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This page should not be speedily deleted because the article has correct information compared to the old article, deleting it will cause misinformation to those who use Wikipedia to be educated about certain things in a Country. I corrected the title to the original translation from the Greek title, deleting that puts it back to the old title with the incorrect translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SymeonHellas ( talk • contribs) 12:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I have some concerns about where this party falls under the political spectrum. The party was founded by a former member of Greece's Neo-Nazi party. And he ( Ilias Kasidiaris) is described by his own Wikipedia page, as a "Fascist, Holocaust denier, and neo-Nazi". Furthermore, this party was apparently separated from Golden Dawn because Kasidiaris and Nikolaos Michaloliakos had a falling out about the branding and leadership of the party. And finally, the first goal that Greeks for the Fatherland want to start with is "Solving the Greek demographic problem by increasing birth-rates through tax exemptions, economic help and rewarding motherhood" which to me sounds a lot like Golden Dawn's plan to increase Greek birth rates witch was modeled by Nazi Germany. Since this is a relatively new party and hasn't had the chance to run in the Greek general elections. But from what I'm seeing this party looks a lot more far-right than right-wing, and I've seen that on other political parties that are a lot less radical than Greeks for the Fatherland they are labels as "right-wing to far-right" ( Sweden Democrats or National Rally).
I am proposing that we at least change their political spectrum to "right-wing to far-right" or just "far-right". -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 16:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Interesting... I didn't know that Putin wanted to increase birth rates. I saw an ad for a documentary about the families of the top members of Golden Dawn. [2] [3] In that documentary Eleni Zaroulia, Michaloliakos's wife gives her definition of "neo-Nazi" as being synonymous with nationalistic. I wonder of Kasidiaris might have the same definition of "neo-Nazi" as Zaroulia. Maybe, maybe not. When Kasidiaris had the argument with Michaloliakos, Kasidiaris was more of the side of wanting to change the branding of Golden Dawn and Michaloliakos wanted to not condemn the nazism and fascism if I've understood it correctly. Since the party is only a couple of months old it hasn't really got a chance. But still, Kasidiaris according to his Wikipedia page is still a Holocaust denier and a neo-Nazi. It is also worth noting that the party is also Anti-Turkism witch no other political party except for Golden Dawn was during their time in parliament. Which adds on to the relic of the passed Golden Dawn. There are plenty of sources that can tell you that Greeks for the Fatherland is a far-right party and others that will tell you that they are just right-wing.
Personally, to me "far-right" or "right-wing to far-right" seem the most correct way to describe this party. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 22:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
So? Would it be okay to use the " Right-wing to far-right" label? -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 17:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Very very true. A wiki page can change sense just if you change the language but it is just up to the reader to fact-check the subject and find out if it is true or not. I can take so öany examples of this happening but that's for maybe another time. The RSF's rapport on Greece's press freedom at a 65 [6] witch would but Greece in with countries such as Poland and Japan. And the statement that Prime Minister Mitsotakis is looking over the media seems to be somewhat true. I have found a couple of sources that call Greeks for the Fatherland "far-right" but since it is a pretty young party I can see why there aren't as many reports on this party as there would be with Golden Dawn. I can't comment on the "Greek Wikipedia" situation because I know nothing about that. A party can reject certain ideologies or political labels but they can still be called "far-right", "Nazis", "Communists" etc. e.g. Nordic Resistance Movement [7] is a pan- nordic neo-Nazi organization, they claim to reject Nazism and call themselves "National Socialists". Yet they believe in antisemitism and they believe in Jewish supremacy, [8] they believe in deporting every non-white person, they believe that there were no gas chambers in concentration camps, they believe in violence [9] [10] [11] , they believe in abolishing democracy, and they believe in the death penalty. They also were protesting in Greece along with Golden Dawn members. [12] The Party of the Swedes (SvP) were a neo-Nazi party in Sweden founded by former members of National Socialist Front (NSF). And housed many of the ideas that NSF had such as abolishing democracy, Deporting all non-whites from Sweden, [13] they were in the Alliance for Peace and Freedom European affiliation where Golden Dawn was a member, they wrote an open letter of support to Golden Dawn. Their last party leader Stefan Jacobsson was a member of the Swedish Resistance Movement that later merged into the Norwegian and Finnish resistance movement to form the Nordic Resistance Movement. Former party leader Daniel Höglund and deputy party leader Anders Ärleskog previously represented the National Socialist Front in its national leadership. The Swedish National Socialist described the formation of the Popular Front as follows: A new party has been born. The struggle for the Swedish people has always been going on, but only now is there a tool to win that battle. There is a long way to go, there is no doubt about that, but through the birth of the People's Front, one can anticipate the coming victory. [14] Despite this they never called themselves "Nazis" but nationalist (keep in mind Nationalists is not synonymous with Nazi) even though they had openly antisemitic policies and ran a "white's only" eugenics program just like Golden Dawn ran a "Greeks only" program when they were distributing food. [15] Those are just two examples of how potential hundreds of parties, organizations, groups that believe in Nazism but are too coward to admit it. Keep in mind that the nordic countries Here are a couple of articles about Greeks for the Fatherland and their political position: [16]/ [17], [18]. Feel free to send any articls claimg otherwise.-- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 12:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
You can still have parties like for example the Party of the Swedes or the Nordic Resistance Movement that quote "condemn" ideologies like Nazism, Fascism, and Metaxism but still be far-right. You can just take a look at Vox in Spain that is considered a far-right party. But if you're going to take Greeks for the Fatherland as an example, you have to base your claims on sources. The party is relatively new and as being founded by Kasidiaris. Kasidiaris was in Golden Dawn for I don't know how many years and left in May 2020 and created the Greeks for the Fatherland if I understood all of this correctly. But if you are apart of a political party and decide to shift from a Neo-Nazi party and then to create a party that is "Right-wing" doesn't sound that logical to me. Saying that there is no connection whatsoever to his past as being a member of Golden Dawn isn't really something I would believe in. You can take an example of far-right/neo-nazi political parties all over Europe, they all say that they are not Nazis but then praise Hitler and the Nazis in the 30s, look at The III. Path, National Democratic Party of Germany, [20] People's Party Our Slovakia, or any neo-nazi party they will claim threw a spokesperson that they are not nazis. It isn't because Kasidiaris says that Greeks for the Fatherland aren't far-right that they aren't. Base your research on sources that are credible with WPRSN and not just a source that comes out of nowhere and is clearly biased towards one side. I cited some the last time, you can go and check them out.-- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 20:28, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Greeks for the Fatherland do reject nazism as I've mentioned before but they split from Golden Dawn around 9 months ago. Greeks for the Fatherland might be far-right or not. Some news outlets do also use the term far-right and neo-nazi interchangeably. They use far-right as a sort of insult. Since you can definitely make the claim that they are far-right since they split off from GD but more is needed. Greeks for the Fatherland are not also of ID. Because in that case the KKE would be called far-left since Svenska Nyheter called them so, btw they are also part of IMCWP which SKP in Sweden, CCP, and North Korea's Workers' Party are also all members of to my knowledge they wouldn't be left-wing but far-left. Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 19:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I believe that you are wrong. Things anti-communism, anti-immigration, nationalism, national economy etc. are not necessarily far-right. Those ideologies might be used by far-right parties but a lot of them are used by regular right-wing parties. Parties that don't want socialism a.k.a. a European CCP/USSR. Opposition to immigration in the sense of having a well-regulated border and not have the floodgates open like what happened in 2015 and onwards. Parties like the British National Party do have anti-immigration and so dose UKIP but they are very different from one another, one wants to end the immigration of non-whites and have basically no immigration what so ever (horrible economical plan), and the other wants a regulated British border with useful work immigration (doctors, professors, etc.) and not close the border 100% as the BNP wants. A more center-right view would be the Swedish Moderate Party and the Swedish Social Democratic Party who have had in their 2018 party manifesto a better view on immigration, that doesn't make them far-right. Depending on the variant of nationalism (would it be ethno or just regular nationalism) it can be far-right or not. The want for nationalism isn't bad, since that would mean that you care about a nation, not about what they look like, and so on. But a nation needs to have some basic things like a common language and such. That doesn't seem the least bit controversial to me. Knowing that there is also Left-wing nationalism. Idk about national economy/economic nationalism. Now when it comes to the IMCWP, Greece/KKE were the organizers of the event! In 1998 they organized the first meeting of the IMCWP and it even took place in Greece. I don't know if NK's Workers' Party or the CCP attended the first meeting or not. But the fact that genocidal parties like the CCP, Workers' Party, and Communist Party of Cuba are allowed to attend alongside Greece shows a different side of the KKE, does it not? The KKE being involved in the resistance doesn't really mean something since communist only resistance during that time. People who were in anti-nazi resistance were a lot of the time people who weren't Nazis. Them fighting Nazis during WWII isn't really relevant. Also knowing that the KKE and its youth group blamed Capitalism on the George Floyd. [21] [22] That isn't that left-wing in my opinion. And how do I know that you are not lying to me? Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 12:29, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if Kasidiaris' party can only be characterized as far-right. Some instances of conservatism are surely mentioned somewhere in the party's manifesto. The argument I was making for it to be characterized as being far-right was that the party's leader is Ilias Kasidiaris, the former spokesman for GD, and he and his party can't just go around claiming only the right-wing label just after leaving GD. UKIP is also a party that has the "Right-wing to far-right" label on it, because if they are supposed to be in the same group then why not put something like (with right-wing factions) underneath the "far-right" part. Also wanting to have a restrictive immigration policy to not have the whole 2015-incident happen again isn't far-right the Five Star Movement has anti-immigration views and sat with social democratic parties, and with UKIP in their European Group. Far-right is when you go around policing stands looking for identity cards and if there aren't they then you smash up their stand. Far-right is wanting to ban certain opinions/political views, but from what I can see, the KKE which has the word "Communist" in its name is a communist party and can still be called far-left (I will get into that in a bit), but MeRA25 seem pretty left-wing, and there isn't that much doubt about that, and so is Syriza (a bit). The last two aren't far-left, but KKE kinda is. During the IMCWP, the KKE, like the CCP and WPK stand up with their fist in the hand just like the rest of the communists at the meeting, and they wave the same red flag. I can't find the original first members but if the KKE invited the WPK & CCP then wouldn't that be counterintuitive? Knowing also that the KKE sent its "deepest condolences" [23] to the so-called far-right state of North Korea since the idea of NK being far-right originates from Japan's fascist takeover of the Korean peninsula and its remains there. Although that is disputed if they are really far-right or not, just like China and capitalism, that is off-topic. If the IMCWP is just a convention for Communists to united and talk then fine, but that also does say something about the KKE and how they behave towards WPK and the CCP, but as I've said, that's off-topic. Now about the KKE blaming the death of George Floyd of capitalism is quite far-left, since they seem to have a quiet anti-capitalist ideology. The act was also committed by their youth group, which sometimes can be more radical than their mother party, i.e. Swedish political parties and their youth groups are often very different from one another as an example. But since the KKE haven't condemned their act they might agree with it. Also on a side note; not to be rude or anything, just friendly advice, I've seen that you make some grammatical mistakes and you might want to download "Grammarly", I've used it for a long time and it works wonders! -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 22:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I've heard a lot of stories about GD and its anti-democratic rhetoric and actions they did while in parliament and in their extra-parliamentary opposition. I agree with a lot of the things you say regarding those actions. I didn't call SYRIZA or MERA25 communist either, I just said that MERA25 is "pretty left-wing" since they are democratic-socialists. About immigration, I know that Greece took in a lot of immigrants from middle eastern countries before 2015 and that they did take in a lot of people legal or not. Also, note that 80% of illegal immigration passed through Greece and Turkey [24] sich might explain them hating Turkey so much, or it's just some historical stuff with the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople becoming Istanbul, etc. So them no liking immigration might have something to do with that. Now about the KKE, the side you are giving seems pretty logical to me and why it is acceptable to have a seemingly far-left party in parliament yet call it left-wing since they did things to fight Nazis. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 16:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I think I can recall GD use such rhetoric against Turks and "wanting to go back to the days of the Byzantine Empire". But also some rather normal things to be angry about, such as the Greek genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire which didn't happen that long ago if you compare it to something like the fall of Constantinople. They also blame the Turkish government for forcing mass migration on the EU/Greece which has been documented. The greek Wikipedia user you are mentioning is Αθλητικά, he created the page calling it right-wing and I've asked him to come to the Talk page but most of the time; he came, wrote his argument and left and edited the page and preferred to argue in the "View history" section. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 18:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Maybe they blame the Turkish people because they keep voting in Turkish politicians that they don't like, and their behavior towards things like the Armenian Genocide to which ErdoÄŸan and every other president have denied (I take the genocide as an example, I'm not too familiar with the Greek genocide and if Turkey recognizes it. I don't know what GD or Greeks for the Fatherland thinks about it i.e. do they recognize it.) About them burning the Turkish flag, a lot of people burn flags, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they are an-[incert country], the Ottoman flag also does look a bit like the Turkish flag. I agree with pretty much everything else you said. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 17:27, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 22:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
References
this article has been removed form the greek wikipidia that it is based form and it shoud be removed form here too https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7:%CE%88%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82_%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1_%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BD_%CE%A0%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1/%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%AE%CF%82 -- 79.167.132.16 ( talk) 14:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Can please someone make this page in greek? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrangeMadness1979 ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
The party is clearly labelled by academics and journalists as extreme-right, ultranationalist and neo-nazi. Just because Kasidiaris said he is no longer neo-nazi, history and his involvement with the criminal organisation of Golden Dawn cannot be erased. If you have any sources that prove otherwise, please provide them. Please stop POVing Czello. NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 12:37, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Are you sure "academics and journalists" have evidence for the 'neo-nazi' label?
You didn't answer my question - are you involved with Greek ΓΤΠor not?
Also for a new member you seem to know WP's policy quite well. Are you using other accounts? If yes, it's a conflict of interest and also see WP:Sockpuppetry. The fact that you're not answering my question raises more suspicion. But since you like to play with words, I will refer you again to my previous analysis. The party is tied to extremism and neo-nazism because of Kasidiaris' past. According to most reliable and academic sources, the only notable member and main face of the party is Kasidiaris. No one else is mentioned or highlighted by any reputable sources. Only Kasidiars. That's what the sources claim. NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 23:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
AkisAr-26 ( talk) 09:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
Still playing with words. One last question, based on your previous edits on Greek WP which are focused exclusively on the party and its leader [1], are you 100% sure you are not associated with the party in any way? NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 09:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
One of the sources used in this article is huffingtonpost which has received a lot of criticism for allegedly promoting Alternative medicine and anti-vaccination controversy. I mean, they had posted an article titled Swine Flu: Protect Yourself and Loved Ones. To quote the article:
And it's my understanding that many people who took regular enemas instead of vaccines during the 1918 pandemic made it out on the other side as well.
Also, some sources describe its reporting as "MIXED" in terms of how factual it is. Isn't there a more reliable source to back the claims of this article? AkisAr-26 ( talk) 07:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
To everyone reading this, I believe that AkisAr-26 is closely associated with the party and tries to mislead readers by distorting facts and promoting his heavy POV. To close this matter, here is the evidence of the party's ties to neo-Nazism:
1) The Spectator discusses the dangers of neo-Nazism in Greece after the fall of Golden Dawn, highlighting Greeks for the Fatherland as one of the reasons the danger has not gone away [1], 2) Centre for Analysis of the Radical Right (C-REX) sees Kasidiaris' admission of Golden Dawn's nazi ideology as a sign that the party attempting to disconnect itself from the ideology, but being unclear yet how this will be achieved [2], 3) In.gr describes Kasidiaris as a neo-Nazi politician who still embraces the ideology (worth mentioning that the author highligths how Kasidiaris still has the swastika tattoo on his arm!) [3]. For those interested in seeing that tattoo, please check it out here. 4) To Vima mentions that Kasidiaris and Greeks for the Fatherland are a neo-nazi threat to democracy and the parliament [4]. Finally, 5) NPR says that Greeks for the Fatherland shares similar ideology with Golden Dawn [5] The link has been established and it would be an act of vandalism to remove the clear connection between this relatively new party and Kasidiaris, the man who developed the neo-Nazi version of Golden Dawn. NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 13:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
To everyone reading this, I believe that AkisAr-26 is closely associated with the party and tries to mislead readers by distorting facts [...]
( Personal attack removed) NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 22:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
As per WP:PA baseless accusations have been removed as personal attacks. The COI was rejected by a mod [1].
Too many references distracts from the article. We don't need three and four references to support each and every factoid. HighKing ++ 13:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
What previous edits show is that user AkisAr-26 wants to disassociate the party from its Islamophobic character and ties to Golden Dawn and neo-Nazism. The removal of essential and reliable sources is also an attempt to sugarcoat Kasidiaris, who is the only well-known politician of the party and has associated himself as the voice of Greeks for the Fatherland. 79.66.222.112 ( talk) 10:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
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This page should not be speedily deleted because the article has correct information compared to the old article, deleting it will cause misinformation to those who use Wikipedia to be educated about certain things in a Country. I corrected the title to the original translation from the Greek title, deleting that puts it back to the old title with the incorrect translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SymeonHellas ( talk • contribs) 12:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I have some concerns about where this party falls under the political spectrum. The party was founded by a former member of Greece's Neo-Nazi party. And he ( Ilias Kasidiaris) is described by his own Wikipedia page, as a "Fascist, Holocaust denier, and neo-Nazi". Furthermore, this party was apparently separated from Golden Dawn because Kasidiaris and Nikolaos Michaloliakos had a falling out about the branding and leadership of the party. And finally, the first goal that Greeks for the Fatherland want to start with is "Solving the Greek demographic problem by increasing birth-rates through tax exemptions, economic help and rewarding motherhood" which to me sounds a lot like Golden Dawn's plan to increase Greek birth rates witch was modeled by Nazi Germany. Since this is a relatively new party and hasn't had the chance to run in the Greek general elections. But from what I'm seeing this party looks a lot more far-right than right-wing, and I've seen that on other political parties that are a lot less radical than Greeks for the Fatherland they are labels as "right-wing to far-right" ( Sweden Democrats or National Rally).
I am proposing that we at least change their political spectrum to "right-wing to far-right" or just "far-right". -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 16:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Interesting... I didn't know that Putin wanted to increase birth rates. I saw an ad for a documentary about the families of the top members of Golden Dawn. [2] [3] In that documentary Eleni Zaroulia, Michaloliakos's wife gives her definition of "neo-Nazi" as being synonymous with nationalistic. I wonder of Kasidiaris might have the same definition of "neo-Nazi" as Zaroulia. Maybe, maybe not. When Kasidiaris had the argument with Michaloliakos, Kasidiaris was more of the side of wanting to change the branding of Golden Dawn and Michaloliakos wanted to not condemn the nazism and fascism if I've understood it correctly. Since the party is only a couple of months old it hasn't really got a chance. But still, Kasidiaris according to his Wikipedia page is still a Holocaust denier and a neo-Nazi. It is also worth noting that the party is also Anti-Turkism witch no other political party except for Golden Dawn was during their time in parliament. Which adds on to the relic of the passed Golden Dawn. There are plenty of sources that can tell you that Greeks for the Fatherland is a far-right party and others that will tell you that they are just right-wing.
Personally, to me "far-right" or "right-wing to far-right" seem the most correct way to describe this party. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 22:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
So? Would it be okay to use the " Right-wing to far-right" label? -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 17:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Very very true. A wiki page can change sense just if you change the language but it is just up to the reader to fact-check the subject and find out if it is true or not. I can take so öany examples of this happening but that's for maybe another time. The RSF's rapport on Greece's press freedom at a 65 [6] witch would but Greece in with countries such as Poland and Japan. And the statement that Prime Minister Mitsotakis is looking over the media seems to be somewhat true. I have found a couple of sources that call Greeks for the Fatherland "far-right" but since it is a pretty young party I can see why there aren't as many reports on this party as there would be with Golden Dawn. I can't comment on the "Greek Wikipedia" situation because I know nothing about that. A party can reject certain ideologies or political labels but they can still be called "far-right", "Nazis", "Communists" etc. e.g. Nordic Resistance Movement [7] is a pan- nordic neo-Nazi organization, they claim to reject Nazism and call themselves "National Socialists". Yet they believe in antisemitism and they believe in Jewish supremacy, [8] they believe in deporting every non-white person, they believe that there were no gas chambers in concentration camps, they believe in violence [9] [10] [11] , they believe in abolishing democracy, and they believe in the death penalty. They also were protesting in Greece along with Golden Dawn members. [12] The Party of the Swedes (SvP) were a neo-Nazi party in Sweden founded by former members of National Socialist Front (NSF). And housed many of the ideas that NSF had such as abolishing democracy, Deporting all non-whites from Sweden, [13] they were in the Alliance for Peace and Freedom European affiliation where Golden Dawn was a member, they wrote an open letter of support to Golden Dawn. Their last party leader Stefan Jacobsson was a member of the Swedish Resistance Movement that later merged into the Norwegian and Finnish resistance movement to form the Nordic Resistance Movement. Former party leader Daniel Höglund and deputy party leader Anders Ärleskog previously represented the National Socialist Front in its national leadership. The Swedish National Socialist described the formation of the Popular Front as follows: A new party has been born. The struggle for the Swedish people has always been going on, but only now is there a tool to win that battle. There is a long way to go, there is no doubt about that, but through the birth of the People's Front, one can anticipate the coming victory. [14] Despite this they never called themselves "Nazis" but nationalist (keep in mind Nationalists is not synonymous with Nazi) even though they had openly antisemitic policies and ran a "white's only" eugenics program just like Golden Dawn ran a "Greeks only" program when they were distributing food. [15] Those are just two examples of how potential hundreds of parties, organizations, groups that believe in Nazism but are too coward to admit it. Keep in mind that the nordic countries Here are a couple of articles about Greeks for the Fatherland and their political position: [16]/ [17], [18]. Feel free to send any articls claimg otherwise.-- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 12:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
You can still have parties like for example the Party of the Swedes or the Nordic Resistance Movement that quote "condemn" ideologies like Nazism, Fascism, and Metaxism but still be far-right. You can just take a look at Vox in Spain that is considered a far-right party. But if you're going to take Greeks for the Fatherland as an example, you have to base your claims on sources. The party is relatively new and as being founded by Kasidiaris. Kasidiaris was in Golden Dawn for I don't know how many years and left in May 2020 and created the Greeks for the Fatherland if I understood all of this correctly. But if you are apart of a political party and decide to shift from a Neo-Nazi party and then to create a party that is "Right-wing" doesn't sound that logical to me. Saying that there is no connection whatsoever to his past as being a member of Golden Dawn isn't really something I would believe in. You can take an example of far-right/neo-nazi political parties all over Europe, they all say that they are not Nazis but then praise Hitler and the Nazis in the 30s, look at The III. Path, National Democratic Party of Germany, [20] People's Party Our Slovakia, or any neo-nazi party they will claim threw a spokesperson that they are not nazis. It isn't because Kasidiaris says that Greeks for the Fatherland aren't far-right that they aren't. Base your research on sources that are credible with WPRSN and not just a source that comes out of nowhere and is clearly biased towards one side. I cited some the last time, you can go and check them out.-- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 20:28, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Greeks for the Fatherland do reject nazism as I've mentioned before but they split from Golden Dawn around 9 months ago. Greeks for the Fatherland might be far-right or not. Some news outlets do also use the term far-right and neo-nazi interchangeably. They use far-right as a sort of insult. Since you can definitely make the claim that they are far-right since they split off from GD but more is needed. Greeks for the Fatherland are not also of ID. Because in that case the KKE would be called far-left since Svenska Nyheter called them so, btw they are also part of IMCWP which SKP in Sweden, CCP, and North Korea's Workers' Party are also all members of to my knowledge they wouldn't be left-wing but far-left. Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 19:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I believe that you are wrong. Things anti-communism, anti-immigration, nationalism, national economy etc. are not necessarily far-right. Those ideologies might be used by far-right parties but a lot of them are used by regular right-wing parties. Parties that don't want socialism a.k.a. a European CCP/USSR. Opposition to immigration in the sense of having a well-regulated border and not have the floodgates open like what happened in 2015 and onwards. Parties like the British National Party do have anti-immigration and so dose UKIP but they are very different from one another, one wants to end the immigration of non-whites and have basically no immigration what so ever (horrible economical plan), and the other wants a regulated British border with useful work immigration (doctors, professors, etc.) and not close the border 100% as the BNP wants. A more center-right view would be the Swedish Moderate Party and the Swedish Social Democratic Party who have had in their 2018 party manifesto a better view on immigration, that doesn't make them far-right. Depending on the variant of nationalism (would it be ethno or just regular nationalism) it can be far-right or not. The want for nationalism isn't bad, since that would mean that you care about a nation, not about what they look like, and so on. But a nation needs to have some basic things like a common language and such. That doesn't seem the least bit controversial to me. Knowing that there is also Left-wing nationalism. Idk about national economy/economic nationalism. Now when it comes to the IMCWP, Greece/KKE were the organizers of the event! In 1998 they organized the first meeting of the IMCWP and it even took place in Greece. I don't know if NK's Workers' Party or the CCP attended the first meeting or not. But the fact that genocidal parties like the CCP, Workers' Party, and Communist Party of Cuba are allowed to attend alongside Greece shows a different side of the KKE, does it not? The KKE being involved in the resistance doesn't really mean something since communist only resistance during that time. People who were in anti-nazi resistance were a lot of the time people who weren't Nazis. Them fighting Nazis during WWII isn't really relevant. Also knowing that the KKE and its youth group blamed Capitalism on the George Floyd. [21] [22] That isn't that left-wing in my opinion. And how do I know that you are not lying to me? Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 12:29, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if Kasidiaris' party can only be characterized as far-right. Some instances of conservatism are surely mentioned somewhere in the party's manifesto. The argument I was making for it to be characterized as being far-right was that the party's leader is Ilias Kasidiaris, the former spokesman for GD, and he and his party can't just go around claiming only the right-wing label just after leaving GD. UKIP is also a party that has the "Right-wing to far-right" label on it, because if they are supposed to be in the same group then why not put something like (with right-wing factions) underneath the "far-right" part. Also wanting to have a restrictive immigration policy to not have the whole 2015-incident happen again isn't far-right the Five Star Movement has anti-immigration views and sat with social democratic parties, and with UKIP in their European Group. Far-right is when you go around policing stands looking for identity cards and if there aren't they then you smash up their stand. Far-right is wanting to ban certain opinions/political views, but from what I can see, the KKE which has the word "Communist" in its name is a communist party and can still be called far-left (I will get into that in a bit), but MeRA25 seem pretty left-wing, and there isn't that much doubt about that, and so is Syriza (a bit). The last two aren't far-left, but KKE kinda is. During the IMCWP, the KKE, like the CCP and WPK stand up with their fist in the hand just like the rest of the communists at the meeting, and they wave the same red flag. I can't find the original first members but if the KKE invited the WPK & CCP then wouldn't that be counterintuitive? Knowing also that the KKE sent its "deepest condolences" [23] to the so-called far-right state of North Korea since the idea of NK being far-right originates from Japan's fascist takeover of the Korean peninsula and its remains there. Although that is disputed if they are really far-right or not, just like China and capitalism, that is off-topic. If the IMCWP is just a convention for Communists to united and talk then fine, but that also does say something about the KKE and how they behave towards WPK and the CCP, but as I've said, that's off-topic. Now about the KKE blaming the death of George Floyd of capitalism is quite far-left, since they seem to have a quiet anti-capitalist ideology. The act was also committed by their youth group, which sometimes can be more radical than their mother party, i.e. Swedish political parties and their youth groups are often very different from one another as an example. But since the KKE haven't condemned their act they might agree with it. Also on a side note; not to be rude or anything, just friendly advice, I've seen that you make some grammatical mistakes and you might want to download "Grammarly", I've used it for a long time and it works wonders! -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 22:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I've heard a lot of stories about GD and its anti-democratic rhetoric and actions they did while in parliament and in their extra-parliamentary opposition. I agree with a lot of the things you say regarding those actions. I didn't call SYRIZA or MERA25 communist either, I just said that MERA25 is "pretty left-wing" since they are democratic-socialists. About immigration, I know that Greece took in a lot of immigrants from middle eastern countries before 2015 and that they did take in a lot of people legal or not. Also, note that 80% of illegal immigration passed through Greece and Turkey [24] sich might explain them hating Turkey so much, or it's just some historical stuff with the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople becoming Istanbul, etc. So them no liking immigration might have something to do with that. Now about the KKE, the side you are giving seems pretty logical to me and why it is acceptable to have a seemingly far-left party in parliament yet call it left-wing since they did things to fight Nazis. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 16:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I think I can recall GD use such rhetoric against Turks and "wanting to go back to the days of the Byzantine Empire". But also some rather normal things to be angry about, such as the Greek genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire which didn't happen that long ago if you compare it to something like the fall of Constantinople. They also blame the Turkish government for forcing mass migration on the EU/Greece which has been documented. The greek Wikipedia user you are mentioning is Αθλητικά, he created the page calling it right-wing and I've asked him to come to the Talk page but most of the time; he came, wrote his argument and left and edited the page and preferred to argue in the "View history" section. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 18:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Maybe they blame the Turkish people because they keep voting in Turkish politicians that they don't like, and their behavior towards things like the Armenian Genocide to which ErdoÄŸan and every other president have denied (I take the genocide as an example, I'm not too familiar with the Greek genocide and if Turkey recognizes it. I don't know what GD or Greeks for the Fatherland thinks about it i.e. do they recognize it.) About them burning the Turkish flag, a lot of people burn flags, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they are an-[incert country], the Ottoman flag also does look a bit like the Turkish flag. I agree with pretty much everything else you said. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 17:27, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes. -- Los Perros pueden Cocinar ( talk) 22:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
References
this article has been removed form the greek wikipidia that it is based form and it shoud be removed form here too https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7:%CE%88%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82_%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1_%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BD_%CE%A0%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1/%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%AE%CF%82 -- 79.167.132.16 ( talk) 14:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Can please someone make this page in greek? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrangeMadness1979 ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
The party is clearly labelled by academics and journalists as extreme-right, ultranationalist and neo-nazi. Just because Kasidiaris said he is no longer neo-nazi, history and his involvement with the criminal organisation of Golden Dawn cannot be erased. If you have any sources that prove otherwise, please provide them. Please stop POVing Czello. NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 12:37, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Are you sure "academics and journalists" have evidence for the 'neo-nazi' label?
You didn't answer my question - are you involved with Greek ΓΤΠor not?
Also for a new member you seem to know WP's policy quite well. Are you using other accounts? If yes, it's a conflict of interest and also see WP:Sockpuppetry. The fact that you're not answering my question raises more suspicion. But since you like to play with words, I will refer you again to my previous analysis. The party is tied to extremism and neo-nazism because of Kasidiaris' past. According to most reliable and academic sources, the only notable member and main face of the party is Kasidiaris. No one else is mentioned or highlighted by any reputable sources. Only Kasidiars. That's what the sources claim. NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 23:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
AkisAr-26 ( talk) 09:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
Still playing with words. One last question, based on your previous edits on Greek WP which are focused exclusively on the party and its leader [1], are you 100% sure you are not associated with the party in any way? NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 09:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
One of the sources used in this article is huffingtonpost which has received a lot of criticism for allegedly promoting Alternative medicine and anti-vaccination controversy. I mean, they had posted an article titled Swine Flu: Protect Yourself and Loved Ones. To quote the article:
And it's my understanding that many people who took regular enemas instead of vaccines during the 1918 pandemic made it out on the other side as well.
Also, some sources describe its reporting as "MIXED" in terms of how factual it is. Isn't there a more reliable source to back the claims of this article? AkisAr-26 ( talk) 07:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
To everyone reading this, I believe that AkisAr-26 is closely associated with the party and tries to mislead readers by distorting facts and promoting his heavy POV. To close this matter, here is the evidence of the party's ties to neo-Nazism:
1) The Spectator discusses the dangers of neo-Nazism in Greece after the fall of Golden Dawn, highlighting Greeks for the Fatherland as one of the reasons the danger has not gone away [1], 2) Centre for Analysis of the Radical Right (C-REX) sees Kasidiaris' admission of Golden Dawn's nazi ideology as a sign that the party attempting to disconnect itself from the ideology, but being unclear yet how this will be achieved [2], 3) In.gr describes Kasidiaris as a neo-Nazi politician who still embraces the ideology (worth mentioning that the author highligths how Kasidiaris still has the swastika tattoo on his arm!) [3]. For those interested in seeing that tattoo, please check it out here. 4) To Vima mentions that Kasidiaris and Greeks for the Fatherland are a neo-nazi threat to democracy and the parliament [4]. Finally, 5) NPR says that Greeks for the Fatherland shares similar ideology with Golden Dawn [5] The link has been established and it would be an act of vandalism to remove the clear connection between this relatively new party and Kasidiaris, the man who developed the neo-Nazi version of Golden Dawn. NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 13:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
To everyone reading this, I believe that AkisAr-26 is closely associated with the party and tries to mislead readers by distorting facts [...]
( Personal attack removed) NikolaosFanaris ( talk) 22:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
As per WP:PA baseless accusations have been removed as personal attacks. The COI was rejected by a mod [1].
Too many references distracts from the article. We don't need three and four references to support each and every factoid. HighKing ++ 13:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
What previous edits show is that user AkisAr-26 wants to disassociate the party from its Islamophobic character and ties to Golden Dawn and neo-Nazism. The removal of essential and reliable sources is also an attempt to sugarcoat Kasidiaris, who is the only well-known politician of the party and has associated himself as the voice of Greeks for the Fatherland. 79.66.222.112 ( talk) 10:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)