![]() | Neaira (hetaera) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
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![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
March 15, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that more is known about
Neaira, a
hetaera who lived during the
4th century BC in
ancient Greece, than any other
prostitute in
classical antiquity? | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
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![]() | This article contains a translation of Neaira (Hetäre) from de.wikipedia. |
This is a featured article of the German Wikipedia, and deserves translation.
I've only partially translated the first two sections. There are certainly many errors and inconsistencies. Your input is appreciated. Deatonjr 06:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee 18:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Nikarete took Neaira as her daughter and provided for her "training" as a prostitute. Why is "training" in quotes? If there is a source that says she was "trained" but use of this word is considered dubious, the nature of the controversy should be explained in the article. From the description of the full role of Hetaera in that article's introduction:
it appears to me that the word "training" may be used without reservation or quotation marks.
I have no objection to the other words in quotes in the introductory paragraphs: "bettering" is presumably a literal translation from source documents, but will be unfamiliar to most English-speaking readers; "to fornicate" is a specific phrase (loosely) translating "korinthiazein". jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 15:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Ironically, the primary source for this article is the book written by Yale professor Debra Hamil translated into german. "bettering" probably refers to nikarete's desire to establish her house as something other than a brothel. She purchased the girls as slaves, but raised them as her own, and allowed them to "better" themselves, with the eventual possibility of purchasing their own freedom. Deatonjr 14:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm an owner of Hamels book, but in the german translation (made by professor Kai Brodersen, an well respected man). And I#m the owner of a book with the original source. "training" is an possible word. "Instruction" also would be OK. All the young girls were trained by Nikarete, to getting good prostitutes at the end, so say the original source by Apollodoros. And please do not iuse the article Hetaira to define something. The article is very bad and absolutely not on a modern standard. Actually in the reseach the old meaning oth "hetaira" is hardly controversial and disputed. In the article Aspasia is named as hetaira - this is a bad joke. The ancient aources could be interpreted in this way - but these authors had cultural and political causes to write againt a woman who thinks for herself. She never was an hetaira. So much about the horrible article. To say it in an easy and short way: hetairas were prostitutes who were more expensive and on an higher educationlevel. But normally they were not of influence. Often they were slaves, former slaves or foreingners. The special "Aura" (don't know the englich word for this) is an modern creation. The philologues and hitorians were imperessed by these woman - but it wasn't possible the see them as prostitutes in times were prostitution were a bad thing. So they made them an special version of greek women. The ancient sources don't justified that. And if someone likes to ask mrs Hamel, it's not a big problem. It's possible here. She's a very fine person and give quick answers. I hope, it's to understand, what I'm trying to say. Marcus Cyron 21:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that the scene depicted in the image involves an actual hetaera? If a musical instrument or other prop was depicted, that would be one thing, but there's nothing in image that suggests to me that the woman is of the highest rank of prostitute - but I am not even an informed layman on the subject. This image might make a better illustration for Prostitution in ancient Greece. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 01:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
No, but the image is used in the German article for Neaira, for whom there is no known likeness. There are several other images used in these articles that may be appropriate: Deatonjr 03:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Again: "hetaira" isn't a rank. It's a modern thing. In the ancient greek or roman world nobody would see that this way. There were differences - but not in this way. And the picture is a modern Painting. I used it as illustration in the german article with the same cause, Hamel jused it: it shows a prostitute in front of a trial. Marcus Cyron 10:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am aware - from your comments - that "hetaira" is not a formalized rank. However, you have also stated that "hetairas were prostitutes who were more expensive and on an higher education level." I may very well be wrong here, but it seems to me that such a woman would not normally be depicted as having sex after hanging up the moneybag - that seems to me to be a much more vulgar thing, "wham bam thank you ma'am". From your description (and from the life of Neaira) it seems to me that the relationship would be more subtle - regular support in exchange for regular companionship & sex. In any event, the image caption specifies the woman as a hetaira. Why? What is there in the image that allows the identification of the woman as a hetaira rather than as a streetwalker? jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 14:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
More : On the image page the caption is Customer and a prostitute (a money pouch is hanging on the wall), tondo of a red-figure kylix. Munich, private collection, ARV 923,29.. The more general characterization seems much more defensible. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 17:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Another possibility are the images on the German Wiki : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:NAMA_Courtisane_%26_client.jpg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Griechen12.jpg as well as http://www.hellenica.de/Griechenland/LX/Bild/Hetaere.jpg http://www.androphile.org/preview/museo/Greece/img/greek08.jpg http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/HetaeraeLouvreMyr272.jpg (I don't know about the authenticity or legal status of these last three). jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 19:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Needs serious work on sourcing and prose before it can pass.
Details:
I'm failing this article due to sourcing and prose issues. Please note that the above suggestions are not exhaustive by any means. The article is disjointed and the prose needs some serious work. Also, large numbers of opinions are sourced to either an ancient source or are unsourced. The lede also needs expansion.
If you disagree with my assessment, feel free to bring the article to Wikipedia:Good article reassessment. It's a good start on the article, just needs a lot of work on prose and sourcing before it is ready for GA. Ealdgyth | Talk 16:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The section Conclusion seems unnecessary, especially the final paragraph, which is not a thorough review of the literature but merely mentions a few sources which are available in German (because this is part of the article which came translated directly from the German?)
Discussion of the authorship of the speech is relevant (though could be in the lead section instead?), but there is no evidence given that the academic consensus is that the speech should be considered Pseudo-Demosthenic, rather than authentic, and certainly not all authors on the topic refer to the speech as Pseudo-Demosthenic. Does this claim come from Hamel's book like so much of the rest of the article? Trevett (1992) appears to be a good source for this claim, but I don't have a copy of it on hand, though I can find at least five favourable reviews on JSTOR (though Carey notes that not all of Trevett's methodology is universally accepted: his use of analysis of sentence length has been criticised by e.g. Dover). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.233.97 ( talk) 15:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Making extensive changes in a single edit, so I'm detailing them here:
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 18:35, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: J Milburn ( talk · contribs) 16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Seems like a very interesting topic. I'm happy to offer a review, but it may not be for a few days. Others are of course welcome to chip in before that- it's a collaborative project after all!
Josh Milburn (
talk)
16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I'll offer some more comments another time, but this gives you something to have a look at for now! Really interesting article; I commend you for taking it on. Josh Milburn ( talk) 18:16, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Rebbeca Futo Kennedy, Immigrant Women in Athens: Gender, Ethnicity, and Citizenship in the Classical City, Routledge, 2014. There's a section about Neaira and the way she was treated, from p. 103: "Violence against metic women: The case of Neaira." SarahSV (talk) 02:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | Neaira (hetaera) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
March 15, 2007. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that more is known about
Neaira, a
hetaera who lived during the
4th century BC in
ancient Greece, than any other
prostitute in
classical antiquity? | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article contains a translation of Neaira (Hetäre) from de.wikipedia. |
This is a featured article of the German Wikipedia, and deserves translation.
I've only partially translated the first two sections. There are certainly many errors and inconsistencies. Your input is appreciated. Deatonjr 06:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee 18:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Nikarete took Neaira as her daughter and provided for her "training" as a prostitute. Why is "training" in quotes? If there is a source that says she was "trained" but use of this word is considered dubious, the nature of the controversy should be explained in the article. From the description of the full role of Hetaera in that article's introduction:
it appears to me that the word "training" may be used without reservation or quotation marks.
I have no objection to the other words in quotes in the introductory paragraphs: "bettering" is presumably a literal translation from source documents, but will be unfamiliar to most English-speaking readers; "to fornicate" is a specific phrase (loosely) translating "korinthiazein". jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 15:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Ironically, the primary source for this article is the book written by Yale professor Debra Hamil translated into german. "bettering" probably refers to nikarete's desire to establish her house as something other than a brothel. She purchased the girls as slaves, but raised them as her own, and allowed them to "better" themselves, with the eventual possibility of purchasing their own freedom. Deatonjr 14:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm an owner of Hamels book, but in the german translation (made by professor Kai Brodersen, an well respected man). And I#m the owner of a book with the original source. "training" is an possible word. "Instruction" also would be OK. All the young girls were trained by Nikarete, to getting good prostitutes at the end, so say the original source by Apollodoros. And please do not iuse the article Hetaira to define something. The article is very bad and absolutely not on a modern standard. Actually in the reseach the old meaning oth "hetaira" is hardly controversial and disputed. In the article Aspasia is named as hetaira - this is a bad joke. The ancient aources could be interpreted in this way - but these authors had cultural and political causes to write againt a woman who thinks for herself. She never was an hetaira. So much about the horrible article. To say it in an easy and short way: hetairas were prostitutes who were more expensive and on an higher educationlevel. But normally they were not of influence. Often they were slaves, former slaves or foreingners. The special "Aura" (don't know the englich word for this) is an modern creation. The philologues and hitorians were imperessed by these woman - but it wasn't possible the see them as prostitutes in times were prostitution were a bad thing. So they made them an special version of greek women. The ancient sources don't justified that. And if someone likes to ask mrs Hamel, it's not a big problem. It's possible here. She's a very fine person and give quick answers. I hope, it's to understand, what I'm trying to say. Marcus Cyron 21:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that the scene depicted in the image involves an actual hetaera? If a musical instrument or other prop was depicted, that would be one thing, but there's nothing in image that suggests to me that the woman is of the highest rank of prostitute - but I am not even an informed layman on the subject. This image might make a better illustration for Prostitution in ancient Greece. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 01:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
No, but the image is used in the German article for Neaira, for whom there is no known likeness. There are several other images used in these articles that may be appropriate: Deatonjr 03:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Again: "hetaira" isn't a rank. It's a modern thing. In the ancient greek or roman world nobody would see that this way. There were differences - but not in this way. And the picture is a modern Painting. I used it as illustration in the german article with the same cause, Hamel jused it: it shows a prostitute in front of a trial. Marcus Cyron 10:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am aware - from your comments - that "hetaira" is not a formalized rank. However, you have also stated that "hetairas were prostitutes who were more expensive and on an higher education level." I may very well be wrong here, but it seems to me that such a woman would not normally be depicted as having sex after hanging up the moneybag - that seems to me to be a much more vulgar thing, "wham bam thank you ma'am". From your description (and from the life of Neaira) it seems to me that the relationship would be more subtle - regular support in exchange for regular companionship & sex. In any event, the image caption specifies the woman as a hetaira. Why? What is there in the image that allows the identification of the woman as a hetaira rather than as a streetwalker? jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 14:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
More : On the image page the caption is Customer and a prostitute (a money pouch is hanging on the wall), tondo of a red-figure kylix. Munich, private collection, ARV 923,29.. The more general characterization seems much more defensible. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 17:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Another possibility are the images on the German Wiki : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:NAMA_Courtisane_%26_client.jpg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Griechen12.jpg as well as http://www.hellenica.de/Griechenland/LX/Bild/Hetaere.jpg http://www.androphile.org/preview/museo/Greece/img/greek08.jpg http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/HetaeraeLouvreMyr272.jpg (I don't know about the authenticity or legal status of these last three). jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 19:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Needs serious work on sourcing and prose before it can pass.
Details:
I'm failing this article due to sourcing and prose issues. Please note that the above suggestions are not exhaustive by any means. The article is disjointed and the prose needs some serious work. Also, large numbers of opinions are sourced to either an ancient source or are unsourced. The lede also needs expansion.
If you disagree with my assessment, feel free to bring the article to Wikipedia:Good article reassessment. It's a good start on the article, just needs a lot of work on prose and sourcing before it is ready for GA. Ealdgyth | Talk 16:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The section Conclusion seems unnecessary, especially the final paragraph, which is not a thorough review of the literature but merely mentions a few sources which are available in German (because this is part of the article which came translated directly from the German?)
Discussion of the authorship of the speech is relevant (though could be in the lead section instead?), but there is no evidence given that the academic consensus is that the speech should be considered Pseudo-Demosthenic, rather than authentic, and certainly not all authors on the topic refer to the speech as Pseudo-Demosthenic. Does this claim come from Hamel's book like so much of the rest of the article? Trevett (1992) appears to be a good source for this claim, but I don't have a copy of it on hand, though I can find at least five favourable reviews on JSTOR (though Carey notes that not all of Trevett's methodology is universally accepted: his use of analysis of sentence length has been criticised by e.g. Dover). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.233.97 ( talk) 15:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Making extensive changes in a single edit, so I'm detailing them here:
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 18:35, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: J Milburn ( talk · contribs) 16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Seems like a very interesting topic. I'm happy to offer a review, but it may not be for a few days. Others are of course welcome to chip in before that- it's a collaborative project after all!
Josh Milburn (
talk)
16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I'll offer some more comments another time, but this gives you something to have a look at for now! Really interesting article; I commend you for taking it on. Josh Milburn ( talk) 18:16, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Rebbeca Futo Kennedy, Immigrant Women in Athens: Gender, Ethnicity, and Citizenship in the Classical City, Routledge, 2014. There's a section about Neaira and the way she was treated, from p. 103: "Violence against metic women: The case of Neaira." SarahSV (talk) 02:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)