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Oh joy, Christmas is on its way. I have just started removing early critters from the NLP bible and looking at making brief. I noticed that science still gets a great deal less air time and weight than the NLP section. I'm sure that will please the babblers. Whatever, lets see what we can do about condensing things. I removed the NLP for coppers section. It could be reduced to a line and placed somewhere else (perhaps in the outrageous claims section:). Cheers DaveRight 03:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Well done chaps. Looks like we'll have it back in shape in no time. Gave it the once-over and nipped out some repeats. Keep up the good work.
AliceDeGrey
09:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I've made some content preserving changes to the introduction and overview. Some of the grammar was poor and the expression awkward. Some attributions are required for the the material in the overview, eg. foundational assumptions, brain lateralization. Can the person that originally inserted that copy add some citations? flavius 15:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes Flavius. The content is worth preserving. When it is foreshortened it tends to be denied by NLP promoters: "they didn't say that!" and they delete. Looks fine to me. HeadleyDown 16:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree it is far better when seperated like it is. I don't wish to assume bad faith, but the history of this article shows extreme promotion by NLP people. On top of NLP blowing its own trumpet throughout the literature will make for a very promotional NLP section and there is not much we can do about that apart from point out the obvious bias of fans. NLP fans also seem to consider themselves persuasive, and they think they can reframe the article to suit themselves and do some kind of magic to make everything seem great. Of course the article will simply be balanced out using criticism. I don't think there will be a problem with that though, as long as mediators understand that the pro and con will definitely be quite a contrast. But it is a natural effect of NLP with its intrinsic hype, and the harsh words that science has to say about that (science doesn't like that sort of thing). As long as the article is kept within a reasonable size, and the NLP promoters keep the views open and do not whitewash, I think things will be a lot easier from now. JC
I have reworked the section titled 'Basic Tenets'. These were a mix of tenets and techniques so I renamed it 'Fundamentals' and re-cast the behavioral cues in terms of Dilts' B.A.G.E.L model. I think it reads clearer now. flavius 13:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Where is the discussion regarding the disputed protions of the 'Overview'. The foundational assumptions appear accurate (I scanned through some of my seminar manuals -- Sikes, James -- and was able to corroborate most of them. Perhaps the problem is that these largely implicit assumptions are not conventionally presented in this format. Admittedly, when the assumptions implicit in NLP are made explicit NLP comes to resemble Dianetics. I suspect that this is the source of any dispute. I can attempt to rework this section, presenting the foundational assumptions in a more NLP idiomatic manner and with citations. Shall I proceed? flavius 03:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Some minor fixes:
FT2 04:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I have reorganized a couple of sections - thus made "overview" a section including subsections for engram, brain lateralization, foundations, etc. I think it makes more sense that way when you read the contents. FT2 07:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. NLP does not receive wide support. Just because it is listed in some associations (alongside primal scream therapy, EFT and other such pseudos) it does not mean wide support. To prove wide support in this case you would probably need to conduct a poll. And the result would be "what's NLP?" or "you must be kidding" etc. Just to keep things equal and easy to handle, it was suggested that we keep a nice free space for NLP promotion, and a place for criticisms. Criticisms does not mean "mixed reviews". It means people do not like these bits about NLP. You already have the associations that support NLP in the promotional sections. If you want to avoid the problems you caused previously, I suggest you start acting cooperatively and just do your thing with writing dubious sections about cognitive awareness etc.
HeadleyDown
14:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I reworked the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. It began "NLP authors tend to emphasize a focus on obtaining results rather than working with theory" and then proceeded to outline the rudiments of NLP theory. It was also contaiminated with elements of technique and objectives. The stuff about the Meta/Milton Model is redundant and in any event it doesn't belong in a subsection that is supposed to describe the foundational assumptions. Also I created a new section about NLP practitioners stated position on theory and put the relevant text (that was in 'Foundational Assumptions' in there. flavius 05:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I've extended the 'Foundational Assumptions' into a set of basic premises that undergird and distinguish NLP. I don't think its complete and the last two don't appear right. GregA had some ideas about NLPs foundational core. GregA, what do you think? flavius 06:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Flavius. It looks much better that way. You may expect the NLP whitewashers will change it back though. I'm glad the article has become more manageable. It also makes it more obvious when FT2 and the other promoters run around in their whitewashing panic. Whatever happens though, there is still a lot more clarification for the criticisms section. I have just got through some interesting stuff from Europe criticising NLP. I'll add when I've more time. ATB AliceDeGrey 07:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Note: I'm still working on the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. I'll complete the citations and extend the list of premises shortly. Bear with me. All premises will preferably be sourced from NLP primary texts and cited properly. flavius 22:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to expand the 'Stated Attitude to Theory' sub-section. Dilts et al (1980) devotes a few pages to distinguishing NLP as a 'model' and not a 'theory'. The terms 'model' and 'theory' are used by Ditls et al (1980) in an idiosyncratic manner entirely inconsistent with their usage within the domains from which they originate (namely science and philosophy of science). Their motivations for this idiosyncracy are a matter of conjecture and potentially POV but its existence is a matter of brute fact. I am considering including an authoritative definition of 'theory' and 'model' alongside Dilts et al's because this matter of NLP being purportedly atheoretical and hence somehow beyond the scope of scientific testing or even meta-theoretical analyses recurs in discussions, seminars and texts. Any opinions?
I propose that the references section be one monolithic (sorted) list for the following reasons: it would make redundancy easier to eliminate and it would prevent it in the future, references would be easier to locate and it is conventional practice. flavius 00:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
ere is a list of my recent edits [2]. I've moved the criticism of application to underneath each application to make it easier to read. This section can be cut down alot and the tabloid journalism removed. -- Comaze 23:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze and all the other fanatics, (especially FT2). Adding little bits and pieces of non-criticism to the criticism section (actually they are rather large and leading the article towards the 100kb mark) in order to negate it somehow is completely transparently biased behaviour. You will simply get reverted doing so. Presently, the article is in the process of re-organization (within each respective section) and as such, we could do without all the sneaking around deleting conclusive criticisms and replacing them with brainless rambles from NLP excuse literature. Cited or not, those sort of dodgy edits will be booted off the article by me or anyone else with a brain. Just keep it in line with clarification, rather than deleting criticism, or muddying and clouding issues. I am not just picking on you Comaze (though you have spent months sneaking around like this). This also applies to the other desperately unconvincing NLP fanatics. DaveRight 03:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I have created a new criticism subsection titles 'Atheoretical Pretence' and I renamed the 'Overview' section 'NLP and Theory'. I removed the critical remark to the criticism section. Any feedback appreciated. flavius 06:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello Flavius Vanillus and all. I am mostly happy to tidy up (I think its time now most of the waring is over). I think the Atheoretical Pretence section is fine and above board as long as it remains in the criticisms section (it is a criticism after all). Keep up the clarity! Camridge 06:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the subsections titled 'Goals' and 'View on Cognitive Understanding of Problems' (?). These were terribly written, redundant and lacked cohesion. I can add something about the problem insight. The NLP position can be stated in a sentence. I also trimmed down the presuppositions section. I'm still not happy with it. I also removed the reference some obscure British NLP trainers views on the presuppositions. I think Dilts and DeLozier's views on presuppositions are authoritative since they contributed to their formulation. I added a quote to the Extraordinary Claims section regarding the topic of genius. In light of this quote I think the defensive statement that in effect says "oh no, no one said we can make you an Einstein' should be re,oved. I don't like the list of NLP techniques. It's awful. It should be replaced by a succinct description of a few representative techniques. The Milton/Meta model section is also terrible. I'll rewrite it. At the risk of sounding provincial I get the impression that much of the prose that is awful was authored by those for which English is not a first language -- it reads like 'broken English'. Comaze and FT2 is English your first language? flavius 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
mmmm!
Comaze. I am just wondering what it would look like if you went through and "copyedited" the article. Somehow I think it would need some further adjustments:) I'm not psychic, I just have a powerful intuition about these matters! HeadleyDown 11:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I decided to get more active and I added some lit by Yves Winkin, a world class anthropologist from the Sorbonne in France. He seems to be a highly quotable source. Camridge 03:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi All, there appears to be an arbitration page open for this article with space for requests and decisions. Are all involved editors aware of this?
Hello VoiceOfAll. The author is well published, but some of the statements are misplaced according to agreement. I can find better places for them in addition to NPOVing. HeadleyDown 03:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello VoiceOfAll and Comaze. I reviewed some of the edits that Comaze is troubled by, namely, Cults and Winkin. The cults section I have to admit is tenuous. The only notable author cited is Singer. 'Vexen Crabtree' is a 'Punk/Goth' guy with a self-indulgent web site. I'm sure Vexen is a nice chap and he has his fashion worked out (judging by the images on his website) but I don't think his opinion counts for much. Also, the Watchman Expositor site is written from a an ultra orthodox Protestant/Baptist view. Any doctrine that isn't based on a literalist Biblical interpretation is deemed suspect by this group, including the two seminal branches of Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism). I have no problem with the cults section being trimmed down to only include Singers view until further (credible) views are sourced on this topic. I also read Camridge's edit based on Winkin and they look good, i.e. well sourced, but perhaps truncated. Expanding Winkin's position such that reasons are provided would eliminate the appearance of 'bad faith'. My concern though is that Comaze would then object to the coverage given to Winkin's view. This -- I think -- would indicate bad faith on Comaze's part. flavius 06:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this sentence accurately reflects Fritz Perls' involvement with Dianetics:
I can't find any other source indicating that Perls "promoted and operated a Dianetics clinic" at all, let alone in the late 1960s, and I question whether that statement is a fair representation of Clarkson and Mackewn.
I do not have a copy of that book, but neither the full-text search feature provided by Google ( http://print.google.com/print?hl=en&id=dzB8lFoyH8sC) nor the one provided by Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0803984537) yield any results when searching on "Dianetics".
Perls did investigate Dianetics from 1949-50. He wrote the introduction to Winter's 1951 "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics". However, by that time, he had already come to conclusions that would seem to preclude him taking Dianetics up again in the last years of his life.
(from http://www.xenu.net/archive/fifties/e510000.htm -- note: not a neutral site)
Considering how much critical material on Dianetics and Scientology is published on the Internet, I would expect to find many more references affirming Perls' alleged re-involvement in his later years.
In any case, I would like to suggest that this sentence, in the absence of more solid evidence, be struck from the article or otherwise edited to avoid misrepresenting Perls' investigations into Dianetics. For that matter, I fail to see how that sentence or the following portion of the paragraph that it appears in sheds any light on the nature of NLP.
I would be glad to work on this edit myself, but I'm not sure how -- aside from posting this section to "talk". I am a wikipedia newbie! Thanks. Shunpiker 19:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Dianetics was actually still in vogue during the 60s (or at least, some therapists (especially gestalt) still considered it a reasonable technique) and the gestalt theory of memory is pretty much identical to that of dianetics. Perls actually ran a dianetics clinic during the 50s and 60s, but he also introduced wierd new age zen ideas of awareness that he had picked up on his travels. Perl's dianetics background sheds a great deal of light on NLP. Firstly, they are both extremely similar in principle and form. They both use command hypnotics, Korzybsky's map territory, engrams, trauma change, belief in unlimited potential, use of metaphor, the use of ritual, they are both psuedoscientific and are often classified together according to many scientists, and the financial success of dianetics/scientology was a powerful motivator for all the more recent LGAT cults of the 70s 80s and 90s such as NLP, Tony Robbins, Landmark Forum, EST and so on. Basically most people who saw the beginning and end of the dianetics trend in psychotherapy tends to see NLP in the same light. A lot of the books and papers criticising NLP or classifying it as a fringe therapy also talks of dianetics in the same sense (pseudoscientific, scientifically unsupported). However, there is some evidence that places dianetics as less ineffective than NLP on the whole (stronger placebo effects with client/auditor). Anyway, the fact that Perls actively promoted and practiced dianetics is reason enough to place the fact in the article background. Regards HeadleyDown 06:06, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley, I understand that you believe that Perls promoted Dianetics and ran a Dianetics clinic, but what I'm looking for is documentation of those allegations.
As mentioned above, the footnote in the article (Clarkson and Mackewn, 1993) appears to be spurious. Furthermore there is documentation that Perls investigated Dianetics in 1949-1950, but publicly concluded that no "intelligent person" could or should practice it -- a rather peculiar form of advocacy, don't you think?
Since Perls was one of the "models" for NLP, he belongs in the article, but painting him as a Dianetics zealot doesn't fit with the facts, at least as I can discern or document them. If you can back up your assertions about Perls and Dianetics, please do so. I would definitely want to know if they were true, and the article would benefit from the substantiation. If those allegations can't be substantiated, however, I sustain that they do not belong.
Thanks, Shunpiker 08:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Shunpiker. Don't take Perl's comments individually. He was quite a contrary chap. Look at "Perls" (I can't remember the author), and most other of his biographies. His support of dianetics is documented there. I will provide more sources in time. He wasn't a zealot as such. He included a lot of other wierd new agey kind of ideas in his methods. Anyway, here is just one link I found just from a simple goodle search "Perls, a staunch supporter of dianetics"
http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_1.html. Regards
HeadleyDown
16:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley,
Upon further investigation it appears to me that the quote I found from the "A Doctor's Report" -- "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." -- comes from J.A. Winter, not from Perls. My mistake. The source I was quoting includes the header "Introduction", but on re-inspection appears to skip over the actual body of the introduction. In any case that quote is attributed to Winter in the Dianetics article.
The Fischer paper calls Perls "a staunch adherent of dianetics", but provides no substantiation for that statement. To the contrary, it proceeds to quote Perls (from his introduction to Winter's book) as criticizing L. Ron Hubbard for the unscientific character of his work -- presumably Dianetics.
Please do find whatever evidence you can to support the link between Perls and Dianetics, but until that evidence is located, should Wikipedia be in the business of repeating the rather serious allegation that Perls advocated and practiced Dianetics? If Wikipedia is going to assert that, shouldn't it be recorded on the pages for Fritz Perls and Dianetics? Currently there is no mention of Dianetics on the Perls page and no mention of Perls on the Dianetics page. It strikes me odd that the NLP article is the only one to make note of this rather significant association.
Yours, Shunpiker 21:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Yo Shunpiker. Serious allegation? Sounds like you really don't like Dianetics! Not biased at all are you? You should read what Tom Cruize says about Scientology. Anyway, from what I read, Perls was against Hubbard going for the religion idea in order to promote his ideas. Perls wanted to do clinical studies on his dianetics practice (with Hubbards funding). It didn't happen. Don't take wikipedia as a source. If this article was only run by the likes of Comaze and the other fanatics, there would be no criticism section at all (or it would end up promoting indirectly). Basically, go and do some library searches. The info is everywhere. DaveRight 02:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi again Shunpiker. Here are some more links. They are direct and indirect. The gestalt psychology ones (a fringe therapy) show that it was influenced by dianetics anyway. Even without Perl's strong implication, gestalt therapy itself is influenced by dianetics. Remember that most of the psychology background of Bandler and co is gestalt.
http://www.sonoma.edu/users/d/daniels/Gestaltsummary.html
http://www.larabell.org/ladder.html
http://co-cornucopia.org.uk/coco/articles/cocother/cocoth2.html
http://www.pacificnet.net/~cmoore/ghill/esalen2.htm
http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/h/hubbard_l_r.shtml
Whatever, dianetics is everywhere in NLP. Not just in theory, but in practice. I'm not suggesting that you join or become an auditor:) but have a delve into auditing and you will see the embryo of NLP.
Here you can see Perls making the same kind of grandiose claims as NLPbrains http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1165
Whatever, Perls was a dianetics fan, and Bandler and Grinder wanted the same fame, adulation, and finances when they developed NLP - thats how EST developed also. History repeats! DaveRight 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Do we have any notable/verifiable sources as per Shunpiker's request? -- Comaze 04:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi everybody,
Thanks to DaveRight for gathering links about Perls and Dianetics and Comaze for clarifying the history of the Perls-Dianetics discussion in this article.
I agree with DaveRight that there is evidence that Perls was influenced by Dianetics. At least one of the links ("Fritz Perls and Gestalt Therapy") is Perls-friendly and says the same.
But influence is relative, and can't be read as uncritical support, nor can it be taken out of the context of other influences. Freud, Jung and modern dance are also listed among Perls' influences.
We're left still without proof that Perls can accurately be described as a "Dianetics proponent", or that he at any time operated a Dianetics clinic.
I don't want to get drawn into a debate of the merits or demerits or Dianetics, or of Perls for that matter. But yes, to my sensibility (we all have our biases) accusing Perls of promoting Dianetics and running a Dianetics clinic is serious. It would affect my opinion of him. Because of that, I want to verify whether or not those allegations are true.
I appreciate the efforts of editors on either side of the NLP debate to verify those claims.
Thanks,
Shunpiker
04:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Shunpiker. I think framing some parts of the article may be in order. Certainly, gestalt therapy itself is not maintream at all. Freud and Jung include so much pseudoscience it is sometimes difficult to work out what has support and what doesn't, but the fact remains, NLP has used as many dubious sources as possible to form its rather conveniently saleable sets of notions. Modern dance just shows how fringe Perls was back in the 60s. From what I read about him, he seems to have spent the majority of his time at Esalen institute cavorting around naked, and smoking pot. I think anyone who has read a biography about Perls would come to the conclusion that he was surrounded by crackpots the whole time, and he himself did so many odd things in his life that made him somehow charismatic. The NLP lot could use any part of his life to claim all kinds of renegade magic. That is primarily what NLP is about: Inflated claims, but no delivery (according to scientific testing). They built NLP on a set of myths, and supported it with more popular myths as time went by, simply to create salespitch. Camridge 04:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few dispute tags to mark statments questioned by Shunpiker until we can verify the claims from reputable sources. The tags were removed :( -- Comaze 07:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, you seem to be very ready with those dubious tags. I noticed your use of tags to advocate the removal of multiple cited sources and even the removal of alleged sockpuppets. I will remove them on principle. According to your definition of dubious, NLP itself should have a dubious tag. Camridge 05:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Oi Comaze. If you are looking for on topic, accurate, objective, authoritative etc, then why the hell do you keep deleting the new age label? It is all of those things, and most of all, it is a scholarly label. I think maybe you are just pretending to be neutral:) Or could I possibly be wrong? DaveRight 03:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I know of at least one credible source that mentions Perls as an advocate of Dianetics: 'A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientlogy, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed' by Jon Atack. According to Atack, "Fritz Perls, founder of Gestalt therapy, defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetic counselling." (Ch. 2, [8]) flavius 03:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Can someone retrieve the following, it's a prmary source:
Title Fritz Perls / Petruska Clarkson, Jennifer Mackewn. Publisher London : Sage, 1993- and - Naranjo, Claudio. Gestalt therapy : the attitude & practice of an atheoretical experientialism / Claudio Naranjo. Publisher Carmarthen : Crown House Pub., 2000. Camridge 05:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi folks,
Thanks to Camridge (that was you, right?) for editing out the most egregious of the unsubstantiated statements about Perls -- that he operated a Dianetics clinic in the late 60s.
As was already mentioned in this discussion, the Clarkson and Mackewn book cannot be a source for any connection between Perls and Dianetics -- since it doesn't even contain the word "Dianetics". Again, both Google and Amazon offer the ability to search the complete text:
I am removing the footnote. If you can find any reason to reinstate it besides the fact that it once was part of this article, please speak up.
I am moving the other links so that they do not give the false impression of substantiating the proposition that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.
The link to "Hubbard's Ladder" is the source for the following sentence about Hubbard's methodology providing "raw material" for Perls. It belongs with that sentence.
The link to "Co-counselling as Therapy" says that Perls was "influenced by the ideas and practice of Dianetics". This doesn't establish that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics, but it does indicate that it had his "attention". I'll move the link there.
The link in German probably doesn't belong unless someone is going to quote the relevant passage, translate it, and explain its relevance. As far as I can tell, it says that Perls was audited at some point by Hubbard. Since that assertion doesn't appear in the article, it should probably be removed. For now, I'll group it under "attention" with the previous link.
As for the other material which has been cited in "talk":
Flavius quotes, "A Piece of Blue Sky" where the author says that Perls "defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetics counseling". This indicates that Perls had interest in Dianetics' beginnings. It doesn't establish a lasting influence, an interest in Dianetics as it evolved or that he practiced Dianetics. It doesn't show that he promoted Dianetics.
However -- it's the most clear citation to come to light yet that shows Perls taking a positive (although not uncritical) and public action in regards to Hubbard's work. Thanks, Flavius. How about instead of paraphrasing this or other unspecified sources, simply citing it directly?
The web-available excerpt from "A Doctor's Report...", on the other hand, is more critical than supportive of Dianetics. Consider Winter's conclusion: "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." Or the part quoted by Fischer where Perls accuses Hubbard of mixing "science and fiction" and of "unsubstatiated claims". If parts of that book which do not appear on the web imply something else, by all means cite them with the same precision with which Flavius quoted "A Piece of Blue Sky". The part that we have is, after all, taken from an anti-Scientology site.
I would love to see a citation from Naranjo's book illustrating Perls' relationship to Dianetics.
Thanks for your continuing efforts. Shunpiker 09:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Just out of interest, here are some revealing insights about gestalt therapy (rather than theory) and dianetics
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/roots-1.html
http://home1.gte.net/wsbainbridge/dl/cultgen.htm
One of Hubbard's closest associates in 1950, Dr. J. A. Winter, acted as a bridge between Scientology and the Gestalt cult (Winter 1951, 1962; Perls et al. 1951). Many psychological exercises in both Gestalt Therapy and Scientology train the patient's attention and awareness in abnormal ways. Both use techniques projecting the patient's consciousness into inanimate objects. Both use Freud's technique of getting patients to recall past traumatic experiences, but both demand extreme emotional involvement and made the patient imagine that the experience is happening now in present time. Through Dr. J. A. Winter and other channels, Scientology and Gestalt borrowed from each other.
http://www.edmaupin.com/somatic/somatic_origins.htm Esalen institute came into play quite a lot with Perl's association with prior pseudosciences. Notice its just up the hill from B and G's uni. This was a big meeting point for Satir, Erickson, BnG and others. Richard Feinman was appalled at the lack of scientific thought in these thinkers when he went to visit. This is more or less the hub of the modern new age.
Considering Perls adhered to dianetics in theory and practice, and gestalt therapy itself has dianetics as a major influence, I see no reason to state Perls as an advocate and promoter within the article, with or without citations. Regards HeadleyDown 10:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi again. I think this gives an interesting perspective (food for thought).
http://www.religion.qc.ca/Fiches/fiche028.htm
It shows the connections between Perl's concepts and dianetics, EST (landmark forum) and other such pseudoscientific organizations/events. I think it puts it in to some perspective. Regards HeadleyDown 10:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, It's been almost a week since I posted the original request for verifiable citations demonstrating that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics. That evidence has not been provided.
Headley, I can see that you believe that Dianetics was a "major" influence on Gestalt Therapy, and that Perls practiced and promoted Dianetics. The problem is that neither you nor anyone else has been able to back up those statements with sources.
There are sources that says Dianetics was an influence on Gestalt Therapy, but they list many other influences and do not give Dianetics pre-eminence. To the contrary, the word "Dianetics "doesn't even appear in at least one book on Perls' life and work (Clarkson and Mackewn), nor do the editors of the entries on Fritz Perls and Gestalt Therapy mention it.
There is one source that says that Perls "defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation)". That is as close as anyone has come to sourcing the assertion that Perls "promoted" Dianetics. If you think it's relevant, you could use that quote. But it's not equivalent to say that he promoted Dianetics, or was a "proponent".
No one has been able to come up with any source for the assertion that Perls practiced Dianetics. Someone -- I think it was Camridge, thanks -- at least edited down the statement from its original form, where it said that Perls operated a Dianetics clinic in the late 60s.
I'm going to give this another day. After that, and in the absence of any emerging evidence, I'm going to feel free to remove the statements that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.
Yours, Shunpiker 19:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. I added criticism of energy as promoted in some NLP texts. Physics does not recognize energy as moving or existing in the positive/negative states that are commonly stated in NLP texts. This is a common new age myth and can be further clarified in the article. It may also be related to other pseudosciences such as energy therapies, EMDR, and other such pseudos. I also noticed there is another common misconception in NLP that considers energy as something that exists out of the body in a kind of aura-chi-directable entity. As far as it has been measured, no energy exists past the skin of the body. I think this also needs a mention somewhere. Camridge 08:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I have expanded the subsection 'Atheoretical Pretence'. In view of Grinder's grandiose amateur philosophising and the NLP mantra about theory that extends right back to the early literature I have brought some results from epistemology and philosophy of science to bear on the matter. Bandler and Grinder have been using Fictionlism (a type of Instrumentalism, which is in turn a type of Antirealism) as an evasive tactic since NLPs inception. B&G make explicit appeals to Fictionalism in their liberal quotations from Vaihinger and in there numerous paraphrasings of Fictionalist doctrine. Hence, the philosophical critiques of Fictionalism (and Instrumentalism) are entirely relevant. For those of you with some understanding of epistemology or an interest in the subject this will hopefully be informative. flavius 14:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, with respect, I don't think anyone here has overlooked that point. The linguistic and clinical hypnosis view both state that the use of mathematical proof is completely inappropriate for explaining NLP. It does' however emphasize the pseudoscientific basis of VAKOG within NLP. That can be emphasized in the article with brief explanation. So, mathematical proofs can be mentioned within the pseudoscience section, and as further criticism for the pseudoscientific nature of NLP. In fact, this may even allow for further connection with other pseudoscientific subjects such as energy therapy. Camridge 05:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
PS. I might add that this kind of mathematical "proof" does also put NLP on a par with astrology and numerology, plus other elements of magic such as in Rosicrucian pseudoscience that also makes use of geometrical and mathematical associations of early astronomy. Camridge 05:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. You have been working against NPOV with a breathtaking impertinence:o
Now Comaze, you are not being completely honest there are you! I mean, there is something about those months of umpteen criticism deletes a day and even your recent whitewash, that may give the impression you don't really give a toss about wikipeida policy. Or am I just imagining NLP article history and your stated commitment to promoting an exclusively Bandler Grinder viewpoint throughout the article? That commitment is still in evidence today. DaveRight 04:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, I must remind you that your so called qualifications will only establish your purpose to that of antiNPOV. The evidence is clear from the majority of your edits that you are unwilling to balance and only want to remove clarifying facts. Here is a solution: Admit that NLP is postmodern antiscience and stop trying to narrow the views to that of the most obscurantist.
Camridge
06:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Fellas, ladies, and children of all ages, please calm down! I don't want to lock this page, but if I'm given no choice, I will, without hesistation. I emplore you all to be CIVIL, and refrain from using personal attacks (that means all of you...). In all honesty, some editors are acting childish, and if need be, an RfC can and will be filed, so please just relax and stay cool. Might a wikibreak help anyone? I promise to keep close watch over this thing. - Mys e kurity( have you seen this?) 04:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Myusekurity. No worries, the only person asking for a locked page is Comaze and thats because nobody allows him to cut facts any more. I noticed that people are being a lot more civil since the page is divided more clearly, and any silliness seems to be more humour than anything else. People have made efforts to cut the size of the page, and when people such as Comaze stop pushing to delete important facts, then they can be reduced (the full quotes will be less necessary, and extra supporting evidence will be unnecessary also). Anyway, the page seems to be in better order with better explanations, and certainly my goal is to get the article to below 50kb fairly soon. Cheers Camridge 04:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I think an RfC could be helpful in soliciting the input of people with more diverse interests -- not least of all, those who are disinterested in this topic. Until there is a quorum of editors contributing to the article who are not identified with the either the pro- or anti-NLP positions, I wouldn't expect improvement in the quality of the article or the civility of the discussion around it. Thanks, Shunpiker 05:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
A good test for a neutral editor would be that someone would not be able idenitify from your writing if you are writing for or against a topic. So really, every edit should contain views from all sides. I also want to implement Wikipedia:Footnotes in this article so that other editors can easily check facts. -- Comaze 05:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh change the record Headley you ----------- Krishsingh1066 14:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes. This definitely needs to go to RfC. I know nothing of NLP, but I do know there seems to be a great deal of animosity between users. I feel, whatever your beliefs, labling something a "pseudo-science" is not NPOV, and I will remove that. What would be acceptable, is to state that some consider it to be a pseduo-science, and list quotes and such that support that, as well as others that refute the pseudo-science claim, thus making it NPOV. I honestly think this needs to go to RfC, and if this warring/incivility continues, I will not hesitate to protect the page and block users. Those here are doubly reminded that Sockpuppetry and Meatpuppetry are grounds for immediate blocking, and forbidden from voting and discussion. Any sock or meatpuppet caught will be blocked on sight. - Mys e kurity( have you seen this?) 05:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Flavius. Actually I am Krish (Krishsingh1066@yahoo.com) not HeadleyDown. The material on my site was given to me by another skeptic and I thought it so good I posted it up. Judging by the advances here I have some changes to make:) Someone else is impersonating me, and it looks like someone anti-HeadleyDown. I've been watching this article for a while though I don't have an account. I think its fairly clear that NLP proponents are trying their damnedest to remove criticism. How do you remain so tolerant? I'd be breaking monitors by now! Sincerely 203.198.23.99 01:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Flavius. Yes Comaze posted the label on my page and I am waiting for him to remove it. I think he has posted at least 9 such labels on other nonpromoter's pages. He has always accused without foundation and he continues to do it as you probably have noticed on your own page. He wants you to look like the miscreant, when all you have done is provide clear explanations - lots of work, and all he does is waste people's time. The best thing to do is ignore him. He tries to act all official but in fact he has committed months of flagrant antiNPOV activities. Most of his focus is on nuisance now though. Just try to shrug it off. Bookmain 05:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
While researching for my reply to flavius, I added a whole bunch of citations to the page. While I was doing this I noticed that there is a lack of citations from NLP in the criticism section. It seems that there is a general lack of connection of the criticism to specific aspect of NLP. The "Atheoretic" section in criticism is an excellent counter-example to this. This is the sort of quality I'd like to see throughout the entire document. Wherever possible I have used the earliest references to each fact. Please feel free to check them and provide earlier or more reputable/verifiable/authoratative references when you can find them. -- Comaze 11:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Jolly good show Comaze. Its nice to see you have suddenly stopped deleting facts after all. I wonder how long you can keep this up! DaveRight 03:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Listen Comaze, there is no way you are going to get away without someone pointing out your uncooperative behaviour. You have demanded so much, but you continue to deny the facts. These are not personal attacks. Truly the only personal attacks are the ones made by the promoters you work with towards nonpromotional editors, and I will repeat what the mediator VoiceOfAll has stated about you; "YOUR BEHAVIOUR IS TEDIOUS AND UNPRODUCTIVE". Camridge 03:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, look, judging by your history, I believe you are never going to cooperate. So whenever you ask tedious or uncooperative questions I will simply point out what you are doing for the sake of other editors who may be under the false impression that you are trying to do something constructive. Other people are carefully pointing out what you are trying to do, and that is a constructive thing to do, because it will lead to a better understanding of your nuisance. These pointers are not attacks, but they show exactly where the hazards are on this discussion article in order to facilitate constant forward movement. ----- I noticed you have just posted something irelevant on the article about someone in the 70s saying NLP is worthy. That is completely out of date and irrelevant to the opening, so I will remove it.
Camridge
04:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi VoiceOFAll. I've been lurking for ages, even before HeadleyDown turned up. I started writing a report on NLP for my Master degree, and got swept up with the discussion. Why? Do you want to post a meatpuppet label on my personal page together with Comaze's many unreasonable objections? Camridge 04:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
There has been great speculation as to whether or not two or three users are alike or the same. While writing styles are very similar, I do not believe we are dealing with sockpuppets, but only meatpuppets (See their respective pages). What we mostly have here are users pushing their POV and getting friends involved, so nothing illegal, just not very nice. I honestly think this could use an RfC, as this page just seems to be serving as a smack-talking battlegroun. - Mys e kurity( have you seen this?) 02:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I concur. The NLPpromoters are all self admittedly registered or trained NLPers. They all have an agenda to delete facts about NLP. Not just criticisms, but facts about NLP's occult/new aga/pop psychology/pseudoscience characteristics. Considering they are all part of the same small circle of pseudoscientists, I would say they most definitely fit the bill for meatpuppetry. Furthermore, they all ganged up to vote for mediation (though they were completely unco-operative during mediation) and they all ganged up for arbitration (in order to remove non-promoters). If wikipedia is to be consistent in this matter, they should be very wary in the face of such persistent pressure for restriction and censorship from such cults.
Bookmain
05:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. NLP uses rituals rather than techniques. Evidence:
Ritual A stylised sequence of activity designed to anchor and elicit a particular state or series of states in the participants, with reference to the leader's beliefs and values. Eg the use of coloured pens, mind mapping and slow music to elicit optimal learning states is a ritual expression of the pattern of learning in all three main representational systems.
here is an excerpt from NLP the new technology of achievement about Robert Dilts
Robert draws them out. He helps them divide their disappointments from their dreams and rekindle what first brought them together. He then assists them in literally separating themselves from old co-dependent patterns and gaining a new sense of wholeness in and for themselves. Finally, he invites them to participate in a healing ritual in which they bring the fullness and you stay there for a long time, perhaps for hours. And that you have your own little rituals (environmental and internal anchors) that can put you back into that state at the snap of a finger. Many 204
There was a good deal of literature posted in the archives on the new age nature of NLP. I cannot be bothered to dig it up just to have Comaze deny it, but it basically said that all the NLP principles are related to the new age concepts, and NLP is marketed under the new age label. NLP IS NEW AGE!
NLP is a quasi-spiritual method as explained by a body of medical practitioners : http://www.canoe.ca/AltmedDictionary/glossary.html
It is completely NPOV acceptable to call NLP new age, ritualistic, and quasi-spiritual. In addition to this, it is totally correct to call it pseudo-scientific with or without citations. The only reason to have citations is to stop overzealous deleters from deleting it. Camridge 04:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Camridge's take on NLPs proper classification. NLP isn't a science and it isn't based on science. NLP isn't an art in that it neither produces aesthetic works (eg. sculpture) nor is it a skill based on a mixture of knowledge (assumptions and falsities don't comprise knowledge) and experience (eg. cookery). It isn't a craft (eg. carpentry) because it doesn't involve manual dexterity. It can't be conceived of as a skill because it doesn't work (the evidence tells us this). If someone claimed that he could fly by flapping his arms we wouldn't deem that person as posessing the skill to fly. It can't be classified as a technology because by definition technology is applied science, it is the application of science to the resolution of practical problems. Since NLP is not based on science it can't be a technology. Is it an epistemology? This question implies an unconventional understanding of the word epistemology. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy that is concerned with the scope, limits, nature and basis of human knowledge. Saying "an epistemology" implies that there are a multitude of epistemologies. There are a multitude of epistemological theories (eg. Realism, Constructivism, Instrumentalism, Idealism, Representationalism) but there is only one epistemology, i.e. the branch of philosophy. So NLP can't be "an epistemology" in the same sense that something can't be "an archeology" (when we say "an archeology of Egypt" we are not referring to some special species of Egyptian archeology we are referring to archeological knowledge pertaining to Egypt). Is there an epistemological theory embedded within NLP? Yes, certainly (see my earlier discussion on this) but this is unremarkable. There is an epistemological theory embedded even in everyday experience (eg. the inductive logic we employ when we say "lemons are sour"). Saying "NLP is an epistemology" is a linguistic trick that enables NLPers to smuggle in specific epistemological theory whilst maintaining the pretence that they "don't do theory" and simultaneously avoiding the need for justification of the details of those specific epistemological theories. Within specific sciences and branches of technology the word "model" has a well-defined meaning even though usage of the term may vary between various disciplines (eg. a structural engineers notion of a model is different from a physicists). Outside of these technical contexts the term model is ambiguous. What exctly does it mean to say that "NLP is a model"? NLP is not predictive. NLP is not concerned with explanation. NLP is not a simulation. NLP does not engage in hypothesis testing (such that it yields limited gerneralisations en route to producing laws). All of the standard understandings of "model" have been exhausted. Hence NLP can't be described as a model. By a process of elimination the only domain of human experience that we have left is religiosity. Tye (1994) argues that NLP produces a "psycho shaman effect" (p.4) which is described as a combination of "cognitive dissonance, placebo effect, and therapist charisma" (p.5). Thus the NLP practitioner/therapist is like a shaman. The aspects of religiosity within NLP extend further than this. It is essentially faith based, tenets are validated in the same way as many religions, namely, with reference solely to subjective experience. NLP promotes the notion of unlimited personal possibility and potential: all that separates me from Albert Einstein (a figure often mentioned but usually misunderstood in NLP literature and seminars) is that we have different "strategies" i.e. sequences of sensory based represnetations. NLP also promotes the idea that all behavior is learnt (this notion is incidentally inconsistent with Chomskyan linguistics). Taken together these two premises form a conception of "human nature" -- this too is a facet of religiosity. The ethical system of the quasi-religion is supplied by the notion of ecology. The techniques of NLP -- having being demonstrated to have no real effect -- comprise ritual and ceremony. Deification is distributed between the "all powerfull unconscious" (the source of all power) and the upper echelons of the training industry pyramid (who as shamans know the secrets of the unconscious). The demons of NLP are suggestions, linguistic ambiguities and embedded commands that threaten to enter our unconscious mind and manifest some harmful reality (see [ [11]]). NLP supplies the incantations and rituals necessary to repel or exorcise these demons. NLP defines sinful behavior: Meta-Model violations or failure to honour the presuppositions attracts censure. The most dramatic ritual is of course the Fast Phobia Cure, this is NLPs equivalent of Christian charismatic healing or perhaps an exorcism. flavius 17:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This page has evolved quite a bit. What things would people still like to see fixed? Voice of All T| @| ESP 05:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks VoiceOfAll. I am quite happy to make clearer, more concise and more organized. Camridge 05:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I put that we...
Actually there could also be more coverage of new age/occult aspects of NLP. Those themes are present throughout NLP literature. So far all we have had is deletions and denials from promoters, despite their presence throughout literature and within the very presuppositions of NLP. It would clarify things immensely especially as NLP is moving more towards those aspects as mainstream therapy shuns it all the more. Camridge 07:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I've moved the criticism of NLP applications to the corresponding application. The next thing I'd like to do is create a section call Ethics or Ecology and move the "unethical use" to a subsection under that. PS. the change was marked as minor, but I don't know if it was minor. Please let me know if there are any objections to this. -- Comaze 00:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the character of the recent spate of edits. The NPOV policy in connection with psuedoscience states that, "If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." The article is losing this balance as the majority (scientific) view is being diluted with the minority view. There is no substantial division of opinion amongst linguists, neurologists, social psychologists, cognitive psychologists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists and philosophers. The majority view within each of these professions is that NLP is pseudoscientific, quasi-religious, cultic, ineffective, without empirical evidence, fraudulent, quackery, obscurantist, theoretically and methodologically flawed, obscurantist and akin to shamanism. This view is not being reflected in the overall balance of the article. The opening description of NLP should reflect the majority (scientific) view -- it doesn't. It should be edited to read "NLP is an agglomeration of disparate principles, techniques and speculations promoted as a means of studying subjective experience, modifying behavior and codifying and reproducing human 'excellence'. NLP is New Age and quasi-religious, incorporating a faith in unlimited human potential, a commitment to empowerment, an antirealist epistemology and a revolutionary pretence". Or words to that effect and of course appropriately cited. This would reflect the majority view. flavius 08:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yus Flafius. Other dictionary definitions include; NLP is a vaguely defined fringe therapy that promotes 10 minute phobia cures; a quasi-spiritual change treatment that deals with past lives; a pseudoscientific self help development in the same mould as dianetics and est. Whenever definitions use 'the study of structure of....' the always say NLP CLAIMS to be. Because the pretence to being a "study" is an outrageous claim, as is the claim to being "THE" study, and of "the STRUCTURE of subjective experience". Whatever structure exists in subjective experience, NLPers have completely missed it to the point that they have never studied it. Your definition above is perfectly clarifying and it most definitely is the scientific explanation of things. The article will get there, especially when clearer explanation is presented in the article. Cheers DaveRight 02:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Yay VoA. It is indeed a good thing, and there is much rejoicing in this coincidentally merry time of year. I have noticed there is a great deal more explaining to do in science terms, and judging by the summarizing power of editors here, I am sure it can all be done within reasonable file size. Cheers DaveRight 03:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I noticed a couple of bits of sanitization of NLP again. Comaze and another proNLP editor stated that NLP was not used in the same way as Dianetics and that NLP is not used in the field. There is also the convenient changing of the title from engrams (even though engrams are all over the passage) to the memory trace. Lets just take a good look at NLP and start pasting more of the commonly new age concepts back in there without trying to whitewash. It may be objectionable to NLPers who deny that their subject is flakey but it is a fact after all. Camridge 08:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Statement ignored. Brevity and relevance is priority. Camridge 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I've been involved in NLP since 1992, and have trained with both co-founders of the field. I've also interacted with a wide range of the biggest names in the field, and I found little in this entire article which bears any resemblance to what a dictionary definition of what NLP is. There is an entire encyclopedia of NLP written by Robert Dilts, who is perhaps the least controversial figure among the different sides within NLP. It's located here [20]. Whole sections of this article cover things I've never even heard discussed in connection to NLP including the cult activities, etc. As someone who's read 80% of the primary scientific research on NLP, the jury is still out, and the research is relatively thin. Only a few of the main topics have been given any experimental study, and even in the case of eye-accessing cues, which most of the research has been devoted to, some studies say it works, and some don't, and in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory. This article shouldn't be pro-Bander or pro-Grinder, or pro-NLP, or pro-the critics of NLP. It should simply be a factually accurate article which isn't organized for the purpose of bias, and this I'm afraid sadly is.
Hi anonymous. It has been said that NLPers are generally unable to countenance scientific reviews of NLP because they are negative overall. The more recent reviews show that the supporting studies are fatally flawed, and the studies showing NLP is wrong or ineffective are rigorous, well done, and published to a higher standard. Mind myths are quite elusive things, and it is so easy to swallow pleasant concepts of empowerment, but quite hard to face reality sometimes. I understand you are probably up against some very hard facts. Thats life, and if you just keep moving forward you can lose the cumbersome baggage quite easily. There are good rigorous methods and research in clinical psychology, and some very well supported methods such as CBT. Best go and seek out the golden nuggets of fact and lose the NLP dross. You sound well intentioned to me. Best regards
Camridge
03:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. This is not a personal attack, it is advice for reduction of conflict in order the article be further improved. I must point out that Comaze is deliberately stiring up trouble. He has stopped posting sockpuppet labels on editor's pages (though he refuses to remove them), but his strategy now is to find any excuse to accuse editors of making personal attacks on him and makes multiple complaints on multiple personal pages. Comaze has just tried to mix criticism with the above NLP section even though the criticisms were seperated from the NLP claims section in order to reduce conflict. Therefore, Comaze's agenda is to create conflict through antagonism and vexatious litigation. Solution: Remove his objections from your personal pages, ignore his persistent nagging, revert his conflict stiring actions, and just stay cool. Cheers DaveRight 02:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Its good advice Dave. Comaze is as persistently damaging as anyone could be to any editor's state of mind. Lets all just be reasonable, chill out and get on with research/editing. Camridge 03:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This comment from Camridge, "Comaze is as persistently damaging [...] to any editor's state of mind." is the type of comment against me that I have subjected to by (HeadleyDown, AliceDeGrey, JPLogan, DaveRight, D.Right, and group) for months. I posted requests on their talk pages to stop only to be ignored. I'm surpirsed that this continues even after the request for arbitration was accepted. I feel that this group of editors are trying to "own" the article and talk page. I really want this to work so I'm still open to negotiation. Please contact me by private message if you want to discuss privately. -- Comaze 00:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Dave Right,
Please justify your reversion ([ [21]] to my edit to the article, re: Perls and Dianetics.
In the week since I proposed that edit, no one came forth with a verifiable source for the assertion that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.
No one objected when I said I was going forward with the edit, and now that you have reverted it, you have left an insufficent explanation: "the Perls facts are well substantiated both here and on the discussion page". No, they have not been -- so you need to explain yourself.
I understand that you and some of the other editors believe that Dianetics and Perls' work shares any number of characteristics. That may be true. But you can't infer that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics on the basis of that similarity.
It's one thing to play fast and loose with impersonal facts, but its another thing altogether when by doing so, you may be libeling someone. Consider the controversy over John Siegenthaler if you need further evidence of how this can hurt Wikipedia.
I won't be bullied out of a simple correction of fact. Prove that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics, and I'll be happy as -- well -- a clam. Otherwise, let someone who you might not agree with edit the page for once.
Just FYI: I don't have any stake in Perls. It's just that I never heard of him promoting or practicing Dianetics before I came to upon this article and this discussion. And to this day, I still haven't seen that case made anywhere else.
Sincerely, Shunpiker 06:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge,
This isn't about whether *you* see no problem in making arbitrary statements. Wikipedia isn't about what you think or what I think. Your experiences and my experience constitute original research, and Wikipedia forbids that.
Asking the authors of a controversial statement to provide verifiable sources is not censorship. It's Wikipedia's Verifiability policy.
No verifiable source has been produced to demonstrate that Perls 1) promoted or 2) practiced Dianetics. It's not enough to find sources that say that Gestalt Therapy is like Dianetics or that Fritz Perls gave L. Ron Hubbard long back massages in the sauna at Esalen. If you're going to put forward the statement that Perls promoted and practiced Dianetics, you need sources that say just that.
Don't you think it's funny that Wikipedia is the only place on the Internet where these assertions are being made? Don't you think it's funny that even on Wikipedia, they don't appear in the Perls article? Nor in the Dianetics article.
Sincerely, Shunpiker 09:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It may be nitpicking, but shouldn't the assumed roots of Gestalt Therapy be in the appropriate article Gestalt Therapy, instead of ths one? After all, even if we assumed your source to be valid it would be only a derived (via Perls) influence on NLP. Blauregen 09:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Listen guys, NLP developers make the claim to Perls, and there is a reason for that. If you want to remove the fact that he promoted dianetics, I think you are rather removing the background influences of NLP. There are far more links about Perls and NLP and dianetics/Hubbard also. Perhaps I should start putting those in to emphasize the fact! Did you even bother to check the biographies and Gestalt therapy books that state Perls promoted and practiced dianetics? Judging by your pressure towards censorship, it looks like you don't even want to. NLP is so confusing, any explanatory facts such as background can only be helpful. If you never read the fact that Perls was a dianetics fan, then I suggest you have been reading selectively to look for support for your belief in NLP. The fact is clear that Perls supported dianetics. If you want to rephrase it, go ahead. But to me it looks like you just want to remove the fact of the face of the article. Another way to go would be to look at the direct comparison between dianetics and NLP. The list is amazing: Pseudoscientific, Jargon ridden, Korzybski, command hypnotics, general semantics, reluctance to test, trauma removal, unconsciousness misconceptions and engrams, links with EST/Landmark forum, cultlike, faddy and applied to therapy, new age, occult connections, human potential movement, past lives therapy, claims to magic, and many more.
Camridge
10:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
No worries Camridge. They just want it completely deleted. Reversion is perfectly acceptable considering the sources. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the background to NLP and the new age. Some of your above explanations could be turned into a line or two for the article and all within NPOV policey regs. Cheers DaveRight 02:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Not really. While i appreciate your efforts to caution the public about the effectiveness of NLP and most other speech therapies, the fact that Hubbard and Perls may have exchanged ideas, or that Perls may have tested Hubbards ideas simply bears no relevance for an article on the subject of NLP. Even if Perls gestalt therapy would have been strongly influenced by dianetics, it would be something that belongs into the gestalt therapy article, not into the NLP article. Similar, the notion that Hubbard was influenced by Crowleys writings would belong into the dianetics article, not the gestalt therapy article. Further on the NLP founders claim to have 'modeled' the method of Perls communication to his clients, not the theoretical background of gestalt therapy. It is clear that at least Bandler was influenced by it though, given he ran his own gestalt therapy group, however he himself was as far as i know never associated to any practice of dianetics. Nor was Grinder. As for a direct and comprehensive comparision of NLP to dianetics: If you provided one i must have overlooked it. Could you please provide it again? Blauregen 09:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Blauregen. The effort is towards clarification rather than warning. Education is an important aspect of Wikipedia. NLP is classed together with other pseudosciences, especially that of Dianetics. When writing about the background influences of NLP, one must research thoroughly. Its no good looking through NLP books because they will claim Einstein, Alan Turing, Chomsky, Bateson and anyone else who sounds like a great authority figure. And any similarities between NLP theory and those great minds is entirely erroneous and spurious according to the critical and scientific literature. NLP was dreamt up around Esalen institute at the begining of the new new age (when new age became popular). This is the height of the human potential movement and was influenced strongly by Hubbard. It was also a time when people were making a lot of money out of cults. EST, Scientology and so on all made people very rich, and of course, plenty of other pseudo - therapies were cashing in. So BnG put together a set of very inticing candies and easy to swallow pseudoscientific notions, with a belief system and pseudoterminology structure taken straight from Hubbard. Chronologically, philosophically, anthropologically, socially, NLP and dianetics/scientology are inextricably linked. Perls is but one strong link, who followed Hubbard in practice and in principle. Perls was disagreable, deliberately strange, followed (claimed to follow) eastern philosophies such as Buddhism and Zen, practiced dianetics, promoted dianetics, and used all the same pseudoscientific notions of subconscious programming that Hubbard used. I'm sure we only need a line or two to explain this. It is an accurate placing of NLP within 20th century pseudoscientific new age/human potential movement and cult following. It explains to some extent why NLP is so pseudoscientific. Camridge 10:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Take a look at the literature. The use of the engram is abundant within NLP, as you can see by following the references. It is intellectually completely correct to place facts that have been verified, even under mediation as is the case here. In addition, NLP is a new age development that has drawn deeply from the pseudoscience of dianetics as so much of the human potential industry has.
Enneagram is also used within NLP, but that is a different matter. Enneagram is a kind of geometrical pseudoscience similar to biorhythms and astrology. It can be mentioned, but on different sections. Your understanding of the subject is flawed, and I suggest you look further into the development of new age developments of the 60s and 70s. Camridge 07:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your denial borders on delusion. We have links to encyclopedias, NLP proponents, promoters, and NLP authors. Dilts, Bandler, Grinder all use the VAK circuit in the context of the subconscious and the brain. Just like Hubbard. Your objection is as unreasonable as always. Camridge 10:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
PS, concerning Akulkis's rather obtuse edits, I think we can also add some information about enneagrams in the pseudoscience or dubious applications section. Bookmain 09:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Comaze, there are whole books written about NLP and enneagrams. Look them up. Camridge 10:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze there are loads of books on NLP enneagrams [22]. And as you already know, engrams are intrinsic to NLP as stated by Drenth, Levelt, Singleton, Baeart and many others. The only reason you deny now, is because you have another fanatic to support your erroneous thinking. Your bias has indeed been very much noted. DaveRight 01:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
and their opinion was that (I wasn't pursuing a EE degree, nor have I ever claimed such), that I should study Thermo, and that they would not approve my plan of study unless I could provide a valid reason for excluding it. So, as much as I hated the class, and the reasons for it, I took it. And, it seems, it might end up being the most important engineering course (out of approx 80 cr. hours of engineering courses). Now, enough of this nonsense about my education, and your IGNORANT BULLSHIT LIES about the lack of same.
how about you discuss THE SUBJECT OF THE PAGE... Either that, or you put your credentials on the table, and we can discuss those... are you up for that? For example, let's start with YOUR REAL NAME. Akulkis 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
AKulkis. There are many NLPers that use the term engram and Sinclair is only one of them, and all NLPers use the concept. Look up engram in a good neuroscience book. You will notice that NLPers use the concept throughout the literature. Drenth is a professor of psychology and organizational studies. He is an expert on the subject and he is a scientist. His view carries a great deal of weight. NLP is fringe, and science is not. Science gets the weight in wikipedia, especially over pseudoscience. DaveRight 04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, stop with the backtracking. Your attempt to constantly vex editors by making multiple unreasobable requests is quite clearly a nuisance.
Camridge
02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Actually I think we could explain a little, as you were not part of the mediated discussion on engrams beforehand. Engrams are central to NLP. Realise that wikipedia uses science as a priority over pseudoscience. Engram is the most accurate term to describe what NLPers are talking about whenever they mention the "neuro" of NLP. It involves the neural paths of the senses, and of the engram traces in neurology. But that is just the explanation aspect. The fact is, this is corroborated by the use of the engram term by NLP theorists for example, Sinclair, and Hollander. There are not many self admitting theorists in NLP, but those who do talk neurology theory refer to engrams directly according to book refs, article refs, and links. Again, as science is priority and adds a great deal of clarity here, it can only be a benefit to the article. Google searches come up with the term engram and NLP, in all european languages. I suggest you use Google in a more world/encyclopedic way. I understand you are an NLP fan and proponents tend to stick to their own view within the deliberately confusing field of NLP. Wikipedia must take into account all views, but with science over pseudoscience. This is even more important with the obscurantist subject of NLP. The article is moving forward well, becoming more concise and clear, and it is possible to add further facts within reason. But those must be verified facts (adding your own conjecture over scientists confusing engram with enneagram is not a fact, it is just your point of view). Camridge 02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge, look, "engrams" comes with a LOT of negative-"guilt-by-association"-baggage. If you want to write about the term "engrams", then feel free to do so in the APPROPRIATE place...which would be an entry on Dianetics. NOBODY in the NLP community uses the term engram, so what gives YOU the right to import terminology which has not other purpose than to misinform, confuse, and propagandize the reader?
that which doesn't support their own, so as to maintain their quasi-religious belief in Rolfism, Jungism, or whatever other sort of psychobabble-ism they bought into before they were really exposed to ANY data or evidence on which to make such a decision). -- More of Aaron's bluster.
from some LINGUISTS immediately invokes the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, plus the widespread embarassment that results when people outside of the field are producing more significant results than those who have been in it for a lifetime. A friend of mine, Dan Judd, was studying for his PhD in CS at Michigan State University, and in a class on Genetic Algorithms, solved several problems which both the professor, and the text books authors claimed were difficult, and so-far unsolved problems. For solving these problems...was he held in high regard?? HELL NO. He wasn't in the artificial intelligence (AI) community, and for solving one of their problems, which they had failed to solve, they treated him with disdain -- HOW DARE YOU upstage us in our own field of endeavor?!?!!?" Something VERY similar is at work with regards to NLP and the mainstream psych professions.
Comaze, you are placing pseudoscience above science again. Science takes priority. Neuroscience does not include TOTE and TOTE is not used to explain nerve circuits. TOTE etc can briefly be included in the modeling section. Camridge 05:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
AKulkis. You are using the erroneous objection that only Bandler/Grinder/Dilts and other developers are the only primary sources allowable. Primary source does not mean NLP developer, it means any literature that is not second hand opinion. Also, your view of fringe has much to be desired. NLPers views are fringe at best, and your opinion is not relevant to the article. NLP is a deliberately confusing pseudoscientific subject that needs science in order to clarify it. Your attacks and objections are relevant to discussion, and so far they have supported the fact that NLP is a cult. You offer nothing but restricted views and pseudoscientific excuses.
DaveRight
04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis and Comaze. Refer to our mediator, VoiceOFAll's comment that this has been resolved through mediation several times over. You may support the cult of NLP but you will never be able to censor verified fact. Camridge 07:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Please cease and desist from your surreptitious edits.
The addition of your take on the philsopsophy of science to the 'Atheoretical Pretence' section was embarassing. The subsection already stated that science routinely offers laws and models in the absence of explanatory theory and the classical example of Newton's Law was offered. Did you miss this before you added your contribution? You missed the central point of the subsection. Theoretical physicists don't engage in free speculation, their models are evaluated with respect to predictive capacity and/or explanatory capacity. A theoretical physicists models are empirically tested and/or tested to determine if they yield more or better explanations. This is a basic tenet of Fictionalist epistemology. NLP models are neither subject to empirical test and they aren't offered as possessing superior explanatory power over existing models. There is no parallel between the free speculation engaged in by Bandler and Grinder and the activitites of theoretical physicist. Mentioning Feynman is more NLPesque sophistry as per mentioning Einstein, Tesla etc. That sort of garabge won't fool anyone here. It does nothing for the NLP case. If you have a genuine concern about this matter read-on, else note that I reverted your edits because they were junk (detailed explanation follows).
The structure of the argument presented in 'Atheoretical Pretence' is not merely to assert that fictionalism is false. Rather, NLPs fidelity to fictionalism is questioned and the absence of a defence of fictionalism prior to its use is noted. Most physical scientists are epistemologically classified as "Scientific Realists", even theoretical physicists. Fictionalism is not a widespread epistemological basis of method of any established discipline even economics where it had an influential advocate in Milton Friedman. NLP is predicated on fictionalism -- nay a bastardised version of the theory. Even according to Vaihinger (which B&G quote from liberally) the fruits of any 'As If' based inquiry are to be subjected to empirical test. NLP is ostensibly concerned with "what works", hence its fictionalist inquiry must be justified with emprical testing of its findings else its findings are not the product of method but of free speculation. When B&G proposed the "Fast Phobia Cure" which followed a series of "As If" proposals concerning neurology, language, cognition etc. we are nevertheless left with a proposed therapeutic technique that can and should be tested as per other psyhcotherapies. We must test the proposed technique to determine if it is more effective than placebo, and we have established means of undertaking such tests. A fictionalist form of inquiry does not alter the universe such that nonspecific factors in psychotherapy cease to exist or be relevant. NLP undertakes no rigorous empirical test of the claims derived from 'As If' based inquiry. Hence, it pays lip-service only to fictionalism. Economists and theoretical physicists with fictionalist leanings subject their models to stringent testing. Fictionalist economists require predictive power. Theoretical physicists require either predictive power and/or explanatory power. Both the fictionalist economist and physicist employ rigorous empirical tests that are designed to ensure that their results are not due to chance, artifacts of the method of inquiry or other extraneous factors. The NLPer exercises no such discipline. Nonspecific factors in therapuetic intervention are conveniently ignored, the peculiar natural history of specific mental illness is ignored, follow-up is ignored, pre-therapeutic disease states are not objectively determined and neither are therapeutic outcomes. There is only ritual followed by subjective report of well-being.
Thus there is no parallel -- absolutely none -- between the method of inquiry prescribed by some theoretical physicists and the activities of B&G that produced NLP. On this basis I have deleted your edits. flavius 02:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
AKulkis. NLP developers make wild claims and hypothesese. These are tested and turn out to be false according to independent scientific empiricism. Yet NLPers still claim that they work. NLP is a pseudoscience. Your confusion and claim to engineering are both pseudoscientific ploys to attach importance to NLP nonsense. NLP is pseudo in theory (yes they do theorize and hypothesize, though they claim they don't), it is ineffective according to tests, and it is pseudo in excuses. Your excuses are those of a committed pseudoscientist. DaveRight 04:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. The only empirical evidence we have is that the US army ditched NLP as a concept many years ago (in the 80s). The article already shows that the director of that research states that lots of evidence shows that it does not work. We work with facts here, not the hearsay of pseudoscientists. Camridge 09:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
And then describing the different points of view on that topic. Let's discuss the different views from scientists, linguists, NLP developers, etc. I offered a comprimise -- I'll ask again -- is there any objection to renaming the engram section to "neuro in neuro-linguistic programming" and then providing a description of all the major views? I've added dubious tags to the engram section. -- Comaze 02:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
To clarify, Comaze, I will revert to the original name - engrams. Neuro is best covered elsewhere (pseudoscience section especially). Camridge 06:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
...because you have an axe to grind. Enough said.
Well the only person calling it dubious is you, Comaze. It has been verified already according to mediation. Your addition of dubious tags is only ever in accordance with your nasty little agenda to narrow views to bandler and grinder, and to slow down progress towards clarification. I suggest that the automatic removal of your nonsense is the most productive way forward. DaveRight 03:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, please refer to the prior mediation that finished with VoiceOfAll stating that engrams must stay in the article. Evidence for engrams is abundant. You have persistently advocated the removal of verified fact, and you yourself have removed it on multiple occasions regardless of mediation or citation. Everybody realizes exactly how antagonistic, unproductive, tedious, and anti-NPOV policy your activities are. It is clear that your agenda is one of a narrow minded NLP zealot, and your activities go against multiple-view neutrally oriented clarification. You have constantly sought to cloud issues and present the narrowest and most whitewashed version of NLP available. Wikipedia is not a whitewash machine. It is here to clarify and elucidate. Solution: you are to be ignored. DaveRight 04:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, you are the one making persistent and unreasonable objections;
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that a reasonable person will believe that you will not remove facts after arbitration. NO promise you make can ever be trusted. Your background and history has created a severe lack of trust. Your agenda has always been to tediously vex progress on this article. YOU have created your own ridiculous situation through unreasonable demands and actions. In the interests of progress - you are most certainly only here to be ignored. Camridge 05:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge, demanding citations when you and your cohorts make ludicrous claims like your NLP<-->engrams<-->Dianetics connections is not demanding EXCESS citations...seeing how you have yet to provide even ONE citation that holds up under scrutiny by neutral 3rd parties, your claim that we are demanding "excessive" anything is utterly ludicrous. I suggest you leave your little "flat-earth" society and get a clue. 12:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, that makes no difference to me. Your tedious assertion is ignored. Camridge 05:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The wording I inserted was "which some NLP practitioners..." with respect to engrams. enneagram is clearly used way more and the article must reflect that. Engrams are mentioned by two pretty serious authors, but it is likely that that is just their take on NLP. NLP is pretty variant, unorganized, and often unverified, so author's adding in their own concepts is no surprise. As long as engrams aren't overmentioned or made out to be the majority view, then its fine for the article.
I am currently working on a new Magic:The Gathering Wiki, pushing semi-protection, and trying to close AFDs and reverted vandals, so I don't have time for this same issue to re-hash for a forth time. Lets move on. Voice of All T| @| ESP 05:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Good grief, no wonder this article is in trouble when it's being edited by someone so ignorant of the subject that they apparently don't know the difference between "enneagram" and "engram" - which are essentially unrelated, of course. Maybe VOAL should tell us what background knowledge an aeronautics engineer has of NLP?
VoiceOfAll, Your edit did not go far enough. I've reduced the length of the paragraph, diffs. I added a qualifier that states it is not a majority view within NLP based on the lack of citations from authoritative sources. -- Comaze 06:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, VoiceOfAll. Effort towards clarify and brevity are at the forefront of my mind. I would say that Enneagrams are a lesser part of NLP though in comparison with engrams. Engrams are part of every part of NLP according to VAK, VK KAV, and every other aspect of internal engram sense circuits as has been explicitly explained by many NLP proponents, and as is implicitly indicated by all NLP texts according to the neuroscience explanation. Regards Camridge 05:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge, What is VAK, VK, KAV? -- Comaze 06:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, look through Dilts et al 1980. All those pseudomathematical notations are about those 4tuples, and they all explain the same kind of thing as the new diagram in the article. They all explain sense perceptions via engrams. But of course, you know that already, so I should just simply ignore your agenda to confuse and spread ignorance. Camridge 06:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
This IS a joke, isn't it? Another one who can't tell the difference between "enneagrams" and "engrams" and thinks the 4-tuple notations are "pseudo-science"!
1. Neither enneagrams NOR engrams are part of NLP - though it is certainly true that some NLPers dabble in enneagrams as well. But playing hockey and flying airoplanes doesn't mean that you have to be a pilot to play hockey!
2. The 4-tuple notation has nothing to do with science, any more than musical notation on a stave, or notation for ballet dancers, or Pitman's shorthand has anything to do with "pseudo-science". It is simply a form of shorthand which the writer uses to keep track of which perceptual system the writer thinks a client is accessing. Which again has NOTHING TO DO with engrams. It is the ignorance illustrated by comments such as those made by Cambridge which demonstrate the true mentality of the people who keep slagging off NLP and are clearly determined to present a totally unbalanced, highly negative POV. If the administrators of Wikipedia have any genuine concern for the integrity of their site then their action to halt this travesty is LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue.
Hi, mmm whoeverthisis. Read up on some neuroscience. If you are not completely averse to science or proper scientific research (as a lot of NLP fanatics are) you will quickly see that NLP uses the engram concept throughout the literature, including the original magic books. HeadleyDown 15:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze's objection ignored on account of facts being correctly cited, repeatedly verified, scientific, and on account of Comaze's clear determination to antagonize helpful editors, obscure issues and halt/retard progress. Camridge 07:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, NLP is fringe, and you are a fringe devotee. You are minority, and NLP is minority next to science. NLP is pseudoscientific, and pseudoscientists love to namedrop and make associations to neuroscience. Bandler and Grinder and all the others do that. But they don't explain how it fits with neurology, and the excuse is; its not science its epistemology, or technology, or we don't do theory. Those are pseudoscientific assertions and they make articles very unclear. Some NLPers do actually like to do theory. They state that neuro in NLP is explained using the engram concept. Science corroborates part of this theory, and clarifies further (Drenth, Levelt) by stating that they do it psuedoscientifically. The article WILL include engrams as that is a clarification of neuro, plus scienctists and critics view of engrams as explained by modern neuroscience (briefly as it is). That is what was agreed through mediation before, and as I have found over 20 references already to backup the mention of engram in NLP books, websites, and academic papers, then it will remain as the majority (scientific thinking to clarify pseudoscientific thinking) in the article. Camridge 08:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze I am referring to books from library searches in addition to web sources. I tend not to rely on Google's search engine for proof. There is no straw man argument anywhere on this article. The arguments used are strictly adherent to the literature. You have consistently promoted a pseudoscience (NLP) that makes wild claims throughout its promotion, throughout its principles, and throughout its literature. To remove such claims is simply whitewash, censorship, and dishonesty. You have been found guilty of all those anti-NPOV crimes, and the evidence is written all over your history. Camridge 10:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Fine - so where did you read the Dutch text of Drenth's article? Or do you have an English language translation?
PS, Amazon text searches are not satisfactory. A huge percentage of those books do not have searchable texts. Camridge 10:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The problem, Flavius, is that like most of the criticisms of NLP, the sources are either misquoted, or not from genuine authorities. In other words - blatant quote mining. Of the three references you offer, the first does make reference to engrams - but as the term has been used in psychology. There is NO claim that engrams are part of NLP. The second quote is from an author whose book on NLP is self-published and has more mistakes than I've had hot dinners. He offers NO support for his use of engrams within NLP. The third quote is also from a non-authoritative source who gives no support for his use of the term with in NLP. In addition to this - having failed to legitimately place engrams within NLP practice, the self-styled "critics" then claim that the use of engrams within NLP is similar to their use in Scientology. Since you have NO GENUINE EVIDENCE that engrams have ever been part of NLP, how on earth can anyone justify such an opinion?
Like most of the article, this is a pack of lies by a group of people obsessed, for some reason they are unwilling to state openly, with bad mouthing NLP, no matter how many lies and half truths it takes to do it. That the administrators of Wikipedia have allowed this travesty to continue throws the worst possible light on Wikipedia as a source of RELIABLE information.
My comments above provide prima facie evidence of this criticism.
Hi Flavius. I concur, the hologram description is just another way to say engram. The internal sense circuits NLP refers to all throughout their literature (every book to my knowledge) describes the engram concept perfectly. In practice it is the same.
There is no difference between a dianetics auditor telling a preclear to focus on a trauma and remove the sound several times over, and an NLP practitioner telling a client to use their submodalities to remove their trauma in the same way. They are identical and the concepts are the same: pseudoscientific adaptations of scientific terms.
The more scientifically read authors (Such as Sinclair, Hollander, and the French chap) use the term engrams, because engram is a more accurate description (nerve circuits on a holistic rather than micro level). The Hebb rule, that Dilts and others like to mention is correct to some extent, but some of the terms are out of place. And of course, Hebb only ever mentioned his rule in the context of the engram and the brain, not the unconscious/subconscious. Regards HeadleyDown 03:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
We organised an RfC over at the engram article and this was the response... "I found "engram" used in a number of neuroscience journals. A Google search returned mainly references to Scientology (apart from a sports-person named "Engram"), and I think the Scientology use should be kept distinguished from the neuroscience use; the meaning is not the same. The term is not used in the original books about NLP, but it would be accurate to say that some writers about NLP have used the term. A search of usenet:alt.psychology.nlp did produce a very few occasional uses of the term in the very large amount of discussion there. --Enlad 23:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)" -- Comaze 06:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Vote -- Rename the "Engram" section to "Neuro in neuro-linguistic programming" and then provide a paraphrase of all the major views and minor views on this subtopic Provide your vote below:
Comaze, ganging up with meatpuppets is certainly not ok. This has been discussed many times over. Stop your tedious and unconstructive behaviour. Akulkis, just read the archives properly, and read some science for a change. HeadleyDown 02:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis, I made a minor change to the wording of the question after you voted. Changes: providing to provide, and changed description to paraphrase which is more precise. -- Comaze 01:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Our mediator suggests that a poll will only work if we get other wikipedian editors in to vote. Otherwise, it will just be ignored by groups of editors who do not agree with the tally. -- Comaze 05:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your antagonism goes beyond the bounds of reasonable behaviour. Stop or face the consequences! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Engram_Trace_and_NLP_V-K_Circuit.JPG
Well Akulkis if you can offer any clarifying facts with citations that are not the proclamations of pseudoscientists, then perhaps you could be of use. Otherwise your addition of useless and uncited POV excuses will simply be reverted. Camridge 09:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze and Akulkis. Surreptitious changes to the page are generally noticable after a short time, even though they do not show on watchlists and summaries. That sort of "Mr Bean" cunning will backfire every time. Comaze, you are a surreptitious editor. Your lack of success to promote NLP here is due to your blatantly obvious zealous promotion of NLP, and your name has become a beacon for fanatical behaviour. Wikipedia is a neutrally oriented organization of facts. You have been working against Wikipedia on a daily basis. Your agenda is clear. HeadleyDown 02:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
We gave the NLP fanatics a great deal of slack with the allowance of more weight plus primacy. Now I think it is time to give science weight over pseudoscience in the opening and the article, but we can still allow NLP primacy (as is conventional). So NLP should be described as scientists describe it, rather than just how NLPers want to describe it, using primarily scientific descriptions, and then the scientific critics can have their say as is already written. NLP really will take a great deal of clarification. Its such a murky subject. Regards HeadleyDown 15:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Detractors simultaneously WITHIN THE SAME SECTION argue that NLP is pseudoscientific, and at the same time, claim that is successfully used by cults to control those within the cult, and that in the business community, it is used coercively. Exactly how can NLP be used to coerce someone if, by the claims that it is "pseudoscience" it doesn't work. This is equivalent to saying, "guns don't work AND the people who have them are killing people with them." You people (HeadlessDown, DaveWrong, and Camridge) are all over the fucking map. Pick an internally-consistant argument and stick with it.
Akulkis! Ignoring your personal attacks, your illogic is fatally unfounded. If you wish to accept that dianetics is effective in misleading people and that NLP is equally effective, then I agree. If you wish to promote NLP as a technology of achievement, you will feel the weight of several football stadiums full of scientists in white coats with all their bodies of knowledge against you. Not only are you erroneously promoting an ineffective set of rituals, but you are promoting a set of misdirecting new age concepts that are suspended using only a set of dubious pre-socratic pseudoscientific notions. There is hardly any need to answer your nonsense. I cannot see how you can present such a tissue of whoppers without noticing the mass of rational people who ARE laughing at your puny and ridiculous attempts at support. With nothing but Comaze and fanatical rhetoric to shore you up, you look about as sure footed as a rollerskating giraffe. In effect you are gobbing ineffectively into a gale-force wind. HeadleyDown 16:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, loooky looky, over at the Talk:Engram#visual_patterns_stored_in_the_brain page....Someone spews off a bunch of Dianetics/Scientology BS about what the "real" meaning of engram is, and our favorite kook-in-residence, HeadleyDown, is asking the guy for more information, because he says that the D/S explanation is "interesting." Excuse me, HeadlessDown, but this is the EXACT SORT OF PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC nonsense that you claim to be arguing against, and, most interestingly, that is ****NOT***** in NLP. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 23:25:08 UTC 2005
Hello Comaze. Polls are abominable, as the article implies. They are the kneejerk of meatpuppets such as you, Akulkis, and all the other NLP zealots such as FT2, GregA, and co. They are all certified NLP fanatics and should be treated in the same group. You all push psuedoscientific arguments, all use selective editing, and all disrupt by persistent badgering. Your promotional ploys are pathetic. Is fun to watch though:) Keep up the foolish work. DaveRight 04:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis, I understand you can be considered a meatpuppet. Your bias is clear, as is your willingness to attack. I did notice your dissociation with the more "spiritual technologists" though. That's why I mentioned you should try ditching NLP in favour of science for a while. You will be far more persuasive and effective that way. With serious studies to back you up, you will be unbeatable. I could be wrong but you may yet be capable of ditching the sticky pseudoscience of NLP. Cheers DaveRight 04:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
If many outsiders came in, and not brand new accounts either, and voted, polls would work. Otherwise, everyone is just split into the same two groups, so the other side ignores the poll and calls "meatpuppets". We need a more rough concesus, as opposed to tallying. Voice of All T| @| ESP 03:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
-- Comaze 03:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)==To HeadlyDown, Would you consider clean up this article please?== I had a bit of trouble reading the article. I was trying to moving the criticism under introduction section into the criticism haeding. I have not removed any lines from the article. I am sorry if this upsets you. If you feel that the article should not be changed at all, may be you should consider getting this article locked out. From an outsider point of view looking for a quick introduction on NLP and a quick list of pros and cons, I find the present layout quite confusing.-- RichardCLeen 13:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Richard. Sorry if I seemed a little brusque. I am indeed working on cleaning things up. There was an agreement to give NLP more primacy, and the NLPthencriticisms format should stay for now. Clean is indeed what I have planned. I am merging various aspects of applications in order to reduce redundancy and reduce the file size. I'll be only 10-20 minutes. Any suggestions are welcome. Regards. HeadleyDown 13:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
For sure, cleanup is a relevant issue now. There has been so much pressure from NLP wierdos to provide excessive evidence and explanation for the article that cleaning things up took less priority over brevifying and restoring facts that had been unreasonably censored. Now that the conflict is minimal (or at least very easy to deal with) I think a tidy article will be a good goal from now on. Of course, keeping things brief will help. I suggest general deletion of any undue NLP excuses (uncited) or excess promotional verbiage will be a good way to edit. Regards HeadleyDown 13:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see that DaveRight has ONCE AGAIN INCLUDED THE DIANETICS SLANDER AGAINST PERLS. Dave, your side has ALREADY FAILED to produce the slightest bit of evidence that Perls was promoting, or even using Dianetics. You know, you guys are just something else. I'm hardly and expert in this field, and yet, I'm catching you in deliberate lies left, right and center. The Perls/Dianetics reference is being REMOVED ... and it shall STAY THAT WAY until you can produce evidence for your claim.
Akulkis Sat Dec 17 01:39:36 UTC 2005
Akulkis, the fact is well supported. Mediation resulted in it remaining in the article. Your constant removal of fact is bad faith, and shows you to be an NLP zealot bent on censorship. The fact is clear from books on Gestalt, from dianetics books, and from some of his biographies. My recent reversion of your's and Comaze's confounding minor cap edits is due to the fact that it has all been dealt with in the archives. Either discuss and edit using facts and in good faith, or do not edit at all.
HeadleyDown
02:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
HeadlessClown, please explain your revert of changing this:
Back to this:
It is now OBVIOUS that when you say your are "correcting" things, that all you're doing is mass-reverting by just going back to a previous checkpoint, and blindly undoing ALL changes, without even fucking looking at the page -- which is both intellectually and academically dishonest, and indicative that you are NOT interested in cooperating with anyone, but merely here to OWN the page. Sorry, Headless, but if you hate NLP so much, then set up your own webpage, and write all your slanders there. I'll even support putting a link to your scribblings in the links section.
Akulkis
Hello Comaze. I did some checking, and your definition of personal attack is incorrect. Editor's clear description of your extremely biased editing, devious manouvers, and descriptions of your denial of fact is not a personal attack. In addition, Akulkis should simply be blocked from editing wikipedia. Personal attacks using deliberate misrepresentation of usernames, and abundant expletives is completely unacceptable, and has only served to paint NLP promoters as uncooperative anti-NPOV deviants. I have noticed that is a common characteristic of NLP promoters. The trend is clear. RomanX 04:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Bandler is described in the introduction as a mathematician. He has no degree in mathematics and he never worked as a mathematician so in what sense is he a mathematician? Bandler has a BA in psychology and philosophy and an MA is psychology. Unlike Grinder, Bandler never held a job outside of teaching and practicing NLP since his graduation. NLP is all he's ever done. At the time NLP was conceived Bandler can only be described as a "psychology graduate" flavius 15:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Flavius. Maybe you are right. Reports are confusing and sometimes completely erroneous though. Some call him DR Bandler:) Now that's funny! HeadleyDown 16:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I changed "mathematcian" to "psychology graduate". According to Lee Lady Bandler was a linguistics graduate refer [28] [29]. I'll continue investigating this. flavius 04:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Flavius. Unless we can obtain better evidence, we should provide only titles that we know for sure. Bandler's shamanic role is common knowledge. I did hear that he minored in psychology, but he was either a computer scientist or a math nerd. Either way, we need to clarify things regarding his quals. Dr is certainly not one of his qualifications. Bandler is most certainly not a psychologist now. RomanX 04:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with you, Flavius. Roles and titles are important, prior and present. Self help guru, is a term that covers both presently. One important fact that does need briefly explaining more clearly in the main body is that neither of them is a scientist or a psychologist. This could perhaps be placed in the pseudoscience section briefly. This is the view of Singer and Lalich, amongst others. Regards HeadleyDown 08:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello RomanX and welcome. This is a tricky one. BnG allow as many myths about them as people want to create. I think we would need to rely more on recent history to label them. They have made impacts into the self help industry and that seems to have been their greatest contribution (the spread of pseudoscience and mind myths). Salerno gives journalistic coverage of these facts. Really though, in a way NLP is not the product of the originators. It is simply an extension of the new age human potential movement. Hubbard instigated this through prompts from Aleister Crowley, and the occult aspects remain within millenial NLP new age developments. Indeed not a week goes by without some new spiritual technology appearing and most with some association with NLP. I will need some more conclusive evidence in order to make a decision. As people here realise, NLP is deliberately confusing and obscurantic. HeadleyDown 12:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis Sat Dec 17 03:31:25 UTC 2005 Salerno is HIMSELF of dubious authority. A large number of reviewers on Amazon.com cite faulty logic, assertions without evidence, and outright fabrication and mischaracterization. See here: [ for Sham : How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless by Steve Salerno]
Hello Akulkis and Comaze. Having had a good read through both of your many objections, I would consider your efforts a concerted whitewash of NLP. If you wish to edit on this article, I suggest you do a few years of trust recovery first. If you wish to present facts on the article, you would also do well to take a scientific/anthropological/historical perspective. Your current perspective is taken from that of pseudoscience. Sorry, Akulkis and Comaze. You have been rumbled and that is due to your own exposure of your strongly antagonistic agenda. The only way I can see to deal with your misdirecting and unreason is to write briefly that you are in error, or are simply here to cause trouble, and to revert your obscuring of the facts. RomanX 04:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The misrepresentation of criticism is not limited to the Dianetics / engram stuff. The opening line to "Dubious applications" contains this statement ....
Objections:
The rules at most universities state that you should whenever possible cite the original research. Quoting Barrett and NCAHF in this manner is not acceptable. There are many similar examples in the criticism section. Other citations need to be checked for misrepresentation and overgeneralisation. I am not impressed with the accuracy of the current document - both in definitions and criticism of NLP. Can someone neutral please check it and make necessary corrections starting with statements attributed to NCAHF and Dr. Barrett. I am making notes on the various areas with that need a fact and reference check. Normal the fact and reference check team will only go to work on a page that is fairly stable (ie. with no edit wars). If Loma exist and is notable a simple google search could prove the point. At the moment we have no verifiable evidence that Loma exists, or is notable. I think the author was created or a simple error. Unless evidence is found, I will remove all references and statements attributed to Loma 2001. I'll give you until tomorrow and then I'll delete all text attributed to Loma (2001). There is a town in california called: Loma Linda, CA -- Comaze 06:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Metta Bubble. There are many sources who state NLP is dubious, and some of them also call it devious, banal, a cult and so on. I have added their corroborating view to that of NCAFH, who does have weight as a consumer awareness body. It is the view of a significant body of authors. Regards HeadleyDown 03:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello again Metta Bubble. I know if you type various stuff into Google, various magical things happen. However, the NCAFH has been around a while, and has accrued a fair amount of litigation because the US is a highly litigous society. Consider why they would want to class NLP as a dubious therapy. What evidence do they have that NLP is a dubious therapy? I suspect it is because they have the same evidence that is presented on this article; that of empirical science. NLP is pseudoscientific in principle theories, ineffective in practice, and pseudoscientific in excuse. What could be more dubious than claiming your "therapy" is a kind of theraputic magic? NLP was, is, and will continue to be dubious. Reason is important here. If you are disputing that NLP is not a dubious therapy (or that is not the view of some people) then I think you are in the wrong place. Regards HeadleyDown 13:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello not Comaze. I discovered the Loma reference on a scholarly journal Proquest search database. It comes from a scholarly source, and it places NLP as a dubious therapy. I believe this does need more clarification within the article. The science and pseudoscience section can be expanded to explain this fact further. I am not responding to Comaze, but to the reasonable editors who want to see clarity in contrast with Comaz and his desire to obscure the facts. HeadleyDown 13:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley. NLP is clearly supported by as many scientists as not. Even a cursory review of Medline shows this. There is no accord of any kind in the medical or scientific community. Notwithstanding this, it should be made clear in our article that therapuetic applications are only a small part of NLP. Hence criticisms thereof should be scaled down accordingly. NLP is now government accredited in many countries. And so too, NLP has a fascinating history full of controversy. NLP's history should be used to enrich our article, instead of trying to paint a black and white picture. Peace. Metta Bubble 02:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble, we have been through this ad nausium. Refer to the archives, and refer to overviews and reviews of the research. HeadleyDown 03:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Read this and weep, Flavius/Camridge/HeadleyDown/DaveRight....
QUACKWATCH is now officially discredited.
1. Barrett has lost his license, and is under criminal prosecution for the activities carried out under the auspices of Quackwatch. He, and others in the organization have been INDICTED on the following charges:
[[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/smokingoutpaymasters.htm]]
....so, that pretty much wraps up Quackwatch, and all Barret references for lack of credibility.
2 Also, regarding the associated organization, NCAHF -- they were taken over by Barrett, and their website has been taken down.
3. Barrett sued the guy who runs www.quackpotwatch.com for defamation and libel in Pennsylvania court (Barrett's home state). The judge ruled that since the writings about Barrett in Quackpotwatch were true, and therefore failed the legal test for both defamation and libel. Therefore, Quackpotwatch IS a credible source concerning Barret -- so says a judge Pennsylvania who was asked to rule ON THE SPECIFIC ISSUE of whether Quackpotwatch is credible in regards to the content regarding Barrett. So solly! Akulkis 13:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There is strong evidence against your proposal, Blauregen. The website is still in existence, Barrett is still practicing and publishing, and your links do not work. It is still in play. Plus, even if your erroneous assertions were true, the view is corroborated. Sorry, you are the same as Comaze. You now have a history of unreasonable pressure to delete facts. HeadleyDown 15:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I tried to read this article again. I have a few questions. 1) Is NLP useful? 2) Can you make NLP useful? 3) Is NLP dangerous? 4) Can you make NLP not dangerous? 5) If NLP is unscientific, is there any value studying and researching into NLP? -- RichardCLeen 21:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I was trying to ask whether NLP is so dangerous that it should be banned? -- RichardCLeen 12:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh I see. No, NLP is considered potentially dangerous, together with primal scream therapy, and other subjects. It is also considered potentially dangerous in its association with cult activities and LGATS. On of the dangers is that it gives people status without expertise. One case is of LGAT activities of NLP that involve activities that put them into a hyperventilation situation. Another is the use of pseudoscience and breathing, nutrition, "cleansing" and the use of extreme confrontation a la Perls/Farrelly/Bandler/PaulMckenna where litigation has ensued. Clinical psychologists do not want this kind of dubious and potentially traumatic "therapy" to be used within their profession. Your question is totally reasonable. Regards HeadleyDown 12:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
stuck in a pure-carbon-dioxide-atmosphere for 60 seconds, it will be uncomfortable, but there is no lasting damage....as soon as oxygen is re-introduced into the lungs, the organism can resume as if nothing happened. This is NOT true for carbon monoxide. This is why carbon monoxide is dangerous, and carbon dioxide is not.
Yes Flavius. I will do my best to distil your argument down to a line or two to help clearly explain the scholarly views of those scientists/experts in the article. Camridge 08:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The online referenced sources Tippet, Singer, Eisner, Novopashin seem to agree that methods found in NLP are used effectively in various cultlike groups. Shupe & Darnell list NLP in a glossary without referencing it as a cult. None of them refers to NLP as a cult though, and using principles and methods from a discipline does not create equality to it. The contributors may have misread this. Should the sources that aren't available online indeed classify NLP as a cultlike movement it may be helpful to clarify this. Blauregen 12:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Comaze, it is an unknown. You are not here to invent facts. HeadleyDown 03:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your little 1988 (pre-debunking) quote is not at all a counter example. If anything it verifies that NLP has cult characteristics. DaveRight 04:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Blauregen. To my knowledge and notes, there is a significant body of scientists who state NLP is a cult or cult-like. Novopashin regards NLP as a psycho-cult, Singer has explained further that NLP is used by mild and destructive cults, and they do not say that NLP is effective. Singer reiterates that NLP is ineffective. Please feel free to clarify this by rigorous searches of the literature. You will find that there is indeed a significant view that NLP is a cult. Regards HeadleyDown 12:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Blauregen. As you know there is more to the article than what you have cited. You are working against brevity on this article. The source states "amoral psychocult". If you wish to post pseudo-psychological training and so on, you will actually do very little good for your agenda. It still looks like a cult. More specifically a psychocult. And there are further negative points that can be posted. I cannot see how you can benefit any editor, either the NLP zealots, or the editors who are trying to get this article cleaned up and in concise shape. HeadleyDown 02:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello editors. Eisner's (notable?) opinions have been distorted in our article. Should they be removed? We say he thinks NLP is a cult, but in fact he makes no such assertion. On p.158 Eisner says, "Both Sharpley and Elich et al. conclude that NLP is akin to a cult ..." So he's merely citing someone else? Right. Furthermore, a citability issue. Eisner's speciality is law and ethics and he runs a malpractice law firm suing psychotherapists from any and all fields. He makes it clear he would have sued Freud if given the chance. I think we should be really hesitant to use him as an authority on any kind of therapeutic opinion. Peace Metta Bubble 02:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble. Eisner is a fully qualified clinical psychotherapist. He also has the expertise to write books about therapy and conduct legal cases agains malpractice as an expert in psychotherapy. He successfuly holds two professional roles. He also refers to empirical science throughout his literature, and supports the view that NLP is a cult. To remove his view would be to remove clarification.
HeadleyDown
03:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Direct quote from Steven Hassan (p.33 Combating cult mind control, 1988) "[Hassan] studied the foundational models of NLP (Bateson, Satir, Perls). This enabled him to create a model of how people successfully enter and exit from cult mind control ." -- Comaze 04:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a quote from Hassan's new book (2000) called 'Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves'... "Although I am aware of several cult leaders specifically studying Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), I suspect that most cult groups use informal hypnotic techniques to induce trance states. They tend to use what are called "naturalistic" hypnotic techniques. Practicing meditation to shut down thinking, chanting a phrase repetitively for hours, or reciting affirmations are all powerful ways to promote spiritual growth. But they can also be used unethically, as methods for mind control indoctrination." [53] -- Comaze 06:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I was just trying to point out that it can be used by both. Some of the editors do not understand the different between a technology and its uses. The ethical or unethical use of NLP is entirely in the hands of the practitioner. -- Comaze 00:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi All. I noticed that the source
[55] in section cult characteristics lists only one organisation with the Letters 'N','L' and 'P' in this order. The source seems to be largely a list of alleged 'totalitarian sects'. A google search for NLP Rekaunt did not reveal any clarifying information, so i can't decide wether this source is relevant for the article at all. After all wikipedia alone lists 6 articles as a disambiguation for the abbreviation 'NLP'. Could someone who is fluent in the language of the document please verify wether this organisation is in any way connected to neuro-linguistic programming at all? Thanks in advance.
Blauregen
11:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. This article has been supported by months of research by hard working professional researchers. A great deal of extra research was provided because certain NLP promoters demanded inordinate amounts of further evidence. That was provided, and NLP promoters overreated by adding extreme confusion and excuse to the article. This led to a very large article. The effort is to bring the article to a size that is representitive of NLP (a fringe subject that does not deserve more than an article of explanation). This also means that some of the refs have been cut. Just because a view only has one or two references supporting it, that does not mean that those are the only two people in the universe supporting the view. The views of scientists and experts represented in this article are generally cross-corroborating. I, and others who have edited here for a while, have a large collection of evidence to draw upon for supporting the views presented. There is no point in attacking views of scientists and similar experts just because only a few refs support those views. Science gets weight. Rather than waste everybody's time demanding extra explanations, just go and look up the reasoning for the view, learn it, accept it and go and do something useful. If you are here simply to cause trouble, have tantrums, and remove cited facts, just go away and don't come back. That includes you Comaze and Akulkis. HeadleyDown 08:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Metta Bubble. The focus should not be on removing facts. All views should be represented here in due sequence of priority. The views of scientists and significant experts and bodies should be verified and citations provided. If NLP fanatics will stop trying to remove those views perhaps life would be simpler. Right now it seems that in order for the views to be supported, the file size of the article will have to grow. Are you seeking concise editing, or fussy overzealous verification? Regards HeadleyDown 13:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I find it VERY interesting that HeadleyDown insists on the inclusion of disputed anti-NLP references, etc. but at the same time, anything which is NOT anti-NLP which is disputed, he insists must be removed. You're still behaving like hypocrite, and as a person who thinks that this page should personally belong to himself. There are many things which I find distasteful on this page, but they are properly phrase ("it is the opinion of X that Y") as composed to much of what Headley writes ("...X is Z" without acknowledging that the opinion is not universally supported, nor acknowledging that many of the detractors have conflict-of-interest problems with respect to NLP, and especially widespread public understanding of it, and the methods, especially communications and propagands methods, which have developed from it.). Furthermore, it is interesting that he hides behind a pseudonym, especially since even non-experts such as myself have caught him perpetrating numerous lies on this page. At this point, I believe that the only remedy is some method of revoking his editing privileges on the NLP page until such time that he demonstrates the ability to behave in some way other than a religious fanatic Akulkis Sun Dec 18 20:49:23 UTC 2005
but a fake, nevertheless. But, considering how they always pay me money, and all the other guys...the ACTORS who are all part of the conspiracy...how they all like the money they're getting...I think I'll keep doing it....I mean, after all, why should I shut the whole show down NOW...after all these years? Some of those actors who are part of the conspiracy to fool me into thinking I'm in the army...they NEED the paycheck.
army......Flavius, if it were you, would you quit, and throw out all of those actors, some of whom REALLY NEED THE MONEY that they earn playing their various roles in this giant charade to keep me fooled into thinking that I'm in the army when I never was? I mean... well, considering how much money The Conspiracy must have, if they can go to all the expense that they have so far, just to fool a nobody like me into thinking I'm in the army when I'm not...well then....yeah, I guess I'll just pretend like I don't know what they're up to.....I mean, after all, with the economy so lousy here in Detroit, the last thing we need in this area is a couple hundred actors all put out of work at once. Akulkis 04:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
flavius 06:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Your comments today are unhelpful and unproductive as usual. They are all ignored.
HeadleyDown
03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree that a lot of NLPers are quite sloppy with regard to scientific research and a lot of NLP practice is not as effective as it claims to be. However I find that the criticism of cultism in this article borders on sensationalism and tabloid journalism. Therefore I have nominated this article for NPOV. --
Dejakitty
22:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Dejakitty. You seem to wish to remove stated facts of scientists and experts. The view of NLP as a cult is widespread and holds the weight of science and anthropology amongst other expert views. HeadleyDown 03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley. Judging by Dejakitty's "credentials" he/she seems to be a meatpuppet/sockpuppet of Comaze or Akulkis. Don't waste your time. Lets just get on with the clarifications. Metabubble seems to be a little more convincing, but nevertheless has teamed up with a 10 times a day fact deleting certified NLP fanatic (Comaze), and a tourette's ridden pseudoscientist (Akulkis). Either way, their efforts to remove cited fact are as doomed to failure as the last bunch of psychoshaman wannabes. Cheers DaveRight 04:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Nobody is siding with anybody. Let's restore some
civility in this discussion. Ignore the personal remarks, and accept that uncivil behaviour is unfortunately a part of everyday life on wikipedia. Use strikethroughs to remove personal attacks and remarks. We've got an open arbitration evidence page so I suggest that everyone submit their evidence there so we can air our disputes and get on with it. Let's support each other as wikipedians regardless of content disputes. New users are welcome here and sometimes we need to point them in the direction of wikipedia policy so they can understand the wikipedia philosophy, and assume good faith. A reminder that this is not usenet -- we are here to work together and discuss to come to a consensus about what is Neutral point of view. I've sent private messages to people who have engaged in personal attacks against anyone here. I will do whatever it takes to restore civility on this page. --
Comaze
06:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Comaze, nobody is fooled by your whitewash. Though I suspect some find it amusing.
Bookmain
08:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
What do you make of the following remark in Background? Sarcasm? "...because he could not resolve the dispute through the use of NLP."
Also is there any objection to changing the sarcastic "Scientology of Acheivement" image with this one? The question is does anyone have any specific objections to moving the criticism of application to the appropriate section, or to using the second image? I think it is more neutral because it removed the Scientology bias and some of the sarcasm. I think the caption could read, "Don't ask why, ask how" but that can be negotiated. -- Comaze 08:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Blauregen. I am unaquainted with your game metaphors. What is a quakemap? I am neither quaking nor do I use maps for my reality. I prefer views. Metaphors aside, your pressure is towards Comaze's sort of whitewash. And your efforts promise to be as futile as the last set of NLPfans. You cannot remove views that are supported by multiple sources. HeadleyDown 16:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
::This is amazing. Not only has Comaze had to resort to mass slurs on personal pages, but he has tried to doctor images in a way that makes them meaningless. I don't really know Comaze (and really would rather not) but his sort of obsessive censorship behaviour is really freaky and wierdo. You do get some strange people here.
DaveRight
06:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. Comaze has been trying to provoke people into conflict for months. He has posted unreasonable objections on multiple editors personal pages for months, has made repeat queries to issues that have been dealt with for months, and places criticisms in areas where they will be hard to deal with without conflict. Any provocation from long term antagonist Comaze is best dealt with by reversion, or by deleting his irritation on your personal pages. Keeping conflict to a minimum is important on this article. HeadleyDown 01:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your objections hold no weight. Your agenda is clear from your history (deletion of science and critical facts, persistent harrassment, and general NLP-zealot behaviour). You, and co-antagonists will simply be ignored. Camridge 05:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Strange how all of the unsupported LIES and other erroneous inclusions are come from
HeadleyDown , and
Camridge, but not Comaze. If he's such a liar, then how come it is YOU guys who are doing all of the lying? As stated before, I'm hardly an expert on the subject of NLP, but I've caught BOTH of you red-handed, REPEATEDLY, inserting outright lies (let alone assertions with extremely dubious support) into this page.
Akulkis Tue Dec 20 09:44:16 UTC 2005
Just to help with explanations, I noticed that the sense based notion of human behaviour that NLP uses is extremely convenient (albeit groundless). If the assumption is taken on, then all you need to do to change behaviour is to alter those internal representations. It is perfect for use in cults, and for development of hypochondriach/paranoia ritual development. I noticed this is also connected with NLP assertions that "your mind does not know the difference between real and imagined happenings" and the that this can somehow be transferred to the use of language/magic words, and so on. I suspect that this can be useful as a line of explanation in the pseudoscience section. Any further associated suggetions? Camridge 06:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
For page that does not have conduct issues and significant content disputes then refactoring would be an option. I'm going to go through my lightly refactor my posts in an attempt to stop the circular arguments. I think that detractors would just get in the way. If we were all getting along then we could refactor any off-topic or repeated contentto help us keep the talk page clean, see Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages. Imagine how good this page would be if we had on topic, minimalistic replies :) Now that is a desired future. I am however going to check all my mosts and remove any personal remarks that I have made, if you see any, please let me know. A simple strikethrough can be used to remove personal remarks or attacks made at anyone. I strongly encouage everyone to go through your posts and refactor and remove any personal attacks. On wikipedia, no personal attacks and avoid personal remarks can be used interchangeably. In fact, any personal comments should also be avoided. Personal attacks can and will be removed, and any attack should brought to the attention of the author. Although it is better if someone else removes it for you or somebody else defends you when being attacked. Let's start supporting each other regardless of content disputes. This discussion page is to discuss weight of various points of view with the aim of presenting a neutral point of view. It is not a place for pushing POV or shouting at each other. I'm going to become less involved in the editing of this page while arbitration is open so as to reduce disputes or chance of any new conflicts arising. -- Comaze 09:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
:Yes, Comaze, you go ahead and do some more whitewash, and we can go ahead and ignore you some more.
DaveRight
06:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your intense antagonism and tedious, unconstructive nuisance is once again noted. Camridge 09:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Engram_Trace_and_NLP_Circuit.JPG
Hi Mr um, Mr um... I believe you have missed a few versions of that image already. Indeed it does look better without the brainmatter, but Comaze has been doing far more censorious editing with that and other images. He is into removing important information (check the eye accessing image versions). He removed the information about breathing and head position, I believe because although it is mentioned in core NLP books, it is some of the more obvious twaddle in NLP. HeadleyDown 11:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Not only is Comaze using every sociopathic method he can to cause extra work, conflict, and ungrounded slurs, but he is doing it in an organized way. His cutting of important information on the images presented that comes directly from NLP books is obviously part of his agenda to whitewash NLP, and his multiple revert habit is simply being focused on adjoining supporting articles to this. He cannot get his way with deleting facts, so he focusses more on creating conflict. His activities have been 100% focused towards view-narrowing, fact deleting, anti-NPOV activity, and I strongly believe he should be blocked. Camridge 09:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There are so many misleading statements in the Criticism section, here is another one that can probably be removed entirely...
-- Comaze 22:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your effort to supersize the article has been noted. HeadleyDown 03:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Editors. This article has been correctly marked as a NPOV dispute for many many months. Edit warring occurs daily and many people reach their 3 revert limit regularly. It is a gross show of bad faith to remove the NPOV tag until issues have been resolved. It's a gross show of bad faith to remove these tags at the best of times, yet that this removal occured by editors that are currently under arbitration is even worse. I concur with Dejakitty and many others in the archives that this article needs both cleaning up and a more balanced perspective. The debate on the talk page is a meat factory and will clearly benefit from some strict arbitration impositions. Peace. Metta Bubble 23:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
With the current state of the article i have to agree with Metta Bubble. The tags are restored. Blauregen 14:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Blauregen, vague assertions are unconvincing under the circumstances. Thus, your anti-mediation action is inevitably reverted. HeadleyDown 14:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I can agree regarding the cleanup-tag. The vast amount of disputed points on the talk page show that this article does not conform to NPOV though. Blauregen 15:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I am going to double check some refs. I do warn people though, that may result in concise writing, but also in tons more verification/triangulation of NLP's more harsh critics. That is the history of this article; Editors provide facts, NLP fanatics such as FT2, Metabubble, and Comaze demand more, and more harsh criticism ends up on the article. Wow, we have removed so much also, and that is destined to come back in briefer, punchier form. NLP zealots are their own worst enemy. Cheers DaveRight 05:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all and Merry Xmas. Its fine to see the struggle against fanatical censorship is succeeding in producing a clear yet concise article at last. I checked the romanised Russian NLP Rekaunt status, and it is indeed classed as a destructive cult due to the occurrance of mass suicides in that NLP group. I can resore the ref concisely. Chiao. AliceDeGrey 06:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Psychopablum is a commonly used word in psychotherapy circles and appears in dictionaries. Someone (I suspect Comaze) keeps deleting the article. I just wish to point this out as a lot of sneaky deletions/image buggery have been going on by NLP fanatics. It is simple enough to restore the highly educational psychopablum article. All facts can be restored, and more are to come. The censorship behaviour of NLP fanatics is pathetically and predictably futile and impotent. Camridge 07:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This article has gotten so much better than before. I dont mind sectional tags, then I know what to look at. But global tags on a long article I keep looking over is a bit bothersome.
A section on the lack of a clear consensus on NLP methods might be useful and has been created. Voice of All T| @| ESP 19:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Sure VoA. That gives me another few things to check over in the lit. Cheers DaveRight 01:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. The neuro concept is used throughout NLP. So I think that could go back into the main theory section. NLP uses the engram concept of neural pathways throught the senses and the brain circuits. Thats an engram according to science and as such should get weight. Also, NLP is new age historically and philosophically. So the section in varying concepts could read; Specific occult application, or something like that. Cheers DaveRight 01:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Just so we know who we are dealing with:
It has come to my attention that Akulkis has been recruiting meatpuppets from the Mindmastery Essentialskills yahoo group. Here is the subject area of the said group:
Amazing Power of REAL Mind Control, ancient teachings, Modern teachings scientifically researched. For YOU to GAIN ADVANTAGES & POWER in Secret, Hidden and Lost disciplines: Mind-Power, Mental Magic, Invisible Body, Miracles, Secret Prayers, Mental Atmosphere, Remote Influence, Mental Suggestion, Psychic Attack, Psychic Self-Defense, Mental Healing, Abundance, Mental Power, Psychotronic Power, Mentation, Subtle Body, Seduction, Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), hypnosis, Self-Hypnosis, Mesmerism, Mind Control, Remote Viewing, Manifestation, Invisibility, Orgone Energy Generators, Time Lines, Brain Waves, Psychic Influence, Astral Travel, Fluidic Body, Mental Plane, Psychic Powers, Mental Influence, Zipping Protection, Energy Healing, Martial Arts, Qi Kong, Remote Viewing Past, Controlling Future, Manifesting, Dream Control, Dream Invader, Cloud Bursting, Magick, Kahuna, Huna, Secret Technologies, Pranic Energy, Psychokinetic Phenomena, Mental Radio, Voodoo, The "God" Spot, Aura Shielding, Meridians, Magnets, Psychic Mind Control, Demons, Psychic Functioning, Prophecy, Black Magick, Precognition, Dream Precognition, Time Distortion, Size Distortion, Auto-Suggestion, White Magick, Brain Training, Pendulum, Depossession, Out-of-Body, Luck, Psychic Laws, Ha Prayer Ritual, Secret Banishing, Mana Charging, Diagnostic Methods, Intuition, ESP Brain Wave Secrets, Distance Influence, Alpha Brain Wave, L-Rods, Guarding Mana, Theta Training, Secret Door to Delta, Accessing the High Self Consciously, Bio-Plasma, Bio-Energy, Psi Secrets, Suggestology, Eyeless Sight, Radionics, Supernatural, Psionics Generators, Evil Eye, Dowsing, Mind Expansion, Levitation, Life Readings, Intercepting Telepathy, Dream Secret School, Pyramid Energy, Radiesthesia, Spiritualism, Spontaneous Telepathy, Telepathic Hypnosis, Thought Power, Odic Force, Orgone Energy, Aura of Energy, Mind Clarity, Subconscious Mind hookup, and much, much more."
Here is Aaron's message to the group (dated 15th Dec):
From: Aaron Kulkis <akulkis@...> Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:31 pm Subject: NLP on Wikipedia akulkis2 Offline Send Email
Morons have polluting the Wikipedia page, trying to link NLP to Dianetics and Scientology, because obviously enneagrams = engrams....(even though nobody in NLP uses the term engram, other than some fringe loser author who absolutely nobody references except for these cranks -- who, it seems, have some financial and/or professional-status motivation to slander the NLP community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming#Engrams_-_enneagr\ ams
It's time to bring some people more knowledgeable than myself into this.
Plus, 10 people can pick apart the arguments of these cranks better than one.
Aaron
According to the NLP article history, Metta Bubble, DejaKitty, and Blauregen joined soon after the message was sent. There were also some anonymous IPs that also joined in the fact deletions and advocacy thereof.
I'm sure Wikipedia has nothing against someone's belief in remote influence, Kahuna sect, or Ha Prayer Rituals, and of course it is a free world mostly and one should not be banned or persecuted for remote viewing, telepathic hypnosis, or pyramid energy development as they wish. However, that background may cause a slight bias towards pseudoscientific thinking.
I will post the appropriate meatpuppet messages. Bookmain 02:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
What a fascinating idea. :) Ok. For the records: I hereby state that i am neither associated with Akulkis, nor with Metta Bubble, DejaKitty or Comaze. In addition. I agree that with Comaze that the current mud-slinging here bears no relevance for the topic of the article. Blauregen 09:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Very predictable Blauregen. The activities of NLP fanatics has always been futile and ultimately insignificant. It doesn't matter what you say. HeadleyDown 10:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble. Your edits are as erroneous as all NLPpromoters have come before you. Your comment "some schools" in ethical concerns is simply your POV. Tell me where in the literature it says "some schools". Your edits follow the same pattern as Comaze's; they are wrong, and they betray a desire to delete facts from the article or change the meaning of those facts. Furthermore, they confirm your appearance as a meatpuppet of Akulkis. Camridge 07:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble. Your actions are completely futile and inappropriate considering you have worked tiresomly towards removing or changing the meaning of facts, and your appearance has been congruent with Akulkis' recruited meatpuppets.
Camridge
07:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble, If you will not discuss this on your own discussion page, then we will discuss on the main NLP discussion page. Your appearance (12th) coincides (within a few days) with Akulkis' appeal for help from more NLP fanatics and he does not have to appeal through public postings. Of course he asked more people for help. He is doing abysmally here on his own. Bookmain 08:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi All.
Since the non-criticism-part of the article seems already either neutral or contains criticism too we can probably get rid of a few subsections of criticism.
Ethical concerns: This subsection does not apply to the article overall. NLP itself as a collection of methods and principles has no ethical dimension. No sane wikipedian would even think about for example editing the article about nuclear physics with a section "Ethical concerns: Physicists in this field were widely criticised for their contribution to the development of nuclear weapons .... " A hypothetical section on NLP-based therapy, NLP-based coaching or NLP-based sales tactics might have an ethical dimension. I suggest to discard this subsection and to place the relevant parts under the appropriate subsections of Applications of NLP again, as it is done for example in the article about hypnosis.
Questionable Applications: Can be completely merged with the Applications part. The new age and occult-nonsense from applications could be extracted together with the cult-references into a new section "New Age and religious connotations of NLP".
Cult Characteristics: Since the large majority of sources only mention the use of techniques from NLP together with techniques from hypnotism and similar areas in cult recruiting, and only solitary sources state the opinion that the promotion of NLP itself has characteristics akin to a cult this seems a little ridiculous. You could as well enter a similar section in the article about chemistry stating it is closely related to terrorism because methods and principles of chemistry are used in the construction of bombs. I propose to add a subsection under Applications instead that mentions this. The opinion that NLP itself has cult characteristics could be either placed under a section "Promotion".
Extraordinary Claims: You get whackos that tell flat lies or phantasize in every kind of sales pitch. This could be summed up under "Promotion" as well.
Pseudoscience/claims to science: Actually there is an article about Pseudoscience. Instead of listing all it's alleged traits here again we can as well leave it at a link to this page and mention that <source> states that NLP is pseudoscientific. And that some proponents of NLP claim a scientific background.
This way we could shorten the article considerably, achieve a proper grouping of criticism to the criticised elements and avoid redundancy.
Any Objections? Blauregen 12:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Blauregen. Any objection. HeadleyDown 12:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC). OK I should explain: Go through the archives. Your suggestions are unreasonable HeadleyDown 12:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
==Gary Phillips
I find the NLP article to essentially pejorative rather than an attempt to define and explain NLP. I have already corrected a few simple errors of fact, but the article needs to be just replaced. It is like an article on evolution written by a creationism - the only point is to destroy the topic, not to explain it. Yes, there are individuals who have taken NLP in the direction of cultism, and there are no doubt some errors and dependence on out dated information. But the article does not address the real positives of NLP. It is essentially anew way of thinking about human competencies, of breaking down fluffy concepts like "thinking" and "excellent performance" into specific sensory based components that can and must be observed in sensory terms and then worked with in verifiable ways. When I can I will assemble a rebuttal to the pseudoscience section, but it does not belong in the article. While not beyond criticism, NLP is a major intellectual contribution to mankind. It is a disservice to wikapedia users not to offer an explanation of it rather than a diatribe against it.
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Oh joy, Christmas is on its way. I have just started removing early critters from the NLP bible and looking at making brief. I noticed that science still gets a great deal less air time and weight than the NLP section. I'm sure that will please the babblers. Whatever, lets see what we can do about condensing things. I removed the NLP for coppers section. It could be reduced to a line and placed somewhere else (perhaps in the outrageous claims section:). Cheers DaveRight 03:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Well done chaps. Looks like we'll have it back in shape in no time. Gave it the once-over and nipped out some repeats. Keep up the good work.
AliceDeGrey
09:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I've made some content preserving changes to the introduction and overview. Some of the grammar was poor and the expression awkward. Some attributions are required for the the material in the overview, eg. foundational assumptions, brain lateralization. Can the person that originally inserted that copy add some citations? flavius 15:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes Flavius. The content is worth preserving. When it is foreshortened it tends to be denied by NLP promoters: "they didn't say that!" and they delete. Looks fine to me. HeadleyDown 16:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree it is far better when seperated like it is. I don't wish to assume bad faith, but the history of this article shows extreme promotion by NLP people. On top of NLP blowing its own trumpet throughout the literature will make for a very promotional NLP section and there is not much we can do about that apart from point out the obvious bias of fans. NLP fans also seem to consider themselves persuasive, and they think they can reframe the article to suit themselves and do some kind of magic to make everything seem great. Of course the article will simply be balanced out using criticism. I don't think there will be a problem with that though, as long as mediators understand that the pro and con will definitely be quite a contrast. But it is a natural effect of NLP with its intrinsic hype, and the harsh words that science has to say about that (science doesn't like that sort of thing). As long as the article is kept within a reasonable size, and the NLP promoters keep the views open and do not whitewash, I think things will be a lot easier from now. JC
I have reworked the section titled 'Basic Tenets'. These were a mix of tenets and techniques so I renamed it 'Fundamentals' and re-cast the behavioral cues in terms of Dilts' B.A.G.E.L model. I think it reads clearer now. flavius 13:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Where is the discussion regarding the disputed protions of the 'Overview'. The foundational assumptions appear accurate (I scanned through some of my seminar manuals -- Sikes, James -- and was able to corroborate most of them. Perhaps the problem is that these largely implicit assumptions are not conventionally presented in this format. Admittedly, when the assumptions implicit in NLP are made explicit NLP comes to resemble Dianetics. I suspect that this is the source of any dispute. I can attempt to rework this section, presenting the foundational assumptions in a more NLP idiomatic manner and with citations. Shall I proceed? flavius 03:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Some minor fixes:
FT2 04:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I have reorganized a couple of sections - thus made "overview" a section including subsections for engram, brain lateralization, foundations, etc. I think it makes more sense that way when you read the contents. FT2 07:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi FT2. NLP does not receive wide support. Just because it is listed in some associations (alongside primal scream therapy, EFT and other such pseudos) it does not mean wide support. To prove wide support in this case you would probably need to conduct a poll. And the result would be "what's NLP?" or "you must be kidding" etc. Just to keep things equal and easy to handle, it was suggested that we keep a nice free space for NLP promotion, and a place for criticisms. Criticisms does not mean "mixed reviews". It means people do not like these bits about NLP. You already have the associations that support NLP in the promotional sections. If you want to avoid the problems you caused previously, I suggest you start acting cooperatively and just do your thing with writing dubious sections about cognitive awareness etc.
HeadleyDown
14:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I reworked the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. It began "NLP authors tend to emphasize a focus on obtaining results rather than working with theory" and then proceeded to outline the rudiments of NLP theory. It was also contaiminated with elements of technique and objectives. The stuff about the Meta/Milton Model is redundant and in any event it doesn't belong in a subsection that is supposed to describe the foundational assumptions. Also I created a new section about NLP practitioners stated position on theory and put the relevant text (that was in 'Foundational Assumptions' in there. flavius 05:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I've extended the 'Foundational Assumptions' into a set of basic premises that undergird and distinguish NLP. I don't think its complete and the last two don't appear right. GregA had some ideas about NLPs foundational core. GregA, what do you think? flavius 06:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Flavius. It looks much better that way. You may expect the NLP whitewashers will change it back though. I'm glad the article has become more manageable. It also makes it more obvious when FT2 and the other promoters run around in their whitewashing panic. Whatever happens though, there is still a lot more clarification for the criticisms section. I have just got through some interesting stuff from Europe criticising NLP. I'll add when I've more time. ATB AliceDeGrey 07:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Note: I'm still working on the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. I'll complete the citations and extend the list of premises shortly. Bear with me. All premises will preferably be sourced from NLP primary texts and cited properly. flavius 22:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to expand the 'Stated Attitude to Theory' sub-section. Dilts et al (1980) devotes a few pages to distinguishing NLP as a 'model' and not a 'theory'. The terms 'model' and 'theory' are used by Ditls et al (1980) in an idiosyncratic manner entirely inconsistent with their usage within the domains from which they originate (namely science and philosophy of science). Their motivations for this idiosyncracy are a matter of conjecture and potentially POV but its existence is a matter of brute fact. I am considering including an authoritative definition of 'theory' and 'model' alongside Dilts et al's because this matter of NLP being purportedly atheoretical and hence somehow beyond the scope of scientific testing or even meta-theoretical analyses recurs in discussions, seminars and texts. Any opinions?
I propose that the references section be one monolithic (sorted) list for the following reasons: it would make redundancy easier to eliminate and it would prevent it in the future, references would be easier to locate and it is conventional practice. flavius 00:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
ere is a list of my recent edits [2]. I've moved the criticism of application to underneath each application to make it easier to read. This section can be cut down alot and the tabloid journalism removed. -- Comaze 23:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze and all the other fanatics, (especially FT2). Adding little bits and pieces of non-criticism to the criticism section (actually they are rather large and leading the article towards the 100kb mark) in order to negate it somehow is completely transparently biased behaviour. You will simply get reverted doing so. Presently, the article is in the process of re-organization (within each respective section) and as such, we could do without all the sneaking around deleting conclusive criticisms and replacing them with brainless rambles from NLP excuse literature. Cited or not, those sort of dodgy edits will be booted off the article by me or anyone else with a brain. Just keep it in line with clarification, rather than deleting criticism, or muddying and clouding issues. I am not just picking on you Comaze (though you have spent months sneaking around like this). This also applies to the other desperately unconvincing NLP fanatics. DaveRight 03:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I have created a new criticism subsection titles 'Atheoretical Pretence' and I renamed the 'Overview' section 'NLP and Theory'. I removed the critical remark to the criticism section. Any feedback appreciated. flavius 06:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello Flavius Vanillus and all. I am mostly happy to tidy up (I think its time now most of the waring is over). I think the Atheoretical Pretence section is fine and above board as long as it remains in the criticisms section (it is a criticism after all). Keep up the clarity! Camridge 06:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the subsections titled 'Goals' and 'View on Cognitive Understanding of Problems' (?). These were terribly written, redundant and lacked cohesion. I can add something about the problem insight. The NLP position can be stated in a sentence. I also trimmed down the presuppositions section. I'm still not happy with it. I also removed the reference some obscure British NLP trainers views on the presuppositions. I think Dilts and DeLozier's views on presuppositions are authoritative since they contributed to their formulation. I added a quote to the Extraordinary Claims section regarding the topic of genius. In light of this quote I think the defensive statement that in effect says "oh no, no one said we can make you an Einstein' should be re,oved. I don't like the list of NLP techniques. It's awful. It should be replaced by a succinct description of a few representative techniques. The Milton/Meta model section is also terrible. I'll rewrite it. At the risk of sounding provincial I get the impression that much of the prose that is awful was authored by those for which English is not a first language -- it reads like 'broken English'. Comaze and FT2 is English your first language? flavius 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
mmmm!
Comaze. I am just wondering what it would look like if you went through and "copyedited" the article. Somehow I think it would need some further adjustments:) I'm not psychic, I just have a powerful intuition about these matters! HeadleyDown 11:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. I decided to get more active and I added some lit by Yves Winkin, a world class anthropologist from the Sorbonne in France. He seems to be a highly quotable source. Camridge 03:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi All, there appears to be an arbitration page open for this article with space for requests and decisions. Are all involved editors aware of this?
Hello VoiceOfAll. The author is well published, but some of the statements are misplaced according to agreement. I can find better places for them in addition to NPOVing. HeadleyDown 03:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello VoiceOfAll and Comaze. I reviewed some of the edits that Comaze is troubled by, namely, Cults and Winkin. The cults section I have to admit is tenuous. The only notable author cited is Singer. 'Vexen Crabtree' is a 'Punk/Goth' guy with a self-indulgent web site. I'm sure Vexen is a nice chap and he has his fashion worked out (judging by the images on his website) but I don't think his opinion counts for much. Also, the Watchman Expositor site is written from a an ultra orthodox Protestant/Baptist view. Any doctrine that isn't based on a literalist Biblical interpretation is deemed suspect by this group, including the two seminal branches of Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism). I have no problem with the cults section being trimmed down to only include Singers view until further (credible) views are sourced on this topic. I also read Camridge's edit based on Winkin and they look good, i.e. well sourced, but perhaps truncated. Expanding Winkin's position such that reasons are provided would eliminate the appearance of 'bad faith'. My concern though is that Comaze would then object to the coverage given to Winkin's view. This -- I think -- would indicate bad faith on Comaze's part. flavius 06:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this sentence accurately reflects Fritz Perls' involvement with Dianetics:
I can't find any other source indicating that Perls "promoted and operated a Dianetics clinic" at all, let alone in the late 1960s, and I question whether that statement is a fair representation of Clarkson and Mackewn.
I do not have a copy of that book, but neither the full-text search feature provided by Google ( http://print.google.com/print?hl=en&id=dzB8lFoyH8sC) nor the one provided by Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0803984537) yield any results when searching on "Dianetics".
Perls did investigate Dianetics from 1949-50. He wrote the introduction to Winter's 1951 "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics". However, by that time, he had already come to conclusions that would seem to preclude him taking Dianetics up again in the last years of his life.
(from http://www.xenu.net/archive/fifties/e510000.htm -- note: not a neutral site)
Considering how much critical material on Dianetics and Scientology is published on the Internet, I would expect to find many more references affirming Perls' alleged re-involvement in his later years.
In any case, I would like to suggest that this sentence, in the absence of more solid evidence, be struck from the article or otherwise edited to avoid misrepresenting Perls' investigations into Dianetics. For that matter, I fail to see how that sentence or the following portion of the paragraph that it appears in sheds any light on the nature of NLP.
I would be glad to work on this edit myself, but I'm not sure how -- aside from posting this section to "talk". I am a wikipedia newbie! Thanks. Shunpiker 19:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Dianetics was actually still in vogue during the 60s (or at least, some therapists (especially gestalt) still considered it a reasonable technique) and the gestalt theory of memory is pretty much identical to that of dianetics. Perls actually ran a dianetics clinic during the 50s and 60s, but he also introduced wierd new age zen ideas of awareness that he had picked up on his travels. Perl's dianetics background sheds a great deal of light on NLP. Firstly, they are both extremely similar in principle and form. They both use command hypnotics, Korzybsky's map territory, engrams, trauma change, belief in unlimited potential, use of metaphor, the use of ritual, they are both psuedoscientific and are often classified together according to many scientists, and the financial success of dianetics/scientology was a powerful motivator for all the more recent LGAT cults of the 70s 80s and 90s such as NLP, Tony Robbins, Landmark Forum, EST and so on. Basically most people who saw the beginning and end of the dianetics trend in psychotherapy tends to see NLP in the same light. A lot of the books and papers criticising NLP or classifying it as a fringe therapy also talks of dianetics in the same sense (pseudoscientific, scientifically unsupported). However, there is some evidence that places dianetics as less ineffective than NLP on the whole (stronger placebo effects with client/auditor). Anyway, the fact that Perls actively promoted and practiced dianetics is reason enough to place the fact in the article background. Regards HeadleyDown 06:06, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley, I understand that you believe that Perls promoted Dianetics and ran a Dianetics clinic, but what I'm looking for is documentation of those allegations.
As mentioned above, the footnote in the article (Clarkson and Mackewn, 1993) appears to be spurious. Furthermore there is documentation that Perls investigated Dianetics in 1949-1950, but publicly concluded that no "intelligent person" could or should practice it -- a rather peculiar form of advocacy, don't you think?
Since Perls was one of the "models" for NLP, he belongs in the article, but painting him as a Dianetics zealot doesn't fit with the facts, at least as I can discern or document them. If you can back up your assertions about Perls and Dianetics, please do so. I would definitely want to know if they were true, and the article would benefit from the substantiation. If those allegations can't be substantiated, however, I sustain that they do not belong.
Thanks, Shunpiker 08:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Shunpiker. Don't take Perl's comments individually. He was quite a contrary chap. Look at "Perls" (I can't remember the author), and most other of his biographies. His support of dianetics is documented there. I will provide more sources in time. He wasn't a zealot as such. He included a lot of other wierd new agey kind of ideas in his methods. Anyway, here is just one link I found just from a simple goodle search "Perls, a staunch supporter of dianetics"
http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_1.html. Regards
HeadleyDown
16:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley,
Upon further investigation it appears to me that the quote I found from the "A Doctor's Report" -- "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." -- comes from J.A. Winter, not from Perls. My mistake. The source I was quoting includes the header "Introduction", but on re-inspection appears to skip over the actual body of the introduction. In any case that quote is attributed to Winter in the Dianetics article.
The Fischer paper calls Perls "a staunch adherent of dianetics", but provides no substantiation for that statement. To the contrary, it proceeds to quote Perls (from his introduction to Winter's book) as criticizing L. Ron Hubbard for the unscientific character of his work -- presumably Dianetics.
Please do find whatever evidence you can to support the link between Perls and Dianetics, but until that evidence is located, should Wikipedia be in the business of repeating the rather serious allegation that Perls advocated and practiced Dianetics? If Wikipedia is going to assert that, shouldn't it be recorded on the pages for Fritz Perls and Dianetics? Currently there is no mention of Dianetics on the Perls page and no mention of Perls on the Dianetics page. It strikes me odd that the NLP article is the only one to make note of this rather significant association.
Yours, Shunpiker 21:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Yo Shunpiker. Serious allegation? Sounds like you really don't like Dianetics! Not biased at all are you? You should read what Tom Cruize says about Scientology. Anyway, from what I read, Perls was against Hubbard going for the religion idea in order to promote his ideas. Perls wanted to do clinical studies on his dianetics practice (with Hubbards funding). It didn't happen. Don't take wikipedia as a source. If this article was only run by the likes of Comaze and the other fanatics, there would be no criticism section at all (or it would end up promoting indirectly). Basically, go and do some library searches. The info is everywhere. DaveRight 02:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi again Shunpiker. Here are some more links. They are direct and indirect. The gestalt psychology ones (a fringe therapy) show that it was influenced by dianetics anyway. Even without Perl's strong implication, gestalt therapy itself is influenced by dianetics. Remember that most of the psychology background of Bandler and co is gestalt.
http://www.sonoma.edu/users/d/daniels/Gestaltsummary.html
http://www.larabell.org/ladder.html
http://co-cornucopia.org.uk/coco/articles/cocother/cocoth2.html
http://www.pacificnet.net/~cmoore/ghill/esalen2.htm
http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/h/hubbard_l_r.shtml
Whatever, dianetics is everywhere in NLP. Not just in theory, but in practice. I'm not suggesting that you join or become an auditor:) but have a delve into auditing and you will see the embryo of NLP.
Here you can see Perls making the same kind of grandiose claims as NLPbrains http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1165
Whatever, Perls was a dianetics fan, and Bandler and Grinder wanted the same fame, adulation, and finances when they developed NLP - thats how EST developed also. History repeats! DaveRight 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Do we have any notable/verifiable sources as per Shunpiker's request? -- Comaze 04:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi everybody,
Thanks to DaveRight for gathering links about Perls and Dianetics and Comaze for clarifying the history of the Perls-Dianetics discussion in this article.
I agree with DaveRight that there is evidence that Perls was influenced by Dianetics. At least one of the links ("Fritz Perls and Gestalt Therapy") is Perls-friendly and says the same.
But influence is relative, and can't be read as uncritical support, nor can it be taken out of the context of other influences. Freud, Jung and modern dance are also listed among Perls' influences.
We're left still without proof that Perls can accurately be described as a "Dianetics proponent", or that he at any time operated a Dianetics clinic.
I don't want to get drawn into a debate of the merits or demerits or Dianetics, or of Perls for that matter. But yes, to my sensibility (we all have our biases) accusing Perls of promoting Dianetics and running a Dianetics clinic is serious. It would affect my opinion of him. Because of that, I want to verify whether or not those allegations are true.
I appreciate the efforts of editors on either side of the NLP debate to verify those claims.
Thanks,
Shunpiker
04:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Shunpiker. I think framing some parts of the article may be in order. Certainly, gestalt therapy itself is not maintream at all. Freud and Jung include so much pseudoscience it is sometimes difficult to work out what has support and what doesn't, but the fact remains, NLP has used as many dubious sources as possible to form its rather conveniently saleable sets of notions. Modern dance just shows how fringe Perls was back in the 60s. From what I read about him, he seems to have spent the majority of his time at Esalen institute cavorting around naked, and smoking pot. I think anyone who has read a biography about Perls would come to the conclusion that he was surrounded by crackpots the whole time, and he himself did so many odd things in his life that made him somehow charismatic. The NLP lot could use any part of his life to claim all kinds of renegade magic. That is primarily what NLP is about: Inflated claims, but no delivery (according to scientific testing). They built NLP on a set of myths, and supported it with more popular myths as time went by, simply to create salespitch. Camridge 04:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few dispute tags to mark statments questioned by Shunpiker until we can verify the claims from reputable sources. The tags were removed :( -- Comaze 07:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, you seem to be very ready with those dubious tags. I noticed your use of tags to advocate the removal of multiple cited sources and even the removal of alleged sockpuppets. I will remove them on principle. According to your definition of dubious, NLP itself should have a dubious tag. Camridge 05:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Oi Comaze. If you are looking for on topic, accurate, objective, authoritative etc, then why the hell do you keep deleting the new age label? It is all of those things, and most of all, it is a scholarly label. I think maybe you are just pretending to be neutral:) Or could I possibly be wrong? DaveRight 03:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I know of at least one credible source that mentions Perls as an advocate of Dianetics: 'A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientlogy, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed' by Jon Atack. According to Atack, "Fritz Perls, founder of Gestalt therapy, defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetic counselling." (Ch. 2, [8]) flavius 03:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Can someone retrieve the following, it's a prmary source:
Title Fritz Perls / Petruska Clarkson, Jennifer Mackewn. Publisher London : Sage, 1993- and - Naranjo, Claudio. Gestalt therapy : the attitude & practice of an atheoretical experientialism / Claudio Naranjo. Publisher Carmarthen : Crown House Pub., 2000. Camridge 05:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi folks,
Thanks to Camridge (that was you, right?) for editing out the most egregious of the unsubstantiated statements about Perls -- that he operated a Dianetics clinic in the late 60s.
As was already mentioned in this discussion, the Clarkson and Mackewn book cannot be a source for any connection between Perls and Dianetics -- since it doesn't even contain the word "Dianetics". Again, both Google and Amazon offer the ability to search the complete text:
I am removing the footnote. If you can find any reason to reinstate it besides the fact that it once was part of this article, please speak up.
I am moving the other links so that they do not give the false impression of substantiating the proposition that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.
The link to "Hubbard's Ladder" is the source for the following sentence about Hubbard's methodology providing "raw material" for Perls. It belongs with that sentence.
The link to "Co-counselling as Therapy" says that Perls was "influenced by the ideas and practice of Dianetics". This doesn't establish that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics, but it does indicate that it had his "attention". I'll move the link there.
The link in German probably doesn't belong unless someone is going to quote the relevant passage, translate it, and explain its relevance. As far as I can tell, it says that Perls was audited at some point by Hubbard. Since that assertion doesn't appear in the article, it should probably be removed. For now, I'll group it under "attention" with the previous link.
As for the other material which has been cited in "talk":
Flavius quotes, "A Piece of Blue Sky" where the author says that Perls "defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetics counseling". This indicates that Perls had interest in Dianetics' beginnings. It doesn't establish a lasting influence, an interest in Dianetics as it evolved or that he practiced Dianetics. It doesn't show that he promoted Dianetics.
However -- it's the most clear citation to come to light yet that shows Perls taking a positive (although not uncritical) and public action in regards to Hubbard's work. Thanks, Flavius. How about instead of paraphrasing this or other unspecified sources, simply citing it directly?
The web-available excerpt from "A Doctor's Report...", on the other hand, is more critical than supportive of Dianetics. Consider Winter's conclusion: "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." Or the part quoted by Fischer where Perls accuses Hubbard of mixing "science and fiction" and of "unsubstatiated claims". If parts of that book which do not appear on the web imply something else, by all means cite them with the same precision with which Flavius quoted "A Piece of Blue Sky". The part that we have is, after all, taken from an anti-Scientology site.
I would love to see a citation from Naranjo's book illustrating Perls' relationship to Dianetics.
Thanks for your continuing efforts. Shunpiker 09:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Just out of interest, here are some revealing insights about gestalt therapy (rather than theory) and dianetics
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/roots-1.html
http://home1.gte.net/wsbainbridge/dl/cultgen.htm
One of Hubbard's closest associates in 1950, Dr. J. A. Winter, acted as a bridge between Scientology and the Gestalt cult (Winter 1951, 1962; Perls et al. 1951). Many psychological exercises in both Gestalt Therapy and Scientology train the patient's attention and awareness in abnormal ways. Both use techniques projecting the patient's consciousness into inanimate objects. Both use Freud's technique of getting patients to recall past traumatic experiences, but both demand extreme emotional involvement and made the patient imagine that the experience is happening now in present time. Through Dr. J. A. Winter and other channels, Scientology and Gestalt borrowed from each other.
http://www.edmaupin.com/somatic/somatic_origins.htm Esalen institute came into play quite a lot with Perl's association with prior pseudosciences. Notice its just up the hill from B and G's uni. This was a big meeting point for Satir, Erickson, BnG and others. Richard Feinman was appalled at the lack of scientific thought in these thinkers when he went to visit. This is more or less the hub of the modern new age.
Considering Perls adhered to dianetics in theory and practice, and gestalt therapy itself has dianetics as a major influence, I see no reason to state Perls as an advocate and promoter within the article, with or without citations. Regards HeadleyDown 10:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi again. I think this gives an interesting perspective (food for thought).
http://www.religion.qc.ca/Fiches/fiche028.htm
It shows the connections between Perl's concepts and dianetics, EST (landmark forum) and other such pseudoscientific organizations/events. I think it puts it in to some perspective. Regards HeadleyDown 10:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, It's been almost a week since I posted the original request for verifiable citations demonstrating that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics. That evidence has not been provided.
Headley, I can see that you believe that Dianetics was a "major" influence on Gestalt Therapy, and that Perls practiced and promoted Dianetics. The problem is that neither you nor anyone else has been able to back up those statements with sources.
There are sources that says Dianetics was an influence on Gestalt Therapy, but they list many other influences and do not give Dianetics pre-eminence. To the contrary, the word "Dianetics "doesn't even appear in at least one book on Perls' life and work (Clarkson and Mackewn), nor do the editors of the entries on Fritz Perls and Gestalt Therapy mention it.
There is one source that says that Perls "defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation)". That is as close as anyone has come to sourcing the assertion that Perls "promoted" Dianetics. If you think it's relevant, you could use that quote. But it's not equivalent to say that he promoted Dianetics, or was a "proponent".
No one has been able to come up with any source for the assertion that Perls practiced Dianetics. Someone -- I think it was Camridge, thanks -- at least edited down the statement from its original form, where it said that Perls operated a Dianetics clinic in the late 60s.
I'm going to give this another day. After that, and in the absence of any emerging evidence, I'm going to feel free to remove the statements that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.
Yours, Shunpiker 19:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. I added criticism of energy as promoted in some NLP texts. Physics does not recognize energy as moving or existing in the positive/negative states that are commonly stated in NLP texts. This is a common new age myth and can be further clarified in the article. It may also be related to other pseudosciences such as energy therapies, EMDR, and other such pseudos. I also noticed there is another common misconception in NLP that considers energy as something that exists out of the body in a kind of aura-chi-directable entity. As far as it has been measured, no energy exists past the skin of the body. I think this also needs a mention somewhere. Camridge 08:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I have expanded the subsection 'Atheoretical Pretence'. In view of Grinder's grandiose amateur philosophising and the NLP mantra about theory that extends right back to the early literature I have brought some results from epistemology and philosophy of science to bear on the matter. Bandler and Grinder have been using Fictionlism (a type of Instrumentalism, which is in turn a type of Antirealism) as an evasive tactic since NLPs inception. B&G make explicit appeals to Fictionalism in their liberal quotations from Vaihinger and in there numerous paraphrasings of Fictionalist doctrine. Hence, the philosophical critiques of Fictionalism (and Instrumentalism) are entirely relevant. For those of you with some understanding of epistemology or an interest in the subject this will hopefully be informative. flavius 14:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, with respect, I don't think anyone here has overlooked that point. The linguistic and clinical hypnosis view both state that the use of mathematical proof is completely inappropriate for explaining NLP. It does' however emphasize the pseudoscientific basis of VAKOG within NLP. That can be emphasized in the article with brief explanation. So, mathematical proofs can be mentioned within the pseudoscience section, and as further criticism for the pseudoscientific nature of NLP. In fact, this may even allow for further connection with other pseudoscientific subjects such as energy therapy. Camridge 05:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
PS. I might add that this kind of mathematical "proof" does also put NLP on a par with astrology and numerology, plus other elements of magic such as in Rosicrucian pseudoscience that also makes use of geometrical and mathematical associations of early astronomy. Camridge 05:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze. You have been working against NPOV with a breathtaking impertinence:o
Now Comaze, you are not being completely honest there are you! I mean, there is something about those months of umpteen criticism deletes a day and even your recent whitewash, that may give the impression you don't really give a toss about wikipeida policy. Or am I just imagining NLP article history and your stated commitment to promoting an exclusively Bandler Grinder viewpoint throughout the article? That commitment is still in evidence today. DaveRight 04:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, I must remind you that your so called qualifications will only establish your purpose to that of antiNPOV. The evidence is clear from the majority of your edits that you are unwilling to balance and only want to remove clarifying facts. Here is a solution: Admit that NLP is postmodern antiscience and stop trying to narrow the views to that of the most obscurantist.
Camridge
06:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Fellas, ladies, and children of all ages, please calm down! I don't want to lock this page, but if I'm given no choice, I will, without hesistation. I emplore you all to be CIVIL, and refrain from using personal attacks (that means all of you...). In all honesty, some editors are acting childish, and if need be, an RfC can and will be filed, so please just relax and stay cool. Might a wikibreak help anyone? I promise to keep close watch over this thing. - Mys e kurity( have you seen this?) 04:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Myusekurity. No worries, the only person asking for a locked page is Comaze and thats because nobody allows him to cut facts any more. I noticed that people are being a lot more civil since the page is divided more clearly, and any silliness seems to be more humour than anything else. People have made efforts to cut the size of the page, and when people such as Comaze stop pushing to delete important facts, then they can be reduced (the full quotes will be less necessary, and extra supporting evidence will be unnecessary also). Anyway, the page seems to be in better order with better explanations, and certainly my goal is to get the article to below 50kb fairly soon. Cheers Camridge 04:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I think an RfC could be helpful in soliciting the input of people with more diverse interests -- not least of all, those who are disinterested in this topic. Until there is a quorum of editors contributing to the article who are not identified with the either the pro- or anti-NLP positions, I wouldn't expect improvement in the quality of the article or the civility of the discussion around it. Thanks, Shunpiker 05:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
A good test for a neutral editor would be that someone would not be able idenitify from your writing if you are writing for or against a topic. So really, every edit should contain views from all sides. I also want to implement Wikipedia:Footnotes in this article so that other editors can easily check facts. -- Comaze 05:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh change the record Headley you ----------- Krishsingh1066 14:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes. This definitely needs to go to RfC. I know nothing of NLP, but I do know there seems to be a great deal of animosity between users. I feel, whatever your beliefs, labling something a "pseudo-science" is not NPOV, and I will remove that. What would be acceptable, is to state that some consider it to be a pseduo-science, and list quotes and such that support that, as well as others that refute the pseudo-science claim, thus making it NPOV. I honestly think this needs to go to RfC, and if this warring/incivility continues, I will not hesitate to protect the page and block users. Those here are doubly reminded that Sockpuppetry and Meatpuppetry are grounds for immediate blocking, and forbidden from voting and discussion. Any sock or meatpuppet caught will be blocked on sight. - Mys e kurity( have you seen this?) 05:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Flavius. Actually I am Krish (Krishsingh1066@yahoo.com) not HeadleyDown. The material on my site was given to me by another skeptic and I thought it so good I posted it up. Judging by the advances here I have some changes to make:) Someone else is impersonating me, and it looks like someone anti-HeadleyDown. I've been watching this article for a while though I don't have an account. I think its fairly clear that NLP proponents are trying their damnedest to remove criticism. How do you remain so tolerant? I'd be breaking monitors by now! Sincerely 203.198.23.99 01:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Flavius. Yes Comaze posted the label on my page and I am waiting for him to remove it. I think he has posted at least 9 such labels on other nonpromoter's pages. He has always accused without foundation and he continues to do it as you probably have noticed on your own page. He wants you to look like the miscreant, when all you have done is provide clear explanations - lots of work, and all he does is waste people's time. The best thing to do is ignore him. He tries to act all official but in fact he has committed months of flagrant antiNPOV activities. Most of his focus is on nuisance now though. Just try to shrug it off. Bookmain 05:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
While researching for my reply to flavius, I added a whole bunch of citations to the page. While I was doing this I noticed that there is a lack of citations from NLP in the criticism section. It seems that there is a general lack of connection of the criticism to specific aspect of NLP. The "Atheoretic" section in criticism is an excellent counter-example to this. This is the sort of quality I'd like to see throughout the entire document. Wherever possible I have used the earliest references to each fact. Please feel free to check them and provide earlier or more reputable/verifiable/authoratative references when you can find them. -- Comaze 11:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Jolly good show Comaze. Its nice to see you have suddenly stopped deleting facts after all. I wonder how long you can keep this up! DaveRight 03:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Listen Comaze, there is no way you are going to get away without someone pointing out your uncooperative behaviour. You have demanded so much, but you continue to deny the facts. These are not personal attacks. Truly the only personal attacks are the ones made by the promoters you work with towards nonpromotional editors, and I will repeat what the mediator VoiceOfAll has stated about you; "YOUR BEHAVIOUR IS TEDIOUS AND UNPRODUCTIVE". Camridge 03:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, look, judging by your history, I believe you are never going to cooperate. So whenever you ask tedious or uncooperative questions I will simply point out what you are doing for the sake of other editors who may be under the false impression that you are trying to do something constructive. Other people are carefully pointing out what you are trying to do, and that is a constructive thing to do, because it will lead to a better understanding of your nuisance. These pointers are not attacks, but they show exactly where the hazards are on this discussion article in order to facilitate constant forward movement. ----- I noticed you have just posted something irelevant on the article about someone in the 70s saying NLP is worthy. That is completely out of date and irrelevant to the opening, so I will remove it.
Camridge
04:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi VoiceOFAll. I've been lurking for ages, even before HeadleyDown turned up. I started writing a report on NLP for my Master degree, and got swept up with the discussion. Why? Do you want to post a meatpuppet label on my personal page together with Comaze's many unreasonable objections? Camridge 04:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
There has been great speculation as to whether or not two or three users are alike or the same. While writing styles are very similar, I do not believe we are dealing with sockpuppets, but only meatpuppets (See their respective pages). What we mostly have here are users pushing their POV and getting friends involved, so nothing illegal, just not very nice. I honestly think this could use an RfC, as this page just seems to be serving as a smack-talking battlegroun. - Mys e kurity( have you seen this?) 02:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I concur. The NLPpromoters are all self admittedly registered or trained NLPers. They all have an agenda to delete facts about NLP. Not just criticisms, but facts about NLP's occult/new aga/pop psychology/pseudoscience characteristics. Considering they are all part of the same small circle of pseudoscientists, I would say they most definitely fit the bill for meatpuppetry. Furthermore, they all ganged up to vote for mediation (though they were completely unco-operative during mediation) and they all ganged up for arbitration (in order to remove non-promoters). If wikipedia is to be consistent in this matter, they should be very wary in the face of such persistent pressure for restriction and censorship from such cults.
Bookmain
05:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. NLP uses rituals rather than techniques. Evidence:
Ritual A stylised sequence of activity designed to anchor and elicit a particular state or series of states in the participants, with reference to the leader's beliefs and values. Eg the use of coloured pens, mind mapping and slow music to elicit optimal learning states is a ritual expression of the pattern of learning in all three main representational systems.
here is an excerpt from NLP the new technology of achievement about Robert Dilts
Robert draws them out. He helps them divide their disappointments from their dreams and rekindle what first brought them together. He then assists them in literally separating themselves from old co-dependent patterns and gaining a new sense of wholeness in and for themselves. Finally, he invites them to participate in a healing ritual in which they bring the fullness and you stay there for a long time, perhaps for hours. And that you have your own little rituals (environmental and internal anchors) that can put you back into that state at the snap of a finger. Many 204
There was a good deal of literature posted in the archives on the new age nature of NLP. I cannot be bothered to dig it up just to have Comaze deny it, but it basically said that all the NLP principles are related to the new age concepts, and NLP is marketed under the new age label. NLP IS NEW AGE!
NLP is a quasi-spiritual method as explained by a body of medical practitioners : http://www.canoe.ca/AltmedDictionary/glossary.html
It is completely NPOV acceptable to call NLP new age, ritualistic, and quasi-spiritual. In addition to this, it is totally correct to call it pseudo-scientific with or without citations. The only reason to have citations is to stop overzealous deleters from deleting it. Camridge 04:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Camridge's take on NLPs proper classification. NLP isn't a science and it isn't based on science. NLP isn't an art in that it neither produces aesthetic works (eg. sculpture) nor is it a skill based on a mixture of knowledge (assumptions and falsities don't comprise knowledge) and experience (eg. cookery). It isn't a craft (eg. carpentry) because it doesn't involve manual dexterity. It can't be conceived of as a skill because it doesn't work (the evidence tells us this). If someone claimed that he could fly by flapping his arms we wouldn't deem that person as posessing the skill to fly. It can't be classified as a technology because by definition technology is applied science, it is the application of science to the resolution of practical problems. Since NLP is not based on science it can't be a technology. Is it an epistemology? This question implies an unconventional understanding of the word epistemology. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy that is concerned with the scope, limits, nature and basis of human knowledge. Saying "an epistemology" implies that there are a multitude of epistemologies. There are a multitude of epistemological theories (eg. Realism, Constructivism, Instrumentalism, Idealism, Representationalism) but there is only one epistemology, i.e. the branch of philosophy. So NLP can't be "an epistemology" in the same sense that something can't be "an archeology" (when we say "an archeology of Egypt" we are not referring to some special species of Egyptian archeology we are referring to archeological knowledge pertaining to Egypt). Is there an epistemological theory embedded within NLP? Yes, certainly (see my earlier discussion on this) but this is unremarkable. There is an epistemological theory embedded even in everyday experience (eg. the inductive logic we employ when we say "lemons are sour"). Saying "NLP is an epistemology" is a linguistic trick that enables NLPers to smuggle in specific epistemological theory whilst maintaining the pretence that they "don't do theory" and simultaneously avoiding the need for justification of the details of those specific epistemological theories. Within specific sciences and branches of technology the word "model" has a well-defined meaning even though usage of the term may vary between various disciplines (eg. a structural engineers notion of a model is different from a physicists). Outside of these technical contexts the term model is ambiguous. What exctly does it mean to say that "NLP is a model"? NLP is not predictive. NLP is not concerned with explanation. NLP is not a simulation. NLP does not engage in hypothesis testing (such that it yields limited gerneralisations en route to producing laws). All of the standard understandings of "model" have been exhausted. Hence NLP can't be described as a model. By a process of elimination the only domain of human experience that we have left is religiosity. Tye (1994) argues that NLP produces a "psycho shaman effect" (p.4) which is described as a combination of "cognitive dissonance, placebo effect, and therapist charisma" (p.5). Thus the NLP practitioner/therapist is like a shaman. The aspects of religiosity within NLP extend further than this. It is essentially faith based, tenets are validated in the same way as many religions, namely, with reference solely to subjective experience. NLP promotes the notion of unlimited personal possibility and potential: all that separates me from Albert Einstein (a figure often mentioned but usually misunderstood in NLP literature and seminars) is that we have different "strategies" i.e. sequences of sensory based represnetations. NLP also promotes the idea that all behavior is learnt (this notion is incidentally inconsistent with Chomskyan linguistics). Taken together these two premises form a conception of "human nature" -- this too is a facet of religiosity. The ethical system of the quasi-religion is supplied by the notion of ecology. The techniques of NLP -- having being demonstrated to have no real effect -- comprise ritual and ceremony. Deification is distributed between the "all powerfull unconscious" (the source of all power) and the upper echelons of the training industry pyramid (who as shamans know the secrets of the unconscious). The demons of NLP are suggestions, linguistic ambiguities and embedded commands that threaten to enter our unconscious mind and manifest some harmful reality (see [ [11]]). NLP supplies the incantations and rituals necessary to repel or exorcise these demons. NLP defines sinful behavior: Meta-Model violations or failure to honour the presuppositions attracts censure. The most dramatic ritual is of course the Fast Phobia Cure, this is NLPs equivalent of Christian charismatic healing or perhaps an exorcism. flavius 17:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This page has evolved quite a bit. What things would people still like to see fixed? Voice of All T| @| ESP 05:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks VoiceOfAll. I am quite happy to make clearer, more concise and more organized. Camridge 05:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I put that we...
Actually there could also be more coverage of new age/occult aspects of NLP. Those themes are present throughout NLP literature. So far all we have had is deletions and denials from promoters, despite their presence throughout literature and within the very presuppositions of NLP. It would clarify things immensely especially as NLP is moving more towards those aspects as mainstream therapy shuns it all the more. Camridge 07:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I've moved the criticism of NLP applications to the corresponding application. The next thing I'd like to do is create a section call Ethics or Ecology and move the "unethical use" to a subsection under that. PS. the change was marked as minor, but I don't know if it was minor. Please let me know if there are any objections to this. -- Comaze 00:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the character of the recent spate of edits. The NPOV policy in connection with psuedoscience states that, "If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." The article is losing this balance as the majority (scientific) view is being diluted with the minority view. There is no substantial division of opinion amongst linguists, neurologists, social psychologists, cognitive psychologists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists and philosophers. The majority view within each of these professions is that NLP is pseudoscientific, quasi-religious, cultic, ineffective, without empirical evidence, fraudulent, quackery, obscurantist, theoretically and methodologically flawed, obscurantist and akin to shamanism. This view is not being reflected in the overall balance of the article. The opening description of NLP should reflect the majority (scientific) view -- it doesn't. It should be edited to read "NLP is an agglomeration of disparate principles, techniques and speculations promoted as a means of studying subjective experience, modifying behavior and codifying and reproducing human 'excellence'. NLP is New Age and quasi-religious, incorporating a faith in unlimited human potential, a commitment to empowerment, an antirealist epistemology and a revolutionary pretence". Or words to that effect and of course appropriately cited. This would reflect the majority view. flavius 08:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yus Flafius. Other dictionary definitions include; NLP is a vaguely defined fringe therapy that promotes 10 minute phobia cures; a quasi-spiritual change treatment that deals with past lives; a pseudoscientific self help development in the same mould as dianetics and est. Whenever definitions use 'the study of structure of....' the always say NLP CLAIMS to be. Because the pretence to being a "study" is an outrageous claim, as is the claim to being "THE" study, and of "the STRUCTURE of subjective experience". Whatever structure exists in subjective experience, NLPers have completely missed it to the point that they have never studied it. Your definition above is perfectly clarifying and it most definitely is the scientific explanation of things. The article will get there, especially when clearer explanation is presented in the article. Cheers DaveRight 02:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Yay VoA. It is indeed a good thing, and there is much rejoicing in this coincidentally merry time of year. I have noticed there is a great deal more explaining to do in science terms, and judging by the summarizing power of editors here, I am sure it can all be done within reasonable file size. Cheers DaveRight 03:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I noticed a couple of bits of sanitization of NLP again. Comaze and another proNLP editor stated that NLP was not used in the same way as Dianetics and that NLP is not used in the field. There is also the convenient changing of the title from engrams (even though engrams are all over the passage) to the memory trace. Lets just take a good look at NLP and start pasting more of the commonly new age concepts back in there without trying to whitewash. It may be objectionable to NLPers who deny that their subject is flakey but it is a fact after all. Camridge 08:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Statement ignored. Brevity and relevance is priority. Camridge 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I've been involved in NLP since 1992, and have trained with both co-founders of the field. I've also interacted with a wide range of the biggest names in the field, and I found little in this entire article which bears any resemblance to what a dictionary definition of what NLP is. There is an entire encyclopedia of NLP written by Robert Dilts, who is perhaps the least controversial figure among the different sides within NLP. It's located here [20]. Whole sections of this article cover things I've never even heard discussed in connection to NLP including the cult activities, etc. As someone who's read 80% of the primary scientific research on NLP, the jury is still out, and the research is relatively thin. Only a few of the main topics have been given any experimental study, and even in the case of eye-accessing cues, which most of the research has been devoted to, some studies say it works, and some don't, and in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory. This article shouldn't be pro-Bander or pro-Grinder, or pro-NLP, or pro-the critics of NLP. It should simply be a factually accurate article which isn't organized for the purpose of bias, and this I'm afraid sadly is.
Hi anonymous. It has been said that NLPers are generally unable to countenance scientific reviews of NLP because they are negative overall. The more recent reviews show that the supporting studies are fatally flawed, and the studies showing NLP is wrong or ineffective are rigorous, well done, and published to a higher standard. Mind myths are quite elusive things, and it is so easy to swallow pleasant concepts of empowerment, but quite hard to face reality sometimes. I understand you are probably up against some very hard facts. Thats life, and if you just keep moving forward you can lose the cumbersome baggage quite easily. There are good rigorous methods and research in clinical psychology, and some very well supported methods such as CBT. Best go and seek out the golden nuggets of fact and lose the NLP dross. You sound well intentioned to me. Best regards
Camridge
03:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. This is not a personal attack, it is advice for reduction of conflict in order the article be further improved. I must point out that Comaze is deliberately stiring up trouble. He has stopped posting sockpuppet labels on editor's pages (though he refuses to remove them), but his strategy now is to find any excuse to accuse editors of making personal attacks on him and makes multiple complaints on multiple personal pages. Comaze has just tried to mix criticism with the above NLP section even though the criticisms were seperated from the NLP claims section in order to reduce conflict. Therefore, Comaze's agenda is to create conflict through antagonism and vexatious litigation. Solution: Remove his objections from your personal pages, ignore his persistent nagging, revert his conflict stiring actions, and just stay cool. Cheers DaveRight 02:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Its good advice Dave. Comaze is as persistently damaging as anyone could be to any editor's state of mind. Lets all just be reasonable, chill out and get on with research/editing. Camridge 03:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This comment from Camridge, "Comaze is as persistently damaging [...] to any editor's state of mind." is the type of comment against me that I have subjected to by (HeadleyDown, AliceDeGrey, JPLogan, DaveRight, D.Right, and group) for months. I posted requests on their talk pages to stop only to be ignored. I'm surpirsed that this continues even after the request for arbitration was accepted. I feel that this group of editors are trying to "own" the article and talk page. I really want this to work so I'm still open to negotiation. Please contact me by private message if you want to discuss privately. -- Comaze 00:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Dave Right,
Please justify your reversion ([ [21]] to my edit to the article, re: Perls and Dianetics.
In the week since I proposed that edit, no one came forth with a verifiable source for the assertion that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.
No one objected when I said I was going forward with the edit, and now that you have reverted it, you have left an insufficent explanation: "the Perls facts are well substantiated both here and on the discussion page". No, they have not been -- so you need to explain yourself.
I understand that you and some of the other editors believe that Dianetics and Perls' work shares any number of characteristics. That may be true. But you can't infer that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics on the basis of that similarity.
It's one thing to play fast and loose with impersonal facts, but its another thing altogether when by doing so, you may be libeling someone. Consider the controversy over John Siegenthaler if you need further evidence of how this can hurt Wikipedia.
I won't be bullied out of a simple correction of fact. Prove that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics, and I'll be happy as -- well -- a clam. Otherwise, let someone who you might not agree with edit the page for once.
Just FYI: I don't have any stake in Perls. It's just that I never heard of him promoting or practicing Dianetics before I came to upon this article and this discussion. And to this day, I still haven't seen that case made anywhere else.
Sincerely, Shunpiker 06:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge,
This isn't about whether *you* see no problem in making arbitrary statements. Wikipedia isn't about what you think or what I think. Your experiences and my experience constitute original research, and Wikipedia forbids that.
Asking the authors of a controversial statement to provide verifiable sources is not censorship. It's Wikipedia's Verifiability policy.
No verifiable source has been produced to demonstrate that Perls 1) promoted or 2) practiced Dianetics. It's not enough to find sources that say that Gestalt Therapy is like Dianetics or that Fritz Perls gave L. Ron Hubbard long back massages in the sauna at Esalen. If you're going to put forward the statement that Perls promoted and practiced Dianetics, you need sources that say just that.
Don't you think it's funny that Wikipedia is the only place on the Internet where these assertions are being made? Don't you think it's funny that even on Wikipedia, they don't appear in the Perls article? Nor in the Dianetics article.
Sincerely, Shunpiker 09:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It may be nitpicking, but shouldn't the assumed roots of Gestalt Therapy be in the appropriate article Gestalt Therapy, instead of ths one? After all, even if we assumed your source to be valid it would be only a derived (via Perls) influence on NLP. Blauregen 09:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Listen guys, NLP developers make the claim to Perls, and there is a reason for that. If you want to remove the fact that he promoted dianetics, I think you are rather removing the background influences of NLP. There are far more links about Perls and NLP and dianetics/Hubbard also. Perhaps I should start putting those in to emphasize the fact! Did you even bother to check the biographies and Gestalt therapy books that state Perls promoted and practiced dianetics? Judging by your pressure towards censorship, it looks like you don't even want to. NLP is so confusing, any explanatory facts such as background can only be helpful. If you never read the fact that Perls was a dianetics fan, then I suggest you have been reading selectively to look for support for your belief in NLP. The fact is clear that Perls supported dianetics. If you want to rephrase it, go ahead. But to me it looks like you just want to remove the fact of the face of the article. Another way to go would be to look at the direct comparison between dianetics and NLP. The list is amazing: Pseudoscientific, Jargon ridden, Korzybski, command hypnotics, general semantics, reluctance to test, trauma removal, unconsciousness misconceptions and engrams, links with EST/Landmark forum, cultlike, faddy and applied to therapy, new age, occult connections, human potential movement, past lives therapy, claims to magic, and many more.
Camridge
10:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
No worries Camridge. They just want it completely deleted. Reversion is perfectly acceptable considering the sources. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the background to NLP and the new age. Some of your above explanations could be turned into a line or two for the article and all within NPOV policey regs. Cheers DaveRight 02:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Not really. While i appreciate your efforts to caution the public about the effectiveness of NLP and most other speech therapies, the fact that Hubbard and Perls may have exchanged ideas, or that Perls may have tested Hubbards ideas simply bears no relevance for an article on the subject of NLP. Even if Perls gestalt therapy would have been strongly influenced by dianetics, it would be something that belongs into the gestalt therapy article, not into the NLP article. Similar, the notion that Hubbard was influenced by Crowleys writings would belong into the dianetics article, not the gestalt therapy article. Further on the NLP founders claim to have 'modeled' the method of Perls communication to his clients, not the theoretical background of gestalt therapy. It is clear that at least Bandler was influenced by it though, given he ran his own gestalt therapy group, however he himself was as far as i know never associated to any practice of dianetics. Nor was Grinder. As for a direct and comprehensive comparision of NLP to dianetics: If you provided one i must have overlooked it. Could you please provide it again? Blauregen 09:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Blauregen. The effort is towards clarification rather than warning. Education is an important aspect of Wikipedia. NLP is classed together with other pseudosciences, especially that of Dianetics. When writing about the background influences of NLP, one must research thoroughly. Its no good looking through NLP books because they will claim Einstein, Alan Turing, Chomsky, Bateson and anyone else who sounds like a great authority figure. And any similarities between NLP theory and those great minds is entirely erroneous and spurious according to the critical and scientific literature. NLP was dreamt up around Esalen institute at the begining of the new new age (when new age became popular). This is the height of the human potential movement and was influenced strongly by Hubbard. It was also a time when people were making a lot of money out of cults. EST, Scientology and so on all made people very rich, and of course, plenty of other pseudo - therapies were cashing in. So BnG put together a set of very inticing candies and easy to swallow pseudoscientific notions, with a belief system and pseudoterminology structure taken straight from Hubbard. Chronologically, philosophically, anthropologically, socially, NLP and dianetics/scientology are inextricably linked. Perls is but one strong link, who followed Hubbard in practice and in principle. Perls was disagreable, deliberately strange, followed (claimed to follow) eastern philosophies such as Buddhism and Zen, practiced dianetics, promoted dianetics, and used all the same pseudoscientific notions of subconscious programming that Hubbard used. I'm sure we only need a line or two to explain this. It is an accurate placing of NLP within 20th century pseudoscientific new age/human potential movement and cult following. It explains to some extent why NLP is so pseudoscientific. Camridge 10:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Take a look at the literature. The use of the engram is abundant within NLP, as you can see by following the references. It is intellectually completely correct to place facts that have been verified, even under mediation as is the case here. In addition, NLP is a new age development that has drawn deeply from the pseudoscience of dianetics as so much of the human potential industry has.
Enneagram is also used within NLP, but that is a different matter. Enneagram is a kind of geometrical pseudoscience similar to biorhythms and astrology. It can be mentioned, but on different sections. Your understanding of the subject is flawed, and I suggest you look further into the development of new age developments of the 60s and 70s. Camridge 07:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your denial borders on delusion. We have links to encyclopedias, NLP proponents, promoters, and NLP authors. Dilts, Bandler, Grinder all use the VAK circuit in the context of the subconscious and the brain. Just like Hubbard. Your objection is as unreasonable as always. Camridge 10:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
PS, concerning Akulkis's rather obtuse edits, I think we can also add some information about enneagrams in the pseudoscience or dubious applications section. Bookmain 09:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Comaze, there are whole books written about NLP and enneagrams. Look them up. Camridge 10:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze there are loads of books on NLP enneagrams [22]. And as you already know, engrams are intrinsic to NLP as stated by Drenth, Levelt, Singleton, Baeart and many others. The only reason you deny now, is because you have another fanatic to support your erroneous thinking. Your bias has indeed been very much noted. DaveRight 01:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
and their opinion was that (I wasn't pursuing a EE degree, nor have I ever claimed such), that I should study Thermo, and that they would not approve my plan of study unless I could provide a valid reason for excluding it. So, as much as I hated the class, and the reasons for it, I took it. And, it seems, it might end up being the most important engineering course (out of approx 80 cr. hours of engineering courses). Now, enough of this nonsense about my education, and your IGNORANT BULLSHIT LIES about the lack of same.
how about you discuss THE SUBJECT OF THE PAGE... Either that, or you put your credentials on the table, and we can discuss those... are you up for that? For example, let's start with YOUR REAL NAME. Akulkis 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
AKulkis. There are many NLPers that use the term engram and Sinclair is only one of them, and all NLPers use the concept. Look up engram in a good neuroscience book. You will notice that NLPers use the concept throughout the literature. Drenth is a professor of psychology and organizational studies. He is an expert on the subject and he is a scientist. His view carries a great deal of weight. NLP is fringe, and science is not. Science gets the weight in wikipedia, especially over pseudoscience. DaveRight 04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, stop with the backtracking. Your attempt to constantly vex editors by making multiple unreasobable requests is quite clearly a nuisance.
Camridge
02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Actually I think we could explain a little, as you were not part of the mediated discussion on engrams beforehand. Engrams are central to NLP. Realise that wikipedia uses science as a priority over pseudoscience. Engram is the most accurate term to describe what NLPers are talking about whenever they mention the "neuro" of NLP. It involves the neural paths of the senses, and of the engram traces in neurology. But that is just the explanation aspect. The fact is, this is corroborated by the use of the engram term by NLP theorists for example, Sinclair, and Hollander. There are not many self admitting theorists in NLP, but those who do talk neurology theory refer to engrams directly according to book refs, article refs, and links. Again, as science is priority and adds a great deal of clarity here, it can only be a benefit to the article. Google searches come up with the term engram and NLP, in all european languages. I suggest you use Google in a more world/encyclopedic way. I understand you are an NLP fan and proponents tend to stick to their own view within the deliberately confusing field of NLP. Wikipedia must take into account all views, but with science over pseudoscience. This is even more important with the obscurantist subject of NLP. The article is moving forward well, becoming more concise and clear, and it is possible to add further facts within reason. But those must be verified facts (adding your own conjecture over scientists confusing engram with enneagram is not a fact, it is just your point of view). Camridge 02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge, look, "engrams" comes with a LOT of negative-"guilt-by-association"-baggage. If you want to write about the term "engrams", then feel free to do so in the APPROPRIATE place...which would be an entry on Dianetics. NOBODY in the NLP community uses the term engram, so what gives YOU the right to import terminology which has not other purpose than to misinform, confuse, and propagandize the reader?
that which doesn't support their own, so as to maintain their quasi-religious belief in Rolfism, Jungism, or whatever other sort of psychobabble-ism they bought into before they were really exposed to ANY data or evidence on which to make such a decision). -- More of Aaron's bluster.
from some LINGUISTS immediately invokes the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, plus the widespread embarassment that results when people outside of the field are producing more significant results than those who have been in it for a lifetime. A friend of mine, Dan Judd, was studying for his PhD in CS at Michigan State University, and in a class on Genetic Algorithms, solved several problems which both the professor, and the text books authors claimed were difficult, and so-far unsolved problems. For solving these problems...was he held in high regard?? HELL NO. He wasn't in the artificial intelligence (AI) community, and for solving one of their problems, which they had failed to solve, they treated him with disdain -- HOW DARE YOU upstage us in our own field of endeavor?!?!!?" Something VERY similar is at work with regards to NLP and the mainstream psych professions.
Comaze, you are placing pseudoscience above science again. Science takes priority. Neuroscience does not include TOTE and TOTE is not used to explain nerve circuits. TOTE etc can briefly be included in the modeling section. Camridge 05:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
AKulkis. You are using the erroneous objection that only Bandler/Grinder/Dilts and other developers are the only primary sources allowable. Primary source does not mean NLP developer, it means any literature that is not second hand opinion. Also, your view of fringe has much to be desired. NLPers views are fringe at best, and your opinion is not relevant to the article. NLP is a deliberately confusing pseudoscientific subject that needs science in order to clarify it. Your attacks and objections are relevant to discussion, and so far they have supported the fact that NLP is a cult. You offer nothing but restricted views and pseudoscientific excuses.
DaveRight
04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis and Comaze. Refer to our mediator, VoiceOFAll's comment that this has been resolved through mediation several times over. You may support the cult of NLP but you will never be able to censor verified fact. Camridge 07:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Please cease and desist from your surreptitious edits.
The addition of your take on the philsopsophy of science to the 'Atheoretical Pretence' section was embarassing. The subsection already stated that science routinely offers laws and models in the absence of explanatory theory and the classical example of Newton's Law was offered. Did you miss this before you added your contribution? You missed the central point of the subsection. Theoretical physicists don't engage in free speculation, their models are evaluated with respect to predictive capacity and/or explanatory capacity. A theoretical physicists models are empirically tested and/or tested to determine if they yield more or better explanations. This is a basic tenet of Fictionalist epistemology. NLP models are neither subject to empirical test and they aren't offered as possessing superior explanatory power over existing models. There is no parallel between the free speculation engaged in by Bandler and Grinder and the activitites of theoretical physicist. Mentioning Feynman is more NLPesque sophistry as per mentioning Einstein, Tesla etc. That sort of garabge won't fool anyone here. It does nothing for the NLP case. If you have a genuine concern about this matter read-on, else note that I reverted your edits because they were junk (detailed explanation follows).
The structure of the argument presented in 'Atheoretical Pretence' is not merely to assert that fictionalism is false. Rather, NLPs fidelity to fictionalism is questioned and the absence of a defence of fictionalism prior to its use is noted. Most physical scientists are epistemologically classified as "Scientific Realists", even theoretical physicists. Fictionalism is not a widespread epistemological basis of method of any established discipline even economics where it had an influential advocate in Milton Friedman. NLP is predicated on fictionalism -- nay a bastardised version of the theory. Even according to Vaihinger (which B&G quote from liberally) the fruits of any 'As If' based inquiry are to be subjected to empirical test. NLP is ostensibly concerned with "what works", hence its fictionalist inquiry must be justified with emprical testing of its findings else its findings are not the product of method but of free speculation. When B&G proposed the "Fast Phobia Cure" which followed a series of "As If" proposals concerning neurology, language, cognition etc. we are nevertheless left with a proposed therapeutic technique that can and should be tested as per other psyhcotherapies. We must test the proposed technique to determine if it is more effective than placebo, and we have established means of undertaking such tests. A fictionalist form of inquiry does not alter the universe such that nonspecific factors in psychotherapy cease to exist or be relevant. NLP undertakes no rigorous empirical test of the claims derived from 'As If' based inquiry. Hence, it pays lip-service only to fictionalism. Economists and theoretical physicists with fictionalist leanings subject their models to stringent testing. Fictionalist economists require predictive power. Theoretical physicists require either predictive power and/or explanatory power. Both the fictionalist economist and physicist employ rigorous empirical tests that are designed to ensure that their results are not due to chance, artifacts of the method of inquiry or other extraneous factors. The NLPer exercises no such discipline. Nonspecific factors in therapuetic intervention are conveniently ignored, the peculiar natural history of specific mental illness is ignored, follow-up is ignored, pre-therapeutic disease states are not objectively determined and neither are therapeutic outcomes. There is only ritual followed by subjective report of well-being.
Thus there is no parallel -- absolutely none -- between the method of inquiry prescribed by some theoretical physicists and the activities of B&G that produced NLP. On this basis I have deleted your edits. flavius 02:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
AKulkis. NLP developers make wild claims and hypothesese. These are tested and turn out to be false according to independent scientific empiricism. Yet NLPers still claim that they work. NLP is a pseudoscience. Your confusion and claim to engineering are both pseudoscientific ploys to attach importance to NLP nonsense. NLP is pseudo in theory (yes they do theorize and hypothesize, though they claim they don't), it is ineffective according to tests, and it is pseudo in excuses. Your excuses are those of a committed pseudoscientist. DaveRight 04:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. The only empirical evidence we have is that the US army ditched NLP as a concept many years ago (in the 80s). The article already shows that the director of that research states that lots of evidence shows that it does not work. We work with facts here, not the hearsay of pseudoscientists. Camridge 09:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
And then describing the different points of view on that topic. Let's discuss the different views from scientists, linguists, NLP developers, etc. I offered a comprimise -- I'll ask again -- is there any objection to renaming the engram section to "neuro in neuro-linguistic programming" and then providing a description of all the major views? I've added dubious tags to the engram section. -- Comaze 02:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
To clarify, Comaze, I will revert to the original name - engrams. Neuro is best covered elsewhere (pseudoscience section especially). Camridge 06:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
...because you have an axe to grind. Enough said.
Well the only person calling it dubious is you, Comaze. It has been verified already according to mediation. Your addition of dubious tags is only ever in accordance with your nasty little agenda to narrow views to bandler and grinder, and to slow down progress towards clarification. I suggest that the automatic removal of your nonsense is the most productive way forward. DaveRight 03:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, please refer to the prior mediation that finished with VoiceOfAll stating that engrams must stay in the article. Evidence for engrams is abundant. You have persistently advocated the removal of verified fact, and you yourself have removed it on multiple occasions regardless of mediation or citation. Everybody realizes exactly how antagonistic, unproductive, tedious, and anti-NPOV policy your activities are. It is clear that your agenda is one of a narrow minded NLP zealot, and your activities go against multiple-view neutrally oriented clarification. You have constantly sought to cloud issues and present the narrowest and most whitewashed version of NLP available. Wikipedia is not a whitewash machine. It is here to clarify and elucidate. Solution: you are to be ignored. DaveRight 04:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, you are the one making persistent and unreasonable objections;
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that a reasonable person will believe that you will not remove facts after arbitration. NO promise you make can ever be trusted. Your background and history has created a severe lack of trust. Your agenda has always been to tediously vex progress on this article. YOU have created your own ridiculous situation through unreasonable demands and actions. In the interests of progress - you are most certainly only here to be ignored. Camridge 05:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge, demanding citations when you and your cohorts make ludicrous claims like your NLP<-->engrams<-->Dianetics connections is not demanding EXCESS citations...seeing how you have yet to provide even ONE citation that holds up under scrutiny by neutral 3rd parties, your claim that we are demanding "excessive" anything is utterly ludicrous. I suggest you leave your little "flat-earth" society and get a clue. 12:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, that makes no difference to me. Your tedious assertion is ignored. Camridge 05:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The wording I inserted was "which some NLP practitioners..." with respect to engrams. enneagram is clearly used way more and the article must reflect that. Engrams are mentioned by two pretty serious authors, but it is likely that that is just their take on NLP. NLP is pretty variant, unorganized, and often unverified, so author's adding in their own concepts is no surprise. As long as engrams aren't overmentioned or made out to be the majority view, then its fine for the article.
I am currently working on a new Magic:The Gathering Wiki, pushing semi-protection, and trying to close AFDs and reverted vandals, so I don't have time for this same issue to re-hash for a forth time. Lets move on. Voice of All T| @| ESP 05:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Good grief, no wonder this article is in trouble when it's being edited by someone so ignorant of the subject that they apparently don't know the difference between "enneagram" and "engram" - which are essentially unrelated, of course. Maybe VOAL should tell us what background knowledge an aeronautics engineer has of NLP?
VoiceOfAll, Your edit did not go far enough. I've reduced the length of the paragraph, diffs. I added a qualifier that states it is not a majority view within NLP based on the lack of citations from authoritative sources. -- Comaze 06:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, VoiceOfAll. Effort towards clarify and brevity are at the forefront of my mind. I would say that Enneagrams are a lesser part of NLP though in comparison with engrams. Engrams are part of every part of NLP according to VAK, VK KAV, and every other aspect of internal engram sense circuits as has been explicitly explained by many NLP proponents, and as is implicitly indicated by all NLP texts according to the neuroscience explanation. Regards Camridge 05:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Camridge, What is VAK, VK, KAV? -- Comaze 06:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, look through Dilts et al 1980. All those pseudomathematical notations are about those 4tuples, and they all explain the same kind of thing as the new diagram in the article. They all explain sense perceptions via engrams. But of course, you know that already, so I should just simply ignore your agenda to confuse and spread ignorance. Camridge 06:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
This IS a joke, isn't it? Another one who can't tell the difference between "enneagrams" and "engrams" and thinks the 4-tuple notations are "pseudo-science"!
1. Neither enneagrams NOR engrams are part of NLP - though it is certainly true that some NLPers dabble in enneagrams as well. But playing hockey and flying airoplanes doesn't mean that you have to be a pilot to play hockey!
2. The 4-tuple notation has nothing to do with science, any more than musical notation on a stave, or notation for ballet dancers, or Pitman's shorthand has anything to do with "pseudo-science". It is simply a form of shorthand which the writer uses to keep track of which perceptual system the writer thinks a client is accessing. Which again has NOTHING TO DO with engrams. It is the ignorance illustrated by comments such as those made by Cambridge which demonstrate the true mentality of the people who keep slagging off NLP and are clearly determined to present a totally unbalanced, highly negative POV. If the administrators of Wikipedia have any genuine concern for the integrity of their site then their action to halt this travesty is LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue.
Hi, mmm whoeverthisis. Read up on some neuroscience. If you are not completely averse to science or proper scientific research (as a lot of NLP fanatics are) you will quickly see that NLP uses the engram concept throughout the literature, including the original magic books. HeadleyDown 15:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze's objection ignored on account of facts being correctly cited, repeatedly verified, scientific, and on account of Comaze's clear determination to antagonize helpful editors, obscure issues and halt/retard progress. Camridge 07:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, NLP is fringe, and you are a fringe devotee. You are minority, and NLP is minority next to science. NLP is pseudoscientific, and pseudoscientists love to namedrop and make associations to neuroscience. Bandler and Grinder and all the others do that. But they don't explain how it fits with neurology, and the excuse is; its not science its epistemology, or technology, or we don't do theory. Those are pseudoscientific assertions and they make articles very unclear. Some NLPers do actually like to do theory. They state that neuro in NLP is explained using the engram concept. Science corroborates part of this theory, and clarifies further (Drenth, Levelt) by stating that they do it psuedoscientifically. The article WILL include engrams as that is a clarification of neuro, plus scienctists and critics view of engrams as explained by modern neuroscience (briefly as it is). That is what was agreed through mediation before, and as I have found over 20 references already to backup the mention of engram in NLP books, websites, and academic papers, then it will remain as the majority (scientific thinking to clarify pseudoscientific thinking) in the article. Camridge 08:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze I am referring to books from library searches in addition to web sources. I tend not to rely on Google's search engine for proof. There is no straw man argument anywhere on this article. The arguments used are strictly adherent to the literature. You have consistently promoted a pseudoscience (NLP) that makes wild claims throughout its promotion, throughout its principles, and throughout its literature. To remove such claims is simply whitewash, censorship, and dishonesty. You have been found guilty of all those anti-NPOV crimes, and the evidence is written all over your history. Camridge 10:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Fine - so where did you read the Dutch text of Drenth's article? Or do you have an English language translation?
PS, Amazon text searches are not satisfactory. A huge percentage of those books do not have searchable texts. Camridge 10:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The problem, Flavius, is that like most of the criticisms of NLP, the sources are either misquoted, or not from genuine authorities. In other words - blatant quote mining. Of the three references you offer, the first does make reference to engrams - but as the term has been used in psychology. There is NO claim that engrams are part of NLP. The second quote is from an author whose book on NLP is self-published and has more mistakes than I've had hot dinners. He offers NO support for his use of engrams within NLP. The third quote is also from a non-authoritative source who gives no support for his use of the term with in NLP. In addition to this - having failed to legitimately place engrams within NLP practice, the self-styled "critics" then claim that the use of engrams within NLP is similar to their use in Scientology. Since you have NO GENUINE EVIDENCE that engrams have ever been part of NLP, how on earth can anyone justify such an opinion?
Like most of the article, this is a pack of lies by a group of people obsessed, for some reason they are unwilling to state openly, with bad mouthing NLP, no matter how many lies and half truths it takes to do it. That the administrators of Wikipedia have allowed this travesty to continue throws the worst possible light on Wikipedia as a source of RELIABLE information.
My comments above provide prima facie evidence of this criticism.
Hi Flavius. I concur, the hologram description is just another way to say engram. The internal sense circuits NLP refers to all throughout their literature (every book to my knowledge) describes the engram concept perfectly. In practice it is the same.
There is no difference between a dianetics auditor telling a preclear to focus on a trauma and remove the sound several times over, and an NLP practitioner telling a client to use their submodalities to remove their trauma in the same way. They are identical and the concepts are the same: pseudoscientific adaptations of scientific terms.
The more scientifically read authors (Such as Sinclair, Hollander, and the French chap) use the term engrams, because engram is a more accurate description (nerve circuits on a holistic rather than micro level). The Hebb rule, that Dilts and others like to mention is correct to some extent, but some of the terms are out of place. And of course, Hebb only ever mentioned his rule in the context of the engram and the brain, not the unconscious/subconscious. Regards HeadleyDown 03:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
We organised an RfC over at the engram article and this was the response... "I found "engram" used in a number of neuroscience journals. A Google search returned mainly references to Scientology (apart from a sports-person named "Engram"), and I think the Scientology use should be kept distinguished from the neuroscience use; the meaning is not the same. The term is not used in the original books about NLP, but it would be accurate to say that some writers about NLP have used the term. A search of usenet:alt.psychology.nlp did produce a very few occasional uses of the term in the very large amount of discussion there. --Enlad 23:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)" -- Comaze 06:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Vote -- Rename the "Engram" section to "Neuro in neuro-linguistic programming" and then provide a paraphrase of all the major views and minor views on this subtopic Provide your vote below:
Comaze, ganging up with meatpuppets is certainly not ok. This has been discussed many times over. Stop your tedious and unconstructive behaviour. Akulkis, just read the archives properly, and read some science for a change. HeadleyDown 02:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis, I made a minor change to the wording of the question after you voted. Changes: providing to provide, and changed description to paraphrase which is more precise. -- Comaze 01:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Our mediator suggests that a poll will only work if we get other wikipedian editors in to vote. Otherwise, it will just be ignored by groups of editors who do not agree with the tally. -- Comaze 05:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your antagonism goes beyond the bounds of reasonable behaviour. Stop or face the consequences! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Engram_Trace_and_NLP_V-K_Circuit.JPG
Well Akulkis if you can offer any clarifying facts with citations that are not the proclamations of pseudoscientists, then perhaps you could be of use. Otherwise your addition of useless and uncited POV excuses will simply be reverted. Camridge 09:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze and Akulkis. Surreptitious changes to the page are generally noticable after a short time, even though they do not show on watchlists and summaries. That sort of "Mr Bean" cunning will backfire every time. Comaze, you are a surreptitious editor. Your lack of success to promote NLP here is due to your blatantly obvious zealous promotion of NLP, and your name has become a beacon for fanatical behaviour. Wikipedia is a neutrally oriented organization of facts. You have been working against Wikipedia on a daily basis. Your agenda is clear. HeadleyDown 02:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
We gave the NLP fanatics a great deal of slack with the allowance of more weight plus primacy. Now I think it is time to give science weight over pseudoscience in the opening and the article, but we can still allow NLP primacy (as is conventional). So NLP should be described as scientists describe it, rather than just how NLPers want to describe it, using primarily scientific descriptions, and then the scientific critics can have their say as is already written. NLP really will take a great deal of clarification. Its such a murky subject. Regards HeadleyDown 15:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Detractors simultaneously WITHIN THE SAME SECTION argue that NLP is pseudoscientific, and at the same time, claim that is successfully used by cults to control those within the cult, and that in the business community, it is used coercively. Exactly how can NLP be used to coerce someone if, by the claims that it is "pseudoscience" it doesn't work. This is equivalent to saying, "guns don't work AND the people who have them are killing people with them." You people (HeadlessDown, DaveWrong, and Camridge) are all over the fucking map. Pick an internally-consistant argument and stick with it.
Akulkis! Ignoring your personal attacks, your illogic is fatally unfounded. If you wish to accept that dianetics is effective in misleading people and that NLP is equally effective, then I agree. If you wish to promote NLP as a technology of achievement, you will feel the weight of several football stadiums full of scientists in white coats with all their bodies of knowledge against you. Not only are you erroneously promoting an ineffective set of rituals, but you are promoting a set of misdirecting new age concepts that are suspended using only a set of dubious pre-socratic pseudoscientific notions. There is hardly any need to answer your nonsense. I cannot see how you can present such a tissue of whoppers without noticing the mass of rational people who ARE laughing at your puny and ridiculous attempts at support. With nothing but Comaze and fanatical rhetoric to shore you up, you look about as sure footed as a rollerskating giraffe. In effect you are gobbing ineffectively into a gale-force wind. HeadleyDown 16:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, loooky looky, over at the Talk:Engram#visual_patterns_stored_in_the_brain page....Someone spews off a bunch of Dianetics/Scientology BS about what the "real" meaning of engram is, and our favorite kook-in-residence, HeadleyDown, is asking the guy for more information, because he says that the D/S explanation is "interesting." Excuse me, HeadlessDown, but this is the EXACT SORT OF PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC nonsense that you claim to be arguing against, and, most interestingly, that is ****NOT***** in NLP. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 23:25:08 UTC 2005
Hello Comaze. Polls are abominable, as the article implies. They are the kneejerk of meatpuppets such as you, Akulkis, and all the other NLP zealots such as FT2, GregA, and co. They are all certified NLP fanatics and should be treated in the same group. You all push psuedoscientific arguments, all use selective editing, and all disrupt by persistent badgering. Your promotional ploys are pathetic. Is fun to watch though:) Keep up the foolish work. DaveRight 04:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis, I understand you can be considered a meatpuppet. Your bias is clear, as is your willingness to attack. I did notice your dissociation with the more "spiritual technologists" though. That's why I mentioned you should try ditching NLP in favour of science for a while. You will be far more persuasive and effective that way. With serious studies to back you up, you will be unbeatable. I could be wrong but you may yet be capable of ditching the sticky pseudoscience of NLP. Cheers DaveRight 04:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
If many outsiders came in, and not brand new accounts either, and voted, polls would work. Otherwise, everyone is just split into the same two groups, so the other side ignores the poll and calls "meatpuppets". We need a more rough concesus, as opposed to tallying. Voice of All T| @| ESP 03:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
-- Comaze 03:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)==To HeadlyDown, Would you consider clean up this article please?== I had a bit of trouble reading the article. I was trying to moving the criticism under introduction section into the criticism haeding. I have not removed any lines from the article. I am sorry if this upsets you. If you feel that the article should not be changed at all, may be you should consider getting this article locked out. From an outsider point of view looking for a quick introduction on NLP and a quick list of pros and cons, I find the present layout quite confusing.-- RichardCLeen 13:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Richard. Sorry if I seemed a little brusque. I am indeed working on cleaning things up. There was an agreement to give NLP more primacy, and the NLPthencriticisms format should stay for now. Clean is indeed what I have planned. I am merging various aspects of applications in order to reduce redundancy and reduce the file size. I'll be only 10-20 minutes. Any suggestions are welcome. Regards. HeadleyDown 13:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
For sure, cleanup is a relevant issue now. There has been so much pressure from NLP wierdos to provide excessive evidence and explanation for the article that cleaning things up took less priority over brevifying and restoring facts that had been unreasonably censored. Now that the conflict is minimal (or at least very easy to deal with) I think a tidy article will be a good goal from now on. Of course, keeping things brief will help. I suggest general deletion of any undue NLP excuses (uncited) or excess promotional verbiage will be a good way to edit. Regards HeadleyDown 13:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see that DaveRight has ONCE AGAIN INCLUDED THE DIANETICS SLANDER AGAINST PERLS. Dave, your side has ALREADY FAILED to produce the slightest bit of evidence that Perls was promoting, or even using Dianetics. You know, you guys are just something else. I'm hardly and expert in this field, and yet, I'm catching you in deliberate lies left, right and center. The Perls/Dianetics reference is being REMOVED ... and it shall STAY THAT WAY until you can produce evidence for your claim.
Akulkis Sat Dec 17 01:39:36 UTC 2005
Akulkis, the fact is well supported. Mediation resulted in it remaining in the article. Your constant removal of fact is bad faith, and shows you to be an NLP zealot bent on censorship. The fact is clear from books on Gestalt, from dianetics books, and from some of his biographies. My recent reversion of your's and Comaze's confounding minor cap edits is due to the fact that it has all been dealt with in the archives. Either discuss and edit using facts and in good faith, or do not edit at all.
HeadleyDown
02:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
HeadlessClown, please explain your revert of changing this:
Back to this:
It is now OBVIOUS that when you say your are "correcting" things, that all you're doing is mass-reverting by just going back to a previous checkpoint, and blindly undoing ALL changes, without even fucking looking at the page -- which is both intellectually and academically dishonest, and indicative that you are NOT interested in cooperating with anyone, but merely here to OWN the page. Sorry, Headless, but if you hate NLP so much, then set up your own webpage, and write all your slanders there. I'll even support putting a link to your scribblings in the links section.
Akulkis
Hello Comaze. I did some checking, and your definition of personal attack is incorrect. Editor's clear description of your extremely biased editing, devious manouvers, and descriptions of your denial of fact is not a personal attack. In addition, Akulkis should simply be blocked from editing wikipedia. Personal attacks using deliberate misrepresentation of usernames, and abundant expletives is completely unacceptable, and has only served to paint NLP promoters as uncooperative anti-NPOV deviants. I have noticed that is a common characteristic of NLP promoters. The trend is clear. RomanX 04:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Bandler is described in the introduction as a mathematician. He has no degree in mathematics and he never worked as a mathematician so in what sense is he a mathematician? Bandler has a BA in psychology and philosophy and an MA is psychology. Unlike Grinder, Bandler never held a job outside of teaching and practicing NLP since his graduation. NLP is all he's ever done. At the time NLP was conceived Bandler can only be described as a "psychology graduate" flavius 15:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Flavius. Maybe you are right. Reports are confusing and sometimes completely erroneous though. Some call him DR Bandler:) Now that's funny! HeadleyDown 16:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I changed "mathematcian" to "psychology graduate". According to Lee Lady Bandler was a linguistics graduate refer [28] [29]. I'll continue investigating this. flavius 04:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Flavius. Unless we can obtain better evidence, we should provide only titles that we know for sure. Bandler's shamanic role is common knowledge. I did hear that he minored in psychology, but he was either a computer scientist or a math nerd. Either way, we need to clarify things regarding his quals. Dr is certainly not one of his qualifications. Bandler is most certainly not a psychologist now. RomanX 04:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with you, Flavius. Roles and titles are important, prior and present. Self help guru, is a term that covers both presently. One important fact that does need briefly explaining more clearly in the main body is that neither of them is a scientist or a psychologist. This could perhaps be placed in the pseudoscience section briefly. This is the view of Singer and Lalich, amongst others. Regards HeadleyDown 08:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello RomanX and welcome. This is a tricky one. BnG allow as many myths about them as people want to create. I think we would need to rely more on recent history to label them. They have made impacts into the self help industry and that seems to have been their greatest contribution (the spread of pseudoscience and mind myths). Salerno gives journalistic coverage of these facts. Really though, in a way NLP is not the product of the originators. It is simply an extension of the new age human potential movement. Hubbard instigated this through prompts from Aleister Crowley, and the occult aspects remain within millenial NLP new age developments. Indeed not a week goes by without some new spiritual technology appearing and most with some association with NLP. I will need some more conclusive evidence in order to make a decision. As people here realise, NLP is deliberately confusing and obscurantic. HeadleyDown 12:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis Sat Dec 17 03:31:25 UTC 2005 Salerno is HIMSELF of dubious authority. A large number of reviewers on Amazon.com cite faulty logic, assertions without evidence, and outright fabrication and mischaracterization. See here: [ for Sham : How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless by Steve Salerno]
Hello Akulkis and Comaze. Having had a good read through both of your many objections, I would consider your efforts a concerted whitewash of NLP. If you wish to edit on this article, I suggest you do a few years of trust recovery first. If you wish to present facts on the article, you would also do well to take a scientific/anthropological/historical perspective. Your current perspective is taken from that of pseudoscience. Sorry, Akulkis and Comaze. You have been rumbled and that is due to your own exposure of your strongly antagonistic agenda. The only way I can see to deal with your misdirecting and unreason is to write briefly that you are in error, or are simply here to cause trouble, and to revert your obscuring of the facts. RomanX 04:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The misrepresentation of criticism is not limited to the Dianetics / engram stuff. The opening line to "Dubious applications" contains this statement ....
Objections:
The rules at most universities state that you should whenever possible cite the original research. Quoting Barrett and NCAHF in this manner is not acceptable. There are many similar examples in the criticism section. Other citations need to be checked for misrepresentation and overgeneralisation. I am not impressed with the accuracy of the current document - both in definitions and criticism of NLP. Can someone neutral please check it and make necessary corrections starting with statements attributed to NCAHF and Dr. Barrett. I am making notes on the various areas with that need a fact and reference check. Normal the fact and reference check team will only go to work on a page that is fairly stable (ie. with no edit wars). If Loma exist and is notable a simple google search could prove the point. At the moment we have no verifiable evidence that Loma exists, or is notable. I think the author was created or a simple error. Unless evidence is found, I will remove all references and statements attributed to Loma 2001. I'll give you until tomorrow and then I'll delete all text attributed to Loma (2001). There is a town in california called: Loma Linda, CA -- Comaze 06:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Metta Bubble. There are many sources who state NLP is dubious, and some of them also call it devious, banal, a cult and so on. I have added their corroborating view to that of NCAFH, who does have weight as a consumer awareness body. It is the view of a significant body of authors. Regards HeadleyDown 03:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello again Metta Bubble. I know if you type various stuff into Google, various magical things happen. However, the NCAFH has been around a while, and has accrued a fair amount of litigation because the US is a highly litigous society. Consider why they would want to class NLP as a dubious therapy. What evidence do they have that NLP is a dubious therapy? I suspect it is because they have the same evidence that is presented on this article; that of empirical science. NLP is pseudoscientific in principle theories, ineffective in practice, and pseudoscientific in excuse. What could be more dubious than claiming your "therapy" is a kind of theraputic magic? NLP was, is, and will continue to be dubious. Reason is important here. If you are disputing that NLP is not a dubious therapy (or that is not the view of some people) then I think you are in the wrong place. Regards HeadleyDown 13:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello not Comaze. I discovered the Loma reference on a scholarly journal Proquest search database. It comes from a scholarly source, and it places NLP as a dubious therapy. I believe this does need more clarification within the article. The science and pseudoscience section can be expanded to explain this fact further. I am not responding to Comaze, but to the reasonable editors who want to see clarity in contrast with Comaz and his desire to obscure the facts. HeadleyDown 13:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley. NLP is clearly supported by as many scientists as not. Even a cursory review of Medline shows this. There is no accord of any kind in the medical or scientific community. Notwithstanding this, it should be made clear in our article that therapuetic applications are only a small part of NLP. Hence criticisms thereof should be scaled down accordingly. NLP is now government accredited in many countries. And so too, NLP has a fascinating history full of controversy. NLP's history should be used to enrich our article, instead of trying to paint a black and white picture. Peace. Metta Bubble 02:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble, we have been through this ad nausium. Refer to the archives, and refer to overviews and reviews of the research. HeadleyDown 03:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Read this and weep, Flavius/Camridge/HeadleyDown/DaveRight....
QUACKWATCH is now officially discredited.
1. Barrett has lost his license, and is under criminal prosecution for the activities carried out under the auspices of Quackwatch. He, and others in the organization have been INDICTED on the following charges:
[[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/smokingoutpaymasters.htm]]
....so, that pretty much wraps up Quackwatch, and all Barret references for lack of credibility.
2 Also, regarding the associated organization, NCAHF -- they were taken over by Barrett, and their website has been taken down.
3. Barrett sued the guy who runs www.quackpotwatch.com for defamation and libel in Pennsylvania court (Barrett's home state). The judge ruled that since the writings about Barrett in Quackpotwatch were true, and therefore failed the legal test for both defamation and libel. Therefore, Quackpotwatch IS a credible source concerning Barret -- so says a judge Pennsylvania who was asked to rule ON THE SPECIFIC ISSUE of whether Quackpotwatch is credible in regards to the content regarding Barrett. So solly! Akulkis 13:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There is strong evidence against your proposal, Blauregen. The website is still in existence, Barrett is still practicing and publishing, and your links do not work. It is still in play. Plus, even if your erroneous assertions were true, the view is corroborated. Sorry, you are the same as Comaze. You now have a history of unreasonable pressure to delete facts. HeadleyDown 15:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I tried to read this article again. I have a few questions. 1) Is NLP useful? 2) Can you make NLP useful? 3) Is NLP dangerous? 4) Can you make NLP not dangerous? 5) If NLP is unscientific, is there any value studying and researching into NLP? -- RichardCLeen 21:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I was trying to ask whether NLP is so dangerous that it should be banned? -- RichardCLeen 12:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh I see. No, NLP is considered potentially dangerous, together with primal scream therapy, and other subjects. It is also considered potentially dangerous in its association with cult activities and LGATS. On of the dangers is that it gives people status without expertise. One case is of LGAT activities of NLP that involve activities that put them into a hyperventilation situation. Another is the use of pseudoscience and breathing, nutrition, "cleansing" and the use of extreme confrontation a la Perls/Farrelly/Bandler/PaulMckenna where litigation has ensued. Clinical psychologists do not want this kind of dubious and potentially traumatic "therapy" to be used within their profession. Your question is totally reasonable. Regards HeadleyDown 12:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
stuck in a pure-carbon-dioxide-atmosphere for 60 seconds, it will be uncomfortable, but there is no lasting damage....as soon as oxygen is re-introduced into the lungs, the organism can resume as if nothing happened. This is NOT true for carbon monoxide. This is why carbon monoxide is dangerous, and carbon dioxide is not.
Yes Flavius. I will do my best to distil your argument down to a line or two to help clearly explain the scholarly views of those scientists/experts in the article. Camridge 08:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The online referenced sources Tippet, Singer, Eisner, Novopashin seem to agree that methods found in NLP are used effectively in various cultlike groups. Shupe & Darnell list NLP in a glossary without referencing it as a cult. None of them refers to NLP as a cult though, and using principles and methods from a discipline does not create equality to it. The contributors may have misread this. Should the sources that aren't available online indeed classify NLP as a cultlike movement it may be helpful to clarify this. Blauregen 12:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Comaze, it is an unknown. You are not here to invent facts. HeadleyDown 03:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your little 1988 (pre-debunking) quote is not at all a counter example. If anything it verifies that NLP has cult characteristics. DaveRight 04:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Blauregen. To my knowledge and notes, there is a significant body of scientists who state NLP is a cult or cult-like. Novopashin regards NLP as a psycho-cult, Singer has explained further that NLP is used by mild and destructive cults, and they do not say that NLP is effective. Singer reiterates that NLP is ineffective. Please feel free to clarify this by rigorous searches of the literature. You will find that there is indeed a significant view that NLP is a cult. Regards HeadleyDown 12:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Blauregen. As you know there is more to the article than what you have cited. You are working against brevity on this article. The source states "amoral psychocult". If you wish to post pseudo-psychological training and so on, you will actually do very little good for your agenda. It still looks like a cult. More specifically a psychocult. And there are further negative points that can be posted. I cannot see how you can benefit any editor, either the NLP zealots, or the editors who are trying to get this article cleaned up and in concise shape. HeadleyDown 02:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello editors. Eisner's (notable?) opinions have been distorted in our article. Should they be removed? We say he thinks NLP is a cult, but in fact he makes no such assertion. On p.158 Eisner says, "Both Sharpley and Elich et al. conclude that NLP is akin to a cult ..." So he's merely citing someone else? Right. Furthermore, a citability issue. Eisner's speciality is law and ethics and he runs a malpractice law firm suing psychotherapists from any and all fields. He makes it clear he would have sued Freud if given the chance. I think we should be really hesitant to use him as an authority on any kind of therapeutic opinion. Peace Metta Bubble 02:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble. Eisner is a fully qualified clinical psychotherapist. He also has the expertise to write books about therapy and conduct legal cases agains malpractice as an expert in psychotherapy. He successfuly holds two professional roles. He also refers to empirical science throughout his literature, and supports the view that NLP is a cult. To remove his view would be to remove clarification.
HeadleyDown
03:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Direct quote from Steven Hassan (p.33 Combating cult mind control, 1988) "[Hassan] studied the foundational models of NLP (Bateson, Satir, Perls). This enabled him to create a model of how people successfully enter and exit from cult mind control ." -- Comaze 04:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a quote from Hassan's new book (2000) called 'Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves'... "Although I am aware of several cult leaders specifically studying Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), I suspect that most cult groups use informal hypnotic techniques to induce trance states. They tend to use what are called "naturalistic" hypnotic techniques. Practicing meditation to shut down thinking, chanting a phrase repetitively for hours, or reciting affirmations are all powerful ways to promote spiritual growth. But they can also be used unethically, as methods for mind control indoctrination." [53] -- Comaze 06:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I was just trying to point out that it can be used by both. Some of the editors do not understand the different between a technology and its uses. The ethical or unethical use of NLP is entirely in the hands of the practitioner. -- Comaze 00:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi All. I noticed that the source
[55] in section cult characteristics lists only one organisation with the Letters 'N','L' and 'P' in this order. The source seems to be largely a list of alleged 'totalitarian sects'. A google search for NLP Rekaunt did not reveal any clarifying information, so i can't decide wether this source is relevant for the article at all. After all wikipedia alone lists 6 articles as a disambiguation for the abbreviation 'NLP'. Could someone who is fluent in the language of the document please verify wether this organisation is in any way connected to neuro-linguistic programming at all? Thanks in advance.
Blauregen
11:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. This article has been supported by months of research by hard working professional researchers. A great deal of extra research was provided because certain NLP promoters demanded inordinate amounts of further evidence. That was provided, and NLP promoters overreated by adding extreme confusion and excuse to the article. This led to a very large article. The effort is to bring the article to a size that is representitive of NLP (a fringe subject that does not deserve more than an article of explanation). This also means that some of the refs have been cut. Just because a view only has one or two references supporting it, that does not mean that those are the only two people in the universe supporting the view. The views of scientists and experts represented in this article are generally cross-corroborating. I, and others who have edited here for a while, have a large collection of evidence to draw upon for supporting the views presented. There is no point in attacking views of scientists and similar experts just because only a few refs support those views. Science gets weight. Rather than waste everybody's time demanding extra explanations, just go and look up the reasoning for the view, learn it, accept it and go and do something useful. If you are here simply to cause trouble, have tantrums, and remove cited facts, just go away and don't come back. That includes you Comaze and Akulkis. HeadleyDown 08:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Metta Bubble. The focus should not be on removing facts. All views should be represented here in due sequence of priority. The views of scientists and significant experts and bodies should be verified and citations provided. If NLP fanatics will stop trying to remove those views perhaps life would be simpler. Right now it seems that in order for the views to be supported, the file size of the article will have to grow. Are you seeking concise editing, or fussy overzealous verification? Regards HeadleyDown 13:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I find it VERY interesting that HeadleyDown insists on the inclusion of disputed anti-NLP references, etc. but at the same time, anything which is NOT anti-NLP which is disputed, he insists must be removed. You're still behaving like hypocrite, and as a person who thinks that this page should personally belong to himself. There are many things which I find distasteful on this page, but they are properly phrase ("it is the opinion of X that Y") as composed to much of what Headley writes ("...X is Z" without acknowledging that the opinion is not universally supported, nor acknowledging that many of the detractors have conflict-of-interest problems with respect to NLP, and especially widespread public understanding of it, and the methods, especially communications and propagands methods, which have developed from it.). Furthermore, it is interesting that he hides behind a pseudonym, especially since even non-experts such as myself have caught him perpetrating numerous lies on this page. At this point, I believe that the only remedy is some method of revoking his editing privileges on the NLP page until such time that he demonstrates the ability to behave in some way other than a religious fanatic Akulkis Sun Dec 18 20:49:23 UTC 2005
but a fake, nevertheless. But, considering how they always pay me money, and all the other guys...the ACTORS who are all part of the conspiracy...how they all like the money they're getting...I think I'll keep doing it....I mean, after all, why should I shut the whole show down NOW...after all these years? Some of those actors who are part of the conspiracy to fool me into thinking I'm in the army...they NEED the paycheck.
army......Flavius, if it were you, would you quit, and throw out all of those actors, some of whom REALLY NEED THE MONEY that they earn playing their various roles in this giant charade to keep me fooled into thinking that I'm in the army when I never was? I mean... well, considering how much money The Conspiracy must have, if they can go to all the expense that they have so far, just to fool a nobody like me into thinking I'm in the army when I'm not...well then....yeah, I guess I'll just pretend like I don't know what they're up to.....I mean, after all, with the economy so lousy here in Detroit, the last thing we need in this area is a couple hundred actors all put out of work at once. Akulkis 04:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
flavius 06:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Your comments today are unhelpful and unproductive as usual. They are all ignored.
HeadleyDown
03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree that a lot of NLPers are quite sloppy with regard to scientific research and a lot of NLP practice is not as effective as it claims to be. However I find that the criticism of cultism in this article borders on sensationalism and tabloid journalism. Therefore I have nominated this article for NPOV. --
Dejakitty
22:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Dejakitty. You seem to wish to remove stated facts of scientists and experts. The view of NLP as a cult is widespread and holds the weight of science and anthropology amongst other expert views. HeadleyDown 03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley. Judging by Dejakitty's "credentials" he/she seems to be a meatpuppet/sockpuppet of Comaze or Akulkis. Don't waste your time. Lets just get on with the clarifications. Metabubble seems to be a little more convincing, but nevertheless has teamed up with a 10 times a day fact deleting certified NLP fanatic (Comaze), and a tourette's ridden pseudoscientist (Akulkis). Either way, their efforts to remove cited fact are as doomed to failure as the last bunch of psychoshaman wannabes. Cheers DaveRight 04:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Nobody is siding with anybody. Let's restore some
civility in this discussion. Ignore the personal remarks, and accept that uncivil behaviour is unfortunately a part of everyday life on wikipedia. Use strikethroughs to remove personal attacks and remarks. We've got an open arbitration evidence page so I suggest that everyone submit their evidence there so we can air our disputes and get on with it. Let's support each other as wikipedians regardless of content disputes. New users are welcome here and sometimes we need to point them in the direction of wikipedia policy so they can understand the wikipedia philosophy, and assume good faith. A reminder that this is not usenet -- we are here to work together and discuss to come to a consensus about what is Neutral point of view. I've sent private messages to people who have engaged in personal attacks against anyone here. I will do whatever it takes to restore civility on this page. --
Comaze
06:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Comaze, nobody is fooled by your whitewash. Though I suspect some find it amusing.
Bookmain
08:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
What do you make of the following remark in Background? Sarcasm? "...because he could not resolve the dispute through the use of NLP."
Also is there any objection to changing the sarcastic "Scientology of Acheivement" image with this one? The question is does anyone have any specific objections to moving the criticism of application to the appropriate section, or to using the second image? I think it is more neutral because it removed the Scientology bias and some of the sarcasm. I think the caption could read, "Don't ask why, ask how" but that can be negotiated. -- Comaze 08:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Blauregen. I am unaquainted with your game metaphors. What is a quakemap? I am neither quaking nor do I use maps for my reality. I prefer views. Metaphors aside, your pressure is towards Comaze's sort of whitewash. And your efforts promise to be as futile as the last set of NLPfans. You cannot remove views that are supported by multiple sources. HeadleyDown 16:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
::This is amazing. Not only has Comaze had to resort to mass slurs on personal pages, but he has tried to doctor images in a way that makes them meaningless. I don't really know Comaze (and really would rather not) but his sort of obsessive censorship behaviour is really freaky and wierdo. You do get some strange people here.
DaveRight
06:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all. Comaze has been trying to provoke people into conflict for months. He has posted unreasonable objections on multiple editors personal pages for months, has made repeat queries to issues that have been dealt with for months, and places criticisms in areas where they will be hard to deal with without conflict. Any provocation from long term antagonist Comaze is best dealt with by reversion, or by deleting his irritation on your personal pages. Keeping conflict to a minimum is important on this article. HeadleyDown 01:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your objections hold no weight. Your agenda is clear from your history (deletion of science and critical facts, persistent harrassment, and general NLP-zealot behaviour). You, and co-antagonists will simply be ignored. Camridge 05:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Strange how all of the unsupported LIES and other erroneous inclusions are come from
HeadleyDown , and
Camridge, but not Comaze. If he's such a liar, then how come it is YOU guys who are doing all of the lying? As stated before, I'm hardly an expert on the subject of NLP, but I've caught BOTH of you red-handed, REPEATEDLY, inserting outright lies (let alone assertions with extremely dubious support) into this page.
Akulkis Tue Dec 20 09:44:16 UTC 2005
Just to help with explanations, I noticed that the sense based notion of human behaviour that NLP uses is extremely convenient (albeit groundless). If the assumption is taken on, then all you need to do to change behaviour is to alter those internal representations. It is perfect for use in cults, and for development of hypochondriach/paranoia ritual development. I noticed this is also connected with NLP assertions that "your mind does not know the difference between real and imagined happenings" and the that this can somehow be transferred to the use of language/magic words, and so on. I suspect that this can be useful as a line of explanation in the pseudoscience section. Any further associated suggetions? Camridge 06:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
For page that does not have conduct issues and significant content disputes then refactoring would be an option. I'm going to go through my lightly refactor my posts in an attempt to stop the circular arguments. I think that detractors would just get in the way. If we were all getting along then we could refactor any off-topic or repeated contentto help us keep the talk page clean, see Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages. Imagine how good this page would be if we had on topic, minimalistic replies :) Now that is a desired future. I am however going to check all my mosts and remove any personal remarks that I have made, if you see any, please let me know. A simple strikethrough can be used to remove personal remarks or attacks made at anyone. I strongly encouage everyone to go through your posts and refactor and remove any personal attacks. On wikipedia, no personal attacks and avoid personal remarks can be used interchangeably. In fact, any personal comments should also be avoided. Personal attacks can and will be removed, and any attack should brought to the attention of the author. Although it is better if someone else removes it for you or somebody else defends you when being attacked. Let's start supporting each other regardless of content disputes. This discussion page is to discuss weight of various points of view with the aim of presenting a neutral point of view. It is not a place for pushing POV or shouting at each other. I'm going to become less involved in the editing of this page while arbitration is open so as to reduce disputes or chance of any new conflicts arising. -- Comaze 09:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
:Yes, Comaze, you go ahead and do some more whitewash, and we can go ahead and ignore you some more.
DaveRight
06:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your intense antagonism and tedious, unconstructive nuisance is once again noted. Camridge 09:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Engram_Trace_and_NLP_Circuit.JPG
Hi Mr um, Mr um... I believe you have missed a few versions of that image already. Indeed it does look better without the brainmatter, but Comaze has been doing far more censorious editing with that and other images. He is into removing important information (check the eye accessing image versions). He removed the information about breathing and head position, I believe because although it is mentioned in core NLP books, it is some of the more obvious twaddle in NLP. HeadleyDown 11:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Not only is Comaze using every sociopathic method he can to cause extra work, conflict, and ungrounded slurs, but he is doing it in an organized way. His cutting of important information on the images presented that comes directly from NLP books is obviously part of his agenda to whitewash NLP, and his multiple revert habit is simply being focused on adjoining supporting articles to this. He cannot get his way with deleting facts, so he focusses more on creating conflict. His activities have been 100% focused towards view-narrowing, fact deleting, anti-NPOV activity, and I strongly believe he should be blocked. Camridge 09:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There are so many misleading statements in the Criticism section, here is another one that can probably be removed entirely...
-- Comaze 22:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Comaze, your effort to supersize the article has been noted. HeadleyDown 03:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello Editors. This article has been correctly marked as a NPOV dispute for many many months. Edit warring occurs daily and many people reach their 3 revert limit regularly. It is a gross show of bad faith to remove the NPOV tag until issues have been resolved. It's a gross show of bad faith to remove these tags at the best of times, yet that this removal occured by editors that are currently under arbitration is even worse. I concur with Dejakitty and many others in the archives that this article needs both cleaning up and a more balanced perspective. The debate on the talk page is a meat factory and will clearly benefit from some strict arbitration impositions. Peace. Metta Bubble 23:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
With the current state of the article i have to agree with Metta Bubble. The tags are restored. Blauregen 14:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Blauregen, vague assertions are unconvincing under the circumstances. Thus, your anti-mediation action is inevitably reverted. HeadleyDown 14:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I can agree regarding the cleanup-tag. The vast amount of disputed points on the talk page show that this article does not conform to NPOV though. Blauregen 15:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I am going to double check some refs. I do warn people though, that may result in concise writing, but also in tons more verification/triangulation of NLP's more harsh critics. That is the history of this article; Editors provide facts, NLP fanatics such as FT2, Metabubble, and Comaze demand more, and more harsh criticism ends up on the article. Wow, we have removed so much also, and that is destined to come back in briefer, punchier form. NLP zealots are their own worst enemy. Cheers DaveRight 05:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello all and Merry Xmas. Its fine to see the struggle against fanatical censorship is succeeding in producing a clear yet concise article at last. I checked the romanised Russian NLP Rekaunt status, and it is indeed classed as a destructive cult due to the occurrance of mass suicides in that NLP group. I can resore the ref concisely. Chiao. AliceDeGrey 06:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Psychopablum is a commonly used word in psychotherapy circles and appears in dictionaries. Someone (I suspect Comaze) keeps deleting the article. I just wish to point this out as a lot of sneaky deletions/image buggery have been going on by NLP fanatics. It is simple enough to restore the highly educational psychopablum article. All facts can be restored, and more are to come. The censorship behaviour of NLP fanatics is pathetically and predictably futile and impotent. Camridge 07:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This article has gotten so much better than before. I dont mind sectional tags, then I know what to look at. But global tags on a long article I keep looking over is a bit bothersome.
A section on the lack of a clear consensus on NLP methods might be useful and has been created. Voice of All T| @| ESP 19:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Sure VoA. That gives me another few things to check over in the lit. Cheers DaveRight 01:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. The neuro concept is used throughout NLP. So I think that could go back into the main theory section. NLP uses the engram concept of neural pathways throught the senses and the brain circuits. Thats an engram according to science and as such should get weight. Also, NLP is new age historically and philosophically. So the section in varying concepts could read; Specific occult application, or something like that. Cheers DaveRight 01:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Just so we know who we are dealing with:
It has come to my attention that Akulkis has been recruiting meatpuppets from the Mindmastery Essentialskills yahoo group. Here is the subject area of the said group:
Amazing Power of REAL Mind Control, ancient teachings, Modern teachings scientifically researched. For YOU to GAIN ADVANTAGES & POWER in Secret, Hidden and Lost disciplines: Mind-Power, Mental Magic, Invisible Body, Miracles, Secret Prayers, Mental Atmosphere, Remote Influence, Mental Suggestion, Psychic Attack, Psychic Self-Defense, Mental Healing, Abundance, Mental Power, Psychotronic Power, Mentation, Subtle Body, Seduction, Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), hypnosis, Self-Hypnosis, Mesmerism, Mind Control, Remote Viewing, Manifestation, Invisibility, Orgone Energy Generators, Time Lines, Brain Waves, Psychic Influence, Astral Travel, Fluidic Body, Mental Plane, Psychic Powers, Mental Influence, Zipping Protection, Energy Healing, Martial Arts, Qi Kong, Remote Viewing Past, Controlling Future, Manifesting, Dream Control, Dream Invader, Cloud Bursting, Magick, Kahuna, Huna, Secret Technologies, Pranic Energy, Psychokinetic Phenomena, Mental Radio, Voodoo, The "God" Spot, Aura Shielding, Meridians, Magnets, Psychic Mind Control, Demons, Psychic Functioning, Prophecy, Black Magick, Precognition, Dream Precognition, Time Distortion, Size Distortion, Auto-Suggestion, White Magick, Brain Training, Pendulum, Depossession, Out-of-Body, Luck, Psychic Laws, Ha Prayer Ritual, Secret Banishing, Mana Charging, Diagnostic Methods, Intuition, ESP Brain Wave Secrets, Distance Influence, Alpha Brain Wave, L-Rods, Guarding Mana, Theta Training, Secret Door to Delta, Accessing the High Self Consciously, Bio-Plasma, Bio-Energy, Psi Secrets, Suggestology, Eyeless Sight, Radionics, Supernatural, Psionics Generators, Evil Eye, Dowsing, Mind Expansion, Levitation, Life Readings, Intercepting Telepathy, Dream Secret School, Pyramid Energy, Radiesthesia, Spiritualism, Spontaneous Telepathy, Telepathic Hypnosis, Thought Power, Odic Force, Orgone Energy, Aura of Energy, Mind Clarity, Subconscious Mind hookup, and much, much more."
Here is Aaron's message to the group (dated 15th Dec):
From: Aaron Kulkis <akulkis@...> Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:31 pm Subject: NLP on Wikipedia akulkis2 Offline Send Email
Morons have polluting the Wikipedia page, trying to link NLP to Dianetics and Scientology, because obviously enneagrams = engrams....(even though nobody in NLP uses the term engram, other than some fringe loser author who absolutely nobody references except for these cranks -- who, it seems, have some financial and/or professional-status motivation to slander the NLP community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming#Engrams_-_enneagr\ ams
It's time to bring some people more knowledgeable than myself into this.
Plus, 10 people can pick apart the arguments of these cranks better than one.
Aaron
According to the NLP article history, Metta Bubble, DejaKitty, and Blauregen joined soon after the message was sent. There were also some anonymous IPs that also joined in the fact deletions and advocacy thereof.
I'm sure Wikipedia has nothing against someone's belief in remote influence, Kahuna sect, or Ha Prayer Rituals, and of course it is a free world mostly and one should not be banned or persecuted for remote viewing, telepathic hypnosis, or pyramid energy development as they wish. However, that background may cause a slight bias towards pseudoscientific thinking.
I will post the appropriate meatpuppet messages. Bookmain 02:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
What a fascinating idea. :) Ok. For the records: I hereby state that i am neither associated with Akulkis, nor with Metta Bubble, DejaKitty or Comaze. In addition. I agree that with Comaze that the current mud-slinging here bears no relevance for the topic of the article. Blauregen 09:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Very predictable Blauregen. The activities of NLP fanatics has always been futile and ultimately insignificant. It doesn't matter what you say. HeadleyDown 10:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble. Your edits are as erroneous as all NLPpromoters have come before you. Your comment "some schools" in ethical concerns is simply your POV. Tell me where in the literature it says "some schools". Your edits follow the same pattern as Comaze's; they are wrong, and they betray a desire to delete facts from the article or change the meaning of those facts. Furthermore, they confirm your appearance as a meatpuppet of Akulkis. Camridge 07:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble. Your actions are completely futile and inappropriate considering you have worked tiresomly towards removing or changing the meaning of facts, and your appearance has been congruent with Akulkis' recruited meatpuppets.
Camridge
07:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Metta Bubble, If you will not discuss this on your own discussion page, then we will discuss on the main NLP discussion page. Your appearance (12th) coincides (within a few days) with Akulkis' appeal for help from more NLP fanatics and he does not have to appeal through public postings. Of course he asked more people for help. He is doing abysmally here on his own. Bookmain 08:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi All.
Since the non-criticism-part of the article seems already either neutral or contains criticism too we can probably get rid of a few subsections of criticism.
Ethical concerns: This subsection does not apply to the article overall. NLP itself as a collection of methods and principles has no ethical dimension. No sane wikipedian would even think about for example editing the article about nuclear physics with a section "Ethical concerns: Physicists in this field were widely criticised for their contribution to the development of nuclear weapons .... " A hypothetical section on NLP-based therapy, NLP-based coaching or NLP-based sales tactics might have an ethical dimension. I suggest to discard this subsection and to place the relevant parts under the appropriate subsections of Applications of NLP again, as it is done for example in the article about hypnosis.
Questionable Applications: Can be completely merged with the Applications part. The new age and occult-nonsense from applications could be extracted together with the cult-references into a new section "New Age and religious connotations of NLP".
Cult Characteristics: Since the large majority of sources only mention the use of techniques from NLP together with techniques from hypnotism and similar areas in cult recruiting, and only solitary sources state the opinion that the promotion of NLP itself has characteristics akin to a cult this seems a little ridiculous. You could as well enter a similar section in the article about chemistry stating it is closely related to terrorism because methods and principles of chemistry are used in the construction of bombs. I propose to add a subsection under Applications instead that mentions this. The opinion that NLP itself has cult characteristics could be either placed under a section "Promotion".
Extraordinary Claims: You get whackos that tell flat lies or phantasize in every kind of sales pitch. This could be summed up under "Promotion" as well.
Pseudoscience/claims to science: Actually there is an article about Pseudoscience. Instead of listing all it's alleged traits here again we can as well leave it at a link to this page and mention that <source> states that NLP is pseudoscientific. And that some proponents of NLP claim a scientific background.
This way we could shorten the article considerably, achieve a proper grouping of criticism to the criticised elements and avoid redundancy.
Any Objections? Blauregen 12:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Blauregen. Any objection. HeadleyDown 12:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC). OK I should explain: Go through the archives. Your suggestions are unreasonable HeadleyDown 12:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
==Gary Phillips
I find the NLP article to essentially pejorative rather than an attempt to define and explain NLP. I have already corrected a few simple errors of fact, but the article needs to be just replaced. It is like an article on evolution written by a creationism - the only point is to destroy the topic, not to explain it. Yes, there are individuals who have taken NLP in the direction of cultism, and there are no doubt some errors and dependence on out dated information. But the article does not address the real positives of NLP. It is essentially anew way of thinking about human competencies, of breaking down fluffy concepts like "thinking" and "excellent performance" into specific sensory based components that can and must be observed in sensory terms and then worked with in verifiable ways. When I can I will assemble a rebuttal to the pseudoscience section, but it does not belong in the article. While not beyond criticism, NLP is a major intellectual contribution to mankind. It is a disservice to wikapedia users not to offer an explanation of it rather than a diatribe against it.