, I hold that we can't neglect to delve under the surface. In particular, what are the motivations of the anti-Zionists, and why do we Jews, or most of us Jews, equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism?
Yes, it isn't our job to untangle their motivations, much less to state them. But we have to remember, and note, that a great deal of the anti-Zionists in the West have nothing to do with Israel at all. A student is rejected from a British University because he was in the Israeli Army! Now, it's difficult to withhold judgment, isn't it?
To what you've written about anti-Zionism I can suggest adding only the analysis by which we Jews conclude that anti-Zionists are anti-Semites. Of course, the answering analysis is, stop with the conspiracy theories! That's very difficult to argue without appearing out of your mind. But note that not all of us who conduct the former analysis make conspiracy theories. -- VKokielov 05:03, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article opening is way too long and rambling. Paragraph-length quotes really don't belong here. They should be placed further down in the article. LevelCheck 18:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The following recently added paragraph is, at best, marginally coherent, and seems rather POV: what the heck are "modern Jewish eyes"? And why should the narrative voice of the article say, "'Statements of principle' from the side have always been considered bad manners in diplomacy…"?
I'd be inclined to just remove, but this is obviously a contentious article, so what do others think about the paragraph? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:33, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
There are far too many external links in this article. We should only be using the most relevant ones, or at least references to content in the article. If footnotes have to be used, either hidden or explicit, that may solve the problem. -- Viriditas | Talk 02:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like to add and clarify content in this article using Pierre-Andre Taguieff's book. If anyone has any information about the author, that would be great. -- Viriditas | Talk 02:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have cut the following highly POV paragraph:
Let's make it easy on ourselves: WP:3O -- VKokielov 20:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I ask for a third opinion because we're not going to come to a consensus by talking. We are looking at each other from different sides of a gorge. It'll save us both a lot of headache if we can involve someone else, someone neutral...Am I wrong? -- VKokielov 20:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wipe my hands clean of this article - I renounce my right to say anything on the question - so that I can answer you here. This is how I answer: if there were no general Jewish opinion, there would be no Jews after all this time. Remember that. The Jews are notorious for their ability to put aside their differences at the slightest provocation, at the slightest sign of danger. They talk of civil war in Israel now? When I raised the question to (another) Jew I trust very much, he told me to wait and see how it never comes to that. And, whatever I suspect or wonder, I know why he's saying what he says. If it comes to civil war, then we Jews are standing before a big tragedy, for us bigger than any other tragedy we've faced.
That was my personal opinion, and (in accordance with every rule of good conduct) I promise not to meddle anymore. Do with that paragraph what you will.--
VKokielov 22:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For the sake of academy, let me tell you what that has to do with Israel and anti-Zionism. A Jew who will not rise to fight for Israel, accusations of misconduct be cursed, is a very peculiar Jew indeed. Have you seen the Israeli left? There is not one Israeli leftist who did not serve his round in the army. So, pardon me, when an Oxford professor spits, like the last idiot in the world, on a student from Israel because (says Oxford) this student was Israeli, why should we be surprised that Oxford punishes him? -- VKokielov 22:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The thing written here do represent a common conception among Jews, Zionists and Israelis, but it is badly written and hard to understand. There is actually a good point here to develop, using the examples of the Oxford professor who refuse to accept an Israeli only because of ita nationality and the AUT recent boycott, to write a paragraph about acadamic boycotts against Israel and the percieved bias and single out of Israel alone to boycotts. Check this Guardian in which you can find some attributation to the claims raised in the paragraph. We definitely have something to work out and discuss. MathKnight 21:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This whole section should be cut, or completely re-written. It is highly POV, irrelevant and leading. It insinuates and makes accusations. There may well be incidents of Anti-Semitism in the UK, but there would be incidents of all other forms of racism as well. It also tries to lable Ken Livingstone as an anti-semite, but he is not, and there is no factual and un-POV evidence to indicate that he might be. -- Chammy Koala 13:57, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
So we now have a lead that totally fails to mention the controversy, even among Jews, surrounding the term? This seems absolutely wrong to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:00, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
I'm currently very busy, not able to keep up with my Watchlist, etc. I will get back to this eventually; meanwhile, no one should mistake my lack of time to address this for agreement with the changes being made. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:13, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
Let me start with a question: where does the definition of "The New anti-Semitism" that makes up the first sentence ("the contemporary (beginning in the late 20th century) resurgence of anti-Jewish incidents and attacks on Jewish symbols as well as the acceptability of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse") come from? It's unattributed and it completely contradicts the Irwin Cotler definition cited/quoted below.
I don't want to be disruptive here, but in the case of a controversial term, we need to be discussing that term the way it's used in the literature. I finally found myself with an hour or so on my hands and thought I'd try to work on the lead, as discussed, but the article now announces itself as being on a rather different topic than just a few days ago. Can someone please find a set of cited definitions and write a first paragraph or two accordingly? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:36, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Twenty-five years after the end of World War II and the collapse of the most anti-Semitic regime in history, anti-Semitism appears to be on the rise around the world. But unlike the situation before 1945 when anti-Jewish polirics was largely identified with rightist elements, the current wave is linked to governments, parties and groups which are conventionally described as leftist.[---]One may oppose Israeli policy, resist Zionism or criticize worldwide Jewish support of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But when one draws on age-old hostility to Jews to strenghten a political position, when one gives credence to this charge of a worldwide Jewish plot to rule, when one attacks those with whom one has political and econonomic differences as Jews, when one implies that Jews are guilty of some primal evil, then one is guilty of anti-Semitism,[---]The Arabs, of course, like other critics of the Jews on the far left and right, insist that they are only anti-Zionist. Yet there is clear evidence that anti-Semitism -- not simply anti-Zionism -- has deeply penetrated Arab groups and governments.[---]Given the clear-cut anti-Semitic character of much pro-Arab propaganda [...] the question arises as to why so many on the left, including many Jews, hace accepted such politics as their own, or more commonly, have abstained from criticizing groups such as the Black Panthers, no matter how explicit their bigotry. [---]The fact that this time the predominant weight of the anti-Semitic thrust is on the left rather then the right will surprise only those who are unaware of the considerable literature on anti-Semitism [sic] in the socialist and other leftist movements.
the new anti-Semitism is not necessarily deliberate in character and is more often expressed by respected individuals and institutions here and abroad -- people who would be shocked to think of themselves, or have other think them, anti-Semites
The new antisemitism consists of Israel-bashing. It is more than a matter of attacking the policies of the Israeli government, which is legitimate, Abella says, if you disagree with those policies. But accusing Zionists of racism, negating Israel's right to exist as an independent state, and using Nazi metaphors to describe IDF actions in the administered territories is antisemitic.
Her evidence was that the "new" anti-Semitism places great emphasis on Holocaust-denial and belief in Jewish conspiracies and control of governments. She noted that racism may be expressed overtly or may be covert. It has become more subtle in recent years. In her view, the more serious forms of racism are those that are hidden in popular culture, such as in the words, images and descriptions used by media writers.
O.K., as I see it, there is currently a phenomenon where Israel and its assumed supporters (i.e. Jews) are being increasingly attacked in various ways (in print, verbally, physically). Proponents of the concept of a "New anti-Semitism" say that this is "New anti-Semitism" because a) Jews are being attacked as a result of antipathy for Israel, and b) Israel is being attacked in the same way that anti-Semites attack Jews, often as a socially acceptable cover or proxy for anti-Semites, and c) attacks now come not only from the right, but from the left, as purported "anti-racism". Opponents of the concept say this is not "New anti-Semitism" because a) Jews being attacked is just plain old anti-Semitism, and b) Israel is simply being legitimately criticized on moral grounds, there's nothing anti-Semitic about it, and c) charges of anti-Semitism are just a ploy to stifle debate and criticism. From what I can tell, the definitions given by various people above do not disagree on these fundamental points, so there is no pre-2001/post-2001 dichotomy. Am I missing something here? Jayjg (talk) 06:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- Viriditas | Talk 09:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I feel like I'm being buried under the weight of these, but there is no statement as to what you think these each demonstrate. Is this intended as a response to my issues above? If so, sorry, but I can't see the upshot. May I at least presume that you consider this a representative sample of statements by people who believe in the "new anti-semitism" model? Or is your point something else entirely? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:35, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
Wll, I think what this comes down to is that "New anti-Semitism" is a neologist term, (as the article was months ago) which it's propents insist isn't merely a term, but rather a real thing/phenomenon itself – similar enough to anti-Semitism to be called "anti-Semitism" but distinct and different enough to be called brand "new". This should raise some incongruities about the logic of such a term:
Does "New anti-Semitism" mean that "old" anti-Semitism is dead and no longer a continuing issue? The term seems to assert that all recent anti-Semitism is "new anti-Semitism" and conversely, it seems to imply a meaningful distinction between past and recent anti-Semitism, based simply on the aspect of time. But if "new anti-Semitism" actually is anti-Semitism, then by who's definition is recent time a valid sub-distinction from a category that spans millenia —back to before even the "troubler of Israel," Elijah. The article (as it is written) leads one to understand that the definition of "New anti-Semitism" is not based merely on time, but rather a whole bunch of other criteria mixed in with it. Is any of that criteria POV, and if so, how can this article be said to be anything other than a term, not really distinguishable from anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism?
Whats left is that one can reasonably make the assertion that most of the "new Anti-Semitism" can simply redirect-merge to anti-Zionism or anti-Judaism. The assertion that the term is anything more than a term to label certain political views as anti-Semitism is a POV one, and is only attributable to contemporary conservative polemicists, seeking to impose an agenda. The 64KUSD question – is this POV title worthy of an article? Answer: Only if its basis keeps to what it is, and not shifted to what it claims or asserts. - SV| t 18:22, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
SV, in answer to your questions, proponents of the view that there is a "New antisemitism" say that it differs from the "Old antisemitism" in a number of ways I have outlined above. However, date is not a primary differentatior, but rather an effect; that is to say, "New antisemitism" is not defined as "antisemitism that occurred after the year 1990", but rather a different kind of antisemitism which has only manifested in recent times. As for it being based on "based on anti- racism and anti- nationalism", proponents of the idea that there is a new antisemitism are quite careful to note that, in their view, it is based on purported anti-racism and anti-nationalism. For example, the Ozick quote above:Cynthia Ozick observes in an afterword that the "new" anti-Semitism accelerates under the rubric of "anti-Zionism" and is masked by the deceptive language of "human rights." This is the Big Lie of our time, propelled with "malice of aforethought by the intellectual classes, the governing elites, the most prestigious elements of the press in all the capitals of Europe and by the university professors and the diplomats." Or, as Chesler says, "it is being perpetrated in the name of antiracism etc." As for trying to decipher whether these claims are true or not, that's not the purpose of Talk: pages or Wikipedia articles, remember, as WP:NPOV states, Disputes are characterized in Wikipedia. They are not re-enacted.. Jayjg (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Weird, the 00:53 version by Levelcheck I just reverted doesn't show up in the history, but it does show up in the diff. Perhaps the database isn't caught up. Anyway, Levelcheck, the intro was inadequate, too much of a straw man definition. That's why I reverted in agreement with SlimVirgin's revert. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 01:00, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
Over 10,000 demonstrate against 'israel' new york city http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/April2805nyc.cfm
Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews Protest the State of Israel, Says Neturei Karta International http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=46640
Whenever a cultural phenomenon X reappears after a period of decline or absence, some people will call it "the new X" or "neo-X". Thus, for example "the new romantics", "the new realists", "neo-Nazism", "Neoliberalism" etc. These expressions don't imply that X is something new. To the contrary, they assert that X is something old that has re-emerged. But as soon as people realize that X has reappeared, they begin to compare the new X with the old X. And then they may discover some differences, and they may say things like "the new X is B, whereas the old X was A". Subsequently some people may discover that some of the new X is A as well. Rather then saying "the new X that is A", some people will use expressions like "the old X", "traditional X", "classical X", "paleo-X". Thus at this point some people will include "the new X that is A" in the concept of "the new X", and they will continue to call it "the new X". Other people will also include it in "new X", but often refer to it as "old X". Finally, some people will exclude "X that is A" altogether from "the new X".
The expression "the new anti-Semitism" first became popular in the early 1970s and was used to describe certain phenomena noted in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The main phenomenon was the reappearance and apparent acceptability of anti-Semitic stereotypes in public discourse. The expression was controversial from the beginning, since people were called anti-Semitic who didn't see themselves as anti-Semitic or didn't want to be seen as anti-Semitic. Especially controversial was the claim that words like "Zionist" and "Zionism" could be euphemisms for "Jew" and "the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world". To be more precise, the claim was not controversial when applied to some neo-Nazi groups who had clearly adopted this usage in their "exoteric" pronouncements. (Though it was of course denied by the neo-Nazis.) But the claim was widely controversial even when applied to other openly racist groups. The expression became even more controversial when some commentators claimed that almost all forms of anti-Zionism were anti-Semitism. The basis for such claims was (1) that "Zionism" was "Jewish nationalism". To be against Zionism was therefore to be against Jewish nationalism. Because anti-Zionist supported other forms of nationalism (e.g. Arab or Palestinian) they were clearly biased against Jews. (2) Even if Zionism was understood in a more narrow sense as support for the Jewish state, anti-Zionists applied standards to Israel that they did not apply to other states. For example, they did not demand that Arab states should cease being Moslem. The anti-Zionists obviously didn't accept this argument. They generally rejected the first wide definition of Zionism and argued that Zionism should be seen as a form of colonialism, imperialism or racism, whereas Arab and Moslem nationalism (Islamism) should be seen as a struggle for independence.
In 2001 Pierre-André Taguieff, a French historian of political ideas, presented an updated version of his old analysis of "the new Judeophobia". He argued that after the 1967 Six-Day War, a "new anti-Semitism" was spread across the world around a "conspiracy myth" labeled (by Taguieff) "absolute anti-Zionism". The main sources for the myth were the Arab Moslem world and the Soviet empire. Around demonized images of Zionism and Israel, all the ancient anti-Semitic themes were conjured. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, for example, was massively diffused in 1967. He further maintained that a second wave of Judeophobia had swept across the world in the late 1990s. This time around the Soviet empire was out of business, but judeophobic themes were often amplified by passing from some Arab source through the far right to some leftist groups. Taguieff listed 4 characteristics of the "new Judeophobia": (1) The massive use of anti-Racism to promote anti-Jewish goals, (2) "Banalization" of the themes and language of Holocaust deniers, (3) Legitimization of anti-Semitic agitation by reference to radical anti-imperialism, anti-Americanism and criticism of free-trade globalization, and (4) Interaction with Islamist notions of Israel as the "little Satan" mixed with a demonized image of the Zionist control of the Western world. He thus disctinguished between "the old Judeophobia", which was based on explicit racism, and "the new Judeophobia", which was based on "demonological or absolute anti-Zionism". Taguieff's terminology has been adopted by other researchers and commentators and thus "the new Judeophobia" is a rather well-defined expression which means (in general) the modern (post 1967) use of anti-Semitic themes legitimized by anti-Zionism. Sometimes the expression "new anti-Semitism" has been used as a synonym of "new Judeophobia".
From a November 2001 editorial by Amotz Asa-El in Jerusalem Post:
In the post-war era, again, anti-Semitism fueled a Zionist psychosis across the former Eastern Bloc, ultimately unleashing another mass immigration to Israel.
YET, TODAY'S challenge is different, since all these precedents were part of the Jews' European experience. Today's crisis is about anti-Semitism entering an entirely new phase in its already elaborate history.
Previous turning points in the development of anti- Semitism - since early Christianity condemned our forefathers, ourselves, and our descendants as Christ's killers - included the barring of Jews from public office in the waning days of the Roman Empire, a measure that socially marginalized the Jews; prohibitions on land ownership and cultivation, which enhanced the Jews' image as transient guests wherever they resided; the 1096 Crusaders' mass murder of entire communities in Germany; the 1215 Lateran Council's yellow-badge decree, which made the Jew carry his own discrimination wherever he went; the late Medieval expulsions, which made the threat of displacement a hallmark of the Jewish psyche; the 1648 massacres in East Europe, which happened despite an unwritten alliance between the Jews and the Polish nobility; and, of course, modern anti-Semitism, which depicted the Jews as nearly anyone's demon, from the fascists' anti-patriots to the Marxists' plutocrats and the Stalinists' "rootless cosmopolitans."
Now, just when the Christianity that invented it goes through pains to turn its back on anti-Semitism, it is being adopted by an Islamism intent to scapegoat the Jews for its own failures and eager to mobilize deep-seated prejudices among Christians against the Jews.
Newsweek cover story April 2002:
Murray Gordon for AJC August 2002:Many see the rise in Western Europe of what they call the "new anti-Semitism" as even more worrisome. Since serious Israeli-Palestinian fighting began in the fall of 2000, there has been a spike in harassment and vandalism targeting Jews, especially in France. Much of that is in poor communities where immigrant Muslims and immigrant Jews from North Africa live side by side. Unemployment and frustrations are high. Arab satellite stations, as well as European news networks, broadcast a steady stream of reports on Palestinians under fire, their homes destroyed, their lands reoccupied, their children killed. There is also, in many parts of Europe, a residue of the old racist attitudes that spawned the Fascist and Nazi policies of the 1930s. One of the presidential candidates in France's upcoming elections, Jean-Marie Le Pen, skirts the limits of the law baiting both Arabs and Jews. He's expected to garner 10 percent of the vote
What is referred to as the "new anti-Semitism," which resonates so powerfully in Western Europe today, is not exactly new. Arab attacks against Jews occurred during and after the Yom Kippur War in 1973 and during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 to root out the PLO, which had been using the country as a platform to shell Israeli towns and settlements. What is different about today's Arab violence is its scope and intensity.
2003 headline from Jerusalem Post: "Jews fear 'new' anti-Semitism in quiet German city"
Surveys say anti-Jewish assaults and incidents in much of Europe are at their most frequent since Hitler's defeat.
Germany is especially sensitive because, within living memory, Hitler put to death 6 million Jews. But violence is more prevalent in France, where slums are crowded with disaffected young Arabs.
"Of course, we're afraid - we are terrified," said Ima Buchinger, an 18-year-old student, at the Regensburg synagogue on the anniversary of Kristallnacht, the nationwide Nazi pogrom of 1938.
Tall and blonde, she might pass for a Wagnerian opera diva. Still, she said, young Arabs, Turks, and Germans taunt her and her Jewish friends, sometimes threatening physical violence.
As she spoke, German police in a Volkswagen van were at their usual spot outside, just as security forces watch over synagogues in Vienna, Paris, or London.
Rabbi Dannyel Morag advises calm but caution to his Regensburg community - 700 in a city of 160,000, many of them recent Russian immigrants with a thin grasp of either Hebrew or Torah.
"So far, we're OK," he said, "but in big cities it can be terrible. Some Jews can't find non-Jewish business partners because so many Germans think there may be trouble again, and they're afraid."
-- Denis Diderot 06:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
From my cursory reading, I say, great improvement, nice work. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 07:35, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
This is unattributed and may be false. One difficulty here is that even if people discuss the difference between "old" and "new" anti-Semitism, it doesn't necessarily mean that they always see them as distinct entities existing side by side. I don't think I've ever, for example, seen a breakdown of anti-Semitic incidents on the basis of "old" vs "new anti-Semitism. Many times it is close to impossible to deduce from a particular text what definition the author is using. Because my previous examples clearly haven't been enough to convey the fundamental ambiguity of the term I will provide two additional example from a recent (2004) book, "Those who forget the past: the question of anti-Semitism". These two authors clearly don't see any sharp distinction between "old anti-Semitism" , as exemplified by neo-Nazism, and "the new anti-Semitism".The word "new" in this construction refers only secondarily to the fact that this is "recent" anti-Semitism. The term New anti-Semitism is strongly identified with a controversial view that this new anti-Semitism is distinct—in its rhetoric, in its pretexts, and its locus on the political spectrum—from the old anti-Semitism that continues to exist alongside of it.
We see that Nazism, communism, radical pan-Arab nationalism, and Islamism share a remarkably similar demonology of the Jew. [---]The new anti-Semitism eagerly scavenges this arsenal of older images which, since the onset of modernity, have stereotyped the Jews as a dangerously mobile, rootless, abstract, and transnational mafia uniquely tuned to exploit capitalist economy and culture. (Robert S. Wistrich pp. 88-89)
This new anti-Semitism is a kaledioscope of old hatreds shattered and rearranged into random patterns at once familiar and strange. It is the medieval image of the “Christ-killing” Jew resurrected on the editorial pages of cosmopolitan European newspapers. It is the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement refusing to put the Star of David on their ambulances. It is Zimbabwe and Malaysia – nations nearly bereft of Jews – warning of an international Jewish conspiracy to control the world's finances. It is neo-Nazis donning checkered Palestinian kaffiyehs and Palestinians lining up to buy copies of 'Mein Kampf'. (Mark Strauss p272)
I don't think an encyclopedia should concern itself too much with the meaning of words and expressions. That is a task for dictionaries. Wikipedia should simply note that the expression is ambiguous, describe the various meanings, and avoid making unattributed claims about the relative frequency or "properness" of any interpretation (unless the interpretation is clearly marginal or incorrect acording to dictionaries). -- Denis Diderot 08:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
This is exactly what "the new anti-Semitism" refers to. The anti-Semitism article is too long for adding information about "the new anti-Semitism" to it. It wouldn't present any problem to direct readers from a general article on "the new anti-Semitism" to information about "the New anti-Semitism" under the "new Judeophobia" heading. I really don't think that we disagree substantially on any of this, and I certainly don't think that I am "unfamiliar with the topic" as you seem to suggest. -- Denis Diderot 10:41, 3 May 2005 (UTC)The New anti-Semitism refers to a contemporary (beginning in the late 20th century) international resurgence of anti-Jewish incidents and attacks on Jewish symbols as well as the acceptability of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse.
It seems to me that "New Judeophobia" is pretty much a neologism, and we shouldn't use it.
I agree that not everyone means the same thing by "new anti-Semitism" (or "New anti-Semitism" or "New Anti-Semitism"); I doubt that the views run in neat parallel with the choice of capitalization.
This article clearly should be about the thesis that there is something distinctly new about the present mode of anti-Semitism, and about the debate over that thesis. Insofar as the term simply means "recent anti-Semitism", that's not an article topic: if everyone agreed that was all that was going on, this would all just go in the anti-Semitism article. Recent incidents of anti-Semitic violence merit mention in the article insofar as they bolster the thesis (e.g. anti-Semitic violence coming from sectors that were not part of the "old" anti-Semitism), but they should not be the subject of the article.
Hope I was clear here; I'm writing "on the run". Let me know if anything I said is confusing. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:11, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
In reference to Wikipedia:Lead section, the current lead is too long, too complex (not clear), and incomprehensible to the average reader. Denis Diderot's recent addition to the lead should be added to a "History" section, as it is not necessary in the lead. The current description added by Jmabel needs to be condensed down to two small sentences. Please try reading this article as if you were a totally disinterested reader who knew nothing about the topic. If I were such a person and I was reading the article in its current state, I would not read past the first paragraph. -- Viriditas | Talk 04:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
The following sentence has found its way back into the lead: "This view is very controversial, especially through the association between the "new anti-Semitism" and the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict." I'm not even sure what this means but "…through the association between…" is extremely unclear, unclear to such a degree that if I were not already familiar with this topic, I could not even make an educated guess at what it might mean. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:57, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't it the nature of the beast that any attempt to define "new" and "leading edge" cases of anti-semitism is automatically POV?
Before I attempt to tackle this controversial section, I would like to know why the "Opponents" subsection is listed before proponents. -- Viriditas | Talk 06:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
A note of this needs to be made in the article. Many groups on the left sympathize with the palestinians as being an oppressed people, which comprises their main opposition to the state of Israel, this article makes no distinction between anti-semitism and opposition to jewish colonialism of palestine.-- 68.74.30.182 23:03, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be removed by now. MathKnight 12:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
It's still a messy article. For example, I just excised this mangled comment which had snuck into the text:
"Are we going to have ping-pong claims and counter-claims? Are we now going to have a "what the propoponents answer" section as well, followed by a "what the opponents answer in response etc."? Please integrate these arguments into the opponents section, rather than extending a debate down the page." --
LeFlyman 06:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Responding to an idiotic comment on the discussion page of Black supremacy, I found myself at The Holocaust. Mindful that this article is an overview of the subject with numerous other, related articles elsewhere on this web site, I still think this piece could use some major additions, major work. The subject is not a primary interest of mine, so I don't foresee myself contributing much more beyond that which I already have. But this is a general solicitation (I haven't done so on the wiki page set aside specifically for that purpose; I figured this was more direct) for contributors to converge upon the page and improve the piece. I've made some suggestions in talk. Take 'em or leave 'em, but please contribute however you feel so moved. The article seems to have been nominated for featured article status, and that effort (understandably) failed. The next time it's nominated, such a thing shouldn't happen again. Peace. deeceevoice 13:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If anyone think that the Latuff cartoon is Anti-Semitic, it's just a PoV, not a fact. So this cartoon has nothing to do in the part "Anti-Semitic cartoons".
The fact about allegation of IDF Spokesman Brigadier-General Ron Kitrey needs to be covered. Please stop erase it.
-- Marcoo 23:16, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When an image is included to illustrate a part of an article, the choice must respect the NPoV. Here, it doesn't. The article can't carry the POVs it presents.
Just few allegation of massacre came before the April 12. For example, the figures given by Terje Roed-Larsen came after.
-- Marcoo 23:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"As for the IDF spokesman's statement being misunderstood, why do you think it needs to be covered?" : Because all Israeli newspapers wrote the allegations by the IDF spokesman, so the report by Terje Roed-Larsen has to be read in this context. -- Marcoo 00:00, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"The picture is an example of the POV it represents" : So the name of this part must become : "Cartoons described as Anti-Semitic"
If you read an article named "Anti-Semitic cartoons", it means the cartoons you see are Anti-Semitic. It's not a NPoV. -- Marcoo 00:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"why do imagine that they were based on the IDF spokesman's claim" : I don't imagine anything, I gave the exact chronology. If you want to add more facts, feel free, but dont delete exact facts.
-- Marcoo 00:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you try to assert that people who revert your edits are "vandals", you will no doubt get little sympathy from the admins, who have no qualms about blocking in spite of such allegations. Vandalism has a very specific and narrow definition on Wikipedia. As for your 3 lines in the "opponents" section, I explained quite clearly what the problem is; they appear to be original research; that is, novel arguments you have made up on your own. Could you please find a source which shows opponents of the concept of "New anti-Semitism" using these arguments? Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 14:30, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As for the Jenin part - lengthy discussion should be made in the Battle of Jenin 2002. But I will say it loud and clearly:
MathKnight 11:33, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is written : "One claim made by opponents of Israel and/or the notion of a new anti-Semitism is that defenders of Israel insist that any criticism of the State of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism."
I never heard about such a claim. I've heard about the claim (from opponents of the notion of a new anti-Semitism) that defenders of Israel would often use the word Anti-Semitic to disqualify any criticism of Israel, but never saw the claim that defenders of Israel would insist that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Do you have any sources ? -- Marcoo 12:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If there no sources about this, I proposed to remove the paragraph. -- Marcoo 14:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wrote the link you gave me, but the given links :
aren't an answer to my question.
"Jews relate to anti-semitic conspiracy every criticism of Israel." : I never said that nobody told this !
What I said is I've never heard anybody told that defenders of Israel insist that any criticism of the State of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism. It's a big difference I think. So in my opinion we have to re-write the paragraph. -- Marcoo 15:42, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, sorry for my english. I'm going to try to explain :
First, I agree with the fact that some people say that defenders of Israel, when they are confronted to an argument which is a criticism of Israel, want to link it to Anti-Semitism. That's what all yours sources above are talking about.
But who said that defenders of Israel explicitly accept and explain the idea that any criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitic ? I've never heard that.
In the article, a quote of Alan Dershowitz "Show me a single instance where a major Jewish leader or Israeli leader has ever said that criticizing a particular policy of Israeli government is anti-Semitic".
But nobody never told that defenders of Israel explain that criticizing a particular policy of Israeli government is anti-Semitic ! Defenders of Israel are sometimes accused to systematically link critics of Israel to Anti-Semitic, but without saying of course that any criticism of Israel is Antisemitic.
So the assertion : "One claim made by opponents of Israel and/or the notion of a new anti-Semitism is that defenders of Israel insist that any criticism of the State of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism." is strange because I never saw this and that's why I ask for sources. -- Marcoo 21:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, they give sources of the claim that in front of a criticism of Israel, some defenders of Israel always try to link it to Anti-Semitism. It doesn't give sources of the claim that defenders of Israel say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's not the same thing ! -- Marcoo 22:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I must say, as a more general point - the whole Straw-man para really does seem to be intended to express a particular POV to me.
It's quite true by the way that defenders of Israeli actions and policy will play the anti-Semite card from time to time, and I think the article should at least reflect this. Some won't, and fair enough - I can't say I've ever heard a major Israeli politician do that. But some do. jamesgibbon 02:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Because Jayjg is asking me, I will give sources for what I included in "Opponents, Opponents of the claim of New anti-Semitism assert that:" part.
1. "The double standard is in favor of Israel in regard of disrespect of the international laws."
See (in french) : "notre dénonciation lors des manifestations anti-guerre du "deux poids, deux mesures" concernant l'Irak que l'on bombarde d'un côté et Israël qui jouit d'une totale impunité malgré ses crimes, ses violations des résolutions de l'ONU et sa possession d'armes de destruction massive"
[25], see [26] for automatic translation.
2. "The Israeli-Arab conflict is important not because of the amount of casualties but for geo-strategic, symbolic, religious, historical reasons."
(editing)
3. "Many Anti-Semitic allegations come from Zionist non-Jewish people who spread the idea that Israel is the only legitimate State for Jews."
(editing)
-- Marcoo 14:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editors on forums on the net could never be considered as opponents of the claim of New anti-Semitism ? Can you explain me why ? -- Marcoo 20:37, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do you have to ask me twice the same thing in half an hour ? Let me the time to see that you asked me something...
OK for your explanation about quotes from forums. All the sources I included in my last changes on the article talk about the supposed rize of a "new anti-Semitism". Even if you don't speak French, you can check it using an automatic translation. -- Marcoo 22:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You can use the automatic translation you want, as Google's one. The views are notable, coming from well-known activist Michel Warschawski, well known french association MRAP, and from a conference about Christian Zionism. -- Marcoo 22:38, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think you didn't understand the articles. They are alking about the same concept. In France, it's called a come back of Anti-Semitism but it is the thing you call in the States New Anti-Semitism. -- Marcoo 21:21, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I add that on New anti-Semitism page, I read :
"This view [of New AntiSemitism] is very controversial, especially because it presumes a connection between the New anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism". -- Marcoo 21:30, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Un groupe d'intellectuels sionistes européens vient de trouver la solution, en faisant intervenir l'inconscient et un concept passe-partout qu'ils nomment "le glissement sémantique". Quand on dénonce le sionisme, voire quant on critique Israël, on a, parfois inconsciemment, comme objectif non pas la politique d'un gouvernement (le gouvernement Sharon) ou la nature coloniale d'un mouvement politique (le sionisme) ou encore le racisme institutionnel d'un état (Israël), mais les Juifs."
"Ceux qui dénoncent les actes antisémites, réels ou fruits de "glissements sémantiques", mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme, car ce n'est pas le racisme, quel qu'il soit et d'où qu'il vienne, qu'ils combattent, mais uniquement le racisme de l'autre. Ce ne sont certainement pas eux, les Tarnero, Lanzman et autres Taguieff, qui ont le droit de faire la leçon aux militants de la gauche radicale et du mouvement contre la mondialisation marchande, qui depuis toujours, ont été à la pointe de tous les combats anti-racistes, et n'en ont jamais déserté aucun."
The famous book by Taguieff Michel Warschawski is referring is called "La nouvelle judéophobie" (literally "the new judeophobia").
"Le MRAP n'acceptera jamais que la condamnation de la politique criminelle d'Ariel Sharon soit assimilée à de l'antisémitisme. La volonté de certains de déplacer le conflit israélo-palestinien sur un terrain communautaire ou religieux , alors qu'il relève exlusivement répétons le, d'une question de justice et de droit international, dans le respect des résolutions des Nation Unies, est d'une gravité extrême. Cette attitude ne peut que banaliser l'antisémitisme (la profanation du cimetière juif de Herrlisheim prouve que contrairement aux propos tenus par le président du CRIF, l'antisémitisme de l'extrême droite n'a pas disparu!), et favoriser le développement de tous les racismes, de la haine et de la violence ainsi que du communautarisme."
Here he's talking about a new supposed kind of Anti-Semitism, opposed to the old kind ("l'antisémitisme de l'extrême droite n'a pas disparu!").
-- Marcoo 22:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"and watch the 3 Revert Rule" -> You reverted 3 times my changes : [27], [28] and [29] in 1,5 hour. Good job for an admin. :-) Why do you delete everytimes my changes before asking me explanations ? I wonder how did you become Admin... -- Marcoo 22:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I felt a little bit agressed when I was asked twice the same new question in 30 min, waiting for my answer. Nevertheless, I'm surprised to see that my changes were immediatly deleted everytimes, whereas I never refused to stop the dialog and always gave explanation. -- Marcoo 08:24, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"I am clearly involved in dialogue here with you" -> In this dialog, you always suppose first that what I say is false, so it's quite agressive as a dialog.
I didn't see first your comment. I explain : In France, some people express the idea that the New Anti-Semitism is in fact a Strawman Anti-Semitism. That's why they are opponents to the idea of New Anti-Semitism (as developped for example by Taguieff and Tarnero). It's not because you don't see exactly the words "New Antisemitism" in google's translation that it means they don't speak about it. -- Marcoo 22:13, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Un groupe d'intellectuels sionistes européens vient de trouver la solution, en faisant intervenir l'inconscient et un concept passe-partout qu'ils nomment "le glissement sémantique". Quand on dénonce le sionisme, voire quant on critique Israël, on a, parfois inconsciemment, comme objectif non pas la politique d'un gouvernement (le gouvernement Sharon) ou la nature coloniale d'un mouvement politique (le sionisme) ou encore le racisme institutionnel d'un état (Israël), mais les Juifs."
You take the axiom that "New anti-Semitism" is different than "Strawman anti-Semitism". But in France the opponents of the notion of "New anti-Semitism" say that this one is in reality a "Strawman anti-Semitism". -- Marcoo 22:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Ceux qui dénoncent les actes antisémites, réels ou fruits de "glissements sémantiques", mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme, car ce n'est pas le racisme, quel qu'il soit et d'où qu'il vienne, qu'ils combattent, mais uniquement le racisme de l'autre. Ce ne sont certainement pas eux, les Tarnero, Lanzman et autres Taguieff, qui ont le droit de faire la leçon aux militants de la gauche radicale et du mouvement contre la mondialisation marchande, qui depuis toujours, ont été à la pointe de tous les combats anti-racistes, et n'en ont jamais déserté aucun."]
The famous book by Taguieff Michel Warschawski is referring is called "La nouvelle judéophobie" (literally "the new judeophobia").
Because he speaks about the position of Tarnero, Lanzman, and Taguieff, who are known to develop the idea of a "New Anti-Semitism", as Taguieff's book called "la nouvelle judeophobie". -- Marcoo 22:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Le MRAP n'acceptera jamais que la condamnation de la politique criminelle d'Ariel Sharon soit assimilée à de l'antisémitisme. La volonté de certains de déplacer le conflit israélo-palestinien sur un terrain communautaire ou religieux , alors qu'il relève exlusivement répétons le, d'une question de justice et de droit international, dans le respect des résolutions des Nation Unies, est d'une gravité extrême. Cette attitude ne peut que banaliser l'antisémitisme (la profanation du cimetière juif de Herrlisheim prouve que contrairement aux propos tenus par le président du CRIF, l'antisémitisme de l'extrême droite n'a pas disparu!), et favoriser le développement de tous les racismes, de la haine et de la violence ainsi que du communautarisme."
Same anwser than for first source. -- Marcoo 22:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Marcoo had added the following to the opponents section:
Apart from the problem with phrases like "in regard of irrespect" or "opponents of the argument respond to these objections", these claims were unsourced and of doubtful relevance to the topic (whether the "new anti-Semitism" is a reality).
Marcoo has since provided some sources that are supposed to support the claims. They have been discussed above.
One problem is that Marcoo provides French sources and make claims about the French discourse which are difficult to verify for people who don't read French. Jayjg therefore asked me for help. Here are my comments:
1) Michael Warschawski. [30] Warschawski does not argue against the existance of a new anti-Semitism. He argues against the identification of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism which he calls a "semantic shift" ("glissement sémantique"). He also also complains about the one-sided concern with anti-Semitism without taking note of anti-Arabism. In fact, he seems to support the claim of a new anti-Semitism. Here is an ugly (too literal) translation: "Anti-Semitism exists, and, in Europe, appears to raise its head again after being unvoiced for half a century following the horrors of the Nazi judeocide and crimes of collaboration. In a growing segment of Arab-Muslim communities in Europe, racist generalizations accuse, without distinction, Jews of crimes commited by the Jewish State and its army."
2) Renée le Mignot, MRAP. [31] She doesn't discuss the issues at all. It contains a general discussion of MRAP's position on the Arab-Israeli conflict (support of a two-state solution). There is a brief statement towards the end that "condamnation of the criminal politics of Ariel Sharon" must never be "assimilated to anti-Semitism".
Denis Diderot 03:03, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"I didn't judge the value or relevance of arguments." You did. You said that opponents have to argue either that there isn't any new anti-Semitism or that the New anti-Semitism is of the same order as the old. You decided how the opponents' arguments should be to be acceptable for you.
""Ceux qui dénoncent les actes antisémites, réels ou fruits de "glissements sémantiques", mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme, car ce n'est pas le racisme, quel qu'il soit et d'où qu'il vienne, qu'ils combattent, mais uniquement le racisme de l'autre. Ce ne sont certainement pas eux, les Tarnero, Lanzman et autres Taguieff, qui ont le droit de faire la leçon aux militants de la gauche radicale et du mouvement contre la mondialisation marchande, qui depuis toujours, ont été à la pointe de tous les combats anti-racistes, et n'en ont jamais déserté aucun."
is an explicit criticism of french authors who develop the concept of New Anti-Semitism, I don't see what you want more. In the first sentence, Warschawski gives the idea that this way to develop this concept which is outside of the context ("mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes") is dangerous ("portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme"), and for M. W. proponents of so-called New Anti-Semitism don't even fight the racism, but give more power to the Anti-Semitism itself ("le renforcement de l'antisémitisme"). If you've read the Taguieff's book, the criticism of the concept of New Anti-Semitism by M.W. and what he's referring is quite explicit. -- Marcoo 01:01, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's quite clear you believe that, Marcoo, but you haven't been able to actually provide a citation showing that. Unless they address the issue directly, we can't go about assuming what they mean and entering it as fact. Jayjg (talk) 22:47, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
All of the sources in this section alleging anti-semitism on US campuses come from either an article on the Anti-Defamation League website (itself using words such as 'allegedly') or a text file with no sources mentioned. If better sources cannot be found (especially considering the section claims the offences were caught on videotape) then this section should, at the least, be considerably reworded, if not deleted.
Additionally, the section on the San Francisco bay report 'ignoring the racist, violent nature of the atttacks' is clearly POV. illWill 19:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In line with the "political" and "unequal treatment" forms of anti-Semitism in the guise of Anti-Zionism, we have examples creating a furor here on Wikipedia.
See:
Zionist Terrorism and
Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Zionist_terrorism
Israeli Terrorism and
Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Israeli_terrorism
--
LeFlyman 05:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're right, the comments were visible. However, your removing them made some other commented out text visible; I've removed it all now. Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Many of the links on this page take the reader to Hebrew-language sites - no good if you are interested in checking the sources of some of the claims here. I don't know Wkipedia policy on this, but it doesn't seem right that the en Wikipedia uses non-english sources. If nobody can supply English versions, they should go.
Also, there are many sources (see section I added about incidents in the United States above) which come from press releases released by the ADL with no links to their origins either - this is tantamount to presenting the POV of teh ADL as if it were fact, and isn't really much different from the 'No original research' caveat which pops up all the time. illWill 13:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The official policy on Verifiability suggests rather strongly that sources should be in English wherever possible. It is not a carved-in-stone requirement, but please "pander" to us anglophones as much as possible. Thanks. 64.140.89.34 02:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose that this enormous table be removed, and the contents summarised in a shorter paragraph. As quite a lot of the material is the point of view of Cotler, I don't think it warrants the amount of space it takes up, expecially when much of it is duplicated elsewhere in the article. The idea of 'six categories' and 'thirteen indices' is an attempt to present the problem in a manner which may be scientifically measurable, but Cotler's assertions are quite vague and could be subject to interpretation.
For example:
It seems that Cotler's main point is that unfair treatment to Israel (inspired by religion, racism or other causes) constitutes anti-semitism. I can't see anything in that enormous table that strays very far from material which could be summarised in two sentences. Any thoughts? illWill 22:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
While I think that the article still needs some work (though it actually flows fairly well), I am not sure why it needs the NPOV tag. I was impressed with the general level of balance here, in explaining both claims and counterclaims without the omnipresent "Some people say...other people believe...some critics assert..." of so many controversal articles. Is there a reason to keep the tag? -- Goodoldpolonius2 03:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Far from being NPOV this particular section ought to be totally disputed. It starts off with a quote from Kofi Annan insisting that the world must not be silent. A reasonable statement related to the topic from an authoritave source. Afterwards it has two long quotes which, to paraphrase, state "The UN is biased against Israel and the only reason can be anti-Semitism". The quoute from Bayefsky, for example, points out a number of human rights abuses and states that Israel is unique in being criticized for it. One could indicate that there are other factors which make Israel unique. For example, to my knowledge China does not have a powerful lobby in the US who attracts the President of the United States as a speaker. Zimbabwe isn't a first world nation recieving billions of dollars a year in aid from the United States. Saudi Arabia wasn't created by a UN resolution. One could point all of this out, and then cut the whole thing and paste it into Israel and the United Nations where it belongs.
To balance the POV of the UN, find some evidence of the UN being anti-Semitic, or turning a blind eye to it. The current content belongs in the aforementioned article regarding Israel. I won't remove it because of the inevitable long running revert war that follows. -- Uncle Bungle 13:28, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Israeli settlers in Gaza, angered over the gaza pullout, have staged numerous rallies and demonstrations to try to gain support in greater Israel. According to The Guardian, the actions of these activists have included having children leaving their houses with their hands up or wearing Star of David badges. These were Nazi practicies, and the settlers are trying to associate the actions of Israel with Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. [33]
To the best of my knowledge no one has outright called this new anti-Semitism as of yet, but the guardian clearly indicates that the intent of the protesters is to draw a comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. This article states that such comparisons are anti-Semitic in the rules of new anti-Semitism. I realize that the rules on original research may apply.
User:Jpgordon reverted my addition and I won't start a revert war, but would instead appriciate some comments. In the meantime I am going to add it to the
gaza pullout article instead.
--
Uncle Bungle 17:30, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Right now, the article contains a stubby mention of Norman Finkelstein. In its entirety, it reads "Norman Finkelstein dedicates the first half of his book Beyond Chutzpah to debunking claims of new anti-Semitism, arguing that it simply provides political cover to supporters of Israel. He notes that Jewish leaders consistently claim there is a new wave of anti-Semitism on the basis of what he considers scanty evidence every couple decades."
Given that Finkelstein is a very controversial figure—in the proper sense of controversial, I'm not using that as a euphemism—a passing mention of him like this probably does not serve our readers very well. This should either be fleshed out or removed. (It also could be worded better, I guess I'll go do that, but I haven't read the book in question, so I'm in no position to flesh it out.) -- Jmabel | Talk 06:37, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Is Noam Chomsky really "Jewish," as is claimed in the article? My understanding is that he was born Jewish but is now atheist (or at least secular). Does anyone know for sure? -- zenohockey 00:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph was deleted (corrected here):
In my view it is important to point out where the rejection of criticism of the concept of "New Anti-Semitism" comes from. -- Vít Zvánovec 18:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't insist that this paragraph has to placed here. Please, advice me another good place, because that text is very important. Thank you. -- Vít Zvánovec 08:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Aha, I didn't know that. Maybe it would be satisfactory to put this into Self-hating Jew. In my view Wikiquote is not enough, WP is needed. -- Vít Zvánovec 18:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Moved to Self-hating Jew. -- Vít Zvánovec 19:16, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
For reference's sake, can I get the name of "all monitoring agencies" according to whom "there has been a resurgence in anti-Semitism."
Ah, what's the point... There is very little hope for this article anyway. -- Diderot 22:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is there no hope for this article? Pintele Yid 06:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Which of those reports asserts that there is a "resurgence of [...] acceptance of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse", as I have seen precious little of it in the mainstream press. But the point rather, is that I dispute that there are enough years of data to state that there is a trend. EUMC's report covers all of two years of data, three years in the past.
I also claim that the new anti-Semitism is significant only within a context of international disputes over Israeli policy and its effects, and I challenge you to find a single published piece - an editorial or magazine article - on the new anti-Semitism that does not discuss the notion that some criticism of Israel is covert anti-Semitism. This point deserves to be in the first para, because otherwise I should think the response to anti-Semitic incidents is "[o]ut of any proportion to the size of the conflict, whether measured in number of individuals affected, the size of the territory in dispute, or by the magnitude of alleged transgressions".
I also dispute the title of the second section ("The nature of the new anti-Semitism ") and its tone, as it assume that which it ought to set out to prove. You must marshall arguments that there is a "new" anti-semitism by first setting out what is new about it, rather than describing it as you imagine it to be.
As for further disputes. I dispute every sentence that contains a passive verb, a weasel word or a non-specific allegation, as well as several sections of dubious logical coherency. The proliferation of such usages makes this article as it stands garbage.
But this is the totally disputed section, where it's not just bad writing that's the problem:
I am too tired right now to go through the rest of the page. My hopelessness, and the totallydisputed tag, stem from the poor sourcing, the inconsistent argumentation, and also the circular logic of assuming what you wish to prove, in an article that is about an idea and what impact its having. This is an intrinsically controversial topic, which means it has to be far better sourced. So many weasel words and passive sentences... quite honestly, it's shameful. -- Diderot 03:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Rama, I removed the images, in part because they don't seem to show anything, and also because I couldn't understand the text, or the relevance. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Jajyg: Recently, in London, I've witnessed the following phenomenon: some pro-Palestinian group sets up a booth denouncing Israel in some street, and a few dozen meters away a pro-Israeli group sets up a booth denouncing the Palestinians and "New Antisemitism". Rama apparently witnessed the same kind of action in Lausanne. I suspect that this is relatively common that one party protests somewhere and the other party decides to do a counter-protest nearby.
So I think this is interesting to give concrete examples of people protesting "New Antisemitism" in the streets, so that it doesn't stay some kind of abstract notion. I'll give you another example: I'm striving to find free photographs for the street protests French presidential election, 2002 because all we currently have are just dry counts of hundreds of thousands of people, which, I think, somehow fail to fully convey the event. Similarly, to go back to anti-semitism, we have pictures from the Nazi death camps, whereas most of the people depicted are non-notable and the horrific fate they faced is described in the text (so the picture does not really convey a lot of information). What do you think? David.Monniaux 11:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I dunno, they are fine pictures and all, but I don't see them illustrating any of the concepts in the article about new anti-Semitism -- I wouldn't expect to see these pictures in an encyclopedia article on the topic, either. Correct me if I am wrong, but the people aren't notable, the protest is not notable, and I can't really see the connection here. Rama, they are nice photos, but I don't see them adding anything to the article that is informational in nature. -- Goodoldpolonius2 05:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Just a little note. I'm taking no position whether to keep or remove the photos. However, I cannot help noticing that some people here, such as User:Jayjg, keep on demanding proofs or justifications of certain things about the subject of the photos. Apparently, User:Rama was there and had a discussion with them, so he probably knows their slogans and their political position. I think we should assume good faith in that respect — I don't think that Rama is a dodgy character, and have never heard of him posting images and adding captions that do not correspond to what the images depict. David.Monniaux 17:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
If there are no more question, I think that we might consider restoring the images by now. Rama 06:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I do not accuse you of anything, I am just very surprised that these images, which have been proved to be illustration of actual complains about "New Antisemitism", should not be used, apparently on the grounds that they do no illustrate a pre-conception of what "New Antisemitism" should be. It sort of strikes me as ajusting facts around a definition rather than the converse. Note that I cannot see what is "New Antisemit" in the images you show; this is political criticism toward Israel, this is regular antisemitism and this is normal antisemitism as well. Rama 15:07, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Confusion ? I have not noticed much confusion on this respect, rather dispute that they display the face of "new antisemitism" that some would like to focus on. Rama 07:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Since no-one has mentioned it that I can spot, the cartoon attributed to Latuff is a bit odd. Run a search for "Latuff" on google-images and the one on this page is the only example I have found where the style of mixing photo with drawing is used, leading me to suspect. The text style in the speach bubble is not typical either. Less clear cut is my view that the words do not follow Latuff's style. Overall, I believe that this cartoon has been mis-attributed. 80.6.104.41 21:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)Mr Smin.
The cartoon is Anti-Semetic not because it criticizes Sharon, but because it depicts the jews as being bloodthirsty jerks that enjoy watching Palestinian children die. The Bush cartoon doesnt have anything about enjoying killing kids.
I feel that the debate on this item is largely over. The codification of antisemitism by Europe to include activity aimed at Israel when it meets certain criteria proves sufficiently (in law) that some forms of anti-Israel / anti-Zionist activity are antisemitic. What it does not prove is that ALL critisisms of Israel are anti-semitic - but then this article doesn't claim that. While interesting the comments from detractors do not add (or remove) anything from the content of the article, they simply say that sometimes critisism is legitimate. That's fine, and sometimes sheep are black. This whole section in my opinion is now only of historical usefulness. To dispute the existance of what this article describes as "New Antisemitism" is now to disagree with the law, and with facts on the ground. - I've removed the disputed tag as a result. This article was not disputed, it was dated. Oboler 20:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)That's insane! "anti Americanism smacks of fascism and "anti Zionism" is an equally fascist notion. The idea that if your Jewish you're by fact of being so the target of a criticism of Israel is ludicrous and slanderous against many Semetic and less Semetic critics of Israel. I suppose Noam Chomskey's one of your new "anti Semetic" (ie non Zionist imperialist) brigade? Mensch2006 08:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I made several edits on 25 December 2005. These were purely for better reading and I tried hard to be both clear and precise, and maintain NPOV. In particular, I think that the wordiness of one of the opening paragraphs ('locus' and 'pretexts' are words that are meaningless to the average reader) was unnecessarily confusing.
Also, please remember that links should only be used where relevant to the content. I don't think it helps to link words like criticism. Brw12 06:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone put 'pretexts' and 'locus' back. These are simply beyond the scope of the average English reader's vocabulary. I replaced them with simpler synonyms ("professed purpose" and "place"). Please, people, if a legit edit is made, and you want to reverse it, explain yourself in the talk pages! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brw12 ( talk • contribs) 10 Feb 2006.
I would like those who argue that it is not antisemitic to deny Israel's right to exist to please certify for the record that one can argue that Egypt, Norway, Spain, Mexico, and any number of nation-states should be dismantled without causing offense to Egyptians, Norwegians, Spaniards, or Norwegians. Otherwise, it is patently apparent that denying Israel's right to exist is antisemitic. -- Leifern 20:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
It's actually a useful question, although not in this context. Leifern could perhaps ask himself whether it would be "antinorgist" to complain if Norway sent tanks into Sami villages or excluded the Sami people from its polity? James James 05:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I object to drawing up these analogies about other countries on the basis that it implicitly equalizes Israel with Judaism. The only way that these analogies would be applicable would be if we are asking whether denying Israel's right to exist is anti-Israeli rather than anti-semitic. An important difference. -- Dissident ( Talk) 00:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
To Leifern and others: Simply put, I am a Jew and I don't think any country that gives one group legal status over others is a very good idea, even if I am one of the beneficiaries. I would like to see the legal entity of Israel cease to exist and a non-ethnic-nationalist state with true pluralism take its place. Can I feel this only if I am secretly prejudiced against my own people?
Do you really think that the only reason someone could, say, oppose the idea of forming a Gypsy state, would be prejudice against the Gypsies? Do you really think that the only reason a Native American could criticize the right of the US to exist would be prejudice against white Americans?
The point is, there is more than one reasonable position on the matter. Brw12 13:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that the comparison between israeli-flag-burning is against jews generally. There are also Arabs and Christians who feel israelian, and a critique against the (-harsh!-) policy of Israel against Palestinians in the last years shouldn't be judged as antisemitic, nor of course be an excuse for "real" antisemitists. But telling that antisemitism is a sad caracteristic of France is a dumb cliché, and everyone who's ever lived in France will agree with me! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.76.9.36 ( talk • contribs) 20 Feb 2006.
Re: the poster at New anti-Semitism#Incidents in the United States. I actually hadn't noticed this before; I noticed it now because no one had bothered putting a license tag on the image; I've labeled it as {{ politicalposter}}. Sure strikes me as a variant on blood libel against Jews, especially the reference to "slaughtered according to Jewish Rites", suggesting that child-murder is a religious matter. Would it be legitimate to say as much in the article, or would that cross the line of original research? -- Jmabel | Talk 11:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe not, but I think it would be better to find a source that has noted it rather than point out the obvious. If no one ever has pointed it out, then it's OR to do so. I say this only as a matter of correctness so far as policy's concerned. It's as clear a case of the blood libel as you could wish to see (or not wish to see, if you know what I mean). James James 11:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is the president of the student union discussing action taken against what he describes as the section of the flier "suggesting the ancient 'blood libel'". Is The Forward acceptable? I'm not familiar enough with American newspapers to know whether this is a serious paper, but it seems to be one. In my view, sourcing to either would be okay. Other views? James James 00:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I have done quite a lot of work on this section and I hope it is now improved both from NPOV and references point of view. However, I do have a POV on these matters (especially relating to AUT) and so I hope other will take a look at what I've done and check that my POV has not unduly influenced what I've done.-- NHSavage 17:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Although I agree with SlimVirgin that accusations of anti-Semitism directed at the left are new, the article's examples of anti-Semitism are not primarily leftist denunciations of anti-Zionism, but rather a mixed bag of contemporary anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Consequently, I think that the introductory passages should match the article's content. The alternatives would be to clarify the introduction, so that the reader is clearer that we are talking about all kinds of accusations of contemporary anti-Semitism, or to remove from the article the "old" anti-Semitism, which is not perpetrated by the left. James James 00:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Woah! Have I made a mistake! I see an article that in several places describes anti-Semitic incidents, mostly of the old school, but in its introduction says that the charge of "new anti-Semitism" is primarily aimed at leftists. I didn't realise leftists were doing all the "verbal abuse, vandalism, desecration of property, abusive literature, threats and physical violence" reported by the Community Security Trust. I thought that was the same old people who've been doing it for a couple of thousand years. I didn't realise that the radical Islamists in France were leftists either. Nor that leftists had started accusing Jews of eating Christian babies. The sources that I found didn't say anything like that, but presumably, Viriditas's "research" has found something different. Naturally I won't revert this article again, and I'm taking it from my watchlist. James James 01:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
We need sources for all of these:
Here the anonymous "critics" are not speaking for themselves, but serving up strawman arguments for the wikipedia editors to shoot down. For each statement attributed to "critics" there should be some indication of which specific critic is speaking and that these are the terms the "critic" prefers to use. If, as I expect, these statements supposedly from "critics of the idea of a new anti-Semitism" cannot each be specifically sourced, they should be removed. If they will not be removed, they should be replaced with stronger arguments. TopRank 04:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The article currently bears the {{ totallydisputed}} tag - who is disputing what? The tag has been there since October and if there is no dispute, then it should be removed. Izehar 10:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I've done my best to clean up the citations on this page into a reasonably uniform style. This added a lot of information, because title and author information was missing before for nearly all online citations. There were a few dead links. For some of these I could easily find appropriate substitutes. I'm afraid the Internet Archive was no use, possibly because some of these were too recent to be up there yet, or possibly because they aren't going to be archived. Without anything but a blind link, it was pretty hard to identify appropriate substitute citations.
Currently,
BTW, this new footnoting system is definitely a simplifier. I recommend it. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the characterization of Chomsky as an anarchist. His politics are more relevant here than his being a linguist (though I did not remove the fact that he is a linguist). If there was question whether Chomsky considers himself an anarchist (the terse edit summary suggests someone may have doubted this), I assume that the following will be more than adequate citation: [43] [44] [45] [46]. That's all from the website of Z magazine, to which he is an important contributor. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Those who describe Chomsky as Jewish are trying to increase the credibility of this holocust denier - since it is well known that many of the worst anti-semites are Jewish (cf. Adam Shapiro), any reference to Chomsky's "jewishness" is irrelevent and should be deleted. Incorrect 17:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
One of the made administrators has just deleted my edit regarding Chomsky being of Jewish origin. Interestingly, the sites in the article itself to Chomsky do not refer to his Jewishnes (sic) at all, merely refer to the definitins of "Jews". Another example of wikipedia being gamed by those with a pov. Incorrect 18:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I've restored Unbehagen's deletion that Islamic stores in the UK are increasingly stocking anti-Semitic material, including Mein Kampf. Unbehagen argues that, as this book is available in many large bookstores in the UK, its availability in Islamic stores is not surprising. However, there are no large Islamic stores in the UK selling books; those that do are very small and focus on material relevant to Islam. It's therefore notable that increasing numbers of them appear to believe that Mein Kampf has such relevance. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Notice the grammar mistake in the anti-Semitic cartoon:"Sharon will allows you..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bombshell ( talk • contribs) 21 Feb 2006.
I added a few tags for where citation is neede. This article lacks sources in a major way and in the same time it make sweeping arguments. Clean up is badly needed. // Liftarn 09:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I have added an external link to a very recent and equally insightful article on the New Anti-Semitism by the renowned British historian Bernard Lewis. Enjoy. Pecher Talk 22:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
For more examples of New Anti-Semitism, follow the repeated attemps of some Wikipedians to re-introduce the racist use of the word "Aryan" into Wikipedia. Follow the discussions here and see examples on the following articles: Persian people, Tajik people, Iranian peoples, Aryan, and Indo-Iranians. Your help would be appreciated. Aucaman Talk 03:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The "repeated attempts of some Wikipedians" to re-introduce the use of the word "Aryan" have very little to do with Anti-Semitism, and a lot to do with the increase in Indian and Iranian contributors, for whom the word labels an important aspect of their culture. Many of them, especially Indians, resent the association of the word with Nazism and wish to emphasise their "ownership" of it (to a lesser extent the same applies to the swastika). They also resent having to apologise for words and symbols used in their culture just because some people thousands miles away used them once for their own purposes. These users rarely have racist intentions in my experience, though they can sometimes be highly nationalistic. The Nazi use of the term Aryan was certainly anti-Semitic, because it functioned as a synonym for "non-Jew", but strictly speaking the specifically racist aspects of Nazism concerned their claims for the superiority of the Nordic race. Yet no-one gets worried about the use of the word "Nordic" on Wikpedia. Paul B 19:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
On February 18, 2006, User:Liftarn inserted no fewer than 19 {{fact}} requests for citation into the article. [47] In the majority of cases, the sentences in question were immediately preceded or followed by direct citations. In a small minority of cases the citations were in linked articles, or in were websites which had gone bad. In one case he inserted 3 requests for citation inside a direct quote from a source, and in another he actually added his own POV into a direct quotation! This is a gross abuse of the template and the editing process. Jayjg (talk) 06:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Liftarn
I've removed this quote from the "state of the controversy#examples cited" section:
This was added by Liftarn on January 12. [51] Apart from the fact that it's an undergraduate writing in a student newspaper, which makes it an inappropriate source, if you read the article, you'll see that it in fact says exactly the opposite of the impression given by the quote, namely that a lot of the anti-Zionism the writer encounters on campus boils down to "bigotry" and "fanaticism."
When selecting quotes, it's important to stay true to the original tone and intent of the piece. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the following from the page because it need one or more sources:
I'd be surprised if any reputable scholar in a relevant field were to argue that Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism is "strictly an epiphenomenon" of the Arab-Israeli conflict, given the anti-Semitism that predated the State of Israel. Bernard Lewis has pointed out that some leaders in the Muslim world are almost at pains to point out that they're anti-Semitic, not just anti-Israel, as a matter of national or personal pride. For example, after President Khatami of Iran denied that his govt was anti-Semitic, a newspaper known to express the views of Khamenei appeared to correct him, saying it was important not to exaggerate the difference between the Jews and the Zionist regime because: "[t]he history of the beginnings of Islam is full of Jewish plots against the Prophet Muhammad and of murderous attacks by Jews ..." Lewis also cites the daughter of President Nasser, who complained about a film portraying her father as anti-Zionist but not anti-Semitic. Lewis writes (quoting a newspaper article about the incident): "she objected to a passage in [the] film indicating that 'Nasser was not against the Jews, but against Zionism, because she wanted to portray her father as a hero of the anti-Jewish struggle'." (Lewis in Those who forget the past by Ron Rosenbaum (ed)) It could still be argued that, although it's clearly anti-Semitism and not just opposition to the govt of Israel, it's still only an outgrowth of the latter, but it's a difficult position to maintain, so it'd be good to attribute it. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:33, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone interested in writing on the question of why Ariel Sharon is held responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre, but Elie Hobeika, who actually ordered the killings, was not. My understanding is that Hobeika was well-received in various European capitals where Sharon is persona non grata. This seems to be support the argument that anti-Zionism relies on double-standards with respect to human rights.
Adam Holland 18:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
IDENTIFICATION OF ANTISEMITIC STATEMENTS AS "JEWS"
Some who edit consider it important that those attacking Jews be called "Jews," as if a person of Jewish origin is incapable of being anti semitic or anti Jewish. It is clear that many of Jewish ancestry are among the most vehement anti semites, cf. Adam Shapiro; it therefor adds nothing to an anti semites credibility to label him/her as Jewish - such identification should be deleted, or, as I have done, indicated that the person is of Jewish heritage but does not follow the Jewish faith nor identify with the Jewish people. Incorrect 17:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
While I wouldn't claim this article as a model of NPOV (there is a bit of a bias, in that once one is past the lead section, the exposition of claims of a "New anti-Semitism" runs so long as to place the opposite arguments awfully far down the article), but it seems to me that at this point it is a fairly good job for such an inherently controversial subject. I would hope that we are in a position to soon get the NPOV label off of the article. I would appreciate if those who feel it still belongs there could make it clear exactly what about the article they feel still merits the label. Bullet lists rather than essays, please. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:23, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
This needs clarification. There is no introduction to this subsection which explains who or what is to be falsely alleged and how that relates to anti-Semitism. Please include some criteria for inclusion so that readers can understand why the material which follows is relevant.
Thanks -- Uncle Bungle 13:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Jayjg for clarification. Is there proof then that Terje Roed-Larsen made the claim of atrocities in Jenin "with the intent of stirring up hatred"? -- Uncle Bungle 16:20, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You have stated that the section is about "false allegations made about Israel and Jews, with the intent of stirring up hatred against them". So if you can't prove that Terje Roed-Larsen made those claims with the intent of stirring up hatred, it has no business in the section. The media makes huge mistakes and trumps up shaky reports ALL THE TIME without any specific racial bias. That, sir, is why proof is relevant. -- Uncle Bungle 18:08, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
No original research in this question about a neologism. If the story about Jenin was infact to incite anti-Semitism, then that should be easy to substantiate with reference to commonly accepted reference texts. Seriously, its just as likely that the whole thing was a media error, not racism, and thats why unless it can be proven to be racism, it has to go. -- Uncle Bungle 18:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am looking for some clarification on the idea that is it anti-Semetic to equate Jews with Nazis. Is this every time without exception? After all the Stern Gang and Baruch Goldstein were all Jewish.
The Nazi regime was clearly guilty of some unspeakable acts. From invading their neighbours and persuing weapons of mass destruction to confiscating poperty, imprisoning dissidents, separing people from their families and business, and yes, even murdering children. If the actions of an individual or an organization are so extreme as to remind one of the Nazis, should not that individual or organizations behaviour supercede their ethnic or religous background?
Throughout the second world war the Nazis murdered over twenty five million Russians (combined civilian and combatant). When Niall Ferguson compared Putin with Hiter [1] could his statements not also be called racist?
Please consider the following:
Although the quote of Chomsky is correct, Chomsky's quote appears to be incorrect. He refers to Necessary Illusions where this passage occurs on p 317:
The note (117) gives references as follows: Judis, In These Times, Sept. 28; New Republic, Oct. 3, 1988. See David Corn, Nation, Oct. 24, 1988, for more on the "haven" for "anti-Semites and fascist sympathizers" in the Republican party. Also Holly Sklar, Z Magazine, Nov. 1988; Charles Allen, Village Voice, Nov. 1, 1988. On the downplaying of the story by the New York Times, see FAIR, Extra!, Sept./Oct. 1988.
In the New Republic , Oct 3, there was a very short (1 page, 1 column) piece called "Anti-Semitism, Left and Right" (page 9). But this article only contains the second and third quotes given by Chomsky. The first and fourth quotes don't occur at all. It refers to "old-fashioned right-wing anti-Semites" ("seven aging Eastern European fascists in the Republican apparatus") and "the anti-Semitism of native-born bigots on the right". It subsequently refers to this kind of anti-Semitism as "rather abstract and altogether without an agenda". The "salient anti-Semitism" of the left, on the other hand, is described as dangerous because it has an agenda. One tenet is "the delegimitization of the Jewish national movement".
There is no reference to the two-state resolution at all. Chomsky's description seems to be tendentious and inaccurate. ( Denis Diderot 17 March 2005)
When Neumann's criticism in Counterpunch is discussed, shouldn't his subsequent email exchange with the "Jewish Tribal Review" be mentioned?. Here are some quotes attributed to Neumann:
"I'm not quite sure whether you guys are antisemtic in the 'bad' sense or not"
"I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable antisemitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious racist antisemitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care. "
"My messages were not thought out with the deliberation I would take in making public pronouncements, and there is absolutely no question but that Zionists could twist them and misuse them."
When the exchange was published against his will at www.jewishtribalreview.org/neumann2.htm, Neumann's judgment was questioned
Neumann's defence is here
(unsigned, anonymous, 18 March 2005)
I don't think these particular e-mail quotes, which I believe have been taken out of context and incorrectly interpreted, are really relevant to this particular article. This article is about the claimed phenomenon "new anti-Semitism". Neumann's arguments against some of the claims made in favor of it are include as part of the counter balance those in favor . It is not about Neumann or anyone else quoted in the article. A separate article on Neumann would might be an appropriate place for the controversy over his e-mail to the Jewish Tribal Review. They do not make any argument for or against the points he makes in the Counterpunch article, they appear to be taken out of context and thus I don't see this as the place for them. Exactly what he meant by them is debatable and their inclusion would come across to me as a sort of adhominum argument to try to discredit the him and thus in turn the argument he makes in the counterpunch article by claiming these quotes prove him to be an anti-Semite/self-hating Jew and thus invalidating his arguments which it wouldn't even if were true. -- Cab88
Without passing judgment on the merits of this section, its recent placement in the article as a level-2 header, subordinating several unrelated sections that follow, is clearly wrong. Would someone please work out where they meant to put this in the article, or if it's just the header level that's wrong, or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Christiaan, please note that arguments for one side are not supposed to be turned into arguments for the other side; this violates NPOV. Each side must be allowed to make its argument. Also, the organizations in question fight anti-Semitism, if you can find widely accepted views that say they do not, then you can question it, not until then. Jayjg (talk) 19:18, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, I see you reverted my edit which changed Accusations of bigotry effectively inhibit debate by demonizing one party to the debate to Accusations of anti-Semitism can and are used in an attempt to discredit and demonise those who criticise Israeli actions, which is more accurate. Why did you revert this? — Christiaan 20:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I remember when I was reasonably young and I was hearing a lot about Israel and Palestine on the telly. At the time I remember thinking to myself that both peoples were as bad as each other; always attacking and counter-attacking. As a young ignorant mind this is how it appeared to me through my television anyway. Eventually I took just a cursory look at the situation away from my television and what struck me was the overwhelming injustice that had been dealt to the Palestinian people. After that I remember debating the situation with someone and being called anti-Semitic for my troubles. What was most interesting is that I didn't even really know what a Jew was, or even what really happened in the Nazi Holocaust, such is my ability to have large gaps of knowledge. So I was looking at the situation with truly fresh eyes for what it was. Alas not any more. To this day I remember that and realise how easy and unjust it is to demonise one's opponent simply by labelling them. Never since have I ever been able to articulate my views as an anti-Zionist without being accused of anti-Semitism. And for writing that last sentence I am by definition of this article an anti-Semite.— Christiaan 19:48, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You have rather missed the point. Try asking someone else to explain it to you. Chamaeleon 12:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to know how my comment about you could inadvertently cause anti-Semitism. I wrote: "Oppose. He seems not to have understood Wikipedia:Neutral point of view or Wikipedia:No original research, and takes POV-pushing to extremes. He wrote today that: "I have never seen a statement from the ADL ( Anti-Defamation League) condemning anti-Semitism, only ones condemning leftists," which is absurd. [2] I'm also opposing because of his combative responses to other oppose votes. People should be allowed to vote as they see fit without being challenged by the nominee. And I'm not keen on his sour-grapes-in-advance comment underneath his nomination."
Would you care to explain how that leads to anti-Semitism, and what you mean by "the likes of Jayjg and SlimVirgin"? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:35, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't tell me what you meant, nor how what I said leads to anti-Semitism. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:02, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Can we have some sources for "new anti-Semites argue that Jews view all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic"? — Christiaan 20:34, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(de-indenting) Here's more of the code, from one of the links above.: "Jews relate to anti-semitic conspiracy every criticism of Israel." Jayjg (talk) 22:15, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The argument Christiaan seems to be making is that a number of the examples cited by Jayjg seems to be refering to Zionists not simply Jews in general. Since not all Jews are Zionists then the examples do not equate to saying all jews view critisism of Israel as anti-Semitic but rather all Ziionist view critisism of Israel as anti-Semitic. Thus the straw-man argument is really about Zionist not simply jews in general. At least that how I read the his argument. -- Cab88 23:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That is how the term is, as a matter of fact, used, Christiaan; it is not simply an intention. I have supplied three more articles showing that. You're not allowed to remove edits that are properly referenced to credible publications. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:44, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that Christiaan's version less POV. Anti-semitism is hurled about as a " power word", with the intent to defame and silence anyone critical of Israeli policy or things jewish. "new" anti-semitism is a neologism for cases where it is especially hard to make the case for anti-semitism, and so even the slanderers feel a need for a new term so as to preserve credibility. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 00:49, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See Sapir Worf, words are powerful. If I hear the word "rapist" or "racist" or whatever, I tend to dislike those it is used against psychologically, before I have a chance to know all the details. Many people no longer want to hear all the details once someone is labeled anti-semitic, they already have there mind made up as soon as the power word is dropped. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 10:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The charge of new anti-Semitism is meant to apply to all groups that express unreasonable hostility toward Israel; to the extent that the left-wing tends to level condemnation and perceived unfair criticism against Israel, they are accused of promoting new anti-Semitism.
This passage needs a serious look at I think. It reads as if to conflate the "expression of unreasonable hostility toward Israel" with the "left-wing". — Christiaan 01:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From the article "Today, the number of anti-Zionist Jewish groups worldwide is small." True enough, if Zionism is taken to mean merely believing in the right of the State of Isreal to exist, but the number of Jewish groups opposed to the policies of the Israeli government is far larger. The term Zionism is much more problematic than when there was no state of Israel. At this point, it tends to be associated with a certain maximalist Israeli agenda, not with those who feel that the proper goals of Zionism have already been achieved, and that present Israeli policies excede what is appropriate.
For example, Yesh G'vul and Brit Tzedek v'Shalom are both, in some sense, Zionist, but they are constantly subject to attacks from the Israeli right and its supporters as "self-hating Jews" for what is perceived to be an insufficiently zealous Zionism. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:24, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
"to the extent that the left-wing tends to level condemnation and unfair criticism against Israel, they are accused of promoting new anti-Semitism." This is a matter of proper English usage and logic. The qualifier "to the extent that" states the premise adequately; the logic is that if it's unfair criticism, then it's considered antisemitism. You can argue that the logic is faulty, but this is merely meant to outline what it is. -- Leifern 21:35, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)
Jayjg's last edit summary: to the extent that they do they, they are *accused* of promoting it. Note, *accused*. Not a statement that they actually do so, but the accusation by those who say there is a New anti-Semitism.
Accused is only the second part of the sentence. The first part says "to the extent" and "to the extent" that they do presupposes that there is an extent that they do. And now, no doubt, you're you're going back to your "proponents must be able to state their case" argument. This is not stating the case of the proponents from a neutral stand point. It's stating the proponents case as factually true; that there is an extent to which the left levels unfair criticism at Israel. Do none of you see this??? — Christiaan 22:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The charge of new anti-Semitism is meant to apply to all groups that express unreasonable hostility toward Israel; to the extent that the left-wing levels unfair condemnation and criticism of Israel, they are accused of promoting new anti-Semitism.
There is some ambiguity in this paragraph that I'm having trouble understanding. First, is the second part of the sentence saying something different than the first part, or is it just further explaining the first part. The first part talks about charges meant to apply to "all groups" and the second part talks about the "left-wing". Who is the left-wing exactly and what's different about the left-wing from "all groups"? I find the whole sentence very confusing. -- MPerel( talk | contrib) 23:30, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
We currently have a sentence in the lead section, "The Left in particular is accused of promoting new anti-Semitism in the form of unfair criticism and condemnation of Israel." I guess my main problem is with "The Left in particular..." What could be less particular? Surely the claim is not that all socialists, left-liberals, etc., even those who are Jews, even those who are Israelis, are promoting anti-Semitism. But that's what this says. I'm not sure exactly what it means to say, but could whoever wrote this take a shot at rewriting it to say what they actually mean? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
BTW: I think we should some how incorperate Post-September_11_anti-war_movement#Allegations_of_anti-Americanism_and_anti-Semitism_within_the_European_anti-war_movement in this article as well (maybe as a link with short para descripition and maybe in just copy it under section such as "Left wing and antisemitism" and rewrite the first few sentences). MathKnight 08:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the sentence is intended to indicate that the New anti-Semitism is considered to be more prevalent in left-wing groups, as opposed to the "old anti-Semitism", which was promulgated by right-wing (often fascist) groups. Jayjg (talk) 13:37, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Just curious, is the image in this article (FrenchCemetery103004-01.jpg) an example of "New" anti-semitism or the old anti-semitism since neonazis are on the Right of the political spectrum, and the defacement doesn't have much to do with unfair criticism of Israel? I'm thinking it would be more appropriate in the Anti-semitism article. -- MPerel( talk | contrib) 19:28, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
Is this image is better? It is a graphic work taken from Indymedia. MathKnight 19:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is Jonathan Sachs:
the new antisemitism—and it is new—is a global phenomenon conveyed by Internet, e-mail, television and video, and we do not yet know how the new communications media will affect its spread. --- It is coming simultaneously from three different directions: first, a radicalized Islamist youth inflamed by extremist rhetoric; second, a left-wing anti-American cognitive élite with strong representation in the European media; third, a resurgent far right, as anti-Muslim as it is anti-Jewish. [12]
Benyamin Netanyahu:
The past two years have witnessed a recrudescence of antisemitism in Western Europe the likes of which have not been seen since the end of World War II. Synagogues, schools and other Jewish buildings have been torched and Jews have been subjected to physical and verbal abuse. While most of these acts have been the work of Muslims, it is the European elites who have created an ambience in which antisemitism is no longer considered unacceptable in "polite company". --- Future historians may yet call this "new antisemitism" (the term coined to describe what has been happening in Europe in the last 2 and a half years, since the Palestinians abandoned diplomacy for violence) a watershed in the long gloomy history of Jew-hatred on the European continent. Today, more than five decades after French police rounded up Jews on the streets of Paris for deportation to the East, no Jew with a kippah on his head feels secure walking the streets of any city or town in Europe. [13]
Denis Diderot 21:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please don't remove the image for no reason. I've put it back. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:04, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
From the article (arguments made by opponents to the thesis): "Criticizing or even condemning a state's actions is simply a matter of conscience, and no state is exempt from accountability for its action."
The first part of this seems problematic to me. I'm not sure exactly what it means to say. Clearly criticism of a state's actions can be a matter of conscience, but this seems to say that it is inherently so. In any case, it seems to me that the whole thing would be stronger if we just said, "No state is exempt from accountability for its action". If the rest of this can be said coherently, it probably belongs as a separate item preceding that.
BTW, while I agree that we have a basically accurate summation of the arguments agains the "new anti-Semitism" thesis, do we have citations for any of these arguments? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:01, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Any comments on the proposal to change the current name of the article from "New anti-Semitism" to "Neo anti-Semitism", and direct this page to it. Grammatically, "Neo" is correct, "New" just makes it sound like it really is new and not a modern variant based on previous concepts.
I know it's not nice to compare, but it is for this very same gramatical reasoning that we say "Neo Nazism" not "New Nazism". Also note the very different meaning of "New Nazi" (someon who recently joined the original nazi party) and "Neo Nazi" (not a member of the actual Nazi party, but a member of a modern variant). Al-Andalus 05:17, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC).
In the section New anti-Semitism#Examples cited, the Friedman quote is part of the bullet point about straw-man attacks, but seems to have nothing to do with that topic. I agree that the quote belongs in the article, but not with its placement. I'd have no problem with just inserting a newline before it (that is, taking it outside of the bullet list) but wondered if anyone else has a better idea. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:40, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
What I particularly like about this article is the supreme irony of quoting Dershowitz saying that no Jewish leader has claimed criticism of Israel is dismissed as "antisemitism". He is too modest and, as is appropriate for a lawyer, very careful. I don't think Jewish leaders have ever suggested that criticisms of "particular policies" are driven by antisemitism. It would be nonsense to say: "You criticised the 'security barrier' because you hate Jews" -- transparently dumb. But in a broader sense, this is exactly what is done. In this article Dershowitz makes the accusation he very often does, that antisemitism is a "factor" in attacking Israel's policies. IOW, he does exactly what is being described as a straw man.
I couldn't find in this article any mention of Norman Finkelstein, who levels precisely this charge (among others) at Dershowitz. Finkelstein suggests that the "new anti-Semitism" is fabricated. A balanced article would have referenced him.
I have no interest in editing this article whatsoever. I'll leave that to editors who are more closely interested in this subject than I am. I'm not watching it either, so any comments to my talk page, please.
I want to make absolutely clear that I do not agree with all of Finkelstein's positions, particularly where the Holocaust is concerned, nor do I disagree with all of Dershowitz's. It would be just too ironic to be accused of anti-Semitism on the page about anti-Semitism. I'm asking for balance, not anti-anything-ism. Grace Note 02:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The following was the subject of dispute:
…the new antisemitism—and it is new—is a global phenomenon conveyed by Internet, e-mail, television and video, and we do not yet know how the new communications media will affect its spread. … It is coming simultaneously from three different directions: first, a radicalized Islamist youth inflamed by extremist rhetoric; second, a left-wing anti-American cognitive élite with strong representation in the European media; third, a resurgent far right, as anti-Muslim as it is anti-Jewish. [14]
Opponents of the term generally acknowledge that the "old" anti-Semites have opportunistically latched onto aspects of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and that Arab anti-Zionism has led to a growth of anti-Jewish as well as anti-Israeli sentiment in the Arab world, but argue that claims of a "new" anti-Semitism have largely, or even primarily, been used as a tactic to stifle what these opponents of the term see as legitimate criticism of Israel. Many have questioned the linkage between anti-Semitism and opposition to Israel.
SV| t| add 03:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't follow. This is a quotation from the current Chief Rabbi of the UK. Is someone disputing that Sacks said this, that it belongs in the article or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I know that we live not a hundred years ago but today; at the same time, I hold that we can't neglect to delve under the surface. In particular, what are the motivations of the anti-Zionists, and why do we Jews, or most of us Jews, equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism?
Yes, it isn't our job to untangle their motivations, much less to state them. But we have to remember, and note, that a great deal of the anti-Zionists in the West have nothing to do with Israel at all. A student is rejected from a British University because he was in the Israeli Army! Now, it's difficult to withhold judgment, isn't it?
To what you've written about anti-Zionism I can suggest adding only the analysis by which we Jews conclude that anti-Zionists are anti-Semites. Of course, the answering analysis is, stop with the conspiracy theories! That's very difficult to argue without appearing out of your mind. But note that not all of us who conduct the former analysis make conspiracy theories. -- VKokielov 05:03, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article opening is way too long and rambling. Paragraph-length quotes really don't belong here. They should be placed further down in the article. LevelCheck 18:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The following recently added paragraph is, at best, marginally coherent, and seems rather POV: what the heck are "modern Jewish eyes"? And why should the narrative voice of the article say, "'Statements of principle' from the side have always been considered bad manners in diplomacy…"?
I'd be inclined to just remove, but this is obviously a contentious article, so what do others think about the paragraph? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:33, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
There are far too many external links in this article. We should only be using the most relevant ones, or at least references to content in the article. If footnotes have to be used, either hidden or explicit, that may solve the problem. -- Viriditas | Talk 02:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like to add and clarify content in this article using Pierre-Andre Taguieff's book. If anyone has any information about the author, that would be great. -- Viriditas | Talk 02:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have cut the following highly POV paragraph:
Let's make it easy on ourselves: WP:3O -- VKokielov 20:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I ask for a third opinion because we're not going to come to a consensus by talking. We are looking at each other from different sides of a gorge. It'll save us both a lot of headache if we can involve someone else, someone neutral...Am I wrong? -- VKokielov 20:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wipe my hands clean of this article - I renounce my right to say anything on the question - so that I can answer you here. This is how I answer: if there were no general Jewish opinion, there would be no Jews after all this time. Remember that. The Jews are notorious for their ability to put aside their differences at the slightest provocation, at the slightest sign of danger. They talk of civil war in Israel now? When I raised the question to (another) Jew I trust very much, he told me to wait and see how it never comes to that. And, whatever I suspect or wonder, I know why he's saying what he says. If it comes to civil war, then we Jews are standing before a big tragedy, for us bigger than any other tragedy we've faced.
That was my personal opinion, and (in accordance with every rule of good conduct) I promise not to meddle anymore. Do with that paragraph what you will.--
VKokielov 22:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For the sake of academy, let me tell you what that has to do with Israel and anti-Zionism. A Jew who will not rise to fight for Israel, accusations of misconduct be cursed, is a very peculiar Jew indeed. Have you seen the Israeli left? There is not one Israeli leftist who did not serve his round in the army. So, pardon me, when an Oxford professor spits, like the last idiot in the world, on a student from Israel because (says Oxford) this student was Israeli, why should we be surprised that Oxford punishes him? -- VKokielov 22:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The thing written here do represent a common conception among Jews, Zionists and Israelis, but it is badly written and hard to understand. There is actually a good point here to develop, using the examples of the Oxford professor who refuse to accept an Israeli only because of ita nationality and the AUT recent boycott, to write a paragraph about acadamic boycotts against Israel and the percieved bias and single out of Israel alone to boycotts. Check this Guardian in which you can find some attributation to the claims raised in the paragraph. We definitely have something to work out and discuss. MathKnight 21:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This whole section should be cut, or completely re-written. It is highly POV, irrelevant and leading. It insinuates and makes accusations. There may well be incidents of Anti-Semitism in the UK, but there would be incidents of all other forms of racism as well. It also tries to lable Ken Livingstone as an anti-semite, but he is not, and there is no factual and un-POV evidence to indicate that he might be. -- Chammy Koala 13:57, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
So we now have a lead that totally fails to mention the controversy, even among Jews, surrounding the term? This seems absolutely wrong to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:00, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
I'm currently very busy, not able to keep up with my Watchlist, etc. I will get back to this eventually; meanwhile, no one should mistake my lack of time to address this for agreement with the changes being made. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:13, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
Let me start with a question: where does the definition of "The New anti-Semitism" that makes up the first sentence ("the contemporary (beginning in the late 20th century) resurgence of anti-Jewish incidents and attacks on Jewish symbols as well as the acceptability of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse") come from? It's unattributed and it completely contradicts the Irwin Cotler definition cited/quoted below.
I don't want to be disruptive here, but in the case of a controversial term, we need to be discussing that term the way it's used in the literature. I finally found myself with an hour or so on my hands and thought I'd try to work on the lead, as discussed, but the article now announces itself as being on a rather different topic than just a few days ago. Can someone please find a set of cited definitions and write a first paragraph or two accordingly? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:36, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Twenty-five years after the end of World War II and the collapse of the most anti-Semitic regime in history, anti-Semitism appears to be on the rise around the world. But unlike the situation before 1945 when anti-Jewish polirics was largely identified with rightist elements, the current wave is linked to governments, parties and groups which are conventionally described as leftist.[---]One may oppose Israeli policy, resist Zionism or criticize worldwide Jewish support of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But when one draws on age-old hostility to Jews to strenghten a political position, when one gives credence to this charge of a worldwide Jewish plot to rule, when one attacks those with whom one has political and econonomic differences as Jews, when one implies that Jews are guilty of some primal evil, then one is guilty of anti-Semitism,[---]The Arabs, of course, like other critics of the Jews on the far left and right, insist that they are only anti-Zionist. Yet there is clear evidence that anti-Semitism -- not simply anti-Zionism -- has deeply penetrated Arab groups and governments.[---]Given the clear-cut anti-Semitic character of much pro-Arab propaganda [...] the question arises as to why so many on the left, including many Jews, hace accepted such politics as their own, or more commonly, have abstained from criticizing groups such as the Black Panthers, no matter how explicit their bigotry. [---]The fact that this time the predominant weight of the anti-Semitic thrust is on the left rather then the right will surprise only those who are unaware of the considerable literature on anti-Semitism [sic] in the socialist and other leftist movements.
the new anti-Semitism is not necessarily deliberate in character and is more often expressed by respected individuals and institutions here and abroad -- people who would be shocked to think of themselves, or have other think them, anti-Semites
The new antisemitism consists of Israel-bashing. It is more than a matter of attacking the policies of the Israeli government, which is legitimate, Abella says, if you disagree with those policies. But accusing Zionists of racism, negating Israel's right to exist as an independent state, and using Nazi metaphors to describe IDF actions in the administered territories is antisemitic.
Her evidence was that the "new" anti-Semitism places great emphasis on Holocaust-denial and belief in Jewish conspiracies and control of governments. She noted that racism may be expressed overtly or may be covert. It has become more subtle in recent years. In her view, the more serious forms of racism are those that are hidden in popular culture, such as in the words, images and descriptions used by media writers.
O.K., as I see it, there is currently a phenomenon where Israel and its assumed supporters (i.e. Jews) are being increasingly attacked in various ways (in print, verbally, physically). Proponents of the concept of a "New anti-Semitism" say that this is "New anti-Semitism" because a) Jews are being attacked as a result of antipathy for Israel, and b) Israel is being attacked in the same way that anti-Semites attack Jews, often as a socially acceptable cover or proxy for anti-Semites, and c) attacks now come not only from the right, but from the left, as purported "anti-racism". Opponents of the concept say this is not "New anti-Semitism" because a) Jews being attacked is just plain old anti-Semitism, and b) Israel is simply being legitimately criticized on moral grounds, there's nothing anti-Semitic about it, and c) charges of anti-Semitism are just a ploy to stifle debate and criticism. From what I can tell, the definitions given by various people above do not disagree on these fundamental points, so there is no pre-2001/post-2001 dichotomy. Am I missing something here? Jayjg (talk) 06:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- Viriditas | Talk 09:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I feel like I'm being buried under the weight of these, but there is no statement as to what you think these each demonstrate. Is this intended as a response to my issues above? If so, sorry, but I can't see the upshot. May I at least presume that you consider this a representative sample of statements by people who believe in the "new anti-semitism" model? Or is your point something else entirely? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:35, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
Wll, I think what this comes down to is that "New anti-Semitism" is a neologist term, (as the article was months ago) which it's propents insist isn't merely a term, but rather a real thing/phenomenon itself – similar enough to anti-Semitism to be called "anti-Semitism" but distinct and different enough to be called brand "new". This should raise some incongruities about the logic of such a term:
Does "New anti-Semitism" mean that "old" anti-Semitism is dead and no longer a continuing issue? The term seems to assert that all recent anti-Semitism is "new anti-Semitism" and conversely, it seems to imply a meaningful distinction between past and recent anti-Semitism, based simply on the aspect of time. But if "new anti-Semitism" actually is anti-Semitism, then by who's definition is recent time a valid sub-distinction from a category that spans millenia —back to before even the "troubler of Israel," Elijah. The article (as it is written) leads one to understand that the definition of "New anti-Semitism" is not based merely on time, but rather a whole bunch of other criteria mixed in with it. Is any of that criteria POV, and if so, how can this article be said to be anything other than a term, not really distinguishable from anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism?
Whats left is that one can reasonably make the assertion that most of the "new Anti-Semitism" can simply redirect-merge to anti-Zionism or anti-Judaism. The assertion that the term is anything more than a term to label certain political views as anti-Semitism is a POV one, and is only attributable to contemporary conservative polemicists, seeking to impose an agenda. The 64KUSD question – is this POV title worthy of an article? Answer: Only if its basis keeps to what it is, and not shifted to what it claims or asserts. - SV| t 18:22, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
SV, in answer to your questions, proponents of the view that there is a "New antisemitism" say that it differs from the "Old antisemitism" in a number of ways I have outlined above. However, date is not a primary differentatior, but rather an effect; that is to say, "New antisemitism" is not defined as "antisemitism that occurred after the year 1990", but rather a different kind of antisemitism which has only manifested in recent times. As for it being based on "based on anti- racism and anti- nationalism", proponents of the idea that there is a new antisemitism are quite careful to note that, in their view, it is based on purported anti-racism and anti-nationalism. For example, the Ozick quote above:Cynthia Ozick observes in an afterword that the "new" anti-Semitism accelerates under the rubric of "anti-Zionism" and is masked by the deceptive language of "human rights." This is the Big Lie of our time, propelled with "malice of aforethought by the intellectual classes, the governing elites, the most prestigious elements of the press in all the capitals of Europe and by the university professors and the diplomats." Or, as Chesler says, "it is being perpetrated in the name of antiracism etc." As for trying to decipher whether these claims are true or not, that's not the purpose of Talk: pages or Wikipedia articles, remember, as WP:NPOV states, Disputes are characterized in Wikipedia. They are not re-enacted.. Jayjg (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Weird, the 00:53 version by Levelcheck I just reverted doesn't show up in the history, but it does show up in the diff. Perhaps the database isn't caught up. Anyway, Levelcheck, the intro was inadequate, too much of a straw man definition. That's why I reverted in agreement with SlimVirgin's revert. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 01:00, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
Over 10,000 demonstrate against 'israel' new york city http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/April2805nyc.cfm
Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews Protest the State of Israel, Says Neturei Karta International http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=46640
Whenever a cultural phenomenon X reappears after a period of decline or absence, some people will call it "the new X" or "neo-X". Thus, for example "the new romantics", "the new realists", "neo-Nazism", "Neoliberalism" etc. These expressions don't imply that X is something new. To the contrary, they assert that X is something old that has re-emerged. But as soon as people realize that X has reappeared, they begin to compare the new X with the old X. And then they may discover some differences, and they may say things like "the new X is B, whereas the old X was A". Subsequently some people may discover that some of the new X is A as well. Rather then saying "the new X that is A", some people will use expressions like "the old X", "traditional X", "classical X", "paleo-X". Thus at this point some people will include "the new X that is A" in the concept of "the new X", and they will continue to call it "the new X". Other people will also include it in "new X", but often refer to it as "old X". Finally, some people will exclude "X that is A" altogether from "the new X".
The expression "the new anti-Semitism" first became popular in the early 1970s and was used to describe certain phenomena noted in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The main phenomenon was the reappearance and apparent acceptability of anti-Semitic stereotypes in public discourse. The expression was controversial from the beginning, since people were called anti-Semitic who didn't see themselves as anti-Semitic or didn't want to be seen as anti-Semitic. Especially controversial was the claim that words like "Zionist" and "Zionism" could be euphemisms for "Jew" and "the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world". To be more precise, the claim was not controversial when applied to some neo-Nazi groups who had clearly adopted this usage in their "exoteric" pronouncements. (Though it was of course denied by the neo-Nazis.) But the claim was widely controversial even when applied to other openly racist groups. The expression became even more controversial when some commentators claimed that almost all forms of anti-Zionism were anti-Semitism. The basis for such claims was (1) that "Zionism" was "Jewish nationalism". To be against Zionism was therefore to be against Jewish nationalism. Because anti-Zionist supported other forms of nationalism (e.g. Arab or Palestinian) they were clearly biased against Jews. (2) Even if Zionism was understood in a more narrow sense as support for the Jewish state, anti-Zionists applied standards to Israel that they did not apply to other states. For example, they did not demand that Arab states should cease being Moslem. The anti-Zionists obviously didn't accept this argument. They generally rejected the first wide definition of Zionism and argued that Zionism should be seen as a form of colonialism, imperialism or racism, whereas Arab and Moslem nationalism (Islamism) should be seen as a struggle for independence.
In 2001 Pierre-André Taguieff, a French historian of political ideas, presented an updated version of his old analysis of "the new Judeophobia". He argued that after the 1967 Six-Day War, a "new anti-Semitism" was spread across the world around a "conspiracy myth" labeled (by Taguieff) "absolute anti-Zionism". The main sources for the myth were the Arab Moslem world and the Soviet empire. Around demonized images of Zionism and Israel, all the ancient anti-Semitic themes were conjured. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, for example, was massively diffused in 1967. He further maintained that a second wave of Judeophobia had swept across the world in the late 1990s. This time around the Soviet empire was out of business, but judeophobic themes were often amplified by passing from some Arab source through the far right to some leftist groups. Taguieff listed 4 characteristics of the "new Judeophobia": (1) The massive use of anti-Racism to promote anti-Jewish goals, (2) "Banalization" of the themes and language of Holocaust deniers, (3) Legitimization of anti-Semitic agitation by reference to radical anti-imperialism, anti-Americanism and criticism of free-trade globalization, and (4) Interaction with Islamist notions of Israel as the "little Satan" mixed with a demonized image of the Zionist control of the Western world. He thus disctinguished between "the old Judeophobia", which was based on explicit racism, and "the new Judeophobia", which was based on "demonological or absolute anti-Zionism". Taguieff's terminology has been adopted by other researchers and commentators and thus "the new Judeophobia" is a rather well-defined expression which means (in general) the modern (post 1967) use of anti-Semitic themes legitimized by anti-Zionism. Sometimes the expression "new anti-Semitism" has been used as a synonym of "new Judeophobia".
From a November 2001 editorial by Amotz Asa-El in Jerusalem Post:
In the post-war era, again, anti-Semitism fueled a Zionist psychosis across the former Eastern Bloc, ultimately unleashing another mass immigration to Israel.
YET, TODAY'S challenge is different, since all these precedents were part of the Jews' European experience. Today's crisis is about anti-Semitism entering an entirely new phase in its already elaborate history.
Previous turning points in the development of anti- Semitism - since early Christianity condemned our forefathers, ourselves, and our descendants as Christ's killers - included the barring of Jews from public office in the waning days of the Roman Empire, a measure that socially marginalized the Jews; prohibitions on land ownership and cultivation, which enhanced the Jews' image as transient guests wherever they resided; the 1096 Crusaders' mass murder of entire communities in Germany; the 1215 Lateran Council's yellow-badge decree, which made the Jew carry his own discrimination wherever he went; the late Medieval expulsions, which made the threat of displacement a hallmark of the Jewish psyche; the 1648 massacres in East Europe, which happened despite an unwritten alliance between the Jews and the Polish nobility; and, of course, modern anti-Semitism, which depicted the Jews as nearly anyone's demon, from the fascists' anti-patriots to the Marxists' plutocrats and the Stalinists' "rootless cosmopolitans."
Now, just when the Christianity that invented it goes through pains to turn its back on anti-Semitism, it is being adopted by an Islamism intent to scapegoat the Jews for its own failures and eager to mobilize deep-seated prejudices among Christians against the Jews.
Newsweek cover story April 2002:
Murray Gordon for AJC August 2002:Many see the rise in Western Europe of what they call the "new anti-Semitism" as even more worrisome. Since serious Israeli-Palestinian fighting began in the fall of 2000, there has been a spike in harassment and vandalism targeting Jews, especially in France. Much of that is in poor communities where immigrant Muslims and immigrant Jews from North Africa live side by side. Unemployment and frustrations are high. Arab satellite stations, as well as European news networks, broadcast a steady stream of reports on Palestinians under fire, their homes destroyed, their lands reoccupied, their children killed. There is also, in many parts of Europe, a residue of the old racist attitudes that spawned the Fascist and Nazi policies of the 1930s. One of the presidential candidates in France's upcoming elections, Jean-Marie Le Pen, skirts the limits of the law baiting both Arabs and Jews. He's expected to garner 10 percent of the vote
What is referred to as the "new anti-Semitism," which resonates so powerfully in Western Europe today, is not exactly new. Arab attacks against Jews occurred during and after the Yom Kippur War in 1973 and during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 to root out the PLO, which had been using the country as a platform to shell Israeli towns and settlements. What is different about today's Arab violence is its scope and intensity.
2003 headline from Jerusalem Post: "Jews fear 'new' anti-Semitism in quiet German city"
Surveys say anti-Jewish assaults and incidents in much of Europe are at their most frequent since Hitler's defeat.
Germany is especially sensitive because, within living memory, Hitler put to death 6 million Jews. But violence is more prevalent in France, where slums are crowded with disaffected young Arabs.
"Of course, we're afraid - we are terrified," said Ima Buchinger, an 18-year-old student, at the Regensburg synagogue on the anniversary of Kristallnacht, the nationwide Nazi pogrom of 1938.
Tall and blonde, she might pass for a Wagnerian opera diva. Still, she said, young Arabs, Turks, and Germans taunt her and her Jewish friends, sometimes threatening physical violence.
As she spoke, German police in a Volkswagen van were at their usual spot outside, just as security forces watch over synagogues in Vienna, Paris, or London.
Rabbi Dannyel Morag advises calm but caution to his Regensburg community - 700 in a city of 160,000, many of them recent Russian immigrants with a thin grasp of either Hebrew or Torah.
"So far, we're OK," he said, "but in big cities it can be terrible. Some Jews can't find non-Jewish business partners because so many Germans think there may be trouble again, and they're afraid."
-- Denis Diderot 06:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
From my cursory reading, I say, great improvement, nice work. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 07:35, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
This is unattributed and may be false. One difficulty here is that even if people discuss the difference between "old" and "new" anti-Semitism, it doesn't necessarily mean that they always see them as distinct entities existing side by side. I don't think I've ever, for example, seen a breakdown of anti-Semitic incidents on the basis of "old" vs "new anti-Semitism. Many times it is close to impossible to deduce from a particular text what definition the author is using. Because my previous examples clearly haven't been enough to convey the fundamental ambiguity of the term I will provide two additional example from a recent (2004) book, "Those who forget the past: the question of anti-Semitism". These two authors clearly don't see any sharp distinction between "old anti-Semitism" , as exemplified by neo-Nazism, and "the new anti-Semitism".The word "new" in this construction refers only secondarily to the fact that this is "recent" anti-Semitism. The term New anti-Semitism is strongly identified with a controversial view that this new anti-Semitism is distinct—in its rhetoric, in its pretexts, and its locus on the political spectrum—from the old anti-Semitism that continues to exist alongside of it.
We see that Nazism, communism, radical pan-Arab nationalism, and Islamism share a remarkably similar demonology of the Jew. [---]The new anti-Semitism eagerly scavenges this arsenal of older images which, since the onset of modernity, have stereotyped the Jews as a dangerously mobile, rootless, abstract, and transnational mafia uniquely tuned to exploit capitalist economy and culture. (Robert S. Wistrich pp. 88-89)
This new anti-Semitism is a kaledioscope of old hatreds shattered and rearranged into random patterns at once familiar and strange. It is the medieval image of the “Christ-killing” Jew resurrected on the editorial pages of cosmopolitan European newspapers. It is the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement refusing to put the Star of David on their ambulances. It is Zimbabwe and Malaysia – nations nearly bereft of Jews – warning of an international Jewish conspiracy to control the world's finances. It is neo-Nazis donning checkered Palestinian kaffiyehs and Palestinians lining up to buy copies of 'Mein Kampf'. (Mark Strauss p272)
I don't think an encyclopedia should concern itself too much with the meaning of words and expressions. That is a task for dictionaries. Wikipedia should simply note that the expression is ambiguous, describe the various meanings, and avoid making unattributed claims about the relative frequency or "properness" of any interpretation (unless the interpretation is clearly marginal or incorrect acording to dictionaries). -- Denis Diderot 08:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
This is exactly what "the new anti-Semitism" refers to. The anti-Semitism article is too long for adding information about "the new anti-Semitism" to it. It wouldn't present any problem to direct readers from a general article on "the new anti-Semitism" to information about "the New anti-Semitism" under the "new Judeophobia" heading. I really don't think that we disagree substantially on any of this, and I certainly don't think that I am "unfamiliar with the topic" as you seem to suggest. -- Denis Diderot 10:41, 3 May 2005 (UTC)The New anti-Semitism refers to a contemporary (beginning in the late 20th century) international resurgence of anti-Jewish incidents and attacks on Jewish symbols as well as the acceptability of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse.
It seems to me that "New Judeophobia" is pretty much a neologism, and we shouldn't use it.
I agree that not everyone means the same thing by "new anti-Semitism" (or "New anti-Semitism" or "New Anti-Semitism"); I doubt that the views run in neat parallel with the choice of capitalization.
This article clearly should be about the thesis that there is something distinctly new about the present mode of anti-Semitism, and about the debate over that thesis. Insofar as the term simply means "recent anti-Semitism", that's not an article topic: if everyone agreed that was all that was going on, this would all just go in the anti-Semitism article. Recent incidents of anti-Semitic violence merit mention in the article insofar as they bolster the thesis (e.g. anti-Semitic violence coming from sectors that were not part of the "old" anti-Semitism), but they should not be the subject of the article.
Hope I was clear here; I'm writing "on the run". Let me know if anything I said is confusing. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:11, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
In reference to Wikipedia:Lead section, the current lead is too long, too complex (not clear), and incomprehensible to the average reader. Denis Diderot's recent addition to the lead should be added to a "History" section, as it is not necessary in the lead. The current description added by Jmabel needs to be condensed down to two small sentences. Please try reading this article as if you were a totally disinterested reader who knew nothing about the topic. If I were such a person and I was reading the article in its current state, I would not read past the first paragraph. -- Viriditas | Talk 04:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
The following sentence has found its way back into the lead: "This view is very controversial, especially through the association between the "new anti-Semitism" and the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict." I'm not even sure what this means but "…through the association between…" is extremely unclear, unclear to such a degree that if I were not already familiar with this topic, I could not even make an educated guess at what it might mean. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:57, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't it the nature of the beast that any attempt to define "new" and "leading edge" cases of anti-semitism is automatically POV?
Before I attempt to tackle this controversial section, I would like to know why the "Opponents" subsection is listed before proponents. -- Viriditas | Talk 06:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
A note of this needs to be made in the article. Many groups on the left sympathize with the palestinians as being an oppressed people, which comprises their main opposition to the state of Israel, this article makes no distinction between anti-semitism and opposition to jewish colonialism of palestine.-- 68.74.30.182 23:03, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be removed by now. MathKnight 12:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
It's still a messy article. For example, I just excised this mangled comment which had snuck into the text:
"Are we going to have ping-pong claims and counter-claims? Are we now going to have a "what the propoponents answer" section as well, followed by a "what the opponents answer in response etc."? Please integrate these arguments into the opponents section, rather than extending a debate down the page." --
LeFlyman 06:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Responding to an idiotic comment on the discussion page of Black supremacy, I found myself at The Holocaust. Mindful that this article is an overview of the subject with numerous other, related articles elsewhere on this web site, I still think this piece could use some major additions, major work. The subject is not a primary interest of mine, so I don't foresee myself contributing much more beyond that which I already have. But this is a general solicitation (I haven't done so on the wiki page set aside specifically for that purpose; I figured this was more direct) for contributors to converge upon the page and improve the piece. I've made some suggestions in talk. Take 'em or leave 'em, but please contribute however you feel so moved. The article seems to have been nominated for featured article status, and that effort (understandably) failed. The next time it's nominated, such a thing shouldn't happen again. Peace. deeceevoice 13:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If anyone think that the Latuff cartoon is Anti-Semitic, it's just a PoV, not a fact. So this cartoon has nothing to do in the part "Anti-Semitic cartoons".
The fact about allegation of IDF Spokesman Brigadier-General Ron Kitrey needs to be covered. Please stop erase it.
-- Marcoo 23:16, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When an image is included to illustrate a part of an article, the choice must respect the NPoV. Here, it doesn't. The article can't carry the POVs it presents.
Just few allegation of massacre came before the April 12. For example, the figures given by Terje Roed-Larsen came after.
-- Marcoo 23:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"As for the IDF spokesman's statement being misunderstood, why do you think it needs to be covered?" : Because all Israeli newspapers wrote the allegations by the IDF spokesman, so the report by Terje Roed-Larsen has to be read in this context. -- Marcoo 00:00, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"The picture is an example of the POV it represents" : So the name of this part must become : "Cartoons described as Anti-Semitic"
If you read an article named "Anti-Semitic cartoons", it means the cartoons you see are Anti-Semitic. It's not a NPoV. -- Marcoo 00:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"why do imagine that they were based on the IDF spokesman's claim" : I don't imagine anything, I gave the exact chronology. If you want to add more facts, feel free, but dont delete exact facts.
-- Marcoo 00:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you try to assert that people who revert your edits are "vandals", you will no doubt get little sympathy from the admins, who have no qualms about blocking in spite of such allegations. Vandalism has a very specific and narrow definition on Wikipedia. As for your 3 lines in the "opponents" section, I explained quite clearly what the problem is; they appear to be original research; that is, novel arguments you have made up on your own. Could you please find a source which shows opponents of the concept of "New anti-Semitism" using these arguments? Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 14:30, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As for the Jenin part - lengthy discussion should be made in the Battle of Jenin 2002. But I will say it loud and clearly:
MathKnight 11:33, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is written : "One claim made by opponents of Israel and/or the notion of a new anti-Semitism is that defenders of Israel insist that any criticism of the State of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism."
I never heard about such a claim. I've heard about the claim (from opponents of the notion of a new anti-Semitism) that defenders of Israel would often use the word Anti-Semitic to disqualify any criticism of Israel, but never saw the claim that defenders of Israel would insist that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Do you have any sources ? -- Marcoo 12:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If there no sources about this, I proposed to remove the paragraph. -- Marcoo 14:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wrote the link you gave me, but the given links :
aren't an answer to my question.
"Jews relate to anti-semitic conspiracy every criticism of Israel." : I never said that nobody told this !
What I said is I've never heard anybody told that defenders of Israel insist that any criticism of the State of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism. It's a big difference I think. So in my opinion we have to re-write the paragraph. -- Marcoo 15:42, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, sorry for my english. I'm going to try to explain :
First, I agree with the fact that some people say that defenders of Israel, when they are confronted to an argument which is a criticism of Israel, want to link it to Anti-Semitism. That's what all yours sources above are talking about.
But who said that defenders of Israel explicitly accept and explain the idea that any criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitic ? I've never heard that.
In the article, a quote of Alan Dershowitz "Show me a single instance where a major Jewish leader or Israeli leader has ever said that criticizing a particular policy of Israeli government is anti-Semitic".
But nobody never told that defenders of Israel explain that criticizing a particular policy of Israeli government is anti-Semitic ! Defenders of Israel are sometimes accused to systematically link critics of Israel to Anti-Semitic, but without saying of course that any criticism of Israel is Antisemitic.
So the assertion : "One claim made by opponents of Israel and/or the notion of a new anti-Semitism is that defenders of Israel insist that any criticism of the State of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism." is strange because I never saw this and that's why I ask for sources. -- Marcoo 21:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, they give sources of the claim that in front of a criticism of Israel, some defenders of Israel always try to link it to Anti-Semitism. It doesn't give sources of the claim that defenders of Israel say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's not the same thing ! -- Marcoo 22:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I must say, as a more general point - the whole Straw-man para really does seem to be intended to express a particular POV to me.
It's quite true by the way that defenders of Israeli actions and policy will play the anti-Semite card from time to time, and I think the article should at least reflect this. Some won't, and fair enough - I can't say I've ever heard a major Israeli politician do that. But some do. jamesgibbon 02:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Because Jayjg is asking me, I will give sources for what I included in "Opponents, Opponents of the claim of New anti-Semitism assert that:" part.
1. "The double standard is in favor of Israel in regard of disrespect of the international laws."
See (in french) : "notre dénonciation lors des manifestations anti-guerre du "deux poids, deux mesures" concernant l'Irak que l'on bombarde d'un côté et Israël qui jouit d'une totale impunité malgré ses crimes, ses violations des résolutions de l'ONU et sa possession d'armes de destruction massive"
[25], see [26] for automatic translation.
2. "The Israeli-Arab conflict is important not because of the amount of casualties but for geo-strategic, symbolic, religious, historical reasons."
(editing)
3. "Many Anti-Semitic allegations come from Zionist non-Jewish people who spread the idea that Israel is the only legitimate State for Jews."
(editing)
-- Marcoo 14:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editors on forums on the net could never be considered as opponents of the claim of New anti-Semitism ? Can you explain me why ? -- Marcoo 20:37, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do you have to ask me twice the same thing in half an hour ? Let me the time to see that you asked me something...
OK for your explanation about quotes from forums. All the sources I included in my last changes on the article talk about the supposed rize of a "new anti-Semitism". Even if you don't speak French, you can check it using an automatic translation. -- Marcoo 22:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You can use the automatic translation you want, as Google's one. The views are notable, coming from well-known activist Michel Warschawski, well known french association MRAP, and from a conference about Christian Zionism. -- Marcoo 22:38, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think you didn't understand the articles. They are alking about the same concept. In France, it's called a come back of Anti-Semitism but it is the thing you call in the States New Anti-Semitism. -- Marcoo 21:21, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I add that on New anti-Semitism page, I read :
"This view [of New AntiSemitism] is very controversial, especially because it presumes a connection between the New anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism". -- Marcoo 21:30, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Un groupe d'intellectuels sionistes européens vient de trouver la solution, en faisant intervenir l'inconscient et un concept passe-partout qu'ils nomment "le glissement sémantique". Quand on dénonce le sionisme, voire quant on critique Israël, on a, parfois inconsciemment, comme objectif non pas la politique d'un gouvernement (le gouvernement Sharon) ou la nature coloniale d'un mouvement politique (le sionisme) ou encore le racisme institutionnel d'un état (Israël), mais les Juifs."
"Ceux qui dénoncent les actes antisémites, réels ou fruits de "glissements sémantiques", mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme, car ce n'est pas le racisme, quel qu'il soit et d'où qu'il vienne, qu'ils combattent, mais uniquement le racisme de l'autre. Ce ne sont certainement pas eux, les Tarnero, Lanzman et autres Taguieff, qui ont le droit de faire la leçon aux militants de la gauche radicale et du mouvement contre la mondialisation marchande, qui depuis toujours, ont été à la pointe de tous les combats anti-racistes, et n'en ont jamais déserté aucun."
The famous book by Taguieff Michel Warschawski is referring is called "La nouvelle judéophobie" (literally "the new judeophobia").
"Le MRAP n'acceptera jamais que la condamnation de la politique criminelle d'Ariel Sharon soit assimilée à de l'antisémitisme. La volonté de certains de déplacer le conflit israélo-palestinien sur un terrain communautaire ou religieux , alors qu'il relève exlusivement répétons le, d'une question de justice et de droit international, dans le respect des résolutions des Nation Unies, est d'une gravité extrême. Cette attitude ne peut que banaliser l'antisémitisme (la profanation du cimetière juif de Herrlisheim prouve que contrairement aux propos tenus par le président du CRIF, l'antisémitisme de l'extrême droite n'a pas disparu!), et favoriser le développement de tous les racismes, de la haine et de la violence ainsi que du communautarisme."
Here he's talking about a new supposed kind of Anti-Semitism, opposed to the old kind ("l'antisémitisme de l'extrême droite n'a pas disparu!").
-- Marcoo 22:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"and watch the 3 Revert Rule" -> You reverted 3 times my changes : [27], [28] and [29] in 1,5 hour. Good job for an admin. :-) Why do you delete everytimes my changes before asking me explanations ? I wonder how did you become Admin... -- Marcoo 22:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I felt a little bit agressed when I was asked twice the same new question in 30 min, waiting for my answer. Nevertheless, I'm surprised to see that my changes were immediatly deleted everytimes, whereas I never refused to stop the dialog and always gave explanation. -- Marcoo 08:24, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"I am clearly involved in dialogue here with you" -> In this dialog, you always suppose first that what I say is false, so it's quite agressive as a dialog.
I didn't see first your comment. I explain : In France, some people express the idea that the New Anti-Semitism is in fact a Strawman Anti-Semitism. That's why they are opponents to the idea of New Anti-Semitism (as developped for example by Taguieff and Tarnero). It's not because you don't see exactly the words "New Antisemitism" in google's translation that it means they don't speak about it. -- Marcoo 22:13, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Un groupe d'intellectuels sionistes européens vient de trouver la solution, en faisant intervenir l'inconscient et un concept passe-partout qu'ils nomment "le glissement sémantique". Quand on dénonce le sionisme, voire quant on critique Israël, on a, parfois inconsciemment, comme objectif non pas la politique d'un gouvernement (le gouvernement Sharon) ou la nature coloniale d'un mouvement politique (le sionisme) ou encore le racisme institutionnel d'un état (Israël), mais les Juifs."
You take the axiom that "New anti-Semitism" is different than "Strawman anti-Semitism". But in France the opponents of the notion of "New anti-Semitism" say that this one is in reality a "Strawman anti-Semitism". -- Marcoo 22:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Ceux qui dénoncent les actes antisémites, réels ou fruits de "glissements sémantiques", mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme, car ce n'est pas le racisme, quel qu'il soit et d'où qu'il vienne, qu'ils combattent, mais uniquement le racisme de l'autre. Ce ne sont certainement pas eux, les Tarnero, Lanzman et autres Taguieff, qui ont le droit de faire la leçon aux militants de la gauche radicale et du mouvement contre la mondialisation marchande, qui depuis toujours, ont été à la pointe de tous les combats anti-racistes, et n'en ont jamais déserté aucun."]
The famous book by Taguieff Michel Warschawski is referring is called "La nouvelle judéophobie" (literally "the new judeophobia").
Because he speaks about the position of Tarnero, Lanzman, and Taguieff, who are known to develop the idea of a "New Anti-Semitism", as Taguieff's book called "la nouvelle judeophobie". -- Marcoo 22:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Le MRAP n'acceptera jamais que la condamnation de la politique criminelle d'Ariel Sharon soit assimilée à de l'antisémitisme. La volonté de certains de déplacer le conflit israélo-palestinien sur un terrain communautaire ou religieux , alors qu'il relève exlusivement répétons le, d'une question de justice et de droit international, dans le respect des résolutions des Nation Unies, est d'une gravité extrême. Cette attitude ne peut que banaliser l'antisémitisme (la profanation du cimetière juif de Herrlisheim prouve que contrairement aux propos tenus par le président du CRIF, l'antisémitisme de l'extrême droite n'a pas disparu!), et favoriser le développement de tous les racismes, de la haine et de la violence ainsi que du communautarisme."
Same anwser than for first source. -- Marcoo 22:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Marcoo had added the following to the opponents section:
Apart from the problem with phrases like "in regard of irrespect" or "opponents of the argument respond to these objections", these claims were unsourced and of doubtful relevance to the topic (whether the "new anti-Semitism" is a reality).
Marcoo has since provided some sources that are supposed to support the claims. They have been discussed above.
One problem is that Marcoo provides French sources and make claims about the French discourse which are difficult to verify for people who don't read French. Jayjg therefore asked me for help. Here are my comments:
1) Michael Warschawski. [30] Warschawski does not argue against the existance of a new anti-Semitism. He argues against the identification of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism which he calls a "semantic shift" ("glissement sémantique"). He also also complains about the one-sided concern with anti-Semitism without taking note of anti-Arabism. In fact, he seems to support the claim of a new anti-Semitism. Here is an ugly (too literal) translation: "Anti-Semitism exists, and, in Europe, appears to raise its head again after being unvoiced for half a century following the horrors of the Nazi judeocide and crimes of collaboration. In a growing segment of Arab-Muslim communities in Europe, racist generalizations accuse, without distinction, Jews of crimes commited by the Jewish State and its army."
2) Renée le Mignot, MRAP. [31] She doesn't discuss the issues at all. It contains a general discussion of MRAP's position on the Arab-Israeli conflict (support of a two-state solution). There is a brief statement towards the end that "condamnation of the criminal politics of Ariel Sharon" must never be "assimilated to anti-Semitism".
Denis Diderot 03:03, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"I didn't judge the value or relevance of arguments." You did. You said that opponents have to argue either that there isn't any new anti-Semitism or that the New anti-Semitism is of the same order as the old. You decided how the opponents' arguments should be to be acceptable for you.
""Ceux qui dénoncent les actes antisémites, réels ou fruits de "glissements sémantiques", mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme, car ce n'est pas le racisme, quel qu'il soit et d'où qu'il vienne, qu'ils combattent, mais uniquement le racisme de l'autre. Ce ne sont certainement pas eux, les Tarnero, Lanzman et autres Taguieff, qui ont le droit de faire la leçon aux militants de la gauche radicale et du mouvement contre la mondialisation marchande, qui depuis toujours, ont été à la pointe de tous les combats anti-racistes, et n'en ont jamais déserté aucun."
is an explicit criticism of french authors who develop the concept of New Anti-Semitism, I don't see what you want more. In the first sentence, Warschawski gives the idea that this way to develop this concept which is outside of the context ("mais ne disent rien des exactions anti-arabes") is dangerous ("portent une part de responsabilité dans la communautarisation des esprits et dans le renforcement de l'antisémitisme"), and for M. W. proponents of so-called New Anti-Semitism don't even fight the racism, but give more power to the Anti-Semitism itself ("le renforcement de l'antisémitisme"). If you've read the Taguieff's book, the criticism of the concept of New Anti-Semitism by M.W. and what he's referring is quite explicit. -- Marcoo 01:01, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's quite clear you believe that, Marcoo, but you haven't been able to actually provide a citation showing that. Unless they address the issue directly, we can't go about assuming what they mean and entering it as fact. Jayjg (talk) 22:47, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
All of the sources in this section alleging anti-semitism on US campuses come from either an article on the Anti-Defamation League website (itself using words such as 'allegedly') or a text file with no sources mentioned. If better sources cannot be found (especially considering the section claims the offences were caught on videotape) then this section should, at the least, be considerably reworded, if not deleted.
Additionally, the section on the San Francisco bay report 'ignoring the racist, violent nature of the atttacks' is clearly POV. illWill 19:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In line with the "political" and "unequal treatment" forms of anti-Semitism in the guise of Anti-Zionism, we have examples creating a furor here on Wikipedia.
See:
Zionist Terrorism and
Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Zionist_terrorism
Israeli Terrorism and
Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Israeli_terrorism
--
LeFlyman 05:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're right, the comments were visible. However, your removing them made some other commented out text visible; I've removed it all now. Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Many of the links on this page take the reader to Hebrew-language sites - no good if you are interested in checking the sources of some of the claims here. I don't know Wkipedia policy on this, but it doesn't seem right that the en Wikipedia uses non-english sources. If nobody can supply English versions, they should go.
Also, there are many sources (see section I added about incidents in the United States above) which come from press releases released by the ADL with no links to their origins either - this is tantamount to presenting the POV of teh ADL as if it were fact, and isn't really much different from the 'No original research' caveat which pops up all the time. illWill 13:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The official policy on Verifiability suggests rather strongly that sources should be in English wherever possible. It is not a carved-in-stone requirement, but please "pander" to us anglophones as much as possible. Thanks. 64.140.89.34 02:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose that this enormous table be removed, and the contents summarised in a shorter paragraph. As quite a lot of the material is the point of view of Cotler, I don't think it warrants the amount of space it takes up, expecially when much of it is duplicated elsewhere in the article. The idea of 'six categories' and 'thirteen indices' is an attempt to present the problem in a manner which may be scientifically measurable, but Cotler's assertions are quite vague and could be subject to interpretation.
For example:
It seems that Cotler's main point is that unfair treatment to Israel (inspired by religion, racism or other causes) constitutes anti-semitism. I can't see anything in that enormous table that strays very far from material which could be summarised in two sentences. Any thoughts? illWill 22:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
While I think that the article still needs some work (though it actually flows fairly well), I am not sure why it needs the NPOV tag. I was impressed with the general level of balance here, in explaining both claims and counterclaims without the omnipresent "Some people say...other people believe...some critics assert..." of so many controversal articles. Is there a reason to keep the tag? -- Goodoldpolonius2 03:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Far from being NPOV this particular section ought to be totally disputed. It starts off with a quote from Kofi Annan insisting that the world must not be silent. A reasonable statement related to the topic from an authoritave source. Afterwards it has two long quotes which, to paraphrase, state "The UN is biased against Israel and the only reason can be anti-Semitism". The quoute from Bayefsky, for example, points out a number of human rights abuses and states that Israel is unique in being criticized for it. One could indicate that there are other factors which make Israel unique. For example, to my knowledge China does not have a powerful lobby in the US who attracts the President of the United States as a speaker. Zimbabwe isn't a first world nation recieving billions of dollars a year in aid from the United States. Saudi Arabia wasn't created by a UN resolution. One could point all of this out, and then cut the whole thing and paste it into Israel and the United Nations where it belongs.
To balance the POV of the UN, find some evidence of the UN being anti-Semitic, or turning a blind eye to it. The current content belongs in the aforementioned article regarding Israel. I won't remove it because of the inevitable long running revert war that follows. -- Uncle Bungle 13:28, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Israeli settlers in Gaza, angered over the gaza pullout, have staged numerous rallies and demonstrations to try to gain support in greater Israel. According to The Guardian, the actions of these activists have included having children leaving their houses with their hands up or wearing Star of David badges. These were Nazi practicies, and the settlers are trying to associate the actions of Israel with Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. [33]
To the best of my knowledge no one has outright called this new anti-Semitism as of yet, but the guardian clearly indicates that the intent of the protesters is to draw a comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. This article states that such comparisons are anti-Semitic in the rules of new anti-Semitism. I realize that the rules on original research may apply.
User:Jpgordon reverted my addition and I won't start a revert war, but would instead appriciate some comments. In the meantime I am going to add it to the
gaza pullout article instead.
--
Uncle Bungle 17:30, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Right now, the article contains a stubby mention of Norman Finkelstein. In its entirety, it reads "Norman Finkelstein dedicates the first half of his book Beyond Chutzpah to debunking claims of new anti-Semitism, arguing that it simply provides political cover to supporters of Israel. He notes that Jewish leaders consistently claim there is a new wave of anti-Semitism on the basis of what he considers scanty evidence every couple decades."
Given that Finkelstein is a very controversial figure—in the proper sense of controversial, I'm not using that as a euphemism—a passing mention of him like this probably does not serve our readers very well. This should either be fleshed out or removed. (It also could be worded better, I guess I'll go do that, but I haven't read the book in question, so I'm in no position to flesh it out.) -- Jmabel | Talk 06:37, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Is Noam Chomsky really "Jewish," as is claimed in the article? My understanding is that he was born Jewish but is now atheist (or at least secular). Does anyone know for sure? -- zenohockey 00:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph was deleted (corrected here):
In my view it is important to point out where the rejection of criticism of the concept of "New Anti-Semitism" comes from. -- Vít Zvánovec 18:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't insist that this paragraph has to placed here. Please, advice me another good place, because that text is very important. Thank you. -- Vít Zvánovec 08:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Aha, I didn't know that. Maybe it would be satisfactory to put this into Self-hating Jew. In my view Wikiquote is not enough, WP is needed. -- Vít Zvánovec 18:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Moved to Self-hating Jew. -- Vít Zvánovec 19:16, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
For reference's sake, can I get the name of "all monitoring agencies" according to whom "there has been a resurgence in anti-Semitism."
Ah, what's the point... There is very little hope for this article anyway. -- Diderot 22:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is there no hope for this article? Pintele Yid 06:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Which of those reports asserts that there is a "resurgence of [...] acceptance of anti-Semitic beliefs and their expression in public discourse", as I have seen precious little of it in the mainstream press. But the point rather, is that I dispute that there are enough years of data to state that there is a trend. EUMC's report covers all of two years of data, three years in the past.
I also claim that the new anti-Semitism is significant only within a context of international disputes over Israeli policy and its effects, and I challenge you to find a single published piece - an editorial or magazine article - on the new anti-Semitism that does not discuss the notion that some criticism of Israel is covert anti-Semitism. This point deserves to be in the first para, because otherwise I should think the response to anti-Semitic incidents is "[o]ut of any proportion to the size of the conflict, whether measured in number of individuals affected, the size of the territory in dispute, or by the magnitude of alleged transgressions".
I also dispute the title of the second section ("The nature of the new anti-Semitism ") and its tone, as it assume that which it ought to set out to prove. You must marshall arguments that there is a "new" anti-semitism by first setting out what is new about it, rather than describing it as you imagine it to be.
As for further disputes. I dispute every sentence that contains a passive verb, a weasel word or a non-specific allegation, as well as several sections of dubious logical coherency. The proliferation of such usages makes this article as it stands garbage.
But this is the totally disputed section, where it's not just bad writing that's the problem:
I am too tired right now to go through the rest of the page. My hopelessness, and the totallydisputed tag, stem from the poor sourcing, the inconsistent argumentation, and also the circular logic of assuming what you wish to prove, in an article that is about an idea and what impact its having. This is an intrinsically controversial topic, which means it has to be far better sourced. So many weasel words and passive sentences... quite honestly, it's shameful. -- Diderot 03:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Rama, I removed the images, in part because they don't seem to show anything, and also because I couldn't understand the text, or the relevance. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Jajyg: Recently, in London, I've witnessed the following phenomenon: some pro-Palestinian group sets up a booth denouncing Israel in some street, and a few dozen meters away a pro-Israeli group sets up a booth denouncing the Palestinians and "New Antisemitism". Rama apparently witnessed the same kind of action in Lausanne. I suspect that this is relatively common that one party protests somewhere and the other party decides to do a counter-protest nearby.
So I think this is interesting to give concrete examples of people protesting "New Antisemitism" in the streets, so that it doesn't stay some kind of abstract notion. I'll give you another example: I'm striving to find free photographs for the street protests French presidential election, 2002 because all we currently have are just dry counts of hundreds of thousands of people, which, I think, somehow fail to fully convey the event. Similarly, to go back to anti-semitism, we have pictures from the Nazi death camps, whereas most of the people depicted are non-notable and the horrific fate they faced is described in the text (so the picture does not really convey a lot of information). What do you think? David.Monniaux 11:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I dunno, they are fine pictures and all, but I don't see them illustrating any of the concepts in the article about new anti-Semitism -- I wouldn't expect to see these pictures in an encyclopedia article on the topic, either. Correct me if I am wrong, but the people aren't notable, the protest is not notable, and I can't really see the connection here. Rama, they are nice photos, but I don't see them adding anything to the article that is informational in nature. -- Goodoldpolonius2 05:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Just a little note. I'm taking no position whether to keep or remove the photos. However, I cannot help noticing that some people here, such as User:Jayjg, keep on demanding proofs or justifications of certain things about the subject of the photos. Apparently, User:Rama was there and had a discussion with them, so he probably knows their slogans and their political position. I think we should assume good faith in that respect — I don't think that Rama is a dodgy character, and have never heard of him posting images and adding captions that do not correspond to what the images depict. David.Monniaux 17:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
If there are no more question, I think that we might consider restoring the images by now. Rama 06:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I do not accuse you of anything, I am just very surprised that these images, which have been proved to be illustration of actual complains about "New Antisemitism", should not be used, apparently on the grounds that they do no illustrate a pre-conception of what "New Antisemitism" should be. It sort of strikes me as ajusting facts around a definition rather than the converse. Note that I cannot see what is "New Antisemit" in the images you show; this is political criticism toward Israel, this is regular antisemitism and this is normal antisemitism as well. Rama 15:07, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Confusion ? I have not noticed much confusion on this respect, rather dispute that they display the face of "new antisemitism" that some would like to focus on. Rama 07:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Since no-one has mentioned it that I can spot, the cartoon attributed to Latuff is a bit odd. Run a search for "Latuff" on google-images and the one on this page is the only example I have found where the style of mixing photo with drawing is used, leading me to suspect. The text style in the speach bubble is not typical either. Less clear cut is my view that the words do not follow Latuff's style. Overall, I believe that this cartoon has been mis-attributed. 80.6.104.41 21:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)Mr Smin.
The cartoon is Anti-Semetic not because it criticizes Sharon, but because it depicts the jews as being bloodthirsty jerks that enjoy watching Palestinian children die. The Bush cartoon doesnt have anything about enjoying killing kids.
I feel that the debate on this item is largely over. The codification of antisemitism by Europe to include activity aimed at Israel when it meets certain criteria proves sufficiently (in law) that some forms of anti-Israel / anti-Zionist activity are antisemitic. What it does not prove is that ALL critisisms of Israel are anti-semitic - but then this article doesn't claim that. While interesting the comments from detractors do not add (or remove) anything from the content of the article, they simply say that sometimes critisism is legitimate. That's fine, and sometimes sheep are black. This whole section in my opinion is now only of historical usefulness. To dispute the existance of what this article describes as "New Antisemitism" is now to disagree with the law, and with facts on the ground. - I've removed the disputed tag as a result. This article was not disputed, it was dated. Oboler 20:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)That's insane! "anti Americanism smacks of fascism and "anti Zionism" is an equally fascist notion. The idea that if your Jewish you're by fact of being so the target of a criticism of Israel is ludicrous and slanderous against many Semetic and less Semetic critics of Israel. I suppose Noam Chomskey's one of your new "anti Semetic" (ie non Zionist imperialist) brigade? Mensch2006 08:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I made several edits on 25 December 2005. These were purely for better reading and I tried hard to be both clear and precise, and maintain NPOV. In particular, I think that the wordiness of one of the opening paragraphs ('locus' and 'pretexts' are words that are meaningless to the average reader) was unnecessarily confusing.
Also, please remember that links should only be used where relevant to the content. I don't think it helps to link words like criticism. Brw12 06:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone put 'pretexts' and 'locus' back. These are simply beyond the scope of the average English reader's vocabulary. I replaced them with simpler synonyms ("professed purpose" and "place"). Please, people, if a legit edit is made, and you want to reverse it, explain yourself in the talk pages! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brw12 ( talk • contribs) 10 Feb 2006.
I would like those who argue that it is not antisemitic to deny Israel's right to exist to please certify for the record that one can argue that Egypt, Norway, Spain, Mexico, and any number of nation-states should be dismantled without causing offense to Egyptians, Norwegians, Spaniards, or Norwegians. Otherwise, it is patently apparent that denying Israel's right to exist is antisemitic. -- Leifern 20:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
It's actually a useful question, although not in this context. Leifern could perhaps ask himself whether it would be "antinorgist" to complain if Norway sent tanks into Sami villages or excluded the Sami people from its polity? James James 05:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I object to drawing up these analogies about other countries on the basis that it implicitly equalizes Israel with Judaism. The only way that these analogies would be applicable would be if we are asking whether denying Israel's right to exist is anti-Israeli rather than anti-semitic. An important difference. -- Dissident ( Talk) 00:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
To Leifern and others: Simply put, I am a Jew and I don't think any country that gives one group legal status over others is a very good idea, even if I am one of the beneficiaries. I would like to see the legal entity of Israel cease to exist and a non-ethnic-nationalist state with true pluralism take its place. Can I feel this only if I am secretly prejudiced against my own people?
Do you really think that the only reason someone could, say, oppose the idea of forming a Gypsy state, would be prejudice against the Gypsies? Do you really think that the only reason a Native American could criticize the right of the US to exist would be prejudice against white Americans?
The point is, there is more than one reasonable position on the matter. Brw12 13:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that the comparison between israeli-flag-burning is against jews generally. There are also Arabs and Christians who feel israelian, and a critique against the (-harsh!-) policy of Israel against Palestinians in the last years shouldn't be judged as antisemitic, nor of course be an excuse for "real" antisemitists. But telling that antisemitism is a sad caracteristic of France is a dumb cliché, and everyone who's ever lived in France will agree with me! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.76.9.36 ( talk • contribs) 20 Feb 2006.
Re: the poster at New anti-Semitism#Incidents in the United States. I actually hadn't noticed this before; I noticed it now because no one had bothered putting a license tag on the image; I've labeled it as {{ politicalposter}}. Sure strikes me as a variant on blood libel against Jews, especially the reference to "slaughtered according to Jewish Rites", suggesting that child-murder is a religious matter. Would it be legitimate to say as much in the article, or would that cross the line of original research? -- Jmabel | Talk 11:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe not, but I think it would be better to find a source that has noted it rather than point out the obvious. If no one ever has pointed it out, then it's OR to do so. I say this only as a matter of correctness so far as policy's concerned. It's as clear a case of the blood libel as you could wish to see (or not wish to see, if you know what I mean). James James 11:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is the president of the student union discussing action taken against what he describes as the section of the flier "suggesting the ancient 'blood libel'". Is The Forward acceptable? I'm not familiar enough with American newspapers to know whether this is a serious paper, but it seems to be one. In my view, sourcing to either would be okay. Other views? James James 00:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I have done quite a lot of work on this section and I hope it is now improved both from NPOV and references point of view. However, I do have a POV on these matters (especially relating to AUT) and so I hope other will take a look at what I've done and check that my POV has not unduly influenced what I've done.-- NHSavage 17:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Although I agree with SlimVirgin that accusations of anti-Semitism directed at the left are new, the article's examples of anti-Semitism are not primarily leftist denunciations of anti-Zionism, but rather a mixed bag of contemporary anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Consequently, I think that the introductory passages should match the article's content. The alternatives would be to clarify the introduction, so that the reader is clearer that we are talking about all kinds of accusations of contemporary anti-Semitism, or to remove from the article the "old" anti-Semitism, which is not perpetrated by the left. James James 00:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Woah! Have I made a mistake! I see an article that in several places describes anti-Semitic incidents, mostly of the old school, but in its introduction says that the charge of "new anti-Semitism" is primarily aimed at leftists. I didn't realise leftists were doing all the "verbal abuse, vandalism, desecration of property, abusive literature, threats and physical violence" reported by the Community Security Trust. I thought that was the same old people who've been doing it for a couple of thousand years. I didn't realise that the radical Islamists in France were leftists either. Nor that leftists had started accusing Jews of eating Christian babies. The sources that I found didn't say anything like that, but presumably, Viriditas's "research" has found something different. Naturally I won't revert this article again, and I'm taking it from my watchlist. James James 01:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
We need sources for all of these:
Here the anonymous "critics" are not speaking for themselves, but serving up strawman arguments for the wikipedia editors to shoot down. For each statement attributed to "critics" there should be some indication of which specific critic is speaking and that these are the terms the "critic" prefers to use. If, as I expect, these statements supposedly from "critics of the idea of a new anti-Semitism" cannot each be specifically sourced, they should be removed. If they will not be removed, they should be replaced with stronger arguments. TopRank 04:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The article currently bears the {{ totallydisputed}} tag - who is disputing what? The tag has been there since October and if there is no dispute, then it should be removed. Izehar 10:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I've done my best to clean up the citations on this page into a reasonably uniform style. This added a lot of information, because title and author information was missing before for nearly all online citations. There were a few dead links. For some of these I could easily find appropriate substitutes. I'm afraid the Internet Archive was no use, possibly because some of these were too recent to be up there yet, or possibly because they aren't going to be archived. Without anything but a blind link, it was pretty hard to identify appropriate substitute citations.
Currently,
BTW, this new footnoting system is definitely a simplifier. I recommend it. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the characterization of Chomsky as an anarchist. His politics are more relevant here than his being a linguist (though I did not remove the fact that he is a linguist). If there was question whether Chomsky considers himself an anarchist (the terse edit summary suggests someone may have doubted this), I assume that the following will be more than adequate citation: [43] [44] [45] [46]. That's all from the website of Z magazine, to which he is an important contributor. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Those who describe Chomsky as Jewish are trying to increase the credibility of this holocust denier - since it is well known that many of the worst anti-semites are Jewish (cf. Adam Shapiro), any reference to Chomsky's "jewishness" is irrelevent and should be deleted. Incorrect 17:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
One of the made administrators has just deleted my edit regarding Chomsky being of Jewish origin. Interestingly, the sites in the article itself to Chomsky do not refer to his Jewishnes (sic) at all, merely refer to the definitins of "Jews". Another example of wikipedia being gamed by those with a pov. Incorrect 18:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I've restored Unbehagen's deletion that Islamic stores in the UK are increasingly stocking anti-Semitic material, including Mein Kampf. Unbehagen argues that, as this book is available in many large bookstores in the UK, its availability in Islamic stores is not surprising. However, there are no large Islamic stores in the UK selling books; those that do are very small and focus on material relevant to Islam. It's therefore notable that increasing numbers of them appear to believe that Mein Kampf has such relevance. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Notice the grammar mistake in the anti-Semitic cartoon:"Sharon will allows you..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bombshell ( talk • contribs) 21 Feb 2006.
I added a few tags for where citation is neede. This article lacks sources in a major way and in the same time it make sweeping arguments. Clean up is badly needed. // Liftarn 09:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I have added an external link to a very recent and equally insightful article on the New Anti-Semitism by the renowned British historian Bernard Lewis. Enjoy. Pecher Talk 22:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
For more examples of New Anti-Semitism, follow the repeated attemps of some Wikipedians to re-introduce the racist use of the word "Aryan" into Wikipedia. Follow the discussions here and see examples on the following articles: Persian people, Tajik people, Iranian peoples, Aryan, and Indo-Iranians. Your help would be appreciated. Aucaman Talk 03:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The "repeated attempts of some Wikipedians" to re-introduce the use of the word "Aryan" have very little to do with Anti-Semitism, and a lot to do with the increase in Indian and Iranian contributors, for whom the word labels an important aspect of their culture. Many of them, especially Indians, resent the association of the word with Nazism and wish to emphasise their "ownership" of it (to a lesser extent the same applies to the swastika). They also resent having to apologise for words and symbols used in their culture just because some people thousands miles away used them once for their own purposes. These users rarely have racist intentions in my experience, though they can sometimes be highly nationalistic. The Nazi use of the term Aryan was certainly anti-Semitic, because it functioned as a synonym for "non-Jew", but strictly speaking the specifically racist aspects of Nazism concerned their claims for the superiority of the Nordic race. Yet no-one gets worried about the use of the word "Nordic" on Wikpedia. Paul B 19:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
On February 18, 2006, User:Liftarn inserted no fewer than 19 {{fact}} requests for citation into the article. [47] In the majority of cases, the sentences in question were immediately preceded or followed by direct citations. In a small minority of cases the citations were in linked articles, or in were websites which had gone bad. In one case he inserted 3 requests for citation inside a direct quote from a source, and in another he actually added his own POV into a direct quotation! This is a gross abuse of the template and the editing process. Jayjg (talk) 06:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Liftarn
I've removed this quote from the "state of the controversy#examples cited" section:
This was added by Liftarn on January 12. [51] Apart from the fact that it's an undergraduate writing in a student newspaper, which makes it an inappropriate source, if you read the article, you'll see that it in fact says exactly the opposite of the impression given by the quote, namely that a lot of the anti-Zionism the writer encounters on campus boils down to "bigotry" and "fanaticism."
When selecting quotes, it's important to stay true to the original tone and intent of the piece. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the following from the page because it need one or more sources:
I'd be surprised if any reputable scholar in a relevant field were to argue that Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism is "strictly an epiphenomenon" of the Arab-Israeli conflict, given the anti-Semitism that predated the State of Israel. Bernard Lewis has pointed out that some leaders in the Muslim world are almost at pains to point out that they're anti-Semitic, not just anti-Israel, as a matter of national or personal pride. For example, after President Khatami of Iran denied that his govt was anti-Semitic, a newspaper known to express the views of Khamenei appeared to correct him, saying it was important not to exaggerate the difference between the Jews and the Zionist regime because: "[t]he history of the beginnings of Islam is full of Jewish plots against the Prophet Muhammad and of murderous attacks by Jews ..." Lewis also cites the daughter of President Nasser, who complained about a film portraying her father as anti-Zionist but not anti-Semitic. Lewis writes (quoting a newspaper article about the incident): "she objected to a passage in [the] film indicating that 'Nasser was not against the Jews, but against Zionism, because she wanted to portray her father as a hero of the anti-Jewish struggle'." (Lewis in Those who forget the past by Ron Rosenbaum (ed)) It could still be argued that, although it's clearly anti-Semitism and not just opposition to the govt of Israel, it's still only an outgrowth of the latter, but it's a difficult position to maintain, so it'd be good to attribute it. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:33, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone interested in writing on the question of why Ariel Sharon is held responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre, but Elie Hobeika, who actually ordered the killings, was not. My understanding is that Hobeika was well-received in various European capitals where Sharon is persona non grata. This seems to be support the argument that anti-Zionism relies on double-standards with respect to human rights.
Adam Holland 18:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
IDENTIFICATION OF ANTISEMITIC STATEMENTS AS "JEWS"
Some who edit consider it important that those attacking Jews be called "Jews," as if a person of Jewish origin is incapable of being anti semitic or anti Jewish. It is clear that many of Jewish ancestry are among the most vehement anti semites, cf. Adam Shapiro; it therefor adds nothing to an anti semites credibility to label him/her as Jewish - such identification should be deleted, or, as I have done, indicated that the person is of Jewish heritage but does not follow the Jewish faith nor identify with the Jewish people. Incorrect 17:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)