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@ Glane23: can you please explain why you keep reverting when the main source used in this article "The Emergence of Kurdish Nationalism and the Sheikh Said Rebellion, 1880–1925" states the people were Assyrian. "One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Sebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion." Nestorian is a theology of christianity that is incorrect and does not apply to Assyrians and was incorrectly used sometimes to describe them. The Assyrian people page explains this as well: /info/en/?search=Assyrian_people
TukultīApilEšarra ( talk) 20:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Should the article subject be changed from Nestorian to Assyrian? I explained my reasoning on the talk page;
the main source used in this article "The Emergence of Kurdish Nationalism and the Sheikh Said Rebellion, 1880–1925" states the people were Assyrian. "One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Sebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion." Nestorian is a theology of Christianity that is incorrect and does not apply to Assyrians and was incorrectly used sometimes to describe them. The Assyrian people page explains this as well: Assyrian_people
TukultīApilEšarra ( talk) 01:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
*Comment: I should've just looked at your source first. It's just a bad source, in that it's using antiquated language. When I look at his footnotes, he is translating the Arabic exonym (usually pejorative) "Nasrani" incorrectly to Nestorian due to is commonplace usage as a misnomer for Syriac Christians (whether they self-identity as Assyrian, Chaldean, Aramaean, or what). It actually derives from "Nazarene". But anyway, by that time, in that place, they definitely identified as either Assyrian (vast majority) or Chaldean.
This is what your source says (p.126-127):
Nothing can better describe the great amount of energy, men, money, materials, and time that the Turkish government spent on trying to suppress and contain Kurdish rebellion and Kurdish nationalism than the admission of the Turkish armed forces that of the
eighteen armed engagements between 1914 and 1938 that the armed forces were involved in suppressing, seventeen occurred in Kurdistan. One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Şebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion.
In other words, of the major nineteen military engagements in which the Turkish armed forces participated from 1914 and 1938, all but two were against or connected with efforts to suppress Kurdish rebellions and nationalism. Only two engagements, that of Menemen in December 1930 and the action in Alexandretta (Hatay), were not connected with the Kurds.
In the post-World War II period, with the exception of Korea (1951 —1953) and Cyprus (1974-present), Turkish armed forces' actions have been solely against the Kurds. For historians of Turkey not to record or to recognize this fact is akin to studying the history of the United States without studying the history and impact of its black population or studying the history of the Soviet Union without mentioning the influence or impact of the Muslims.
But I think the author has got all muddled up - and I'm not surprised, looking at the state of his prose. I don't think there was any Assyrian or Nestorian or Christian rebellion or incident of any sort in September, 1924, at Beyt Şebab. Every source I can find says it was a garrison of the Sheykh's Kurdish fighters, supported by riling up local Naqshbandi Kurds. I can't find any mention of any Christian involvement at all - accept as alleged victims of Sheikh Said's rebels. - EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 09:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
From the greatest Kurdologist of all time himself:
Van Bruinessen. M. (1992). Agha, Shaikh and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan, Zed Books. (p. 283-4)
Ihsan Nuri's mutiny and desertion
"The names of the deserters who gave the British all this information are not mentioned in the documents, but there cannot be any doubt that they were Ihsan Nuri and his comrades, whose escape to Iraq is connected with the first of a series of mistakes and setbacks that ended in the failure of the revolt. A regiment of the Seventh army corps, in which a number of prominent Azadi members were officers (including Ihsan Nuri and a brother of Yusuf Ziya Beg, Riza), was, in August 1924, sent on a punitive expedition against the Nestorian Assyrians of Hakkari, who had shown themselves disobedient to the government. While they were at Baytushabab they received a cipher telegram from Yusuf Ziya (who, through Azadi contacts, could use the military telegraph). Yusuf Ziya had been in Istanbul to sound out Turkish opposition circles. His telegram contained a report of his findings. His brother Riza and the other Kurdish officers, however, misunderstood it for a sign that the general uprising had started. They mutinied and, taking many arms, went into the mountains, followed by four companies consisting almost entirely of Kurds. They tried, in vain, to persuade local Kurdish tribes to join in the revolt. When they realized that there was no general uprising, and that their position was very precarious, they destroyed the heavy arms and fled to Iraq. Here they were hospitably entertained."
Footnote: This story is well-known in Kurdish nationalist circles. The accounts in Dersimi (1952):173-4 and Silopi (1969):82-3 are virtually identical with the oral information I received from Mamduh Salim and Mulla Hasan.
. Dirokakurdiya ( talk) 07:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The page at this current time is being vandalized by kurdish teens from tiktok inorder to change history and hide their embarrassment from this huge loss. If it says Turkish-Kurdish victory it is false, no sources back it up. It was an Assyrian victory. 2607:FEA8:EA4:8A00:CAC:147D:4233:8AB8 ( talk) 20:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
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Remove {{ in use}}, the article is clearly not undergoing a major edit. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
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@ Glane23: can you please explain why you keep reverting when the main source used in this article "The Emergence of Kurdish Nationalism and the Sheikh Said Rebellion, 1880–1925" states the people were Assyrian. "One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Sebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion." Nestorian is a theology of christianity that is incorrect and does not apply to Assyrians and was incorrectly used sometimes to describe them. The Assyrian people page explains this as well: /info/en/?search=Assyrian_people
TukultīApilEšarra ( talk) 20:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Should the article subject be changed from Nestorian to Assyrian? I explained my reasoning on the talk page;
the main source used in this article "The Emergence of Kurdish Nationalism and the Sheikh Said Rebellion, 1880–1925" states the people were Assyrian. "One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Sebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion." Nestorian is a theology of Christianity that is incorrect and does not apply to Assyrians and was incorrectly used sometimes to describe them. The Assyrian people page explains this as well: Assyrian_people
TukultīApilEšarra ( talk) 01:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
*Comment: I should've just looked at your source first. It's just a bad source, in that it's using antiquated language. When I look at his footnotes, he is translating the Arabic exonym (usually pejorative) "Nasrani" incorrectly to Nestorian due to is commonplace usage as a misnomer for Syriac Christians (whether they self-identity as Assyrian, Chaldean, Aramaean, or what). It actually derives from "Nazarene". But anyway, by that time, in that place, they definitely identified as either Assyrian (vast majority) or Chaldean.
This is what your source says (p.126-127):
Nothing can better describe the great amount of energy, men, money, materials, and time that the Turkish government spent on trying to suppress and contain Kurdish rebellion and Kurdish nationalism than the admission of the Turkish armed forces that of the
eighteen armed engagements between 1914 and 1938 that the armed forces were involved in suppressing, seventeen occurred in Kurdistan. One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Şebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion.
In other words, of the major nineteen military engagements in which the Turkish armed forces participated from 1914 and 1938, all but two were against or connected with efforts to suppress Kurdish rebellions and nationalism. Only two engagements, that of Menemen in December 1930 and the action in Alexandretta (Hatay), were not connected with the Kurds.
In the post-World War II period, with the exception of Korea (1951 —1953) and Cyprus (1974-present), Turkish armed forces' actions have been solely against the Kurds. For historians of Turkey not to record or to recognize this fact is akin to studying the history of the United States without studying the history and impact of its black population or studying the history of the Soviet Union without mentioning the influence or impact of the Muslims.
But I think the author has got all muddled up - and I'm not surprised, looking at the state of his prose. I don't think there was any Assyrian or Nestorian or Christian rebellion or incident of any sort in September, 1924, at Beyt Şebab. Every source I can find says it was a garrison of the Sheykh's Kurdish fighters, supported by riling up local Naqshbandi Kurds. I can't find any mention of any Christian involvement at all - accept as alleged victims of Sheikh Said's rebels. - EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 09:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
From the greatest Kurdologist of all time himself:
Van Bruinessen. M. (1992). Agha, Shaikh and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan, Zed Books. (p. 283-4)
Ihsan Nuri's mutiny and desertion
"The names of the deserters who gave the British all this information are not mentioned in the documents, but there cannot be any doubt that they were Ihsan Nuri and his comrades, whose escape to Iraq is connected with the first of a series of mistakes and setbacks that ended in the failure of the revolt. A regiment of the Seventh army corps, in which a number of prominent Azadi members were officers (including Ihsan Nuri and a brother of Yusuf Ziya Beg, Riza), was, in August 1924, sent on a punitive expedition against the Nestorian Assyrians of Hakkari, who had shown themselves disobedient to the government. While they were at Baytushabab they received a cipher telegram from Yusuf Ziya (who, through Azadi contacts, could use the military telegraph). Yusuf Ziya had been in Istanbul to sound out Turkish opposition circles. His telegram contained a report of his findings. His brother Riza and the other Kurdish officers, however, misunderstood it for a sign that the general uprising had started. They mutinied and, taking many arms, went into the mountains, followed by four companies consisting almost entirely of Kurds. They tried, in vain, to persuade local Kurdish tribes to join in the revolt. When they realized that there was no general uprising, and that their position was very precarious, they destroyed the heavy arms and fled to Iraq. Here they were hospitably entertained."
Footnote: This story is well-known in Kurdish nationalist circles. The accounts in Dersimi (1952):173-4 and Silopi (1969):82-3 are virtually identical with the oral information I received from Mamduh Salim and Mulla Hasan.
. Dirokakurdiya ( talk) 07:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The page at this current time is being vandalized by kurdish teens from tiktok inorder to change history and hide their embarrassment from this huge loss. If it says Turkish-Kurdish victory it is false, no sources back it up. It was an Assyrian victory. 2607:FEA8:EA4:8A00:CAC:147D:4233:8AB8 ( talk) 20:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove {{ in use}}, the article is clearly not undergoing a major edit. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)