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Secondary metabolite and natural product are merely synonyms that are used interchangeably. It might also be a good idea to clean up this article and to remove most of the lead compounds. Cacycle 14:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
"Secondary metabolite" and "natural product" are hardly interchangeable, and no one who wishes to speak precisely uses them so. "Natural product" barely has any specific meaning at all (since absolutely anything, in one sense or another, can be regarded as a "natural product") while "secondary metabolite" is used in a fairly precise manner -- as, for instance, in the definition in the main article. The very fact that the term "secondary" is employed is enough to suggest a specific meaning (i.e., apart from "primary"), and "metabolite" is far more specific than "product". The term "secondary metabolite" has widespread, well-understood import within the scientific community, particularly within biology and its subset, ecology, and wary individuals should not allow its use, or their understanding of the term, to be diluted by those in the quack medicine or "natural products" industry. -- djx, May 2007
I also oppose a merge because not all natural products are secondary metabolites. However I see no reason to move all the secondary metabolites out because many secondary metabolites ARE natural products. KSVaughan2 21:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In organic synthesis, natural product means something like "interesting molecule discovered in a plant/bug/fish and that we want to try to synthesize". I believe these are generally secondary metabolites, but maybe there are some exceptions. -- Itub 11:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
-I like this statement: it's about as concise as it gets for synthetic organic chemists. Of course, not everyone is a synthetic organic chemist. If you're going to have an entry entitled "natural products", then you should state right at the outset that your article is designed to explain what this term typically means in a specific context, and define that context. The phrase "secondary metabolite" also deserves some discussion, but again you have to define your context. It boils down to writing a better Wikipedia entry than the one that exists, bearing in mind that one of the purposes of any encyclopedia should be to educate the non-specialist, as well as informing the more expert, and see how it flies...but, please, let's have no arrogant statements from people who "work in the field". Xprofj ( talk) 23:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Also bear in mind that secondary meatabolites are/were usually so-called because of a lack of an obvious requirement for the producing organisms survival. This makes the term 'secondary' rather subjective, particularly when considering differing environmental conditions where the metabolite in question might well be essential for survival. MDG38 11:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The article is a little inappropriate because "natural product" could mean many things other than therapeutic chemicals. Part of this article could be merged with Drug discovery, since compounds from plants and such, especially ones used in traditional medicine systems, are a major source of mainstream medications.
"Natural" is a near-meaningless term, "product" could mean many other things, so this article has little justification for existence under this name.
It's mostly a question of what to do with the contents of an article that is so poorly related to its title. SDY ( talk) 17:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry if im not putting this in the right place, im new...anyhow,seeing as the animal section basicly describes venom extracted from animals, shouldn't it just be merged with the venom section? either as "venom" or "animals and venom".... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.154.208 ( talk) 05:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think the list of natural product drugs is misleading. Many (perhaps even most) of those listed are not natural products. And important natural product drugs are missing. For example, the natural drug morphine is not listed, but the synthetic analog methylnaltrexone is. Some drugs are truly natural, some are semi-synthetic (produced synthetically from a natural chemical compound), and some are merely "inspired" by natural compounds. I think the list should focus more narrowly only on drugs that are truly natural products - otherwise this list will either be too long, or incomplete (as it is now). -- Ed ( Edgar181) 20:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Should this article be successfully removed or merged, I would—upon coming to Wikipedia from the outside, as a practicing scientific professional, and a content expert—immediately seek to have a new "natural products" article stubbed in. Bottom line, natural products chemistry is a distinct area of chemical research, critically important in the history of chemistry, the sourcing of ideas and substances in drug discovery, the understanding of traditional medicines and ethnopharmacology, the evolution of technology associated with chemical separations, the development of modern methods in solution structure determination by NMR, the teasing out of pharmacologically useful areas of physicochemical property space, and in the development of synthetic organic methodology (where the Mount Everest's of natural products total synthesis provide the context for new reaction discovery, see David A. Evans article). (Etc.) These are distinct foci from discussions that usually surround secondary metabolites and their context in metabolism, semiochemistry / chemical ecology, etc. Improve each article and subject area, yes. But keep them distinct, for operationally, and in the details and many nuances, they simply are. Apples and oranges folks, if you do this for a living. If you do not believe, someone email KC Nicolaou and suggest to him that the article be removed. Cheers. LeProf.
...start with offering questions and discussion here. Note, I tried to at least leave the ideas that were present earlier, if not the actual prose. The greatest issue with the earlier lead was that it was incomplete. Please question/comment here. Cheers. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.179.92.36 ( talk) 03:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
The link to the following reference, which is cited repeatedly (37 times!), is broken:
^G Brahmachari et Al., Natural Products in Drug Discovery: Impacts and Opportunities—An Assessment., 2010 http://www.worldscibooks.com/etextbook/8033/8033_chap01.pdf
Real problem, folks, relying so much on (a) a weak source, (b) an etextbook. PLEASE RESOLVE. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.179.92.36 ( talk) 05:28, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
This article needs additional citations for
verification. (January 2009) |
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2011) |
A natural product is a chemical compound or substance produced by a living organism – found in nature that usually has a pharmacological or biological activity for use in pharmaceutical drug discovery and drug design. A natural product can be considered as such even if it can be prepared by total synthesis.
These small molecules provide the source or inspiration for the majority of FDA-approved agents and continue to be one of the major sources of inspiration for drug discovery. In particular, these compounds are important in the treatment of life-threatening conditions. [2]
[ LEPROF ]
HERE BELOW IS THE NEW LEAD THAT I CONTRIBUTED LAST NIGHT. THE LEAD REWRITE WAS DONE SIMPLY TO CREATE AN OPENING WHICH IS WORTHY OF A GOOD ARTICLE ON NATURAL PRODUCTS.
CONTRARY TO THE TWO EDITORS WHO DID THE REVERSION AND SUBSEQUENT PATCH-UP:
ALL OF THESE REASONS FOR ACTING ARE RED HERRINGS.
AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THIS STATUS-QUO-MUST-REMAIN REVERSION, I HAVE TO REMOVE LINKS TO THIS ARTICLE, FROM ANOTHER BIO ARTICLE I AM WRITING. THIS LEAD SIMPLY DOES NOT DO JUSTICE TO THE SUBJECT.
FINALLY, THESE TWO EDITORS APPEAR NEVER TO HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED SUBSTANTIALLY AT THIS ARTICLE, AT LEAST NOT IN RECENT TIMES. IN ENTERING AND REVERTING THIS NEW LEAD, THE HAVE IGNORED THE LONGSTANDING PROBLEMS DISCUSSED IN THE ARTICLE TALK SECTION, AND HAVE IGNORED THE NEED HERE FOR QUALITY EDITS.
THEY SEEM TO ARRIVE HERE ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE ON A MISSION TO POLICE MY EDITING, I.E. THEY ARE STALKING. I WILL RAISE THIS MATTER HOWEVER I CAN, SO I CAN GET BACK TO EDITING AND CONTRIBUTING CONTENT. LEPROF.
LEAD THAT WAS REVERTED:
A natural product is an organic or organometallic chemical compound generated by a biosynthetic pathway of a living organism and isolated and purified using chemical purification techniques; alternatively it is an synthetic (artificial) product synthesized and shown to have precisely matching physical, spectroscopic, and chemical properties to such a purified natural substance. Natural products may be produced by pathways of either primary or secondary metabolism; early efforts in natural products synthesis targeted complex substances as cobalamin (vitamin B12, at right), an essential cofactor in all of metabolism.
Natural products play essential or important roles in their organisms of origin, for instance as as biosynthetic intermediates and cofactors, agents of coloration and fragrance, and internal and external chemical signals (i.e., semiochemicals). Given their bioactivities, they find significant human societal uses as chemical tools/probes in the modern molecular biosciences, and serve as source or inspiration for starting materials and ideas in drug discovery, giving rise to the majority of FDA-approved small molecule chemical agents, including toward life-threatening conditions. The use of taxol derivatives in oncology treatment is one example see below right).
Natural products chemistry is a distinct area of chemical research, critically important in the history of chemistry, the sourcing of substances in early preclinical drug discovery research, the understanding of traditional medicine and ethnopharmacology, the evolution of technology associated with chemical separations, the development of modern methods in solution chemical structure determination by NMR and other techniques, and in teasing out of pharmacologically useful areas of physicochemical property space.
In addition, natural products are prepared by organic synthesis, and have played an extraordinarily central role to the development of the field of organic chemistry by providing tremendously challenging targets and problems for synthetic strategy and tactics. In this regard, natural products play a central role in the training of new synthetic organic chemists, and are a principle motivation in the development of new variants of old chemical reactions (e.g., the Evans aldol reaction), as well as the discovery of completely new chemical reactions (e.g., the Woodward cis-hydroxylation, Sharpless epoxidation, and Suzuki–Miyaura cross-coupling reactions).
The term natural product has also been extended for commercial purposes to refer to dietary supplements and related products, and indeed to particular foods, [3] a lexicographic use that will not be the covered directly in this article.
There is a clear error of substance in the lead that now gives this article a component of nonsense in its course/direction.
It follows from Boghog applying a supplemental web-based definition I provided him and others in order to make the case that "natural product" means more than secondary metabolite; the web definition appears to then have been used more broadly, without giving it due thought in the context of the literature.
Having followed the work of, and having visited twice and spoken at the NIH unit that Boghog cites as defining "natural products [in the broadest sense to] include any substance produced by life", I would argue strongly that it was never their intention in presenting their brief content on natural products to create an authoritative, literature-based, and broadly applicable definition of this term. Rather, it was to define what aspects of the term that they—as a unit of the federal research establishment, and the key unit supporting translational research—would be working to support through their programmatic and staff efforts. There is a real difference, for those willing to take time to consider.
What looks most foolish in Boghog's representation, through the quotation appearing in footnote 2, is that probiotics are natural products. Probiotics are microorganisms.
I do not know anyone working in the field of natural products—their isolation, structure determination, assays of bioactivities, study of in vivo and semiochemical roles, etc.—none who would recognize the "extension" promoted through this lead sentence, of the title term. Boghog was too quick to deveop this content, and seemingly gave it far too shallow thought, instead relying on his instincts to get a patch-up job done quickly. (Note beginning to end timestamps of revisions, and clear lack of use of a sandbox.)
Finally, note, 9 of 11 citations appearing in this recent, rapidly revised lead do not appear in the main body of the text, contrary to WP:CREATELEAD (where it states "there should not be any references in the lead which have not first been used in the body"). On the other hand, in other ways, WP:LEADCITE was ignored, where it states "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus ... presence of citations in [this lead] introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article." (The rush to add citations to this lead was to undercount a competing lead that I had created, far different from, but earlier than his, that did not have citations, instead, relying on citations to follow in the main body.)
I will not respond to any reply from Boghog. This is for the community reading this page to consider and respond to. Bluntly put, probiotics are not natural products, despite their appearance on the NCCAM site, and in this rushed redefinition (seemingly, in order for this editor to establish his primacy at an article he had never before visited). The definition is not a reflection of the consensus of the natural products literature, but only of Boghog's rapid, near top of the head effort, and so it is deeply flawed as it stands. Leprof 7272 ( talk) 03:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
When the recent edit battle began over this section, the lead in place was as it appears above, in section "The lead that was in place...". (Wherever the the term lead is used, the more proper term lede is recognized, but omitted for simplicity.)
This I replaced with a lead that was polite and respectful, in trying to keep as much of the earlier lead ideas, but also far more comprehensive, and far more tied to the actual literature of natural products as it appears in the chemical and biosciences literatures. Even so, the lead I offered was quite different than the one that appears above. Note, I was the first person since April to attempt extensive work here to improve the article (one minor edit, in November). The alternative lead I produced can be seen above in section "Conflict with two editors...".
This alternative lead was reverted by I am One of Many, believing it might be spam or plagiarism. While he and I were discussing, making clear it was not spam, and not plagiarism, Boghog entered the discussion, pointing out that the original lead that was in place had been expanded, and that it was now good enough, so there was no need to introduce my lead, which lacked references. You see, while I am One of Many and I were discussing the reversion issue, Boghog had rushed and introduced a number of sentences and citations into the old lead, to make it more acceptable and substantial. I call this reprehensible conduct, especially given that Boghog had never edited at this article before, and had followed me here after we had heated discussions at the Steroid article. I believe he thinks I need to be taught lessons in proper Wikipedia editing, and in humility (despite the ways in which WP:HAR and Wikipedia:RESPECT might be implied to himself).
I am writing this further entry to point out two plagiarisms, one historic, one continuing, which Bohog contributed to, by supporting reversion of my completely re-written lead, and by not re-examining the clearly deeply flawed original lead text that he supported and edited (which, it turns out, was plagiarized). We faculty members with recent experience teaching are good for a little something, it seems.
I will not comment further, because the plagiarism, past and continuing is self-evident. I hope the community wakes up to such practices and editors, and begins to learn some lessons here (including those with no expertise in this area, that revert on the basis of computational cues suggesting vandalism). Had I am One of Many not begun this battle with his reversion, none of this mess would have ensued.
______________
Plagiarism source:
Original plagiarism in the "The lead that was in place..." (earlier):
Components in the lead in the current article from the plagiarized source, as of the time-stamp at my signature below:
Opening sentence of the alternative lead that I created, that was reverted, beginning the Conflict with two editors...
Leprof 7272 (
talk)
05:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Nat´u`ral prod´cut n.1.(Chem., Biochem.) A chemical substance produced by a living organism; - a term used commonly in reference to chemical substances found in nature that have distinctive pharmacological effects. Such a substance is considered a natural product even if it can be prepared by total synthesis.
— Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co
The proposal that a part of a quotation be used—that its last part be deleted—because it no longer supports the text argument for a particular definition is to propose an approach to scholarship that is simply dishonest. If the citation chosen does not fully support the argument of the text—allowing for stylistic redactions where full meaning is consistent with full meaning—there is a reason, and the reason must be weighed, and acted upon.
In this case, the definition from the NCCAM web citation used in the article, until moments ago, was—as I have already noted above—never intended as an authoritative, literature-based, and broadly applicable definition of natural products. Rather, it appears only at a website of a service-oriented unit of the US Government's National Institutes of Health dedicated to promoting and supporting translational research (which includes probiotics, and many other things that fall outside the scope of the title of this article). How they define the scope of their programmatic and staff support for external research efforts is immaterial to a good, literature-derived definition of the title term, natural product.
This clear editor mis-step is a part of a broader pattern of composing text off top of head, and then adding sources later, that is carried out often by some editors/contributors here at Wikipedia. This, rather than faithfully considering the whole of the scholarly literature on a subject (which, of course takes more time), then seeking to reflect it in the articles, then adding selectively from the total array of considered references, those appropriate to summarize that consensus of scholarly opinion. If you will forgive me for borrowing terms from another discipline that nevertheless apply: the former is what is termed eisegesis or prooftexting, as opposed to exegesis and simple good, representative scholarship.
I note, as of this timestamp, that editor Boghog has already deleted the part of the reference 2 quote with which he now appreciates he disagrees (my having called attention), that natural products include the microorganisms in probiotics. But editor Boghog leaves in the rest of the quote, in support of his lead text. Per the above, I declare this an improper reference and use of reference, for its selectively misleading use and so misrepresentation of the definition this source actually provides. The easy way out. Disingenuous, at least. I will place the appropriate tag. Leprof 7272 ( talk) 06:38, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Here are three definitions of natural products each supported by a reliable source:
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)Products of natural origins can be called “natural products”. Natural products include:
Natural products are organic compounds that are formed by living systems.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Natural products are primary and secondary metabolites. ... However in most cases a natural product refers to secondary metabolites.
Consistent with the above sources, the current lead makes it clear that are a range of definitions for natural products from anything produced by life (and for that matter whole organisms) to secondary metabolites. Boghog ( talk) 17:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
A failed verification tag is added, when, per WP:
Perhaps the most important element of a non-biographic lead in the sciences is the definition of the title term.
This failed verification tag is placed because the principle quote being used to support the definition given in the opening two sentences of the lead (a) is not consistent with the full quote from this source, (b) is vague and therefore somewhat misleading relative to various actual definitions and examples that appear throughout the literature, and so (c) does not coincide in a number of respects with the definitions of the subject most widely used by practitioners involved in the study of natural products, in any number of fields.
In particular, I note that the quote being used in support of the definition is a web-based source, from a government agency whose broad aim is to support a wide variety of types of translational research, and that in stating which areas they wish to support they are making no claim to be providing an encyclopedic definition of the title subject. In fact, in describing natural products in the full quote from this source, it provides a description so overly broad—it makes reference to microbe preparations as natural products—that the editor choosing the quote at first included, then redacted that part of the quote as not supporting his definition/thesis.
I would also note that, per the WP, the citation does contain information of value (when the aim of the site is properly acknowledged); however, in the editor's parsing the citation's quoted definition into what he would and would not include, and in doing so without further sources, the editor is introducing original research (his own perspective) about the true definition of the title term. I do not believe we wish an editor's opinion; I believe we want the opinion of a consensus of literature secondary sources (or at least literature representatives) for the lead of this important article. Without whatever further elements might belong in it, the current result is vague sounding at best (more below).
I would further note that the expression "natural product" appears in more than 1050 reviews, per Pubmed search as of the timestamp of this Talk entry. If 1% of these are sufficiently on point and authoritative, there is ample material to make a website for a governmental support agency unnecessary as a defining source.
As well, I would note that the existence in the literature of a wide variety of expressions to denote non-purified chemical preparations derived from natural sources belies a further erroneous definition element yet contained in the cited and quoted web definition: if the practitioners in the field routinely feel the need to make reference to natural product mixtures, extracts, cocktails, libraries, etc. (and the inverted expressions of all these and related terms), then they are indicating a practical working distinction between a natural product, and natural products appearing in anything less than purified form. The NCCAM does not need to exclude mixtures from its definition, because it is seeking to define what external research endeavours they support (and there is good reason to support work on extracts and mixtures). But to include mixtures, etc. is not to offer an encyclopedic definition with broad applicability and utility; not to get overly philosophical, but the thing itself is not the same as the thing as a component of something larger. This, with the probiotics inclusion, is a second flaw in the decision to use this web source as the sole citation and quote for the central definition of the lead.
Finally, the second sentence of the lead, and its doubtful aspects, interrelate with further weakness in the opening sentence, where the distinction implied between "chemical compound or substance" is unclear—it may be intending one of the two terms to imply a pure chemical, and the other not, but with only one linked to a Wikipedia article (and with these two wikipedia articles vague as to the distinction between compound and substance, vis-a-vis purity), the result of this "A or B" construction is ambiguity. In the same way the reference to their being "produced by a living organism" (as opposed to a non-living organism?) and to their being produced by "a living organism – found in nature" (as opposed to organisms, found where? in laboratory?) confuses mightily, but appears moreover to be completely deattached from the cited web definition. Scroll over the citation number and see. Indeed it should be; per earlier Talk, these definition components, if somewhat distilled, derived from a 100 year old out-of-copyright dictionary, and not the cited web source. Taken together, the first and second sentence neither reflect the fully quoted citation, nor do they provide an accurate and succinct summary of the portion of the quote that actually was allowed to appear.
I therefore request further non-web-based secondary or primary sources to support a good, final definition in the lead, and that this web-source be dispensed with except perhaps as a point of comparison to other literature sources.
While I know this component of the argument cannot be weighed, I am stating the foregoing with confidence as a practitioner whose research has long involved natural products, and as one with good working knowledge (through visits and relationships) to a key group in the organization that has posted the definition that I'm asking be set aside (despite the highest regard for NCCAM in all its functions).
With regard, Leprof 7272 ( talk) 10:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is a citation:
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)that in turn cites
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)that supports a very broad definition of natural product:
I have added the first citation to the lead and took down the failed verification flag. Boghog ( talk) 17:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
As noted previously, the challenged "definition" of natural product given in the quotation of reference [3] appears on a web page in support of the mandate of a federal agency to support particular types of external (university) research. When the scope of that agency's support changes, their "definition" can and will change. (It did not exist at all, until recently.) Hence, the "definition" they supply simply is not a broadly held or a peer-reviewed definition by any means. As such it is not a reliable source to guide a valid, broadly held definition that provides overarching direction to the article.
Moreover, on reading that "definition", editor Boghog decided, after being challenged, that one element of that federal agency's scope—that the term "natural product" includes whole organisms (probiotics)—went further than he thought instinctively proper. He therefore retained the citation, and most of the quotation, just deleting the last offending line of it. To this deletion, I responded with the failed verification tag, because the text no longer accurately reflected the source's complete content on the matter.
Subsequently, editor Boghog has found one monograph (with its basis, in turn, being one earlier monograph), that also extends the "definition" to include organisms. With this self-affirming discovery, he reversed his deletion of the part of the quotation referring to probiotics, and removed the failed verification tag. This search of support for a held-opinion is, in my opinion, prooftexting, and is an unacceptable approach, particularly in deciding the overall content of an article.
Returning the claims that minerals, and probiotics and other whole organisms are natural products to the text simply returns us to a point that was originally ceded as errant, but that is now being reaffirmed on scant scholarly support: Boghog is again inherently representing these components of the "definition" as reflecting a consensus of scientific opinion, when it is based on a very limited scholarly set of citations (one citing one preceding).
As I have stated to Boghog elsewhere, I believe that one can find one or even a small set of citations to support any of a variety of definitions of the title term; this does not make any such definition the preponderance of scientific opinion on the matter. Simply put, what we are being given is what Boghog believes or wishes to be the scope of the term, rather than its actual scope, in the relevant natural product literatures.
Until such time as a change in this tenacious and indeed ruling editor's attitude occurs that allows the matter to become the subject of broader discussion, allowing the hard work of identifying the elements of a scholarly consensus, the fundamental problem with the article remains. Until Boghog allows a community of natural products devotees to comment, directly or indirectly, he has the cart before the horse. And as his wont, he will surely create a tidy, reasonably well-presented article, and make it very hard for others to alter—though in doing so, the thrust will remain his, and not that of the majority of the scholars and practitioners in the field. An article with broad writing before proper definition and outline is no more useful in moving people's understanding forward than a cart is when placed before a horse. Leprof 7272 ( talk) 08:37, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that each article ... fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. There are reliable sources that support a wide definition of natural products while other sources support a narrower definition. Hence it appropriate that both definitions are included in this article. Within the field of organic chemistry, the narrower definition predominates. However the scope of this article is wider than organic chemistry. Likewise the intended audience of this article is wider than "natural products devotees", it also includes the general public. In other words, this article should not function simply as a shrine to the practitioners of natural product chemistry. Rather it should include both majority and significant minority view points that are supported by reliable sources. IMHO, the current lead accomplishes this. Boghog ( talk) 10:52, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
each article ... fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. In the current lead, there is one sentence that is devoted to the broad definition. The remainder of the lead (paragraphs 2, 3, and 4) are devoted to the narrow definition. Hence each definition in the current lead is proportional to its prominence. What may be debatable is that the article starts out with the broad definition. However I would argue that this is appropriate since it follows a logical progression (from broad to narrow) and also is appropriate for the intended audience (the general public). Boghog ( talk) 09:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that this term is used in fields different from the one you have been working in.. Boghog ( talk) 13:29, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Secondary metabolite and natural product are merely synonyms that are used interchangeably. It might also be a good idea to clean up this article and to remove most of the lead compounds. Cacycle 14:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
"Secondary metabolite" and "natural product" are hardly interchangeable, and no one who wishes to speak precisely uses them so. "Natural product" barely has any specific meaning at all (since absolutely anything, in one sense or another, can be regarded as a "natural product") while "secondary metabolite" is used in a fairly precise manner -- as, for instance, in the definition in the main article. The very fact that the term "secondary" is employed is enough to suggest a specific meaning (i.e., apart from "primary"), and "metabolite" is far more specific than "product". The term "secondary metabolite" has widespread, well-understood import within the scientific community, particularly within biology and its subset, ecology, and wary individuals should not allow its use, or their understanding of the term, to be diluted by those in the quack medicine or "natural products" industry. -- djx, May 2007
I also oppose a merge because not all natural products are secondary metabolites. However I see no reason to move all the secondary metabolites out because many secondary metabolites ARE natural products. KSVaughan2 21:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In organic synthesis, natural product means something like "interesting molecule discovered in a plant/bug/fish and that we want to try to synthesize". I believe these are generally secondary metabolites, but maybe there are some exceptions. -- Itub 11:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
-I like this statement: it's about as concise as it gets for synthetic organic chemists. Of course, not everyone is a synthetic organic chemist. If you're going to have an entry entitled "natural products", then you should state right at the outset that your article is designed to explain what this term typically means in a specific context, and define that context. The phrase "secondary metabolite" also deserves some discussion, but again you have to define your context. It boils down to writing a better Wikipedia entry than the one that exists, bearing in mind that one of the purposes of any encyclopedia should be to educate the non-specialist, as well as informing the more expert, and see how it flies...but, please, let's have no arrogant statements from people who "work in the field". Xprofj ( talk) 23:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Also bear in mind that secondary meatabolites are/were usually so-called because of a lack of an obvious requirement for the producing organisms survival. This makes the term 'secondary' rather subjective, particularly when considering differing environmental conditions where the metabolite in question might well be essential for survival. MDG38 11:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The article is a little inappropriate because "natural product" could mean many things other than therapeutic chemicals. Part of this article could be merged with Drug discovery, since compounds from plants and such, especially ones used in traditional medicine systems, are a major source of mainstream medications.
"Natural" is a near-meaningless term, "product" could mean many other things, so this article has little justification for existence under this name.
It's mostly a question of what to do with the contents of an article that is so poorly related to its title. SDY ( talk) 17:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry if im not putting this in the right place, im new...anyhow,seeing as the animal section basicly describes venom extracted from animals, shouldn't it just be merged with the venom section? either as "venom" or "animals and venom".... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.154.208 ( talk) 05:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think the list of natural product drugs is misleading. Many (perhaps even most) of those listed are not natural products. And important natural product drugs are missing. For example, the natural drug morphine is not listed, but the synthetic analog methylnaltrexone is. Some drugs are truly natural, some are semi-synthetic (produced synthetically from a natural chemical compound), and some are merely "inspired" by natural compounds. I think the list should focus more narrowly only on drugs that are truly natural products - otherwise this list will either be too long, or incomplete (as it is now). -- Ed ( Edgar181) 20:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Should this article be successfully removed or merged, I would—upon coming to Wikipedia from the outside, as a practicing scientific professional, and a content expert—immediately seek to have a new "natural products" article stubbed in. Bottom line, natural products chemistry is a distinct area of chemical research, critically important in the history of chemistry, the sourcing of ideas and substances in drug discovery, the understanding of traditional medicines and ethnopharmacology, the evolution of technology associated with chemical separations, the development of modern methods in solution structure determination by NMR, the teasing out of pharmacologically useful areas of physicochemical property space, and in the development of synthetic organic methodology (where the Mount Everest's of natural products total synthesis provide the context for new reaction discovery, see David A. Evans article). (Etc.) These are distinct foci from discussions that usually surround secondary metabolites and their context in metabolism, semiochemistry / chemical ecology, etc. Improve each article and subject area, yes. But keep them distinct, for operationally, and in the details and many nuances, they simply are. Apples and oranges folks, if you do this for a living. If you do not believe, someone email KC Nicolaou and suggest to him that the article be removed. Cheers. LeProf.
...start with offering questions and discussion here. Note, I tried to at least leave the ideas that were present earlier, if not the actual prose. The greatest issue with the earlier lead was that it was incomplete. Please question/comment here. Cheers. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.179.92.36 ( talk) 03:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
The link to the following reference, which is cited repeatedly (37 times!), is broken:
^G Brahmachari et Al., Natural Products in Drug Discovery: Impacts and Opportunities—An Assessment., 2010 http://www.worldscibooks.com/etextbook/8033/8033_chap01.pdf
Real problem, folks, relying so much on (a) a weak source, (b) an etextbook. PLEASE RESOLVE. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.179.92.36 ( talk) 05:28, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
This article needs additional citations for
verification. (January 2009) |
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2011) |
A natural product is a chemical compound or substance produced by a living organism – found in nature that usually has a pharmacological or biological activity for use in pharmaceutical drug discovery and drug design. A natural product can be considered as such even if it can be prepared by total synthesis.
These small molecules provide the source or inspiration for the majority of FDA-approved agents and continue to be one of the major sources of inspiration for drug discovery. In particular, these compounds are important in the treatment of life-threatening conditions. [2]
[ LEPROF ]
HERE BELOW IS THE NEW LEAD THAT I CONTRIBUTED LAST NIGHT. THE LEAD REWRITE WAS DONE SIMPLY TO CREATE AN OPENING WHICH IS WORTHY OF A GOOD ARTICLE ON NATURAL PRODUCTS.
CONTRARY TO THE TWO EDITORS WHO DID THE REVERSION AND SUBSEQUENT PATCH-UP:
ALL OF THESE REASONS FOR ACTING ARE RED HERRINGS.
AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THIS STATUS-QUO-MUST-REMAIN REVERSION, I HAVE TO REMOVE LINKS TO THIS ARTICLE, FROM ANOTHER BIO ARTICLE I AM WRITING. THIS LEAD SIMPLY DOES NOT DO JUSTICE TO THE SUBJECT.
FINALLY, THESE TWO EDITORS APPEAR NEVER TO HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED SUBSTANTIALLY AT THIS ARTICLE, AT LEAST NOT IN RECENT TIMES. IN ENTERING AND REVERTING THIS NEW LEAD, THE HAVE IGNORED THE LONGSTANDING PROBLEMS DISCUSSED IN THE ARTICLE TALK SECTION, AND HAVE IGNORED THE NEED HERE FOR QUALITY EDITS.
THEY SEEM TO ARRIVE HERE ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE ON A MISSION TO POLICE MY EDITING, I.E. THEY ARE STALKING. I WILL RAISE THIS MATTER HOWEVER I CAN, SO I CAN GET BACK TO EDITING AND CONTRIBUTING CONTENT. LEPROF.
LEAD THAT WAS REVERTED:
A natural product is an organic or organometallic chemical compound generated by a biosynthetic pathway of a living organism and isolated and purified using chemical purification techniques; alternatively it is an synthetic (artificial) product synthesized and shown to have precisely matching physical, spectroscopic, and chemical properties to such a purified natural substance. Natural products may be produced by pathways of either primary or secondary metabolism; early efforts in natural products synthesis targeted complex substances as cobalamin (vitamin B12, at right), an essential cofactor in all of metabolism.
Natural products play essential or important roles in their organisms of origin, for instance as as biosynthetic intermediates and cofactors, agents of coloration and fragrance, and internal and external chemical signals (i.e., semiochemicals). Given their bioactivities, they find significant human societal uses as chemical tools/probes in the modern molecular biosciences, and serve as source or inspiration for starting materials and ideas in drug discovery, giving rise to the majority of FDA-approved small molecule chemical agents, including toward life-threatening conditions. The use of taxol derivatives in oncology treatment is one example see below right).
Natural products chemistry is a distinct area of chemical research, critically important in the history of chemistry, the sourcing of substances in early preclinical drug discovery research, the understanding of traditional medicine and ethnopharmacology, the evolution of technology associated with chemical separations, the development of modern methods in solution chemical structure determination by NMR and other techniques, and in teasing out of pharmacologically useful areas of physicochemical property space.
In addition, natural products are prepared by organic synthesis, and have played an extraordinarily central role to the development of the field of organic chemistry by providing tremendously challenging targets and problems for synthetic strategy and tactics. In this regard, natural products play a central role in the training of new synthetic organic chemists, and are a principle motivation in the development of new variants of old chemical reactions (e.g., the Evans aldol reaction), as well as the discovery of completely new chemical reactions (e.g., the Woodward cis-hydroxylation, Sharpless epoxidation, and Suzuki–Miyaura cross-coupling reactions).
The term natural product has also been extended for commercial purposes to refer to dietary supplements and related products, and indeed to particular foods, [3] a lexicographic use that will not be the covered directly in this article.
There is a clear error of substance in the lead that now gives this article a component of nonsense in its course/direction.
It follows from Boghog applying a supplemental web-based definition I provided him and others in order to make the case that "natural product" means more than secondary metabolite; the web definition appears to then have been used more broadly, without giving it due thought in the context of the literature.
Having followed the work of, and having visited twice and spoken at the NIH unit that Boghog cites as defining "natural products [in the broadest sense to] include any substance produced by life", I would argue strongly that it was never their intention in presenting their brief content on natural products to create an authoritative, literature-based, and broadly applicable definition of this term. Rather, it was to define what aspects of the term that they—as a unit of the federal research establishment, and the key unit supporting translational research—would be working to support through their programmatic and staff efforts. There is a real difference, for those willing to take time to consider.
What looks most foolish in Boghog's representation, through the quotation appearing in footnote 2, is that probiotics are natural products. Probiotics are microorganisms.
I do not know anyone working in the field of natural products—their isolation, structure determination, assays of bioactivities, study of in vivo and semiochemical roles, etc.—none who would recognize the "extension" promoted through this lead sentence, of the title term. Boghog was too quick to deveop this content, and seemingly gave it far too shallow thought, instead relying on his instincts to get a patch-up job done quickly. (Note beginning to end timestamps of revisions, and clear lack of use of a sandbox.)
Finally, note, 9 of 11 citations appearing in this recent, rapidly revised lead do not appear in the main body of the text, contrary to WP:CREATELEAD (where it states "there should not be any references in the lead which have not first been used in the body"). On the other hand, in other ways, WP:LEADCITE was ignored, where it states "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus ... presence of citations in [this lead] introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article." (The rush to add citations to this lead was to undercount a competing lead that I had created, far different from, but earlier than his, that did not have citations, instead, relying on citations to follow in the main body.)
I will not respond to any reply from Boghog. This is for the community reading this page to consider and respond to. Bluntly put, probiotics are not natural products, despite their appearance on the NCCAM site, and in this rushed redefinition (seemingly, in order for this editor to establish his primacy at an article he had never before visited). The definition is not a reflection of the consensus of the natural products literature, but only of Boghog's rapid, near top of the head effort, and so it is deeply flawed as it stands. Leprof 7272 ( talk) 03:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
When the recent edit battle began over this section, the lead in place was as it appears above, in section "The lead that was in place...". (Wherever the the term lead is used, the more proper term lede is recognized, but omitted for simplicity.)
This I replaced with a lead that was polite and respectful, in trying to keep as much of the earlier lead ideas, but also far more comprehensive, and far more tied to the actual literature of natural products as it appears in the chemical and biosciences literatures. Even so, the lead I offered was quite different than the one that appears above. Note, I was the first person since April to attempt extensive work here to improve the article (one minor edit, in November). The alternative lead I produced can be seen above in section "Conflict with two editors...".
This alternative lead was reverted by I am One of Many, believing it might be spam or plagiarism. While he and I were discussing, making clear it was not spam, and not plagiarism, Boghog entered the discussion, pointing out that the original lead that was in place had been expanded, and that it was now good enough, so there was no need to introduce my lead, which lacked references. You see, while I am One of Many and I were discussing the reversion issue, Boghog had rushed and introduced a number of sentences and citations into the old lead, to make it more acceptable and substantial. I call this reprehensible conduct, especially given that Boghog had never edited at this article before, and had followed me here after we had heated discussions at the Steroid article. I believe he thinks I need to be taught lessons in proper Wikipedia editing, and in humility (despite the ways in which WP:HAR and Wikipedia:RESPECT might be implied to himself).
I am writing this further entry to point out two plagiarisms, one historic, one continuing, which Bohog contributed to, by supporting reversion of my completely re-written lead, and by not re-examining the clearly deeply flawed original lead text that he supported and edited (which, it turns out, was plagiarized). We faculty members with recent experience teaching are good for a little something, it seems.
I will not comment further, because the plagiarism, past and continuing is self-evident. I hope the community wakes up to such practices and editors, and begins to learn some lessons here (including those with no expertise in this area, that revert on the basis of computational cues suggesting vandalism). Had I am One of Many not begun this battle with his reversion, none of this mess would have ensued.
______________
Plagiarism source:
Original plagiarism in the "The lead that was in place..." (earlier):
Components in the lead in the current article from the plagiarized source, as of the time-stamp at my signature below:
Opening sentence of the alternative lead that I created, that was reverted, beginning the Conflict with two editors...
Leprof 7272 (
talk)
05:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Nat´u`ral prod´cut n.1.(Chem., Biochem.) A chemical substance produced by a living organism; - a term used commonly in reference to chemical substances found in nature that have distinctive pharmacological effects. Such a substance is considered a natural product even if it can be prepared by total synthesis.
— Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co
The proposal that a part of a quotation be used—that its last part be deleted—because it no longer supports the text argument for a particular definition is to propose an approach to scholarship that is simply dishonest. If the citation chosen does not fully support the argument of the text—allowing for stylistic redactions where full meaning is consistent with full meaning—there is a reason, and the reason must be weighed, and acted upon.
In this case, the definition from the NCCAM web citation used in the article, until moments ago, was—as I have already noted above—never intended as an authoritative, literature-based, and broadly applicable definition of natural products. Rather, it appears only at a website of a service-oriented unit of the US Government's National Institutes of Health dedicated to promoting and supporting translational research (which includes probiotics, and many other things that fall outside the scope of the title of this article). How they define the scope of their programmatic and staff support for external research efforts is immaterial to a good, literature-derived definition of the title term, natural product.
This clear editor mis-step is a part of a broader pattern of composing text off top of head, and then adding sources later, that is carried out often by some editors/contributors here at Wikipedia. This, rather than faithfully considering the whole of the scholarly literature on a subject (which, of course takes more time), then seeking to reflect it in the articles, then adding selectively from the total array of considered references, those appropriate to summarize that consensus of scholarly opinion. If you will forgive me for borrowing terms from another discipline that nevertheless apply: the former is what is termed eisegesis or prooftexting, as opposed to exegesis and simple good, representative scholarship.
I note, as of this timestamp, that editor Boghog has already deleted the part of the reference 2 quote with which he now appreciates he disagrees (my having called attention), that natural products include the microorganisms in probiotics. But editor Boghog leaves in the rest of the quote, in support of his lead text. Per the above, I declare this an improper reference and use of reference, for its selectively misleading use and so misrepresentation of the definition this source actually provides. The easy way out. Disingenuous, at least. I will place the appropriate tag. Leprof 7272 ( talk) 06:38, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Here are three definitions of natural products each supported by a reliable source:
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)Products of natural origins can be called “natural products”. Natural products include:
Natural products are organic compounds that are formed by living systems.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Natural products are primary and secondary metabolites. ... However in most cases a natural product refers to secondary metabolites.
Consistent with the above sources, the current lead makes it clear that are a range of definitions for natural products from anything produced by life (and for that matter whole organisms) to secondary metabolites. Boghog ( talk) 17:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
A failed verification tag is added, when, per WP:
Perhaps the most important element of a non-biographic lead in the sciences is the definition of the title term.
This failed verification tag is placed because the principle quote being used to support the definition given in the opening two sentences of the lead (a) is not consistent with the full quote from this source, (b) is vague and therefore somewhat misleading relative to various actual definitions and examples that appear throughout the literature, and so (c) does not coincide in a number of respects with the definitions of the subject most widely used by practitioners involved in the study of natural products, in any number of fields.
In particular, I note that the quote being used in support of the definition is a web-based source, from a government agency whose broad aim is to support a wide variety of types of translational research, and that in stating which areas they wish to support they are making no claim to be providing an encyclopedic definition of the title subject. In fact, in describing natural products in the full quote from this source, it provides a description so overly broad—it makes reference to microbe preparations as natural products—that the editor choosing the quote at first included, then redacted that part of the quote as not supporting his definition/thesis.
I would also note that, per the WP, the citation does contain information of value (when the aim of the site is properly acknowledged); however, in the editor's parsing the citation's quoted definition into what he would and would not include, and in doing so without further sources, the editor is introducing original research (his own perspective) about the true definition of the title term. I do not believe we wish an editor's opinion; I believe we want the opinion of a consensus of literature secondary sources (or at least literature representatives) for the lead of this important article. Without whatever further elements might belong in it, the current result is vague sounding at best (more below).
I would further note that the expression "natural product" appears in more than 1050 reviews, per Pubmed search as of the timestamp of this Talk entry. If 1% of these are sufficiently on point and authoritative, there is ample material to make a website for a governmental support agency unnecessary as a defining source.
As well, I would note that the existence in the literature of a wide variety of expressions to denote non-purified chemical preparations derived from natural sources belies a further erroneous definition element yet contained in the cited and quoted web definition: if the practitioners in the field routinely feel the need to make reference to natural product mixtures, extracts, cocktails, libraries, etc. (and the inverted expressions of all these and related terms), then they are indicating a practical working distinction between a natural product, and natural products appearing in anything less than purified form. The NCCAM does not need to exclude mixtures from its definition, because it is seeking to define what external research endeavours they support (and there is good reason to support work on extracts and mixtures). But to include mixtures, etc. is not to offer an encyclopedic definition with broad applicability and utility; not to get overly philosophical, but the thing itself is not the same as the thing as a component of something larger. This, with the probiotics inclusion, is a second flaw in the decision to use this web source as the sole citation and quote for the central definition of the lead.
Finally, the second sentence of the lead, and its doubtful aspects, interrelate with further weakness in the opening sentence, where the distinction implied between "chemical compound or substance" is unclear—it may be intending one of the two terms to imply a pure chemical, and the other not, but with only one linked to a Wikipedia article (and with these two wikipedia articles vague as to the distinction between compound and substance, vis-a-vis purity), the result of this "A or B" construction is ambiguity. In the same way the reference to their being "produced by a living organism" (as opposed to a non-living organism?) and to their being produced by "a living organism – found in nature" (as opposed to organisms, found where? in laboratory?) confuses mightily, but appears moreover to be completely deattached from the cited web definition. Scroll over the citation number and see. Indeed it should be; per earlier Talk, these definition components, if somewhat distilled, derived from a 100 year old out-of-copyright dictionary, and not the cited web source. Taken together, the first and second sentence neither reflect the fully quoted citation, nor do they provide an accurate and succinct summary of the portion of the quote that actually was allowed to appear.
I therefore request further non-web-based secondary or primary sources to support a good, final definition in the lead, and that this web-source be dispensed with except perhaps as a point of comparison to other literature sources.
While I know this component of the argument cannot be weighed, I am stating the foregoing with confidence as a practitioner whose research has long involved natural products, and as one with good working knowledge (through visits and relationships) to a key group in the organization that has posted the definition that I'm asking be set aside (despite the highest regard for NCCAM in all its functions).
With regard, Leprof 7272 ( talk) 10:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is a citation:
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)that in turn cites
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)that supports a very broad definition of natural product:
I have added the first citation to the lead and took down the failed verification flag. Boghog ( talk) 17:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
As noted previously, the challenged "definition" of natural product given in the quotation of reference [3] appears on a web page in support of the mandate of a federal agency to support particular types of external (university) research. When the scope of that agency's support changes, their "definition" can and will change. (It did not exist at all, until recently.) Hence, the "definition" they supply simply is not a broadly held or a peer-reviewed definition by any means. As such it is not a reliable source to guide a valid, broadly held definition that provides overarching direction to the article.
Moreover, on reading that "definition", editor Boghog decided, after being challenged, that one element of that federal agency's scope—that the term "natural product" includes whole organisms (probiotics)—went further than he thought instinctively proper. He therefore retained the citation, and most of the quotation, just deleting the last offending line of it. To this deletion, I responded with the failed verification tag, because the text no longer accurately reflected the source's complete content on the matter.
Subsequently, editor Boghog has found one monograph (with its basis, in turn, being one earlier monograph), that also extends the "definition" to include organisms. With this self-affirming discovery, he reversed his deletion of the part of the quotation referring to probiotics, and removed the failed verification tag. This search of support for a held-opinion is, in my opinion, prooftexting, and is an unacceptable approach, particularly in deciding the overall content of an article.
Returning the claims that minerals, and probiotics and other whole organisms are natural products to the text simply returns us to a point that was originally ceded as errant, but that is now being reaffirmed on scant scholarly support: Boghog is again inherently representing these components of the "definition" as reflecting a consensus of scientific opinion, when it is based on a very limited scholarly set of citations (one citing one preceding).
As I have stated to Boghog elsewhere, I believe that one can find one or even a small set of citations to support any of a variety of definitions of the title term; this does not make any such definition the preponderance of scientific opinion on the matter. Simply put, what we are being given is what Boghog believes or wishes to be the scope of the term, rather than its actual scope, in the relevant natural product literatures.
Until such time as a change in this tenacious and indeed ruling editor's attitude occurs that allows the matter to become the subject of broader discussion, allowing the hard work of identifying the elements of a scholarly consensus, the fundamental problem with the article remains. Until Boghog allows a community of natural products devotees to comment, directly or indirectly, he has the cart before the horse. And as his wont, he will surely create a tidy, reasonably well-presented article, and make it very hard for others to alter—though in doing so, the thrust will remain his, and not that of the majority of the scholars and practitioners in the field. An article with broad writing before proper definition and outline is no more useful in moving people's understanding forward than a cart is when placed before a horse. Leprof 7272 ( talk) 08:37, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that each article ... fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. There are reliable sources that support a wide definition of natural products while other sources support a narrower definition. Hence it appropriate that both definitions are included in this article. Within the field of organic chemistry, the narrower definition predominates. However the scope of this article is wider than organic chemistry. Likewise the intended audience of this article is wider than "natural products devotees", it also includes the general public. In other words, this article should not function simply as a shrine to the practitioners of natural product chemistry. Rather it should include both majority and significant minority view points that are supported by reliable sources. IMHO, the current lead accomplishes this. Boghog ( talk) 10:52, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
each article ... fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. In the current lead, there is one sentence that is devoted to the broad definition. The remainder of the lead (paragraphs 2, 3, and 4) are devoted to the narrow definition. Hence each definition in the current lead is proportional to its prominence. What may be debatable is that the article starts out with the broad definition. However I would argue that this is appropriate since it follows a logical progression (from broad to narrow) and also is appropriate for the intended audience (the general public). Boghog ( talk) 09:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that this term is used in fields different from the one you have been working in.. Boghog ( talk) 13:29, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
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