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Does anyone know why Necker Island Archeological District and Nihoa Island Archeological District are listed under the sub-subheading of "Kauai" beneath the subheading of "Honolulu County?" Mitchell k dwyer 03:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Excerpt from Viriditas comment elsewhere, to be discussed here: Any idea why the restricted archaeological sites are redlinked? I can't see any way to create articles without information, so they should probably be de-linked. I haven't revisited this issue for about a year, but last time I did, I noticed a lot of discrepancies regarding the naming conventions used by the NRHP and the actual names. I see that some of the articles refer to this as alternate or older names, but this is somewhat ambiguous. In other words, in some instances, the NRHP designation may not be the best name for the actual article (or take precedent over the common name), while it is certainly appropriate for the infobox by itself. This can get pretty confusing, but I can recall at least several instances where this is a problem. Anyway, if you would like me to help out, I would be glad to help complete all the entries for Maui, or at least fact-check them asap. I see that you've broken the tables up by county, but you should also add a column for island, as some counties include more than one island, or if you can think of a better way to inform the reader as to what island each site belongs to, that would suffice. There are several more issues I would like to discuss with you.-- Viriditas
I was going to follow your lead and move all the rows to the new tables, but this would necessitate updating the numbering for the original table; Is there any way to simplify this procedure with an autonumber feature? Viriditas ( talk) 03:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I think we should just merge the Maui archaeological sites into the main Maui table for now. Viriditas ( talk) 09:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
[unindent] In this context, "Address Restricted" means that the NRHP doesn't give the address. It doesn't mean that nobody else does, or that you're not allowed to go there. As Elkman has observed on his talk page, "There could also be occasional data errors in there. Second and Market Streets Historic District, in Louisville, Kentucky, is listed as "Address Restricted", though I suspect that if I walked down Market Street in Louisville, I'd start seeing historic buildings in the 200 block." I'm sure that these sites aren't "address-restricted" by accident, as the Louisville district is, but that's basically what we're talking about here. Nyttend ( talk) 16:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
There are 319 such places in Hawaii, appearing in four of Hawaii's five counties (Kalawao County has none)
I recommend looking a bit more into this. I remember reading something about this several years ago that explained why it may or may not be part of the county. In other words, we need official confirmation on this point. Viriditas ( talk) 12:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Since several of you have been discussing/working on it, I guess I'll not spend tons of time reworking everything :-) or indeed anything without discussion; but I was going to ignore counties altogether when I reworked this list. Do we need county headers at all? It's one thing with the other 49 states to divide by counties/parishes/boroughsandcensusareas, but since we've got rather clear boundaries (even though they are fluid :-) between the islands, I think it would be much simpler to leave them out altogether. Let's have nine different sections for the eight major islands plus Kahoʻolawe (although does Niʻihau have any? If not, just eight) with a little note above each table: "_____ is included in _____ County", plus a map of the island. To make sure that counties aren't confused at the top, we could include a little bit about which island is in which county, so the reader wouldn't have to look at the individual island list to see the county. This will make moot the question of multiple tables with the same numbering, and it should make the article more easily navigable (we wouldn't have to put Lanaʻi after Oʻahu) without sacrificing the ability to move between counties. Nyttend ( talk) 21:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
One more thing — by doing this way, we'd neither have the inaccuracy of placing Kalaupapa in Maui County nor have the confusing fact of leaving it off the list of places on Molokaʻi. All we would need to do would be to put in with the rest of the Molokaʻi properties with a note that, unlike every other property on the island, it was in Kalawao County. Nyttend ( talk) 21:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
[unindent] I'm trying to put in the new set of tables, but for some reason it won't work. Check the "nowiki" version on my sandbox here; could one of you please try to place it on the article? There's a problem with the number of sites, but as I have schoolwork to do at the moment, I don't have any more time for editing. Can someone please check it and correct the numbers? Nyttend ( talk) 16:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Turns out that Opana Radar Site is not in Kawela, Hawaii, but Kawela Bay, Hawai'i. I'm fixing it now. Viriditas ( talk) 14:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to help complete the summary field for this entire article (not just Maui) but I want to do it right. Could someone point me in the right direction as to what this field should contain and what I should avoid adding? Looking through the lists, I've noticed many different ways of doing it. If someone could give me a little assurance on the required structure, I can help complete the task. Thanks. Viriditas ( talk) 09:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Most of that makes sense, but this idea that everything must be linked to an article for a summary to appear is somewhat foreign to me. I can provide a good summary for most entries (putting aside the individual archaeology articles for the moment), but not all entries require full articles. In other words, redirects to lists are sometimes appropriate or necessary. I respect your editorial judgment in this matter, but I cannot subscribe to that philosophy so I will agree to disagree on this minor point. I can think of many situations where an individual article is simply not necessary, and a small summary in a list suffices until the time comes that a new article is actually needed. Perhaps, I'm simply old skool or even deluded, but I don't believe every topic requires a separate article. For an example of this, see South Maui Coastal Heritage Corridor and its work in progress here. Many of these topics do not require separate articles, but there are enough sources on each topic to provide good summaries. Vancouver monument is a good example. One could create an article on this subject, but it would be an eternal stub. Kihei Boat Ramp is another. I can talk about the boat facilities, walking paths, and native plants and animals, but it doesn't really need a separate article. In these types of situations, it's better to group small stubs into larger regional articles or lists. Viriditas ( talk) 00:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Why does Falls of Clyde appear in upper case, both in the infobox on the main article and in this list? Viriditas ( talk) 21:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
[[Falls of Clyde|''Falls of Clyde'']]
I am working on the Big Island articles. One issue I noticed: the Kamoa Complex is the same as Holualoa 4 Archeological District (State Site No. 50-10-37-23.661) as far as I can tell. See http://www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com/hi/Hawaii/districts.html for example. This area is in Keolonahihi State Historical Park, which is not developed. I can write a stub with a little more research. Would anyone mind if I combined the table entries? Also see http://www.co.hawaii.hi.us/info/lako/EA-Sum2.htm W Nowicki ( talk) 23:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
What is the consensus on keeping this one article, or splitting it up? I tried to edit, and it takes several minutes to load (probably all those pictures, etc.). There was already a suggestion generated on edit to split the article up, since it was over 100KB. At least I would be more inclined to edit it if it did not take so long for each view. Many of the Big Island locations are not very good, for example. Now that all the work was done to split the tables, we could put each table in a separate article, for example, with this one having the county and island tables with links to the others. During transition we could move, say, Oahu and Big Island to their own pages first, then the others as time permits. It looks like California does it by County, so what do others think?
Another thought: the color code should be explained somewhere. Mahalo. W Nowicki ( talk) 20:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to see each island get its own list article, but it would probably be a bad idea to give Kahoolawe and the NW Islands separate list articles. Good to begin the splitting of ones that definitely need to be split out :-) I think we could do better on the naming, however: since we're going by islands rather than by counties, wouldn't it be better to have "National Register of Historic Places listings on _____" rather than "National Register of Historic Places listings in _____"? It seems more normal to talk about "on Oahu" than "in Oahu". Nyttend ( talk) 04:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I've participated in editing this list-article occasionally, but i notice repetitive edits back and forth about the presentation of article names here. Is the issue between editors just about the inclusion of okinas in the article titles displayed here in the list-article? -- doncram ( talk) 01:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
My two cents: Doncram, yes, the ʻokina is a diacritical mark that functions as a consonant used in modern orthography to help English speakers with pronounciation and meaning of Hawaiian words. The kahako is the long vowel mark, often considered optional since there are variations in pronounciation anyway. Their use is totally in compliance with the "use English" rule: they are exactly intended for English speakers, while native Hawaiians did not use them generally since they already knew how to pronounce the words. Taking them out does not convert a word into English at all. For example, Haʻikū is a town while "Haiku" is a form of poetry. The English name of Puʻuloa is not "Puuloa" but "Pearl Harbor". Diacritics are allowed in articles about European places; languages spoken by people with dark skin deserve the same respect. This has been discussed several times in the Hawaii manual of style with a reasonable (I think) compromise that most editors use.
Having said all that, I would be willing compromise and, say, use the old-fashioned names from the NRIS database (usually no diacritics but sometimes appostrophes) in this table, the titles of articles, and perhaps even the nrhp infobox titles. But allow more modern typography in the body. The GNIS used diacritics since the late 90s and U.S. Census will also be using diacritics in the 2010 census, so my approach was to work on biography articles until that data comes out. The NRHP seems to be busy enough on the "Focus" database which is a great step forward; any idea when they will get a modern system that handles diacritics? The question is: would a reader of Wikipedia rather have accurate articles about the NRHP places, or have all sorts of red links but perfectly matching the old 1970s database? If you want to keep the articles up to date, please do not push editors out by reverting our work. W Nowicki ( talk) 21:16, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for a professional perspective. I am a mere amateur, but in my previous life was somehwat concerned with reasonably useful accurate notation. My pet peave is how NRHP changes word order in "House" sites e.g. "W. H. Shipman House" appears in the database as "House, Shipman, W. H." or somesuch making queries confusing. So there are cases where we can diverge from the letter of the database.
I am still unclear on what exact policy is being proposed. I would add a #4 to your list, writing the name in the body of the text. The current Puunene School article uses the diacritics in the body, which would be consistent with the Hawaii MOS. Can we use diacritics in bodies now, without fear of being reverted in the name of claims that removing diacritics converts it to "English"? As above argument about diacritics in titles might be much less relevant now that browsers have better support for Unicode - I do see some of them slipping in, but will continue to avoid them myself in titles. Allowing them would help reduce all the zillions of piped links. And given the okina template has not changed the character in three years now, using the Unicode directly might be reasonable to consider.
I would make the distinction between different names such as your example of "Greenwich Village" vs. "Greenwich Village Historic District", and merely different ways of writing the same name. English has a long tradition of using simplified writings of words that would not always be appropriate for Wikipedia. Your example of "St" for "Street" might be more analagous. A similar one I run into is churches named for saints: often they are spelled something like: "St Pauls Cathedral" when more properly it would be "St. Paul's Cathedral" or "Saint Paul's Cathedral". (I was surprised by the title of St Paul's Cathedral for example, which uses the odd choice of appostrophe but no period to disambiguate, but I digress) "St Paul, MN" is the most common spelling of the midwestern state capital, but the article is titled Saint Paul, Minnesota. So English convention is to use the fully spelled name even if the simplified one is more common. The lead there does mention "St. Paul" with the period, but does not say it is also more commonly written as "St Paul" because that is obvious to most English speakers that "St Paul" is a simplified way of writing "Saint Paul" and not a different name. If you polled most English Wikipedia readers, I would guess most readers would recognize that "Puunene" is a simplified writing of "Puʻunēnē". Most readers looking up one or the other should not be confused (and for collation purposes, and typing at a keyboard, omit diacritics anyway). The famous street in Paris is titled Champs-Élysées, and does not state that it is more commonly spelled sans accent aigu en Anglais. Why not treat all languages equally? Not sure what the value is for outlawing diacritics in NRHP names. In other words, there seems little benefit being worth all the reverts. W Nowicki ( talk) 20:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Those of us who work on articles that lie at the intersection of WP Hawaii and WP NRHP content (W Nowicki & me rather actively at the moment) are caught between two reasonable style guides, one of which encourages use of okina and kahako, while the other discourages such use. So it sounds like the compromise here is to use NRHP rules for NRHP listings sites and for NRHP titles in NRHP infoboxes, but to follow WP Hawaii practice elsewhere in the articles, which are (by definition) about content important to the history of Hawaiʻi. Joel ( talk) 01:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Well as stated above (perhaps not clearly) I disagree with it since it does not any information to the article. But will go along if it means being allowed to use diacritics in the body. I also still do not see any value in forcing the exact writing in the box as per the old database. The nomination form should be cited, and a person who cares can just follow that link in the References, or look up by id which avoids all the issues with mis-spellings and mangled word order, etc. The article should have a super-set of the information in the nomination form, and even the infobox has just about everything in the NRIS, so the reader gains no information from having the simplified spellling in the infobox nor table. I find the nom forms a god start, but there are so many mistakes I find in them, we should encourage other sources, IMHO. But again will abide by consensus. Real ʻokinas can be in article names, just use the unicode as is done for European languages. See for example Kalaniʻōpuʻu. W Nowicki ( talk) 02:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Although it is getting off-topic if the issue is more than diacritics. One question I have is why once in a while the state identifier is included in the NRHP name, which makes it look ugly IMO. For example Holualoa 4 Archeological District (State Site No. 50-10-37-23.661) I think the "error" here is that the State site should be alternative name, not part of the primary name. Also see the Archeological Sites at Kawela. Since none of the nom forms will ever be available, I agree one article makes sense. Would prefer one line in the table here too instead of listing them all. There is one outright typo in the NRIS now that you remind me I should add to your list. Thanks. W Nowicki ( talk) 15:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I never said it was urgent, but it has been like a year and still not resolved. I was just hoping that despite the fact that Wikipedia is not a mirror some zealot would not come along and revert my changes insisting on a separate article and infobox that reproduces the NRHP database exactly one-for-one. In the meanwhile I will continue the merged article on all the Kawela sites, with a table in it that summaries info from NRIS and the state registry, plus history books on the area. Still have a bit more work on it.
Joel, I think one problem is that many ancient sites do not have an "address" since there were no "mail" deliveries before there was a written language. :-) Kahaluu Bay is a case where there is a very popular tourist (and local) beach there, but the beach does not have an "address". They really need a "not applicable" entry in addition to the "restricted" one. Now in the case of Kawela, I found one site from Google maps, but that is hardly a well-kept secret. Let's just keep doing reasonable things. W Nowicki ( talk) 23:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
All- Just a quick question, concerning the use of Hansens Disease vs Leprosy. WHY do we use the term Hansens Disease, when in reality, many many more people will know the term Leprosy?? Coal town guy ( talk) 13:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
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Does anyone know why Necker Island Archeological District and Nihoa Island Archeological District are listed under the sub-subheading of "Kauai" beneath the subheading of "Honolulu County?" Mitchell k dwyer 03:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Excerpt from Viriditas comment elsewhere, to be discussed here: Any idea why the restricted archaeological sites are redlinked? I can't see any way to create articles without information, so they should probably be de-linked. I haven't revisited this issue for about a year, but last time I did, I noticed a lot of discrepancies regarding the naming conventions used by the NRHP and the actual names. I see that some of the articles refer to this as alternate or older names, but this is somewhat ambiguous. In other words, in some instances, the NRHP designation may not be the best name for the actual article (or take precedent over the common name), while it is certainly appropriate for the infobox by itself. This can get pretty confusing, but I can recall at least several instances where this is a problem. Anyway, if you would like me to help out, I would be glad to help complete all the entries for Maui, or at least fact-check them asap. I see that you've broken the tables up by county, but you should also add a column for island, as some counties include more than one island, or if you can think of a better way to inform the reader as to what island each site belongs to, that would suffice. There are several more issues I would like to discuss with you.-- Viriditas
I was going to follow your lead and move all the rows to the new tables, but this would necessitate updating the numbering for the original table; Is there any way to simplify this procedure with an autonumber feature? Viriditas ( talk) 03:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I think we should just merge the Maui archaeological sites into the main Maui table for now. Viriditas ( talk) 09:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
[unindent] In this context, "Address Restricted" means that the NRHP doesn't give the address. It doesn't mean that nobody else does, or that you're not allowed to go there. As Elkman has observed on his talk page, "There could also be occasional data errors in there. Second and Market Streets Historic District, in Louisville, Kentucky, is listed as "Address Restricted", though I suspect that if I walked down Market Street in Louisville, I'd start seeing historic buildings in the 200 block." I'm sure that these sites aren't "address-restricted" by accident, as the Louisville district is, but that's basically what we're talking about here. Nyttend ( talk) 16:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
There are 319 such places in Hawaii, appearing in four of Hawaii's five counties (Kalawao County has none)
I recommend looking a bit more into this. I remember reading something about this several years ago that explained why it may or may not be part of the county. In other words, we need official confirmation on this point. Viriditas ( talk) 12:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Since several of you have been discussing/working on it, I guess I'll not spend tons of time reworking everything :-) or indeed anything without discussion; but I was going to ignore counties altogether when I reworked this list. Do we need county headers at all? It's one thing with the other 49 states to divide by counties/parishes/boroughsandcensusareas, but since we've got rather clear boundaries (even though they are fluid :-) between the islands, I think it would be much simpler to leave them out altogether. Let's have nine different sections for the eight major islands plus Kahoʻolawe (although does Niʻihau have any? If not, just eight) with a little note above each table: "_____ is included in _____ County", plus a map of the island. To make sure that counties aren't confused at the top, we could include a little bit about which island is in which county, so the reader wouldn't have to look at the individual island list to see the county. This will make moot the question of multiple tables with the same numbering, and it should make the article more easily navigable (we wouldn't have to put Lanaʻi after Oʻahu) without sacrificing the ability to move between counties. Nyttend ( talk) 21:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
One more thing — by doing this way, we'd neither have the inaccuracy of placing Kalaupapa in Maui County nor have the confusing fact of leaving it off the list of places on Molokaʻi. All we would need to do would be to put in with the rest of the Molokaʻi properties with a note that, unlike every other property on the island, it was in Kalawao County. Nyttend ( talk) 21:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
[unindent] I'm trying to put in the new set of tables, but for some reason it won't work. Check the "nowiki" version on my sandbox here; could one of you please try to place it on the article? There's a problem with the number of sites, but as I have schoolwork to do at the moment, I don't have any more time for editing. Can someone please check it and correct the numbers? Nyttend ( talk) 16:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Turns out that Opana Radar Site is not in Kawela, Hawaii, but Kawela Bay, Hawai'i. I'm fixing it now. Viriditas ( talk) 14:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to help complete the summary field for this entire article (not just Maui) but I want to do it right. Could someone point me in the right direction as to what this field should contain and what I should avoid adding? Looking through the lists, I've noticed many different ways of doing it. If someone could give me a little assurance on the required structure, I can help complete the task. Thanks. Viriditas ( talk) 09:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Most of that makes sense, but this idea that everything must be linked to an article for a summary to appear is somewhat foreign to me. I can provide a good summary for most entries (putting aside the individual archaeology articles for the moment), but not all entries require full articles. In other words, redirects to lists are sometimes appropriate or necessary. I respect your editorial judgment in this matter, but I cannot subscribe to that philosophy so I will agree to disagree on this minor point. I can think of many situations where an individual article is simply not necessary, and a small summary in a list suffices until the time comes that a new article is actually needed. Perhaps, I'm simply old skool or even deluded, but I don't believe every topic requires a separate article. For an example of this, see South Maui Coastal Heritage Corridor and its work in progress here. Many of these topics do not require separate articles, but there are enough sources on each topic to provide good summaries. Vancouver monument is a good example. One could create an article on this subject, but it would be an eternal stub. Kihei Boat Ramp is another. I can talk about the boat facilities, walking paths, and native plants and animals, but it doesn't really need a separate article. In these types of situations, it's better to group small stubs into larger regional articles or lists. Viriditas ( talk) 00:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Why does Falls of Clyde appear in upper case, both in the infobox on the main article and in this list? Viriditas ( talk) 21:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
[[Falls of Clyde|''Falls of Clyde'']]
I am working on the Big Island articles. One issue I noticed: the Kamoa Complex is the same as Holualoa 4 Archeological District (State Site No. 50-10-37-23.661) as far as I can tell. See http://www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com/hi/Hawaii/districts.html for example. This area is in Keolonahihi State Historical Park, which is not developed. I can write a stub with a little more research. Would anyone mind if I combined the table entries? Also see http://www.co.hawaii.hi.us/info/lako/EA-Sum2.htm W Nowicki ( talk) 23:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
What is the consensus on keeping this one article, or splitting it up? I tried to edit, and it takes several minutes to load (probably all those pictures, etc.). There was already a suggestion generated on edit to split the article up, since it was over 100KB. At least I would be more inclined to edit it if it did not take so long for each view. Many of the Big Island locations are not very good, for example. Now that all the work was done to split the tables, we could put each table in a separate article, for example, with this one having the county and island tables with links to the others. During transition we could move, say, Oahu and Big Island to their own pages first, then the others as time permits. It looks like California does it by County, so what do others think?
Another thought: the color code should be explained somewhere. Mahalo. W Nowicki ( talk) 20:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to see each island get its own list article, but it would probably be a bad idea to give Kahoolawe and the NW Islands separate list articles. Good to begin the splitting of ones that definitely need to be split out :-) I think we could do better on the naming, however: since we're going by islands rather than by counties, wouldn't it be better to have "National Register of Historic Places listings on _____" rather than "National Register of Historic Places listings in _____"? It seems more normal to talk about "on Oahu" than "in Oahu". Nyttend ( talk) 04:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I've participated in editing this list-article occasionally, but i notice repetitive edits back and forth about the presentation of article names here. Is the issue between editors just about the inclusion of okinas in the article titles displayed here in the list-article? -- doncram ( talk) 01:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
My two cents: Doncram, yes, the ʻokina is a diacritical mark that functions as a consonant used in modern orthography to help English speakers with pronounciation and meaning of Hawaiian words. The kahako is the long vowel mark, often considered optional since there are variations in pronounciation anyway. Their use is totally in compliance with the "use English" rule: they are exactly intended for English speakers, while native Hawaiians did not use them generally since they already knew how to pronounce the words. Taking them out does not convert a word into English at all. For example, Haʻikū is a town while "Haiku" is a form of poetry. The English name of Puʻuloa is not "Puuloa" but "Pearl Harbor". Diacritics are allowed in articles about European places; languages spoken by people with dark skin deserve the same respect. This has been discussed several times in the Hawaii manual of style with a reasonable (I think) compromise that most editors use.
Having said all that, I would be willing compromise and, say, use the old-fashioned names from the NRIS database (usually no diacritics but sometimes appostrophes) in this table, the titles of articles, and perhaps even the nrhp infobox titles. But allow more modern typography in the body. The GNIS used diacritics since the late 90s and U.S. Census will also be using diacritics in the 2010 census, so my approach was to work on biography articles until that data comes out. The NRHP seems to be busy enough on the "Focus" database which is a great step forward; any idea when they will get a modern system that handles diacritics? The question is: would a reader of Wikipedia rather have accurate articles about the NRHP places, or have all sorts of red links but perfectly matching the old 1970s database? If you want to keep the articles up to date, please do not push editors out by reverting our work. W Nowicki ( talk) 21:16, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for a professional perspective. I am a mere amateur, but in my previous life was somehwat concerned with reasonably useful accurate notation. My pet peave is how NRHP changes word order in "House" sites e.g. "W. H. Shipman House" appears in the database as "House, Shipman, W. H." or somesuch making queries confusing. So there are cases where we can diverge from the letter of the database.
I am still unclear on what exact policy is being proposed. I would add a #4 to your list, writing the name in the body of the text. The current Puunene School article uses the diacritics in the body, which would be consistent with the Hawaii MOS. Can we use diacritics in bodies now, without fear of being reverted in the name of claims that removing diacritics converts it to "English"? As above argument about diacritics in titles might be much less relevant now that browsers have better support for Unicode - I do see some of them slipping in, but will continue to avoid them myself in titles. Allowing them would help reduce all the zillions of piped links. And given the okina template has not changed the character in three years now, using the Unicode directly might be reasonable to consider.
I would make the distinction between different names such as your example of "Greenwich Village" vs. "Greenwich Village Historic District", and merely different ways of writing the same name. English has a long tradition of using simplified writings of words that would not always be appropriate for Wikipedia. Your example of "St" for "Street" might be more analagous. A similar one I run into is churches named for saints: often they are spelled something like: "St Pauls Cathedral" when more properly it would be "St. Paul's Cathedral" or "Saint Paul's Cathedral". (I was surprised by the title of St Paul's Cathedral for example, which uses the odd choice of appostrophe but no period to disambiguate, but I digress) "St Paul, MN" is the most common spelling of the midwestern state capital, but the article is titled Saint Paul, Minnesota. So English convention is to use the fully spelled name even if the simplified one is more common. The lead there does mention "St. Paul" with the period, but does not say it is also more commonly written as "St Paul" because that is obvious to most English speakers that "St Paul" is a simplified way of writing "Saint Paul" and not a different name. If you polled most English Wikipedia readers, I would guess most readers would recognize that "Puunene" is a simplified writing of "Puʻunēnē". Most readers looking up one or the other should not be confused (and for collation purposes, and typing at a keyboard, omit diacritics anyway). The famous street in Paris is titled Champs-Élysées, and does not state that it is more commonly spelled sans accent aigu en Anglais. Why not treat all languages equally? Not sure what the value is for outlawing diacritics in NRHP names. In other words, there seems little benefit being worth all the reverts. W Nowicki ( talk) 20:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Those of us who work on articles that lie at the intersection of WP Hawaii and WP NRHP content (W Nowicki & me rather actively at the moment) are caught between two reasonable style guides, one of which encourages use of okina and kahako, while the other discourages such use. So it sounds like the compromise here is to use NRHP rules for NRHP listings sites and for NRHP titles in NRHP infoboxes, but to follow WP Hawaii practice elsewhere in the articles, which are (by definition) about content important to the history of Hawaiʻi. Joel ( talk) 01:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Well as stated above (perhaps not clearly) I disagree with it since it does not any information to the article. But will go along if it means being allowed to use diacritics in the body. I also still do not see any value in forcing the exact writing in the box as per the old database. The nomination form should be cited, and a person who cares can just follow that link in the References, or look up by id which avoids all the issues with mis-spellings and mangled word order, etc. The article should have a super-set of the information in the nomination form, and even the infobox has just about everything in the NRIS, so the reader gains no information from having the simplified spellling in the infobox nor table. I find the nom forms a god start, but there are so many mistakes I find in them, we should encourage other sources, IMHO. But again will abide by consensus. Real ʻokinas can be in article names, just use the unicode as is done for European languages. See for example Kalaniʻōpuʻu. W Nowicki ( talk) 02:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Although it is getting off-topic if the issue is more than diacritics. One question I have is why once in a while the state identifier is included in the NRHP name, which makes it look ugly IMO. For example Holualoa 4 Archeological District (State Site No. 50-10-37-23.661) I think the "error" here is that the State site should be alternative name, not part of the primary name. Also see the Archeological Sites at Kawela. Since none of the nom forms will ever be available, I agree one article makes sense. Would prefer one line in the table here too instead of listing them all. There is one outright typo in the NRIS now that you remind me I should add to your list. Thanks. W Nowicki ( talk) 15:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I never said it was urgent, but it has been like a year and still not resolved. I was just hoping that despite the fact that Wikipedia is not a mirror some zealot would not come along and revert my changes insisting on a separate article and infobox that reproduces the NRHP database exactly one-for-one. In the meanwhile I will continue the merged article on all the Kawela sites, with a table in it that summaries info from NRIS and the state registry, plus history books on the area. Still have a bit more work on it.
Joel, I think one problem is that many ancient sites do not have an "address" since there were no "mail" deliveries before there was a written language. :-) Kahaluu Bay is a case where there is a very popular tourist (and local) beach there, but the beach does not have an "address". They really need a "not applicable" entry in addition to the "restricted" one. Now in the case of Kawela, I found one site from Google maps, but that is hardly a well-kept secret. Let's just keep doing reasonable things. W Nowicki ( talk) 23:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
All- Just a quick question, concerning the use of Hansens Disease vs Leprosy. WHY do we use the term Hansens Disease, when in reality, many many more people will know the term Leprosy?? Coal town guy ( talk) 13:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
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