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I have deleted an extensive block of invisible comments on the Ariosophists. I have no idea why it's there, but this irrelevant material — irrelevant because the minimal influence of the Thule Society is adequately summarised in the visible text and because the other Ariosophists (not demonstrably or directly related in any way to Nazi origins) are covered in the linked Ariosophy article — does nothing for the article except lengthen it to no purpose. People can read very similar material quite openly on Ariosophy. I might re-insert some of this stuff there later on. Gnostrat 01:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Didn't Hitler say ""National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." ( http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html) Not that he was an atheist, either, as is made evident in quotations like these: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".
See, the problem with Hitler's religion is that he grew up in Roman Catholic family but later on he declared himself as atheistic. The problem is because to this days we are not sure what was Hitler's point of view about his own religion.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 08:28, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I would have thought that as Hitler liked to warp Nieztchen philosophy into a kind racial ideology he would have been fundamentally against religion as Nietzche was, I think the best description of Hitler's personal 'religion' is nilhilism, although this seems somewhat a contradiction in terms. Hitler would have probably been influenced by his mother, and at least partly his anti-semitism probably must have come from christians sources (as anti-semitism was largely maintained through balming Jews as 'Christ-killers'). Anti-BS Squad ( talk) 19:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I am currently studying this, Hitler actually attempted to start his own religious movement in Germany called 'The German Faith Movement'. It was non-Christian and was based on sun worship and of course worship of the Nazi party. In his early time in power Hitler did not directly opposed any Christian movements or groups, he even allowed the Catholic church to organise their schools as they saw fit, in return the church stayed out of politics. Later on he tried to unify all Protestant churches into one "Reich Church", this did not work most church goers felt their loyalties lay with their local churches. Some ministers opposed Nazi ideas publicly and were struck from their posts then sent to concentration camps, of course. It is unclear if Hitler truly believed in a God, it is fairly clear that his 'German Faith Movement' was just another vehicle for propaganda and self-promotion. 86.16.139.140 ( talk) 22:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I’ve removed the GA classification from the project banners. The article does not appear to have ever been nominated for a GA review and, consequently, has not been reviewed in accordance with the process. The GA rating appears to have been inappropriately added with this edit, and was apparently never really questioned. The article, in its current state, is not eligible to be a GA given the presence of numerous cleanup banners, any one of which would make the GA nomination a “ quick fail”. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 16:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there any intellectual basis to the use of the term Islamo-Nazi? I thought that it was confined to the world of conservative talk radio where facts and logic are not an essential component of the debate. I was shocked and embarrased to hear it used by Mit Romney during the ABC Republican candidates debate.
Maxdratomic ( talk) 15:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The term was coined within the last few years, either because the term "Islamo-fascist" did not sound alarming enough or because most listeners to conservative talk radio are too uninformed to know what a fascist is. James Woolsley used the term in a 2005 article. Outside the No Spin Zone, very few people would actually use the term. Incidentally the JTF is not a main-stream Jewish organization. The Anti-Defamation League is much more respected. The Four Deuces ( talk) 03:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing in the source or source link that claims Nazi as being a pejorative term. I have removed the subject entirely until better sources are cited. Jeremy D. ( talk) 10:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Jeremy D. ( talk) 10:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
On another note, the statement "The term Nazi is derived from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" is misleading because the second syllable ends after the /o/: German "National-" is /na.tsjo.na:l/ and not /na.tsi.o.na:l/ or whatnot. The sentence as it stands seems to predict /na.tsjo/ rather than /na:.tsi/. The abbreviation is therefore limited to the first four phonemes (/ts/ being an affricate) -- and even that is controversial, since somehow "Nazi" /na:.tsi/ changes its final phoneme from an approximant to a vowel. The real etymology, of course, is probably much more complicated than that, if this website is anything to go by. I'll change it as soon as I have time for it. By the way, the accompanying footnote which gives the pronunciation of NSDAP as "Not-zeo-nahl Zote-seea-list-uh-shuh Doy-cha Ar-byter part-eye" is just plain gibberish. Not every speaker of English pronounces "not" as /nat/, mind you. Use the IPA, this is exactly the kind of cross-linguistic situations it was designed for. JREL ( talk) 20:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
==
Nazism discussion from
Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals==
It appears that the proponent, This is serious mother, has been banned from Wikipedia.-- Cberlet ( talk) 01:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I have inserted an earlier section dealing with the immediate aftermath of Hitler's accession to power, which for some strange reason was deleted. Since the fire allowed Hitler to abolish democratic government and start the concentration camp system, it should be here in a prominent position. Peterlewis ( talk) 17:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this article could use more than 3 images. 8thstar 00:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I have information to add about Nazi economic policy but the article has no "edit this page" tab. What is going on? -Souviens —Preceding unsigned comment added by Souviens ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It is in the lead. We have this dicussion over and over. A tiny handful of libertarians keep trying to rewrite the leads of several articles to reflect a minority POV. Most of the last discussion that went to mediation involved editors now banned from Wikipedia - shall we take it to mediation again?-- Cberlet ( talk) 02:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Just check the page on " National Socialism" We go through this battle everytime Vision Thing decides he can risk another POV edit war. We have had numerous discussions across Wikipeida about this. The majority view should previal. The movement and government known as Nazism was far more than just about national socialism; and there were several other national socialist parties and movements at the time.-- Cberlet ( talk) 15:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
<----The majority of editors have repeatedly made it clear that they reject equating "National Socialism" with just "Nazism." Please see:
Shall we go back to mediation, or would you prefer going directly to arbcom? -- Cberlet ( talk) 00:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
On a somewhat related note, I would like to point out that the quote from the Industrial Employers Association giving their view of Nazism does not belong in the intro, unless you can provide a reason why that particular description of Nazism should be privileged over those given by the large numbers of scholars and historians who have written extensively on Nazism and are not quoted in the intro. -- Nikodemos ( talk) 01:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Real question here is not whether the term "Nazism" is equivalent to the term "National Socialism" but should the intro say "Nazism or National Socialism". Version similar to current has been here at least for a year. Wikipedia guideline on naming conflict within articles is pretty clear on this: Where two or more names are commonly used in the present day for an entity, the names should be given at the start of an article with the article name listed first, then the alternate names in alphabetical order by name (if they are all from the same language) or in order of the name of the language (if they are from different languages). That "National Socialism" is commonly used in the present day can be seen from articles on the same subject in Britannica and Encarta, both of which have named their article "National Socialism". -- Vision Thing -- 18:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
A quick note on my proposed compromise: The source of the controversy lies in the fact that while the Nazis did indeed call themselves National Socialists, they were neither the first nor the only group to use that term. Thus, what we need to do in the introduction is to say that the Nazis called themselves National Socialists without implying that they have exclusive rights to that title. I see now that my initial proposal didn't really achieve this purpose too well, so I will try another one. -- Nikodemos ( talk) 21:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
I have deleted an extensive block of invisible comments on the Ariosophists. I have no idea why it's there, but this irrelevant material — irrelevant because the minimal influence of the Thule Society is adequately summarised in the visible text and because the other Ariosophists (not demonstrably or directly related in any way to Nazi origins) are covered in the linked Ariosophy article — does nothing for the article except lengthen it to no purpose. People can read very similar material quite openly on Ariosophy. I might re-insert some of this stuff there later on. Gnostrat 01:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Didn't Hitler say ""National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." ( http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html) Not that he was an atheist, either, as is made evident in quotations like these: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".
See, the problem with Hitler's religion is that he grew up in Roman Catholic family but later on he declared himself as atheistic. The problem is because to this days we are not sure what was Hitler's point of view about his own religion.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 08:28, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I would have thought that as Hitler liked to warp Nieztchen philosophy into a kind racial ideology he would have been fundamentally against religion as Nietzche was, I think the best description of Hitler's personal 'religion' is nilhilism, although this seems somewhat a contradiction in terms. Hitler would have probably been influenced by his mother, and at least partly his anti-semitism probably must have come from christians sources (as anti-semitism was largely maintained through balming Jews as 'Christ-killers'). Anti-BS Squad ( talk) 19:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I am currently studying this, Hitler actually attempted to start his own religious movement in Germany called 'The German Faith Movement'. It was non-Christian and was based on sun worship and of course worship of the Nazi party. In his early time in power Hitler did not directly opposed any Christian movements or groups, he even allowed the Catholic church to organise their schools as they saw fit, in return the church stayed out of politics. Later on he tried to unify all Protestant churches into one "Reich Church", this did not work most church goers felt their loyalties lay with their local churches. Some ministers opposed Nazi ideas publicly and were struck from their posts then sent to concentration camps, of course. It is unclear if Hitler truly believed in a God, it is fairly clear that his 'German Faith Movement' was just another vehicle for propaganda and self-promotion. 86.16.139.140 ( talk) 22:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I’ve removed the GA classification from the project banners. The article does not appear to have ever been nominated for a GA review and, consequently, has not been reviewed in accordance with the process. The GA rating appears to have been inappropriately added with this edit, and was apparently never really questioned. The article, in its current state, is not eligible to be a GA given the presence of numerous cleanup banners, any one of which would make the GA nomination a “ quick fail”. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 16:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there any intellectual basis to the use of the term Islamo-Nazi? I thought that it was confined to the world of conservative talk radio where facts and logic are not an essential component of the debate. I was shocked and embarrased to hear it used by Mit Romney during the ABC Republican candidates debate.
Maxdratomic ( talk) 15:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The term was coined within the last few years, either because the term "Islamo-fascist" did not sound alarming enough or because most listeners to conservative talk radio are too uninformed to know what a fascist is. James Woolsley used the term in a 2005 article. Outside the No Spin Zone, very few people would actually use the term. Incidentally the JTF is not a main-stream Jewish organization. The Anti-Defamation League is much more respected. The Four Deuces ( talk) 03:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing in the source or source link that claims Nazi as being a pejorative term. I have removed the subject entirely until better sources are cited. Jeremy D. ( talk) 10:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Jeremy D. ( talk) 10:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
On another note, the statement "The term Nazi is derived from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" is misleading because the second syllable ends after the /o/: German "National-" is /na.tsjo.na:l/ and not /na.tsi.o.na:l/ or whatnot. The sentence as it stands seems to predict /na.tsjo/ rather than /na:.tsi/. The abbreviation is therefore limited to the first four phonemes (/ts/ being an affricate) -- and even that is controversial, since somehow "Nazi" /na:.tsi/ changes its final phoneme from an approximant to a vowel. The real etymology, of course, is probably much more complicated than that, if this website is anything to go by. I'll change it as soon as I have time for it. By the way, the accompanying footnote which gives the pronunciation of NSDAP as "Not-zeo-nahl Zote-seea-list-uh-shuh Doy-cha Ar-byter part-eye" is just plain gibberish. Not every speaker of English pronounces "not" as /nat/, mind you. Use the IPA, this is exactly the kind of cross-linguistic situations it was designed for. JREL ( talk) 20:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
==
Nazism discussion from
Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals==
It appears that the proponent, This is serious mother, has been banned from Wikipedia.-- Cberlet ( talk) 01:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I have inserted an earlier section dealing with the immediate aftermath of Hitler's accession to power, which for some strange reason was deleted. Since the fire allowed Hitler to abolish democratic government and start the concentration camp system, it should be here in a prominent position. Peterlewis ( talk) 17:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this article could use more than 3 images. 8thstar 00:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I have information to add about Nazi economic policy but the article has no "edit this page" tab. What is going on? -Souviens —Preceding unsigned comment added by Souviens ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It is in the lead. We have this dicussion over and over. A tiny handful of libertarians keep trying to rewrite the leads of several articles to reflect a minority POV. Most of the last discussion that went to mediation involved editors now banned from Wikipedia - shall we take it to mediation again?-- Cberlet ( talk) 02:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Just check the page on " National Socialism" We go through this battle everytime Vision Thing decides he can risk another POV edit war. We have had numerous discussions across Wikipeida about this. The majority view should previal. The movement and government known as Nazism was far more than just about national socialism; and there were several other national socialist parties and movements at the time.-- Cberlet ( talk) 15:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
<----The majority of editors have repeatedly made it clear that they reject equating "National Socialism" with just "Nazism." Please see:
Shall we go back to mediation, or would you prefer going directly to arbcom? -- Cberlet ( talk) 00:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
On a somewhat related note, I would like to point out that the quote from the Industrial Employers Association giving their view of Nazism does not belong in the intro, unless you can provide a reason why that particular description of Nazism should be privileged over those given by the large numbers of scholars and historians who have written extensively on Nazism and are not quoted in the intro. -- Nikodemos ( talk) 01:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Real question here is not whether the term "Nazism" is equivalent to the term "National Socialism" but should the intro say "Nazism or National Socialism". Version similar to current has been here at least for a year. Wikipedia guideline on naming conflict within articles is pretty clear on this: Where two or more names are commonly used in the present day for an entity, the names should be given at the start of an article with the article name listed first, then the alternate names in alphabetical order by name (if they are all from the same language) or in order of the name of the language (if they are from different languages). That "National Socialism" is commonly used in the present day can be seen from articles on the same subject in Britannica and Encarta, both of which have named their article "National Socialism". -- Vision Thing -- 18:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
A quick note on my proposed compromise: The source of the controversy lies in the fact that while the Nazis did indeed call themselves National Socialists, they were neither the first nor the only group to use that term. Thus, what we need to do in the introduction is to say that the Nazis called themselves National Socialists without implying that they have exclusive rights to that title. I see now that my initial proposal didn't really achieve this purpose too well, so I will try another one. -- Nikodemos ( talk) 21:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)