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I have added to section Scientific criticism the critiquue contained in Bradley and Biederman (1985) and that in Tye (1994). I wanted to WikiLink to a description of nonspecific effects but there is no article on this important topic, there is only a redirect to placebo. The placebo effect is merely one of many nonspecific effects of treatment. I may create an article on the topic and link to that. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 05:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I have added the Craft (2001) critique of NLP modeling. Craft's critique is steeped in the lexicon of educational psychology/philosophy so it can be -- dare I say -- abstruse to some so I have paraphrased where I thought necessary and made liberal use of WikiLinks where it was necessary to use the original language or where even my paraphrase wasn't completely clear. I will revisit this (along with the new section) later with a clear head as I am exhausted at the moment (so there may well be typos). AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 16:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Include Carlos Castaneda as inlfuence on NLP. Used McClendon's authoritative history as source here, other sources will be included in other section where Castaneda is referenced. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 06:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I surveyed the academic anthropological and sociological literature vis-a-vis NLP and found that there is sufficient material to justify the description of NLP as quasi-religious. NLPs positioning within the New Age movement appears undisputed amongst social scientists of any note. I am not done with this new section so bear with me. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 09:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Wow, from top to bottom nothing but criticizm of NLP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2C21:3060:C12E:B979:E672:5A39 ( talk) 12:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
In the process of reading the article in its entirety I concluded that it required a succinct (as best as I could manage on the topic) statement of the core of NLP, what it is according to its founders. I think this addition makes the article more informative. I am mindful of complaints from some visitors that they failed to get a grasp of what NLP is from the lead but I don't think that what I have added to the body of the article would work in a lead, it would be far too much detail and trimming it down (reference my attempt at a revised lead) produces dense and incomprehensible text. Subjectivity is intrinsically difficult to write about so some degree of obscurity and verbosity is -- I think -- unavoidable in a textual work. This is partly why NLP proponents suggest that NLP can only be learnt via a seminar where a form of experiential learning can be effected. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 03:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
I have restored some American English spellings in the article except in quotations and book titles. It seems obvious that American English is required in this article as per the MoS principle that articles should be written in the variation of English most closely associated with the subject which NLP clearly is. If anyone wants to make a case otherwise then please do so here. Afterwriting ( talk) 09:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
I don't feel strongly about this issue either way. Afterwriting does make a good point in that the origin and culture of NLP is North American. Most of the books on the subject are from the USA and most of the key figures are from the USA so perhaps USA-English is more "natural". AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 03:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
In the introduction, it says: "NLP serves as an example of pseudoscience for facilitating the teaching of scientific literacy at the professional and university level." None of the three references given: Lum, Lilienfeld et al., and Dunn et al. support this statement. Indeed, the aforementioned authors offer NLP as an example of pseudoscience, but there is no specific mention of NLP being used to teach scientific literacy at the professional or University level. Accordingly, if the correct references cannot be provided, the statement should be removed. Lex.shrapnel ( talk) 04:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
( ←) AP: You've been warned about your civility before. I suggest you bow out of this discussion before an administrator gets brought in.
Lex: AP did have a point about WP:REALNAME—thanks for clarifying that on your user page. We all have our heroes, but unlike mine, yours is a real, live person. :) And to answer your post a couple above, no, this type of behaviour isn't condoned anywhere on Wikipedia. – RobinHood70 talk 18:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
(Lex.shrapnel -- Welcome to the NLP talk page. The quizzing you're getting appears to be typical treatment of those who appear to edit this entry of Wikipedia. htom ( talk) 05:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC) )
I've incorporated the syllabi details I listed above into the lead. More will follow. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 03:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
@ Lex.shrapnel Thank-you for being reasonable. I did (some of) the work. To keep the others happy I added to the citations rather replace the existing ones. I did a search using Google and I couldm't find more such courses but I am confident that there are more to be found. I am trying to find something that will better support the "professional" part of the statement. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 04:38, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
In all of the time that I have been here you have contributed nothing to this page. Absolutely nothing. Most recently you were hassling Snowded about giving you evidence that Bandler and Grinder claimed that NLP is scientific. I gave you pages of such evidence (and I can give you more). Your response was that you had family problems and you won't be able to "digest" this for some weeks. Well many weeks have passed will you now WP:CONCEDE? You are incompetent to edit this article. You have no idea about NLP, its developers or its history yet you've developed this bizarre conceit that you represent its guardian. The description of NLP that I provided in Main components and core concepts is better than anything you could have produced in the entirety of your lifetime. All of your complaints have been answered yet you are still here trying to stir-up conflict. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 02:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
PS:- @ htom Rather than speak in vague generalities can you tell us what you think NLP was and what it has become and can you find a source that corroborates your claim? I haven't encountered any such source nor have I detected any such change directly ("Pure NLP" and "New Code NLP" and their different emphases notwithstanding). I really don't understand what you are complaining about. You can't point to anything specific (because the content of the article is based on the writings, interviews and seminars of Bandler and/or Grinder) so you just express a vague dissatisfaction. Have you considered the possibility that you are incorrect in what you think NLP was? You don't seem to have considered that possibility. You admit that you have a limited reading of NLP texts and on that basis you are prepared to make grand and sweeping pronouncements about some mythical change that NLP has allegedly undergone. Further you are also prepared to criticise other editors for failing to account for this alleged change which you also incongruously categorise as the product of your WP:OR. I suspect that your conception of what NLP originally was is based entirely on your limited knowledge of NLP. More of NLP has been revealed to you in the article and you can't reconcile it with your original conception of NLP so instead of acknowledging that you were ignorant and the article educated you instead you form this strange theory that NLP has undergone some strange mutation since its early days and no NLP writer has recognised it but you have and we are all prejudiced because we don't write about this change even though you can't provide us any sources that document this change. To me this seems to be just a baroque way of dealing with your own ignorance and education in a way that you can deny being ignorant in the first place. It is like me saying "All swans are white" and then when I see a black swan I say "swans have changed, when I said they were all white they were all white but they have since changed so that there are now black swans". AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 09:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC) [discussion from "Teaching Scientific Literacy" moved here] Lex.shrapnel ( talk) 14:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm rereading Frogs ..., Reframing ..., and Trance ..., and will have an answer in a couple of weeks. htom ( talk) 04:11, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Frm the article :
Criticisms go beyond lack of empirical evidence for effectiveness, saying NLP exhibits pseudoscientific characteristics,[19] title,[20]concepts and terminology as well.[21][22] NLP is cited as an example of pseudoscience when teaching scientific literacy at the professional and university level.[23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]
One has to wonder if an article marked for assasination could be reffrenced to death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1zeroate ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Look at this. This editor responsible for the ten ref has a clear bias and little regard for civility. Overkill just to prove a point? To whom? This is wikipedia, your not supposed to be attmpting to make points by seeing who can have the most references. I believe the standard is 3 as being good enough. More supported could of been added as additional reffrences but this 10 inline citation is petty and ugly and need correction. And some limitations on reusing the same reffrence need to be observed. Witkowski is cited as a reference OVER 10 times.
Another problem is the amount of heavy lean toward quakery while at the same time attempting to validate its legitimcy with pubmed numbers and such other qualifiers, the article asks the reader to double think and hold both opposes ideas as true that NLP can be both a theraputic resource as well as quakery that all oppose. The immature contradictions need resolution.
What kind of article is this supposed to be? An informative one that expands an ignorant readers mind to the basic concepts and purpose of NLP
or is this just another article under indefinite protection because someone says so.
Narccisistic personality disorder is a real problem too, always thinking your right? Whoever has to double down on ten refferences or more has a definite problem that is detracting from the potential quality of the article. 1zeroate ( talk) 15:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
So I realize from reading through the rest of the talk page that there's a little bit of a kerfuffle. Just the same, I was wondering how
"Bovbjerg's secular critique of NLP is echoed in the conservative Christian perspective of the New Age as represented by Jeremiah (1995)[144] who argues that, '[t]he ′transformation′ recommended by the founders and leaders of these business seminars [such as NLP] has spiritual implications that a non-Christian or new believer may not recognise. The belief that human beings can change themselves by calling upon the power (or god) within or their own infinite human potential is a contradiction of the Christian view. The Bible says man is a sinner and is saved by God's grace alone.'"
works with WP:Relevance_of_content ? The quoted passage doesn't tell me anything about NLP, and while I'm sure some fellow named Jeremiah is a wealth of information and wonderful person to read should I ever have questions about the modern Christian church, what was quoted amounts to nothing more than an opinion.
NLP has no formal link to religious texts, such as the Bible. No science can serve two masters of thought. Science looks first and only to observable evidence that can predict cause and effect relationships in this world and universe. Science is inductive, meaning observations and experiements lead to the creation of a "law of science".
Religious texts, such as the Bible, as a source of absolute knowledge is deductive meaning the law comes first, then observations are based on what the law says "should be". Jim Smith
The scientific criticism section of this article constitutes about 30% of the article length, but 50% of the intro. I propose cutting the criticism in the lede to two sentences to restore balance. Cla68 ( talk) 00:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
This article is blatantly biased against NLP. This is Wikipedia, not the Skeptic's Dictionary. Are people being skeptical to the point of refusing to acknowledge the possibility it is real, or does someone know it is real and is trying to suppress it? -- Frank Lofaro Jr. ( talk) 15:37, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
This seems a "Straw man" argument. Focussing in Witkowski [16] which is heavily cited in the summary and conveniently free (unlike a number of the both pro and anti references). Bandler has repeatedly described NLP as being "subjective" and `"inherently untestable" (also Witkowski). Witkowski's secondary research focussed on a third party base of data (315 article), from which he selected a subset (i.e. 63 publications on the "Master Journal List of the Institute for Scientific Information in Philadelphia"). He produces both quantitative and qualitative analyses.
It would seem that his analysis demonstrates the poor quality of the database used (and I've not yet found better) and the lack of engagement of the NLP community with the scientific community. Summarising the summary Witkowski confirms at least one of Bandler's claims is true. Presenting NLP as unproven, and not scientifically verified would be balanced - for such a heavy emphasis on being pseudo scientific - the article would need to demonstrate that the NLP community as a whole, or some leading proponents of it, were making it out to be scientific in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluesmany79 ( talk • contribs) 16:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
why are these studies not mentioned: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2296919 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2385721 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1620774 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19505969 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17131608 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21283502 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10263094 this article is clearly extremely biased — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.162.21 ( talk) 17:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Why is the section Neuro-linguistic programming#Scientific evaluation divided into two subsections, "Empirical validity" and "Scientific criticism"? As far as I can tell, these address the same topic (scientific criticism of NLP's lack of empirical validity) and most of the sources are saying essentially the same things. Just looking at the table of contents, a reader is given the false impression that the "Scientific evaluation" section is going to have one subsection talking about evidence for NLP and one subsection talking about evidence against.
If there aren't any objections, I can combine these subsections and also edit for length. Currently, the section is so bloated and meandering as to distract from the bottom line, which is that this is pseudoscience. A lot of the text there can be trimmed and distilled to make this point in a much clearer and more direct way (see e.g. Reverse speech#Rejection by the scientific community). rʨanaɢ ( talk) 03:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I am nominating this article for deletion again. See this page. I am posting this notice here so that all interested parties have an opportunity to either improve this page or contribute to the deletion discussion. Famous dog (c) 14:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I edited a paragraph of the section "NLP as quasi-religion" to remove strong POV while retaining the facts of the matter. It was reverted by Snowded with the comment: Hardly a POV when it reports court decisions. Note that information regarding the court decisions was retained, but the grouping of NLP as a "New Age" practice (along with yoga, meditation and other methods) was clarified to be the view of the plaintiffs - that was not a court decision.
I am restoring this version as it is more accurate and less POV. I will not be editing into a further edit war on this change. -- Chriswaterguy talk 02:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the whole section should be deleted, for the same reasons that a similar section was deleted by me back in 2007. The sources used simply do not properly support what was being said.
The section on "NLP as quasi-religion" was recently added by User:AnotherPseudonym. Compare that with the following edits, all made by the same banned user who was banned for long term abuse of this article, including misuse of sources. The sources used are the same, and the arguments similar:
The new sources that have been added do not appear to be much better, and show the same pattern of misuse of sources that was seen in this article ten year ago. The section should be deleted again now for the same reasons. Enchanter ( talk) 21:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
This
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Please correct :
More recently (circa 1997), Bandler has claimed, "NLP is based on finding out what works and formalizing it. In order to formalize patterns I utilized everything from linguistics to holography...The models that constitute NLP are all formal models based on mathematical, logical principles [sic] such as predicate calculus and the mathematical equations underlying holography."
to :
More recently (circa 1997), Bandler has claimed, "NLP is based on finding out what works and formalizing it. In order to formalize patterns I utilized everything from linguistics to holography...The models that constitute NLP are all formal models based on mathematical, logical principles [sic] such as predicate calculus and the mathematical equations underlying holography."
by removing the [sic] as the spelling of the word principles is correct for this usage.
Thank you, VTRefugee ( talk) 20:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC) VTRefugee VTRefugee ( talk) 20:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
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There were 3 co-founders of NLP - Bandler, Grinder and Frank Pucelik. The latter is often left out of NLP histories as he was asked to leave the group by Bandler. However, Grinder himself in the book "The Origins of Neuro-Linguistic Programming", writes that "The co-editors of this book, Frank Pucelik and John Grinder, were two of the 3 prime movers in the creation of NLP." Grinder also credits Pucelik in a similar way in the book "Whispering in the Wind", St Clair and Grinder, 2001.
Several other contributors to the book also credit Pucelik.
Please therefore add his name to to the co-founders of NLP at the start of the article.
In the section titled "Early Development", the article quotes Stollznow who claims: "Other than Satir, the people they cite as influences did not collaborate with Bandler or Grinder". This is untrue as there is well-documented interaction between the two and Milton Erickson, who was introduced to them by Gregory Bateson. Erickson wrote the preface to Grinder and Bandler's book: "Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H Erickson", writing that the book "is a much better explanation of how I work than I. myself, can give." Stollznow was either mis-informed or has his own reasons for distorting the truth. His research is clearly flawed and unreliable.
Please correct this distortion.
My third point is a little more problematical.
The article states, under the heading "Commercialization and evaluation" , that "Tomasz Witkowski attributes this to a declining interest in the debate as the result of a lack of empirical support for NLP from its proponents".
This statement is dangerously misleading as it depends upon how one defined NLP. It is true that some NLP techniques are little more than smoke and mirrors. Others, however, have stood up to the most rigorous of testing: the core belief that while one's perception is one's reality, two people's "realities" will differ is not only an accepted tenet of psychology, the police have to wrestle with its consequences when witness statements contradict each other. Anchoring in another example of a technique at the core of NLP that, thanks to Pavlov and countless researchers since, is accepted in fields as diverse as psychology, marketing, sports coaching etc.
It would be safer to write that "Many NLP techniques have no empirical support or validation". Otherwise, the section Commercialization and evaluation" is contaminated.
Finally, I appreciate how tough a job it must be to write any article on NLP, not least because there is no common consensus about a definition of NLP among NLP practitioners!
Oliver1957 ( talk) 16:29, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
I've been going through the electronically available citations in this article to further my own research. The Lilienfeld article cited in footnote 100 does not mention NLP. I suggest removing the Lilienfeld article from the footnote because it does not generally nor directly support the asserted statement. (The other citations in footnote 100 are not electronically available, so I cannot speak to their veracity.)
Statement: In fact, in education, NLP has been used as a key example of pseudoscience.[100]
Footnote: See, for example, the following:
Lum.C (2001). Scientific Thinking in Speech and Language Therapy. Psychology Press. p. 16.
ISBN
0-8058-4029-X.
Lilienfeld, Scott O.; Lohr, Jeffrey M.; Morier, Dean (1 July 2001). "The Teaching of Courses in the Science and Pseudoscience of Psychology: Useful Resources". Teaching of Psychology 28 (3): 182–191. doi:10.1207/S15328023TOP2803_03.
Dunn D, Halonen J, Smith R (2008). Teaching Critical Thinking in Psychology. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 12.
ISBN
978-1-4051-7402-2. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Theobfuskate (
talk •
contribs)
03:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Eturk001 ( talk) 02:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee are reviewing the discretionary sanctions topic areas with a view to remove overlapping authorisations, the proposed changes will affect this topic area. Details of the proposal are at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motion: Overlap of Sanctions where your comments are invited. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 20:44, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
"For example, I believe it was very useful that neither one of us were qualified in the field we first went after - psychology and in particular, its therapeutic application; this being one of the conditions which Kuhn identified in his historical study of paradigm shifts," says one of these great pioneers.
"Neither one of us were," one assumes, is staking out ignorance of the English language as a prerequisite for the linguistic side of their revolution.
David Lloyd-Jones ( talk) 07:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
-- Psyus ( talk) 15:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I reworded the first couple of paragraphs to make them clearer and more neutral. The rest of the article needs more of the same. This page is way too ranty for a Wikipedia article. Readers deserve better, and they know it -- they'll abandon the article fast, and find their information about NLP somewhere else. I doubt anyone actually wants that! If I get around to it, I'll restructure the article properly, with the description in the beginning and criticism towards the end. (If you criticize a concept that has not yet been fully presented, it comes across as heckling.) I'm sure NLP's detractors can present their viewpoint far more creditably than they have so far, once the failed attempts are dealt with... RobertPlamondon ( talk) 19:09, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Interesting that my edit to say "The name refers to the connection between neurological processes ("neuro"), language ("linguistic") and behavioral patterns learned through experience ("programming")" was reverted. This statement is 100% non-controversial. Is there anyone alive who would contend that there is no connection between neurology, language, and behavior? Of course there isn't. Learn to pace yourselves, dudes, I'm doing you a favor by making you look more reasoned. RobertPlamondon ( talk) 19:17, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here: Neuro-linguistic programming is referenced as a standard technique to be used in the Army's Civilian Affairs manual, in the section on negotiation (STP 41-38II-OFS, Officer Foundation, Standards II Civil Affairs, (38) Officer’s Manual, April 2004). This may be useful, or not, as a reference or as research material. I read this recently, and came to Wikipedia to find out what NLP is. I still don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.111.71 ( talk) 19:10, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
RobertPlamondon still has a general point though when he says the page is way too ranty. Some of the sourcing is questionable e.g. "The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience." is sourced from a blog post which I think can be pretty safely filed under WP:USERGENERATED. Yes 'Joe Greemfield' (I am guessing this is he - https://causewaycollaborative.com/joe-greenfield/) cites "Clinician's Guide to Evidence Based Practices: Mental Health and the Addictions" - so someone actually needs to go to the source as far I can see. Writing a good, 'balanced' NLP article is going to be a tough collaborative effort, but I don't think it's too much of an assertion to say that we could do better. Maloot ( talk) 08:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I am new to editing Wikipedia but I am a Certified NLP Trainer with over 10 years experience in training and working with individuals. I can therefore speak from personal experience. I do find that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about NLP from those who are less intimately involved and the article in part reflects that. I would like to add: It is a generalisation to assert that NLP is discredited and should be regarded as pseudoscience. This is an example of ‘Universal Quantifier’ addressed by NLP in the Metamodel, and at the very least we should ask ‘which part of NLP specifically’ is being referred to.
Because NLP is concerned with the unique subjective experience of an individual, any attempt to study a group of individuals to produce some sort of aggregate or average response is fatally flawed. Grinder makes this point in ‘Whispering in the Wind’ in discussing academic studies of NLP’s Eye Accessing Cues model.
In therapy, a skilled practitioner of NLP may utilise one of NLP’s well documented techniques, but will finesses and adapt these to make them effective with each individual client. As such, it is not possible to aggregate the results because every individual has been ‘treated’ differently.
NLP has made little effort to understand how it works because it is more concerned with doing things that work than studying why they work. Any scientific quest is regarded as a search for the ‘territory’ and NLP is only concerned with the different ‘maps’ that individuals have made of the ‘territory. The map is not the territory.
The evidence for the effectiveness of NLP is vested ultimately in the individual testimonies of those ordinary people, businessmen, athletes and patients who have whose lives have been changed for the better through competent NLP practitioners.
Some cynicism has been expressed over Bandler and Grinder resolving their differences in the courts, rather than using their NLP skills. In The Structure of Magic Volume 1, Bandler and Grinder explain, ‘Our experience has been that, when people come to us in therapy, they typically come with pain, feeling themselves paralysed, experiencing no choices or freedom of action in their lives. What we have found is not that the world is too limited or that there are no choices, but that these people block themselves from seeing those options and possibilities that are open to them since they are not available in their models of the world.’ In NLP terms, they simply made a choice.
One organisation, INLPTA (International NLP Trainers Association) has published syllabuses and assessment standards for Diploma, Practitioner, Master Practitioner which INLPTA Certified Trainers are required to adhere to. Standards are also published for the training of Trainers and Master Trainers, Coaches and Master Coaches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David B Smallwood ( talk • contribs) 07:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Reply from David B Smallwood. Effectiveness of NLP. If a skilled NLP practitioner works with a client with a phobia, and the client wishes to get rid of that phobia, and afterwards the client no longer has the phobia, then that (in NLP terms) could be because the NLP intervention has worked, or could be because of another unknown reason. Contiguity in time is generally regarded as best evidence - ie the client lost their phobia immediately after the NLP intervention. Where the client does not lose their phobia, NLP would say that the standard Fast Phobia Cure did not on this occasion work. This does not mean that it doesn't work, simply that on this occasion it did not. Richard Bandler said that he was not interested when his students came and told him that NLP had worked, he was only interested when it had not. In other words, the technique or procedure has limitations and it is of great interest to NLP modellers to discover the limitations of their models and how to overcome them. Robert Dilts, the prime developer of NLP since Bandler and Grinder, defines NLP as "What works". By this he means that the model works. when it doesn't, we go back and do more modelling.
Just because one NLP intervention on a particular occasion does not produce the desired result, is no reason to say that any part of NLP does not work. No more than taking two Anadin Plus and failing to get rid of a headache proves that Anadin Plus doesn't work, nor that Western Medicine as a whole is pseudoscience.
I don't know of any parts of NLP that are ineffective. Any aspect of NLP may not work on an occasion. It depends on the state of the client, the state of the practitioner, the rapport between them, the competency of the practitioner to adapt to that individual client's map of the world and if that change is totally ecological for the client. Success may not be replicable for many reasons, all of which return it to NLP's true quest - to model excellence.
In some ways NLP is similar to Theoretical Physics. There is no quest for truth, simply a quest for a set of equations which explain everything we can observe. There is no suggestion by theoretical physicists that they have discovered the truth about the universe, only that they have a set of equations which fit observations. NLP has no quest for any kind of truth about 'reality', it is a quest to understand the map that of each individual has of reality and how to work effectively with that map to help that individual achieve their outcomes. As such, factual errors are irrelevant. Only results matter.
The scientific approach seems to want to understand and validate NLP as if one were studying how to kick football. Evidence of multiple ways of kicking and the resulting flight of the ball can be accumulated and knowledge about how to kick a football deduced. Kicking in exactly the same way will achieve the same result. NLP could be likened to kicking a dog. The outcome of an identical kick is totally unpredictable as it depends on the mood of the dog and the ability of the dog to understand the kicker's intentions. Dogs can generally tell the difference between a deliberate and accidental kick, but not always. No scientific study will ever produce a theory which will predict the result of kicking a dog in a specific way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David B Smallwood ( talk • contribs) 14:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Firstly,NLP has a basis in Philosophy, given that is significant cornerstone is Epistemology (the study of the nature, origin and limits of human knowledge).
I see know similar bias on the page for hypnosis and the two are very strongly linked... Iltaph ( talk) 14:59, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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Under the "Main components and core concepts" section and there is a "Subjectivity. According to Bandler and Grinder:" section. In that section please change the second sentence "These subjective representation of experience are constituted in terms of five senses and language." to "These subjective representations of experience are constituted in terms of five senses and language." for grammatical reasons. The word "representation" should be plural.
Thanks Spitfir23 ( talk) 23:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
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Why is this disambiguated from EST? - David Gerard ( talk) 19:38, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
The pick-up culture relies heavily on these distorted views of human interaction. I will hopefully find time to add to the article, but if it interests anyone else to do so, the Wikipedia article would more closely reflect modern reality if it at least mentioned that the origin of the PUA ethos is rooted in the pseudoscience of "NLP". 173.217.205.130 ( talk) 12:10, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
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New link to PDF document for
Heap. M., (1988) Neurolinguistic programming: An interim verdict. In M. Heap (Ed.) Hypnosis: Current Clinical, Experimental and Forensic Practices. London: Croom Helm, pp. 268–280.
www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/nlp1.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.50.58 ( talk) 11:20, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
David Gerard: RE: This sentence that you reverted. When it's a medical claim, I don't think it matters if it's in WP's voice, otherwise MEDRS would be irrelevant. It would be ok in their voice if it said something like, "Bandler and Grinder claim as well that NLP can treat a number of psychological and physical in a single session." The issue is that it names specific disorders that it supposedly treats, especially because there are so many citations and all of the terms are wikilinked, that part really jumps out at you. I'll ask at WT:MED. —PermStrump (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
why is this article so biased? i was looking for an encyclopedia article not an opinion on the method. i thought there was a places opinions under criticism. this is not at the least scientific. Yasemincakmak ( talk) 17:15, 17 July 2016 (UTC) if wikipedia is a place where there is space only for "accredited" sciences then it is not a encyclopedia for all. i find this greatly disturbing. my trust is shattered. who is to say what is what is not pseudoscience? who are you? and what about those that have been helped by this and those that could be helped that the article is preventing from accessing it. i was with a woman yesterday that after 16 years of dealing with extreme agoraphobia and having tried all the different routes decided to try npl and after 18 months of doing the program she was freed. she credits npl for changing her life. and this is a remark made 30 years after completing it. i feel like the pseudoscience hunters are a bit like christian witch hunters. full of self importance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yasemincakmak ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
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Please add this to the chapter History and conception --> Early development, right at the beginning, before all the other text. I think it is an important part of the early beginnings and it adds to the text already written.
NLP began in the mid of 1960s in California, when scientists started to question earlier developed
psychology. The psychology dealt primarily with
mental disorders and
abnormal behavior. Its aim was primarily to restore the working capacity of the affected people. But scientifically oriented psychology ignored the part of the
human mind that makes us good, powerful and human. Therefore, scientists started to explore what makes people happy, successful and prominent. The result was a
human potential movement. Its aim was to explore and to promote the possibilities that are lying dormant in people.
On the ideas of people like
Abraham Maslow,
Carl Rogers,
Fritz Perls,
Alan Watts,
Viktor Frankl,
Milton Erickson founded this new movement. Many scientists and therapists developed methods and theories that followed this new way of psychology.
One of these scientists was Richard Bandler, a student of computer science and psychology. In 1972 he met with John Grinder, a teacher of linguistics. They both had similar interests and started to work together. First, they looked into speech patterns that people use in different situations and developed a new model of communication. Then they started to explore not only the spoken language but also the non-verbal components of language. By their work they targeted specifically at individuals who stood out in their field. So they contacted the three most successful therapists in the United States, Milton Erickson, who had revolutionized hypnotherapy, Fritz Perls, the inventor of Gestalt therapy, and Virginia Satir, the mother of family therapy, and asked to take part in their therapy sessions.
MarTina ( talk) 20:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
References
There are three characteristics of effective patterning in NLP which sharply distinguish it from behavioral science as it is commonly practiced today. First, for a pattern or generalization regarding human communication to be acceptable or well–formed in NLP, it must include in the description the human agents who are initiating and responding to the pattern being described, their actions, their possible responses. Secondly, the description of the pattern must be represented in sensory grounded terms which are available to the user. This user–oriented constraint on NLP ensures usefulness. We have been continually struck by the tremendous gap between theory and practice in the behavioral sciences — this requirement closes that gap. Notice that since patterns must be represented in sensory grounded terms, available through practice to the user, a pattern will typically have multiple representation — each tailored for the differing sensory capabilities of individual users...Thirdly, NLP includes within its descriptive vocabulary terms which are not directly observable [i.e. representational systems]
The basic elements from which the patterns of human behavior are formed are the perceptual systems through which the members of the species operate on their environment: vision (sight), audition (hearing), kinesthesis (body sensations) and olfaction/gustation (smell/taste). The neurolinguistic programming model presupposes that all of the distinctions we as human beings are able to make concerning our environment (internal and external) and our behavior can be usefully represented in terms of these systems. These perceptual classes constitute the structural parameters of human knowledge. We postulate that all of our ongoing experience can usefully be coded as consisting of some combination of these sensory classes.
#23 The Change Personal History Pattern
#24 The Swish Pattern
#2 Pacing Or Matching Another's Model Of The World
NLP presents specific tools which can be applied effectively in any human interaction. It offers specific techniques by which a practitioner may usefully organize and re–organize his or her subjective experience or the experiences of a client in order to define and subsequently secure any behavioral outcome.
Strategies and representations which typically occur below an individual's level of awareness make up what is often called or referred to as the "unconscious mind."
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Not done for now: Currently, what you've offered, looks like an independent essay - not written in encyclopedic style - that you want inserted into the article. Far too many "peacock" words: "incredible", "young, creative and dedicated", "much more significant", "revolutionized" etc. Some of the sentence structure is quite tortured, as well: "met eleven years older John Grinder", "which aim was to ...". You can reinstate this request by offering a better version suitable for immediate inclusion. —jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 22:45, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Consider the abstract from recent peer-reviewed research as evidence that, while NLP is not a mainstream therapy, it is does not qualify as pseudoscience under the neutrality rule: Zaharia, Reiner, & Schütz (2015) Psychiatria Danubina, Vol 27(4), 2015. pp. 355-363. I won't edit the page yet, but it bears discussing... Bmcdani4 ( talk) 21:11, 19 September 2016 (UTC)bmcdani4
A new editor tried reversing the tone of the article at Methods of neuro-linguistic programming - see Talk:Methods_of_neuro-linguistic_programming#recent_advocacy_edits. I suggested they come here, but reviewing the new claim there may also be useful - David Gerard ( talk) 21:46, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
But NP is basically Suggestion. And Suggestion is a real thing - supported also by wikipedia - so I don't get the extremity of this article to discredit it. Yes, not all of it is true but the BASICS of it, the Suggestion, is obviously a real thing. -- 188.4.150.161 ( talk) 12:50, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
It would appear that the contributors of this page appear to have a professional interest in undermining the usefulness of NLP. Since many psychologist are adopting the practice to help those where talk therapy is not working over long periods of time. Even the articles put forward as evidence against the science do not support what the contributors are claiming. That is, they are falsely and purposefully misleading the reader with links to articles that do not support the claims they made. It would be like linking an article about aliens to a medical journal on high blood pressure.
The page should be returned to its original few posts until which time factual data can be introduced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swanback ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Studies suggest that "confederates mimic the posture and movements of participants and showed that mimicry facilitates the smoothness of interactions and increases liking between interaction partners" Chartrand, T. L., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). The chameleon effect: The perception-behavior link and social interaction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 893–910.. As such the controversial idea of "mirroring and matching" is supported by a relatively high quality and peer reviewed study.
Additional Studies that support the concept of "Rapport": Above source repeated for easy browsing: Chartrand, T. L., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). The chameleon effect: The perception-behavior link and social interaction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 893–910. http://www.spring.org.uk/2009/11/the-chameleon-effect.php Lakin, J.L., Jefferis, V.E., Cheng, C.M. et al. Journal of Nonverbal Behavior (2003) 27: 145. doi:10.1023/A:1025389814290
Mimicry is Over Simplified by NLP: Mirroring a person that is undesirable makes the third person dislike the mimic-er
Kavanagh, L. C., Suhler, C. L., Churchland, P. S., & Winkielman, P. (2011). When it’s an error to mirror: The surprising reputational costs of mimicry. Psychological science, 22(10), 1274-1276.
First published date: September-15-2011
Based on the above sources and marketing psychology the Rapport section of NLP may not be off-base. If these studies are quality they lend support to the basic mirroring/matching concept of Rapport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Watson2.0 ( talk • contribs) 05:00, 28 February 2017 Watson2.0 ( talk) 06:48, 28 February 2017 (UTC)Watson2.0
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Please consider changing footnote 98 from:
See, for example, the following:
To:
See, for example, the following:
Rationale: The Lilienfeld article does not mention NLP and is not a relevant citation for: "In fact, in education, NLP has been used as a key example of pseudoscience." I do not have access to the other citations and I cannot speak to their veracity. Eturk001 also found this to be true.
Thank you! Theobfuskate ( talk) 15:40, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I added E-Prime to the see also list. @ Snowded: reverted this edit. It's a small thing, but I think E-Prime is very appropriate for the see also section, as it also uses specific linguistic techniques for a purported therapeutic benefit. (See E-Prime#Influence in psychotherapy) There are also claims that Neuro-linguistic programming uses E-Prime as a technique and that NLP's theoretical basis relies heavily on the work of Korzybski and Bourland, developers of E-Prime. [1]
The Wikipedia Manual of Style says that the see also section should include "topics similar to that discussed in the article" [2] I apologize for ignoring the MOS guidance that "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent" [3] Do others have suggestions what an appropriate annotation might be? Sondra.kinsey ( talk) 16:50, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
References
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This part is missing in the article and I want to add the main and important thing to it
In essence, all of NLP is founded on two fundamental presuppositions:
• The Map is Not the Territory. As human beings, we can never know reality. We can only know our perceptions of reality. We experience and respond to the world around us primarily through our senses. It is our 'neuro-linguistic' maps of reality that determine how we behave and how we create meaning, not reality itself. It is usually not reality that limits us or empowers us, but rather our map of reality.
• Life and 'Mind' are Systemic Processes.
The processes that take place within a human being and between human beings and their environment are systemic. Our bodies, societies, and our universe form an ecology of complex systems and sub-systems all of which interact with and mutually influence each other. It is not possible to completely isolate any part of the system from the rest of the system. Such systems are based on certain 'self-organizing' principles and naturally seek optimal states of balance or homeostasis.
All of the models and techniques of NLP are based on the combination of these two principles. In the belief system of NLP it is not possible for human beings to know objective reality. Wisdom, ethics and ecology do not come from having the one 'correct' map of the world, because human beings would not be capable of making one. Rather, the goal is to create the richest map possible that respects the systemic nature and ecology of ourselves and the world we live in. The people who are most effective are the ones who have a map of the world that allows them to perceive the greatest number of available choices and perspectives. Adnansaram ( talk) 16:22, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
"NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically". This is statement is bias and diminishes the scientific content of the article overall. As an example, Christianity has been "overwhelming discredited scientifically". The same has been said of the work of Galileo and Einstein.
There are millions of users, practitioners and believers in the methods proposed by NLP. People have healed and learned to live a better live using NLP. It is now used in life coaching, and self-help programs
The statement should be modified to reflect a fact from an opinion. Jtllz ( talk) 23:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Pray tell, could you clarify what you mean by the discrediting of Christianity? Its belief system is questionable, but last I checked we had empirical data confirming that this religion exists. Dimadick ( talk) 14:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Edited it to better describe what is discredited.
Hackwrench (
talk)
09:42, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Just because something is not scientific does not mean it's wrong. The false idea that everything real is quantifiable and testable depends in itself on an unquantifiable, untestable premise. It is not scientific, and there is no scientific evidence for it, but there is plenty of experiential evidence for it, and that is proof that it works, at least in their experience. Svend la Rose ( talk) 16:05, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
I do not know how to add in reflist, but all the researches claiming that NLP are not regarding it as science are themselves outdated. I hope that the moderators can have a look to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26609647 or here http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/239625 and inform the Wikipedia readers correctly and shows also what it works in NLP. Another notable research is http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/14733140903225240/abstract and I do not think that only one side of the story should be shown. If that is the case Wikipedia is discrediting itself. Drcz ( talk) 13:30, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Required edit requires sourcing which specifically addresses scientific workings of NLP - efficacy studies aren't proof of discredited claims about the workings of the brain
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"Mixed results" is more accurate than "scientifically discredited."
Did you know that all forms of Psychotherapy have mixed results? Yet not a single one of these list in the first paragraph as being "scientifically discredited". Did you know all forms of surgery have mixed results? If you cheery-picked all the "failures" and put them all together into a "study" you could "discredit" 100% of all western medicine. Because there are rarely silver bullets that work 100% of the time for 100% of the people. And we don't know why, people are very dynamic beings. None the less, there are PLENTY of NLP studies that report success. So should we only look at these and say it's a blinding success? No, we look at both, and you can claim mixed results. That's fair, balanced and accurate. Officially, not even that vernacular should be used, UNLESS you go and change every single other medical procedure first paragraph page as well as being "mixed results." Because that's is 100% honest scientific truth. Darrellx ( talk) 18:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans. |
As has been pointed out before, @ Darrellx: the authors of that meta analysis appear to work for some Romanian company specialising in, yes - you guessed it, NLP. Find me a scientific study supportive of NLP that is not written by an NLP practitioner and I will buy you a beer. Until then, case closed. Famousdog (woof) (grrr) 13:11, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
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Kirin Soo is the youngest NLP Practitioner trained by Dr Richard Bandler during May 2017 in London.Source:
<ref> https://www.facebook.com/nlplifetraining/photos/t.100003379624179/10154439380550458/?type=3&theater<ref> Crypto168 ( talk) 12:35, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 |
I have added to section Scientific criticism the critiquue contained in Bradley and Biederman (1985) and that in Tye (1994). I wanted to WikiLink to a description of nonspecific effects but there is no article on this important topic, there is only a redirect to placebo. The placebo effect is merely one of many nonspecific effects of treatment. I may create an article on the topic and link to that. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 05:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I have added the Craft (2001) critique of NLP modeling. Craft's critique is steeped in the lexicon of educational psychology/philosophy so it can be -- dare I say -- abstruse to some so I have paraphrased where I thought necessary and made liberal use of WikiLinks where it was necessary to use the original language or where even my paraphrase wasn't completely clear. I will revisit this (along with the new section) later with a clear head as I am exhausted at the moment (so there may well be typos). AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 16:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Include Carlos Castaneda as inlfuence on NLP. Used McClendon's authoritative history as source here, other sources will be included in other section where Castaneda is referenced. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 06:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I surveyed the academic anthropological and sociological literature vis-a-vis NLP and found that there is sufficient material to justify the description of NLP as quasi-religious. NLPs positioning within the New Age movement appears undisputed amongst social scientists of any note. I am not done with this new section so bear with me. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 09:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Wow, from top to bottom nothing but criticizm of NLP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2C21:3060:C12E:B979:E672:5A39 ( talk) 12:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
In the process of reading the article in its entirety I concluded that it required a succinct (as best as I could manage on the topic) statement of the core of NLP, what it is according to its founders. I think this addition makes the article more informative. I am mindful of complaints from some visitors that they failed to get a grasp of what NLP is from the lead but I don't think that what I have added to the body of the article would work in a lead, it would be far too much detail and trimming it down (reference my attempt at a revised lead) produces dense and incomprehensible text. Subjectivity is intrinsically difficult to write about so some degree of obscurity and verbosity is -- I think -- unavoidable in a textual work. This is partly why NLP proponents suggest that NLP can only be learnt via a seminar where a form of experiential learning can be effected. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 03:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
I have restored some American English spellings in the article except in quotations and book titles. It seems obvious that American English is required in this article as per the MoS principle that articles should be written in the variation of English most closely associated with the subject which NLP clearly is. If anyone wants to make a case otherwise then please do so here. Afterwriting ( talk) 09:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
I don't feel strongly about this issue either way. Afterwriting does make a good point in that the origin and culture of NLP is North American. Most of the books on the subject are from the USA and most of the key figures are from the USA so perhaps USA-English is more "natural". AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 03:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
In the introduction, it says: "NLP serves as an example of pseudoscience for facilitating the teaching of scientific literacy at the professional and university level." None of the three references given: Lum, Lilienfeld et al., and Dunn et al. support this statement. Indeed, the aforementioned authors offer NLP as an example of pseudoscience, but there is no specific mention of NLP being used to teach scientific literacy at the professional or University level. Accordingly, if the correct references cannot be provided, the statement should be removed. Lex.shrapnel ( talk) 04:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
( ←) AP: You've been warned about your civility before. I suggest you bow out of this discussion before an administrator gets brought in.
Lex: AP did have a point about WP:REALNAME—thanks for clarifying that on your user page. We all have our heroes, but unlike mine, yours is a real, live person. :) And to answer your post a couple above, no, this type of behaviour isn't condoned anywhere on Wikipedia. – RobinHood70 talk 18:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
(Lex.shrapnel -- Welcome to the NLP talk page. The quizzing you're getting appears to be typical treatment of those who appear to edit this entry of Wikipedia. htom ( talk) 05:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC) )
I've incorporated the syllabi details I listed above into the lead. More will follow. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 03:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
@ Lex.shrapnel Thank-you for being reasonable. I did (some of) the work. To keep the others happy I added to the citations rather replace the existing ones. I did a search using Google and I couldm't find more such courses but I am confident that there are more to be found. I am trying to find something that will better support the "professional" part of the statement. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 04:38, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
In all of the time that I have been here you have contributed nothing to this page. Absolutely nothing. Most recently you were hassling Snowded about giving you evidence that Bandler and Grinder claimed that NLP is scientific. I gave you pages of such evidence (and I can give you more). Your response was that you had family problems and you won't be able to "digest" this for some weeks. Well many weeks have passed will you now WP:CONCEDE? You are incompetent to edit this article. You have no idea about NLP, its developers or its history yet you've developed this bizarre conceit that you represent its guardian. The description of NLP that I provided in Main components and core concepts is better than anything you could have produced in the entirety of your lifetime. All of your complaints have been answered yet you are still here trying to stir-up conflict. AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 02:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
PS:- @ htom Rather than speak in vague generalities can you tell us what you think NLP was and what it has become and can you find a source that corroborates your claim? I haven't encountered any such source nor have I detected any such change directly ("Pure NLP" and "New Code NLP" and their different emphases notwithstanding). I really don't understand what you are complaining about. You can't point to anything specific (because the content of the article is based on the writings, interviews and seminars of Bandler and/or Grinder) so you just express a vague dissatisfaction. Have you considered the possibility that you are incorrect in what you think NLP was? You don't seem to have considered that possibility. You admit that you have a limited reading of NLP texts and on that basis you are prepared to make grand and sweeping pronouncements about some mythical change that NLP has allegedly undergone. Further you are also prepared to criticise other editors for failing to account for this alleged change which you also incongruously categorise as the product of your WP:OR. I suspect that your conception of what NLP originally was is based entirely on your limited knowledge of NLP. More of NLP has been revealed to you in the article and you can't reconcile it with your original conception of NLP so instead of acknowledging that you were ignorant and the article educated you instead you form this strange theory that NLP has undergone some strange mutation since its early days and no NLP writer has recognised it but you have and we are all prejudiced because we don't write about this change even though you can't provide us any sources that document this change. To me this seems to be just a baroque way of dealing with your own ignorance and education in a way that you can deny being ignorant in the first place. It is like me saying "All swans are white" and then when I see a black swan I say "swans have changed, when I said they were all white they were all white but they have since changed so that there are now black swans". AnotherPseudonym ( talk) 09:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC) [discussion from "Teaching Scientific Literacy" moved here] Lex.shrapnel ( talk) 14:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm rereading Frogs ..., Reframing ..., and Trance ..., and will have an answer in a couple of weeks. htom ( talk) 04:11, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Frm the article :
Criticisms go beyond lack of empirical evidence for effectiveness, saying NLP exhibits pseudoscientific characteristics,[19] title,[20]concepts and terminology as well.[21][22] NLP is cited as an example of pseudoscience when teaching scientific literacy at the professional and university level.[23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]
One has to wonder if an article marked for assasination could be reffrenced to death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1zeroate ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Look at this. This editor responsible for the ten ref has a clear bias and little regard for civility. Overkill just to prove a point? To whom? This is wikipedia, your not supposed to be attmpting to make points by seeing who can have the most references. I believe the standard is 3 as being good enough. More supported could of been added as additional reffrences but this 10 inline citation is petty and ugly and need correction. And some limitations on reusing the same reffrence need to be observed. Witkowski is cited as a reference OVER 10 times.
Another problem is the amount of heavy lean toward quakery while at the same time attempting to validate its legitimcy with pubmed numbers and such other qualifiers, the article asks the reader to double think and hold both opposes ideas as true that NLP can be both a theraputic resource as well as quakery that all oppose. The immature contradictions need resolution.
What kind of article is this supposed to be? An informative one that expands an ignorant readers mind to the basic concepts and purpose of NLP
or is this just another article under indefinite protection because someone says so.
Narccisistic personality disorder is a real problem too, always thinking your right? Whoever has to double down on ten refferences or more has a definite problem that is detracting from the potential quality of the article. 1zeroate ( talk) 15:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
So I realize from reading through the rest of the talk page that there's a little bit of a kerfuffle. Just the same, I was wondering how
"Bovbjerg's secular critique of NLP is echoed in the conservative Christian perspective of the New Age as represented by Jeremiah (1995)[144] who argues that, '[t]he ′transformation′ recommended by the founders and leaders of these business seminars [such as NLP] has spiritual implications that a non-Christian or new believer may not recognise. The belief that human beings can change themselves by calling upon the power (or god) within or their own infinite human potential is a contradiction of the Christian view. The Bible says man is a sinner and is saved by God's grace alone.'"
works with WP:Relevance_of_content ? The quoted passage doesn't tell me anything about NLP, and while I'm sure some fellow named Jeremiah is a wealth of information and wonderful person to read should I ever have questions about the modern Christian church, what was quoted amounts to nothing more than an opinion.
NLP has no formal link to religious texts, such as the Bible. No science can serve two masters of thought. Science looks first and only to observable evidence that can predict cause and effect relationships in this world and universe. Science is inductive, meaning observations and experiements lead to the creation of a "law of science".
Religious texts, such as the Bible, as a source of absolute knowledge is deductive meaning the law comes first, then observations are based on what the law says "should be". Jim Smith
The scientific criticism section of this article constitutes about 30% of the article length, but 50% of the intro. I propose cutting the criticism in the lede to two sentences to restore balance. Cla68 ( talk) 00:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
This article is blatantly biased against NLP. This is Wikipedia, not the Skeptic's Dictionary. Are people being skeptical to the point of refusing to acknowledge the possibility it is real, or does someone know it is real and is trying to suppress it? -- Frank Lofaro Jr. ( talk) 15:37, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
This seems a "Straw man" argument. Focussing in Witkowski [16] which is heavily cited in the summary and conveniently free (unlike a number of the both pro and anti references). Bandler has repeatedly described NLP as being "subjective" and `"inherently untestable" (also Witkowski). Witkowski's secondary research focussed on a third party base of data (315 article), from which he selected a subset (i.e. 63 publications on the "Master Journal List of the Institute for Scientific Information in Philadelphia"). He produces both quantitative and qualitative analyses.
It would seem that his analysis demonstrates the poor quality of the database used (and I've not yet found better) and the lack of engagement of the NLP community with the scientific community. Summarising the summary Witkowski confirms at least one of Bandler's claims is true. Presenting NLP as unproven, and not scientifically verified would be balanced - for such a heavy emphasis on being pseudo scientific - the article would need to demonstrate that the NLP community as a whole, or some leading proponents of it, were making it out to be scientific in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluesmany79 ( talk • contribs) 16:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
why are these studies not mentioned: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2296919 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2385721 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1620774 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19505969 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17131608 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21283502 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10263094 this article is clearly extremely biased — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.162.21 ( talk) 17:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Why is the section Neuro-linguistic programming#Scientific evaluation divided into two subsections, "Empirical validity" and "Scientific criticism"? As far as I can tell, these address the same topic (scientific criticism of NLP's lack of empirical validity) and most of the sources are saying essentially the same things. Just looking at the table of contents, a reader is given the false impression that the "Scientific evaluation" section is going to have one subsection talking about evidence for NLP and one subsection talking about evidence against.
If there aren't any objections, I can combine these subsections and also edit for length. Currently, the section is so bloated and meandering as to distract from the bottom line, which is that this is pseudoscience. A lot of the text there can be trimmed and distilled to make this point in a much clearer and more direct way (see e.g. Reverse speech#Rejection by the scientific community). rʨanaɢ ( talk) 03:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I am nominating this article for deletion again. See this page. I am posting this notice here so that all interested parties have an opportunity to either improve this page or contribute to the deletion discussion. Famous dog (c) 14:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I edited a paragraph of the section "NLP as quasi-religion" to remove strong POV while retaining the facts of the matter. It was reverted by Snowded with the comment: Hardly a POV when it reports court decisions. Note that information regarding the court decisions was retained, but the grouping of NLP as a "New Age" practice (along with yoga, meditation and other methods) was clarified to be the view of the plaintiffs - that was not a court decision.
I am restoring this version as it is more accurate and less POV. I will not be editing into a further edit war on this change. -- Chriswaterguy talk 02:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the whole section should be deleted, for the same reasons that a similar section was deleted by me back in 2007. The sources used simply do not properly support what was being said.
The section on "NLP as quasi-religion" was recently added by User:AnotherPseudonym. Compare that with the following edits, all made by the same banned user who was banned for long term abuse of this article, including misuse of sources. The sources used are the same, and the arguments similar:
The new sources that have been added do not appear to be much better, and show the same pattern of misuse of sources that was seen in this article ten year ago. The section should be deleted again now for the same reasons. Enchanter ( talk) 21:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
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Please correct :
More recently (circa 1997), Bandler has claimed, "NLP is based on finding out what works and formalizing it. In order to formalize patterns I utilized everything from linguistics to holography...The models that constitute NLP are all formal models based on mathematical, logical principles [sic] such as predicate calculus and the mathematical equations underlying holography."
to :
More recently (circa 1997), Bandler has claimed, "NLP is based on finding out what works and formalizing it. In order to formalize patterns I utilized everything from linguistics to holography...The models that constitute NLP are all formal models based on mathematical, logical principles [sic] such as predicate calculus and the mathematical equations underlying holography."
by removing the [sic] as the spelling of the word principles is correct for this usage.
Thank you, VTRefugee ( talk) 20:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC) VTRefugee VTRefugee ( talk) 20:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
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There were 3 co-founders of NLP - Bandler, Grinder and Frank Pucelik. The latter is often left out of NLP histories as he was asked to leave the group by Bandler. However, Grinder himself in the book "The Origins of Neuro-Linguistic Programming", writes that "The co-editors of this book, Frank Pucelik and John Grinder, were two of the 3 prime movers in the creation of NLP." Grinder also credits Pucelik in a similar way in the book "Whispering in the Wind", St Clair and Grinder, 2001.
Several other contributors to the book also credit Pucelik.
Please therefore add his name to to the co-founders of NLP at the start of the article.
In the section titled "Early Development", the article quotes Stollznow who claims: "Other than Satir, the people they cite as influences did not collaborate with Bandler or Grinder". This is untrue as there is well-documented interaction between the two and Milton Erickson, who was introduced to them by Gregory Bateson. Erickson wrote the preface to Grinder and Bandler's book: "Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H Erickson", writing that the book "is a much better explanation of how I work than I. myself, can give." Stollznow was either mis-informed or has his own reasons for distorting the truth. His research is clearly flawed and unreliable.
Please correct this distortion.
My third point is a little more problematical.
The article states, under the heading "Commercialization and evaluation" , that "Tomasz Witkowski attributes this to a declining interest in the debate as the result of a lack of empirical support for NLP from its proponents".
This statement is dangerously misleading as it depends upon how one defined NLP. It is true that some NLP techniques are little more than smoke and mirrors. Others, however, have stood up to the most rigorous of testing: the core belief that while one's perception is one's reality, two people's "realities" will differ is not only an accepted tenet of psychology, the police have to wrestle with its consequences when witness statements contradict each other. Anchoring in another example of a technique at the core of NLP that, thanks to Pavlov and countless researchers since, is accepted in fields as diverse as psychology, marketing, sports coaching etc.
It would be safer to write that "Many NLP techniques have no empirical support or validation". Otherwise, the section Commercialization and evaluation" is contaminated.
Finally, I appreciate how tough a job it must be to write any article on NLP, not least because there is no common consensus about a definition of NLP among NLP practitioners!
Oliver1957 ( talk) 16:29, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
I've been going through the electronically available citations in this article to further my own research. The Lilienfeld article cited in footnote 100 does not mention NLP. I suggest removing the Lilienfeld article from the footnote because it does not generally nor directly support the asserted statement. (The other citations in footnote 100 are not electronically available, so I cannot speak to their veracity.)
Statement: In fact, in education, NLP has been used as a key example of pseudoscience.[100]
Footnote: See, for example, the following:
Lum.C (2001). Scientific Thinking in Speech and Language Therapy. Psychology Press. p. 16.
ISBN
0-8058-4029-X.
Lilienfeld, Scott O.; Lohr, Jeffrey M.; Morier, Dean (1 July 2001). "The Teaching of Courses in the Science and Pseudoscience of Psychology: Useful Resources". Teaching of Psychology 28 (3): 182–191. doi:10.1207/S15328023TOP2803_03.
Dunn D, Halonen J, Smith R (2008). Teaching Critical Thinking in Psychology. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 12.
ISBN
978-1-4051-7402-2. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Theobfuskate (
talk •
contribs)
03:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Eturk001 ( talk) 02:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee are reviewing the discretionary sanctions topic areas with a view to remove overlapping authorisations, the proposed changes will affect this topic area. Details of the proposal are at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motion: Overlap of Sanctions where your comments are invited. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 20:44, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
"For example, I believe it was very useful that neither one of us were qualified in the field we first went after - psychology and in particular, its therapeutic application; this being one of the conditions which Kuhn identified in his historical study of paradigm shifts," says one of these great pioneers.
"Neither one of us were," one assumes, is staking out ignorance of the English language as a prerequisite for the linguistic side of their revolution.
David Lloyd-Jones ( talk) 07:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
-- Psyus ( talk) 15:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I reworded the first couple of paragraphs to make them clearer and more neutral. The rest of the article needs more of the same. This page is way too ranty for a Wikipedia article. Readers deserve better, and they know it -- they'll abandon the article fast, and find their information about NLP somewhere else. I doubt anyone actually wants that! If I get around to it, I'll restructure the article properly, with the description in the beginning and criticism towards the end. (If you criticize a concept that has not yet been fully presented, it comes across as heckling.) I'm sure NLP's detractors can present their viewpoint far more creditably than they have so far, once the failed attempts are dealt with... RobertPlamondon ( talk) 19:09, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Interesting that my edit to say "The name refers to the connection between neurological processes ("neuro"), language ("linguistic") and behavioral patterns learned through experience ("programming")" was reverted. This statement is 100% non-controversial. Is there anyone alive who would contend that there is no connection between neurology, language, and behavior? Of course there isn't. Learn to pace yourselves, dudes, I'm doing you a favor by making you look more reasoned. RobertPlamondon ( talk) 19:17, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here: Neuro-linguistic programming is referenced as a standard technique to be used in the Army's Civilian Affairs manual, in the section on negotiation (STP 41-38II-OFS, Officer Foundation, Standards II Civil Affairs, (38) Officer’s Manual, April 2004). This may be useful, or not, as a reference or as research material. I read this recently, and came to Wikipedia to find out what NLP is. I still don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.111.71 ( talk) 19:10, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
RobertPlamondon still has a general point though when he says the page is way too ranty. Some of the sourcing is questionable e.g. "The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience." is sourced from a blog post which I think can be pretty safely filed under WP:USERGENERATED. Yes 'Joe Greemfield' (I am guessing this is he - https://causewaycollaborative.com/joe-greenfield/) cites "Clinician's Guide to Evidence Based Practices: Mental Health and the Addictions" - so someone actually needs to go to the source as far I can see. Writing a good, 'balanced' NLP article is going to be a tough collaborative effort, but I don't think it's too much of an assertion to say that we could do better. Maloot ( talk) 08:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I am new to editing Wikipedia but I am a Certified NLP Trainer with over 10 years experience in training and working with individuals. I can therefore speak from personal experience. I do find that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about NLP from those who are less intimately involved and the article in part reflects that. I would like to add: It is a generalisation to assert that NLP is discredited and should be regarded as pseudoscience. This is an example of ‘Universal Quantifier’ addressed by NLP in the Metamodel, and at the very least we should ask ‘which part of NLP specifically’ is being referred to.
Because NLP is concerned with the unique subjective experience of an individual, any attempt to study a group of individuals to produce some sort of aggregate or average response is fatally flawed. Grinder makes this point in ‘Whispering in the Wind’ in discussing academic studies of NLP’s Eye Accessing Cues model.
In therapy, a skilled practitioner of NLP may utilise one of NLP’s well documented techniques, but will finesses and adapt these to make them effective with each individual client. As such, it is not possible to aggregate the results because every individual has been ‘treated’ differently.
NLP has made little effort to understand how it works because it is more concerned with doing things that work than studying why they work. Any scientific quest is regarded as a search for the ‘territory’ and NLP is only concerned with the different ‘maps’ that individuals have made of the ‘territory. The map is not the territory.
The evidence for the effectiveness of NLP is vested ultimately in the individual testimonies of those ordinary people, businessmen, athletes and patients who have whose lives have been changed for the better through competent NLP practitioners.
Some cynicism has been expressed over Bandler and Grinder resolving their differences in the courts, rather than using their NLP skills. In The Structure of Magic Volume 1, Bandler and Grinder explain, ‘Our experience has been that, when people come to us in therapy, they typically come with pain, feeling themselves paralysed, experiencing no choices or freedom of action in their lives. What we have found is not that the world is too limited or that there are no choices, but that these people block themselves from seeing those options and possibilities that are open to them since they are not available in their models of the world.’ In NLP terms, they simply made a choice.
One organisation, INLPTA (International NLP Trainers Association) has published syllabuses and assessment standards for Diploma, Practitioner, Master Practitioner which INLPTA Certified Trainers are required to adhere to. Standards are also published for the training of Trainers and Master Trainers, Coaches and Master Coaches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David B Smallwood ( talk • contribs) 07:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Reply from David B Smallwood. Effectiveness of NLP. If a skilled NLP practitioner works with a client with a phobia, and the client wishes to get rid of that phobia, and afterwards the client no longer has the phobia, then that (in NLP terms) could be because the NLP intervention has worked, or could be because of another unknown reason. Contiguity in time is generally regarded as best evidence - ie the client lost their phobia immediately after the NLP intervention. Where the client does not lose their phobia, NLP would say that the standard Fast Phobia Cure did not on this occasion work. This does not mean that it doesn't work, simply that on this occasion it did not. Richard Bandler said that he was not interested when his students came and told him that NLP had worked, he was only interested when it had not. In other words, the technique or procedure has limitations and it is of great interest to NLP modellers to discover the limitations of their models and how to overcome them. Robert Dilts, the prime developer of NLP since Bandler and Grinder, defines NLP as "What works". By this he means that the model works. when it doesn't, we go back and do more modelling.
Just because one NLP intervention on a particular occasion does not produce the desired result, is no reason to say that any part of NLP does not work. No more than taking two Anadin Plus and failing to get rid of a headache proves that Anadin Plus doesn't work, nor that Western Medicine as a whole is pseudoscience.
I don't know of any parts of NLP that are ineffective. Any aspect of NLP may not work on an occasion. It depends on the state of the client, the state of the practitioner, the rapport between them, the competency of the practitioner to adapt to that individual client's map of the world and if that change is totally ecological for the client. Success may not be replicable for many reasons, all of which return it to NLP's true quest - to model excellence.
In some ways NLP is similar to Theoretical Physics. There is no quest for truth, simply a quest for a set of equations which explain everything we can observe. There is no suggestion by theoretical physicists that they have discovered the truth about the universe, only that they have a set of equations which fit observations. NLP has no quest for any kind of truth about 'reality', it is a quest to understand the map that of each individual has of reality and how to work effectively with that map to help that individual achieve their outcomes. As such, factual errors are irrelevant. Only results matter.
The scientific approach seems to want to understand and validate NLP as if one were studying how to kick football. Evidence of multiple ways of kicking and the resulting flight of the ball can be accumulated and knowledge about how to kick a football deduced. Kicking in exactly the same way will achieve the same result. NLP could be likened to kicking a dog. The outcome of an identical kick is totally unpredictable as it depends on the mood of the dog and the ability of the dog to understand the kicker's intentions. Dogs can generally tell the difference between a deliberate and accidental kick, but not always. No scientific study will ever produce a theory which will predict the result of kicking a dog in a specific way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David B Smallwood ( talk • contribs) 14:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Firstly,NLP has a basis in Philosophy, given that is significant cornerstone is Epistemology (the study of the nature, origin and limits of human knowledge).
I see know similar bias on the page for hypnosis and the two are very strongly linked... Iltaph ( talk) 14:59, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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Under the "Main components and core concepts" section and there is a "Subjectivity. According to Bandler and Grinder:" section. In that section please change the second sentence "These subjective representation of experience are constituted in terms of five senses and language." to "These subjective representations of experience are constituted in terms of five senses and language." for grammatical reasons. The word "representation" should be plural.
Thanks Spitfir23 ( talk) 23:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
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Why is this disambiguated from EST? - David Gerard ( talk) 19:38, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
The pick-up culture relies heavily on these distorted views of human interaction. I will hopefully find time to add to the article, but if it interests anyone else to do so, the Wikipedia article would more closely reflect modern reality if it at least mentioned that the origin of the PUA ethos is rooted in the pseudoscience of "NLP". 173.217.205.130 ( talk) 12:10, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
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New link to PDF document for
Heap. M., (1988) Neurolinguistic programming: An interim verdict. In M. Heap (Ed.) Hypnosis: Current Clinical, Experimental and Forensic Practices. London: Croom Helm, pp. 268–280.
www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/nlp1.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.50.58 ( talk) 11:20, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
David Gerard: RE: This sentence that you reverted. When it's a medical claim, I don't think it matters if it's in WP's voice, otherwise MEDRS would be irrelevant. It would be ok in their voice if it said something like, "Bandler and Grinder claim as well that NLP can treat a number of psychological and physical in a single session." The issue is that it names specific disorders that it supposedly treats, especially because there are so many citations and all of the terms are wikilinked, that part really jumps out at you. I'll ask at WT:MED. —PermStrump (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
why is this article so biased? i was looking for an encyclopedia article not an opinion on the method. i thought there was a places opinions under criticism. this is not at the least scientific. Yasemincakmak ( talk) 17:15, 17 July 2016 (UTC) if wikipedia is a place where there is space only for "accredited" sciences then it is not a encyclopedia for all. i find this greatly disturbing. my trust is shattered. who is to say what is what is not pseudoscience? who are you? and what about those that have been helped by this and those that could be helped that the article is preventing from accessing it. i was with a woman yesterday that after 16 years of dealing with extreme agoraphobia and having tried all the different routes decided to try npl and after 18 months of doing the program she was freed. she credits npl for changing her life. and this is a remark made 30 years after completing it. i feel like the pseudoscience hunters are a bit like christian witch hunters. full of self importance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yasemincakmak ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
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Please add this to the chapter History and conception --> Early development, right at the beginning, before all the other text. I think it is an important part of the early beginnings and it adds to the text already written.
NLP began in the mid of 1960s in California, when scientists started to question earlier developed
psychology. The psychology dealt primarily with
mental disorders and
abnormal behavior. Its aim was primarily to restore the working capacity of the affected people. But scientifically oriented psychology ignored the part of the
human mind that makes us good, powerful and human. Therefore, scientists started to explore what makes people happy, successful and prominent. The result was a
human potential movement. Its aim was to explore and to promote the possibilities that are lying dormant in people.
On the ideas of people like
Abraham Maslow,
Carl Rogers,
Fritz Perls,
Alan Watts,
Viktor Frankl,
Milton Erickson founded this new movement. Many scientists and therapists developed methods and theories that followed this new way of psychology.
One of these scientists was Richard Bandler, a student of computer science and psychology. In 1972 he met with John Grinder, a teacher of linguistics. They both had similar interests and started to work together. First, they looked into speech patterns that people use in different situations and developed a new model of communication. Then they started to explore not only the spoken language but also the non-verbal components of language. By their work they targeted specifically at individuals who stood out in their field. So they contacted the three most successful therapists in the United States, Milton Erickson, who had revolutionized hypnotherapy, Fritz Perls, the inventor of Gestalt therapy, and Virginia Satir, the mother of family therapy, and asked to take part in their therapy sessions.
MarTina ( talk) 20:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
References
There are three characteristics of effective patterning in NLP which sharply distinguish it from behavioral science as it is commonly practiced today. First, for a pattern or generalization regarding human communication to be acceptable or well–formed in NLP, it must include in the description the human agents who are initiating and responding to the pattern being described, their actions, their possible responses. Secondly, the description of the pattern must be represented in sensory grounded terms which are available to the user. This user–oriented constraint on NLP ensures usefulness. We have been continually struck by the tremendous gap between theory and practice in the behavioral sciences — this requirement closes that gap. Notice that since patterns must be represented in sensory grounded terms, available through practice to the user, a pattern will typically have multiple representation — each tailored for the differing sensory capabilities of individual users...Thirdly, NLP includes within its descriptive vocabulary terms which are not directly observable [i.e. representational systems]
The basic elements from which the patterns of human behavior are formed are the perceptual systems through which the members of the species operate on their environment: vision (sight), audition (hearing), kinesthesis (body sensations) and olfaction/gustation (smell/taste). The neurolinguistic programming model presupposes that all of the distinctions we as human beings are able to make concerning our environment (internal and external) and our behavior can be usefully represented in terms of these systems. These perceptual classes constitute the structural parameters of human knowledge. We postulate that all of our ongoing experience can usefully be coded as consisting of some combination of these sensory classes.
#23 The Change Personal History Pattern
#24 The Swish Pattern
#2 Pacing Or Matching Another's Model Of The World
NLP presents specific tools which can be applied effectively in any human interaction. It offers specific techniques by which a practitioner may usefully organize and re–organize his or her subjective experience or the experiences of a client in order to define and subsequently secure any behavioral outcome.
Strategies and representations which typically occur below an individual's level of awareness make up what is often called or referred to as the "unconscious mind."
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Not done for now: Currently, what you've offered, looks like an independent essay - not written in encyclopedic style - that you want inserted into the article. Far too many "peacock" words: "incredible", "young, creative and dedicated", "much more significant", "revolutionized" etc. Some of the sentence structure is quite tortured, as well: "met eleven years older John Grinder", "which aim was to ...". You can reinstate this request by offering a better version suitable for immediate inclusion. —jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 22:45, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Consider the abstract from recent peer-reviewed research as evidence that, while NLP is not a mainstream therapy, it is does not qualify as pseudoscience under the neutrality rule: Zaharia, Reiner, & Schütz (2015) Psychiatria Danubina, Vol 27(4), 2015. pp. 355-363. I won't edit the page yet, but it bears discussing... Bmcdani4 ( talk) 21:11, 19 September 2016 (UTC)bmcdani4
A new editor tried reversing the tone of the article at Methods of neuro-linguistic programming - see Talk:Methods_of_neuro-linguistic_programming#recent_advocacy_edits. I suggested they come here, but reviewing the new claim there may also be useful - David Gerard ( talk) 21:46, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
But NP is basically Suggestion. And Suggestion is a real thing - supported also by wikipedia - so I don't get the extremity of this article to discredit it. Yes, not all of it is true but the BASICS of it, the Suggestion, is obviously a real thing. -- 188.4.150.161 ( talk) 12:50, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
It would appear that the contributors of this page appear to have a professional interest in undermining the usefulness of NLP. Since many psychologist are adopting the practice to help those where talk therapy is not working over long periods of time. Even the articles put forward as evidence against the science do not support what the contributors are claiming. That is, they are falsely and purposefully misleading the reader with links to articles that do not support the claims they made. It would be like linking an article about aliens to a medical journal on high blood pressure.
The page should be returned to its original few posts until which time factual data can be introduced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swanback ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Studies suggest that "confederates mimic the posture and movements of participants and showed that mimicry facilitates the smoothness of interactions and increases liking between interaction partners" Chartrand, T. L., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). The chameleon effect: The perception-behavior link and social interaction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 893–910.. As such the controversial idea of "mirroring and matching" is supported by a relatively high quality and peer reviewed study.
Additional Studies that support the concept of "Rapport": Above source repeated for easy browsing: Chartrand, T. L., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). The chameleon effect: The perception-behavior link and social interaction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 893–910. http://www.spring.org.uk/2009/11/the-chameleon-effect.php Lakin, J.L., Jefferis, V.E., Cheng, C.M. et al. Journal of Nonverbal Behavior (2003) 27: 145. doi:10.1023/A:1025389814290
Mimicry is Over Simplified by NLP: Mirroring a person that is undesirable makes the third person dislike the mimic-er
Kavanagh, L. C., Suhler, C. L., Churchland, P. S., & Winkielman, P. (2011). When it’s an error to mirror: The surprising reputational costs of mimicry. Psychological science, 22(10), 1274-1276.
First published date: September-15-2011
Based on the above sources and marketing psychology the Rapport section of NLP may not be off-base. If these studies are quality they lend support to the basic mirroring/matching concept of Rapport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Watson2.0 ( talk • contribs) 05:00, 28 February 2017 Watson2.0 ( talk) 06:48, 28 February 2017 (UTC)Watson2.0
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Please consider changing footnote 98 from:
See, for example, the following:
To:
See, for example, the following:
Rationale: The Lilienfeld article does not mention NLP and is not a relevant citation for: "In fact, in education, NLP has been used as a key example of pseudoscience." I do not have access to the other citations and I cannot speak to their veracity. Eturk001 also found this to be true.
Thank you! Theobfuskate ( talk) 15:40, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I added E-Prime to the see also list. @ Snowded: reverted this edit. It's a small thing, but I think E-Prime is very appropriate for the see also section, as it also uses specific linguistic techniques for a purported therapeutic benefit. (See E-Prime#Influence in psychotherapy) There are also claims that Neuro-linguistic programming uses E-Prime as a technique and that NLP's theoretical basis relies heavily on the work of Korzybski and Bourland, developers of E-Prime. [1]
The Wikipedia Manual of Style says that the see also section should include "topics similar to that discussed in the article" [2] I apologize for ignoring the MOS guidance that "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent" [3] Do others have suggestions what an appropriate annotation might be? Sondra.kinsey ( talk) 16:50, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
References
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This part is missing in the article and I want to add the main and important thing to it
In essence, all of NLP is founded on two fundamental presuppositions:
• The Map is Not the Territory. As human beings, we can never know reality. We can only know our perceptions of reality. We experience and respond to the world around us primarily through our senses. It is our 'neuro-linguistic' maps of reality that determine how we behave and how we create meaning, not reality itself. It is usually not reality that limits us or empowers us, but rather our map of reality.
• Life and 'Mind' are Systemic Processes.
The processes that take place within a human being and between human beings and their environment are systemic. Our bodies, societies, and our universe form an ecology of complex systems and sub-systems all of which interact with and mutually influence each other. It is not possible to completely isolate any part of the system from the rest of the system. Such systems are based on certain 'self-organizing' principles and naturally seek optimal states of balance or homeostasis.
All of the models and techniques of NLP are based on the combination of these two principles. In the belief system of NLP it is not possible for human beings to know objective reality. Wisdom, ethics and ecology do not come from having the one 'correct' map of the world, because human beings would not be capable of making one. Rather, the goal is to create the richest map possible that respects the systemic nature and ecology of ourselves and the world we live in. The people who are most effective are the ones who have a map of the world that allows them to perceive the greatest number of available choices and perspectives. Adnansaram ( talk) 16:22, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
"NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically". This is statement is bias and diminishes the scientific content of the article overall. As an example, Christianity has been "overwhelming discredited scientifically". The same has been said of the work of Galileo and Einstein.
There are millions of users, practitioners and believers in the methods proposed by NLP. People have healed and learned to live a better live using NLP. It is now used in life coaching, and self-help programs
The statement should be modified to reflect a fact from an opinion. Jtllz ( talk) 23:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Pray tell, could you clarify what you mean by the discrediting of Christianity? Its belief system is questionable, but last I checked we had empirical data confirming that this religion exists. Dimadick ( talk) 14:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Edited it to better describe what is discredited.
Hackwrench (
talk)
09:42, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Just because something is not scientific does not mean it's wrong. The false idea that everything real is quantifiable and testable depends in itself on an unquantifiable, untestable premise. It is not scientific, and there is no scientific evidence for it, but there is plenty of experiential evidence for it, and that is proof that it works, at least in their experience. Svend la Rose ( talk) 16:05, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
I do not know how to add in reflist, but all the researches claiming that NLP are not regarding it as science are themselves outdated. I hope that the moderators can have a look to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26609647 or here http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/239625 and inform the Wikipedia readers correctly and shows also what it works in NLP. Another notable research is http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/14733140903225240/abstract and I do not think that only one side of the story should be shown. If that is the case Wikipedia is discrediting itself. Drcz ( talk) 13:30, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Required edit requires sourcing which specifically addresses scientific workings of NLP - efficacy studies aren't proof of discredited claims about the workings of the brain
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"Mixed results" is more accurate than "scientifically discredited."
Did you know that all forms of Psychotherapy have mixed results? Yet not a single one of these list in the first paragraph as being "scientifically discredited". Did you know all forms of surgery have mixed results? If you cheery-picked all the "failures" and put them all together into a "study" you could "discredit" 100% of all western medicine. Because there are rarely silver bullets that work 100% of the time for 100% of the people. And we don't know why, people are very dynamic beings. None the less, there are PLENTY of NLP studies that report success. So should we only look at these and say it's a blinding success? No, we look at both, and you can claim mixed results. That's fair, balanced and accurate. Officially, not even that vernacular should be used, UNLESS you go and change every single other medical procedure first paragraph page as well as being "mixed results." Because that's is 100% honest scientific truth. Darrellx ( talk) 18:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans. |
As has been pointed out before, @ Darrellx: the authors of that meta analysis appear to work for some Romanian company specialising in, yes - you guessed it, NLP. Find me a scientific study supportive of NLP that is not written by an NLP practitioner and I will buy you a beer. Until then, case closed. Famousdog (woof) (grrr) 13:11, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
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Kirin Soo is the youngest NLP Practitioner trained by Dr Richard Bandler during May 2017 in London.Source:
<ref> https://www.facebook.com/nlplifetraining/photos/t.100003379624179/10154439380550458/?type=3&theater<ref> Crypto168 ( talk) 12:35, 18 August 2018 (UTC)