![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 22 January 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was Move to Death of Nataline Sarkisyan. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 21 December 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why has all the information related to Nataline's death been purged from the page? The timeframe surrounding the actual death is very significant towards this article. I am not familiar enough with editing to find the exact revision in which it was removed, though I believe a ton of other material was also altered in that particular edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.134.69 ( talk) 20:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand this situation at all. Pundits all over the U.S. have been declaiming that illegal immigrants get free health care because they walk in and are given treatment by doctors who feel it is unethical to withhold it. Supposedly the reason why a few minutes at the hospital can cost $1000 is that there are several patients not paying for every one that does. Yet in this article we're told that mercenary doctors put their ears back and refused to move. I'm reminded of a comment by Pliny the Elder in his Natural History: "...I shall not even attempt to denounce their avarice, the rapacious haggling while their patients' fate hangs in the balance." It is as if two thousand years of civilization (exploitable or not) have been stripped away, and I don't understand how or when.
I also don't understand why the insurance company per se is regarded as the killer here. No doubt they did the wrong thing - but how is their decision to withhold immediate payment worse than the hospital's or the doctor's decision not to provide treatment? Especially when you consider that this complication arose from the previous medical treatment, that the physicians knew it was not an experimental procedure, and that the patient's life was truly in dire peril.
I also don't understand why someplace like St. Jude's Children's Hospital was not a possible resolution. I had always imagined that they were not the only hospital in the U.S. willing to take cases regardless of ability to pay, either. Now I find myself wondering what the situation really is. And if the $1000 emergency room visits aren't going to needy patients... where is all that money going? Wnt ( talk) 03:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
They let her die because there was a limited chance of survival (according to USA today) and the cost vs. possible success was deemed not worth it. It could be argued that in a world of limited resources we, as a people, will have to make tough decisions regarding the allocation of those resources. The company made a prudent decision based on the facts in simple. It was a calculation, we can not save everyone at any cost. At some point we must decide when a cause is lost and that it is not prudent to continue. I see no issue with the family paying the required down-payment to make this happen if they disagreed. The family of course disagrees.
I tried to clean this up a bit to make it a more NPOV comment and added some citations, including the CIGNA HealthCare coverage position (for balance.) Please feel free to correct or update anything that you can't find in my citations or the other listed resources. Even from the comments I have read on the news stories, there is a lot of conflicted opinions.
I did see a lot of comments asking why the physicians would not perform the surgery without an absolute guarantee of payment by CIGNA HealthCare, but could not find a reliable source to cite for this. As this topic is likely to be very heated, I definitely did not want to add anything that can't be 100% sourced. Slavlin ( talk) 03:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an important addition to the story and the state of Insurance in America:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/cigna-employee-flips-off_n_314189.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.189.253.43 ( talk) 04:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Someone whose entire edit history consists of this page and the Cigna page has removed a significant amount of content and over half the external links (mostly ones unsympathetic to Cigna's stance on the issue) without explanation; reverting. 146.201.173.67 ( talk) 20:28, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
While her death & the circumstances surrounding it have gotten plenty of media attention in the past few years, will her fame last, or will it fizzle out before this decade is over? I wonder this because a former cheerleading coach named Carlie Christine Beck got media attention last year when she was fired for posing nude for Playboy, but the attention soon died out. If Carlie doesn't meet the notability criteria, Nataline might not either; what's the difference? I'm gonna add the Notability tag to the top of this page. Roxtar 20:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I guess I am not too keyed into what happens on wikipedia, since I only now found out that this article had been marked for deletion.
I think this case is notable for several reasons. Certainly, in California it was a major news item, and involved the California Nurses Association campaigning against Cigna. There was also the automatic assumption of Cigna's culpability, when in fact their culpability was not obvious, illustrating the complexities of our insurance system. It was also notable as a case where there was some discussion of the heroic efforts to save this young girl, and discussion of the medical ethics of these efforts. Finally, Ms. Sarkisyan's family subsequently appeared with Presidential candidate John Edwards at his campaign rallies. National healthcare was a major plank of his platform. Hanuman ( talk) 03:55, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Niteshift36 ( talk) ; the case is notable as a landmark for health care and medical ethics; however, the person is not notable, and a biography about the person is not expected. 315 million people in the US, everyone has a story; it is ambiguous to have a person's biography appear as the article when it is the case that is noteworthy not the person, and nothing in the article constitutes more than the case details anyway. I see that the article was once marked for deletion, and there was only a VERY brief discussion regarding the review and split decision. I agree this should probably be reviewed again for deletion, and support at least a merge and redirect. Awolnetdiva ( talk) 08:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 22 January 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was Move to Death of Nataline Sarkisyan. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 21 December 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why has all the information related to Nataline's death been purged from the page? The timeframe surrounding the actual death is very significant towards this article. I am not familiar enough with editing to find the exact revision in which it was removed, though I believe a ton of other material was also altered in that particular edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.134.69 ( talk) 20:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand this situation at all. Pundits all over the U.S. have been declaiming that illegal immigrants get free health care because they walk in and are given treatment by doctors who feel it is unethical to withhold it. Supposedly the reason why a few minutes at the hospital can cost $1000 is that there are several patients not paying for every one that does. Yet in this article we're told that mercenary doctors put their ears back and refused to move. I'm reminded of a comment by Pliny the Elder in his Natural History: "...I shall not even attempt to denounce their avarice, the rapacious haggling while their patients' fate hangs in the balance." It is as if two thousand years of civilization (exploitable or not) have been stripped away, and I don't understand how or when.
I also don't understand why the insurance company per se is regarded as the killer here. No doubt they did the wrong thing - but how is their decision to withhold immediate payment worse than the hospital's or the doctor's decision not to provide treatment? Especially when you consider that this complication arose from the previous medical treatment, that the physicians knew it was not an experimental procedure, and that the patient's life was truly in dire peril.
I also don't understand why someplace like St. Jude's Children's Hospital was not a possible resolution. I had always imagined that they were not the only hospital in the U.S. willing to take cases regardless of ability to pay, either. Now I find myself wondering what the situation really is. And if the $1000 emergency room visits aren't going to needy patients... where is all that money going? Wnt ( talk) 03:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
They let her die because there was a limited chance of survival (according to USA today) and the cost vs. possible success was deemed not worth it. It could be argued that in a world of limited resources we, as a people, will have to make tough decisions regarding the allocation of those resources. The company made a prudent decision based on the facts in simple. It was a calculation, we can not save everyone at any cost. At some point we must decide when a cause is lost and that it is not prudent to continue. I see no issue with the family paying the required down-payment to make this happen if they disagreed. The family of course disagrees.
I tried to clean this up a bit to make it a more NPOV comment and added some citations, including the CIGNA HealthCare coverage position (for balance.) Please feel free to correct or update anything that you can't find in my citations or the other listed resources. Even from the comments I have read on the news stories, there is a lot of conflicted opinions.
I did see a lot of comments asking why the physicians would not perform the surgery without an absolute guarantee of payment by CIGNA HealthCare, but could not find a reliable source to cite for this. As this topic is likely to be very heated, I definitely did not want to add anything that can't be 100% sourced. Slavlin ( talk) 03:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an important addition to the story and the state of Insurance in America:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/cigna-employee-flips-off_n_314189.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.189.253.43 ( talk) 04:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Someone whose entire edit history consists of this page and the Cigna page has removed a significant amount of content and over half the external links (mostly ones unsympathetic to Cigna's stance on the issue) without explanation; reverting. 146.201.173.67 ( talk) 20:28, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
While her death & the circumstances surrounding it have gotten plenty of media attention in the past few years, will her fame last, or will it fizzle out before this decade is over? I wonder this because a former cheerleading coach named Carlie Christine Beck got media attention last year when she was fired for posing nude for Playboy, but the attention soon died out. If Carlie doesn't meet the notability criteria, Nataline might not either; what's the difference? I'm gonna add the Notability tag to the top of this page. Roxtar 20:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I guess I am not too keyed into what happens on wikipedia, since I only now found out that this article had been marked for deletion.
I think this case is notable for several reasons. Certainly, in California it was a major news item, and involved the California Nurses Association campaigning against Cigna. There was also the automatic assumption of Cigna's culpability, when in fact their culpability was not obvious, illustrating the complexities of our insurance system. It was also notable as a case where there was some discussion of the heroic efforts to save this young girl, and discussion of the medical ethics of these efforts. Finally, Ms. Sarkisyan's family subsequently appeared with Presidential candidate John Edwards at his campaign rallies. National healthcare was a major plank of his platform. Hanuman ( talk) 03:55, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Niteshift36 ( talk) ; the case is notable as a landmark for health care and medical ethics; however, the person is not notable, and a biography about the person is not expected. 315 million people in the US, everyone has a story; it is ambiguous to have a person's biography appear as the article when it is the case that is noteworthy not the person, and nothing in the article constitutes more than the case details anyway. I see that the article was once marked for deletion, and there was only a VERY brief discussion regarding the review and split decision. I agree this should probably be reviewed again for deletion, and support at least a merge and redirect. Awolnetdiva ( talk) 08:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)