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The term neurobiology is used indistinguishably from Neuroscience (Eg: Principles of Neural Science by Kandel et. al. use the term 'Neurobiology of Behavior'). Using it to describe just the study of neurons at a cellular level would be a restrictive usage. 'Cellular neuroscience' is a term that better reflects this field (Eg. Journal of Neuroscience classifies the single cell electrophysiology (like patch clamp) articles under the heading Cellular/Molecular ; This is also the heading under which Fundamental Neuroscience editors Squire et. al list their sections on action potentials and like [1]). So I propose that neurobiology become a redirect to Neuroscience and its contents moved to a new article to be named Cellular neuroscience. Please give your opinion. Shushruth 07:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. No doubt, there is an overlap in usage in some textbooks, but there is a fundamental distinction between neuroscience and neurobiology. A computer scientist for example who does computer simulations of the brain may be called a neuroscientist, but he or she is by no means a neurobiologist. I believe the wikipedia article clearly explains this. Moreover, the definition provided in the article is very much a paraphrase of the definition provided by Gordon Sheperd's textbook neurobiology. The distinction between neurobiology and neuroscience rests on the suffix -biology and -science. Take away the prefix neuro-, and you can still talk about the "biology of behavior" in a "principles of science" textbook. But that would not make biology and science anymore synonymous than neuroscience and neurobiology. As for terms such as "neurobiology of behavior, neurobiology of drug abuse," these phrases simply mean understanding studying the neurocellular bases of behavior from a biological perspective, i.e., no computer modeling, etc. And they all fall into neurobiology. The term "cellular neuroscience" is more restrictive than neurobiology. It is also convenient catergory in the journal of neuroscience, a journal that also publishes works by neuroscientists who are not necessarily neurobiologists.
mezzaninelounge 01:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Let me know what I can do to help. mezzaninelounge 08:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Although I generally support mezzanine's comment, I do not agree with his second sentence. Computational modeling is actually the area where the distinction between neuroscience and neurobiology became the more apparent. Computational Neuroscience generally describes a field overlapping cognitive science and system neuroscience. The models developed are either entirely phenomenologic (mathematical description not related to the biological substrate), or based on formal neural networks. On the contrary, Computational Neurobiology is used most often to cover the modeling of cellular behavior (axon growth, synaptic processing etc.) and the multicompartment models based on the cable approximation and description of ion channel (e.g. with the software GENESIS or NEURON). It is true that when it comes to integrate and fire neurons, the frontier is somehow a bit blurry.
You are right. No disagreement =)
mezzaninelounge (
talk) 00:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed a typo in the fifth line in "Neuronal Function". "....action potentials have the advantage of travelling over long distances of neuronal processes...." I'm juust a wikibeginer, but I just thought I let you know:-)-- Blackmage337 17:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)blackmage337
Thanks. You can go ahead and make changes to any typos you see. :) mezzaninelounge 19:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
As already remarked above, Neurobiology is just a synonym of Neuroscience and should become a redirect to that article. The contents of the current "neurobiology" article could be merged to Cellular neuroscience. In fact, it seems to me that it could just replace that (stub) article, which does not contain any real info not yet already present here. Any objections? -- Crusio ( talk) 14:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I strongly object to any proposal of merger. I would much rather improve the current content in the article. Please bear in mind that the definition of neurobiology in this article was taken from "Neurobiology" by Gordon Sheperd. A merger is not trivial and should be given more thought than a "as far as I'm concerned" rationale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielkueh ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 21:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Point taken. Let's back up a little bit. I apologize if the tone of my objection may have sounded unflattery. I am well aware that you are a neurogeneticist and I myself am of course a neurobiologist. I agree that this article is not well put together and does requires a major rewrite that better reflects its title. That said, I argue that there is a real distinction between neuroscience and neurobiology. Neuroscience is a much broader term. It is not just about the subject matter, it is also about the approach. Neurobiology, being first and foremost a biological science, is much more restrictive than neuroscience as it studies the nervous system and its components within the context of evolution, cell biology, physiology, and behavior which tend to be the major themes in biology. It is also first and foremost, an academic science and not a clinical or a translational science as it is concerned with basic fundamental concepts that describe the structure and function of the nervous system, and how these structures and functions are evolutionarily conserved in all animals, whether vertebrates or invertebrates. In fact, much of our understanding of the biophysics of neurobiology came from the use of invertebrates. Granted, these things are also included in neuroscience, but like everything else, it is a matter of scope and emphasis. I understand that laypersons and some neuroscientists/neurobiologists may use these term interchangeably, but to merge these two articles would be a disservice. Rather than doing a merger, I would propose instead a "major reorganization and rewrite" of this article in keeping with all other standard neurobiology texts. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 22:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I saw the Harvard webpage. Yes, they do use it interchangeably. But consider the context. If A is a subdivision of A` and if I use A` alongside A and vice versa does not mean A` = A. In fact, it is common for life scientists to use science and biology interchangeably (e.g., scientific research, biological research, or I'm a scientist, I'm a biologist) but surely you would agree that science is more than just biology. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 22:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
In an ideal world, I would agree with the statement "you cannot be a neuroscientist and not at the same time be a biologist." I would love that to be the true. But it isn't. You can study neuroscience from a cognitive, behavioral, and clinical perspective, but you cannot do that with neurobiology. For example, a neuropsychologist who provides neurological assessments and does research on the subject may be a neuroscientist, but he or she is by no means a neurobiologist. Another example, an applied mathematician may construct and derive equations to model say a biophysical activity, etc, but if he or she doesn't do any experiments that involve "living systems" whether it is a bacteria, a zygote, an eye, or even a full blown in vivo animal, he or she is not a neurobiologist. The biology is simply not there. Finally, one more example, an M.D. who does surgery may use the techniques and knowledge that neuroscientist develops, but unless he or she contributes to the building of knowledge, that M.D. is not a scientist no matter how many lab coats he or she may wear. He or she is a highly skilled technician and I do not mean this in any derogatory sense. Thus, I argue that there is a difference, that is both real and fundamental. Being a biologist, let alone a neurobiologist is more than just using a graphing program, an imaging device, etc, it is the whole package. It is about doing basic science to answer questions and problems that are fundamental to our understanding of the biology of the nervous system. These answers may or may not have translational or clinical value. Call me old school, but you don't become a biologist by majoring in biology or calling yourself a biologist. You become a biologist by DOING biology. I am not being sentimental when I say this, "I have met many neuroscientists, but I cannot say I have met many neurobiologist." mezzaninelounge ( talk) 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
One more clarification. Neuroscience may or may not be neurobiology, but it is not "neurobiology + something else." Just as a mammal may or may not be a cow, but it is not "a cow + something else." mezzaninelounge ( talk) 18:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
"I cannot envision something belonging to the realm of neuroscience, but not being biology." Again, in an ideal world, where all neuroscience and neuroscience related training program are run ONLY by biology-minded faculties and researchers and produce only "biology-minded individuals," then yes, I would agree. But it is not. I find it misleading and even unprofessional if say an economist who first uses the tools of EEG to study consumer behavior and then calls himself a neurobiologist. At best (and even then, I wonder), he is a neuroscientist or more specifically neuroeconomist, but not a neurobiologist. For that professional, the end is not the biology of decision making as much as using biological tools to predict and study decision making itself. Likewise, I know many old school neurobiologist who still to this day build their own amplifiers, recording instruments, etc, but I would never for one moment call them engineers. Likewise, if an ecologist who uses statistical tools to study and model population growth, he or she may be considered a computational biologist, but he or she is not a statistician and I would argue the reverse is also true. There are professional statisticians who provide services tailored for biologist, but the statisticians themselves are not biologist. So, in response to the examples you gave. If the person who "models predator-prey" relationships is indeed the person who has done or at the very least design those experiments in this field, answers questions relevant to this field such as the change in gene flow, evolution, adaptation, etc and THEN uses a computer program or a piece of graph paper to model predator-prey relationships to provide a quantitative description to buttress his or her story, then yes, he or she is a bona-fide biologist. But if or she does exploratory data analysis for a living and happens to read a couple of biology journal articles on the Internet database, interacts with some biology colleagues, and then puts his or her two cents in by helping to model a growth trend in population, he or she is not a biologist anymore than an English literature professor who talks about how his or her emotions is mediated by his or her amygdala. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Intentions may be correct but the question or problem so to speak is more accurate. I am arguing that an economist is interested in say consumer behavior is not so much interested in the biological bases of consumer behavior as much as using the neurobiological or psychophysiological tools to study and predict consumer behavior. Likewise, a biologist who builds his or her own amplifier to amplify extracellular recordings from say an earthworm is not an engineer because he is not doing work or answering questions that builds on engineering as much as it is building on neurobiological knowledge. The point is this, neuroscience encompasses the economist's work, but neurobiology doesn't. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 02:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Looie496, I agree 100%. =) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
So here's where we are. I would say that we agree on several things such as to what is biological and what is not. I guess the question remains, "what is the difference, if any, between neurobiology and neuroscience." You argue that you cannot do neuroscience without neurobiology, hence they are both one and the same. I argue that you can, even if it requires a "little bit of neurobiology." Churchland for example, has a written an interesting book entitled "Neurophilosophy." Yes, she does use concepts and principles of neurobiology to formulate neurophilosophy. But the question remains, is she a neurobiologist (She is a philosopher by training)? Is what she is doing "neurobiology?" Is an electrical engineer a physicist? Is a clinical biopsychologist a psychiatrist? I would say no. Before studying leeches right now, I use to do research in behavioral pharmacology whereby I would study the effects of certain psychoactive substances on operant behavior. I took several graduate level in neurobiology and pharmacology to better understand the mechanisms of these substances. At best, I was an expert reader on this subject at that time. I did work that was at the intersection, as you say, between the two fields. But I had no illusions, I was not a neurobiologist as I did not do neurobiology research or neurobiology questions. The questions that I was asking were not biological anymore than the questions asked by a Piaget educational researchers who studies learning in children. Nevertheless, I did present my results at the Society for Neuroscience alongside other psychopharmacology students and researchers. I may have studied a subject that involve the nervous system and may allow myself the liberty to call myself a neuroscientist at that time, but I was not a neurobiologist and would not dare declare as such when standing alongside other neurobiologists at that time. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
http://www.apa.org/journals/bne/description.html Behavioral Neuroscience is a journal published by the American Psychological Association. It is a reasonably good journal that contains many articles published by neuroscientists trained in Psychology Departments or by physiological psychologist (behavioral neuroscientist or biopsychologist as they are called now). I suspect more publications to be from neuroscientists from neuroscience department and programs. In any event, I would say they have decent neurobiology research in there, but I would also say they also have a lot of neuroscience but not neurobiology research in this journal. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I may be wrong, but I suspect the term "behavioral neuroscience" may have a different meaning and connotation in the States than it does in Western Europe. Often, when North American scientists introduce themselves as Behavioral Neuroscientists, they are usually scientists who take a biological approach to answer what is traditionally psychological questions, e.g., anxiety, etc in psychophysiology. Again, I may not have hard evidence to back this up, but I am basing this on my readings of articles, textbooks, and interactions with other neuroscientists who do call themselves behavioral neuroscientists. The difference may in fact be petty. I also know neurobiologist who do not call themselves behavioral neuroscientists but instead, call themselves "neuroethologist," to emphasize the "natural type" of behavior and that they are studying these behaviors for their own sake, which is in contrast to behavioral neuroscientists who use animal behavior from rats and monkeys to model human behavior. With respect to the APA journal, many articles in it indeed are biological but just as many I would say are hybrid or not purely biological but more biopsychological,or quite neuroscientific =). mezzaninelounge ( talk) 20:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, you are right. I think we should narrow our reasons. Here are mine for keeping neurobiology separate from neuroscience. The reasons are that:
A) Neuroscience is a broader term that encompasses biological, cognitive, psychological, mathematical, engineering, etc approaches to the study of the nervous system. It is a term appropriate for any basic, translational, applied, medical, and clinical research that involves the nervous system, whether directly or indirectly. It is more inclusive and open.
B) Neurobiology is more restrictive. The term itself connotes a biological approach of some kind, by studying the nervous system and its components for its own sake. It is first and foremost a basic science and its subject matter is the biology of the nervous system.
C) Not to digress too much, but even the practitioners are a little different. Science is after all, a human enterprise and our knowledge is based on how scientists approach them. Thus, a neurobiologist who does neurobiological research would emphasize and study the biological bases of the nervous system and answer questions about the nervous system that are germane to biologists such as the structure, function, and evolution of ion channels or an evolutionary trend towards cephalization in vertebrates and some invertebrates. A neuroscientist "may or may not" do this. And this I think is a real and fundamental difference. As subtle as it may seem to some, I think it is one of those important nuances that would be lost if we were to merge the two articles together.
D) If you agree that there is a difference between science and biology or science and physics for example, then surely you must agree that there is a difference between neuroscience and neurobiology, biophysics and bioscience, biochemistry and chemical science, behavioral biology and behavioral neurobiology, etc. The list goes on. These words have important meanings that I think should not be taken lightly or use too loosely so as to be vacuous.
At this point, you are right, we do agree more than we disagree. I won't push this much further except to say that perhaps we could invite "neurowikipedians" or neuroadmins (I don't know any) to take a vote or come to some consensus. As you know, I prefer that we do a major revision to the article first. If that doesn't work, then perhaps I may be persuaded to try another solution such as the one that you made earlier even though I might find it a little painful. =) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 01:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, thanks for giving my suggestion a chance at least. Given the size of this article, revisions will take a while. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 15:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
To me, the following statement from the link above shows that the terms are interchangeable (my italisations), especially the last two occurrences: "The Department of Neurobiology, established in 1966 with Stephen W. Kuffler as Chair, was the first of its kind. The intent was to bring together members of traditional departments-- physiologists, biochemists, and anatomists-- in order to understand the principles governing communication between cells in the nervous system. This interdisciplinary approach was revolutionary at the time, and the interdisciplinary theme has continued to permeate the evolution of the field of neuroscience ever since. The founding faculty and their students posed questions and made discoveries that helped define the field of modern neurobiology. The Department emphasized scholarship and education from the start, and many young scientists who thrived in this atmosphere went on to seed neuroscience programs throughout this country and abroad. The expansion of neuroscience research over the past generation has been astounding. The excitement and advances of modern neurobiology have attracted many superb scientists and some of the very best students in the biological sciences." -- Ettrig ( talk) 18:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Duly noted. Biology is also a part of science and not separate from it. Should we also make biology a redirect of science and restrict scientific categories to "mechanical science," "electrical science," living science, etc? I just don't see how making one term a redirect to another for administrative purposes is a good reason merging the two articles mezzaninelounge ( talk) 21:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC) P.S. That's a good point. I suspect the reader who is interested in the biology of the nervous system would be disappointed to find a redirect to an article that is extremely broad and provides only brief mentions on reflexes and relationships with other fields. Perhaps the best solution would be to expand or complete the categories below the neurobiology article so as to make it more complete. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 21:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Looie496 for doing that. =) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 00:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
We discussed the above very thoroughly here, and reached what I think was consensus at the WikiProject talk page RfC. Since then a lot of time has passed, and I've been periodically making reminder comments, and I'm not aware of any objections. So what I'm about to do, for now, is to create a redirect from this page to neuroscience. The page history here will still be intact for anyone who wants to merge material here into cellular neuroscience or elsewhere. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's be aware of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Neuroscience#Society for Neuroscience is Coming. The Neuroscience and Neurobiology articles are among the first place where new and naive people are likely to show up -- this might already be happening. Let's try to treat newcomers, who are likely to be scientists or graduate students, with patience and respect if we can, pretty please. In particular, it would be good to make a special effort to avoid harsh or terse reverts to what look like good faith edits. Looie496 ( talk) 15:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
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The term neurobiology is used indistinguishably from Neuroscience (Eg: Principles of Neural Science by Kandel et. al. use the term 'Neurobiology of Behavior'). Using it to describe just the study of neurons at a cellular level would be a restrictive usage. 'Cellular neuroscience' is a term that better reflects this field (Eg. Journal of Neuroscience classifies the single cell electrophysiology (like patch clamp) articles under the heading Cellular/Molecular ; This is also the heading under which Fundamental Neuroscience editors Squire et. al list their sections on action potentials and like [1]). So I propose that neurobiology become a redirect to Neuroscience and its contents moved to a new article to be named Cellular neuroscience. Please give your opinion. Shushruth 07:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. No doubt, there is an overlap in usage in some textbooks, but there is a fundamental distinction between neuroscience and neurobiology. A computer scientist for example who does computer simulations of the brain may be called a neuroscientist, but he or she is by no means a neurobiologist. I believe the wikipedia article clearly explains this. Moreover, the definition provided in the article is very much a paraphrase of the definition provided by Gordon Sheperd's textbook neurobiology. The distinction between neurobiology and neuroscience rests on the suffix -biology and -science. Take away the prefix neuro-, and you can still talk about the "biology of behavior" in a "principles of science" textbook. But that would not make biology and science anymore synonymous than neuroscience and neurobiology. As for terms such as "neurobiology of behavior, neurobiology of drug abuse," these phrases simply mean understanding studying the neurocellular bases of behavior from a biological perspective, i.e., no computer modeling, etc. And they all fall into neurobiology. The term "cellular neuroscience" is more restrictive than neurobiology. It is also convenient catergory in the journal of neuroscience, a journal that also publishes works by neuroscientists who are not necessarily neurobiologists.
mezzaninelounge 01:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Let me know what I can do to help. mezzaninelounge 08:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Although I generally support mezzanine's comment, I do not agree with his second sentence. Computational modeling is actually the area where the distinction between neuroscience and neurobiology became the more apparent. Computational Neuroscience generally describes a field overlapping cognitive science and system neuroscience. The models developed are either entirely phenomenologic (mathematical description not related to the biological substrate), or based on formal neural networks. On the contrary, Computational Neurobiology is used most often to cover the modeling of cellular behavior (axon growth, synaptic processing etc.) and the multicompartment models based on the cable approximation and description of ion channel (e.g. with the software GENESIS or NEURON). It is true that when it comes to integrate and fire neurons, the frontier is somehow a bit blurry.
You are right. No disagreement =)
mezzaninelounge (
talk) 00:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed a typo in the fifth line in "Neuronal Function". "....action potentials have the advantage of travelling over long distances of neuronal processes...." I'm juust a wikibeginer, but I just thought I let you know:-)-- Blackmage337 17:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)blackmage337
Thanks. You can go ahead and make changes to any typos you see. :) mezzaninelounge 19:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
As already remarked above, Neurobiology is just a synonym of Neuroscience and should become a redirect to that article. The contents of the current "neurobiology" article could be merged to Cellular neuroscience. In fact, it seems to me that it could just replace that (stub) article, which does not contain any real info not yet already present here. Any objections? -- Crusio ( talk) 14:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I strongly object to any proposal of merger. I would much rather improve the current content in the article. Please bear in mind that the definition of neurobiology in this article was taken from "Neurobiology" by Gordon Sheperd. A merger is not trivial and should be given more thought than a "as far as I'm concerned" rationale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielkueh ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 21:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Point taken. Let's back up a little bit. I apologize if the tone of my objection may have sounded unflattery. I am well aware that you are a neurogeneticist and I myself am of course a neurobiologist. I agree that this article is not well put together and does requires a major rewrite that better reflects its title. That said, I argue that there is a real distinction between neuroscience and neurobiology. Neuroscience is a much broader term. It is not just about the subject matter, it is also about the approach. Neurobiology, being first and foremost a biological science, is much more restrictive than neuroscience as it studies the nervous system and its components within the context of evolution, cell biology, physiology, and behavior which tend to be the major themes in biology. It is also first and foremost, an academic science and not a clinical or a translational science as it is concerned with basic fundamental concepts that describe the structure and function of the nervous system, and how these structures and functions are evolutionarily conserved in all animals, whether vertebrates or invertebrates. In fact, much of our understanding of the biophysics of neurobiology came from the use of invertebrates. Granted, these things are also included in neuroscience, but like everything else, it is a matter of scope and emphasis. I understand that laypersons and some neuroscientists/neurobiologists may use these term interchangeably, but to merge these two articles would be a disservice. Rather than doing a merger, I would propose instead a "major reorganization and rewrite" of this article in keeping with all other standard neurobiology texts. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 22:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I saw the Harvard webpage. Yes, they do use it interchangeably. But consider the context. If A is a subdivision of A` and if I use A` alongside A and vice versa does not mean A` = A. In fact, it is common for life scientists to use science and biology interchangeably (e.g., scientific research, biological research, or I'm a scientist, I'm a biologist) but surely you would agree that science is more than just biology. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 22:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
In an ideal world, I would agree with the statement "you cannot be a neuroscientist and not at the same time be a biologist." I would love that to be the true. But it isn't. You can study neuroscience from a cognitive, behavioral, and clinical perspective, but you cannot do that with neurobiology. For example, a neuropsychologist who provides neurological assessments and does research on the subject may be a neuroscientist, but he or she is by no means a neurobiologist. Another example, an applied mathematician may construct and derive equations to model say a biophysical activity, etc, but if he or she doesn't do any experiments that involve "living systems" whether it is a bacteria, a zygote, an eye, or even a full blown in vivo animal, he or she is not a neurobiologist. The biology is simply not there. Finally, one more example, an M.D. who does surgery may use the techniques and knowledge that neuroscientist develops, but unless he or she contributes to the building of knowledge, that M.D. is not a scientist no matter how many lab coats he or she may wear. He or she is a highly skilled technician and I do not mean this in any derogatory sense. Thus, I argue that there is a difference, that is both real and fundamental. Being a biologist, let alone a neurobiologist is more than just using a graphing program, an imaging device, etc, it is the whole package. It is about doing basic science to answer questions and problems that are fundamental to our understanding of the biology of the nervous system. These answers may or may not have translational or clinical value. Call me old school, but you don't become a biologist by majoring in biology or calling yourself a biologist. You become a biologist by DOING biology. I am not being sentimental when I say this, "I have met many neuroscientists, but I cannot say I have met many neurobiologist." mezzaninelounge ( talk) 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
One more clarification. Neuroscience may or may not be neurobiology, but it is not "neurobiology + something else." Just as a mammal may or may not be a cow, but it is not "a cow + something else." mezzaninelounge ( talk) 18:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
"I cannot envision something belonging to the realm of neuroscience, but not being biology." Again, in an ideal world, where all neuroscience and neuroscience related training program are run ONLY by biology-minded faculties and researchers and produce only "biology-minded individuals," then yes, I would agree. But it is not. I find it misleading and even unprofessional if say an economist who first uses the tools of EEG to study consumer behavior and then calls himself a neurobiologist. At best (and even then, I wonder), he is a neuroscientist or more specifically neuroeconomist, but not a neurobiologist. For that professional, the end is not the biology of decision making as much as using biological tools to predict and study decision making itself. Likewise, I know many old school neurobiologist who still to this day build their own amplifiers, recording instruments, etc, but I would never for one moment call them engineers. Likewise, if an ecologist who uses statistical tools to study and model population growth, he or she may be considered a computational biologist, but he or she is not a statistician and I would argue the reverse is also true. There are professional statisticians who provide services tailored for biologist, but the statisticians themselves are not biologist. So, in response to the examples you gave. If the person who "models predator-prey" relationships is indeed the person who has done or at the very least design those experiments in this field, answers questions relevant to this field such as the change in gene flow, evolution, adaptation, etc and THEN uses a computer program or a piece of graph paper to model predator-prey relationships to provide a quantitative description to buttress his or her story, then yes, he or she is a bona-fide biologist. But if or she does exploratory data analysis for a living and happens to read a couple of biology journal articles on the Internet database, interacts with some biology colleagues, and then puts his or her two cents in by helping to model a growth trend in population, he or she is not a biologist anymore than an English literature professor who talks about how his or her emotions is mediated by his or her amygdala. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Intentions may be correct but the question or problem so to speak is more accurate. I am arguing that an economist is interested in say consumer behavior is not so much interested in the biological bases of consumer behavior as much as using the neurobiological or psychophysiological tools to study and predict consumer behavior. Likewise, a biologist who builds his or her own amplifier to amplify extracellular recordings from say an earthworm is not an engineer because he is not doing work or answering questions that builds on engineering as much as it is building on neurobiological knowledge. The point is this, neuroscience encompasses the economist's work, but neurobiology doesn't. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 02:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Looie496, I agree 100%. =) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
So here's where we are. I would say that we agree on several things such as to what is biological and what is not. I guess the question remains, "what is the difference, if any, between neurobiology and neuroscience." You argue that you cannot do neuroscience without neurobiology, hence they are both one and the same. I argue that you can, even if it requires a "little bit of neurobiology." Churchland for example, has a written an interesting book entitled "Neurophilosophy." Yes, she does use concepts and principles of neurobiology to formulate neurophilosophy. But the question remains, is she a neurobiologist (She is a philosopher by training)? Is what she is doing "neurobiology?" Is an electrical engineer a physicist? Is a clinical biopsychologist a psychiatrist? I would say no. Before studying leeches right now, I use to do research in behavioral pharmacology whereby I would study the effects of certain psychoactive substances on operant behavior. I took several graduate level in neurobiology and pharmacology to better understand the mechanisms of these substances. At best, I was an expert reader on this subject at that time. I did work that was at the intersection, as you say, between the two fields. But I had no illusions, I was not a neurobiologist as I did not do neurobiology research or neurobiology questions. The questions that I was asking were not biological anymore than the questions asked by a Piaget educational researchers who studies learning in children. Nevertheless, I did present my results at the Society for Neuroscience alongside other psychopharmacology students and researchers. I may have studied a subject that involve the nervous system and may allow myself the liberty to call myself a neuroscientist at that time, but I was not a neurobiologist and would not dare declare as such when standing alongside other neurobiologists at that time. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
http://www.apa.org/journals/bne/description.html Behavioral Neuroscience is a journal published by the American Psychological Association. It is a reasonably good journal that contains many articles published by neuroscientists trained in Psychology Departments or by physiological psychologist (behavioral neuroscientist or biopsychologist as they are called now). I suspect more publications to be from neuroscientists from neuroscience department and programs. In any event, I would say they have decent neurobiology research in there, but I would also say they also have a lot of neuroscience but not neurobiology research in this journal. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 19:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I may be wrong, but I suspect the term "behavioral neuroscience" may have a different meaning and connotation in the States than it does in Western Europe. Often, when North American scientists introduce themselves as Behavioral Neuroscientists, they are usually scientists who take a biological approach to answer what is traditionally psychological questions, e.g., anxiety, etc in psychophysiology. Again, I may not have hard evidence to back this up, but I am basing this on my readings of articles, textbooks, and interactions with other neuroscientists who do call themselves behavioral neuroscientists. The difference may in fact be petty. I also know neurobiologist who do not call themselves behavioral neuroscientists but instead, call themselves "neuroethologist," to emphasize the "natural type" of behavior and that they are studying these behaviors for their own sake, which is in contrast to behavioral neuroscientists who use animal behavior from rats and monkeys to model human behavior. With respect to the APA journal, many articles in it indeed are biological but just as many I would say are hybrid or not purely biological but more biopsychological,or quite neuroscientific =). mezzaninelounge ( talk) 20:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, you are right. I think we should narrow our reasons. Here are mine for keeping neurobiology separate from neuroscience. The reasons are that:
A) Neuroscience is a broader term that encompasses biological, cognitive, psychological, mathematical, engineering, etc approaches to the study of the nervous system. It is a term appropriate for any basic, translational, applied, medical, and clinical research that involves the nervous system, whether directly or indirectly. It is more inclusive and open.
B) Neurobiology is more restrictive. The term itself connotes a biological approach of some kind, by studying the nervous system and its components for its own sake. It is first and foremost a basic science and its subject matter is the biology of the nervous system.
C) Not to digress too much, but even the practitioners are a little different. Science is after all, a human enterprise and our knowledge is based on how scientists approach them. Thus, a neurobiologist who does neurobiological research would emphasize and study the biological bases of the nervous system and answer questions about the nervous system that are germane to biologists such as the structure, function, and evolution of ion channels or an evolutionary trend towards cephalization in vertebrates and some invertebrates. A neuroscientist "may or may not" do this. And this I think is a real and fundamental difference. As subtle as it may seem to some, I think it is one of those important nuances that would be lost if we were to merge the two articles together.
D) If you agree that there is a difference between science and biology or science and physics for example, then surely you must agree that there is a difference between neuroscience and neurobiology, biophysics and bioscience, biochemistry and chemical science, behavioral biology and behavioral neurobiology, etc. The list goes on. These words have important meanings that I think should not be taken lightly or use too loosely so as to be vacuous.
At this point, you are right, we do agree more than we disagree. I won't push this much further except to say that perhaps we could invite "neurowikipedians" or neuroadmins (I don't know any) to take a vote or come to some consensus. As you know, I prefer that we do a major revision to the article first. If that doesn't work, then perhaps I may be persuaded to try another solution such as the one that you made earlier even though I might find it a little painful. =) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 01:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, thanks for giving my suggestion a chance at least. Given the size of this article, revisions will take a while. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 15:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
To me, the following statement from the link above shows that the terms are interchangeable (my italisations), especially the last two occurrences: "The Department of Neurobiology, established in 1966 with Stephen W. Kuffler as Chair, was the first of its kind. The intent was to bring together members of traditional departments-- physiologists, biochemists, and anatomists-- in order to understand the principles governing communication between cells in the nervous system. This interdisciplinary approach was revolutionary at the time, and the interdisciplinary theme has continued to permeate the evolution of the field of neuroscience ever since. The founding faculty and their students posed questions and made discoveries that helped define the field of modern neurobiology. The Department emphasized scholarship and education from the start, and many young scientists who thrived in this atmosphere went on to seed neuroscience programs throughout this country and abroad. The expansion of neuroscience research over the past generation has been astounding. The excitement and advances of modern neurobiology have attracted many superb scientists and some of the very best students in the biological sciences." -- Ettrig ( talk) 18:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Duly noted. Biology is also a part of science and not separate from it. Should we also make biology a redirect of science and restrict scientific categories to "mechanical science," "electrical science," living science, etc? I just don't see how making one term a redirect to another for administrative purposes is a good reason merging the two articles mezzaninelounge ( talk) 21:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC) P.S. That's a good point. I suspect the reader who is interested in the biology of the nervous system would be disappointed to find a redirect to an article that is extremely broad and provides only brief mentions on reflexes and relationships with other fields. Perhaps the best solution would be to expand or complete the categories below the neurobiology article so as to make it more complete. mezzaninelounge ( talk) 21:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Looie496 for doing that. =) mezzaninelounge ( talk) 00:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
We discussed the above very thoroughly here, and reached what I think was consensus at the WikiProject talk page RfC. Since then a lot of time has passed, and I've been periodically making reminder comments, and I'm not aware of any objections. So what I'm about to do, for now, is to create a redirect from this page to neuroscience. The page history here will still be intact for anyone who wants to merge material here into cellular neuroscience or elsewhere. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's be aware of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Neuroscience#Society for Neuroscience is Coming. The Neuroscience and Neurobiology articles are among the first place where new and naive people are likely to show up -- this might already be happening. Let's try to treat newcomers, who are likely to be scientists or graduate students, with patience and respect if we can, pretty please. In particular, it would be good to make a special effort to avoid harsh or terse reverts to what look like good faith edits. Looie496 ( talk) 15:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)