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What is your source that "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führe" was a Motto? Xx236 ( talk) 08:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Poles, Jews and Czechs who lived in the General Government and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (autonomous Nazi-administered territories)? [1]
-- Tobby72 ( talk) 11:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Under Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a democracy into a dictatorship THAT IS A LIE !!! now how is that even theoretically possible? when germany already was a De facto authoritarian state ruled by emergency decree under president of the weimar republic Paul von Hindenburg so hitler did not turn germany to a dicatorship, germany was already a dictatorship! Peterzor ( talk) 17:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
User:peterzor has been blocked as he has been identified as a sockpuppet. Now perhaps we can improve this page without it going off on unnecessary and irrelevant tangents and edit-wars. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 09:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer is Nazi Germany's Motto Peterzor ( talk) 15:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
While using Evans is ok so far, his views aren't universally shared by all historians. Certainly the degree of participation and support for genocide among German citizens is matter of debate and we should present other than Evans views on the matter. Also the claim that there weren't mass suicides or public displays of grief in 1945 is a bold one and standing in opposition to known other historic research.
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 02:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Malobo's observation that While using Evans is ok so far, his views aren't universally shared by all historians
The article for the most part based on English language sources which tend to downplay or ignore the huge losses of the civilian population in the USSR and Poland.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:48, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
There's already content about the Wehrmacht in war crimes; it's in the section "Wehrmacht". And there's a mention that off-duty soldiers revealed what they saw and did, in the section "The Holocaust". Soldiers looting (and widespread theft of art treasures etc) is mentioned at the bottom of the section "conquest of Europe." The huge loss of life in the USSR is covered in the section "Persecution of other groups". I will amend the section that talks about suicides after I read the sources you have posted. -- Dianna ( talk) 15:11, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The subsecion doesn't explain responsibility - Nazi euthanasia victims and Allied rapes victims are listed in one paragraph. Xx236 ( talk) 08:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Who exactly "attempted to get word to the outside world as to what was happening"? Xx236 ( talk) 09:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 18:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take this review. Initial comments to follow in the next 1-3 days. Thanks in advance for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 18:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I've begun here by reading through the peer review, and given the level of detail there the commenters focused on, I don't imagine this will have any difficulty meeting GA standards. I've made it perhaps halfway through the article in the comments below; hope to finish later this afternoon/evening. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 19:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
A few tiny things:
The article's a little long. This isn't a problem for an article of this importance (for GA anyway), but FWIW, here's some sentences I think could be cut or in some cases moved to explanatory footnotes. Don't worry about replying to any of these, it's not an issue for GA-- just for you to take or leave.
Continuing under a new header for clarity. This is really a terrific article, btw; it does an excellent job of covering social and cultural aspects of Nazi Germany as well as the better known military/atrocity angles. I learned quite a lot from reading it (hope that doesn't disqualify me as its reviewer). Please feel free to revert any of the tweaks I've made directly to the text if you see any you disagree with. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 23:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Small suggestions:
Possible cuts: Again, these are side suggestions only, and not relevant for GA. Feel free to take or leave, no response needed unless you're interested in discussing.
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | |
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2c. it contains no original research. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | On a superficial pass, the article appears complete; also, article has received extensive review without persuasive complaints of omission. |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | At 78kb, article is a little long, but not unreasonably long for a major topic. I suggested some very small cuts above, but there's very little fat here. |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | Talk page is active, as you'd expect for a top-importance article, but no significant warring. |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | |
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7. Overall assessment. | Pass as GA |
Of course there's nothing to stop us sharing the views of German and Austrian legislators on the publication of Horst-Wessel-Lied; there's also nothing to stop us from disregarding non-ubiquitous laws that have no place in countries without a history of Nazism or Nazi occupation. It is true that Horst-Wessel-Lied will be a "top hit" for neo-Nazis, but I fail to see how this is of any relevance here. It's an historical piece of music - it's not something that portrays the Third Reich in an overly or unnecessarily positive light (except in the eyes of a German-fluent neo-Nazi) - and, dare I say it - it's less offensive than some of the photographs on this article. I myself find the photo of starving prisoners 'offensive' - but it's history, and it shouldn't be watered down for anyone. I agree with what Boson has said in that it's likely that only a small number of people will have any interest in Horst-Wessel-Lied, and I agree that a link to the song on the article for Horst-Wessel-Lied would be equally appropriate, but I stand against deletion of the OGG partly out of principle (let's not water down history), and partly because the argument for removal just isn't strong enough; articles on countries (and 'periods' within countries - even the evil ones) have sound files in their infoboxes. Surlyduff50 ( talk) 20:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The Horst Wessel Lied drags this article into the gutter, the song is at the top of the hit list for neo-Nazis. In Germany it is banned. Get rid of this eyesore.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The fact that some might find Horst-Wessel-Lied "offensive" is not sufficient grounds for removing the Deutschlandlied and Horst-Wessel-Lied OGG files. The fact that the piece is illegal in Germany is also of no relevance, given that we're discussing the English article. It is offensive to some - yes - but it is in no way obscene, graphic or in breach of Wikipedia's rules. A /ton/ of content on Wikipedia will prove offensive to certain groups. This is supposed to be an objective article; Horst-Wessel-Lied was at the centre of Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are plenty who find "The Internationale" OGG file on the Soviet Union article "offensive", too. If you disagree with me, then fine - but you'd surely disagree with the presence of "The Internationale" at the same time - given that it too would prove offensive to, say, the victims of Stalinism? Surlyduff50 ( talk) 21:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Even if policy permits us to include a song here, that does not mean that we are obliged to do so. We should not conflate the issue of editorial judgement with what policy requires. There is a reason for the prohibition applying to the distribution of the Horst-Wessel-Lied, and there is nothing to stop us, as responsible editors, sharing the views of the German and Austrian legislatures on the inappropriateness of its publication without accompanying commentary. In my view, it is sufficient to provide a link to the article on the song, where such detailled commentary is possible; the few people reading this article who need to know more about the Horst-Wessel-Lied can click on the link. So I
Of course there's nothing to stop us sharing the views of German and Austrian legislators on the publication of Horst-Wessel-Lied; there's also nothing to stop us from disregarding non-ubiquitous laws that have no place in countries without a history of Nazism or Nazi occupation. It is true that Horst-Wessel-Lied will be a "top hit" for neo-Nazis, but I fail to see how this is of any relevance here. It's an historical piece of music - it's not something that portrays the Third Reich in an overly or unnecessarily positive light (except in the eyes of a German-fluent neo-Nazi) - and, dare I say it - it's less offensive than some of the photographs on this article. I myself find the photo of starving prisoners 'offensive' - but it's history, and it shouldn't be watered down for anyone. I agree with what Boson has said in that it's likely that only a small number of people will have any interest in Horst-Wessel-Lied, and I agree that a link to the song on the article for Horst-Wessel-Lied would be equally appropriate, but I stand against deletion of the OGG partly out of principle (let's not water down history), and partly because the argument for removal just isn't strong enough; articles on countries (and 'periods' within countries - even the evil ones) have sound files in their infoboxes. Surlyduff50 ( talk) 17:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
From the lede:
All? Was the Gestapo responsible for all that?? The assertion regarding the Gestapo should be replaced with the link to the RSHA (Reich Main Security Office); because the Gestapo was just one agency of several that had almost similar roles rooting out dissent within Nazi Germany, and later occupied Europe. Furthermore this sentence suggests the Gestapo took precedence for such activity (being backed up by the SS) as with inclusion of the conjunction "and". BUT they were not separate, because the Gestapo was just one agency (the others being the Sicherheitsdienst, Sicherheitspolizei, Kriminalpolizei) of the SS-Reichssicherheitshauptamt that was part of the Allgemeine SS.
This statement is so ambiguous it is frankly meaningless. Pure Pop history 101. I pity the fools who copied that one for their school essays! 86.160.188.62 ( talk) 17:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
You reduce the workers to almost animals. Some of them belonged to anti-Nazi organizations, collected intelligence data, see Olimp (organization). Xx236 ( talk) 11:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
I have reversed Cherubinrule's recent edit - none of the books listed in Further Reading were used to prepare the article, even as general references, so they should not be listed in the bibliography. They need to be in a separate section. WP:FURTHER -- Diannaa ( talk) 15:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Cherubinirules has again been tinkering with the book lists, and I have reversed his edit. I Think he did not see my post here on the article talk page on this matter, so I have posted my rationale for retention of the present layout on his user talk page. -- Diannaa ( talk) 14:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It's Encyklopedia Powszechna PWN. Xx236 ( talk) 06:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
There is an ongoing RFC that may be of interest to editors in this article. Talk:Gun_control#RFC Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
It is a gross understatement -if not a travesty - to sum up the oppression of the Catholic Church and other Christians as merely some were "disciplined, arrested and put in jail." This is far from the truth, nor anywhere remotely correct. Thousands upon thousands were murdered, spent years in concentration camps -not "jail"- and suffered greatly under this nightmare simply for holding to their faith and/or defending the Jewish people. This current summary is woefully short of the reality.
And, the "handy work" of the Nazis to harass the Catholic Church began in the late winter early spring of 1933 - not 1935. Of the 20 odd books I have read on this topic from mainstream historians notes this. So . . . . what is the concern bringing this to light with RS citation? ( talk • contribs) 19:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC) Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 19:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Diannaa- Good to hear from you. Well, in this very Article the Section, "The Outbreak of War", cites (Evans 2006) stating that by the end of 1939 - less than four full months after the invasion of Poland, 65,000 were targeted prior to the invasion, then killed within the intelligentsia - among them-clergy. Poland, then and now, is predominately - Catholic Christians.
In the wiki Article covering the concentration camp of Dachau it discusses the "priests barracks" where 1034 Catholic clergy and some 30 Protestant pastors met their deaths, citing Ian Kershaw "The Nazi Dictatorship, Problems and Perspectives . . . . " 4th edition and others. Further, in Robert P. Ericksen's, "Complicity in the Holocaust", p. 109, he writes, "perhaps as many as 1,000 Polish priests were murdered for fear they might be potential leaders of a future rebellion." Therefore, the 'testimony' of just these three sources alone places the number over 2034+ at a minimum. And, we can go on and on. It is in the aggregate - rather than a single source - that the picture comes into focus.
Last, in Robert A. Krieg's, "Catholic Theologians in Nazi Germany", states that the powers given to Hitler as Chancellor - due to the Reichstag Fire Decree of Feb. 28, 1933 - were used/abused to require civil servants to members of the Nazi Party in the states where they had control. Clearly, harassment to all. Then on p. 7 he states, "During June 1933, Nazis waged a strong anti-Catholic campaign ....", clearly long before 1935, or the signing and ratification of the Concordat. So, I ask again. Why is this not reflected in this summary? Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 23:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not well enough informed on what Hitler did to Christians to comment on the content, but what I do know is that Christianity is not a race. The content is in the wrong place. HiLo48 ( talk) 00:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow editors- thank you for your input. Whether this topic is under "Society", or otherwise, seems of modest concern. Our focus s/b historical accuracy. In reverse order? The Concordat was a goal of the Catholic Church since the start of the Weimar Republic in 1919 - not simply an ad hoc response to Nazism. Was it PR? Well, that may have been so for Hitler - but not the Catholic Church. Was it to protect its "power"? If by "power" you mean maintaining control over its institutions? Yes, that's on the mark. As for the youth groups and lay organizations? That was never fully resolved-it was a constant bone of contention between Berlin and Rome post the treaty being ratified and until the end of the war. It's unfortunate as well, Kierzek, that your link to "Catholicism" is a discussion of the concept/notion of the word catholic in Christianity - not the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany. Annoying -I know, but . . . . it is what it is. The Article that covers this topic in depth is the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany.
In response to Rjensen? You're entitled to your POV. All that was pointed out above is founded in RS citations of respected scholars. What are you offering other than a vague, "I'm not convinced" based on "leaders" not being murdered? If by leaders you mean: bishops, or the pope? Yes, that's correct. But, to have done so would have caused rebellion in the German military. The Nazis were ruthless-not stupid. Yet, many Christian leaders were murdered for resisting founded upon their faith, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or the religious philosopher, Edith Stein And, many others like the priests mentioned. As well, being sent to a Nazi concentration camp goes a touch beyond mere "harassment".
Lastly, how do we define: confiscation of land, property, printing presses, publications, radio stations, the shuttering of seminaries, monasteries, convents and schools, which the Nazis had done, other than suppression? Thank you Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 02:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Understood- this subject is highly complex and full of subtle nuance, which require sorting through to "get it right". This much I've learned over the years. Until next time. All the best. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 03:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- Once more, you're entitled. Do not wish to be appear to be "combative". The Nazis involved themselves in the Civil War in Spain for a host of reasons. Priming their military, and fighting their arch rival - the Communists among several. The Communists were a major force in Central Europe since the 1920's and were seeking further expansion via Spain. Not that complicated when you get to the fundamentals. Was Communism synonymous in the Nazi mind to the Jewish people? Yes. And,yes, many priests and religious were murdered in cold bold by the Communists there.
To say the Nazis were there to "protect the Catholic Church" as its primary motive, or even truly a viable point ? I'm sorry, but that's a 'straw-man' debate. A connecting of dots that do not stand up to the hard facts. Was the Catholic Church encouraging opposition of the Communists? Yes, without a doubt. But, for the same motivation as the Nazis? Categorically - no. The Catholic Church has been denouncing Communism sine 1891 with the publication of Rerum Novarum when Hitler was an infant and Franco was a one year old. This is like stating the Ocean is wet because the water is blue.
Robert Krieg, Robert Ericksen and Ian Kershaw are not RS's? Okay. Have any of you been to Dachau? If you have not. In the museum there? What I just put forward? Is in the displays and education kiosks. And, in the Article on Dachau? The numbers are sourced regarding the # priests who died there: 1034. Ericksen tells us around 1000 priests were murdered during invasion of Poland. So . . . . a touched confused on that point. Is not Dachau in Germany? Was not Poland a Nazi territory? Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 04:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Good Morning - Just to wrap up this whole issue. Rjensen? It's okay. But, there is not a requirement for any of us to write a virtual treatise to make a point;willing to work with you - not do your homework for you. Read more.
Yes, the Vatican had a vested interest in Spain during the Civil War there. Just as they did when the Russian Empire fell - for the very same reason. An atheistic power was brutally enforcing its will. And, it is clear that the Nazis walked more cautiously in their own homeland for a litany of reasons. Yet, they showed their contempt when the risks were low i.e., Poland and Eastern Europe.
Just what part of Evans (this Articles' own reference) statement that 65,000 were killed/executed soon after the invasion of Poland in cold blood, pre-meditated murder - and among them clergy confuses you? And, there is no mystery that- overwhelmingly- Poland was - Roman Catholic. This apparent denial of history, or innocent ignorance, is no excuse to belittle the memory of the thousands of Christians that were targeted and murdered by the Nazis because of their faith based resistance. I'll leave it to your conscience to work that out. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 15:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- If we're speaking of Germany "proper" (as in, pre-1936 borders) what you state is correct. We agree. Inside Germany "proper" the verifiable figures are less than 1100 +-. Outside the borders of Germany 'proper' (as in, the Nazi Empire )-particularly at its peak ? Then, the figures soar dramatically, leaving Spain aside altogether.
With that, it's an injustice - in my view- to summarize the fate of Christians inside Germany who resisted, and assisted the Jewish people based on their faith, as merely harassed, disciplined, arrested and jailed. This language places their fate no worse than a fraternity party gone bad. They were beaten, murdered, dispossessed and placed in concentration camps left to die. This was the fate of at least 1100 between 1934-1945 that can be reasonably verified inside Germany. Again, the Dachua priests barracks being the obvious example. This is what I'm stating. Hope you see the merit of this position. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 22:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- These are verified historical facts. If you visit the, Catholic Church and Nazi Germany Article you will see the data on the Dachua priests barracks. Perhaps, I was seeing an illusion at the Dachua museum with the list of over 1000 priests that perished there. More broadly - if you visit the Article Holocaust victims and read the Section, religious persecution you'll read the following: 2,000 Jehovah Witnesses were placed in concentration camps in Germany; thousands of clergy were killed. 3000 of the Polish clergy murdered - 1992 in concentration camps. 2600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries killed in concentration camps in Germany, 1034 from Dachau alone.
Is this body count sufficient to count as an RS? Or, do we need more? Here is a sampling of German Christians in Germany who where murdered in Germany for their faith: Josef Wirmer - hung. Willi Graf-head of Catholic Youth Groups and member of the White Rose-beheaded. Maria Restituta - beheaded for placing a crucifix in a classroom and writing a poem denouncing Hitler. This is not to mention the other more infamous individual cases such as, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Does this look anything like simply being "disciplined" - "arrested" and "jailed"? We can go on and on. And, these are the cases we know about. I'm not interested - just as are you- in empty debate. Again, I hope you see the merits of the position. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 22:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- This is, well, pointless. No matter what objective evidence is placed before you it's as if it does not exist. I offered respected RS's such as Krieg, and Ericksen and several links within Wikipedia that already provide further RS citations. Yet, you have provided not a single RS that denies or refutes any of what has been put forward. Can you produce a single citation that states no German Christians (including Catholics) were murdered by the Nazis in Germany for their faith based resistance, or placing themselves at great risk to assist the Jewish people motivated by that faith? If not? Then, what does that tell us? We need to move on now - if you can not produce this. Of the 11 or so concentration camps in Germany on any given day from 1936/7-45 you will have found thousands of Christians there because of their faith based resistance. I challenge you to produce one historian of credit that refutes this historical reality. And, I will let what has been put forward speak for itself. As for Catholics? An incredible statement on your part. So, if we're to take what you're implying, then Roman Catholics were - what-exactly? Not that I have put forward Catholics exclusively here. You have singled out Catholics. Please feel free to elaborate, however. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 04:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- Not much coming forward. Or, can we look forward to more vague repeated circular language of denial of history void of a single quote of an RS? I think there is a phrase that is useful in circumstances such as this. It goes like this Rjensen. You say, "You're right - I'm wrong. Let's move on." Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 11:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Editors- First, thank you Diannaa for adding "concentration camps" to the list of horrors that Christians in Germany who resisted based on faith to the Section under discussion. And, Kierzek for pointing to the edit. Yet, this is a start - not fully complete. They were dispossessed, families torn apart and thousands murdered in the most brutal inhumane/ unjust fashion conceivable. This is not to take away - at all- from the fate of others. But, what is the "message sent" to omit one concise sentence? Are not readers entitled to know? Are not future generations to hear the full truth?
Rjensen- I'm not at loss;your position lacks merit thus far. Your complaint that I have not provided RS's is just - well- not true. I provided several, one of them existing in the Article from Evans. And-once again- several Wikipedia links with numerous RS's that support what is being offered. While you have yet to produce a single RS quote to refute. Not a very solid argument. Not only this, I offered links to individual cases of those - yes, murdered by the Nazis in Germany for resisting based on their faith; each Article providing an abundance of RS citations in their own right.
This all started with the point about Christians - not only Catholics. Every historian of this period knows 2000+ Jevovah's Witnesses (from Germany in Germany) were murdered in cold blood for refusing to compromise their faith. Are they not Christians? Every historian knows that well over 1000 catholic priests died in the Dachua concentration camp - in Germany. They even have a memorial plaque on the grounds for Pete's sakes! With their names on it. Were they all there for resisting based on faith alone? No, but most were.
And, this notion of proving the motivation of the executioner is -again- off the mark that is, whether its political, or religious persecution. The real question is what motivated the victim to resist in the first instance. Yes? Politics, or their faith? The motivation of the executioner is secondary. In the eyes of the victim resisting based on faith? You can be sure they understood what was really happening. They literally staked their lives on it.
My motivation is not ideological, political, theological, or an agenda of some sort. My motivation is -justice and impartial objectivity. And, no more. To deny this fact based history is a grave injustice wether you have a bone to pick with any particular religion, or faith tradition, is not relevant to the objective reality of what actually- happened. With that, yet more victims of the Nazi nightmare who were killed, no, murdered or died in a concentration camp because of their faith based resistance to Nazism - in Germany- from Wikipedia with an overabundance of RS citations in each:
Paul Schneider (pastor) Protestant pastor, Maria Skobtsova Russian Orthodox nun, poet and French Resistance member, took the place of a Jewish woman about to taken to the gas chambers in a concentration camp- in Germany. Wladyslaw Goral - bishop murdered in a concentration camp - in Germany, Titus Brandsma catholic priest and renowned scholar of philosophy murdered in Dachua by lethal injection in a "medical experiment", and there is plenty more where this came from -sadly. Now, I place the rest on the conscience of the good editors of this Article. And, have said my piece. Thank you all. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 23:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
How Catholic Church was being destroyed on Polish territories annexed by Germany during the war can be read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Religion -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
MyMoloboaccount - Thank you! Very much on the mark. There were some Christians (using that label loosely) -nor singling out Catholics, or the "Catholic Church"- who adapted: the Racial policy of Nazi Germany - the source of this hateful "subhuman" concept of the Slavic people and others. And, there was a movement called Positive Christianity among the Nazis who explicitly and formally incorporated this racism into their "faith tradition"; composed mostly of lax Protestants of northern Germany and some former Catholics. It is also true and correct that nationalism played a part.
As for the Catholic Church? The leadership (meaning the bishops as a body) formally denounced this racism. And, among the Protestants-most notably - the Confessing Church had done the same. The Orthodox Churches also published similar documents and positions. Like most history- we prefer simple answers to complex issues, but if we're seeking truth we have to contend with the complexity of the human experience. No escaping it. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 00:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
To give you a second opinion, it seems to me that you, Integrityandhonesty are wrong on this issue, at least as far as THIS article is concerned. Lets take one of your statements as an example:
--lucid 178.6.103.153 ( talk) 10:54, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello Anonymous 178.6.103.153
The topic and subject is/was the section already existent in the Article titled:Oppression of Christians.
The exclusion of non-christian faith traditions, (i.e, Muslims - or others) and so on is because it is not the topic. Whereas, you make an indirect valid point. Why stop at Christians as to faith based (motivated) resistance and their oppression by the Nazis?
In the case of Poland, it was and still is, a people who - in the main - profess to be Catholic. As stated, this is not to saying this is the only Christian faith tradition then, or now, that resisted in Poland, or elsewhere. Or, that Catholics were the only people to resisted based on their belief in the existence of God, Christian, Jewish or otherwise. Never stated that. My input was to address the topic at hand- which was - and is, the dilution of the reality that thousands of Christians were murdered by the Nazis precisely because they were motivated by their Christian faith. More to the point? The point in its entirety is to state it's unjust to reduce this history to a mere foot note that Christians were merely arrested, or harassed, but indeed, were murdered in pre-mediated cold bold, precisely because of their Christian faith inspired resistance. And, I offered multiple RS sources in my submission.
In point in fact, I specifically stated this and offered examples of non-Catholics who resisted as well who resisted to the point of being murdered. So, not certain where you're taking us. Nor, did I state atheists, or agnostics were/are less inclined to resist for ethical, or moral reasons, objective crimes against humanity regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic heritage, or vocation as in your analogy of your beloved plumber. So, I struggle to see your point in response to what was actually stated in this regard.
Further, there are many well documented examples of many people of faith who were murdered precisely because of their faith based (motivation) resistance to the Nazis. Their own surviving writings, the Nazis own surviving documents and first account witnesses are in the thousands, such as Maximilian Kolbe. Nor, was there an attempt in any form or fashion to "prove" Catholics vs others ('religious' or not) were more "Jew saving"- as you put it - than any others. Where do you see that in what was submitted? With all this, there are literally hundreds of scholarly works and books on this topic. I suggest you read a few and learn for yourself that thousands upon thousands of Jews were spared the fate of the Holocaust by people of faith precisely because of their faith. And, many were oppressed and paid with their lives in the process of their faith based resistance.
As for diminishing, or dismissing, the pain of others? Once more - the topic was explicit and exclusively about Christians as the section is titled Oppression of Christians. And, it was stated very clearly that this was not in any manner to take from the suffering of others - period. But, the injustice of grossly understating that Christians suffered explicitly because of their faith. If you visit the Article Catholic Church and Nazi Germany or Religion in Nazi Germany you'll discover an abundance of 'exceptionally good' RS's' to the point raised, that indeed there were powerful forces within Nazism motivated and desired to dismantle Christianity. Thank you for your comments - while I challenge now a legitimate refutation (with 'exceptionally good' RS's) that Christians did not suffer persecution under Nazi rule and thousands murdered because of their faith based resistance. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 18:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Integrityandhonesty,
"The topic and subject is/was the section already existent in the Article titled:Oppression of Christians."
"The exclusion of non-christian faith traditions, (i.e, Muslims - or others) and so on is because it is not the topic."
"In the case of Poland, ..."
--lucid 188.109.163.86 ( talk) 06:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello Anonymous 188.109.163.86?
There seems to be a bit of confusion here. There is no attempt to suggest this Article is "Anti-Catholic/Christian" but rather pointing out that it was an injustice to characterize the fate of many Christians (including in Nazi Germany) who suffered being murdered for their faith based resistance. Once more, if you visit the Articles referenced you will discover this, which within themselves provide a cornucopia of RS's. This has been addressed by the way. Weeks ago just to let you know. Nor, am I (or others) concerned about 'winning arguments' but getting to objective history.
Indeed, there was a response to 'proving' faith based resistance. Did I not express that we have surviving documents of the victims themselves? Were not several Article references offered for you to visit? Not sure where you're going here either. What manner of evidence does one need beyond the words of the victims themselves, testimony of eyewitnesses and the Nazis as to why and what events led to their murder? Beyond this, it becomes circular. When a conversation becomes circular there is usually an ideology to blame. Not interested in that either - but seeking and supporting the truth.
To suggest thousands were not murdered by the Nazis in Germany and throughout the Nazi Empire because of their faith inspired resistance is to deny reality and a great injustice to objective history. It's that plain and simple. Like the noses on our faces Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 12:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Thousands were, yes, arrested, and harassed in Germany. But, also, dispossessed, tortured and murdered. Thousands of them - not simply a rare exceptional 'saint'. And, it was their faith that motivated them in most cases. As an example Erich Klausener and others I have already pointed out above. The most clear case is the Jehovah Witnesses who resolutely refused to recognize Hitler as the Nazis required. In Germany - it is estimated 2,500 to 5000 were killed for this alone.
Of course - we can all agree- most 'Christians' (including some/many priests) did not resist as they were called to. Otherwise, none of this would have - perhaps -happened in the first instance. This only tells us few had the courage - or sincerely believed what they professed - to live out their faith in the face of a brute thug, and when much is on the line to 'push back'. So, it begs the question. We're they truly following the example of Christ? The answer is clearly - no. As Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. You Christians are so not like your Christ." But then, he was murdered by a Hindu extremist. Yet, we should be slow to judge. In the face of raw murderous industrialized thuggery reason goes out the window.
This being objectively true - in no manner should this fact take a single ounce or iota away from those who had, and clearly those that had paid handsomely - in the thousands - in Germany. And, history should preserve and honor their memory. Enough said. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 01:32, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
In part Territorial changes is written: "The Saarland was made part of Czechoslovakia" Shouldn't be there France instead of Czechoslovakia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helldix ( talk • contribs) 17:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
The Saarland prior to being incorporated into the Federal Republic of Germany was a French Protectorate, but it was never annexed by France.
JWULTRABLIZZARD (
talk)
21:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
@Binksternet. Should we then remove " E pluribus unum" from the USA article? Or the "(popular)" and "(unofficial)" anthems from German Empire? etc. -- Director ( talk) 19:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think anyone disagrees that "ein rich" was A motto, but putting it into the inforbox implies it was The motto, which I think is unsupported, even with the current ref. Gaijin42 ( talk) 18:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I have removed a large addition by Ozhistory about religion. My opinion is that a thousand-word addition on this topic gives it undue weight (increasing the article size from 12,400 words to 13,400 words). It makes the section on persecution of the Christian Churches more than triple the size (1510 words versus 439 words) of the section on persecution of the Jews, which was the core thing the Nazis did. An off-topic addition this size could possibly even jeopardise its status as a Good Article, as this article should be a summary of key points without going into too much detail. Perhaps the material could be added to Religion in Nazi Germany instead? I would be interested to see opinions of other editors. Thanks -- Diannaa ( talk) 14:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Germany's war in the East was based on Hitler's long-standing view that Jews were the great enemy of the German people and that Lebensraum was needed for Germany's expansion. He focused on Eastern Europe, aiming to defeat Poland and the Soviet Union and remove or kill the resident Jews and Slavs
"Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a totalitarian state where nearly all aspects of life were controlled by the state." That in the first paragraph, to avoid redundancy and to get more to the point, should be written as: "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a totalitarian state where nearly all aspects of life were controlled by the Nazi Party." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.126.27 ( talk) 22:18, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The issue is whether to portray the era as one of statism or one-party dictatorship. The ideology of the party is probably more the issue than the statism, since statism was common among the great powers of Europe anyway. All of the Fascists and Communists were statists, and the Nazis likewise. Furthermore, it must be stressed that party loyalty resulted in treason to the Weimar state--Reichstag Fire et al, so statism was not exactly the point of Nazi Germany, nor a point of difference from Weimar, or from Prussian Germany before, etc. Political affiliation defined Germany at this time, regardless of official state identification with Nazi party. It is strange, however, that the article is not called the Greater German Reich, when that is the official name, otherwise we would be reading the title of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or Soviet Union article as Communist Russia or Red Russia as opposed to White Russia. Nazi Germany is a political description for the article that does stress the partisan identity of Germany at the time, no less than Communist Russia would, had it been chosen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.126.27 ( talk) 16:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Reread the quote. It clearly makes the case for statist control of the population. Because statism was hardly unique to Nazi Germany, it begs the case for a rewording. The description should read more like the Great Purge by Stalin, for political supremacy over the people, rather than that the state in and of itself simply bossed people around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.126.27 ( talk) 19:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Did nazi germany have a national motto and if so which one? 83.180.210.160 ( talk) 19:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
we can resolve the issue here instead of edit warring 83.180.210.160 ( talk) 19:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
they may have, but we need sourcing to determine if so and which one, which we do not have. For example, here are other phrases which are refereed to in reliable sources as "the nazi motto" (Used in the sense of "The phrase X" (none of which are the "official motto"
And I could find many more quite easily. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:30, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
The issue of a national motto has been repeatedly discussed since May 2013. I have checked and found no reliable sources that name any one motto as the national motto of Nazi Germany. The IP who opened this RFC is very likely banned user User:Chaosname, as the IP geolocates to his known location. He most recently socked under username Peterzor. -- Diannaa ( talk) 20:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Many slogans were used by the Nazis but the main was Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer literally translated into One People (Aryans) One State (Greater German Reich) One Leader (Hitler).-- Sphere1994 ( talk) 16:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I've edited text into the article "At the same time Nazi propaganda created the concept of "race defilement" ( Rassenschande) to justify the need for a restrictive law." The reason I've added it is rather simple, after the laws came intact this was the official law against it and it is worth mentioning, it is found on almost anything to do with Nazi Germany articles since it was a prominent key of Nazism ideology.
@ My apologies Diannaa the information is not from the cited Evans book (I have put a full stop in between that and the other sentence that is cited for Evan's work).-- Windows66 ( talk) 19:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
That's no problem, I seen the source myself via Google books and it does in fact mention this which I was unaware of, thanks for adding this bit in.
Should this not be re-worded:
"These laws initially prohibited sexual relations and marriages between Aryans and Jews and were later extended to "Gypsies, Negroes or their bastard offspring"."
to:
These laws initially prohibited sexual relations and marriages at first between Aryans and Jews but was later extended to "Gypsies, Negroes or their bastard offspring".
Would this not make more sense?-- Windows66 ( talk) 12:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
That's better, thanks for the minor edit. I did not actually know that about Google books ten times from your IP to encourage you to buy the book, I guess you learn something new everyday. :D!-- Windows66 ( talk) 22:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
someone changed the intro of nazi germany from the original which is better:
to this:
the first is better and is more good and simple Ionchari ( talk) 19:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
"Not only were the Jews racially categorised, but German citizens were also classified according to how Nordic/Aryan they were."
This bit of text has no source and from all my reading and studying of this era it appears that this is not true. If you look at the racial Nuremberg Laws of Nazi Germany there is no mention of anything to do with physical appearance of the citizen but rather their ancestry and that is all that mattered. Only Europeans "Aryans" were able to be citizens of the Reich but again there is no mention of the physical look of one, the Nazis were well aware of the different sub-races within Europe and if you look at the top Nazi leaders there is hardly much resemblance between say Hitler and Goebbels (Hitler had blue eyes, Goebbels had brown eyes) but neither of them were viewed any higher or less than each other. Racial Nazi theorists also recognized all the different sub-races and categorized Germans into different sub-races such as Nordic and Alpine but they were not viewed higher than the other. While Himmler was certainly pro-Nordic (despite his own appearance) again there is no mention of "Nordics only". In fact there were many people who identified themselves as Jewish or were of Jewish descent with "Nordic looks" but this was not taken into account, physical appearance was not relevant in Nazi Germany. I will put a citation needed for this text as it seems to be incorrect.-- Windows66 ( talk) 12:21, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Diannaa, it just seems as though nowhere can confirm that German citizens (whether Germans themselves or "related blood") were judged on their appearance of being Nordic. Heydrich had a Nordic appearance but certainly was not viewed more highly than say Hitler. Most certainly there existed a stereotype "Jewish look" by Nazi propaganda but nothing suggest that Germans who were non-Nordic were viewed as not the same as Nordic Germans. It also says "Not only were the Jews racially categorised" which is also incorrect as either one was an Aryan, Jew or Mischlinge - there were no bits in between, apart from what is irrelevant in what we are discussing is that some Jews and Mischlinges were declared "honorary Aryans".
@Gaijin42 - that is not about German citizens though and them being categorized by their appearance of how "Nordic" one was. As you are aware, the Nazis wanted to reclaim all the people belonging to the "German race" and the people who looked Nordic were viewed as more than likely of Germanic descent, not all people who were Nordic and were tested for their "racial examination" got the so-called pass of being racially valuable by the Nazis. Many Germans were reclaimed that were not Nordic too.-- Windows66 ( talk) 17:00, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I've put a citation template on the text but if someone wants to remove it then go for it as that is what I also propose. Citizens of the Reich were never determined by their physical appearance.
@Kierzek - But the citizens of the Reich only had to prove their Aryan background, Nordic was irrelevant. Although the Aryan master race ideal stereotyped image was Nordic but not standard or essential.-- Windows66 ( talk) 18:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Kierzek, Windows66 and Diannaa - The statement did not claim that German citizens were judged by their physical appearance. It said they had to prove how German/Nordic/Aryan they were. This is an irrefutable fact. Not sure if you are aware of this or not but Germanic ancestry and Nordic/Aryan are related according to the Nazi understanding of the world. (See for instance: George L. Mosse, The Crisis of German Ideology: Intellectual Origins of the Third Reich. New York: Howard Fertig, 1999.) So what you are contending is essentially semantics. The reason Nordic and not merely Germanic heritage applies is that it was suitable for a German to marry an Englishman or somebody with roots in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, or Holland as they were considered racial cousins (Nordic/Aryan) despite that they were not German. For more on the particular topic of racial categorization, see: Eric Ehrenreich: The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0-253-34945-3 or Michael Burleigh and Wolfgang Wippermann. The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991 ( ISBN 0-521-39114-8), especially pp. 23-43 where Burleigh relates how in the context of Nazi Germany, nearly everything was about the "Volk" which in the community of the Third Reich meant race. (You could actually re-insert the sentence and refer to those pages in Burleigh and Wippermann's book). As you know, Hilter was obsessed with racial purity and avoiding ethnic pollution, hence the measure to identify Germans and distinguish them from Jews. Think for a moment of the number of instances where the Germans use racial delineations and the profound number of linguistic expressions in German in this regard: Rassengenossen (racial comrade), Volksgenossen (ethnic comrades), Volksgemeinschaft (ethnic community) Volksseele (soul of the people), Volkskörper (ethnic body politic), Rassenstaat (racial state), Rassenstolz (racial pride), Rassenpolitik (racial politics), Rassenschutz (racial protection) and of course, Rassenschande (despoliation or defilement of the race). To think that German citizens were not likewise categorized is defied by the mere existence of these words in the LTI (Lingua Tertii Imperii)- Language of the Third Reich (borrowing from Victor Klemperer here).
Another thing for you take a look at the Nazi use of the Ahnenpass to establish legitimate Germanic/Nordic/Aryan bloodlines. For those "wishing to join the SS - this went even further as they had to submit a detailed "Sippentafel" to prove purity but I will forego an explication hereby for the sake of brevity. Just suffice it to say that it went deeper into the historical genealogy than even the Ahnenpass. So for you to say that the Reich did not racially categorize its own people, is incorrect. Otherwise, why would it be necessary for pairs to be married to have to prove their ancestral purity - see: Der Ahnenpaß des Ehepaares. Verlag für Standesamtswesen, Berlin 1939. Both the Ahnenpass and the Familienstammbuch (another important component in establishing suitable racial identity for those in the Volksgemeinschaft) were about establishing racial purity for German citizens. Once you have reviewed these, you can also look at the work of Dr. Volkmar Wiess in his article: Weiss, Volkmar: Die Vorgeschichte des arischen Ahnenpasses. Teil I: Das sogenannte Blutsbekenntnis. Genealogie 50. Jg. (2001) S. 417-436; Teil II: Historische oder völkische Genealogie?, S. 497-507; Teil III: Die Machtergreifung der Viehzüchter. Heft 7/8. You may also want to peruse the two Wikipedia sites Nazism and Race and/or Racial Policy of Nazi Germany again for a better understanding over the connection between Nordic/Germanic/Aryan. Nowhere however, did the sentence mention the attempt to gauge human beings by appearance - although it did happen in varying degrees in and out of Germany.
The reason for the inclusion (the summary if you will) was to bring together the disparate subject matter about the Nazi seizure of power since it was not really coherently aggregated. It is akin to the closing of a book chapter and is of value to the reader. Historians would not do this unless it had merit. There are several other places where I find the Wikipage on Nazi Germany lacking in this respect but the section on the Nazi seizure of power was most overt due to the fact that so much material was glossed over at breakneck speed.
Once you come to the realization that the original sentence was NOT in error, please consider revising it back to its original form. Nevertheless, as I am not the originator of the page nor do I possess administrative authority for its content, I will defer to those of you who do. I will refrain from adding substantive content to this page in the future despite my corresponding expertise. ( talk)
Please refrain from getting personal WP:PA in trying to say what I and another have read. I have read a lot of books on Hitler, Nazism and Nazi Germany thank you very much. Anyways, the sentence that was removed was giving the indication that "German citizens" were judged on how Aryan/Nordic the individual was. This is incorrect, you could not be a German citizen without being Aryan under Nazi Germany, the Ahnenpass was just one method of gaining an Aryan certificate to show prove you was an Aryan. Of course there were elements of Nazism and some Nazis who were overwhelmingly pro-Nordic but the whole Aryan = Nordic (hence the Aryan/Nordic insert) is nonsense, Nordic was ideal but not standard. A German was a German in the eyes of the Nazis just like an Aryan was an Aryan in the eyes of the Nazis, do you really think many of the linguistic groups or ethnic groups that were officially "Aryan" were majority Nordic? As long as you could provide proof of your Aryan ancestry that was all there was to it. Yes, education quite often talked about the Nordic race but this was just ideal stuff not standard or compulsory. You can show evidence that the Nazis were pro-Nordic (this is undisputed) but the original sentence that got removed was saying that all German citizens got judged on how "Aryan/Nordic" one was which was not true... even Nazi racial theorists were aware that the majority of Germans were not Nordic.-- Windows66 ( talk) 10:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Of course it is not about who has read more but you was getting personal towards me and another user because you have the belief we have not read the books you cited. The thing is though Jews were not racially categorized, neither were Aryans and neither were mixed people, a Jew was a Jew, a Aryan was a Aryan, a Mischling was a Mischling. People were categorized into one of these three categories and in order to be a citizen of the Reich one had to be Aryan. In 1920 the Nazi party made it so that only people of "pure Aryan descent" could be party members and in 1935 with the Nuremberg racial laws coming intact all German citizens had to be Aryans. Also whilst one Jewish grandparent made you non-Aryan and thus not a German citizen he/she was not classified as a Jew but Mischling (part Aryan, part Jewish). That is the problem, the sentence was mis-leading as how I took it was that German citizens (after proving their Aryan ancestry) were judged on how Nordic their looked, which was not the case. You can cite as many sources as you want showing pro-Nordic elements of Nazi Germany and Nazism but the fact remains that citizens of the Reich who were Nordic were not viewed anymore "better" than non-Nordic Aryans. You should also be aware that a Mischlinge of second degree could marry a spouse classified as Aryan without permission required because the offspring would not interfere with the racial laws as the Jewishness would be past 1/4 ancestry.-- Windows66 ( talk) 08:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
People were racially classified into the three categories I have mentioned Jewish, Mischlinge, Aryan; A Jew was a Jew there was no "Ashkenazi Jews" or "Sephardic Jews" just "Jew" which were liable for several sorts of persecution such as loss of citizenship, forbidden to engage in sexual relations or marriage with Aryans, etc etc. Mischlinge were not viewed as Jews but people of both Aryan and Jewish ancestry and it depended on which degree what sort of persecution one suffered. Aryans were Aryans and were able to be citizens of the Reich, whether German or not as long as Aryan (European). You see the sentence is not correct and you seem to still not be forgetting this and are having a go at me for mentioning "Nordic Germans" but this is what the sentence mentioned that it somehow mattered whether you were Nordic or not and that Nordic equaled Aryan when neither of this is true. German citizens had to prove their Aryan ancestry in order to be German citizens not whether or not their had Nordic heritage or Nordic appearance, completely irrelevant. THE END.-- Windows66 ( talk) 11:08, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
What Richard J. Evans states is correct, the Nazis did want to get away with the valueless people Aryan or not, but this is not what "German citizens" were required to be categorised into but only to prove Aryan ancestry, it did not matter if they were Nordic or not (this is what was originally said Aryan/Nordic, a Nordic Aryan was not viewed higher than a non-Nordic Aryan. And all them categorising of what Evans talk about is not racially categorisation. This is now going off topic from racial categorisation to every day life categorisation, this is not what the original sentence stated.-- Windows66 ( talk) 17:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC) You're now what it appears to seem be confusing Nazis view on the Aryan master race and the actual requirements of the German citizen. In order to be a citizen of the Reich all one had to do was prove Aryan ancestry, please see Nuremberg Laws. The homosexuals were categorised as being of lesser value because they could not reproduce but they were still seen as part of the Aryan master race. Please provide proof from a quote from a speech or document by the Nazis saying they were of "lesser racial value" that is just one historians word. For example, one source states "While the Nazis did generally regard everyone with sexual preferences outside the petit-bourgeois norms as “community pests,” they did not necessarily see it as imperative to physically eliminate them, especially if they belonged to the “master race.”" and "Gay artists were generally not persecuted in occupied Paris as long as they were of Aryan origin." [18]. What Evans states is correct, but that is every day life categorising not racial categorising, if you see the racial laws of Nazi Germany people were identified as Aryan, Mischling or non-Aryan (Jewish, Gypsy, Negro) and that is it. Whether one was Nordic or not did not matter.-- Windows66 ( talk) 17:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Okay, so you now say the sentence was wrongly worded which indeed it was, so what do you suggest? The reason for the racial classifications is exactly what I have said all along, people were racially categorised of course. The reason for the charts was to distinguish between Aryans, Jews and Mischling people. Non-Aryans could not be citizens of the reich, the racial enemies of the state were Jews and gypsies. Germans to prove their Aryan ancestry which were all white Europeans so Dutch people, Polish people, Italian people, Irish people or whatever could be citizens of the Reich. But you going on about other categorising is irrelevant to what is being discussed as the every day life categorisation is not even doubted but we are on about the original sentence which said German citizens were judged on how Aryan/Nordic one was.-- Windows66 ( talk) 15:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
There is a Split proposal discussion on the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page that may be of interest to editors of this page. Lightbreather ( talk) 05:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
The whole entry has several bad mistakes. First of all, the Soviet Union was not Nazist. Subtitling under one photograph says something about occupied areas suggesting the Nazist SU occupied Germany. Which is wrong either way. Neither was the SU Nazist nor was it totally occupied.
Further it is wrong to say Church was suppressed during the rule of Adolf Hitler. This was not the case. It was certain Christian individuals like the brothers and sisters Scholl, Christian, who actively fought this new rule. More likely the German Church lost attention it had before. But I still think most of the Nazis had a baptism and a communion and were churchgoers as everybody else, more or less believers. The worse of the matter is not investigated nor published, not at all clarified, that is strong connections between parties and politicians of the time and the German Church. Himmler is said to have been a Jesuite or even had a Jesuite education. After the end of World War II, the German Church did not undertake any of the procedures of cleaning herself from the recent past. It went on doing as before. Denazification was stronger in the Eastern part of Germany, about the Western one the results are better known. Nothing is known - because it did not exist - about opposition against deportations and support of the Jews - whatever classification applied - undertaken by the German Church. One of the more recent failures in this respect was one or the other acitivity of the Pope Benedict, former Kardinal Ratzinger seated in Bavaria, who showed a certain unwillingness towards the problem. He even considered the holy status of the Pope of then. His generation still experienced the war and the rule of Hitler, nothing is known about personal opposition of him then, nor did anything become known afterwards which was related to denazification in a positive way.
Is there anything known precisely on the intelligence service of the Third Reich? Does it link to this expression Der Schwarze Ganter (lit. The Black Male Goose). I came across it once, nothing there to be found yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.250 ( talk) 02:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
The subtitles as well as the photographs are misleading.
Indoctrination was done using words (and violence).
The row of photographs touches certain issues prevalent in the GDR, for example women working in factories.
It looks as if there is a hidden subtext. Federal Republican German propaganda has a similar equation which is wrong: GDR = Third Reich. Further short comments are impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.250 ( talk) 02:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
There have been several attempts to change the name of this article. Here is a list of related archived discussions: May 2013; April 2012; April 2012; August 2010; March 2010; July 2007. Those who suggest changing it claim that the word Nazi is a slang derogative, propagandistic and biased term. Those who argue that the article's name should remain argue that Nazi Germany is the common name in English for the designated period in German history. The Polish, French, Spanish & Russian WP articles as well as Britannica (1973) use the title Third Reich. The German WP article uses the official name used by the then territorial government and specifies the period Deutsches Reich 1933 bis 1945. I agree that the term Nazi is not an appropriate encyclopedic designation for a country and suggest the less biased and also widely used in English Third Reich. Axelode ( talk) 07:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
There is also no state called "The Third Reich". EB uses the phrase "Nazi Germany" repeatedly and exclusively however, whenever they are discussing the topic in related articles, not "Third Reich" btw. That they named their section title "Third Reich" in their massive 100+ page article entitled "Germany" has more to do with their structural organization imo, than any editorial decision. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:41, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Back in October 2008, Josh wrote a very interesting exposé opening the door to a much more complex reorganization around Germany's articles. Food for thoughts... Axelode ( talk) 06:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the Gun control talk page which may be of interest to editors of this page:
Thank you. -- Lightbreather ( talk) 16:38, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Should the term "the Third Reich have it's own article? 71.194.44.209 ( talk) 21:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
The Third Reich is the proper name, as I see 'Nazi Germany' is a disgrace because the entire country was not nazist's. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Foreshadowing111 (
talk •
contribs)
23:12, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
The current infobox map gets the point across and is very well put together. I believe it should be included somewhere in the article. However, it is a little too complicated and just all over the place to be honest. I feel this map I created is better for the infobox. It shows Greater Germany, areas under Nazi control and even puppet governments of the Nazis. I don't feel the need to include Germany's allies and the Western allies. You dont see the infobox map of the US highlighting its allies. My map is the map used by a majority of infoboxes so it would fit better with other articles. Reverend Mick man34 ♣ ( talk) 19:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I recently suggested as an addition to "External Links" the following page at the Spartacus Educational website: http://spartacus-educational.com/GERnazigermany.htm . This struck me as a useful resource because it includes biographies of over 140 important figures in Nazi Germany. (In retrospect, perhaps it should have been in "Further Reading".) Editor Kierzek reverted the edit on the grounds that Spartacus Educational is not considered WP:RS source. I would be grateful for other opinions on this. (It is briefly discussed here: /info/en/?search=User_talk:Kierzek)
I have been consulting the Spartacus website for some years and find it a useful resource. It IS the work of one man, and he appears to have an interest in the civil rights movement, women's suffrage etc, but I have never detected any bias in individual articles. I have always found the footnotes and references useful, and errors rare. Any thoughts...? Tartarusrussell ( talk) 14:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
I saw Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spartacus Educational earlier today and I also saw reference to this discussion on User:Kierzek's talk page. As it pertains to Spartacus Educational, I have very little knowledge of military history but I am more familiar with issues related to various conspiracy theories involving the assassination of JFK. I agree with the others who indicate that it is not a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. Simkin gives an inordinate amount of weight to primary source material, including people who simply make stuff up, then reports it as fact. A source that accepts unreliable or uncorroborated sources is not a reliable source. Likely fails WP:ELNO #2. Location ( talk) 06:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
The article refers to Nazi Germany as "Das Drittes Reich"; that is a grammatical mistake. It should be "Das dritte Reich". "Dritte" is not capitalised in German as it is not a noun, even in a context where, in English, every word would be capitalised (eg. The Third Reich, or the title of a book or movie). And when using a definite article (in this case "das") the adjective ends with "e", regardless of whether it's masculine, feminine or neutral. "Dritt" (or any adjective) would only end with "-er" or "-es" when preceded by an indefinite article or none at all, eg. "Ein drittes Reich" or "drittes Reich". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.234.54.99 ( talk) 10:40, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
The article's first para is not neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.202.232.93 ( talk) 08:13, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 23:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Totalitarian dictatorship is not a form of government. Totalitarianism is a concept, and dictatorships are not forms of government. -- TIAYN ( talk) 23:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
What exactly is the criteria for this list? Anywhere in Europe a German soldier stood? I'd think a list of countries that today comprise what was once Nazi Germany should be limited to, you know, areas that were actually Nazi Germany at one point. Bulgaria, for instance, was never incorporated into Grossdeutschland, nor were half of the other entries in the list. Parsecboy ( talk) 17:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
The list was re-added in the past and substantially expanded today without any explanation. I've removed the whole thing. -- NeilN talk to me 02:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Does this title already ok? Nazi Germany? I mean you can write" old germany", or "national" But not "nazi" - its a swearword of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesseblue2006 ( talk • contribs) 07:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
"National Socialist Germany" is not a common name for Nazi Germany, with only 74,600 Google hits compared to 9,190,000 for "Nazi Germany". I don't think it belongs in the opening sentence. Discussion welcome, -- Diannaa ( talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Is this really a good idea? How is it helpful to list a government of Nazi Germany as the successor to Nazi Germany? Has this been discussed? Am I missing something? We're talking about a government headed by Dönitz, a high-ranking member of the NSDAP, at Hitler's own appointment, and clearly representing the same German state ("Greater German Reich") that existed up to that point. It came about in what is, as far as I can tell, a perfectly legal transfer of power within the same context - that of Nazi Germany (since Hitler's orders were law). -- Director ( talk) 11:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I find this strange, yes, I understand countries/entities such as Vichy France or Slovakia or the state of Croatia were allies/puppets of Germany, but Denmark was under occupation. Guy355 ( talk) 06:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. P.S It also changed later on for countries such as Vichy France, when in 1943 Germany occupied the rest of the free zone of mainland France. Guy355 ( talk) 10:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
The capital should be say Berlin (1933-1945) and then Flensburg (1945). -- 76.105.96.92 ( talk) 21:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I can see there has been some discussion about the current map featured in the infobox, but I still wonder why Denmark, Yugoslavia and Greece is not shown as "military-administered occupied territories"? I'm aware Denmark was allowed to maintain partial sovereignty, but was nevertheless occupied by German forces until May 1945. Jonas Vinther • ( speak to me!) 12:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
What is your source that "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führe" was a Motto? Xx236 ( talk) 08:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Poles, Jews and Czechs who lived in the General Government and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (autonomous Nazi-administered territories)? [1]
-- Tobby72 ( talk) 11:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Under Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed from a democracy into a dictatorship THAT IS A LIE !!! now how is that even theoretically possible? when germany already was a De facto authoritarian state ruled by emergency decree under president of the weimar republic Paul von Hindenburg so hitler did not turn germany to a dicatorship, germany was already a dictatorship! Peterzor ( talk) 17:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
User:peterzor has been blocked as he has been identified as a sockpuppet. Now perhaps we can improve this page without it going off on unnecessary and irrelevant tangents and edit-wars. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 09:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer is Nazi Germany's Motto Peterzor ( talk) 15:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
While using Evans is ok so far, his views aren't universally shared by all historians. Certainly the degree of participation and support for genocide among German citizens is matter of debate and we should present other than Evans views on the matter. Also the claim that there weren't mass suicides or public displays of grief in 1945 is a bold one and standing in opposition to known other historic research.
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 02:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Malobo's observation that While using Evans is ok so far, his views aren't universally shared by all historians
The article for the most part based on English language sources which tend to downplay or ignore the huge losses of the civilian population in the USSR and Poland.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:48, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
There's already content about the Wehrmacht in war crimes; it's in the section "Wehrmacht". And there's a mention that off-duty soldiers revealed what they saw and did, in the section "The Holocaust". Soldiers looting (and widespread theft of art treasures etc) is mentioned at the bottom of the section "conquest of Europe." The huge loss of life in the USSR is covered in the section "Persecution of other groups". I will amend the section that talks about suicides after I read the sources you have posted. -- Dianna ( talk) 15:11, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The subsecion doesn't explain responsibility - Nazi euthanasia victims and Allied rapes victims are listed in one paragraph. Xx236 ( talk) 08:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Who exactly "attempted to get word to the outside world as to what was happening"? Xx236 ( talk) 09:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 18:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take this review. Initial comments to follow in the next 1-3 days. Thanks in advance for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 18:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I've begun here by reading through the peer review, and given the level of detail there the commenters focused on, I don't imagine this will have any difficulty meeting GA standards. I've made it perhaps halfway through the article in the comments below; hope to finish later this afternoon/evening. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 19:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
A few tiny things:
The article's a little long. This isn't a problem for an article of this importance (for GA anyway), but FWIW, here's some sentences I think could be cut or in some cases moved to explanatory footnotes. Don't worry about replying to any of these, it's not an issue for GA-- just for you to take or leave.
Continuing under a new header for clarity. This is really a terrific article, btw; it does an excellent job of covering social and cultural aspects of Nazi Germany as well as the better known military/atrocity angles. I learned quite a lot from reading it (hope that doesn't disqualify me as its reviewer). Please feel free to revert any of the tweaks I've made directly to the text if you see any you disagree with. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 23:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Small suggestions:
Possible cuts: Again, these are side suggestions only, and not relevant for GA. Feel free to take or leave, no response needed unless you're interested in discussing.
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | |
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2c. it contains no original research. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | On a superficial pass, the article appears complete; also, article has received extensive review without persuasive complaints of omission. |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | At 78kb, article is a little long, but not unreasonably long for a major topic. I suggested some very small cuts above, but there's very little fat here. |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | Talk page is active, as you'd expect for a top-importance article, but no significant warring. |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | |
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7. Overall assessment. | Pass as GA |
Of course there's nothing to stop us sharing the views of German and Austrian legislators on the publication of Horst-Wessel-Lied; there's also nothing to stop us from disregarding non-ubiquitous laws that have no place in countries without a history of Nazism or Nazi occupation. It is true that Horst-Wessel-Lied will be a "top hit" for neo-Nazis, but I fail to see how this is of any relevance here. It's an historical piece of music - it's not something that portrays the Third Reich in an overly or unnecessarily positive light (except in the eyes of a German-fluent neo-Nazi) - and, dare I say it - it's less offensive than some of the photographs on this article. I myself find the photo of starving prisoners 'offensive' - but it's history, and it shouldn't be watered down for anyone. I agree with what Boson has said in that it's likely that only a small number of people will have any interest in Horst-Wessel-Lied, and I agree that a link to the song on the article for Horst-Wessel-Lied would be equally appropriate, but I stand against deletion of the OGG partly out of principle (let's not water down history), and partly because the argument for removal just isn't strong enough; articles on countries (and 'periods' within countries - even the evil ones) have sound files in their infoboxes. Surlyduff50 ( talk) 20:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
The Horst Wessel Lied drags this article into the gutter, the song is at the top of the hit list for neo-Nazis. In Germany it is banned. Get rid of this eyesore.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The fact that some might find Horst-Wessel-Lied "offensive" is not sufficient grounds for removing the Deutschlandlied and Horst-Wessel-Lied OGG files. The fact that the piece is illegal in Germany is also of no relevance, given that we're discussing the English article. It is offensive to some - yes - but it is in no way obscene, graphic or in breach of Wikipedia's rules. A /ton/ of content on Wikipedia will prove offensive to certain groups. This is supposed to be an objective article; Horst-Wessel-Lied was at the centre of Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are plenty who find "The Internationale" OGG file on the Soviet Union article "offensive", too. If you disagree with me, then fine - but you'd surely disagree with the presence of "The Internationale" at the same time - given that it too would prove offensive to, say, the victims of Stalinism? Surlyduff50 ( talk) 21:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Even if policy permits us to include a song here, that does not mean that we are obliged to do so. We should not conflate the issue of editorial judgement with what policy requires. There is a reason for the prohibition applying to the distribution of the Horst-Wessel-Lied, and there is nothing to stop us, as responsible editors, sharing the views of the German and Austrian legislatures on the inappropriateness of its publication without accompanying commentary. In my view, it is sufficient to provide a link to the article on the song, where such detailled commentary is possible; the few people reading this article who need to know more about the Horst-Wessel-Lied can click on the link. So I
Of course there's nothing to stop us sharing the views of German and Austrian legislators on the publication of Horst-Wessel-Lied; there's also nothing to stop us from disregarding non-ubiquitous laws that have no place in countries without a history of Nazism or Nazi occupation. It is true that Horst-Wessel-Lied will be a "top hit" for neo-Nazis, but I fail to see how this is of any relevance here. It's an historical piece of music - it's not something that portrays the Third Reich in an overly or unnecessarily positive light (except in the eyes of a German-fluent neo-Nazi) - and, dare I say it - it's less offensive than some of the photographs on this article. I myself find the photo of starving prisoners 'offensive' - but it's history, and it shouldn't be watered down for anyone. I agree with what Boson has said in that it's likely that only a small number of people will have any interest in Horst-Wessel-Lied, and I agree that a link to the song on the article for Horst-Wessel-Lied would be equally appropriate, but I stand against deletion of the OGG partly out of principle (let's not water down history), and partly because the argument for removal just isn't strong enough; articles on countries (and 'periods' within countries - even the evil ones) have sound files in their infoboxes. Surlyduff50 ( talk) 17:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
From the lede:
All? Was the Gestapo responsible for all that?? The assertion regarding the Gestapo should be replaced with the link to the RSHA (Reich Main Security Office); because the Gestapo was just one agency of several that had almost similar roles rooting out dissent within Nazi Germany, and later occupied Europe. Furthermore this sentence suggests the Gestapo took precedence for such activity (being backed up by the SS) as with inclusion of the conjunction "and". BUT they were not separate, because the Gestapo was just one agency (the others being the Sicherheitsdienst, Sicherheitspolizei, Kriminalpolizei) of the SS-Reichssicherheitshauptamt that was part of the Allgemeine SS.
This statement is so ambiguous it is frankly meaningless. Pure Pop history 101. I pity the fools who copied that one for their school essays! 86.160.188.62 ( talk) 17:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
You reduce the workers to almost animals. Some of them belonged to anti-Nazi organizations, collected intelligence data, see Olimp (organization). Xx236 ( talk) 11:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
I have reversed Cherubinrule's recent edit - none of the books listed in Further Reading were used to prepare the article, even as general references, so they should not be listed in the bibliography. They need to be in a separate section. WP:FURTHER -- Diannaa ( talk) 15:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Cherubinirules has again been tinkering with the book lists, and I have reversed his edit. I Think he did not see my post here on the article talk page on this matter, so I have posted my rationale for retention of the present layout on his user talk page. -- Diannaa ( talk) 14:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It's Encyklopedia Powszechna PWN. Xx236 ( talk) 06:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
There is an ongoing RFC that may be of interest to editors in this article. Talk:Gun_control#RFC Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
It is a gross understatement -if not a travesty - to sum up the oppression of the Catholic Church and other Christians as merely some were "disciplined, arrested and put in jail." This is far from the truth, nor anywhere remotely correct. Thousands upon thousands were murdered, spent years in concentration camps -not "jail"- and suffered greatly under this nightmare simply for holding to their faith and/or defending the Jewish people. This current summary is woefully short of the reality.
And, the "handy work" of the Nazis to harass the Catholic Church began in the late winter early spring of 1933 - not 1935. Of the 20 odd books I have read on this topic from mainstream historians notes this. So . . . . what is the concern bringing this to light with RS citation? ( talk • contribs) 19:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC) Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 19:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Diannaa- Good to hear from you. Well, in this very Article the Section, "The Outbreak of War", cites (Evans 2006) stating that by the end of 1939 - less than four full months after the invasion of Poland, 65,000 were targeted prior to the invasion, then killed within the intelligentsia - among them-clergy. Poland, then and now, is predominately - Catholic Christians.
In the wiki Article covering the concentration camp of Dachau it discusses the "priests barracks" where 1034 Catholic clergy and some 30 Protestant pastors met their deaths, citing Ian Kershaw "The Nazi Dictatorship, Problems and Perspectives . . . . " 4th edition and others. Further, in Robert P. Ericksen's, "Complicity in the Holocaust", p. 109, he writes, "perhaps as many as 1,000 Polish priests were murdered for fear they might be potential leaders of a future rebellion." Therefore, the 'testimony' of just these three sources alone places the number over 2034+ at a minimum. And, we can go on and on. It is in the aggregate - rather than a single source - that the picture comes into focus.
Last, in Robert A. Krieg's, "Catholic Theologians in Nazi Germany", states that the powers given to Hitler as Chancellor - due to the Reichstag Fire Decree of Feb. 28, 1933 - were used/abused to require civil servants to members of the Nazi Party in the states where they had control. Clearly, harassment to all. Then on p. 7 he states, "During June 1933, Nazis waged a strong anti-Catholic campaign ....", clearly long before 1935, or the signing and ratification of the Concordat. So, I ask again. Why is this not reflected in this summary? Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 23:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not well enough informed on what Hitler did to Christians to comment on the content, but what I do know is that Christianity is not a race. The content is in the wrong place. HiLo48 ( talk) 00:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow editors- thank you for your input. Whether this topic is under "Society", or otherwise, seems of modest concern. Our focus s/b historical accuracy. In reverse order? The Concordat was a goal of the Catholic Church since the start of the Weimar Republic in 1919 - not simply an ad hoc response to Nazism. Was it PR? Well, that may have been so for Hitler - but not the Catholic Church. Was it to protect its "power"? If by "power" you mean maintaining control over its institutions? Yes, that's on the mark. As for the youth groups and lay organizations? That was never fully resolved-it was a constant bone of contention between Berlin and Rome post the treaty being ratified and until the end of the war. It's unfortunate as well, Kierzek, that your link to "Catholicism" is a discussion of the concept/notion of the word catholic in Christianity - not the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany. Annoying -I know, but . . . . it is what it is. The Article that covers this topic in depth is the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany.
In response to Rjensen? You're entitled to your POV. All that was pointed out above is founded in RS citations of respected scholars. What are you offering other than a vague, "I'm not convinced" based on "leaders" not being murdered? If by leaders you mean: bishops, or the pope? Yes, that's correct. But, to have done so would have caused rebellion in the German military. The Nazis were ruthless-not stupid. Yet, many Christian leaders were murdered for resisting founded upon their faith, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or the religious philosopher, Edith Stein And, many others like the priests mentioned. As well, being sent to a Nazi concentration camp goes a touch beyond mere "harassment".
Lastly, how do we define: confiscation of land, property, printing presses, publications, radio stations, the shuttering of seminaries, monasteries, convents and schools, which the Nazis had done, other than suppression? Thank you Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 02:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Understood- this subject is highly complex and full of subtle nuance, which require sorting through to "get it right". This much I've learned over the years. Until next time. All the best. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 03:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- Once more, you're entitled. Do not wish to be appear to be "combative". The Nazis involved themselves in the Civil War in Spain for a host of reasons. Priming their military, and fighting their arch rival - the Communists among several. The Communists were a major force in Central Europe since the 1920's and were seeking further expansion via Spain. Not that complicated when you get to the fundamentals. Was Communism synonymous in the Nazi mind to the Jewish people? Yes. And,yes, many priests and religious were murdered in cold bold by the Communists there.
To say the Nazis were there to "protect the Catholic Church" as its primary motive, or even truly a viable point ? I'm sorry, but that's a 'straw-man' debate. A connecting of dots that do not stand up to the hard facts. Was the Catholic Church encouraging opposition of the Communists? Yes, without a doubt. But, for the same motivation as the Nazis? Categorically - no. The Catholic Church has been denouncing Communism sine 1891 with the publication of Rerum Novarum when Hitler was an infant and Franco was a one year old. This is like stating the Ocean is wet because the water is blue.
Robert Krieg, Robert Ericksen and Ian Kershaw are not RS's? Okay. Have any of you been to Dachau? If you have not. In the museum there? What I just put forward? Is in the displays and education kiosks. And, in the Article on Dachau? The numbers are sourced regarding the # priests who died there: 1034. Ericksen tells us around 1000 priests were murdered during invasion of Poland. So . . . . a touched confused on that point. Is not Dachau in Germany? Was not Poland a Nazi territory? Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 04:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Good Morning - Just to wrap up this whole issue. Rjensen? It's okay. But, there is not a requirement for any of us to write a virtual treatise to make a point;willing to work with you - not do your homework for you. Read more.
Yes, the Vatican had a vested interest in Spain during the Civil War there. Just as they did when the Russian Empire fell - for the very same reason. An atheistic power was brutally enforcing its will. And, it is clear that the Nazis walked more cautiously in their own homeland for a litany of reasons. Yet, they showed their contempt when the risks were low i.e., Poland and Eastern Europe.
Just what part of Evans (this Articles' own reference) statement that 65,000 were killed/executed soon after the invasion of Poland in cold blood, pre-meditated murder - and among them clergy confuses you? And, there is no mystery that- overwhelmingly- Poland was - Roman Catholic. This apparent denial of history, or innocent ignorance, is no excuse to belittle the memory of the thousands of Christians that were targeted and murdered by the Nazis because of their faith based resistance. I'll leave it to your conscience to work that out. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 15:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- If we're speaking of Germany "proper" (as in, pre-1936 borders) what you state is correct. We agree. Inside Germany "proper" the verifiable figures are less than 1100 +-. Outside the borders of Germany 'proper' (as in, the Nazi Empire )-particularly at its peak ? Then, the figures soar dramatically, leaving Spain aside altogether.
With that, it's an injustice - in my view- to summarize the fate of Christians inside Germany who resisted, and assisted the Jewish people based on their faith, as merely harassed, disciplined, arrested and jailed. This language places their fate no worse than a fraternity party gone bad. They were beaten, murdered, dispossessed and placed in concentration camps left to die. This was the fate of at least 1100 between 1934-1945 that can be reasonably verified inside Germany. Again, the Dachua priests barracks being the obvious example. This is what I'm stating. Hope you see the merit of this position. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 22:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- These are verified historical facts. If you visit the, Catholic Church and Nazi Germany Article you will see the data on the Dachua priests barracks. Perhaps, I was seeing an illusion at the Dachua museum with the list of over 1000 priests that perished there. More broadly - if you visit the Article Holocaust victims and read the Section, religious persecution you'll read the following: 2,000 Jehovah Witnesses were placed in concentration camps in Germany; thousands of clergy were killed. 3000 of the Polish clergy murdered - 1992 in concentration camps. 2600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries killed in concentration camps in Germany, 1034 from Dachau alone.
Is this body count sufficient to count as an RS? Or, do we need more? Here is a sampling of German Christians in Germany who where murdered in Germany for their faith: Josef Wirmer - hung. Willi Graf-head of Catholic Youth Groups and member of the White Rose-beheaded. Maria Restituta - beheaded for placing a crucifix in a classroom and writing a poem denouncing Hitler. This is not to mention the other more infamous individual cases such as, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Does this look anything like simply being "disciplined" - "arrested" and "jailed"? We can go on and on. And, these are the cases we know about. I'm not interested - just as are you- in empty debate. Again, I hope you see the merits of the position. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 22:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- This is, well, pointless. No matter what objective evidence is placed before you it's as if it does not exist. I offered respected RS's such as Krieg, and Ericksen and several links within Wikipedia that already provide further RS citations. Yet, you have provided not a single RS that denies or refutes any of what has been put forward. Can you produce a single citation that states no German Christians (including Catholics) were murdered by the Nazis in Germany for their faith based resistance, or placing themselves at great risk to assist the Jewish people motivated by that faith? If not? Then, what does that tell us? We need to move on now - if you can not produce this. Of the 11 or so concentration camps in Germany on any given day from 1936/7-45 you will have found thousands of Christians there because of their faith based resistance. I challenge you to produce one historian of credit that refutes this historical reality. And, I will let what has been put forward speak for itself. As for Catholics? An incredible statement on your part. So, if we're to take what you're implying, then Roman Catholics were - what-exactly? Not that I have put forward Catholics exclusively here. You have singled out Catholics. Please feel free to elaborate, however. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 04:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Rjensen- Not much coming forward. Or, can we look forward to more vague repeated circular language of denial of history void of a single quote of an RS? I think there is a phrase that is useful in circumstances such as this. It goes like this Rjensen. You say, "You're right - I'm wrong. Let's move on." Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 11:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Editors- First, thank you Diannaa for adding "concentration camps" to the list of horrors that Christians in Germany who resisted based on faith to the Section under discussion. And, Kierzek for pointing to the edit. Yet, this is a start - not fully complete. They were dispossessed, families torn apart and thousands murdered in the most brutal inhumane/ unjust fashion conceivable. This is not to take away - at all- from the fate of others. But, what is the "message sent" to omit one concise sentence? Are not readers entitled to know? Are not future generations to hear the full truth?
Rjensen- I'm not at loss;your position lacks merit thus far. Your complaint that I have not provided RS's is just - well- not true. I provided several, one of them existing in the Article from Evans. And-once again- several Wikipedia links with numerous RS's that support what is being offered. While you have yet to produce a single RS quote to refute. Not a very solid argument. Not only this, I offered links to individual cases of those - yes, murdered by the Nazis in Germany for resisting based on their faith; each Article providing an abundance of RS citations in their own right.
This all started with the point about Christians - not only Catholics. Every historian of this period knows 2000+ Jevovah's Witnesses (from Germany in Germany) were murdered in cold blood for refusing to compromise their faith. Are they not Christians? Every historian knows that well over 1000 catholic priests died in the Dachua concentration camp - in Germany. They even have a memorial plaque on the grounds for Pete's sakes! With their names on it. Were they all there for resisting based on faith alone? No, but most were.
And, this notion of proving the motivation of the executioner is -again- off the mark that is, whether its political, or religious persecution. The real question is what motivated the victim to resist in the first instance. Yes? Politics, or their faith? The motivation of the executioner is secondary. In the eyes of the victim resisting based on faith? You can be sure they understood what was really happening. They literally staked their lives on it.
My motivation is not ideological, political, theological, or an agenda of some sort. My motivation is -justice and impartial objectivity. And, no more. To deny this fact based history is a grave injustice wether you have a bone to pick with any particular religion, or faith tradition, is not relevant to the objective reality of what actually- happened. With that, yet more victims of the Nazi nightmare who were killed, no, murdered or died in a concentration camp because of their faith based resistance to Nazism - in Germany- from Wikipedia with an overabundance of RS citations in each:
Paul Schneider (pastor) Protestant pastor, Maria Skobtsova Russian Orthodox nun, poet and French Resistance member, took the place of a Jewish woman about to taken to the gas chambers in a concentration camp- in Germany. Wladyslaw Goral - bishop murdered in a concentration camp - in Germany, Titus Brandsma catholic priest and renowned scholar of philosophy murdered in Dachua by lethal injection in a "medical experiment", and there is plenty more where this came from -sadly. Now, I place the rest on the conscience of the good editors of this Article. And, have said my piece. Thank you all. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 23:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
How Catholic Church was being destroyed on Polish territories annexed by Germany during the war can be read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Religion -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
MyMoloboaccount - Thank you! Very much on the mark. There were some Christians (using that label loosely) -nor singling out Catholics, or the "Catholic Church"- who adapted: the Racial policy of Nazi Germany - the source of this hateful "subhuman" concept of the Slavic people and others. And, there was a movement called Positive Christianity among the Nazis who explicitly and formally incorporated this racism into their "faith tradition"; composed mostly of lax Protestants of northern Germany and some former Catholics. It is also true and correct that nationalism played a part.
As for the Catholic Church? The leadership (meaning the bishops as a body) formally denounced this racism. And, among the Protestants-most notably - the Confessing Church had done the same. The Orthodox Churches also published similar documents and positions. Like most history- we prefer simple answers to complex issues, but if we're seeking truth we have to contend with the complexity of the human experience. No escaping it. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 00:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
To give you a second opinion, it seems to me that you, Integrityandhonesty are wrong on this issue, at least as far as THIS article is concerned. Lets take one of your statements as an example:
--lucid 178.6.103.153 ( talk) 10:54, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello Anonymous 178.6.103.153
The topic and subject is/was the section already existent in the Article titled:Oppression of Christians.
The exclusion of non-christian faith traditions, (i.e, Muslims - or others) and so on is because it is not the topic. Whereas, you make an indirect valid point. Why stop at Christians as to faith based (motivated) resistance and their oppression by the Nazis?
In the case of Poland, it was and still is, a people who - in the main - profess to be Catholic. As stated, this is not to saying this is the only Christian faith tradition then, or now, that resisted in Poland, or elsewhere. Or, that Catholics were the only people to resisted based on their belief in the existence of God, Christian, Jewish or otherwise. Never stated that. My input was to address the topic at hand- which was - and is, the dilution of the reality that thousands of Christians were murdered by the Nazis precisely because they were motivated by their Christian faith. More to the point? The point in its entirety is to state it's unjust to reduce this history to a mere foot note that Christians were merely arrested, or harassed, but indeed, were murdered in pre-mediated cold bold, precisely because of their Christian faith inspired resistance. And, I offered multiple RS sources in my submission.
In point in fact, I specifically stated this and offered examples of non-Catholics who resisted as well who resisted to the point of being murdered. So, not certain where you're taking us. Nor, did I state atheists, or agnostics were/are less inclined to resist for ethical, or moral reasons, objective crimes against humanity regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic heritage, or vocation as in your analogy of your beloved plumber. So, I struggle to see your point in response to what was actually stated in this regard.
Further, there are many well documented examples of many people of faith who were murdered precisely because of their faith based (motivation) resistance to the Nazis. Their own surviving writings, the Nazis own surviving documents and first account witnesses are in the thousands, such as Maximilian Kolbe. Nor, was there an attempt in any form or fashion to "prove" Catholics vs others ('religious' or not) were more "Jew saving"- as you put it - than any others. Where do you see that in what was submitted? With all this, there are literally hundreds of scholarly works and books on this topic. I suggest you read a few and learn for yourself that thousands upon thousands of Jews were spared the fate of the Holocaust by people of faith precisely because of their faith. And, many were oppressed and paid with their lives in the process of their faith based resistance.
As for diminishing, or dismissing, the pain of others? Once more - the topic was explicit and exclusively about Christians as the section is titled Oppression of Christians. And, it was stated very clearly that this was not in any manner to take from the suffering of others - period. But, the injustice of grossly understating that Christians suffered explicitly because of their faith. If you visit the Article Catholic Church and Nazi Germany or Religion in Nazi Germany you'll discover an abundance of 'exceptionally good' RS's' to the point raised, that indeed there were powerful forces within Nazism motivated and desired to dismantle Christianity. Thank you for your comments - while I challenge now a legitimate refutation (with 'exceptionally good' RS's) that Christians did not suffer persecution under Nazi rule and thousands murdered because of their faith based resistance. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 18:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Integrityandhonesty,
"The topic and subject is/was the section already existent in the Article titled:Oppression of Christians."
"The exclusion of non-christian faith traditions, (i.e, Muslims - or others) and so on is because it is not the topic."
"In the case of Poland, ..."
--lucid 188.109.163.86 ( talk) 06:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello Anonymous 188.109.163.86?
There seems to be a bit of confusion here. There is no attempt to suggest this Article is "Anti-Catholic/Christian" but rather pointing out that it was an injustice to characterize the fate of many Christians (including in Nazi Germany) who suffered being murdered for their faith based resistance. Once more, if you visit the Articles referenced you will discover this, which within themselves provide a cornucopia of RS's. This has been addressed by the way. Weeks ago just to let you know. Nor, am I (or others) concerned about 'winning arguments' but getting to objective history.
Indeed, there was a response to 'proving' faith based resistance. Did I not express that we have surviving documents of the victims themselves? Were not several Article references offered for you to visit? Not sure where you're going here either. What manner of evidence does one need beyond the words of the victims themselves, testimony of eyewitnesses and the Nazis as to why and what events led to their murder? Beyond this, it becomes circular. When a conversation becomes circular there is usually an ideology to blame. Not interested in that either - but seeking and supporting the truth.
To suggest thousands were not murdered by the Nazis in Germany and throughout the Nazi Empire because of their faith inspired resistance is to deny reality and a great injustice to objective history. It's that plain and simple. Like the noses on our faces Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 12:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Thousands were, yes, arrested, and harassed in Germany. But, also, dispossessed, tortured and murdered. Thousands of them - not simply a rare exceptional 'saint'. And, it was their faith that motivated them in most cases. As an example Erich Klausener and others I have already pointed out above. The most clear case is the Jehovah Witnesses who resolutely refused to recognize Hitler as the Nazis required. In Germany - it is estimated 2,500 to 5000 were killed for this alone.
Of course - we can all agree- most 'Christians' (including some/many priests) did not resist as they were called to. Otherwise, none of this would have - perhaps -happened in the first instance. This only tells us few had the courage - or sincerely believed what they professed - to live out their faith in the face of a brute thug, and when much is on the line to 'push back'. So, it begs the question. We're they truly following the example of Christ? The answer is clearly - no. As Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. You Christians are so not like your Christ." But then, he was murdered by a Hindu extremist. Yet, we should be slow to judge. In the face of raw murderous industrialized thuggery reason goes out the window.
This being objectively true - in no manner should this fact take a single ounce or iota away from those who had, and clearly those that had paid handsomely - in the thousands - in Germany. And, history should preserve and honor their memory. Enough said. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 01:32, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
In part Territorial changes is written: "The Saarland was made part of Czechoslovakia" Shouldn't be there France instead of Czechoslovakia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helldix ( talk • contribs) 17:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
The Saarland prior to being incorporated into the Federal Republic of Germany was a French Protectorate, but it was never annexed by France.
JWULTRABLIZZARD (
talk)
21:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
@Binksternet. Should we then remove " E pluribus unum" from the USA article? Or the "(popular)" and "(unofficial)" anthems from German Empire? etc. -- Director ( talk) 19:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think anyone disagrees that "ein rich" was A motto, but putting it into the inforbox implies it was The motto, which I think is unsupported, even with the current ref. Gaijin42 ( talk) 18:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I have removed a large addition by Ozhistory about religion. My opinion is that a thousand-word addition on this topic gives it undue weight (increasing the article size from 12,400 words to 13,400 words). It makes the section on persecution of the Christian Churches more than triple the size (1510 words versus 439 words) of the section on persecution of the Jews, which was the core thing the Nazis did. An off-topic addition this size could possibly even jeopardise its status as a Good Article, as this article should be a summary of key points without going into too much detail. Perhaps the material could be added to Religion in Nazi Germany instead? I would be interested to see opinions of other editors. Thanks -- Diannaa ( talk) 14:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Germany's war in the East was based on Hitler's long-standing view that Jews were the great enemy of the German people and that Lebensraum was needed for Germany's expansion. He focused on Eastern Europe, aiming to defeat Poland and the Soviet Union and remove or kill the resident Jews and Slavs
"Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a totalitarian state where nearly all aspects of life were controlled by the state." That in the first paragraph, to avoid redundancy and to get more to the point, should be written as: "Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a totalitarian state where nearly all aspects of life were controlled by the Nazi Party." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.126.27 ( talk) 22:18, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The issue is whether to portray the era as one of statism or one-party dictatorship. The ideology of the party is probably more the issue than the statism, since statism was common among the great powers of Europe anyway. All of the Fascists and Communists were statists, and the Nazis likewise. Furthermore, it must be stressed that party loyalty resulted in treason to the Weimar state--Reichstag Fire et al, so statism was not exactly the point of Nazi Germany, nor a point of difference from Weimar, or from Prussian Germany before, etc. Political affiliation defined Germany at this time, regardless of official state identification with Nazi party. It is strange, however, that the article is not called the Greater German Reich, when that is the official name, otherwise we would be reading the title of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or Soviet Union article as Communist Russia or Red Russia as opposed to White Russia. Nazi Germany is a political description for the article that does stress the partisan identity of Germany at the time, no less than Communist Russia would, had it been chosen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.126.27 ( talk) 16:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Reread the quote. It clearly makes the case for statist control of the population. Because statism was hardly unique to Nazi Germany, it begs the case for a rewording. The description should read more like the Great Purge by Stalin, for political supremacy over the people, rather than that the state in and of itself simply bossed people around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.126.27 ( talk) 19:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Did nazi germany have a national motto and if so which one? 83.180.210.160 ( talk) 19:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
we can resolve the issue here instead of edit warring 83.180.210.160 ( talk) 19:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
they may have, but we need sourcing to determine if so and which one, which we do not have. For example, here are other phrases which are refereed to in reliable sources as "the nazi motto" (Used in the sense of "The phrase X" (none of which are the "official motto"
And I could find many more quite easily. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:30, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
The issue of a national motto has been repeatedly discussed since May 2013. I have checked and found no reliable sources that name any one motto as the national motto of Nazi Germany. The IP who opened this RFC is very likely banned user User:Chaosname, as the IP geolocates to his known location. He most recently socked under username Peterzor. -- Diannaa ( talk) 20:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Many slogans were used by the Nazis but the main was Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer literally translated into One People (Aryans) One State (Greater German Reich) One Leader (Hitler).-- Sphere1994 ( talk) 16:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I've edited text into the article "At the same time Nazi propaganda created the concept of "race defilement" ( Rassenschande) to justify the need for a restrictive law." The reason I've added it is rather simple, after the laws came intact this was the official law against it and it is worth mentioning, it is found on almost anything to do with Nazi Germany articles since it was a prominent key of Nazism ideology.
@ My apologies Diannaa the information is not from the cited Evans book (I have put a full stop in between that and the other sentence that is cited for Evan's work).-- Windows66 ( talk) 19:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
That's no problem, I seen the source myself via Google books and it does in fact mention this which I was unaware of, thanks for adding this bit in.
Should this not be re-worded:
"These laws initially prohibited sexual relations and marriages between Aryans and Jews and were later extended to "Gypsies, Negroes or their bastard offspring"."
to:
These laws initially prohibited sexual relations and marriages at first between Aryans and Jews but was later extended to "Gypsies, Negroes or their bastard offspring".
Would this not make more sense?-- Windows66 ( talk) 12:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
That's better, thanks for the minor edit. I did not actually know that about Google books ten times from your IP to encourage you to buy the book, I guess you learn something new everyday. :D!-- Windows66 ( talk) 22:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
someone changed the intro of nazi germany from the original which is better:
to this:
the first is better and is more good and simple Ionchari ( talk) 19:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
"Not only were the Jews racially categorised, but German citizens were also classified according to how Nordic/Aryan they were."
This bit of text has no source and from all my reading and studying of this era it appears that this is not true. If you look at the racial Nuremberg Laws of Nazi Germany there is no mention of anything to do with physical appearance of the citizen but rather their ancestry and that is all that mattered. Only Europeans "Aryans" were able to be citizens of the Reich but again there is no mention of the physical look of one, the Nazis were well aware of the different sub-races within Europe and if you look at the top Nazi leaders there is hardly much resemblance between say Hitler and Goebbels (Hitler had blue eyes, Goebbels had brown eyes) but neither of them were viewed any higher or less than each other. Racial Nazi theorists also recognized all the different sub-races and categorized Germans into different sub-races such as Nordic and Alpine but they were not viewed higher than the other. While Himmler was certainly pro-Nordic (despite his own appearance) again there is no mention of "Nordics only". In fact there were many people who identified themselves as Jewish or were of Jewish descent with "Nordic looks" but this was not taken into account, physical appearance was not relevant in Nazi Germany. I will put a citation needed for this text as it seems to be incorrect.-- Windows66 ( talk) 12:21, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Diannaa, it just seems as though nowhere can confirm that German citizens (whether Germans themselves or "related blood") were judged on their appearance of being Nordic. Heydrich had a Nordic appearance but certainly was not viewed more highly than say Hitler. Most certainly there existed a stereotype "Jewish look" by Nazi propaganda but nothing suggest that Germans who were non-Nordic were viewed as not the same as Nordic Germans. It also says "Not only were the Jews racially categorised" which is also incorrect as either one was an Aryan, Jew or Mischlinge - there were no bits in between, apart from what is irrelevant in what we are discussing is that some Jews and Mischlinges were declared "honorary Aryans".
@Gaijin42 - that is not about German citizens though and them being categorized by their appearance of how "Nordic" one was. As you are aware, the Nazis wanted to reclaim all the people belonging to the "German race" and the people who looked Nordic were viewed as more than likely of Germanic descent, not all people who were Nordic and were tested for their "racial examination" got the so-called pass of being racially valuable by the Nazis. Many Germans were reclaimed that were not Nordic too.-- Windows66 ( talk) 17:00, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I've put a citation template on the text but if someone wants to remove it then go for it as that is what I also propose. Citizens of the Reich were never determined by their physical appearance.
@Kierzek - But the citizens of the Reich only had to prove their Aryan background, Nordic was irrelevant. Although the Aryan master race ideal stereotyped image was Nordic but not standard or essential.-- Windows66 ( talk) 18:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Kierzek, Windows66 and Diannaa - The statement did not claim that German citizens were judged by their physical appearance. It said they had to prove how German/Nordic/Aryan they were. This is an irrefutable fact. Not sure if you are aware of this or not but Germanic ancestry and Nordic/Aryan are related according to the Nazi understanding of the world. (See for instance: George L. Mosse, The Crisis of German Ideology: Intellectual Origins of the Third Reich. New York: Howard Fertig, 1999.) So what you are contending is essentially semantics. The reason Nordic and not merely Germanic heritage applies is that it was suitable for a German to marry an Englishman or somebody with roots in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, or Holland as they were considered racial cousins (Nordic/Aryan) despite that they were not German. For more on the particular topic of racial categorization, see: Eric Ehrenreich: The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0-253-34945-3 or Michael Burleigh and Wolfgang Wippermann. The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991 ( ISBN 0-521-39114-8), especially pp. 23-43 where Burleigh relates how in the context of Nazi Germany, nearly everything was about the "Volk" which in the community of the Third Reich meant race. (You could actually re-insert the sentence and refer to those pages in Burleigh and Wippermann's book). As you know, Hilter was obsessed with racial purity and avoiding ethnic pollution, hence the measure to identify Germans and distinguish them from Jews. Think for a moment of the number of instances where the Germans use racial delineations and the profound number of linguistic expressions in German in this regard: Rassengenossen (racial comrade), Volksgenossen (ethnic comrades), Volksgemeinschaft (ethnic community) Volksseele (soul of the people), Volkskörper (ethnic body politic), Rassenstaat (racial state), Rassenstolz (racial pride), Rassenpolitik (racial politics), Rassenschutz (racial protection) and of course, Rassenschande (despoliation or defilement of the race). To think that German citizens were not likewise categorized is defied by the mere existence of these words in the LTI (Lingua Tertii Imperii)- Language of the Third Reich (borrowing from Victor Klemperer here).
Another thing for you take a look at the Nazi use of the Ahnenpass to establish legitimate Germanic/Nordic/Aryan bloodlines. For those "wishing to join the SS - this went even further as they had to submit a detailed "Sippentafel" to prove purity but I will forego an explication hereby for the sake of brevity. Just suffice it to say that it went deeper into the historical genealogy than even the Ahnenpass. So for you to say that the Reich did not racially categorize its own people, is incorrect. Otherwise, why would it be necessary for pairs to be married to have to prove their ancestral purity - see: Der Ahnenpaß des Ehepaares. Verlag für Standesamtswesen, Berlin 1939. Both the Ahnenpass and the Familienstammbuch (another important component in establishing suitable racial identity for those in the Volksgemeinschaft) were about establishing racial purity for German citizens. Once you have reviewed these, you can also look at the work of Dr. Volkmar Wiess in his article: Weiss, Volkmar: Die Vorgeschichte des arischen Ahnenpasses. Teil I: Das sogenannte Blutsbekenntnis. Genealogie 50. Jg. (2001) S. 417-436; Teil II: Historische oder völkische Genealogie?, S. 497-507; Teil III: Die Machtergreifung der Viehzüchter. Heft 7/8. You may also want to peruse the two Wikipedia sites Nazism and Race and/or Racial Policy of Nazi Germany again for a better understanding over the connection between Nordic/Germanic/Aryan. Nowhere however, did the sentence mention the attempt to gauge human beings by appearance - although it did happen in varying degrees in and out of Germany.
The reason for the inclusion (the summary if you will) was to bring together the disparate subject matter about the Nazi seizure of power since it was not really coherently aggregated. It is akin to the closing of a book chapter and is of value to the reader. Historians would not do this unless it had merit. There are several other places where I find the Wikipage on Nazi Germany lacking in this respect but the section on the Nazi seizure of power was most overt due to the fact that so much material was glossed over at breakneck speed.
Once you come to the realization that the original sentence was NOT in error, please consider revising it back to its original form. Nevertheless, as I am not the originator of the page nor do I possess administrative authority for its content, I will defer to those of you who do. I will refrain from adding substantive content to this page in the future despite my corresponding expertise. ( talk)
Please refrain from getting personal WP:PA in trying to say what I and another have read. I have read a lot of books on Hitler, Nazism and Nazi Germany thank you very much. Anyways, the sentence that was removed was giving the indication that "German citizens" were judged on how Aryan/Nordic the individual was. This is incorrect, you could not be a German citizen without being Aryan under Nazi Germany, the Ahnenpass was just one method of gaining an Aryan certificate to show prove you was an Aryan. Of course there were elements of Nazism and some Nazis who were overwhelmingly pro-Nordic but the whole Aryan = Nordic (hence the Aryan/Nordic insert) is nonsense, Nordic was ideal but not standard. A German was a German in the eyes of the Nazis just like an Aryan was an Aryan in the eyes of the Nazis, do you really think many of the linguistic groups or ethnic groups that were officially "Aryan" were majority Nordic? As long as you could provide proof of your Aryan ancestry that was all there was to it. Yes, education quite often talked about the Nordic race but this was just ideal stuff not standard or compulsory. You can show evidence that the Nazis were pro-Nordic (this is undisputed) but the original sentence that got removed was saying that all German citizens got judged on how "Aryan/Nordic" one was which was not true... even Nazi racial theorists were aware that the majority of Germans were not Nordic.-- Windows66 ( talk) 10:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Of course it is not about who has read more but you was getting personal towards me and another user because you have the belief we have not read the books you cited. The thing is though Jews were not racially categorized, neither were Aryans and neither were mixed people, a Jew was a Jew, a Aryan was a Aryan, a Mischling was a Mischling. People were categorized into one of these three categories and in order to be a citizen of the Reich one had to be Aryan. In 1920 the Nazi party made it so that only people of "pure Aryan descent" could be party members and in 1935 with the Nuremberg racial laws coming intact all German citizens had to be Aryans. Also whilst one Jewish grandparent made you non-Aryan and thus not a German citizen he/she was not classified as a Jew but Mischling (part Aryan, part Jewish). That is the problem, the sentence was mis-leading as how I took it was that German citizens (after proving their Aryan ancestry) were judged on how Nordic their looked, which was not the case. You can cite as many sources as you want showing pro-Nordic elements of Nazi Germany and Nazism but the fact remains that citizens of the Reich who were Nordic were not viewed anymore "better" than non-Nordic Aryans. You should also be aware that a Mischlinge of second degree could marry a spouse classified as Aryan without permission required because the offspring would not interfere with the racial laws as the Jewishness would be past 1/4 ancestry.-- Windows66 ( talk) 08:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
People were racially classified into the three categories I have mentioned Jewish, Mischlinge, Aryan; A Jew was a Jew there was no "Ashkenazi Jews" or "Sephardic Jews" just "Jew" which were liable for several sorts of persecution such as loss of citizenship, forbidden to engage in sexual relations or marriage with Aryans, etc etc. Mischlinge were not viewed as Jews but people of both Aryan and Jewish ancestry and it depended on which degree what sort of persecution one suffered. Aryans were Aryans and were able to be citizens of the Reich, whether German or not as long as Aryan (European). You see the sentence is not correct and you seem to still not be forgetting this and are having a go at me for mentioning "Nordic Germans" but this is what the sentence mentioned that it somehow mattered whether you were Nordic or not and that Nordic equaled Aryan when neither of this is true. German citizens had to prove their Aryan ancestry in order to be German citizens not whether or not their had Nordic heritage or Nordic appearance, completely irrelevant. THE END.-- Windows66 ( talk) 11:08, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
What Richard J. Evans states is correct, the Nazis did want to get away with the valueless people Aryan or not, but this is not what "German citizens" were required to be categorised into but only to prove Aryan ancestry, it did not matter if they were Nordic or not (this is what was originally said Aryan/Nordic, a Nordic Aryan was not viewed higher than a non-Nordic Aryan. And all them categorising of what Evans talk about is not racially categorisation. This is now going off topic from racial categorisation to every day life categorisation, this is not what the original sentence stated.-- Windows66 ( talk) 17:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC) You're now what it appears to seem be confusing Nazis view on the Aryan master race and the actual requirements of the German citizen. In order to be a citizen of the Reich all one had to do was prove Aryan ancestry, please see Nuremberg Laws. The homosexuals were categorised as being of lesser value because they could not reproduce but they were still seen as part of the Aryan master race. Please provide proof from a quote from a speech or document by the Nazis saying they were of "lesser racial value" that is just one historians word. For example, one source states "While the Nazis did generally regard everyone with sexual preferences outside the petit-bourgeois norms as “community pests,” they did not necessarily see it as imperative to physically eliminate them, especially if they belonged to the “master race.”" and "Gay artists were generally not persecuted in occupied Paris as long as they were of Aryan origin." [18]. What Evans states is correct, but that is every day life categorising not racial categorising, if you see the racial laws of Nazi Germany people were identified as Aryan, Mischling or non-Aryan (Jewish, Gypsy, Negro) and that is it. Whether one was Nordic or not did not matter.-- Windows66 ( talk) 17:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Okay, so you now say the sentence was wrongly worded which indeed it was, so what do you suggest? The reason for the racial classifications is exactly what I have said all along, people were racially categorised of course. The reason for the charts was to distinguish between Aryans, Jews and Mischling people. Non-Aryans could not be citizens of the reich, the racial enemies of the state were Jews and gypsies. Germans to prove their Aryan ancestry which were all white Europeans so Dutch people, Polish people, Italian people, Irish people or whatever could be citizens of the Reich. But you going on about other categorising is irrelevant to what is being discussed as the every day life categorisation is not even doubted but we are on about the original sentence which said German citizens were judged on how Aryan/Nordic one was.-- Windows66 ( talk) 15:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
There is a Split proposal discussion on the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page that may be of interest to editors of this page. Lightbreather ( talk) 05:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
The whole entry has several bad mistakes. First of all, the Soviet Union was not Nazist. Subtitling under one photograph says something about occupied areas suggesting the Nazist SU occupied Germany. Which is wrong either way. Neither was the SU Nazist nor was it totally occupied.
Further it is wrong to say Church was suppressed during the rule of Adolf Hitler. This was not the case. It was certain Christian individuals like the brothers and sisters Scholl, Christian, who actively fought this new rule. More likely the German Church lost attention it had before. But I still think most of the Nazis had a baptism and a communion and were churchgoers as everybody else, more or less believers. The worse of the matter is not investigated nor published, not at all clarified, that is strong connections between parties and politicians of the time and the German Church. Himmler is said to have been a Jesuite or even had a Jesuite education. After the end of World War II, the German Church did not undertake any of the procedures of cleaning herself from the recent past. It went on doing as before. Denazification was stronger in the Eastern part of Germany, about the Western one the results are better known. Nothing is known - because it did not exist - about opposition against deportations and support of the Jews - whatever classification applied - undertaken by the German Church. One of the more recent failures in this respect was one or the other acitivity of the Pope Benedict, former Kardinal Ratzinger seated in Bavaria, who showed a certain unwillingness towards the problem. He even considered the holy status of the Pope of then. His generation still experienced the war and the rule of Hitler, nothing is known about personal opposition of him then, nor did anything become known afterwards which was related to denazification in a positive way.
Is there anything known precisely on the intelligence service of the Third Reich? Does it link to this expression Der Schwarze Ganter (lit. The Black Male Goose). I came across it once, nothing there to be found yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.250 ( talk) 02:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
The subtitles as well as the photographs are misleading.
Indoctrination was done using words (and violence).
The row of photographs touches certain issues prevalent in the GDR, for example women working in factories.
It looks as if there is a hidden subtext. Federal Republican German propaganda has a similar equation which is wrong: GDR = Third Reich. Further short comments are impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.250 ( talk) 02:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
There have been several attempts to change the name of this article. Here is a list of related archived discussions: May 2013; April 2012; April 2012; August 2010; March 2010; July 2007. Those who suggest changing it claim that the word Nazi is a slang derogative, propagandistic and biased term. Those who argue that the article's name should remain argue that Nazi Germany is the common name in English for the designated period in German history. The Polish, French, Spanish & Russian WP articles as well as Britannica (1973) use the title Third Reich. The German WP article uses the official name used by the then territorial government and specifies the period Deutsches Reich 1933 bis 1945. I agree that the term Nazi is not an appropriate encyclopedic designation for a country and suggest the less biased and also widely used in English Third Reich. Axelode ( talk) 07:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
There is also no state called "The Third Reich". EB uses the phrase "Nazi Germany" repeatedly and exclusively however, whenever they are discussing the topic in related articles, not "Third Reich" btw. That they named their section title "Third Reich" in their massive 100+ page article entitled "Germany" has more to do with their structural organization imo, than any editorial decision. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:41, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Back in October 2008, Josh wrote a very interesting exposé opening the door to a much more complex reorganization around Germany's articles. Food for thoughts... Axelode ( talk) 06:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the Gun control talk page which may be of interest to editors of this page:
Thank you. -- Lightbreather ( talk) 16:38, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Should the term "the Third Reich have it's own article? 71.194.44.209 ( talk) 21:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
The Third Reich is the proper name, as I see 'Nazi Germany' is a disgrace because the entire country was not nazist's. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Foreshadowing111 (
talk •
contribs)
23:12, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
The current infobox map gets the point across and is very well put together. I believe it should be included somewhere in the article. However, it is a little too complicated and just all over the place to be honest. I feel this map I created is better for the infobox. It shows Greater Germany, areas under Nazi control and even puppet governments of the Nazis. I don't feel the need to include Germany's allies and the Western allies. You dont see the infobox map of the US highlighting its allies. My map is the map used by a majority of infoboxes so it would fit better with other articles. Reverend Mick man34 ♣ ( talk) 19:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I recently suggested as an addition to "External Links" the following page at the Spartacus Educational website: http://spartacus-educational.com/GERnazigermany.htm . This struck me as a useful resource because it includes biographies of over 140 important figures in Nazi Germany. (In retrospect, perhaps it should have been in "Further Reading".) Editor Kierzek reverted the edit on the grounds that Spartacus Educational is not considered WP:RS source. I would be grateful for other opinions on this. (It is briefly discussed here: /info/en/?search=User_talk:Kierzek)
I have been consulting the Spartacus website for some years and find it a useful resource. It IS the work of one man, and he appears to have an interest in the civil rights movement, women's suffrage etc, but I have never detected any bias in individual articles. I have always found the footnotes and references useful, and errors rare. Any thoughts...? Tartarusrussell ( talk) 14:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
I saw Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spartacus Educational earlier today and I also saw reference to this discussion on User:Kierzek's talk page. As it pertains to Spartacus Educational, I have very little knowledge of military history but I am more familiar with issues related to various conspiracy theories involving the assassination of JFK. I agree with the others who indicate that it is not a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. Simkin gives an inordinate amount of weight to primary source material, including people who simply make stuff up, then reports it as fact. A source that accepts unreliable or uncorroborated sources is not a reliable source. Likely fails WP:ELNO #2. Location ( talk) 06:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
The article refers to Nazi Germany as "Das Drittes Reich"; that is a grammatical mistake. It should be "Das dritte Reich". "Dritte" is not capitalised in German as it is not a noun, even in a context where, in English, every word would be capitalised (eg. The Third Reich, or the title of a book or movie). And when using a definite article (in this case "das") the adjective ends with "e", regardless of whether it's masculine, feminine or neutral. "Dritt" (or any adjective) would only end with "-er" or "-es" when preceded by an indefinite article or none at all, eg. "Ein drittes Reich" or "drittes Reich". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.234.54.99 ( talk) 10:40, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
The article's first para is not neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.202.232.93 ( talk) 08:13, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 23:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Totalitarian dictatorship is not a form of government. Totalitarianism is a concept, and dictatorships are not forms of government. -- TIAYN ( talk) 23:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
What exactly is the criteria for this list? Anywhere in Europe a German soldier stood? I'd think a list of countries that today comprise what was once Nazi Germany should be limited to, you know, areas that were actually Nazi Germany at one point. Bulgaria, for instance, was never incorporated into Grossdeutschland, nor were half of the other entries in the list. Parsecboy ( talk) 17:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
The list was re-added in the past and substantially expanded today without any explanation. I've removed the whole thing. -- NeilN talk to me 02:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Does this title already ok? Nazi Germany? I mean you can write" old germany", or "national" But not "nazi" - its a swearword of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesseblue2006 ( talk • contribs) 07:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
"National Socialist Germany" is not a common name for Nazi Germany, with only 74,600 Google hits compared to 9,190,000 for "Nazi Germany". I don't think it belongs in the opening sentence. Discussion welcome, -- Diannaa ( talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Is this really a good idea? How is it helpful to list a government of Nazi Germany as the successor to Nazi Germany? Has this been discussed? Am I missing something? We're talking about a government headed by Dönitz, a high-ranking member of the NSDAP, at Hitler's own appointment, and clearly representing the same German state ("Greater German Reich") that existed up to that point. It came about in what is, as far as I can tell, a perfectly legal transfer of power within the same context - that of Nazi Germany (since Hitler's orders were law). -- Director ( talk) 11:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I find this strange, yes, I understand countries/entities such as Vichy France or Slovakia or the state of Croatia were allies/puppets of Germany, but Denmark was under occupation. Guy355 ( talk) 06:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. P.S It also changed later on for countries such as Vichy France, when in 1943 Germany occupied the rest of the free zone of mainland France. Guy355 ( talk) 10:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
The capital should be say Berlin (1933-1945) and then Flensburg (1945). -- 76.105.96.92 ( talk) 21:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I can see there has been some discussion about the current map featured in the infobox, but I still wonder why Denmark, Yugoslavia and Greece is not shown as "military-administered occupied territories"? I'm aware Denmark was allowed to maintain partial sovereignty, but was nevertheless occupied by German forces until May 1945. Jonas Vinther • ( speak to me!) 12:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)