This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT ADD BELOW. Merge discussion at Talk:MetroStars
As do I. StarryEyes 20:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC) No way in hell. DR31 ( talk) 15:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC) I support merging the articles. SpikeZoft 07:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC) As a Metrostars fan for 10 years, no. Never. I'll edit that crap every day. This is not the Metrostars. User:Bonbag I support merging the articles. Gutbomb 14:05, 10 March 2006 (UTC) As far as the league is concerned, the games played and goals scored by the Metrostars are Red Bull New Yorks statistical records as well, as evidenced in Red Bull New York's 2005 Stats
I support a merge 'cause metros history is the red bulls history. |
This page should stay here to preserve the MetroStars from 1996-2005. DR31 ( talk) 13:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
From newyorkredbulls.com: Over 750 people registered for a free trip to Washington to see the Red Bulls' first-ever game against D.C. United. As far as I know, the MetroStars and DC played at least 45 times through the 10 years. Yes, they really intend to keep the history of the franchise. NOT. It's lip service, if anything. DR31 ( talk) 14:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
They are right. It is the first ever Red Bulls game. All other games played by this club has been as the Metrostars. KitHutch 01:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that this page should be merged with Red Bull New York. The new owners are not erasing the history of the franchise. It's just a name change. KitHutch 17:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, see my comments above. -- Ellis kev 17:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
No. MetroStars history should be preserved. A key point is that although RB uses Metro history (now), they can re-write it (witness last week's articles on MLSnet already: Red Bulls sign Canadian national team midfielder Adrian Serioux). Ummm... no. And then they can go back and say RBNY is not Metro, who knows what the long-term plan is. Let's not rewrite history on Wikipedia. This page will cover Metro from 1996-2005, and the rest can go on living on RBNY page. Trust me, from someone who knows a lot about this deal: it's more than just a name change. DR31 ( talk) 18:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I support the merge. There's precedent here; Washington Bullets redirects to Washington Wizards, for instance. This is the easiest and most logical way. It's the same franchise, just a different name. It's comparable to, say, a woman with an article on Wikipedia who gets married and changes her name. We don't retain an article with her old name just for the sake of past history. The voting going on here is a bit sloppy, could we organize it a little better? StarryEyes 20:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
DR31, perhaps you can edit Red Bull New York to explain how this deal is unprecedented? Having edited with you for a while on Wikipedia, I'm inclined to trust your judgement on this, but making it clear could demonstrate exactly why a merge is a poor solution. howch e ng { chat} 20:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As of right now, I support a merge here. Dr31, please go into more detail about why this is more like the Wimbledon-Milton Keynes example than others. As of right now, the basis of your argument lies the possibility of you excersizing your right to leave and in "trusting" you on items you cannot "delve into." This message is not meant to be hostile and I honestly want to hear more about your side of the arguement. If you can give some more details on why this is more than a transfer and a name change, I will be more than happy to back you up in a fight against the merge. Cheers. youngamerican ( talk) 21:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, and I support a merge. Red Bull New York is officially the same team as the Metrostars, just renamed. There should only be one page for each team, and RBNY/Metros are the same team. I know this site has a page for the Montreal Expos, but that decision is wrong. It's common sense. You're letting your emotions get in the way of facts. -- Scaryice 04:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
So there are precedents either way for a merge or a redirect. Regardless, whichever way is chosen now you can always undo it later, so there's no real need for this debate to get too heated. At this point I think that the arguments for a merge are more analytical and those for separate articles are more passionate. Given the emotion, I say let's leave them as separate articles. If it turns out to be a dumb idea, you can always merge it in the future. howch e ng { chat} 16:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I support the merge. The new club is keeping the history of the old one, just as the Los Angeles Dodgers kept the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers, the Brooklyn Robins, the Brooklyn Bridegrooms and all the other names the team used. If the Seattle Pilots are part of the Milwaukee Brewers' page, and the St. Louis Browns are part of the Baltimore Orioles' page, then why separate these two versions of the same franchise? Chancemichaels 17:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
Support It is the same franchise, just a new name. That's what the owners, both old and new, hte GM the coach the league commissioner, etc. have all said. Look, I'm sorry to see the nifty Red and Black unis go, but this team is the same franchise! -- oknazevad 18:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it obvious no solution will be reached? And I thought Wikipedia was not about rewriting history. DR31 ( talk) 18:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
New ownership purchasing a team and coming up with a new name and direction has happened previously in sports history. The fact that the franschise was not disbanded and restarted , regardless of what the new ownership is saying, means that Red Bull New York is simply the 2006 version of the 2005 MetroStars. There is ample precedent to make the name change a redirect, which has been done in almost all cases. The fact that the two articles overlap for 98% of their content only proves that these are duplicate articles. Just look at the article for the "New" team and tell me how it differs? Do fans like the new name and direction? Who cares? It's irrelevant. This makes no more sense than having separate article for Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali. The answer is simple: Merge the trivial difference into the Red Bull New York article and redirect. If, in the future, there is a real justification to separate the article, then the MetroStars content from the Rd Bull New York article should be pulled out, reinserted into the MetroStars article and the redirect removed. Until then, the fact that there is huge amounts of duplicate information in the two articles says that they're one and the same. If the articles must exist as separate article, draw a sharp line and split the content between the two. Alansohn 17:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As a UK football fan who has only just become aware of this situation (after finding out I could watch the Red Bulls/DC United game ofr free), and looked up the rebranding on wikipedia, having two articles seems simply bizarre. It's effectively nothing more than a name change; they're not two separate clubs, and it seems to me that there should be a "Red Bull New York" page with a footnote ragrding the previous name. -- Cruci 22:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
STRONG MERGE MetroStars and Red Bull New York are the same team. If you don't like the name support another team. Red Bull has officially stated that they are keeping their old history. Comedy240 00:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Keep apart I say keep the two articles apart, but edit down the Metrostars article. You don't need the list of coaches, GMs, team records, or other lists on the Metrostars page. KitHutch 01:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
keep apart I'm a Metrostars fan and will always be. Red Bull New York is just a team with some guys that used to play for the Metrostars. Judging from their attendance, it's dropped from over 15,000 down into the 9,000's, a lot of people agree with me. (this comment by 24.187.110.156 04:20, 9 August 2006)
Is there any precedent for either keeping them apart or putting them together. For instance, Red Bull bought an Austrian team and those team pages are merged. I tend think that they should be merged, but if there is a history of football teams or other sport teams staying apart then I am fine with keeping this way.
Remember, this isn't a matter of whether you like the new name or ownership, this is about the history of the team.
-- Rballou 13:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
MERGE - The team history is the same according to everbody in the organization and MLS. Definitely should be merged. 192.160.62.60 18:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Merge - I agree with Rballou. It is not about the fan's opionons, it is about the facts. (64.12.116.13 00:00 , 10 August 2006)
KEEP APART - I discussed the issue at length on Talk:MetroStars when the team was re-branded. I also edited the MetroStars to not contain duplicate info, you can see the example here: [2]. It was called a good compromise on Talk:MetroStars. I will repeat again: there is enough history and enough difference to keep the two pages apart. It is not what "one fan" thinks, it is the opinion of a large percentage of fans, and it's also the opinion of Red Bull, who is trying their best to erase Metro history (just visit the RBNY office if you need a clue on what they think of Metro). There is NO HARM for Wikipedia in trying to preserve Metro history with their own page. As for examples of St. Louis Browns or whatever, there's always Quebec Nordiques and Hartford Whalers, which are much more recent and much more relevant. DR31 ( talk) 18:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
KEEP SEPERATE! The Metros are a totally different team with their OWN fans, many fans who were there in the beginning are now GONE. And RB has gained NEW fans. This alone should keep the pages seperate as there is a group out there totally doveted to Metro and Metro alone. RBNY is not even a REAL team its a "product" and their fans arent "fans" are "customers". Why merge that shitty ass team with a team who atleast tried to be a REAL Soccer Club? User:Metro4LIFE
Previously, I had said merge outright, and still do. For a simple reason: the team _didn't move_, unlike other North American examples given, like the Quebec Nordiques/ Colorado Avalanche, meaning that a highly distinct break between the old and the new doesn't exist. And European clubs and North American franchises are very differently organized (see Professional sports league organization for a good description), so a comparison between an American team and a European one is apples and oranges.
The idea of a short MetroStars page to commemorate the teams history under that name is a little iffy, as it was only 10 years, a very short time when dealing with something as long-lived as sports teams. I expect this team to be around for a long time, especially with the new stadium coming, and very shortly the fact that it originally had a different name will be about as remembered as the New York Titans.
Also having a separate MetroStars page helps reinforce the false notion that we're talking about 2 separate teams. For the last time, THEY ARE NOT SEPARATE TEAMS!!!! The old owners, the new owners, the league, the press all agree. The only ones who seem not to are a small but vocal group. Yes, the team was sold (happens all the time in N.A. sports), and yes, it was renamed (not unheard of), and in many ways, that's a good thing. The team was ridiculously poorly run for most of its fist ten years, and the Metro name had an air of losing about it. And it was corporate, too, being named for Metromedia, the company of original owner John Kluge. So while it may be fondly remembered by some, the team, the _same_ team changed its name. That's just the way it is. oknazevad 21:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Since there will obviously be no resolution here (the vote is 5:5) and the discussion has been going on for a week, I will use the Wikipedia policy (a few extra votes will not provide a clear majority; besides, Wikipedia is not a democracy), remove the merge signs, revert the MetroStars page to where to a compormised situation that worked for both sides. I know some have strong feelings about this one way or another, but I have worked on the MetroStars and the RBNY pages more than anyone else for the past 2+ years, so as the Wikipedia "owner" of the pages, and as someone who has worked with the club before and after it sale, I feel like I am a little more qualified to make the decision here than the others. When I have a little more time, I will add detailed Metro history into the MetroStars article. Of course, anyone with enough knowledge on the subject is welcome to do the same. DR31 ( talk) 03:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The result was merge into Red Bull New York. -- JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be merged because the red bulls history is the metros history after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NYRB ( talk • contribs) 02:25, March 15, 2007 (UTC)
Abse
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT ADD BELOW. Merge discussion at Talk:MetroStars
As do I. StarryEyes 20:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC) No way in hell. DR31 ( talk) 15:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC) I support merging the articles. SpikeZoft 07:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC) As a Metrostars fan for 10 years, no. Never. I'll edit that crap every day. This is not the Metrostars. User:Bonbag I support merging the articles. Gutbomb 14:05, 10 March 2006 (UTC) As far as the league is concerned, the games played and goals scored by the Metrostars are Red Bull New Yorks statistical records as well, as evidenced in Red Bull New York's 2005 Stats
I support a merge 'cause metros history is the red bulls history. |
This page should stay here to preserve the MetroStars from 1996-2005. DR31 ( talk) 13:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
From newyorkredbulls.com: Over 750 people registered for a free trip to Washington to see the Red Bulls' first-ever game against D.C. United. As far as I know, the MetroStars and DC played at least 45 times through the 10 years. Yes, they really intend to keep the history of the franchise. NOT. It's lip service, if anything. DR31 ( talk) 14:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
They are right. It is the first ever Red Bulls game. All other games played by this club has been as the Metrostars. KitHutch 01:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that this page should be merged with Red Bull New York. The new owners are not erasing the history of the franchise. It's just a name change. KitHutch 17:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, see my comments above. -- Ellis kev 17:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
No. MetroStars history should be preserved. A key point is that although RB uses Metro history (now), they can re-write it (witness last week's articles on MLSnet already: Red Bulls sign Canadian national team midfielder Adrian Serioux). Ummm... no. And then they can go back and say RBNY is not Metro, who knows what the long-term plan is. Let's not rewrite history on Wikipedia. This page will cover Metro from 1996-2005, and the rest can go on living on RBNY page. Trust me, from someone who knows a lot about this deal: it's more than just a name change. DR31 ( talk) 18:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I support the merge. There's precedent here; Washington Bullets redirects to Washington Wizards, for instance. This is the easiest and most logical way. It's the same franchise, just a different name. It's comparable to, say, a woman with an article on Wikipedia who gets married and changes her name. We don't retain an article with her old name just for the sake of past history. The voting going on here is a bit sloppy, could we organize it a little better? StarryEyes 20:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
DR31, perhaps you can edit Red Bull New York to explain how this deal is unprecedented? Having edited with you for a while on Wikipedia, I'm inclined to trust your judgement on this, but making it clear could demonstrate exactly why a merge is a poor solution. howch e ng { chat} 20:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As of right now, I support a merge here. Dr31, please go into more detail about why this is more like the Wimbledon-Milton Keynes example than others. As of right now, the basis of your argument lies the possibility of you excersizing your right to leave and in "trusting" you on items you cannot "delve into." This message is not meant to be hostile and I honestly want to hear more about your side of the arguement. If you can give some more details on why this is more than a transfer and a name change, I will be more than happy to back you up in a fight against the merge. Cheers. youngamerican ( talk) 21:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, and I support a merge. Red Bull New York is officially the same team as the Metrostars, just renamed. There should only be one page for each team, and RBNY/Metros are the same team. I know this site has a page for the Montreal Expos, but that decision is wrong. It's common sense. You're letting your emotions get in the way of facts. -- Scaryice 04:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
So there are precedents either way for a merge or a redirect. Regardless, whichever way is chosen now you can always undo it later, so there's no real need for this debate to get too heated. At this point I think that the arguments for a merge are more analytical and those for separate articles are more passionate. Given the emotion, I say let's leave them as separate articles. If it turns out to be a dumb idea, you can always merge it in the future. howch e ng { chat} 16:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I support the merge. The new club is keeping the history of the old one, just as the Los Angeles Dodgers kept the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers, the Brooklyn Robins, the Brooklyn Bridegrooms and all the other names the team used. If the Seattle Pilots are part of the Milwaukee Brewers' page, and the St. Louis Browns are part of the Baltimore Orioles' page, then why separate these two versions of the same franchise? Chancemichaels 17:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
Support It is the same franchise, just a new name. That's what the owners, both old and new, hte GM the coach the league commissioner, etc. have all said. Look, I'm sorry to see the nifty Red and Black unis go, but this team is the same franchise! -- oknazevad 18:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it obvious no solution will be reached? And I thought Wikipedia was not about rewriting history. DR31 ( talk) 18:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
New ownership purchasing a team and coming up with a new name and direction has happened previously in sports history. The fact that the franschise was not disbanded and restarted , regardless of what the new ownership is saying, means that Red Bull New York is simply the 2006 version of the 2005 MetroStars. There is ample precedent to make the name change a redirect, which has been done in almost all cases. The fact that the two articles overlap for 98% of their content only proves that these are duplicate articles. Just look at the article for the "New" team and tell me how it differs? Do fans like the new name and direction? Who cares? It's irrelevant. This makes no more sense than having separate article for Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali. The answer is simple: Merge the trivial difference into the Red Bull New York article and redirect. If, in the future, there is a real justification to separate the article, then the MetroStars content from the Rd Bull New York article should be pulled out, reinserted into the MetroStars article and the redirect removed. Until then, the fact that there is huge amounts of duplicate information in the two articles says that they're one and the same. If the articles must exist as separate article, draw a sharp line and split the content between the two. Alansohn 17:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As a UK football fan who has only just become aware of this situation (after finding out I could watch the Red Bulls/DC United game ofr free), and looked up the rebranding on wikipedia, having two articles seems simply bizarre. It's effectively nothing more than a name change; they're not two separate clubs, and it seems to me that there should be a "Red Bull New York" page with a footnote ragrding the previous name. -- Cruci 22:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
STRONG MERGE MetroStars and Red Bull New York are the same team. If you don't like the name support another team. Red Bull has officially stated that they are keeping their old history. Comedy240 00:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Keep apart I say keep the two articles apart, but edit down the Metrostars article. You don't need the list of coaches, GMs, team records, or other lists on the Metrostars page. KitHutch 01:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
keep apart I'm a Metrostars fan and will always be. Red Bull New York is just a team with some guys that used to play for the Metrostars. Judging from their attendance, it's dropped from over 15,000 down into the 9,000's, a lot of people agree with me. (this comment by 24.187.110.156 04:20, 9 August 2006)
Is there any precedent for either keeping them apart or putting them together. For instance, Red Bull bought an Austrian team and those team pages are merged. I tend think that they should be merged, but if there is a history of football teams or other sport teams staying apart then I am fine with keeping this way.
Remember, this isn't a matter of whether you like the new name or ownership, this is about the history of the team.
-- Rballou 13:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
MERGE - The team history is the same according to everbody in the organization and MLS. Definitely should be merged. 192.160.62.60 18:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Merge - I agree with Rballou. It is not about the fan's opionons, it is about the facts. (64.12.116.13 00:00 , 10 August 2006)
KEEP APART - I discussed the issue at length on Talk:MetroStars when the team was re-branded. I also edited the MetroStars to not contain duplicate info, you can see the example here: [2]. It was called a good compromise on Talk:MetroStars. I will repeat again: there is enough history and enough difference to keep the two pages apart. It is not what "one fan" thinks, it is the opinion of a large percentage of fans, and it's also the opinion of Red Bull, who is trying their best to erase Metro history (just visit the RBNY office if you need a clue on what they think of Metro). There is NO HARM for Wikipedia in trying to preserve Metro history with their own page. As for examples of St. Louis Browns or whatever, there's always Quebec Nordiques and Hartford Whalers, which are much more recent and much more relevant. DR31 ( talk) 18:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
KEEP SEPERATE! The Metros are a totally different team with their OWN fans, many fans who were there in the beginning are now GONE. And RB has gained NEW fans. This alone should keep the pages seperate as there is a group out there totally doveted to Metro and Metro alone. RBNY is not even a REAL team its a "product" and their fans arent "fans" are "customers". Why merge that shitty ass team with a team who atleast tried to be a REAL Soccer Club? User:Metro4LIFE
Previously, I had said merge outright, and still do. For a simple reason: the team _didn't move_, unlike other North American examples given, like the Quebec Nordiques/ Colorado Avalanche, meaning that a highly distinct break between the old and the new doesn't exist. And European clubs and North American franchises are very differently organized (see Professional sports league organization for a good description), so a comparison between an American team and a European one is apples and oranges.
The idea of a short MetroStars page to commemorate the teams history under that name is a little iffy, as it was only 10 years, a very short time when dealing with something as long-lived as sports teams. I expect this team to be around for a long time, especially with the new stadium coming, and very shortly the fact that it originally had a different name will be about as remembered as the New York Titans.
Also having a separate MetroStars page helps reinforce the false notion that we're talking about 2 separate teams. For the last time, THEY ARE NOT SEPARATE TEAMS!!!! The old owners, the new owners, the league, the press all agree. The only ones who seem not to are a small but vocal group. Yes, the team was sold (happens all the time in N.A. sports), and yes, it was renamed (not unheard of), and in many ways, that's a good thing. The team was ridiculously poorly run for most of its fist ten years, and the Metro name had an air of losing about it. And it was corporate, too, being named for Metromedia, the company of original owner John Kluge. So while it may be fondly remembered by some, the team, the _same_ team changed its name. That's just the way it is. oknazevad 21:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Since there will obviously be no resolution here (the vote is 5:5) and the discussion has been going on for a week, I will use the Wikipedia policy (a few extra votes will not provide a clear majority; besides, Wikipedia is not a democracy), remove the merge signs, revert the MetroStars page to where to a compormised situation that worked for both sides. I know some have strong feelings about this one way or another, but I have worked on the MetroStars and the RBNY pages more than anyone else for the past 2+ years, so as the Wikipedia "owner" of the pages, and as someone who has worked with the club before and after it sale, I feel like I am a little more qualified to make the decision here than the others. When I have a little more time, I will add detailed Metro history into the MetroStars article. Of course, anyone with enough knowledge on the subject is welcome to do the same. DR31 ( talk) 03:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The result was merge into Red Bull New York. -- JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be merged because the red bulls history is the metros history after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NYRB ( talk • contribs) 02:25, March 15, 2007 (UTC)
Abse