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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 27 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NativeBear4 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: JThomasAnthropologist, Nidaannes. This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NJHaley1776 ( article contribs).
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Talk:Modern social statistics of Native Americans Melchoir ( talk) 01:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This page is also under significant construction as a subset of the page listed above. It will also undergo significant changes to provide well documented information about Native American health, which plays a notable role in health services, the history of biological warfare, and more. Please allow some patience to bring the page up to par, and suggestions are appreciated :) Smgaynor ( talk) 02:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I had a question about these two pages. It seems like there is a bit of an overlap when it comes to Native American health, as diseases such as diabetes and alcoholism are contemporary and prevalent issues. Should we clean up the two articles? Combine them? Let me know what you guys think!
Jjgotshwifty ( talk) 08:26, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
The article is entitled "Native American disease and epidemics" and yet there is nothing about any native diseases or epidemics. There are, however, plenty of references to European diseases and epidemics brought to the new world. I think this needs to be re-titled, and the article's incorrect slant needs re-work. Proof of this is shown in part by the first section's statement of "Native Americans have been affected by disease and health concerns throughout their history...". This is left standing without any proof whatsoever. I don't know about other readers, but I come to the article for facts, not speculation. - KitchM ( talk) 05:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
References
I've reverted this bold edit for reasons best described at WP:BRD. There are a number of issues with that problematic edit, including (but not limited to):
Your edit summary warned me: "This is a direct misrepresentation of the cited sources." Um yeah, we don't allow that. And your deletion of sourced content while you cite an essay saying you "don't like it" doesn't work here. You'll need more substantive reasoning than that. Xenophrenic ( talk) 23:36, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Could you explain how exactly my way of noting it differed..., so I explained to you that your way places unwarranted attribution on what should be an assertion of fact in Wikipedia's voice. Please let me know if you wish to revisit that. You also asked,
Can you explain to me how it is somehow not POV to change "may have" to "likely did", and I explained to you that "may have" is just one quote from one sentence from one cited source. If taken in isolation as the only source (or indeed, the only thing said in that Fenn source) on that assertion, then you might have a valid concern, but that isn't the case. While Fenn diplomatically said biological warfare "may have occurred more frequently than scholars have previously acknowledged" in her opening summary, you are forgetting that (1) Kelton then elevated the likelihood beyond "may have", noting the "persuasive scholarly support" in the evidence that bio-warfare was actually more widespread, and (2) Mann then updated the "may have occurred" to "did occur" at least three more times, as noted by Johansen (see "the deliberate dissemination of disease, in these four cases"), and (3) and Fenn herself concluded, after noting the evidence, that it not only "may have" occurred more often, it actually had "an established, if irregular, place in late-eighteenth-century warfare". And Wheelis, who is cited by Fenn, Kelton and Mann (you really need to pay attention to the footnotes), notes that "it most likely occurred more frequently than is reported in surviving accounts." Based on the aggregate of cited reliable sources, not just the Fenn source, the "may have" wording is not accurate. You also asked about my
reasons for deleting the sourced quote, which was already asked and answered (see my first comment in this thread, third bullet-point), and I further prompted you to pay closer attention to the footnote appended in support of the text you quoted. And lastly, there is one question of yours (asked twice) to which I have intentionally not yet responded (your request that I do you the favor of providing you with a "
direct quote" about the "reducing the stigma" content), because you haven't indicated that you have even bothered to review the sources on that.
There certainly is a real problem here in that there is only evidence of smallpox-infected blankets ever being given to Indians once. Claims that it must have happened many times and the evidence must have been destroyed are 100% speculation because by definition there is no evidence. To make any claim about anything there must be some evidence, but here there is none at all. One might as well equally claim, say, that Aliens did it but wiped people's memories using mnemonic ray-guns. Logically a rewrite is I order |I believe. Cassandra. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.210.219.246 (
talk)
13:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
In light of the fact that it wasn't until the mid 1800s before germ theory was widely accepted, how can it be possible that Biological warfare was intentionally used during the Siege of Fort Pitt in 1763? The accepted theory at the time would not have seen blankets as a disease carrier. This definitely looks like revisionist history to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.208.30 ( talk) 18:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
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The article currently states, "There is persuasive scholarly support that such incidents likely have occurred more frequently than scholars have acknowledged". Is it just me or is this contradictory? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 23:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
I've spent some considerable time investigating and trying to find such 'persuasive scholarly evidence' but can't find any. The Fort Pitt incident is certainly real - but anything else is in the realm of legend and myth, unless some evidence actually turns up. My suspicion is that modern writers just can't grasp how contagious smallpox was quite naturally, and therefore simply assume some evil persons must have been responsible. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.174.141 ( talk) 17:20, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
One key source of unfounded claims of genocide by smallpox has been the discredited writer Ward Churchill:
The "preponderance of evidence" standard of proof strongly indicates that Churchill fabricated events that never occurred—namely the U.S. Army's alleged distribution of smallpox infested blankets to the Mandan Indians in 1837. The analysis additionally reveals that Churchill falsified sources to support his fabricated version of events, and also concealed evidence in his cited sources ...
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/plag/5240451.0001.009/--did-the-us-army-distribute-smallpox-blankets-to-indians?rgn=main;view=fulltext — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.32.173 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
I propose that sections Native American disease and epidemics#Contemporary diseases and Native American disease and epidemics#Combating disease and epidemics be split into a separate page called Native American health. These issues are addressed separately and these sections are large enough to make their own page. Moreover, redirecting "Native American health" to "disease and epidemics" is a somewhat offensive and certainly astonishing shift. Carwil ( talk) 19:22, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
In sentences like "By 1832, the federal government of the United States established a smallpox vaccination program for Native Americans." for example, isn't it more accurate to say "American Indians"? The term was in common use at the time. The term is actually used in the official name of the program. And the federal government STILL uses that term. It seems misleading, the way that it is currently written.
Drsruli (talk) 07:16, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, all of that history serves to support my question.
Drsruli ( talk) 17:00, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
This page needs a major overhaul around the virgin soil THEORY.
For example, see recent work over at Population history of Indigenous peoples of the Americas related to germs and connection to physical violence. Crosby's virgin soil idea is a theory, and it is one that was bolstered and made famous in popular histories by Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel. However, it is not an accepted "effect." For example, see current representation of recent scholarship at the population history page:
"... recently scholars have studied the link between physical colonial violence such as warfare, displacement, and enslavement, and the proliferation of disease among Native populations. [1] [2] For example, according to Coquille scholar Dina Gilio-Whitaker, "In recent decades, however, researchers challenge the idea that disease is solely responsible for the rapid Indigenous population decline. The research identifies other aspects of European contact that had profoundly negative impacts on Native peoples' ability to survive foreign invasion: war, massacres, enslavement, overwork, deportation, the loss of will to live or reproduce, malnutrition and starvation from the breakdown of trade networks, and the loss of subsistence food production due to land loss." [3]
Further, Andrés Reséndez of the University of California, Davis points out that, even though the Spanish were aware of deadly diseases such as smallpox, there is no mention of them in the New World until 1519, implying that, until that date, epidemic disease played no significant part in the depopulation of the Antilles. The practices of forced labor, brutal punishment, and inadequate necessities of life, were the initial and major reasons for depopulation. [4] Jason Hickel estimates that a third of Arawak workers died every six months from forced labor in these mines. [5] In this way, "slavery has emerged as a major killer" of the indigenous populations of the Caribbean between 1492 and 1550, as it set the conditions for diseases such as smallpox, influenza and malaria to flourish. [4] Unlike the populations of Europe who rebounded following the Black Death, no such rebound occurred for the Indigenous populations. [4]
Similarly, historian Jeffrey Ostler at The University of Oregon has argued that population collapses in the Americas throughout colonization were not mainly due to lack of Native immunity to European disease. Instead, he claims that "When severe epidemics did hit, it was often less because Native bodies lacked immunity than because European colonialism disrupted Native communities and damaged their resources, making them more vulnerable to pathogens." In specific regard to Spanish colonization of northern Florida and southeastern Georgia, Native peoples there "were subject to forced labor and, because of poor living conditions and malnutrition, succumbed to wave after wave of unidentifiable diseases." Further, in relation to British colonization in the Northeast, Algonquian speaking tribes in Virginia and Maryland "suffered from a variety of diseases, including malaria, typhus, and possibly smallpox." These diseases were not solely a case of Native susceptibility, however, because "as colonists took their resources, Native communities were subject to malnutrition, starvation, and social stress, all making people more vulnerable to pathogens. Repeated epidemics created additional trauma and population loss, which in turn disrupted the provision of healthcare." Such conditions would continue, alongside rampant disease in Native communities, throughout colonization, the formation of the United States, and multiple forced removals, as Ostler explains that many scholars "have yet to come to grips with how U.S. expansion created conditions that made Native communities acutely vulnerable to pathogens and how severely disease impacted them. ... Historians continue to ignore the catastrophic impact of disease and its relationship to U.S. policy and action even when it is right before their eyes." [6]"
I'll get something written up in a little while, but would like to hear other opinions first. -- Hobomok ( talk) 21:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
:0
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 27 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NativeBear4 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: JThomasAnthropologist, Nidaannes. This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NJHaley1776 ( article contribs).
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2019 and 31 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kaylinmariemarshall.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2019 and 20 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emga111. Peer reviewers: Weuerle.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 04:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Talk:Modern social statistics of Native Americans Melchoir ( talk) 01:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This page is also under significant construction as a subset of the page listed above. It will also undergo significant changes to provide well documented information about Native American health, which plays a notable role in health services, the history of biological warfare, and more. Please allow some patience to bring the page up to par, and suggestions are appreciated :) Smgaynor ( talk) 02:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I had a question about these two pages. It seems like there is a bit of an overlap when it comes to Native American health, as diseases such as diabetes and alcoholism are contemporary and prevalent issues. Should we clean up the two articles? Combine them? Let me know what you guys think!
Jjgotshwifty ( talk) 08:26, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
The article is entitled "Native American disease and epidemics" and yet there is nothing about any native diseases or epidemics. There are, however, plenty of references to European diseases and epidemics brought to the new world. I think this needs to be re-titled, and the article's incorrect slant needs re-work. Proof of this is shown in part by the first section's statement of "Native Americans have been affected by disease and health concerns throughout their history...". This is left standing without any proof whatsoever. I don't know about other readers, but I come to the article for facts, not speculation. - KitchM ( talk) 05:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
References
I've reverted this bold edit for reasons best described at WP:BRD. There are a number of issues with that problematic edit, including (but not limited to):
Your edit summary warned me: "This is a direct misrepresentation of the cited sources." Um yeah, we don't allow that. And your deletion of sourced content while you cite an essay saying you "don't like it" doesn't work here. You'll need more substantive reasoning than that. Xenophrenic ( talk) 23:36, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Could you explain how exactly my way of noting it differed..., so I explained to you that your way places unwarranted attribution on what should be an assertion of fact in Wikipedia's voice. Please let me know if you wish to revisit that. You also asked,
Can you explain to me how it is somehow not POV to change "may have" to "likely did", and I explained to you that "may have" is just one quote from one sentence from one cited source. If taken in isolation as the only source (or indeed, the only thing said in that Fenn source) on that assertion, then you might have a valid concern, but that isn't the case. While Fenn diplomatically said biological warfare "may have occurred more frequently than scholars have previously acknowledged" in her opening summary, you are forgetting that (1) Kelton then elevated the likelihood beyond "may have", noting the "persuasive scholarly support" in the evidence that bio-warfare was actually more widespread, and (2) Mann then updated the "may have occurred" to "did occur" at least three more times, as noted by Johansen (see "the deliberate dissemination of disease, in these four cases"), and (3) and Fenn herself concluded, after noting the evidence, that it not only "may have" occurred more often, it actually had "an established, if irregular, place in late-eighteenth-century warfare". And Wheelis, who is cited by Fenn, Kelton and Mann (you really need to pay attention to the footnotes), notes that "it most likely occurred more frequently than is reported in surviving accounts." Based on the aggregate of cited reliable sources, not just the Fenn source, the "may have" wording is not accurate. You also asked about my
reasons for deleting the sourced quote, which was already asked and answered (see my first comment in this thread, third bullet-point), and I further prompted you to pay closer attention to the footnote appended in support of the text you quoted. And lastly, there is one question of yours (asked twice) to which I have intentionally not yet responded (your request that I do you the favor of providing you with a "
direct quote" about the "reducing the stigma" content), because you haven't indicated that you have even bothered to review the sources on that.
There certainly is a real problem here in that there is only evidence of smallpox-infected blankets ever being given to Indians once. Claims that it must have happened many times and the evidence must have been destroyed are 100% speculation because by definition there is no evidence. To make any claim about anything there must be some evidence, but here there is none at all. One might as well equally claim, say, that Aliens did it but wiped people's memories using mnemonic ray-guns. Logically a rewrite is I order |I believe. Cassandra. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.210.219.246 (
talk)
13:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
In light of the fact that it wasn't until the mid 1800s before germ theory was widely accepted, how can it be possible that Biological warfare was intentionally used during the Siege of Fort Pitt in 1763? The accepted theory at the time would not have seen blankets as a disease carrier. This definitely looks like revisionist history to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.208.30 ( talk) 18:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Native American disease and epidemics. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The article currently states, "There is persuasive scholarly support that such incidents likely have occurred more frequently than scholars have acknowledged". Is it just me or is this contradictory? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 23:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
I've spent some considerable time investigating and trying to find such 'persuasive scholarly evidence' but can't find any. The Fort Pitt incident is certainly real - but anything else is in the realm of legend and myth, unless some evidence actually turns up. My suspicion is that modern writers just can't grasp how contagious smallpox was quite naturally, and therefore simply assume some evil persons must have been responsible. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.174.141 ( talk) 17:20, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
One key source of unfounded claims of genocide by smallpox has been the discredited writer Ward Churchill:
The "preponderance of evidence" standard of proof strongly indicates that Churchill fabricated events that never occurred—namely the U.S. Army's alleged distribution of smallpox infested blankets to the Mandan Indians in 1837. The analysis additionally reveals that Churchill falsified sources to support his fabricated version of events, and also concealed evidence in his cited sources ...
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/plag/5240451.0001.009/--did-the-us-army-distribute-smallpox-blankets-to-indians?rgn=main;view=fulltext — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.32.173 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
I propose that sections Native American disease and epidemics#Contemporary diseases and Native American disease and epidemics#Combating disease and epidemics be split into a separate page called Native American health. These issues are addressed separately and these sections are large enough to make their own page. Moreover, redirecting "Native American health" to "disease and epidemics" is a somewhat offensive and certainly astonishing shift. Carwil ( talk) 19:22, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
In sentences like "By 1832, the federal government of the United States established a smallpox vaccination program for Native Americans." for example, isn't it more accurate to say "American Indians"? The term was in common use at the time. The term is actually used in the official name of the program. And the federal government STILL uses that term. It seems misleading, the way that it is currently written.
Drsruli (talk) 07:16, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, all of that history serves to support my question.
Drsruli ( talk) 17:00, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
This page needs a major overhaul around the virgin soil THEORY.
For example, see recent work over at Population history of Indigenous peoples of the Americas related to germs and connection to physical violence. Crosby's virgin soil idea is a theory, and it is one that was bolstered and made famous in popular histories by Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel. However, it is not an accepted "effect." For example, see current representation of recent scholarship at the population history page:
"... recently scholars have studied the link between physical colonial violence such as warfare, displacement, and enslavement, and the proliferation of disease among Native populations. [1] [2] For example, according to Coquille scholar Dina Gilio-Whitaker, "In recent decades, however, researchers challenge the idea that disease is solely responsible for the rapid Indigenous population decline. The research identifies other aspects of European contact that had profoundly negative impacts on Native peoples' ability to survive foreign invasion: war, massacres, enslavement, overwork, deportation, the loss of will to live or reproduce, malnutrition and starvation from the breakdown of trade networks, and the loss of subsistence food production due to land loss." [3]
Further, Andrés Reséndez of the University of California, Davis points out that, even though the Spanish were aware of deadly diseases such as smallpox, there is no mention of them in the New World until 1519, implying that, until that date, epidemic disease played no significant part in the depopulation of the Antilles. The practices of forced labor, brutal punishment, and inadequate necessities of life, were the initial and major reasons for depopulation. [4] Jason Hickel estimates that a third of Arawak workers died every six months from forced labor in these mines. [5] In this way, "slavery has emerged as a major killer" of the indigenous populations of the Caribbean between 1492 and 1550, as it set the conditions for diseases such as smallpox, influenza and malaria to flourish. [4] Unlike the populations of Europe who rebounded following the Black Death, no such rebound occurred for the Indigenous populations. [4]
Similarly, historian Jeffrey Ostler at The University of Oregon has argued that population collapses in the Americas throughout colonization were not mainly due to lack of Native immunity to European disease. Instead, he claims that "When severe epidemics did hit, it was often less because Native bodies lacked immunity than because European colonialism disrupted Native communities and damaged their resources, making them more vulnerable to pathogens." In specific regard to Spanish colonization of northern Florida and southeastern Georgia, Native peoples there "were subject to forced labor and, because of poor living conditions and malnutrition, succumbed to wave after wave of unidentifiable diseases." Further, in relation to British colonization in the Northeast, Algonquian speaking tribes in Virginia and Maryland "suffered from a variety of diseases, including malaria, typhus, and possibly smallpox." These diseases were not solely a case of Native susceptibility, however, because "as colonists took their resources, Native communities were subject to malnutrition, starvation, and social stress, all making people more vulnerable to pathogens. Repeated epidemics created additional trauma and population loss, which in turn disrupted the provision of healthcare." Such conditions would continue, alongside rampant disease in Native communities, throughout colonization, the formation of the United States, and multiple forced removals, as Ostler explains that many scholars "have yet to come to grips with how U.S. expansion created conditions that made Native communities acutely vulnerable to pathogens and how severely disease impacted them. ... Historians continue to ignore the catastrophic impact of disease and its relationship to U.S. policy and action even when it is right before their eyes." [6]"
I'll get something written up in a little while, but would like to hear other opinions first. -- Hobomok ( talk) 21:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
:0
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).