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Contrary to propoganda or ignorance, the Nauvoo Charter does NOT "incorporate" the Illinois nor the US Constitutions. At most this is something like a counterpart to provisions like the Supremacy clause of the US constitution...a "subordination clause" if I may call it that. It is an unusual provision. The charter does give the Illinois state circuit courts appellate jurisdiction over Nauvoo's municipal courts, but it does not give Fed courts jurisdiction to rule on the matter nor could a city or state give juridiction to a fed court, nor would nor should a fed court rule on the matter because it is only a matter of local and state law...at most this sort of quasi-fed-law issue could only be appealed as far as IL's supreme court as odd as that may seem to give a state the final word on interpreting a quasi-fed-law. B
Andy, thanks for engaging positively on this topic. This is a complex legal issue that has not been adequately addressed AKAIK. Ultimately, the legality of the censorship at that time is indeterminate since the case was never run thru the courts...so even if the law was clear, the most an intelligent mind could do is give an educated guess as to how the state judiciary would apply the law. A further problem is, even if it were run thru the courts, second-guessers who didn't like the outcome in this case wouldn't stop arguing; they would argue the courts decided wrongly because [fill in the blank]. Some of the issues would be novel to the judiciary at that time too, I'm sure...e.g., much of federal constitutional rights was only developed and matured in the last few decades. It will take some good research to develop the article substantially further, but some more tweaking might help the current article B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It's not clear what distinction you're tryin to draw b/w the limited powers granted to the fed gov't by the US constitution (ratified by the states with the states reserving all remaining powers to themselves under the 10th amendment) AND the powers (limited or plenary) given to local gov't entities by their respective states. Both of these are completely different structures for allocating power. As I read the 1818 Illinois constitution, it is very poorly drafted. Maybe that's why the IL constitution was later revised, I don't know. But take, for example, the US const 14th Amend: it specifically states that "no state" shall infringe on due process, etc. The IL constitution's provision on free speech is terribly ambiguous: "The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty." Oookay, "no law". Does no law mean merely no state law? Does that include no local law? And that's not the only ambiguity in that provision. B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The quip claiming "even Oaks may have waffled later from his earlier defense" is unfounded. Allow me to quote from a recent (May 2005) talk given by Dallin H. Oaks, in which he confirms his original position: "...Few men have been the targets of more assaults on their mission or their memory than Joseph Smith. I investigated some of these charges by personal research in original records in Illinois where Joseph lived the last five years of his life. The event that focused anti-Mormon hostilities that led directly to his murder was the action of mayor Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo city council in suppressing an opposition newspaper. Early Mormon historians including B. H. Roberts conceded that this action was illegal. However, as I researched the subject as a young law professor, I was surprised to find a legal basis for this action in the Illinois law of 1844. My law review article reminded that the guarantee of freedom of the press in the Unites States Constituion was not declared applicable to the actions of city and state governments until 1931 and then only by a 5 to 4 court's reliance on a constitutional amendment adopted in 1868. There were many suppressions of newspapers on the frontier in the period before the Civil War. We should judge the actions of our predecessors on the basis of the laws and commandments and circumstances of their day, not ours" (starting a little after 34:30 in Session 3, available here: [1]). Unless the claim of Oaks' alleged "waffling" can be proven with a direct quote--with reference--the claim should be removed. --tJM, 22 Jul 2005
(Smith was in fact actively seeking multiple wives in secret, while publicly denying such rumors and accounts.) Is this a point of criticism or a substantiated fact? by ex-lds mbr. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.166.159.4 ( talk • contribs) 15:09, June 1, 2006 (UTC)
It is my feeling that Mr. Oaks current position in the LDS is very relevant as to his POV on this subject, and should be included in the article itself and not just as a footnote. Duke53 | Talk 04:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Duke53, it sounds like you think Oaks's analysis might have been tainted by his pro-LDS point of view. If that were indeed the case, do you think it would have been likely that such an unsound analysis would be published in the Utah Law Review and be favorably cited by the U.S. Supreme Court? In particular, doesn't the rigorous editorial process of a law review journal weigh in your mind against the assumption that his work was apologetic rather than objective? By bringing Oaks's current position in the LDS church into the article, forty years after his analysis was done, aren't you making a bigger issue of his supposed bias than the law review editors or the Supreme Court justices have done? And are you comfortable with the idea that any legal scholar's commentary on the subject (if any besides Oaks have done so) should have their current religious activity mentioned, in case they too have a potential bias towards or against Mormonism? alanyst / talk/ 05:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's a problem with noting his LDS affiliation, but you wanted to note his membership in the Quorum of the 12, which is a separate issue. – SESmith 06:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
[Edit conflict.] Okay, good to know where you're coming from, Duke53. I basically agree with SESmith that Oaks's current position has little relevance to his analysis of forty years ago, but that his status at the time of the analysis as an LDS member perhaps merits a mention, something like this:
However, a legal analysis of the issue was undertaken by an LDS law professor, Dallin H. Oaks, while he was teaching at the University of Chicago Law School.
That mention of his religion, together with the link to Oaks's own article that details his professional and ecclesiastical activities, should be sufficient to alert the reader to possible influences on his legal scholarship, I think. Do you agree, Duke53? It's actually not entirely to my liking, as I don't care for the implication that just because someone has a set of beliefs that their academically-reviewed scholarship is questionable, but I can see how omitting mention of his background can make it look like someone is trying to sneak in an apologetic viewpoint to the article. I don't believe anyone's trying to do that, but if it makes the article seem more honest then I'm okay with it, for my part. alanyst / talk/ 07:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The ironic thing about this "conspiracy-theory"-style outlook being floated here is that if there is any law review in the North America that tries extremely hard to avoid presenting or appearing to present pro-LDS Church material, it is the Utah Law Review. The University of Utah—and particularly its law school—is not exactly well-known for its positive view of Mormonism or the LDS Church. Had the article been published in a BYU law review, your argument might have legs. I also don't understand why pet theories about how Oaks got to his current position is in any way relevant to this article. – SESmith 01:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
You obviously aren't familiar with the editorial biases of the Utah Law Review. It's called "overcompensation". Oaks has published other legal works touching on Mormonism, some of which have been published by the University of Illinois Press. I would bet that you, due to your personal biases and pet theories, would find these just as suspect, despite the fact that they were not published in Utah. – SESmith 02:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, you don't need to apply WP article standards to things someone writes on the Talk page, you know. That's a bit ridiculous. It's not like I'm including my opinions about ULR in the article. And incidentally, my point was not that the ULR is biased: one of my comments above clarifies that there was a general perception amongst lawyers that they tried to avoid being or looking pro-LDS Church. If you misunderstood my point due to my jovial, colloquial and abbreviated style of writing on a talk page, that's really what it was. You did, however, state without much equivication that Oaks gained his current position by avoiding the publication of anything that "might upset the powers-that-be" of the LDS Church, and you haven't modified this view with a subsequent comment. So if you're worried about OR on the talk page, it's right under your nose. :) Silly ... Let's keep the OR worries to matters that are actually edited into the article.
I think that it could probably constitute a violation of WP:OR to require the article to state Oaks's current position in a section talking about a piece of legal research and writing he produced in the 1960s, which was the original issue here.- SESmith 08:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the problem here. Oaks at the time was a law professor with a prestigious clerkship and few years of practice at Kirkland & Ellis under his belt. Being a Latter-day Saint, his analysis could have been biased, but we're not citing here him as an apostle. We're quoting him as a Mormon attorney and professor. I think the most problematic part of this article is right before the Oaks quote. It seems to be original legal analysis from primary sources. Can we get a citation for it? Cool Hand Luke 08:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Back to the previous discussion, I would suggest that it is POV or agenda-driven to insist that Oaks be called out as a current LDS apostle in the article. This info, which is certainly interesting, should remain in the footnote. Only someone with a conspiracy theorist's mind (or an axe to grind about the LDS) would feel the need to stress this fact, which has little to do with Oaks' research as a lawyer. I'm not Mormon and I see no justification for the inclusion in the body of the article. Best, A Sniper ( talk) 16:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
How about agreeing to settle the editorial question by asking an uninvolved editor for their opinion as to the amount of emphasis that should be given to Oaks's current position? Can the two of you mutually agree on a person to ask? Maybe User:Newyorkbrad, who is an arbitrator here, a lawyer in real life, and widely considered on-wiki and off-wiki to be a fair-minded person? (To my knowledge, NYB has not been involved in any of the LDS-related disputes, so I have no reason to believe he'd be biased one way or the other.) Or pick someone else...just please focus on resolving the dispute. alanyst / talk/ 16:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
For the record, I restate my position from above. I don't think adding Oaks title is a big deal but I don't think it's necessary—we're citing him as a professor at the University of Chicago Law School who had a legal and academic career ahead of him, not as an Apostle of the LDS Church. However, since I have affiliations with both institutions, I may not be an impartial party.
To me the bigger problem is the mass of apparent original research that precedes the section on Oaks' analysis. I'm no expert on Illinois constitutional jurisprudence, and I would like to see some citation for the proposition that the Illinois Constitution meant x or y in 1844. As with the U.S. Constitution, interpretations of state constitutions can change over time, and I think this whole mass should be deleted unless there's some existing secondary analysis we can use. This section seems to have entered the article as a sort of OR debate early in the article's history. Cool Hand Luke 21:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter 'what' Oaks was when he wrote this ... it does 'matter' what he is now, and his high rank in the lds church is relevant.
Typical WP ploy used here: say that something should remain as it is until it has been thoroughly discussed, then do not actually have that discussion. Let's have this go before the entire group of WP editors and hear their thoughts. I am sure that this information will be included then. Duke53 | Talk 15:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The article includes the legal analysis of a historical event by Dallin H. Oaks, written and published in the Utah Law Review in 1965 when Oaks was a law professor at a University of Chicago. Oaks concluded that the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press by LDS and Nauvoo municipal leaders would not have violated the constitutional principles of 1844, although it could have been the basis of a tort suit. Oaks is now a high-ranking authority in the LDS Church, an Apostle. Should his current status be mentioned inline in the article, as opposed to merely in a footnote?
We would like outsiders to the dispute, particularly those who have no connection to the LDS Church. Most of this talk page discusses this dispute, so feel free to read through it. Thanks in advance for your help! Cool Hand Luke 17:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The current article relies quite a bit on the Salt Lake Tribune article. There has been a lot published on the episode in a variety of history books (Bushman, Donna Hill, Browdie, etc), which I consider to be more authoritative. In particular, the allegation that Joseph Smith approached Law's wife is one that I was not familiar with, though I have read quite a bit on the subject, and that seems to stem mostly from the newspaper article. Honestly, I don't know anything about the reliability of the allegation, but I do know that newspaper articles do have a pretty high rate of getting facts wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.42.9.150 ( talk) 20:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Why do we even care WHAT Oaks thinks? Is it because he's a professor with an opinion-- no. Everyone's got an opinion and it is WP:SYNTH to just start mixing them.
So, my instinct was to chop the entire Oak's section as OR/Synth. BUT-- Oaks isn't just some professor, he's a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles! THAT is why we care about his opinion, much like we might care about the opinion of a Catholic cardinal.
If I'm correct that Oaks's opinion is relevant because of his standing in the church, then we can include Oaks analysis, citing inline his high standing. Alternatively, if we think Oak's standing in the church is irrelevant, then Oaks' opinions aren't worth hearing absent some evidence they're influential.
We need to get this right-- he's a religious leader with an influential opinion, or he's a non-historian with a non-notable personal view. I think it's the former. --20:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
So, let's assume for the moment that we should ascribe ONLY secular weight to Oaks' words-- which is one way to do it.
This creates a new problem. I think every reader to the article is going to ask "So, what do modern mormons think of this incident?". To use an example, what if the article on Jesus's Cleansing of the Temple never mentioned what modern christians make of the event.
There should be a section where we mention that this wasn't just dispute about a free press-- the events have theological significance that should be talked about.
I think Oaks is one great spokesperson for this, but if we don't want to bring up his religion, then we should find a different source or two to explain the mormon perspective and make a new section for it.
Readers want to know "What does the LDS church say about this"-- if we're not pointing them to Oaks, let's fill that hole with a different source. -- HectorMoffet ( talk) 05:24, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
The overall percentage of this article which is directly quoted text versus summary is much too high. Please see wp:QUOTEFARM. I tried to trim this down a few days ago, summarizing trivial & non-central information, but this was out-of-hand reverted. Since then the overuse of quotes in this article has only gotten worse in the article. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 19:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
This section is in a sad state. It contains a singular response by one Mormon who essentially claims that its legal for a local government council to hold court and circumvention justice systems. This is not the case in the US. The singular source indicates that this is the modern authority on the matter, which is not the case either. I have no problem with the piece staying if it has counter arguments presented, but alone it is not suitable for Wikipedia. I will delete the section again if no additional material is found. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 16:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I was a bit shocked to discover that this page had asserted in its lead for almost two years that the destruction of the press was by an unauthorised mob, against the wishes of Smith and the City Council; despite our sources (including LDS ones, and ones in Smith's own words) saying clearly that he ordered the press to be destroyed and that this was carried out by the town marshal. Please watch out for inaccurate and unsourced information! TSP ( talk) 23:15, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nauvoo Expositor article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Contrary to propoganda or ignorance, the Nauvoo Charter does NOT "incorporate" the Illinois nor the US Constitutions. At most this is something like a counterpart to provisions like the Supremacy clause of the US constitution...a "subordination clause" if I may call it that. It is an unusual provision. The charter does give the Illinois state circuit courts appellate jurisdiction over Nauvoo's municipal courts, but it does not give Fed courts jurisdiction to rule on the matter nor could a city or state give juridiction to a fed court, nor would nor should a fed court rule on the matter because it is only a matter of local and state law...at most this sort of quasi-fed-law issue could only be appealed as far as IL's supreme court as odd as that may seem to give a state the final word on interpreting a quasi-fed-law. B
Andy, thanks for engaging positively on this topic. This is a complex legal issue that has not been adequately addressed AKAIK. Ultimately, the legality of the censorship at that time is indeterminate since the case was never run thru the courts...so even if the law was clear, the most an intelligent mind could do is give an educated guess as to how the state judiciary would apply the law. A further problem is, even if it were run thru the courts, second-guessers who didn't like the outcome in this case wouldn't stop arguing; they would argue the courts decided wrongly because [fill in the blank]. Some of the issues would be novel to the judiciary at that time too, I'm sure...e.g., much of federal constitutional rights was only developed and matured in the last few decades. It will take some good research to develop the article substantially further, but some more tweaking might help the current article B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It's not clear what distinction you're tryin to draw b/w the limited powers granted to the fed gov't by the US constitution (ratified by the states with the states reserving all remaining powers to themselves under the 10th amendment) AND the powers (limited or plenary) given to local gov't entities by their respective states. Both of these are completely different structures for allocating power. As I read the 1818 Illinois constitution, it is very poorly drafted. Maybe that's why the IL constitution was later revised, I don't know. But take, for example, the US const 14th Amend: it specifically states that "no state" shall infringe on due process, etc. The IL constitution's provision on free speech is terribly ambiguous: "The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty." Oookay, "no law". Does no law mean merely no state law? Does that include no local law? And that's not the only ambiguity in that provision. B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The quip claiming "even Oaks may have waffled later from his earlier defense" is unfounded. Allow me to quote from a recent (May 2005) talk given by Dallin H. Oaks, in which he confirms his original position: "...Few men have been the targets of more assaults on their mission or their memory than Joseph Smith. I investigated some of these charges by personal research in original records in Illinois where Joseph lived the last five years of his life. The event that focused anti-Mormon hostilities that led directly to his murder was the action of mayor Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo city council in suppressing an opposition newspaper. Early Mormon historians including B. H. Roberts conceded that this action was illegal. However, as I researched the subject as a young law professor, I was surprised to find a legal basis for this action in the Illinois law of 1844. My law review article reminded that the guarantee of freedom of the press in the Unites States Constituion was not declared applicable to the actions of city and state governments until 1931 and then only by a 5 to 4 court's reliance on a constitutional amendment adopted in 1868. There were many suppressions of newspapers on the frontier in the period before the Civil War. We should judge the actions of our predecessors on the basis of the laws and commandments and circumstances of their day, not ours" (starting a little after 34:30 in Session 3, available here: [1]). Unless the claim of Oaks' alleged "waffling" can be proven with a direct quote--with reference--the claim should be removed. --tJM, 22 Jul 2005
(Smith was in fact actively seeking multiple wives in secret, while publicly denying such rumors and accounts.) Is this a point of criticism or a substantiated fact? by ex-lds mbr. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.166.159.4 ( talk • contribs) 15:09, June 1, 2006 (UTC)
It is my feeling that Mr. Oaks current position in the LDS is very relevant as to his POV on this subject, and should be included in the article itself and not just as a footnote. Duke53 | Talk 04:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Duke53, it sounds like you think Oaks's analysis might have been tainted by his pro-LDS point of view. If that were indeed the case, do you think it would have been likely that such an unsound analysis would be published in the Utah Law Review and be favorably cited by the U.S. Supreme Court? In particular, doesn't the rigorous editorial process of a law review journal weigh in your mind against the assumption that his work was apologetic rather than objective? By bringing Oaks's current position in the LDS church into the article, forty years after his analysis was done, aren't you making a bigger issue of his supposed bias than the law review editors or the Supreme Court justices have done? And are you comfortable with the idea that any legal scholar's commentary on the subject (if any besides Oaks have done so) should have their current religious activity mentioned, in case they too have a potential bias towards or against Mormonism? alanyst / talk/ 05:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's a problem with noting his LDS affiliation, but you wanted to note his membership in the Quorum of the 12, which is a separate issue. – SESmith 06:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
[Edit conflict.] Okay, good to know where you're coming from, Duke53. I basically agree with SESmith that Oaks's current position has little relevance to his analysis of forty years ago, but that his status at the time of the analysis as an LDS member perhaps merits a mention, something like this:
However, a legal analysis of the issue was undertaken by an LDS law professor, Dallin H. Oaks, while he was teaching at the University of Chicago Law School.
That mention of his religion, together with the link to Oaks's own article that details his professional and ecclesiastical activities, should be sufficient to alert the reader to possible influences on his legal scholarship, I think. Do you agree, Duke53? It's actually not entirely to my liking, as I don't care for the implication that just because someone has a set of beliefs that their academically-reviewed scholarship is questionable, but I can see how omitting mention of his background can make it look like someone is trying to sneak in an apologetic viewpoint to the article. I don't believe anyone's trying to do that, but if it makes the article seem more honest then I'm okay with it, for my part. alanyst / talk/ 07:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The ironic thing about this "conspiracy-theory"-style outlook being floated here is that if there is any law review in the North America that tries extremely hard to avoid presenting or appearing to present pro-LDS Church material, it is the Utah Law Review. The University of Utah—and particularly its law school—is not exactly well-known for its positive view of Mormonism or the LDS Church. Had the article been published in a BYU law review, your argument might have legs. I also don't understand why pet theories about how Oaks got to his current position is in any way relevant to this article. – SESmith 01:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
You obviously aren't familiar with the editorial biases of the Utah Law Review. It's called "overcompensation". Oaks has published other legal works touching on Mormonism, some of which have been published by the University of Illinois Press. I would bet that you, due to your personal biases and pet theories, would find these just as suspect, despite the fact that they were not published in Utah. – SESmith 02:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, you don't need to apply WP article standards to things someone writes on the Talk page, you know. That's a bit ridiculous. It's not like I'm including my opinions about ULR in the article. And incidentally, my point was not that the ULR is biased: one of my comments above clarifies that there was a general perception amongst lawyers that they tried to avoid being or looking pro-LDS Church. If you misunderstood my point due to my jovial, colloquial and abbreviated style of writing on a talk page, that's really what it was. You did, however, state without much equivication that Oaks gained his current position by avoiding the publication of anything that "might upset the powers-that-be" of the LDS Church, and you haven't modified this view with a subsequent comment. So if you're worried about OR on the talk page, it's right under your nose. :) Silly ... Let's keep the OR worries to matters that are actually edited into the article.
I think that it could probably constitute a violation of WP:OR to require the article to state Oaks's current position in a section talking about a piece of legal research and writing he produced in the 1960s, which was the original issue here.- SESmith 08:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the problem here. Oaks at the time was a law professor with a prestigious clerkship and few years of practice at Kirkland & Ellis under his belt. Being a Latter-day Saint, his analysis could have been biased, but we're not citing here him as an apostle. We're quoting him as a Mormon attorney and professor. I think the most problematic part of this article is right before the Oaks quote. It seems to be original legal analysis from primary sources. Can we get a citation for it? Cool Hand Luke 08:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Back to the previous discussion, I would suggest that it is POV or agenda-driven to insist that Oaks be called out as a current LDS apostle in the article. This info, which is certainly interesting, should remain in the footnote. Only someone with a conspiracy theorist's mind (or an axe to grind about the LDS) would feel the need to stress this fact, which has little to do with Oaks' research as a lawyer. I'm not Mormon and I see no justification for the inclusion in the body of the article. Best, A Sniper ( talk) 16:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
How about agreeing to settle the editorial question by asking an uninvolved editor for their opinion as to the amount of emphasis that should be given to Oaks's current position? Can the two of you mutually agree on a person to ask? Maybe User:Newyorkbrad, who is an arbitrator here, a lawyer in real life, and widely considered on-wiki and off-wiki to be a fair-minded person? (To my knowledge, NYB has not been involved in any of the LDS-related disputes, so I have no reason to believe he'd be biased one way or the other.) Or pick someone else...just please focus on resolving the dispute. alanyst / talk/ 16:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
For the record, I restate my position from above. I don't think adding Oaks title is a big deal but I don't think it's necessary—we're citing him as a professor at the University of Chicago Law School who had a legal and academic career ahead of him, not as an Apostle of the LDS Church. However, since I have affiliations with both institutions, I may not be an impartial party.
To me the bigger problem is the mass of apparent original research that precedes the section on Oaks' analysis. I'm no expert on Illinois constitutional jurisprudence, and I would like to see some citation for the proposition that the Illinois Constitution meant x or y in 1844. As with the U.S. Constitution, interpretations of state constitutions can change over time, and I think this whole mass should be deleted unless there's some existing secondary analysis we can use. This section seems to have entered the article as a sort of OR debate early in the article's history. Cool Hand Luke 21:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter 'what' Oaks was when he wrote this ... it does 'matter' what he is now, and his high rank in the lds church is relevant.
Typical WP ploy used here: say that something should remain as it is until it has been thoroughly discussed, then do not actually have that discussion. Let's have this go before the entire group of WP editors and hear their thoughts. I am sure that this information will be included then. Duke53 | Talk 15:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The article includes the legal analysis of a historical event by Dallin H. Oaks, written and published in the Utah Law Review in 1965 when Oaks was a law professor at a University of Chicago. Oaks concluded that the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press by LDS and Nauvoo municipal leaders would not have violated the constitutional principles of 1844, although it could have been the basis of a tort suit. Oaks is now a high-ranking authority in the LDS Church, an Apostle. Should his current status be mentioned inline in the article, as opposed to merely in a footnote?
We would like outsiders to the dispute, particularly those who have no connection to the LDS Church. Most of this talk page discusses this dispute, so feel free to read through it. Thanks in advance for your help! Cool Hand Luke 17:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The current article relies quite a bit on the Salt Lake Tribune article. There has been a lot published on the episode in a variety of history books (Bushman, Donna Hill, Browdie, etc), which I consider to be more authoritative. In particular, the allegation that Joseph Smith approached Law's wife is one that I was not familiar with, though I have read quite a bit on the subject, and that seems to stem mostly from the newspaper article. Honestly, I don't know anything about the reliability of the allegation, but I do know that newspaper articles do have a pretty high rate of getting facts wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.42.9.150 ( talk) 20:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Why do we even care WHAT Oaks thinks? Is it because he's a professor with an opinion-- no. Everyone's got an opinion and it is WP:SYNTH to just start mixing them.
So, my instinct was to chop the entire Oak's section as OR/Synth. BUT-- Oaks isn't just some professor, he's a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles! THAT is why we care about his opinion, much like we might care about the opinion of a Catholic cardinal.
If I'm correct that Oaks's opinion is relevant because of his standing in the church, then we can include Oaks analysis, citing inline his high standing. Alternatively, if we think Oak's standing in the church is irrelevant, then Oaks' opinions aren't worth hearing absent some evidence they're influential.
We need to get this right-- he's a religious leader with an influential opinion, or he's a non-historian with a non-notable personal view. I think it's the former. --20:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
So, let's assume for the moment that we should ascribe ONLY secular weight to Oaks' words-- which is one way to do it.
This creates a new problem. I think every reader to the article is going to ask "So, what do modern mormons think of this incident?". To use an example, what if the article on Jesus's Cleansing of the Temple never mentioned what modern christians make of the event.
There should be a section where we mention that this wasn't just dispute about a free press-- the events have theological significance that should be talked about.
I think Oaks is one great spokesperson for this, but if we don't want to bring up his religion, then we should find a different source or two to explain the mormon perspective and make a new section for it.
Readers want to know "What does the LDS church say about this"-- if we're not pointing them to Oaks, let's fill that hole with a different source. -- HectorMoffet ( talk) 05:24, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
The overall percentage of this article which is directly quoted text versus summary is much too high. Please see wp:QUOTEFARM. I tried to trim this down a few days ago, summarizing trivial & non-central information, but this was out-of-hand reverted. Since then the overuse of quotes in this article has only gotten worse in the article. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 19:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
This section is in a sad state. It contains a singular response by one Mormon who essentially claims that its legal for a local government council to hold court and circumvention justice systems. This is not the case in the US. The singular source indicates that this is the modern authority on the matter, which is not the case either. I have no problem with the piece staying if it has counter arguments presented, but alone it is not suitable for Wikipedia. I will delete the section again if no additional material is found. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 16:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I was a bit shocked to discover that this page had asserted in its lead for almost two years that the destruction of the press was by an unauthorised mob, against the wishes of Smith and the City Council; despite our sources (including LDS ones, and ones in Smith's own words) saying clearly that he ordered the press to be destroyed and that this was carried out by the town marshal. Please watch out for inaccurate and unsourced information! TSP ( talk) 23:15, 21 September 2023 (UTC)