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I have totally re:did this article. There was simple too many statements that were not backed up. Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp continues to revert the "Critics" section to something that does not reference or explain the concerns raised. As stated before, Critics exist, they deserve mention, but the section should not try justify the concerns, but should make the reader aware!
Morcomm ( talk) 10:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
I have just replaced the vision statement or introduction which can all be referenced from the ncmi.net site that was removed by Morcomm, I have also amended the critics statements to remove bias and generalizations of NCMI compared to allegations made by Morcomm of two individual churches. Contrary to being accused I have no problem with a critics section, as I personally support, as does NCMI people having freedom to express their concerns. I would just state that when someone is making direct allegations (only supported by blog media and the web page created by Morcomm) I would ask and suggest they take those allegations to the churches directly and if relevant the appropriate authorities. To make sexual abuse allegations and name churches with the only reference being a blog, I believe is high unethical and could even be defamation! I would also state that although Morcomm says he has had contact with 20 - 40 people with concerns, I have personally had contact with 1000's of people, within and leading churches from around the world who believe in and support NCMI. I'm not in any sense stating that NCMI as a team is perfect, or that the churches who relate to this team are perfect, we're not! As NCMI is a translocal team our commitment is to work with churches as they invite us and can only do that in the areas of the church where that is welcomed. NCMI is not a denomination so we don't have control over what churches may choose to do, we can only give input as they ask.
Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp or Darren Prosser
Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp ( talk) 14:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I understand what were you are coming from believe it or not, but in order for the article to be fully informative, there has to be facts presented. I do not wish the Critic section to be accusing. I accuse NCMI in my personal capacity, and I will continue to do so, but this article needs to paint the full picture. The fact is, Critics exist, and the mention should be made. The objection that I had to your edits was that you were answering questions that had not been presented namely that churches do not think about their effects on the established church community within a city/town before planting a church there. I do not agree that NCMI takes over, at the detriment of other churches at that was NEVER brought up by me! I might be the author of the blog that is referenced, but I am willing to work with you here to create a article that is not biased.
Also, as a point of major concern, the introduction is totally un-referenced. We need to sort that out. I will take it that you are a expert on the subject of NCMI, and that what you say is true, but it is not backed up by any reference. I will search and see if I can find any, but a earlier attempt failed to bring anything up. If I still can't find anything, I will be removing segments.
Morcomm ( talk) 01:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Concerns about Shepherding in NCMI: these comments were deleted (or "amended" as one editor has put it) from this Talk section and I am reposting them to highlight a major concern that has been expressed (although those comments were also deleted) and which I am now reaffirming about shepherding/excessive control. All that I am writing is backed up by personal involvement as a person who attended and taught in an NCMI church. In fact, I attended an NCMI Church for over 4 years and had the chance to sit under the ministry of a number of NCMI Apostolic/Prophetic team members. There were some exceptions, but there often tended to be an 'elitist spirit' that manifested itself in belittling other expressions of the Body of Christ, and encouraging members to essentially cut all previous ties they may have had with different churches and/or ministries. Basically, the message was "we are doing Church Biblically, and everyone else who deviates from our model and understanding are simply wrong/unBiblical". Most of the members of the Church I attended actually were converted to Christ in other Churches/movements and now the leadership was teaching them to dissociate with the very people who God used to bring them into His Kingdom. In the name of being "Apostolic", what they were doing was actually the antithesis of true Apostolic ministry. The Apostle Paul refused to build on another man's foundation, and therefore wouldn't 'sheep steal'. Most in our Church represented 'transfer growth' (coming from other Churches), not true Apostolic Church growth (conversions).
Whereas they would not "recognize" others (other Churches, other Christian leadership), they expected others to "recognize" them. As time went on, the Church I attended became more and more isolated from other Churches in the city. Members were strongly encouraged not to attend other Christian meetings in the city - like prayer meetings and home Bible studies that weren't officially 'under' the oversight of the local NCMI Elders. People were told that these groups weren't "properly covered" implying that it could be/would be dangerous to attend such meetings. If it was limited to this one Church, I could write off my concern as an isolated case that wasn't representative of the larger group. However, I have seen the same tendencies in 3 other surrounding countries, most recently where a group from another NCMI Church was told they couldn't attend a Christian meeting in the home of some NCMI Church attenders because there would be guests there who the leadership "didn't know". Do they not trust their members to use their own discernment? Inviting some Christians to your house for fellowship and to share some testimonies about what God is doing doesn't need 'Eldership approval'. This begins to approach one of the serious problems that developed in the original Shepherding Movement in the 70's. The "sheep" weren't allowed to make their own decisions.
Probably the saddest thing is that their inability to receive from other streams/movements ultimately means they are missing out on much of what God is doing on the earth. If you think that "we are what God is doing", then you by definition aren't looking to other flows around the world to enhance what you have. Many in the Apostolic Movement are not at all like this, and are encouraged strongly to go out and receive from other Churches, other moves of God. The more involved I saw people get involved in the NMCI model (at least in the Church I attended), the less likely they were to attend conferences and/or receive from other Christians outside of their NCMI Network. At best, the Scriptures teach us that "we know IN PART". God designed the Church this way so that we would need others in the Body of Christ.
Prophet Rick Joyner in his book "The Apostolic Ministry" speaks about a false Apostolic Movement arising on the earth before the emergence of the true Apostolic is restored. What was interesting about what he wrote, is that the Lord showed them that this precursor Apostolic Movement would be more controlling than the Shepherding Movement of the 70's. Whereas I haven't seen the kinds of extreme things I heard about that happened in the Shepherding Movement of the 70's, I have definitely seen a controlling spirit in the NCMI Churches I am most familiar with, and I pray that wherever these tendencies are manifesting themselves in this movement, that they would heed the warning of this recognized Prophetic man to ensure they avoid being a part of the "false" and become part of the "true" Apostolic that will emerge in the coming days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.175.75.172 ( talk) 12:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I believe I fixed the underlinking issue. In the meantime I have flagged new issues. The article still largely copies a great deal of its content from the NCMI website; this is not encyclopedic, and clearly presents only their POV. Furthermore, it is steeped in insider terminology and jargon that requires elucidation (e.g. "translocal"). — Sigeng ( talk • contribs) 07:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I also requested removal of the "open letter" that was added into history of this article as a series of edit summaries by the user identified by IP 197.174.57.254. Contributing content in that manner is edit summary vandalism and must be removed per Wikipedia's policy, so I asked an administrator to do. Personally, I am concerned about the issues raised in that open letter, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for raising such issues. -- Sigeng ( talk) 22:10, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
To date I have not seen any external source that lists thousands of churches to corroborate that claim, unless there are thousands of tiny plants all located in South Africa. Based on the current website, there are no more than 100 NCMI team members (left). A ratio of 70:1 seems quite unlikely, since most churches are able to be visited by 3-4 team members per year. Similarly attendance at the larger conferences is too small. Please add better information if available. -- Sigeng ( talk) 04:47, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
{{Dubious – discuss}}
point – regarding the number of NCMI team members, the number of nations NCMI is working in and the number of leaders and churches that are linked or partnering with NCMI.
Hello All, I am new to wikipedia. I really think wikipedia should be factual. When we are reporting how many churches relate to ncmi rumors are no good. There have been many rumors over the years, 30,000 or 17,000 now 7,000? I really think we can only count those churches who linked to the ncmi website. We can check the "way back machine" and i'm guessing that there were closer to 500 churches that were listed. Imaginary or unknown churches just can't be counted because it's supposed to be factual. I come to wikipedia to find out facts and I was surprised to see 7000 churches mentioned. I am happy to get onto the way back machine and count how many churches said that they related to ncmi if that would help. Can we link to the way back machine?
Espressoyourself ( talk) 13:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Also for the current discussion on how many countries and churches there are, - we can simply link to the ncmi website and count the churches and count the countries listed. You can't have a factual article that says "ncmi has churches in 80 countries" with absolutely no proof.
Espressoyourself ( talk) 13:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The official NCMI website shows that there are 115 churches in 8 countries. (Europe has not been filled out yet.)
Espressoyourself ( talk) 14:38, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The following continues a discussion that MuzickMaker started on my talk page. See also this related thread. I have re-posted the most recent response here verbatim. Readers should note that MuzickMaker, as stated on his user page, is a member of the NCMI team.
MuzickMaker ( talk) 07:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)Sigeng, We have not established that I have a financial connection to NCMI because I have no financial connection with NCMI whatsoever(please read my disclosure statement on my page). I have no conflict of interest because I am committed to following the Wiki Policies and Guidelines completely above anything else. It was a mistake to ask you about your personal beliefs. I apologized to you for that. I did that within the first two days of my being an editor. Like I said to the editor I asked to assist me with understanding the guidelines, it will not happen again.
That said, if you are unwilling to disclose your personal interest in editing the NCMI page, for the sake of peace, I will not press it any longer.
I have no interest in advocating for NCMI. And other than my questioning you about your beliefs everything I have asked you has been in keeping with the Wiki policies and guidelines, which I am trying my hardest to encourage you to follow.
My interest in being involved in editing the NCMI page is single - that the content of this page conform to the Wiki content policies and represents the high standards that Wiki requires. The reason all the WIKI policies I have mentioned to you exist is to insure that you and me both are functioning according to them and to insure that the content of the pages we edit are accurate.
Let me say it clearly again, I am very willing to let everything I say and do on here be scrutinized by anyone. That is how committed I am to following the Wiki Policy over any other purpose.
But let me return to what should be, for both you and me, of highest importance: the quality of the NCMI page, and it's content conforming to the Wiki content policies and guidelines.
The editor I asked about WP:RS and pro/con content did not say the quote in question meets the WP:RS standards. He said that "As long as referenced opinions critical of the group are represented properly as opinions, and are representative of the range of opinions, pro and con, about the group, then those opinions belong in the article. But if the overwhelming range of opinions from independent sources is positive, then negative opinions are fringe, and should not be over-emphasized.
The point here is two things: Does the quote and the referenced source meet the WP:RS criteria. And does the quote represent the range of opinions, pro and con, from reliable independent sources.
If, as you say, there are no reliable independent published sources that have presented a pro side then the con quote you have inserted does not represent a range of pro and con opinions.
I would point out the guidelines in WP:controversialfacts "Try to arrive at a consensus with whomever participates in the discussion."
Are you willing to follow the WP:controversialfacts policy and guideline and work toward consensus?
MuzickMaker (
talk)
00:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)Sigeng, thank you for your clarification on your interest in the NCMI page. That helps me to understand your interest in the page. Just one point on that. As the WP:COI says regarding biased editing. "Conflict of interest is not simply bias. Beliefs and desires alone do not constitute a conflict of interest. On Wikipedia, a person's beliefs and desires may lead to biased editing, but biased editing can occur in the absence of a conflict of interest."
Let me underscore those two thoughts: Beliefs and desires alone do not constitute a conflict of interest.' and biased editing can occur in the absence of a conflict of interest. When I look at the contents of the page I see what I think is evidence of bias. I may be wrong. I think we both need to pass the different items of content of the page and our reasoning by other editors bringing them into the discussion so that we can do our level best to make sure that we are not functioning with bias and that this page is the best representation of the Wikipedia goals as it can be.
Since part of your stated objective in this dialogue is to "find a way to manage my COI", I will respectfully respond to your wrong assumptions regarding me.
You assume that I have a financial COI because of my relationship with NCMI. You say: "perhaps you are offered honorariums, accommodations, and travel expenses to speak at NCMI conferences. There is, therefore, a financial component to your COI." You are wrong on all counts on that.
Again, let me clarify that I have zero financial COI in my relationship with NCMI:
I have never spoken at an NCMI conference. I have never had my accommodations paid for by NCMI. I have never received an honorarium from NCMI. I have never had any travel expenses paid by NCMI. I do not receive any funds from NCMI for anything I do. And I do not even receive funds from any church that I work with who relates to the NCMI team. I am a full time Pastor of a local church. I receive no remuneration of any kind for any ministry I do outside my own church from any church (NCMI or otherwise)or from any group (NCMI or otherwise). I and the people of the church I lead pay out of our own pockets for all the ministry we do outside of our church. This enables us to serve any group of people of any size, 10 people to 1000, without ever being influenced by gain of any kind. This no expectation and removal of receiving of any personal benefits from groups we work with enables us to go into small groups in remote places, 1st, 2nd or 3rd world, to serve and give to them expecting nothing in return. The reason why I and the people of the church I lead pay all of our own expenses is so that we can serve and help very small struggling groups or church plants all over the world who could never be able to afford to bring someone in to help them. it is our conviction that any church or any group anywhere in the world should never be hindered from receiving help because they can't afford it. Almost all of the NCMI leaders I know from all over the world operate on this same principle. So let's put this financial COI allegation to rest. I have none.
WP:COI says, -Editors with COIs who wish to edit responsibly are strongly encouraged to follow Wikipedia policies and best practices scrupulously. They are also encouraged to disclose their interest on their user pages and on the talk page of the article in question, and to request the views of other editors. If you have a conflict of interest, any changes you would like to propose that might be seen as non-neutral should be suggested on the relevant talk page or noticeboard."
I "wish to edit responsibly." I agree with your point that my association with NCMI COULD potentially put me in a me in a COI. And I agree with WP:COI that "any changes you would like to propose that might be seen as non-neutral should be suggested on the relevant talk page or noticeboard." As such, I am willing to use the related article talk pages to propose edits and to allow uninvolved editors to review our discussion and to make final calls on proposed edits.
I have also followed the WP:COI policy by disclosing on my page my relationship with NCMI and by inviting the views of other editors. I am willing to have anything I say or do in Wikipedia scrutinized by Wiki editors and administration to insure that I am operating in an unbiased way and that I am following the Wiki policies and best practices scrupulously.
What precipitated my interest in being involved in editing the NCMI page was seeing a number of items on the NCMI page that are either inaccurate or improper wording, the specific quote(s) in question are just one example. I didn't know that they also violate the wiki content policies until I read them. I cared enough about the quality of this page to go through the process of becoming an editor. Assuming good faith, I would think that your desire is to improve the accuracy and quality of this page. I would also think that, in view of your desire to make this page the best that it can be, one of your first responses would be to seek to know why I believe that the cases in point are problematic and not in keeping with the purposes of encyclopedic goals of Wikipedia, rather than just seeking to invalidate my voice in these matters and send me off to edit some other page.
Maybe we didn't get off on the right foot, and I am to blame for some of that, but I do care that the information on this page is both accurate and meets the Wiki content policy.
One editor has expressed that the page needs a fair bit of work. How about, for the sake of increasing the quality of the page, we get down to discussing the information on the page and bring in some other uninvolved editors to consider the veracity of some of the items on the NCMI page and our reasoning processes regarding them. I would definitely like to have some editors examine my thoughts and suggestions regarding these items and to see if, in fact, I am acting impartially, fairly and without bias.
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MuzickMaker ( talk) 23:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
MuzickMaker ( talk) 16:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
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MuzickMaker ( talk) 23:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I intentionally left this second {{ help me}} open when I closed the first, just in case someone else cared to step in and address it in a different way. Since it has been open for over a day now without such input (which is exceptionally long for a help request) I'm going to go ahead and close it, with the same justification that I stated above... this is a content dispute, and not an issue that is going to be successfully addressed by a help request. Revent talk 10:15, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
This should be fairly obvious if you read this article, but it is comprised mainly of a) what NCMI says about itself, and b) criticism. There is no coverage the opinions of other religions commentators, either neutral or in support... it does not provide a balanced view of the subject. I removed some criticism, on the basis of it being from an 'anonymous source' and thus neither 'reliable' nor 'verifiable', but that didn't really affect the balance issue at all. This article needs considerably less discussion of what NCMI says, and considerable more discussion of what other RS say about them. Revent talk 13:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
@ Revent: What is the best way to bring continued content disagreements into mediation? What do you suggest? MuzickMaker ( talk) 18:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
@ MuzickMaker: @ Sigent: Admittedly, I have not through all the varied threads about issue with this article, but it seems that everyone is agreement that my tagging of the article, the 'general issues' that are wrong with it, is appropriate. (If not please say so) I think you need to make individual issues well defined "this is wrong and why", and specific proposed edits to this talk page, preferably in fairly short 'topical' sections, and have seperate discussions... this will make it easier to follow for anyone joining the conversation, for one thing. "General" complaints don't really accomplish anything, to be honest.. though you can still edit 'collaboratively' on a talk page, and if you get stuck on a particular point, then ask for a WP:Third opinion. It's really best if a person can come in and address a specific point, without 'having' to get involved in the entire drama of the article. (also, the person typically has the talk page watchlisted after that). If the viewpoints about a 'specific change or set of changes' are well defined (without getting sidetracked), then you are more likely to get helpful input that can resolve that point. Revent talk 01:24, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't intend to personally get into actually editing this article, for various reasons, but have been trying to see what research I can do into finding further references. Please try to avoid 'discussion of the issues' in this new section, but instead use it as a list of possible sources for 'expansion', and possibly discussion of those particular sources. Note that I haven't personally read these, as I don't have access to them, but indications are that they would provide useful information. Thanks. Revent talk 10:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
* Robertson, Ewen. "An Evaluative History of Covenant Ministries International and its offshoots from 1995 to the present day." JEPTA: Journal of the European Pentecostal Theological Association 27.1 (2007).
I was asked by User:MuzickMaker to read and offer feedback on this article based on my experience editing several articles on Pentecostal denominations that subsequently achieved Good Article status. These are my initial impressions:
1) Wordiness. In my opinion, we can make a much better written article with tighter prose in fewer words. For example, there is a subsection entitled "Church planting" that revolves around one quote that used a lot of biblical references. That is fine for speaking in a church context, but do we really need to use this quote in an encyclopedia? Can't we just say, "NCMI believes that the Great Commission is a vital part of the church's mission. Therefore, church planting is heavily emphasized.[29][30]"
2) Lack of definitions/explanations. While a lot is said, many crucial terms are left undefined. For example, the very first paragraph introduces us to the term "apostolic-prophetic team," but what this term means is never defined. At the end of the article, Ephesians 4 is referenced, but we still are never told what the differences between an apostle, prophet, evangelist, and teacher are supposed to be. We are never told how members of the apostolic-prophetic team are chosen. Some of this can be fixed by reorganizing the article. The current outline is not very logical or intuitive. In some cases, information covered at the beginning of the article is rehashed at the end.
Another example is found in the statement of faith subsection. We are told, "NCMI affirms "Baptist, Pentecostal, and Apostolic" traditional beliefs." This is just confusing. Does this mean that there are Baptist churches and Pentecostal churches and "Apostolic" churches all cooperating in the same organization? Or does this mean that NCMI incorporates Baptist doctrine (if so, which ones does it incorporate and which ones does it not?) and Pentecostal doctrine (same question?) and "Apostolic" doctrine (same question?)? Our aim should be to provide clarity not confusion. Which brings me to another issue. If we have to add a note which says we have no idea what "Apostolic" means in NCMI's context, we probably shouldn't even mention it. If the editors here can't explain the meaning of this phrase, we should probably just not use it at all. We can amend the sentence to simply say the following: "In their statement of faith,[10] NCMI affirms biblical inspiration; the Trinity; the humanity, divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ; and substitutionary atonement."
Sigeng (
talk) 07:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[edited]
Sigeng (
talk)
09:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
3) Pointless material. A somewhat related issue I've come across is the mention of a fact without any further information. For example, the subsection "International expansion (1990–2004)" has the following sentence: "Manley wrote that, in 2001, of the eight original signatories to New Covenant Ministries, only three remained in the movement, with only Dudley Daniel and Rigby Wallace at the forefront.[40]" This is interesting, but then the topic completely changes to an identification of the unofficial headquarters of the movement. What is supposed to be the point in including Manley's observation in this article? We should not be leaving hints or suggestions to the reader. Does Manley know why only 3 of the original 8 remain? Did the other 5 leave because they were disgruntled with the direction of the movement? Were they kicked out? Are they dead? Did they repudiate the movement as a cult? We don't know, but now the reader is left wondering if something sinister was behind this fact.
4) Blogs. I've noticed that on several occasions blog posts of NCMI affiliated persons are used as sources. According to Wikipedia guidelines ( WP:RS), self-published sources are generally to be avoided. I am particularly concerned about the following quote used in the "Criticism of leadership model" subsection, where Chris Wienand writes on his blog, "the recent years saw us preoccupied with an ecclesiology that was 'over realized'.... We preached 'model', 'pattern' passionately. But our God is gracious, kind and infinitely generous. He walked us back... to the gospel we had so sadly sent to the bookends of our convictions. After 25 years of pastoral ministry I had to admit to a wonderful community that I had erred." I do not believe this quote belongs in this article at all. It is not clear from my reading of Wienand's blog that he is criticizing the leadership model of NCMI as much as he is making a personal confession of his own need to revisit his priorities. I don't know what Wienand has said elsewhere in regards to his feelings about NCMI's leadership model, but the cited blog post is not explicit enough to establish him as a critic of NCMI.
5) Criticism. It is generally considered bad practice to have a "Criticism" section in an article. The best approach is to have critical observations (published in reliable sources) integrated throughout the article.
6) Infobox. The infobox used in this article is for a non-profit organization. Wikipedia has an infobox for religious groups, which to my mind would be much more appropriate.
I can go ahead and make some editorial improvements, but I wanted to let other editors know my thoughts. Ltwin ( talk) 05:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
MuzickMaker ( talk) 06:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)hi Signeg, hope you had a good winter. I was just reading the NCMI page and noticed the figures given in paragraph 1: "active in about 100 countries.[1] NCMI defines itself as a team of about 100 itinerant church leaders who speak at conferences and work with affiliated local churches." I checked the source you referenced " http://www.ncmi.net/about/our-history" and can't find anywhere in that source where it says "a team of about 100 itinerant church leaders". Did I miss it somewhere in the source? Or was this amount found in some other source? If there is a reliable source for that figure it would be best to post it. If there is no reliable source it would be best to remove it. It is true that there is no way to verify the actual number of NCMI team members because these names are not published, therefore no reliable source. However I have the current actual list and there are about 250 couples in just the African team alone. Then there is a general international team that has over about 200 couples on it. This does not include the team members in individual nations like Malawi, for instance, which has close to 200 team members or many other countries that have large numbers of relating churches. As an aside, all team members are itinerant. The team is a trans-local team and one of the requirements of being on the team is being able to travel to other churches. My thoughts are if an accurate number cannot be found in a current reliable source it is better to leave it out. MuzickMaker ( talk) 06:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
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I have totally re:did this article. There was simple too many statements that were not backed up. Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp continues to revert the "Critics" section to something that does not reference or explain the concerns raised. As stated before, Critics exist, they deserve mention, but the section should not try justify the concerns, but should make the reader aware!
Morcomm ( talk) 10:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
I have just replaced the vision statement or introduction which can all be referenced from the ncmi.net site that was removed by Morcomm, I have also amended the critics statements to remove bias and generalizations of NCMI compared to allegations made by Morcomm of two individual churches. Contrary to being accused I have no problem with a critics section, as I personally support, as does NCMI people having freedom to express their concerns. I would just state that when someone is making direct allegations (only supported by blog media and the web page created by Morcomm) I would ask and suggest they take those allegations to the churches directly and if relevant the appropriate authorities. To make sexual abuse allegations and name churches with the only reference being a blog, I believe is high unethical and could even be defamation! I would also state that although Morcomm says he has had contact with 20 - 40 people with concerns, I have personally had contact with 1000's of people, within and leading churches from around the world who believe in and support NCMI. I'm not in any sense stating that NCMI as a team is perfect, or that the churches who relate to this team are perfect, we're not! As NCMI is a translocal team our commitment is to work with churches as they invite us and can only do that in the areas of the church where that is welcomed. NCMI is not a denomination so we don't have control over what churches may choose to do, we can only give input as they ask.
Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp or Darren Prosser
Ghfjdkslatyrueiwoqp ( talk) 14:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I understand what were you are coming from believe it or not, but in order for the article to be fully informative, there has to be facts presented. I do not wish the Critic section to be accusing. I accuse NCMI in my personal capacity, and I will continue to do so, but this article needs to paint the full picture. The fact is, Critics exist, and the mention should be made. The objection that I had to your edits was that you were answering questions that had not been presented namely that churches do not think about their effects on the established church community within a city/town before planting a church there. I do not agree that NCMI takes over, at the detriment of other churches at that was NEVER brought up by me! I might be the author of the blog that is referenced, but I am willing to work with you here to create a article that is not biased.
Also, as a point of major concern, the introduction is totally un-referenced. We need to sort that out. I will take it that you are a expert on the subject of NCMI, and that what you say is true, but it is not backed up by any reference. I will search and see if I can find any, but a earlier attempt failed to bring anything up. If I still can't find anything, I will be removing segments.
Morcomm ( talk) 01:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Concerns about Shepherding in NCMI: these comments were deleted (or "amended" as one editor has put it) from this Talk section and I am reposting them to highlight a major concern that has been expressed (although those comments were also deleted) and which I am now reaffirming about shepherding/excessive control. All that I am writing is backed up by personal involvement as a person who attended and taught in an NCMI church. In fact, I attended an NCMI Church for over 4 years and had the chance to sit under the ministry of a number of NCMI Apostolic/Prophetic team members. There were some exceptions, but there often tended to be an 'elitist spirit' that manifested itself in belittling other expressions of the Body of Christ, and encouraging members to essentially cut all previous ties they may have had with different churches and/or ministries. Basically, the message was "we are doing Church Biblically, and everyone else who deviates from our model and understanding are simply wrong/unBiblical". Most of the members of the Church I attended actually were converted to Christ in other Churches/movements and now the leadership was teaching them to dissociate with the very people who God used to bring them into His Kingdom. In the name of being "Apostolic", what they were doing was actually the antithesis of true Apostolic ministry. The Apostle Paul refused to build on another man's foundation, and therefore wouldn't 'sheep steal'. Most in our Church represented 'transfer growth' (coming from other Churches), not true Apostolic Church growth (conversions).
Whereas they would not "recognize" others (other Churches, other Christian leadership), they expected others to "recognize" them. As time went on, the Church I attended became more and more isolated from other Churches in the city. Members were strongly encouraged not to attend other Christian meetings in the city - like prayer meetings and home Bible studies that weren't officially 'under' the oversight of the local NCMI Elders. People were told that these groups weren't "properly covered" implying that it could be/would be dangerous to attend such meetings. If it was limited to this one Church, I could write off my concern as an isolated case that wasn't representative of the larger group. However, I have seen the same tendencies in 3 other surrounding countries, most recently where a group from another NCMI Church was told they couldn't attend a Christian meeting in the home of some NCMI Church attenders because there would be guests there who the leadership "didn't know". Do they not trust their members to use their own discernment? Inviting some Christians to your house for fellowship and to share some testimonies about what God is doing doesn't need 'Eldership approval'. This begins to approach one of the serious problems that developed in the original Shepherding Movement in the 70's. The "sheep" weren't allowed to make their own decisions.
Probably the saddest thing is that their inability to receive from other streams/movements ultimately means they are missing out on much of what God is doing on the earth. If you think that "we are what God is doing", then you by definition aren't looking to other flows around the world to enhance what you have. Many in the Apostolic Movement are not at all like this, and are encouraged strongly to go out and receive from other Churches, other moves of God. The more involved I saw people get involved in the NMCI model (at least in the Church I attended), the less likely they were to attend conferences and/or receive from other Christians outside of their NCMI Network. At best, the Scriptures teach us that "we know IN PART". God designed the Church this way so that we would need others in the Body of Christ.
Prophet Rick Joyner in his book "The Apostolic Ministry" speaks about a false Apostolic Movement arising on the earth before the emergence of the true Apostolic is restored. What was interesting about what he wrote, is that the Lord showed them that this precursor Apostolic Movement would be more controlling than the Shepherding Movement of the 70's. Whereas I haven't seen the kinds of extreme things I heard about that happened in the Shepherding Movement of the 70's, I have definitely seen a controlling spirit in the NCMI Churches I am most familiar with, and I pray that wherever these tendencies are manifesting themselves in this movement, that they would heed the warning of this recognized Prophetic man to ensure they avoid being a part of the "false" and become part of the "true" Apostolic that will emerge in the coming days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.175.75.172 ( talk) 12:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I believe I fixed the underlinking issue. In the meantime I have flagged new issues. The article still largely copies a great deal of its content from the NCMI website; this is not encyclopedic, and clearly presents only their POV. Furthermore, it is steeped in insider terminology and jargon that requires elucidation (e.g. "translocal"). — Sigeng ( talk • contribs) 07:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I also requested removal of the "open letter" that was added into history of this article as a series of edit summaries by the user identified by IP 197.174.57.254. Contributing content in that manner is edit summary vandalism and must be removed per Wikipedia's policy, so I asked an administrator to do. Personally, I am concerned about the issues raised in that open letter, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for raising such issues. -- Sigeng ( talk) 22:10, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
To date I have not seen any external source that lists thousands of churches to corroborate that claim, unless there are thousands of tiny plants all located in South Africa. Based on the current website, there are no more than 100 NCMI team members (left). A ratio of 70:1 seems quite unlikely, since most churches are able to be visited by 3-4 team members per year. Similarly attendance at the larger conferences is too small. Please add better information if available. -- Sigeng ( talk) 04:47, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
{{Dubious – discuss}}
point – regarding the number of NCMI team members, the number of nations NCMI is working in and the number of leaders and churches that are linked or partnering with NCMI.
Hello All, I am new to wikipedia. I really think wikipedia should be factual. When we are reporting how many churches relate to ncmi rumors are no good. There have been many rumors over the years, 30,000 or 17,000 now 7,000? I really think we can only count those churches who linked to the ncmi website. We can check the "way back machine" and i'm guessing that there were closer to 500 churches that were listed. Imaginary or unknown churches just can't be counted because it's supposed to be factual. I come to wikipedia to find out facts and I was surprised to see 7000 churches mentioned. I am happy to get onto the way back machine and count how many churches said that they related to ncmi if that would help. Can we link to the way back machine?
Espressoyourself ( talk) 13:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Also for the current discussion on how many countries and churches there are, - we can simply link to the ncmi website and count the churches and count the countries listed. You can't have a factual article that says "ncmi has churches in 80 countries" with absolutely no proof.
Espressoyourself ( talk) 13:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The official NCMI website shows that there are 115 churches in 8 countries. (Europe has not been filled out yet.)
Espressoyourself ( talk) 14:38, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The following continues a discussion that MuzickMaker started on my talk page. See also this related thread. I have re-posted the most recent response here verbatim. Readers should note that MuzickMaker, as stated on his user page, is a member of the NCMI team.
MuzickMaker ( talk) 07:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)Sigeng, We have not established that I have a financial connection to NCMI because I have no financial connection with NCMI whatsoever(please read my disclosure statement on my page). I have no conflict of interest because I am committed to following the Wiki Policies and Guidelines completely above anything else. It was a mistake to ask you about your personal beliefs. I apologized to you for that. I did that within the first two days of my being an editor. Like I said to the editor I asked to assist me with understanding the guidelines, it will not happen again.
That said, if you are unwilling to disclose your personal interest in editing the NCMI page, for the sake of peace, I will not press it any longer.
I have no interest in advocating for NCMI. And other than my questioning you about your beliefs everything I have asked you has been in keeping with the Wiki policies and guidelines, which I am trying my hardest to encourage you to follow.
My interest in being involved in editing the NCMI page is single - that the content of this page conform to the Wiki content policies and represents the high standards that Wiki requires. The reason all the WIKI policies I have mentioned to you exist is to insure that you and me both are functioning according to them and to insure that the content of the pages we edit are accurate.
Let me say it clearly again, I am very willing to let everything I say and do on here be scrutinized by anyone. That is how committed I am to following the Wiki Policy over any other purpose.
But let me return to what should be, for both you and me, of highest importance: the quality of the NCMI page, and it's content conforming to the Wiki content policies and guidelines.
The editor I asked about WP:RS and pro/con content did not say the quote in question meets the WP:RS standards. He said that "As long as referenced opinions critical of the group are represented properly as opinions, and are representative of the range of opinions, pro and con, about the group, then those opinions belong in the article. But if the overwhelming range of opinions from independent sources is positive, then negative opinions are fringe, and should not be over-emphasized.
The point here is two things: Does the quote and the referenced source meet the WP:RS criteria. And does the quote represent the range of opinions, pro and con, from reliable independent sources.
If, as you say, there are no reliable independent published sources that have presented a pro side then the con quote you have inserted does not represent a range of pro and con opinions.
I would point out the guidelines in WP:controversialfacts "Try to arrive at a consensus with whomever participates in the discussion."
Are you willing to follow the WP:controversialfacts policy and guideline and work toward consensus?
MuzickMaker (
talk)
00:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)Sigeng, thank you for your clarification on your interest in the NCMI page. That helps me to understand your interest in the page. Just one point on that. As the WP:COI says regarding biased editing. "Conflict of interest is not simply bias. Beliefs and desires alone do not constitute a conflict of interest. On Wikipedia, a person's beliefs and desires may lead to biased editing, but biased editing can occur in the absence of a conflict of interest."
Let me underscore those two thoughts: Beliefs and desires alone do not constitute a conflict of interest.' and biased editing can occur in the absence of a conflict of interest. When I look at the contents of the page I see what I think is evidence of bias. I may be wrong. I think we both need to pass the different items of content of the page and our reasoning by other editors bringing them into the discussion so that we can do our level best to make sure that we are not functioning with bias and that this page is the best representation of the Wikipedia goals as it can be.
Since part of your stated objective in this dialogue is to "find a way to manage my COI", I will respectfully respond to your wrong assumptions regarding me.
You assume that I have a financial COI because of my relationship with NCMI. You say: "perhaps you are offered honorariums, accommodations, and travel expenses to speak at NCMI conferences. There is, therefore, a financial component to your COI." You are wrong on all counts on that.
Again, let me clarify that I have zero financial COI in my relationship with NCMI:
I have never spoken at an NCMI conference. I have never had my accommodations paid for by NCMI. I have never received an honorarium from NCMI. I have never had any travel expenses paid by NCMI. I do not receive any funds from NCMI for anything I do. And I do not even receive funds from any church that I work with who relates to the NCMI team. I am a full time Pastor of a local church. I receive no remuneration of any kind for any ministry I do outside my own church from any church (NCMI or otherwise)or from any group (NCMI or otherwise). I and the people of the church I lead pay out of our own pockets for all the ministry we do outside of our church. This enables us to serve any group of people of any size, 10 people to 1000, without ever being influenced by gain of any kind. This no expectation and removal of receiving of any personal benefits from groups we work with enables us to go into small groups in remote places, 1st, 2nd or 3rd world, to serve and give to them expecting nothing in return. The reason why I and the people of the church I lead pay all of our own expenses is so that we can serve and help very small struggling groups or church plants all over the world who could never be able to afford to bring someone in to help them. it is our conviction that any church or any group anywhere in the world should never be hindered from receiving help because they can't afford it. Almost all of the NCMI leaders I know from all over the world operate on this same principle. So let's put this financial COI allegation to rest. I have none.
WP:COI says, -Editors with COIs who wish to edit responsibly are strongly encouraged to follow Wikipedia policies and best practices scrupulously. They are also encouraged to disclose their interest on their user pages and on the talk page of the article in question, and to request the views of other editors. If you have a conflict of interest, any changes you would like to propose that might be seen as non-neutral should be suggested on the relevant talk page or noticeboard."
I "wish to edit responsibly." I agree with your point that my association with NCMI COULD potentially put me in a me in a COI. And I agree with WP:COI that "any changes you would like to propose that might be seen as non-neutral should be suggested on the relevant talk page or noticeboard." As such, I am willing to use the related article talk pages to propose edits and to allow uninvolved editors to review our discussion and to make final calls on proposed edits.
I have also followed the WP:COI policy by disclosing on my page my relationship with NCMI and by inviting the views of other editors. I am willing to have anything I say or do in Wikipedia scrutinized by Wiki editors and administration to insure that I am operating in an unbiased way and that I am following the Wiki policies and best practices scrupulously.
What precipitated my interest in being involved in editing the NCMI page was seeing a number of items on the NCMI page that are either inaccurate or improper wording, the specific quote(s) in question are just one example. I didn't know that they also violate the wiki content policies until I read them. I cared enough about the quality of this page to go through the process of becoming an editor. Assuming good faith, I would think that your desire is to improve the accuracy and quality of this page. I would also think that, in view of your desire to make this page the best that it can be, one of your first responses would be to seek to know why I believe that the cases in point are problematic and not in keeping with the purposes of encyclopedic goals of Wikipedia, rather than just seeking to invalidate my voice in these matters and send me off to edit some other page.
Maybe we didn't get off on the right foot, and I am to blame for some of that, but I do care that the information on this page is both accurate and meets the Wiki content policy.
One editor has expressed that the page needs a fair bit of work. How about, for the sake of increasing the quality of the page, we get down to discussing the information on the page and bring in some other uninvolved editors to consider the veracity of some of the items on the NCMI page and our reasoning processes regarding them. I would definitely like to have some editors examine my thoughts and suggestions regarding these items and to see if, in fact, I am acting impartially, fairly and without bias.
![]() | Please use the {{
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MuzickMaker ( talk) 23:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
MuzickMaker ( talk) 16:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
![]() | Please use the {{
help me}} template appropriately. The {{ help me}} template is for help in using Wikipedia, not for unrelated issues. If you would like to ask such a question, replace the code {{
help me-inappropriate}} on this page with {{
help me}} to reactivate the help request. Alternatively, you can also ask your question at the
Teahouse, the
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MuzickMaker ( talk) 23:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I intentionally left this second {{ help me}} open when I closed the first, just in case someone else cared to step in and address it in a different way. Since it has been open for over a day now without such input (which is exceptionally long for a help request) I'm going to go ahead and close it, with the same justification that I stated above... this is a content dispute, and not an issue that is going to be successfully addressed by a help request. Revent talk 10:15, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
This should be fairly obvious if you read this article, but it is comprised mainly of a) what NCMI says about itself, and b) criticism. There is no coverage the opinions of other religions commentators, either neutral or in support... it does not provide a balanced view of the subject. I removed some criticism, on the basis of it being from an 'anonymous source' and thus neither 'reliable' nor 'verifiable', but that didn't really affect the balance issue at all. This article needs considerably less discussion of what NCMI says, and considerable more discussion of what other RS say about them. Revent talk 13:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
@ Revent: What is the best way to bring continued content disagreements into mediation? What do you suggest? MuzickMaker ( talk) 18:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
@ MuzickMaker: @ Sigent: Admittedly, I have not through all the varied threads about issue with this article, but it seems that everyone is agreement that my tagging of the article, the 'general issues' that are wrong with it, is appropriate. (If not please say so) I think you need to make individual issues well defined "this is wrong and why", and specific proposed edits to this talk page, preferably in fairly short 'topical' sections, and have seperate discussions... this will make it easier to follow for anyone joining the conversation, for one thing. "General" complaints don't really accomplish anything, to be honest.. though you can still edit 'collaboratively' on a talk page, and if you get stuck on a particular point, then ask for a WP:Third opinion. It's really best if a person can come in and address a specific point, without 'having' to get involved in the entire drama of the article. (also, the person typically has the talk page watchlisted after that). If the viewpoints about a 'specific change or set of changes' are well defined (without getting sidetracked), then you are more likely to get helpful input that can resolve that point. Revent talk 01:24, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't intend to personally get into actually editing this article, for various reasons, but have been trying to see what research I can do into finding further references. Please try to avoid 'discussion of the issues' in this new section, but instead use it as a list of possible sources for 'expansion', and possibly discussion of those particular sources. Note that I haven't personally read these, as I don't have access to them, but indications are that they would provide useful information. Thanks. Revent talk 10:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
* Robertson, Ewen. "An Evaluative History of Covenant Ministries International and its offshoots from 1995 to the present day." JEPTA: Journal of the European Pentecostal Theological Association 27.1 (2007).
I was asked by User:MuzickMaker to read and offer feedback on this article based on my experience editing several articles on Pentecostal denominations that subsequently achieved Good Article status. These are my initial impressions:
1) Wordiness. In my opinion, we can make a much better written article with tighter prose in fewer words. For example, there is a subsection entitled "Church planting" that revolves around one quote that used a lot of biblical references. That is fine for speaking in a church context, but do we really need to use this quote in an encyclopedia? Can't we just say, "NCMI believes that the Great Commission is a vital part of the church's mission. Therefore, church planting is heavily emphasized.[29][30]"
2) Lack of definitions/explanations. While a lot is said, many crucial terms are left undefined. For example, the very first paragraph introduces us to the term "apostolic-prophetic team," but what this term means is never defined. At the end of the article, Ephesians 4 is referenced, but we still are never told what the differences between an apostle, prophet, evangelist, and teacher are supposed to be. We are never told how members of the apostolic-prophetic team are chosen. Some of this can be fixed by reorganizing the article. The current outline is not very logical or intuitive. In some cases, information covered at the beginning of the article is rehashed at the end.
Another example is found in the statement of faith subsection. We are told, "NCMI affirms "Baptist, Pentecostal, and Apostolic" traditional beliefs." This is just confusing. Does this mean that there are Baptist churches and Pentecostal churches and "Apostolic" churches all cooperating in the same organization? Or does this mean that NCMI incorporates Baptist doctrine (if so, which ones does it incorporate and which ones does it not?) and Pentecostal doctrine (same question?) and "Apostolic" doctrine (same question?)? Our aim should be to provide clarity not confusion. Which brings me to another issue. If we have to add a note which says we have no idea what "Apostolic" means in NCMI's context, we probably shouldn't even mention it. If the editors here can't explain the meaning of this phrase, we should probably just not use it at all. We can amend the sentence to simply say the following: "In their statement of faith,[10] NCMI affirms biblical inspiration; the Trinity; the humanity, divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ; and substitutionary atonement."
Sigeng (
talk) 07:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[edited]
Sigeng (
talk)
09:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
3) Pointless material. A somewhat related issue I've come across is the mention of a fact without any further information. For example, the subsection "International expansion (1990–2004)" has the following sentence: "Manley wrote that, in 2001, of the eight original signatories to New Covenant Ministries, only three remained in the movement, with only Dudley Daniel and Rigby Wallace at the forefront.[40]" This is interesting, but then the topic completely changes to an identification of the unofficial headquarters of the movement. What is supposed to be the point in including Manley's observation in this article? We should not be leaving hints or suggestions to the reader. Does Manley know why only 3 of the original 8 remain? Did the other 5 leave because they were disgruntled with the direction of the movement? Were they kicked out? Are they dead? Did they repudiate the movement as a cult? We don't know, but now the reader is left wondering if something sinister was behind this fact.
4) Blogs. I've noticed that on several occasions blog posts of NCMI affiliated persons are used as sources. According to Wikipedia guidelines ( WP:RS), self-published sources are generally to be avoided. I am particularly concerned about the following quote used in the "Criticism of leadership model" subsection, where Chris Wienand writes on his blog, "the recent years saw us preoccupied with an ecclesiology that was 'over realized'.... We preached 'model', 'pattern' passionately. But our God is gracious, kind and infinitely generous. He walked us back... to the gospel we had so sadly sent to the bookends of our convictions. After 25 years of pastoral ministry I had to admit to a wonderful community that I had erred." I do not believe this quote belongs in this article at all. It is not clear from my reading of Wienand's blog that he is criticizing the leadership model of NCMI as much as he is making a personal confession of his own need to revisit his priorities. I don't know what Wienand has said elsewhere in regards to his feelings about NCMI's leadership model, but the cited blog post is not explicit enough to establish him as a critic of NCMI.
5) Criticism. It is generally considered bad practice to have a "Criticism" section in an article. The best approach is to have critical observations (published in reliable sources) integrated throughout the article.
6) Infobox. The infobox used in this article is for a non-profit organization. Wikipedia has an infobox for religious groups, which to my mind would be much more appropriate.
I can go ahead and make some editorial improvements, but I wanted to let other editors know my thoughts. Ltwin ( talk) 05:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
MuzickMaker ( talk) 06:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)hi Signeg, hope you had a good winter. I was just reading the NCMI page and noticed the figures given in paragraph 1: "active in about 100 countries.[1] NCMI defines itself as a team of about 100 itinerant church leaders who speak at conferences and work with affiliated local churches." I checked the source you referenced " http://www.ncmi.net/about/our-history" and can't find anywhere in that source where it says "a team of about 100 itinerant church leaders". Did I miss it somewhere in the source? Or was this amount found in some other source? If there is a reliable source for that figure it would be best to post it. If there is no reliable source it would be best to remove it. It is true that there is no way to verify the actual number of NCMI team members because these names are not published, therefore no reliable source. However I have the current actual list and there are about 250 couples in just the African team alone. Then there is a general international team that has over about 200 couples on it. This does not include the team members in individual nations like Malawi, for instance, which has close to 200 team members or many other countries that have large numbers of relating churches. As an aside, all team members are itinerant. The team is a trans-local team and one of the requirements of being on the team is being able to travel to other churches. My thoughts are if an accurate number cannot be found in a current reliable source it is better to leave it out. MuzickMaker ( talk) 06:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)