![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I shall bring up once again the issue of the name of this article. While New York City may not be the official name, it is a much less awkward article title than New York, New York, which is rather silly in any case. Mexico City's official name translated would be "City of Mexico". Even more so, Guatemala City is not officially called that (the word "City" or "Ciudad" does not appear in the name of that city). So far as I am aware, the capital of Panama is simply Panama, but we call it "Panama City". By the standards of this article, the last two, at least, should be Guatemala, Guatemala and Panama, Panama. So why not New York City, again? john 08:47, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Naming conventions of U.S. cities are different than that of foriegn cities. WhisperToMe 23:09, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Vote on the name? Fredrik 18:45, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This is a poll on where to place the article. Currently, the article is located at New York, New York. There are five choices for the name:
There is discussion scattered throughout this Talk page on the subject. The poll opened May 1, 2004; the poll closes May 8, 2004. Please vote below. -- Lowellian
The poll is now closed. Final results: 15/17/0/1/0. New York City has two more votes than New York, New York. So, what is to be done? Discuss below in Talk page. -- Lowellian 19:09, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
New York, New York
New York City
New York City, New York
New York (city)
New York, NY
Is there anywhere that would be a good location to bring up the whole question of this kind of issue for city names? Because I think the current policy for American, Canadian, and apparently Japanese, cities is deeply mistaken. john 01:12, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
The current policy originated from many smaller cities sharing names in those three countries. One way that the policy may have occurred was, "Gah, let's just use this convention for all cities, since it is tiresome to choose which city to lengthen the title of over and over again" - and in the U.S., this was often the case. WhisperToMe 01:15, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
Britannica has Los Angeles and New York City. Columbia has New York and Los Angeles. I would be fine with New York (city), as well, if you'd prefer that, but only so long as the state is moved to New York (state). john 01:32, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
If naming conventions for the three countries change in favor of simpler entries, then I would be in favor of that. WhisperToMe 01:44, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
The standard in the U.S. for naming cities is the [City, State] format - this is the standard that the US Postal service uses as well as just about everybody else in the US (so much so that many of us refer to Paris as Paris, France). The reason why this is needed is due to the fact that city names in the U.S. are not at all unique - there are literally dozens of cities and towns with just about any U.S. city name you can think of - thus we preemptively disambiguate them all. The name of this city is New York, and to distinguish it from other things called New York we use this standard as well. I see no reason why this U.S. city should have special treatment and all the other 35,000+ should be be in the standard format. We have also already gone over this at great length well over a year ago on the mailing list and developed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names) as a result. Other names, especially non-federal ones, do not have such a severe naming conflict issue as to require a naturally (outside of Wikipedia)-developed standard for disambiguation. We should follow outside standards like this whenever they solve real issues we have here. -- mav 02:03, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
The standard that the US postal service uses? What kind of bogus nonsense is that? People call Chicago Chicago, people call Los Angeles Los Angeles, people call Boston Boston (although the English city of that name complicates that), people call Miami Miami. Yeah, the state is sometimes included, but not always. And, as I said before, and nobody has refuted, if the Miami article already redirects to Miami, Florida, then there's no need for the article to be at a disambiguating location. john 17:53, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
New York City
Boston
New Haven
Yonkers
Jersey City
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Annapolis
Virginia Beach (okay, I just made that one because there was no article there at all)
Charlottesville
Charlotte
Winston-Salem
Spartanburg
Atlanta
Jacksonville
Miami
Tallahassee
Pensacola
Fort Lauderdale
Sarasota
West Palm Beach
Nashville
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Biloxi
Louisville
Cincinnati
Detroit
Battle Creek
Ann Arbor
Indianapolis
Chicago
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Little Rock
Baton Rouge
New Orleans
Shreveport
Houston
Galveston
Dallas
Fort Worth
Amarillo
Oklahoma City
Tulsa
Fargo
Sioux Falls
Denver
Colorado Springs
Tucson
Salt Lake City
Las Vegas
Carson City
Los Angeles
San Diego
San Francisco
Santa Barbara
San Luis Obispo
Sacramento
Seattle
Eugene
Fairbanks
Juneau
Sitka
Honolulu
Hilo.
In Canada you have
Toronto
Montreal
Vancouver
Winnipeg
Calgary
Edmonton
Quebec City (which, by the way, is no more the name of that city than
New York City is the name of New York)
Ottawa (which is, anomalously, the location of the main article)
Let me also note that, from my search for all these things, I notice that a) there has not been an aggressive attempt to make sure that the basic city names have articles or redirects at them, leading to some places not having articles at all, and me creating them (as I did with Virginia Beach) or, in some cases, to articles being created at those locations about cities with that name in other locations, or to other things called that, without any reference to the location (see Nome). Now, I'm not sure what this means. But this kind of sloppy "oh, there's only half a dozen famous enough to do that" is clearly nonsense. There's a lot of cities like that. I don't know that all of them ought to be moved - Eugene probably shouldn't even redirect to Eugene, Oregon. But I'll reassert that this absolutely isn't a policy which creates consistency. It's a policy which creates inconsistency. City names should just be at the city name, unless there is a need for disambiguation. john 06:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
New York is a special problem no matter how you slice it. There are three New Yorks in the U.S., state, city and county. City is in state, and county is in city. The entry for New York (county) redirects to Manhattan, but that's not exactly right. Manhattan is a [Political subdivisions of New York State|Borough|borough] of New York City; New York (county) is a subdivision of the state. Of course, county doesn't mean much in the context of NYC—e.g., there is no county executive, but there are still certain county functions—there is a sheriff, there is a county clerk who registers businesses, and so on. Cecropia 03:46, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
New York, New York has five counties, but those five counties have less power than those outside of New York, New York. Still, we shouldn't call New York, New York a county. WhisperToMe 04:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
Where was the recent discussion on this issue where a group of people tried and failed to resolve this issue via consensus finding and talk? Without such a discussion this vote is nothnig but a non-binding straw poll as far as I am concerned. Voting is something you do to resolve impasses - not something you do to stifle reasoned discussion. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Current polls. -- mav 03:20, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
As to polls, I think this is a serious issue. When a policy is agreed to, people who are involved in that decision feel that it is final, and then basically ignore any comments from those who disagree. As when I questioned the article's location before, and was essentially ignored. At least the poll has caused this stuff to be discussed. And I'd note that you're only discussing it here, where there's a poll. I invite everyone to discuss the current naming standard for US cities with me at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names). john 17:53, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
I just want to add that "New York, New York" is also the name of a hotel-casino in Las Vegas, a song, a musical, and a film, whereas "New York City" is unambiguously the city. The article title should contain the word "city" to disambiguate the fact that the article is about the city, and not about any of these other things. "New York, New York" really should be a disambiguation page. Being consistent with all the other US cities is not as important as being clear about what the article is about. Nohat 17:51, 2004 May 5 (UTC)
Is the poll closed? If so, what are we to make of the results? 17-15 in favor of moving isn't anywhere near a consensus. Especially with the number of people who strenuously feel that the page should stay where it is... john 00:27, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Looks like the lack of consensus means to leave things the way they are. Rick K 00:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
That doesn't seem quite fair, either, though, does it? I mean, that means that to stay where it is, all you need is a sizeable minority, but to move it you need to get nearly everybody on board. I dunno. How about a vote?!? john 00:49, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Consensus certainly makes sense for things like deletion and featured articles, where there is a clear default option (don't delete, don't feature) but it doesn't make much sense for the location of an article, because there's no "default" place for an article to be (especially here, where the two policies of "most common name" and "City, State for US places" are contradictory). If more people want the article to be at a particular place, it should be there, regardless of where it is at the moment. (Otherwise we'd have loads of people putting articles at stupid titles, calling for votes and then claiming that lack of consensus [which is of course very hard to define] means that they should stay where they are.) Proteus (Talk) 09:12, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, that's my instinct as well. The problem is, the vote is currently so close that I could see us moving it, and then a bunch of people not previously involved coming and saying that it should have stayed, and shifting the balance, and then so on, with no stability at all. I'm not sure how to deal with this. john 09:43, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
There don't seem to be any major objections to New York, New York, so I'd say that does have consensus, despite a minority support. anthony (see warning)
I did some research, encouraged by the many good comments. A big objection is that "New York, New York," in spite of the fact that it is awkward (especially for linking) and no one calls it that. But it is also incorrect. The corporate name of the City is neither "New York" nor "New York City." It is "City of New York." This is especially important since 1898, when "New York" no longer consisted only of New York County but became the City of Greater New York. Calling it New York, New York is both incorrect and POV, because most of the City's population (over 75%) lives outside Manhattan.
A secondary objection is that it makes New York too "special." Well, New York is unusual both in its size and its long term position in the world--it is possibly the most famous city in the world--at least there is none more famus. But especially I note the comment "it is SERIOUS US bias to think that the American city is more important." Well why is it not SERIOUS EUROPEAN bias that London, Birmingham and Paris have no qualifier at all, not even county? Why do we have Birmingham in England as the many entry, but Birmingham, Alabama is a disambiguation. The US city is athe largest city in Alabama, the most important industrial city in the US south, is famous in both good and bad history, and its Metro area is almost as large as Birmingham, England.
So, we should reconsider. I propose that NYC be listed under its corporate name, which is unambiguous, and a lot less so that London, Birmingham and Paris. Cecropia
Erm, why would we want another poll exactly? We've already had one, and the majority of people want it at New York City (an option I see isn't even in this poll). Discussing whether a small majority should cause the page to be moved seems like a much more productive use of our time than having another poll. Proteus (Talk) 16:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Ah. I see. The vote doesn't go the way you want it to, so you decide to keep re-voting, over and over again, until you get it the way you want it. Rick K 20:15, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh, it looks to me as though the vote didn't go the way you wanted it to, but I guess I was only counting to see which option got more votes. john 20:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Hardly. If I tried to delete something listed on the VfD page on the basis of a 17-15 vote in favor of deletion, I'd have people trying to take my sysop access away on the grounds that I violated consensus. Consensus is all at Wikipedia, and 17-15 is not consensus. Rick K 21:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
But, as Proteus pointed out, this is not the same thing as deletion or adminship, where there's a clear default if consensus is not reached - don't delete, don't make into an admin. I was not aware that the titling of pages was subject to similar constraint. Either location is perfectly reasonable, so I see no basis why the current location should be accepted when a majority of those who voted feel that it should be at the other location. What if somebody had moved the page before the poll was called, and we had the same results (or opposite results, with 17-15 in favor of moving to New York, New York)? Would there be a lack of consensus requiring us to keep it there. Consensus makes sense for article content disputes, because that's not a zero sum game. It also makes sense for things like deletion and adminship, where there's a clear default position not to do anything. But on something totally zero sum like an article title, which anybody is allowed to move, anyway, I don't understand how anything beyond a majority can possibly be required - the page has to be one place or another, and I don't understand why the fact that it's currently here should have any particular bearing. john 21:47, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Because it's here because it was decided at some time in the past that it should be here. It's here because that's what Americans call it. It's here because we don't want to keep moving things back and forth depending on the winds of whim. It's here because that's where it should be. Rick K 22:18, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Bkonrad is sensible, I think. Nohat, while I understand the sentiment, there's no point in getting into a move war over this. john 23:15, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
What was that about no need for a move war again? This whole impasse convinces me further that the beast must be fought at its source - the US City naming policy itself! john 23:23, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
The article was originally at New York City. There is no consensus about whether it should be moved, therefore it should return to its original title. Nohat 23:48, 2004 May 9 (UTC)
No, other way around - no consensus to move is to keep it at New York, New York. I am frankly not too happy over this... WhisperToMe 00:01, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
When was this move made? It was more than a year ago, wasn't it? I'm not sure this is valid. At the same time, the idea that there has to be a consensus in such an instance seems dubious to me. I do think there needs to be a consensus as to what the results of the poll mean, which there is not as yet. john 00:48, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not going to get involved in "move warring" since in addition to the usual dumbness of edit warring it seems likely to lead to erroneous deletion of something important, but IMO when consensus can't be achieved we should go with whatever seems most "standard" for Wikipedia - which would be the New York, New York title, since there are so many other cities with that format. Bryan 02:28, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, we're getting nowhere. I'm having a hard time with this because I have no real sense of what the proper thing to do is. I'm deeply confused. I think Rick's view that page location is equivalent to VfD or a Featured Page or whatever, and that thus no page can be moved unless there is an 80% or whatever consensus to do so, is too pat, and too convenient to his own position. On the other hand, I'm not sure that moving the page is valid in this case either. So I have no idea. john 03:01, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I've been running through the talk history[ [2]] and, unless I missed something somewhere, can't find anything like a formal vote and consensus to have made this New York, New York instead of the more sensible and accurate City of New York in the first place. So saying we need a supermajority to change it back to its original name doesn't make sense. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
What was the point of having this vote when you were just going to go off and do what you wanted to do in the first place? And the discussion was at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names). And note that the date on that discussion is 20 Sep 2002. Rick K 03:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Technically, Nohat did what he wanted to do while John called for the vote. WhisperToMe 03:33, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I believe Lowellian and Fredrik called for the vote. Ga. This has become an impossible situation. I agree that having the page at City of New York makes no sense. john 03:40, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
[ [3]] on the vote here, it was 4 yes to 2 no for the U.S. naming convention. 66% yes to 33% no. WhisperToMe 05:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
4 to 2? That's an intensely small number of votes, and it was taken two years ago. I think this decision ought to be revisited. john 05:06, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I assume there were not that many people on WP back then. WhisperToMe 05:18, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
One would assume. Given the number of people who've raised concerns with the policy recently, I think a new vote is absolutely in order - as I said at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names), I think this would be beneficial no matter how the vote turns out - I don't see a policy decided two years ago by four people as having any particular validity when more than four people are currently objecting to it. If a new vote showed solid support for this policy, I think it would be much harder for me and others to argue against it. john 05:34, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree: 4 to 2 seems more like an opinion in an ad hoc discussion group than any kind of consensus. Still in all, even if [City, State} is appropriate in most cases (as disambiguation), this seems foolish for well-known places. To state it yet again again, London, Rome, Berlin, and on and on, don't even have country names attached, even though there are other Londons, Romes and Berlins around the world. -- Cecropia | Talk 05:39, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
To state yet again, specific naming policies override general ones. And in addition, there are cities out there which some would consider a world city, and that others wouldn't. WhisperToMe 05:49, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are not among these. At any rate, to state yet again, this "specific naming policy" is based on the votes of four people two years ago. It ought to be revisited. john 05:53, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Maybe not, but what about Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania? Should it recieve special treatment? WhisperToMe 05:56, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
There is no other notable city named Pittsburgh. It should be at Pittsburgh. Philadelphia, Detroit, Cincinnati, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Virginia Beach, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Santa Fe, and so on and so forth, have no particular reason not to be at those locations, either. I'd say that Boston and Cleveland, Ohio, which are named for places in England, have probably sufficiently outstripped their namesakes to warrant this treatment as well, although I'm ready to be convinced otherwise. I mean, I'd say that a city should have to either be a state capital or have more than 100,000 people or so to be considered for not having to be disambiguated. Once you get to that point, you should have to use normal disambiguation rules - are there other cities of that name? Is the largest city of that name sufficiently better known than the others to deserve the main article space? And so on. I see no reason to think this will cause any particular problems - it has not done so with the many cities in other world countries that we have articles on. john 06:04, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Or places named after people - Bismarck, North Dakota, Saint Louis, Missouri, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. I'd say that most of the 30,000 articles on US municipalities are almost certainly fine where they are. john 06:20, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Again, what constitutes as an "important city", and what doesn't? There are obvious ones, yes. But there are also not-so-obvious ones. This is a bit closer to rocket science than one thought... WhisperToMe 06:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I said state capitals and cities with populations of over 100,000 probably qualify as important. These should not be disambiguated unless a) there are multiple cities where it's hard to say that one is particularly more famous than the other; or b) the city has a secondary meaning deserving of its own encyclopedia article. When in doubt, disambiguate. john 06:29, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
But some people will not like seeing NYC get special preference in opposition to other cities, e.g. Los Angeles. Either way, this is a no-win issue. WhisperToMe 06:35, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh? We're saying do the same thing for Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. as for New York. We can address the question of, say, Tempe, when we get there. (assuming that people decide to revise the current policy). But perhaps this should all go at the Naming conventions page. I'm going to copy this discussion over there. john 06:37, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I didn't vote before because I'm OK with "New York, New York" (following the convention for city names) and I'm also OK with "New York City" (use the most common name). I think "City of New York" is terrible, though. It violates both those policies. Our article on Rhode Island is under that name, and includes the minor detail that "the official name is the 'State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations . . . .'" That seems sensible to me. The article on this city can mention in passing that its official name is "City of New York." Putting the article under that heading, though, would make about as much sense as having Rhode Island redirect to Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. In each case, there should be a redirect from the technically "accurate" name to where the article actually is. JamesMLane 06:53, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
My assumption is that Nohat put it here so that it would be at a neutral location that nobody particularly likes until we hash out whether it should be at New York, New York or New York City. john 07:07, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
While I could live with either New York, New York or New York City, in a vote I would be for the former. But then, I would prefer London, England, Paris, France, and such, despite the angry reaction this gets from Europeans. Anyone whe has ever sent a letter to someone in New York City has probably addressed it to "New York, NY" at the very least. And the song would not be called "New York, New York" if the city hadn't been first. (Plus, there are songs called "Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania" [a chart hit in 1952!] and "Gary, Indiana" [in the play "The Music Man"], and even one called "Wilkes-Barre, PA" [but you can say that that one is not "Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania"!]) One problem I have with votes is that not everyone who might be interested even knows a vote is being taken. There was one about Durham which made a decision that I oppose, but I never even heard of the vote till long after it took place -- BRG 14:49, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and as for the official name being "City of New York," is there any city in the USA whose official name is not "City of <something>"? -- BRG 14:55, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that City of New York is a silly location. john 15:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia works on consensus and there was no consensus to move this page from where it has been for nearly two years. There certainly was little to no support to move it to its "official title" - Wikipedia generally doesn't follow that. I will move this page back to where it has been for the longest amount of time in one day. -- mav
User:RickK moved New York City to New York, New York without discussing it first on the talk page and against the wishes of the majority of the votes in the poll. Nohat 23:16, 2004 May 9 (UTC)
This is just silly. john 23:26, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Learn what consensus means. Rick K 23:41, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
User:Nohat moved New York, New York to New York City, even though there was no clear consensus to make the move. In fact, the vote to make the move was only 17-15 in favor, far from a consensus. Rick K 23:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
How is this an abuse of admin authority? Any user could do this. john 23:25, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Deletion of New York City in order to make the move was inappropriate. Rick K 23:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Did this cause a loss of page history of the main article? If not, I think it's irrelevant. silsor 23:48, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
Nohat has now moved the article to City of New York, for which there was never a vote. Rick K 02:27, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I moved the article to its oldest name [4] until the debate about the name can be settled. Nohat 02:32, 2004 May 10 (UTC)
By the way, if you're going to have a move war, please correct the double redirects you leave in your wake. fabiform | talk 03:32, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Folks, I'm viewing this for the first time, so as a 15 year veteran of living in New York City, or NY, NY, or City of New York, here's a proposal. First, folks do indeed use New York, New York. We write it on our envelopes or when filling out order forms for online purchases, so it is not the rare beast some have made it out to be. However, this is usually used to refer to Manhattan addresses, so it can be confusing. The most common usage in non-postal application domains is New York City, which is the most succinct way of referring to living in one of the five boroughs. One hardly ever uses "City of New York" unless it's historical documentation or the full title of Columbia University. (In fact, it's even a joke for the comedy-troupe Columbia Marching Band to refer to NYC with the full "City of New York" title.)
Can we use Occam's Razor and have the main article at "New York City" (the same way we have Rome, London, Beijing) with redirects for "New York, New York" and "City of New York"? Fuzheado 18:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
It's only at City of New York because that was the apparent original location, and there's been no consensus as to whether it should be at "New York, New York" or "New York City". I agree with what you say. john 18:32, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Mav and RickK are because they want the article to fit the US cities convention. And so do I. WhisperToMe 00:54, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
And the rest of us want the article at New York City because it fits the use common names convention, because New York, New York is ambiguous and wrong, and because the US cities convention is a bad policy that isn't supported by consensus. Nohat 00:58, 2004 May 12 (UTC)
"Wrong" is POV, and New York, New York is not ambigous with any other cities, and the no. 1 definition is New York, New York.
Nohat, until the US Convention policy is overturned, I suggest you follow it.
The reason for keeping this article at New York, New York, is so that one will automatically know the "real location" of an article, and to make it easy for bots to edit it. In addition, the city's official name is "New York", sans the "city of". WhisperToMe 01:15, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Anthony, Iraq is only occupied by the United States. It is not an insular area. WhisperToMe 03:41, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Having standardized naming of US cities and towns is good for Wikipedia editors/contributors/builders because:
Having standardized naming of US cities and towns is basically a non-issue for people who simply use Wikipedia as a reference, because the redirects get them to the article regardless of what they type. If users do notice the standard, it's good because standardization instills more trust. Niteowlneils 01:25, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
A major sticking point in the debate above seems to be that that 17-15 vote was insufficient to some users to warrant a page move, whereas 15-17 was deemed sufficient for to move it back. This exposes the technological flaw that "consensus building" and bare either-or votes are incompatibile.
If other users are game, I suggest a voting style that was trialed over at Talk:English national football team and appeared to work well. Each potential option is listed. Then there is a list of people to whom this option is acceptable and to whom it is unacceptable. Each user may well find several options acceptable; it they have a favourite option they should highlight their name in bold. This approach is less adversial than the either/or approach.
Before beginning a poll, it is probably worth allowing time to lodge a complaint that another poll is not necessary because it is so soon after the last one, but I am of the opinion that that poll is dead in the water.
Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
If anyone has a factual basis to disagree with the following statements, please so indicate in sections following this. If there are further demonstrable facts, please expand the list so we can identify the facts which are generally accepted. Jamesday 11:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Why not move the article about the city to New York and have the state at New York (state) ? Morwen 19:01, May 12, 2004 (UTC)
From the recent comments here, it seems that the British opinion seems to be that the city is more significant than the state but the American opinion treats them roughly equally. I guess this fact reflects that the city is globally important, whereas the state (even though it contains the city!) isn't? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 08:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
There's much merit in this argument. If someone says that they are going to New York it's almost certain that they mean the city rather than the state, whether they are a US or non-US person, just as someone who says they are going to Washington will generally mean the city rather than the state unless they happen to be close to the state. With apologies to those in the rest of the state, as a British person, when I thought of New York prior to living within the state, I was invariably thinking of the city, not the state. The state was at that time a comparative nonentity as far as I was concerned, though of course that changed once I was within it and discovered more than the famous city.:) Jamesday 02:05, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I have heard complaints that New York, New York shouldn't be used because the postal system uses that for mail to Manhattan only.
But that doesn't hold up! If one looks here, http://www.littletongov.org/maps/zipcodes.asp, mail addressed to "Littleton, Colorado" may not necessairly actually be going to Littleton. As a matter of fact, Columbine High School is not in Littleton! The postal system's "cities" and the actual cities are different. WhisperToMe 03:21, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
True indeed. Which is why the fact that using city, state conforms to postal usage is not a very good reason that we should use it. john 05:01, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Not necessairly. "New York, New York" in postal refers to New York City, because at the time it was first established, it only had Manhattan.
Then in 1898, the new government was established, which additionally covers Brooklyn, Staten Island, and the neighborhoods of Queens.
In 1914, Brooklyn was separated from New York County, which is more evidence that the "New York, New York" refers to the city. WhisperToMe 05:14, 14 May 2004 (UTC) WhisperToMe 05:11, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh? When the postal name was created, New York City was only Manhattan. But that postal name continued to refer to only Manhattan, even after the city itself was enlarged to include the outer boroughs. john 05:22, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the postal name included the Bronx until some time in the 1960s. I remember when that happened. -- BRG 15:02, May 14, 2004 (UTC)
Huh, interesting. Well, clearly the situation is extremely complicated. So, basically. New York City=Manhattan=New York County=New York postal name up to the 1870s. From the 1870s to the 1890s New York City, New York County, and the New York postal name were expanded to include the Bronx. In 1898, New York City expanded to include Richmond County, King's County, and Queen's County. In 1914, Bronx County was split off from New York County, but remained part of the New York postal address until the 1960s... Is that accurate? john 17:29, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Here is what I sent earlier to
WhisperToMe. The only thing is I don't remember the Bronx still being New York, New York P.O. until the 1960s. It's not too complicated if you follow the timeline. And BTW, the Marble Hill anomoly is because of the digging of the Harlem River Boat Ship Canal:
I hope I'm not telling you what you already know, but:
There's actually even more behind the convoluted postal names. At the time of the 1898 consolidation what's now Kings County/Borough of Brooklyn was the City of Brooklyn. Queens, on the other hand, was not a city unto itself but rather, was home to many smaller villages towns and municipalities. That's why, to this day, Brooklynites from all neighborhoods recieve mail addressed to "Bklyn, NY" while Queens residents will always give addresses that reflect their neighborhoods' historical status: "Astoria, NY" and "Flushing, NY" for example.
Is Marble Hill part of Bronx County and the Borough of Manhattan, or part of the Borough of the Bronx and New York County? john 22:32, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I shall bring up once again the issue of the name of this article. While New York City may not be the official name, it is a much less awkward article title than New York, New York, which is rather silly in any case. Mexico City's official name translated would be "City of Mexico". Even more so, Guatemala City is not officially called that (the word "City" or "Ciudad" does not appear in the name of that city). So far as I am aware, the capital of Panama is simply Panama, but we call it "Panama City". By the standards of this article, the last two, at least, should be Guatemala, Guatemala and Panama, Panama. So why not New York City, again? john 08:47, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Naming conventions of U.S. cities are different than that of foriegn cities. WhisperToMe 23:09, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Vote on the name? Fredrik 18:45, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This is a poll on where to place the article. Currently, the article is located at New York, New York. There are five choices for the name:
There is discussion scattered throughout this Talk page on the subject. The poll opened May 1, 2004; the poll closes May 8, 2004. Please vote below. -- Lowellian
The poll is now closed. Final results: 15/17/0/1/0. New York City has two more votes than New York, New York. So, what is to be done? Discuss below in Talk page. -- Lowellian 19:09, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
New York, New York
New York City
New York City, New York
New York (city)
New York, NY
Is there anywhere that would be a good location to bring up the whole question of this kind of issue for city names? Because I think the current policy for American, Canadian, and apparently Japanese, cities is deeply mistaken. john 01:12, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
The current policy originated from many smaller cities sharing names in those three countries. One way that the policy may have occurred was, "Gah, let's just use this convention for all cities, since it is tiresome to choose which city to lengthen the title of over and over again" - and in the U.S., this was often the case. WhisperToMe 01:15, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
Britannica has Los Angeles and New York City. Columbia has New York and Los Angeles. I would be fine with New York (city), as well, if you'd prefer that, but only so long as the state is moved to New York (state). john 01:32, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
If naming conventions for the three countries change in favor of simpler entries, then I would be in favor of that. WhisperToMe 01:44, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
The standard in the U.S. for naming cities is the [City, State] format - this is the standard that the US Postal service uses as well as just about everybody else in the US (so much so that many of us refer to Paris as Paris, France). The reason why this is needed is due to the fact that city names in the U.S. are not at all unique - there are literally dozens of cities and towns with just about any U.S. city name you can think of - thus we preemptively disambiguate them all. The name of this city is New York, and to distinguish it from other things called New York we use this standard as well. I see no reason why this U.S. city should have special treatment and all the other 35,000+ should be be in the standard format. We have also already gone over this at great length well over a year ago on the mailing list and developed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names) as a result. Other names, especially non-federal ones, do not have such a severe naming conflict issue as to require a naturally (outside of Wikipedia)-developed standard for disambiguation. We should follow outside standards like this whenever they solve real issues we have here. -- mav 02:03, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
The standard that the US postal service uses? What kind of bogus nonsense is that? People call Chicago Chicago, people call Los Angeles Los Angeles, people call Boston Boston (although the English city of that name complicates that), people call Miami Miami. Yeah, the state is sometimes included, but not always. And, as I said before, and nobody has refuted, if the Miami article already redirects to Miami, Florida, then there's no need for the article to be at a disambiguating location. john 17:53, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
New York City
Boston
New Haven
Yonkers
Jersey City
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Annapolis
Virginia Beach (okay, I just made that one because there was no article there at all)
Charlottesville
Charlotte
Winston-Salem
Spartanburg
Atlanta
Jacksonville
Miami
Tallahassee
Pensacola
Fort Lauderdale
Sarasota
West Palm Beach
Nashville
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Biloxi
Louisville
Cincinnati
Detroit
Battle Creek
Ann Arbor
Indianapolis
Chicago
Milwaukee
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Little Rock
Baton Rouge
New Orleans
Shreveport
Houston
Galveston
Dallas
Fort Worth
Amarillo
Oklahoma City
Tulsa
Fargo
Sioux Falls
Denver
Colorado Springs
Tucson
Salt Lake City
Las Vegas
Carson City
Los Angeles
San Diego
San Francisco
Santa Barbara
San Luis Obispo
Sacramento
Seattle
Eugene
Fairbanks
Juneau
Sitka
Honolulu
Hilo.
In Canada you have
Toronto
Montreal
Vancouver
Winnipeg
Calgary
Edmonton
Quebec City (which, by the way, is no more the name of that city than
New York City is the name of New York)
Ottawa (which is, anomalously, the location of the main article)
Let me also note that, from my search for all these things, I notice that a) there has not been an aggressive attempt to make sure that the basic city names have articles or redirects at them, leading to some places not having articles at all, and me creating them (as I did with Virginia Beach) or, in some cases, to articles being created at those locations about cities with that name in other locations, or to other things called that, without any reference to the location (see Nome). Now, I'm not sure what this means. But this kind of sloppy "oh, there's only half a dozen famous enough to do that" is clearly nonsense. There's a lot of cities like that. I don't know that all of them ought to be moved - Eugene probably shouldn't even redirect to Eugene, Oregon. But I'll reassert that this absolutely isn't a policy which creates consistency. It's a policy which creates inconsistency. City names should just be at the city name, unless there is a need for disambiguation. john 06:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
New York is a special problem no matter how you slice it. There are three New Yorks in the U.S., state, city and county. City is in state, and county is in city. The entry for New York (county) redirects to Manhattan, but that's not exactly right. Manhattan is a [Political subdivisions of New York State|Borough|borough] of New York City; New York (county) is a subdivision of the state. Of course, county doesn't mean much in the context of NYC—e.g., there is no county executive, but there are still certain county functions—there is a sheriff, there is a county clerk who registers businesses, and so on. Cecropia 03:46, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
New York, New York has five counties, but those five counties have less power than those outside of New York, New York. Still, we shouldn't call New York, New York a county. WhisperToMe 04:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
Where was the recent discussion on this issue where a group of people tried and failed to resolve this issue via consensus finding and talk? Without such a discussion this vote is nothnig but a non-binding straw poll as far as I am concerned. Voting is something you do to resolve impasses - not something you do to stifle reasoned discussion. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Current polls. -- mav 03:20, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
As to polls, I think this is a serious issue. When a policy is agreed to, people who are involved in that decision feel that it is final, and then basically ignore any comments from those who disagree. As when I questioned the article's location before, and was essentially ignored. At least the poll has caused this stuff to be discussed. And I'd note that you're only discussing it here, where there's a poll. I invite everyone to discuss the current naming standard for US cities with me at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names). john 17:53, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
I just want to add that "New York, New York" is also the name of a hotel-casino in Las Vegas, a song, a musical, and a film, whereas "New York City" is unambiguously the city. The article title should contain the word "city" to disambiguate the fact that the article is about the city, and not about any of these other things. "New York, New York" really should be a disambiguation page. Being consistent with all the other US cities is not as important as being clear about what the article is about. Nohat 17:51, 2004 May 5 (UTC)
Is the poll closed? If so, what are we to make of the results? 17-15 in favor of moving isn't anywhere near a consensus. Especially with the number of people who strenuously feel that the page should stay where it is... john 00:27, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Looks like the lack of consensus means to leave things the way they are. Rick K 00:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
That doesn't seem quite fair, either, though, does it? I mean, that means that to stay where it is, all you need is a sizeable minority, but to move it you need to get nearly everybody on board. I dunno. How about a vote?!? john 00:49, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Consensus certainly makes sense for things like deletion and featured articles, where there is a clear default option (don't delete, don't feature) but it doesn't make much sense for the location of an article, because there's no "default" place for an article to be (especially here, where the two policies of "most common name" and "City, State for US places" are contradictory). If more people want the article to be at a particular place, it should be there, regardless of where it is at the moment. (Otherwise we'd have loads of people putting articles at stupid titles, calling for votes and then claiming that lack of consensus [which is of course very hard to define] means that they should stay where they are.) Proteus (Talk) 09:12, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, that's my instinct as well. The problem is, the vote is currently so close that I could see us moving it, and then a bunch of people not previously involved coming and saying that it should have stayed, and shifting the balance, and then so on, with no stability at all. I'm not sure how to deal with this. john 09:43, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
There don't seem to be any major objections to New York, New York, so I'd say that does have consensus, despite a minority support. anthony (see warning)
I did some research, encouraged by the many good comments. A big objection is that "New York, New York," in spite of the fact that it is awkward (especially for linking) and no one calls it that. But it is also incorrect. The corporate name of the City is neither "New York" nor "New York City." It is "City of New York." This is especially important since 1898, when "New York" no longer consisted only of New York County but became the City of Greater New York. Calling it New York, New York is both incorrect and POV, because most of the City's population (over 75%) lives outside Manhattan.
A secondary objection is that it makes New York too "special." Well, New York is unusual both in its size and its long term position in the world--it is possibly the most famous city in the world--at least there is none more famus. But especially I note the comment "it is SERIOUS US bias to think that the American city is more important." Well why is it not SERIOUS EUROPEAN bias that London, Birmingham and Paris have no qualifier at all, not even county? Why do we have Birmingham in England as the many entry, but Birmingham, Alabama is a disambiguation. The US city is athe largest city in Alabama, the most important industrial city in the US south, is famous in both good and bad history, and its Metro area is almost as large as Birmingham, England.
So, we should reconsider. I propose that NYC be listed under its corporate name, which is unambiguous, and a lot less so that London, Birmingham and Paris. Cecropia
Erm, why would we want another poll exactly? We've already had one, and the majority of people want it at New York City (an option I see isn't even in this poll). Discussing whether a small majority should cause the page to be moved seems like a much more productive use of our time than having another poll. Proteus (Talk) 16:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Ah. I see. The vote doesn't go the way you want it to, so you decide to keep re-voting, over and over again, until you get it the way you want it. Rick K 20:15, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh, it looks to me as though the vote didn't go the way you wanted it to, but I guess I was only counting to see which option got more votes. john 20:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Hardly. If I tried to delete something listed on the VfD page on the basis of a 17-15 vote in favor of deletion, I'd have people trying to take my sysop access away on the grounds that I violated consensus. Consensus is all at Wikipedia, and 17-15 is not consensus. Rick K 21:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
But, as Proteus pointed out, this is not the same thing as deletion or adminship, where there's a clear default if consensus is not reached - don't delete, don't make into an admin. I was not aware that the titling of pages was subject to similar constraint. Either location is perfectly reasonable, so I see no basis why the current location should be accepted when a majority of those who voted feel that it should be at the other location. What if somebody had moved the page before the poll was called, and we had the same results (or opposite results, with 17-15 in favor of moving to New York, New York)? Would there be a lack of consensus requiring us to keep it there. Consensus makes sense for article content disputes, because that's not a zero sum game. It also makes sense for things like deletion and adminship, where there's a clear default position not to do anything. But on something totally zero sum like an article title, which anybody is allowed to move, anyway, I don't understand how anything beyond a majority can possibly be required - the page has to be one place or another, and I don't understand why the fact that it's currently here should have any particular bearing. john 21:47, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Because it's here because it was decided at some time in the past that it should be here. It's here because that's what Americans call it. It's here because we don't want to keep moving things back and forth depending on the winds of whim. It's here because that's where it should be. Rick K 22:18, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Bkonrad is sensible, I think. Nohat, while I understand the sentiment, there's no point in getting into a move war over this. john 23:15, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
What was that about no need for a move war again? This whole impasse convinces me further that the beast must be fought at its source - the US City naming policy itself! john 23:23, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
The article was originally at New York City. There is no consensus about whether it should be moved, therefore it should return to its original title. Nohat 23:48, 2004 May 9 (UTC)
No, other way around - no consensus to move is to keep it at New York, New York. I am frankly not too happy over this... WhisperToMe 00:01, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
When was this move made? It was more than a year ago, wasn't it? I'm not sure this is valid. At the same time, the idea that there has to be a consensus in such an instance seems dubious to me. I do think there needs to be a consensus as to what the results of the poll mean, which there is not as yet. john 00:48, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not going to get involved in "move warring" since in addition to the usual dumbness of edit warring it seems likely to lead to erroneous deletion of something important, but IMO when consensus can't be achieved we should go with whatever seems most "standard" for Wikipedia - which would be the New York, New York title, since there are so many other cities with that format. Bryan 02:28, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, we're getting nowhere. I'm having a hard time with this because I have no real sense of what the proper thing to do is. I'm deeply confused. I think Rick's view that page location is equivalent to VfD or a Featured Page or whatever, and that thus no page can be moved unless there is an 80% or whatever consensus to do so, is too pat, and too convenient to his own position. On the other hand, I'm not sure that moving the page is valid in this case either. So I have no idea. john 03:01, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I've been running through the talk history[ [2]] and, unless I missed something somewhere, can't find anything like a formal vote and consensus to have made this New York, New York instead of the more sensible and accurate City of New York in the first place. So saying we need a supermajority to change it back to its original name doesn't make sense. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
What was the point of having this vote when you were just going to go off and do what you wanted to do in the first place? And the discussion was at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names). And note that the date on that discussion is 20 Sep 2002. Rick K 03:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Technically, Nohat did what he wanted to do while John called for the vote. WhisperToMe 03:33, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I believe Lowellian and Fredrik called for the vote. Ga. This has become an impossible situation. I agree that having the page at City of New York makes no sense. john 03:40, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
[ [3]] on the vote here, it was 4 yes to 2 no for the U.S. naming convention. 66% yes to 33% no. WhisperToMe 05:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
4 to 2? That's an intensely small number of votes, and it was taken two years ago. I think this decision ought to be revisited. john 05:06, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I assume there were not that many people on WP back then. WhisperToMe 05:18, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
One would assume. Given the number of people who've raised concerns with the policy recently, I think a new vote is absolutely in order - as I said at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names), I think this would be beneficial no matter how the vote turns out - I don't see a policy decided two years ago by four people as having any particular validity when more than four people are currently objecting to it. If a new vote showed solid support for this policy, I think it would be much harder for me and others to argue against it. john 05:34, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree: 4 to 2 seems more like an opinion in an ad hoc discussion group than any kind of consensus. Still in all, even if [City, State} is appropriate in most cases (as disambiguation), this seems foolish for well-known places. To state it yet again again, London, Rome, Berlin, and on and on, don't even have country names attached, even though there are other Londons, Romes and Berlins around the world. -- Cecropia | Talk 05:39, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
To state yet again, specific naming policies override general ones. And in addition, there are cities out there which some would consider a world city, and that others wouldn't. WhisperToMe 05:49, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are not among these. At any rate, to state yet again, this "specific naming policy" is based on the votes of four people two years ago. It ought to be revisited. john 05:53, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Maybe not, but what about Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania? Should it recieve special treatment? WhisperToMe 05:56, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
There is no other notable city named Pittsburgh. It should be at Pittsburgh. Philadelphia, Detroit, Cincinnati, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Virginia Beach, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Santa Fe, and so on and so forth, have no particular reason not to be at those locations, either. I'd say that Boston and Cleveland, Ohio, which are named for places in England, have probably sufficiently outstripped their namesakes to warrant this treatment as well, although I'm ready to be convinced otherwise. I mean, I'd say that a city should have to either be a state capital or have more than 100,000 people or so to be considered for not having to be disambiguated. Once you get to that point, you should have to use normal disambiguation rules - are there other cities of that name? Is the largest city of that name sufficiently better known than the others to deserve the main article space? And so on. I see no reason to think this will cause any particular problems - it has not done so with the many cities in other world countries that we have articles on. john 06:04, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Or places named after people - Bismarck, North Dakota, Saint Louis, Missouri, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. I'd say that most of the 30,000 articles on US municipalities are almost certainly fine where they are. john 06:20, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Again, what constitutes as an "important city", and what doesn't? There are obvious ones, yes. But there are also not-so-obvious ones. This is a bit closer to rocket science than one thought... WhisperToMe 06:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I said state capitals and cities with populations of over 100,000 probably qualify as important. These should not be disambiguated unless a) there are multiple cities where it's hard to say that one is particularly more famous than the other; or b) the city has a secondary meaning deserving of its own encyclopedia article. When in doubt, disambiguate. john 06:29, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
But some people will not like seeing NYC get special preference in opposition to other cities, e.g. Los Angeles. Either way, this is a no-win issue. WhisperToMe 06:35, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh? We're saying do the same thing for Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. as for New York. We can address the question of, say, Tempe, when we get there. (assuming that people decide to revise the current policy). But perhaps this should all go at the Naming conventions page. I'm going to copy this discussion over there. john 06:37, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I didn't vote before because I'm OK with "New York, New York" (following the convention for city names) and I'm also OK with "New York City" (use the most common name). I think "City of New York" is terrible, though. It violates both those policies. Our article on Rhode Island is under that name, and includes the minor detail that "the official name is the 'State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations . . . .'" That seems sensible to me. The article on this city can mention in passing that its official name is "City of New York." Putting the article under that heading, though, would make about as much sense as having Rhode Island redirect to Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. In each case, there should be a redirect from the technically "accurate" name to where the article actually is. JamesMLane 06:53, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
My assumption is that Nohat put it here so that it would be at a neutral location that nobody particularly likes until we hash out whether it should be at New York, New York or New York City. john 07:07, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
While I could live with either New York, New York or New York City, in a vote I would be for the former. But then, I would prefer London, England, Paris, France, and such, despite the angry reaction this gets from Europeans. Anyone whe has ever sent a letter to someone in New York City has probably addressed it to "New York, NY" at the very least. And the song would not be called "New York, New York" if the city hadn't been first. (Plus, there are songs called "Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania" [a chart hit in 1952!] and "Gary, Indiana" [in the play "The Music Man"], and even one called "Wilkes-Barre, PA" [but you can say that that one is not "Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania"!]) One problem I have with votes is that not everyone who might be interested even knows a vote is being taken. There was one about Durham which made a decision that I oppose, but I never even heard of the vote till long after it took place -- BRG 14:49, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and as for the official name being "City of New York," is there any city in the USA whose official name is not "City of <something>"? -- BRG 14:55, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that City of New York is a silly location. john 15:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia works on consensus and there was no consensus to move this page from where it has been for nearly two years. There certainly was little to no support to move it to its "official title" - Wikipedia generally doesn't follow that. I will move this page back to where it has been for the longest amount of time in one day. -- mav
User:RickK moved New York City to New York, New York without discussing it first on the talk page and against the wishes of the majority of the votes in the poll. Nohat 23:16, 2004 May 9 (UTC)
This is just silly. john 23:26, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Learn what consensus means. Rick K 23:41, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
User:Nohat moved New York, New York to New York City, even though there was no clear consensus to make the move. In fact, the vote to make the move was only 17-15 in favor, far from a consensus. Rick K 23:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
How is this an abuse of admin authority? Any user could do this. john 23:25, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Deletion of New York City in order to make the move was inappropriate. Rick K 23:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Did this cause a loss of page history of the main article? If not, I think it's irrelevant. silsor 23:48, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
Nohat has now moved the article to City of New York, for which there was never a vote. Rick K 02:27, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I moved the article to its oldest name [4] until the debate about the name can be settled. Nohat 02:32, 2004 May 10 (UTC)
By the way, if you're going to have a move war, please correct the double redirects you leave in your wake. fabiform | talk 03:32, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Folks, I'm viewing this for the first time, so as a 15 year veteran of living in New York City, or NY, NY, or City of New York, here's a proposal. First, folks do indeed use New York, New York. We write it on our envelopes or when filling out order forms for online purchases, so it is not the rare beast some have made it out to be. However, this is usually used to refer to Manhattan addresses, so it can be confusing. The most common usage in non-postal application domains is New York City, which is the most succinct way of referring to living in one of the five boroughs. One hardly ever uses "City of New York" unless it's historical documentation or the full title of Columbia University. (In fact, it's even a joke for the comedy-troupe Columbia Marching Band to refer to NYC with the full "City of New York" title.)
Can we use Occam's Razor and have the main article at "New York City" (the same way we have Rome, London, Beijing) with redirects for "New York, New York" and "City of New York"? Fuzheado 18:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
It's only at City of New York because that was the apparent original location, and there's been no consensus as to whether it should be at "New York, New York" or "New York City". I agree with what you say. john 18:32, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Mav and RickK are because they want the article to fit the US cities convention. And so do I. WhisperToMe 00:54, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
And the rest of us want the article at New York City because it fits the use common names convention, because New York, New York is ambiguous and wrong, and because the US cities convention is a bad policy that isn't supported by consensus. Nohat 00:58, 2004 May 12 (UTC)
"Wrong" is POV, and New York, New York is not ambigous with any other cities, and the no. 1 definition is New York, New York.
Nohat, until the US Convention policy is overturned, I suggest you follow it.
The reason for keeping this article at New York, New York, is so that one will automatically know the "real location" of an article, and to make it easy for bots to edit it. In addition, the city's official name is "New York", sans the "city of". WhisperToMe 01:15, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Anthony, Iraq is only occupied by the United States. It is not an insular area. WhisperToMe 03:41, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Having standardized naming of US cities and towns is good for Wikipedia editors/contributors/builders because:
Having standardized naming of US cities and towns is basically a non-issue for people who simply use Wikipedia as a reference, because the redirects get them to the article regardless of what they type. If users do notice the standard, it's good because standardization instills more trust. Niteowlneils 01:25, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
A major sticking point in the debate above seems to be that that 17-15 vote was insufficient to some users to warrant a page move, whereas 15-17 was deemed sufficient for to move it back. This exposes the technological flaw that "consensus building" and bare either-or votes are incompatibile.
If other users are game, I suggest a voting style that was trialed over at Talk:English national football team and appeared to work well. Each potential option is listed. Then there is a list of people to whom this option is acceptable and to whom it is unacceptable. Each user may well find several options acceptable; it they have a favourite option they should highlight their name in bold. This approach is less adversial than the either/or approach.
Before beginning a poll, it is probably worth allowing time to lodge a complaint that another poll is not necessary because it is so soon after the last one, but I am of the opinion that that poll is dead in the water.
Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
If anyone has a factual basis to disagree with the following statements, please so indicate in sections following this. If there are further demonstrable facts, please expand the list so we can identify the facts which are generally accepted. Jamesday 11:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Why not move the article about the city to New York and have the state at New York (state) ? Morwen 19:01, May 12, 2004 (UTC)
From the recent comments here, it seems that the British opinion seems to be that the city is more significant than the state but the American opinion treats them roughly equally. I guess this fact reflects that the city is globally important, whereas the state (even though it contains the city!) isn't? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 08:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
There's much merit in this argument. If someone says that they are going to New York it's almost certain that they mean the city rather than the state, whether they are a US or non-US person, just as someone who says they are going to Washington will generally mean the city rather than the state unless they happen to be close to the state. With apologies to those in the rest of the state, as a British person, when I thought of New York prior to living within the state, I was invariably thinking of the city, not the state. The state was at that time a comparative nonentity as far as I was concerned, though of course that changed once I was within it and discovered more than the famous city.:) Jamesday 02:05, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I have heard complaints that New York, New York shouldn't be used because the postal system uses that for mail to Manhattan only.
But that doesn't hold up! If one looks here, http://www.littletongov.org/maps/zipcodes.asp, mail addressed to "Littleton, Colorado" may not necessairly actually be going to Littleton. As a matter of fact, Columbine High School is not in Littleton! The postal system's "cities" and the actual cities are different. WhisperToMe 03:21, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
True indeed. Which is why the fact that using city, state conforms to postal usage is not a very good reason that we should use it. john 05:01, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Not necessairly. "New York, New York" in postal refers to New York City, because at the time it was first established, it only had Manhattan.
Then in 1898, the new government was established, which additionally covers Brooklyn, Staten Island, and the neighborhoods of Queens.
In 1914, Brooklyn was separated from New York County, which is more evidence that the "New York, New York" refers to the city. WhisperToMe 05:14, 14 May 2004 (UTC) WhisperToMe 05:11, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh? When the postal name was created, New York City was only Manhattan. But that postal name continued to refer to only Manhattan, even after the city itself was enlarged to include the outer boroughs. john 05:22, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the postal name included the Bronx until some time in the 1960s. I remember when that happened. -- BRG 15:02, May 14, 2004 (UTC)
Huh, interesting. Well, clearly the situation is extremely complicated. So, basically. New York City=Manhattan=New York County=New York postal name up to the 1870s. From the 1870s to the 1890s New York City, New York County, and the New York postal name were expanded to include the Bronx. In 1898, New York City expanded to include Richmond County, King's County, and Queen's County. In 1914, Bronx County was split off from New York County, but remained part of the New York postal address until the 1960s... Is that accurate? john 17:29, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Here is what I sent earlier to
WhisperToMe. The only thing is I don't remember the Bronx still being New York, New York P.O. until the 1960s. It's not too complicated if you follow the timeline. And BTW, the Marble Hill anomoly is because of the digging of the Harlem River Boat Ship Canal:
I hope I'm not telling you what you already know, but:
There's actually even more behind the convoluted postal names. At the time of the 1898 consolidation what's now Kings County/Borough of Brooklyn was the City of Brooklyn. Queens, on the other hand, was not a city unto itself but rather, was home to many smaller villages towns and municipalities. That's why, to this day, Brooklynites from all neighborhoods recieve mail addressed to "Bklyn, NY" while Queens residents will always give addresses that reflect their neighborhoods' historical status: "Astoria, NY" and "Flushing, NY" for example.
Is Marble Hill part of Bronx County and the Borough of Manhattan, or part of the Borough of the Bronx and New York County? john 22:32, 14 May 2004 (UTC)