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Further to the previous discussion, in 'The Palantir', Gandalf mutters this poem:
I am correct in thinking this suggests that the Nine were in fact from Numenor???-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I wonder. Tolkien always listened to the music of a word, and was concerned here to stress the royal ancestry. I notice that the three times three suggests groupings, i.e. three major lords each leading two minor ones. Interesting. But certainly not the bad guys. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:08, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
To clarify: Tolkien refers to three of the nazgûl as having been Númenórean lords, but the nazgûl first appeared around SA 2250, well before Sauron came to Númenor. My reading was that he gave the nine rings to men in Middle-earth (and that the three lords were resident in places like Umbar or Lond Daer), so whether the three ever returned to Númenor is not clear (and dubious, IMHO).
I agree with Jack that "tall ships and tall kings three times three" is puzzling. The ships were nine, but the tall kings only three. The poem clearly refers to the flight from Númenor, not to later kings. One might read it as each king having three ships, but Silmarillion p.280 gives Elendil four, Isildur three, and Anárion two. The index of LOTR ("star") says that the ships bearing the seven palantíri each flew a banner with a star (hence "seven stars"). So I have no easy solution to contribute.
But I also agree with our chap in Chiswick that the poem has nothing to do with the nazgûl.
-- Elphion ( talk) 20:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
(I'll also add my usual caveat that complete consistency is not to be expected: the tale grew over time, not quite under the master's control! Tolkien wrote at one point that he had not foreseen the palantíri until one crashed down from Orthanc -- and making its appearance that late clearly indicates that the mythology was never clearly outlined in advance. Over the scope of thousands of pages, some slip-ups are bound to crop up. -- Elphion ( talk) 20:09, 3 January 2021 (UTC) )
The philology comment about Gaelic was removed by Chiswick Chap edit 15/02/20; he termed it 'nonsense'. In fact the very issue was addressed by JRRT himself in a 1967 draft letter, Collected Letters 1981 pp.384-5. In Garlic nazg or nasc is a ring. Tolkien stated that this may have been an unintentional derivation from attempted study of Gaelic as a younger man. IAC-62 ( talk) 16:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Love the garlic. Yes, I read the letter some months ago. Fact remains, it's Black Speech whatever the unconscious associations. It might be worth a footnote or maybe a talk page mention suits it nicely. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 18:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Black Breath (band) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 13:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Nazgûl has been listed as one of the
Language and literature good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: May 28, 2020. ( Reviewed version). |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Fell beast page were merged into Nazgûl on 24 March 2009. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Further to the previous discussion, in 'The Palantir', Gandalf mutters this poem:
I am correct in thinking this suggests that the Nine were in fact from Numenor???-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I wonder. Tolkien always listened to the music of a word, and was concerned here to stress the royal ancestry. I notice that the three times three suggests groupings, i.e. three major lords each leading two minor ones. Interesting. But certainly not the bad guys. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:08, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
To clarify: Tolkien refers to three of the nazgûl as having been Númenórean lords, but the nazgûl first appeared around SA 2250, well before Sauron came to Númenor. My reading was that he gave the nine rings to men in Middle-earth (and that the three lords were resident in places like Umbar or Lond Daer), so whether the three ever returned to Númenor is not clear (and dubious, IMHO).
I agree with Jack that "tall ships and tall kings three times three" is puzzling. The ships were nine, but the tall kings only three. The poem clearly refers to the flight from Númenor, not to later kings. One might read it as each king having three ships, but Silmarillion p.280 gives Elendil four, Isildur three, and Anárion two. The index of LOTR ("star") says that the ships bearing the seven palantíri each flew a banner with a star (hence "seven stars"). So I have no easy solution to contribute.
But I also agree with our chap in Chiswick that the poem has nothing to do with the nazgûl.
-- Elphion ( talk) 20:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
(I'll also add my usual caveat that complete consistency is not to be expected: the tale grew over time, not quite under the master's control! Tolkien wrote at one point that he had not foreseen the palantíri until one crashed down from Orthanc -- and making its appearance that late clearly indicates that the mythology was never clearly outlined in advance. Over the scope of thousands of pages, some slip-ups are bound to crop up. -- Elphion ( talk) 20:09, 3 January 2021 (UTC) )
The philology comment about Gaelic was removed by Chiswick Chap edit 15/02/20; he termed it 'nonsense'. In fact the very issue was addressed by JRRT himself in a 1967 draft letter, Collected Letters 1981 pp.384-5. In Garlic nazg or nasc is a ring. Tolkien stated that this may have been an unintentional derivation from attempted study of Gaelic as a younger man. IAC-62 ( talk) 16:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Love the garlic. Yes, I read the letter some months ago. Fact remains, it's Black Speech whatever the unconscious associations. It might be worth a footnote or maybe a talk page mention suits it nicely. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 18:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Black Breath (band) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 13:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)