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The name of the article is wrong: de:Mordserie Bosporus -look at the german discussion!-- ot ( talk) 17:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Done. bosporus and other names have nothing to do with the events and highly misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 00:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough. "Ceska" is also misleading . Readers might think this event has some connection with a Czech neo nazi terrorist organization . The independent uses "neo-Nazi terrorist gangs" . i will change it to neo-Nazi terrorist gang murders.I will wait for your response before i change it . i am adding the link here .please look at it. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-secret-service-destroys-files-on-neonazi-terrorist-gang-the-national-socialist-underground-7897090.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 10:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
hey how is everything, i have been waiting for couple days .i did more research on this.We need to change this (bospohorus,kebapshop or ceska) title, its very wrong and very misleading. I am changing the title. please talk to me on the talk page . i sent a message to you . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you my friend , i ve also checked the source you sent me . I am following and learning so many things each day. i will be keep in touch with you. I think you guys already know it but i just want to share my view here.There are so many terrorist organizations all around the world.This group is just one of them .The US, Uk ,Russia,China,Japan,Turkey,India and so many other countries are dealing and fighting with terrorism .These groups have nothing to do with the country they are in, this group has nothing to do with Germany.its just a group in germany, it has nothing to do with the public. i strongly believe that there are more terrorist groups in countries like Turkey and Russia. just wanted to share my view . take care ,God bless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 12:18, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Text "Reuters" ignored (
help)Removed sources that may be of use. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 20:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I think this contains important information, so I will translate that article.
-- Hundehalter ( talk) 23:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
One more source. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 22:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
This section claims (without any sources) that she was killed with the same weapon as the other victims in this article. This cannot be true, as the link (between the nine xenophobic murders and the killing of the police officer) had only been uncovered by finding all the involved weapons in the possession of the Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund. But I propose to delete this section entirely, as this murder was not handled by the SOKO Bosporus, and it is already covered by an article of its own: Michéle Kiesewetter. -- Mopskatze ( talk) 01:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
"The perpetrators called themselves National Socialist Underground (NSU) (German: Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund). " Sounds like a proven fact. At the moment this is by no means the case and the evidence used for this is rather dubious. -- 41.151.42.230 ( talk) 14:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Should this be added to the article? -- A Certain White Cat chi? 16:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, being German myself, I was a bit astonished about the bias this article has. There is one aspect which is absolutely not emphasized, though it is central: The murders took place over a longer period of time which started years ago. The series got considerable attention in the German media at each time one of the murders happended, because it appeared to be a kind of mystery as no suspects were ever identified, and that each time the same weapon was used. However, neither press nor the investigators then EVER made a serious attempt to raise a suspicion about a political motivation. It was rather displayed as being some sort of "mobster style" revenge murders or sort of this, which also lead (in the past, before the nazi thing came out) to the victim's families being interrogated, suspected for drug trafficking/money laundering, etc. In other words, they did not only suffer from the loss, but additionally had an unnecessary involvement with the police etc. (see SPIEGEL article cited in the thread above this one)
This is also the reason why the German public got a major shock when it came out that the murders had a Neonazi background. Firstly, it had been considered that this kind of race-related hate murders were impossible to happen in Germany, which I still kind of believe. In my very personal view, this (amongst many other factors) strongly points to some kind of government/secret service involvement, which to a person familiar with European " Gladio / Strategy of tension" style activities seems very plausible in these cases.
However, this is not what I wanted to say. The mere fact that the murders were treated as being revenge acts purely amongst immigrants, and that it only came out now that the authorities have (at best) grossly neglected any hints to what they really (as it seems) were, posed a real shock to German society. Hence, many people feel/felt ashamed that the deeds were treated in a "it's just them who kill each other" fashion - which is symbolized in the name the investigation had in the headlines of the German tabloids: "Döner-Morde". Döner (for Döner Kebap) is a famous turkish fast food liked and regularly consumed by many Germans, and some of the victims had such fast food places. However, it is now viewed as derogatory, because if translated to the US or GB, it might be an example that a serial murder amongst indian (from India) shop owners would be called "curry murders". Thats why the term "Döner-Morde" was recently chosen by the "society for the German language" as the "Nono-Word" (Unwort) of 2011. On the other hand, this lately lead to some kind of "tourism" of politicians to the victim's families in order to apologize for the above, which in turn turned out to be a bit absurd, as the families suddenly got so much attention as if to compensate for the negligence beforehand.
Hence, it should at least be mentioned in the introduction that for a long time, the murders were treated in public an amongst investigators as "an internal thing between immigrants", and that there was that major turnaround only recently, when they uncovered the alleged Nazi group and their involvement. I did not look for english sources for my above statements, but I am sure there is plenty, at least commentaries in bigger newspapers with correspondents in Germany.
And, by the way, the hints respectively proofs for government/secret service involvement are numerous, the whole story stinks from start to end. It is officially confirmed that one of the three suspects got a REAL german passport or ID card on a FAKE identity some years ago from the agency whose name is "Verfassungsschutz" (yes, "agency for the protection of the constitution" ;-)), and that at one time one of them got a payment of a considerable amount of money, if I remember correctly, 2000 Marks (about 1500 Euro in today's currency). As there is undoubtedly a major cover-up going on, one does not want to know what really happened. Go reseach yourself. 217.7.150.122 ( talk) 16:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
First thought I could perhaps contribute something to the translation. But no! Won't do it, now that I have seen myself how rude and crude non-native speakers are treated here. - User "Kintetsubuffalo" dishing out arrogant remarks ("uh, no. and we use English here" 13:21, 8 July 2012) instead of ironing out their minor mistakes. :-( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.64 ( talk)
Won't you stop it now! Enough of it, for God's sake! - "Next time I will bring in the admins." - Towards whom you neither show even the tiniest bit of respect or decency whatsoever! - You know full well what you have written about that on your user's page and then - these funny "House Rules" of Wild Western mould on your "Don't you dare to contact me!"-page, which btw. are the main reason why this debate is going on here in the first place. - As for bullying, indecency and all the rest, you have already accumulated quite a track-record ... Well, it's about time to bring all this here to the attention of the WP's admin staff! (As I would expressively encourage anyone to do who's reading this and knows about the procedures.) - One thing more: please do not hijack or plagiarize any information for your more than dubious agenda, as you did with my contribution here (Section Article title) 06:15, 7 July 2012 in the phoney twisted post of yours above (14:31, 9 July 2012). - I did some investigating, and it's quite interesting to see that you were eager to keep racist websites in WP as 'sources of reference', drive-by tagged jewish victims of the Holocaust with "citation needed", display Abraham Lincoln as the scull on a scull and bones type Confederate Flag on your user page and lots more of that sort galore. -- 46.115.39.79 ( talk) 23:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
This looks childish. You don't have to accept my recommendation, but I am willing to help out here. Firstly, everyone needs to stop with the ongoing discussion about impolite and arrogant behavior. It's clear that this section will only lead to more attacks and icnivility. Secondly, if a problem still remains, then I recommend creating a new section that clearly explains the problem without attacking other editors, so editors, including myself, can look it over and make a recommendation on what we feel. Thanks. -- Activism 1234 00:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Fantastic, and thank you Activism1234 for jumping in with the rational solution!
If a name change is to be made, the new name must be specific, must convey meaning to a broad spectrum of users, and should not be easily confused with any other event. Thus we can dispense with any Neo-Nazi murder spree or similar clones, which convey no meaning or specificity as to time, location, targets, perpetrators, or outstanding trait that separates it from other events. The present name is widely accepted in English, and until a better name comes along, this one is better than the last two attempts. No agenda here, and I sign in so my edits are clear even to my stalkers. If someone has a better name, let's discuss it here and keep all the insinuations out of it.-- Kintetsubuffalo ( talk) 13:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
[You see, this here is what you're served, when heavy-handed "last clean edits" kill any new content in the cradle...) -- 46.115.43.95 ( talk) 06:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
From the text:
The murderers, according to the acting
Attorney General of Germany,
Rainer Greisbaum.,<ref>
"Video - Bundesstaatsanwalt: Polizisten- und Döner-Morde wohl Tat von Neonazis - Panorama" (in German). Retrieved 14 November 2011. {{
cite news}}
: Text "STERN.DE" ignored (
help)
dead link</ref> have
Neo-Nazi links
→Comment of 23:58, 29 November 2011: <!-- they do not just 'have links' , they are now supposed to be ~the biggest Neonazi-terrorists ~ever in german -->.
The Name of the serial muder has been critized as racist in Germany, the Name of the german-speaking article is NSU murders.-- Anti78er ( talk) 16:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
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The following measured article in The Guardian might be of use to those improving this page. [1] The article covers the role of the media in some detail. It also discusses the unsavory conduct of the BfV domestic intelligence service. Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison ( talk) 10:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
References
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The name of the article is wrong: de:Mordserie Bosporus -look at the german discussion!-- ot ( talk) 17:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Done. bosporus and other names have nothing to do with the events and highly misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 00:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough. "Ceska" is also misleading . Readers might think this event has some connection with a Czech neo nazi terrorist organization . The independent uses "neo-Nazi terrorist gangs" . i will change it to neo-Nazi terrorist gang murders.I will wait for your response before i change it . i am adding the link here .please look at it. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-secret-service-destroys-files-on-neonazi-terrorist-gang-the-national-socialist-underground-7897090.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 10:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
hey how is everything, i have been waiting for couple days .i did more research on this.We need to change this (bospohorus,kebapshop or ceska) title, its very wrong and very misleading. I am changing the title. please talk to me on the talk page . i sent a message to you . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you my friend , i ve also checked the source you sent me . I am following and learning so many things each day. i will be keep in touch with you. I think you guys already know it but i just want to share my view here.There are so many terrorist organizations all around the world.This group is just one of them .The US, Uk ,Russia,China,Japan,Turkey,India and so many other countries are dealing and fighting with terrorism .These groups have nothing to do with the country they are in, this group has nothing to do with Germany.its just a group in germany, it has nothing to do with the public. i strongly believe that there are more terrorist groups in countries like Turkey and Russia. just wanted to share my view . take care ,God bless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen ( talk • contribs) 12:18, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Text "Reuters" ignored (
help)Removed sources that may be of use. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 20:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I think this contains important information, so I will translate that article.
-- Hundehalter ( talk) 23:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
One more source. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 22:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
This section claims (without any sources) that she was killed with the same weapon as the other victims in this article. This cannot be true, as the link (between the nine xenophobic murders and the killing of the police officer) had only been uncovered by finding all the involved weapons in the possession of the Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund. But I propose to delete this section entirely, as this murder was not handled by the SOKO Bosporus, and it is already covered by an article of its own: Michéle Kiesewetter. -- Mopskatze ( talk) 01:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
"The perpetrators called themselves National Socialist Underground (NSU) (German: Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund). " Sounds like a proven fact. At the moment this is by no means the case and the evidence used for this is rather dubious. -- 41.151.42.230 ( talk) 14:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Should this be added to the article? -- A Certain White Cat chi? 16:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, being German myself, I was a bit astonished about the bias this article has. There is one aspect which is absolutely not emphasized, though it is central: The murders took place over a longer period of time which started years ago. The series got considerable attention in the German media at each time one of the murders happended, because it appeared to be a kind of mystery as no suspects were ever identified, and that each time the same weapon was used. However, neither press nor the investigators then EVER made a serious attempt to raise a suspicion about a political motivation. It was rather displayed as being some sort of "mobster style" revenge murders or sort of this, which also lead (in the past, before the nazi thing came out) to the victim's families being interrogated, suspected for drug trafficking/money laundering, etc. In other words, they did not only suffer from the loss, but additionally had an unnecessary involvement with the police etc. (see SPIEGEL article cited in the thread above this one)
This is also the reason why the German public got a major shock when it came out that the murders had a Neonazi background. Firstly, it had been considered that this kind of race-related hate murders were impossible to happen in Germany, which I still kind of believe. In my very personal view, this (amongst many other factors) strongly points to some kind of government/secret service involvement, which to a person familiar with European " Gladio / Strategy of tension" style activities seems very plausible in these cases.
However, this is not what I wanted to say. The mere fact that the murders were treated as being revenge acts purely amongst immigrants, and that it only came out now that the authorities have (at best) grossly neglected any hints to what they really (as it seems) were, posed a real shock to German society. Hence, many people feel/felt ashamed that the deeds were treated in a "it's just them who kill each other" fashion - which is symbolized in the name the investigation had in the headlines of the German tabloids: "Döner-Morde". Döner (for Döner Kebap) is a famous turkish fast food liked and regularly consumed by many Germans, and some of the victims had such fast food places. However, it is now viewed as derogatory, because if translated to the US or GB, it might be an example that a serial murder amongst indian (from India) shop owners would be called "curry murders". Thats why the term "Döner-Morde" was recently chosen by the "society for the German language" as the "Nono-Word" (Unwort) of 2011. On the other hand, this lately lead to some kind of "tourism" of politicians to the victim's families in order to apologize for the above, which in turn turned out to be a bit absurd, as the families suddenly got so much attention as if to compensate for the negligence beforehand.
Hence, it should at least be mentioned in the introduction that for a long time, the murders were treated in public an amongst investigators as "an internal thing between immigrants", and that there was that major turnaround only recently, when they uncovered the alleged Nazi group and their involvement. I did not look for english sources for my above statements, but I am sure there is plenty, at least commentaries in bigger newspapers with correspondents in Germany.
And, by the way, the hints respectively proofs for government/secret service involvement are numerous, the whole story stinks from start to end. It is officially confirmed that one of the three suspects got a REAL german passport or ID card on a FAKE identity some years ago from the agency whose name is "Verfassungsschutz" (yes, "agency for the protection of the constitution" ;-)), and that at one time one of them got a payment of a considerable amount of money, if I remember correctly, 2000 Marks (about 1500 Euro in today's currency). As there is undoubtedly a major cover-up going on, one does not want to know what really happened. Go reseach yourself. 217.7.150.122 ( talk) 16:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
First thought I could perhaps contribute something to the translation. But no! Won't do it, now that I have seen myself how rude and crude non-native speakers are treated here. - User "Kintetsubuffalo" dishing out arrogant remarks ("uh, no. and we use English here" 13:21, 8 July 2012) instead of ironing out their minor mistakes. :-( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.64 ( talk)
Won't you stop it now! Enough of it, for God's sake! - "Next time I will bring in the admins." - Towards whom you neither show even the tiniest bit of respect or decency whatsoever! - You know full well what you have written about that on your user's page and then - these funny "House Rules" of Wild Western mould on your "Don't you dare to contact me!"-page, which btw. are the main reason why this debate is going on here in the first place. - As for bullying, indecency and all the rest, you have already accumulated quite a track-record ... Well, it's about time to bring all this here to the attention of the WP's admin staff! (As I would expressively encourage anyone to do who's reading this and knows about the procedures.) - One thing more: please do not hijack or plagiarize any information for your more than dubious agenda, as you did with my contribution here (Section Article title) 06:15, 7 July 2012 in the phoney twisted post of yours above (14:31, 9 July 2012). - I did some investigating, and it's quite interesting to see that you were eager to keep racist websites in WP as 'sources of reference', drive-by tagged jewish victims of the Holocaust with "citation needed", display Abraham Lincoln as the scull on a scull and bones type Confederate Flag on your user page and lots more of that sort galore. -- 46.115.39.79 ( talk) 23:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
This looks childish. You don't have to accept my recommendation, but I am willing to help out here. Firstly, everyone needs to stop with the ongoing discussion about impolite and arrogant behavior. It's clear that this section will only lead to more attacks and icnivility. Secondly, if a problem still remains, then I recommend creating a new section that clearly explains the problem without attacking other editors, so editors, including myself, can look it over and make a recommendation on what we feel. Thanks. -- Activism 1234 00:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Fantastic, and thank you Activism1234 for jumping in with the rational solution!
If a name change is to be made, the new name must be specific, must convey meaning to a broad spectrum of users, and should not be easily confused with any other event. Thus we can dispense with any Neo-Nazi murder spree or similar clones, which convey no meaning or specificity as to time, location, targets, perpetrators, or outstanding trait that separates it from other events. The present name is widely accepted in English, and until a better name comes along, this one is better than the last two attempts. No agenda here, and I sign in so my edits are clear even to my stalkers. If someone has a better name, let's discuss it here and keep all the insinuations out of it.-- Kintetsubuffalo ( talk) 13:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
[You see, this here is what you're served, when heavy-handed "last clean edits" kill any new content in the cradle...) -- 46.115.43.95 ( talk) 06:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
From the text:
The murderers, according to the acting
Attorney General of Germany,
Rainer Greisbaum.,<ref>
"Video - Bundesstaatsanwalt: Polizisten- und Döner-Morde wohl Tat von Neonazis - Panorama" (in German). Retrieved 14 November 2011. {{
cite news}}
: Text "STERN.DE" ignored (
help)
dead link</ref> have
Neo-Nazi links
→Comment of 23:58, 29 November 2011: <!-- they do not just 'have links' , they are now supposed to be ~the biggest Neonazi-terrorists ~ever in german -->.
The Name of the serial muder has been critized as racist in Germany, the Name of the german-speaking article is NSU murders.-- Anti78er ( talk) 16:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:03, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
The following measured article in The Guardian might be of use to those improving this page. [1] The article covers the role of the media in some detail. It also discusses the unsavory conduct of the BfV domestic intelligence service. Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison ( talk) 10:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
References
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on National Socialist Underground murders. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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