I don't think this is correct. The status of Jerusalem is disputed. The 1947 UN Partition Plan would have had Jerusalem placed under international administration. Most countries don't have their embassies in Jerusalem, and don't recognise it as the capital city of Israel, which is of course Tel Aviv. The Israeli occupation of Jerusalen is not legal. I am going to remove this. Alun 09:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Please if you are going to make reversions, give your reasons. Stating that Jerusalem is in Israel is a breach of Wikipedia's neutral point of view (NPOV) policy. It is contentious to claim that Jerusalem is in Israel. it is just geographically accurate to claim it is in the Levant. you can change it to the middle east if you would prefer, though some say near east instead, which is why I didn't use it as a term. Alun 05:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The Jerusalem article doesn't even claim that Jerusalem is in Israel. Alun 11:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a bit of hyper-corrective NPOV... Her birth certificate probably says Israel. She's an Israeli citizen by birth. Israel does control Jerusalem, whether or not countries believe the control is legitimate. It's the capital of Israel, whether or not countries believe it's legitimate. Even if you don't think that the control is legitimate, it does not mean that they don't still control it nonetheless. If you really want to remove Israel, PLEASE don't replace it with 'The Levant'; keep it just as Jerusalem, maybe. That really just makes it look ridiculous. Furthermore, are there any precedents for replacing 'Jerusalem, Israel' with something else? -- patton1138 13:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
It's a little silly to remove "Israel", especially since pretty much every single other article on Portman says she was born in Jerusalem, Israel, starting from the IMDB ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000204/) and onwards in any other place you look. And I agree on her birth certificate, etc. it would clearly say this, and this is the way it's been written ever since the creation of the Natalie Portman Wiki article. Right now the fact is (and especially at the time when Portman was born), Israel controls Jerusalem and Jerusalem is within Israeli borders, therefore, she was born in Israel. In fact, it would be adopting the POV of whoever thinks Jerusalem isn't in Israel to replace her birthplace, since the situation is right now that Israel doesn't just THINK (i.e. opinion/POV) it should control and has rights to Jerusalem, but it actually does (fact). It's like listing everyone who was born there before 1948 under "British Mandate", some may not have liked that situation but it was still a fact that the British owned the place and "British Mandate" was the official name for it.
End of story. -24.141.149.226
Sovereignty mentions this: "For instance, in theory, both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China considered themselves sovereign governments over the whole territory of mainland China and Taiwan. Though some foreign governments recognize the Republic of China as the valid state, most now recognize the People's Republic of China. However, de facto, the People's Republic of China exercises sovereign power over mainland China, while the Republic of China exercises sovereign power over Taiwan. Since ambassadors are only exchanged between sovereign high parties, the countries recognizing the People's Republic often entertain de facto but not de jure diplomatic relationships with Taiwan by maintaining 'offices of representation', such as the American Institute in Taiwan, rather than embassies there."
No, occupying Iraq does not make America sovereign over it, however obviously there is a huge difference between the Iraqi situation and the situation in Israel. America's intention is not to colonize/occupy/rule over Iraq, it is to assist them in rebuilding their own country - one which would not be under the USA's control. In Israel's case, it has not only occupied it (i.e. military), but inhabited it - they consider it a legal part of their country and their territory, which is certainly not the same as the US/Iraq situation, a little silly to compare the two.
You said occupation wasn't the same as sovereignty, well if you look up above sovereignty is not exactly a clear-cut subject in many areas of the world. The sovereignty article clearly states that some world powers recognize one government of China while others recognize another - Israel's situation is a lot simpler since there is at the time really only one government that can actually claim sovereignty (and does) over Jerusalem, simply because they inhabit/occupy/rule/have sovereignty over it and they are the only authority that does so (and I mean physically speaking), whether the U.N. recognizes that authority or not. It's the same situation as when Russia occupied several countries, etc. and called them the "Soviet Union", many did not recognize their authority or sovereignty over it but the fact is the name was still "Soviet Union". Many may not have liked it or agreed with it but it does not change its existence.
And in Wikipedia's map of Israel ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Is-map.PNG) Jerusalem is clearly still located within its borders (although the West Bank is not), thus making it a part of the country geographically. There is nothing called "The Levant" on this map. -24.141.149.226
The UN recognises the People's Republic of China, it does not recognise Israel's right to Jerusalem. The UN is the highest international authority, certainly higher than your oppinion, or even that of the Israeli government's.
Excellent. I hope you like the change I made, it fits the wording on your last sentence. "The Levant" is such an ungainly name, reminds me of that old joke about "THE Shocker". Anyway... -24.141.149.226
One final point to clarify, de facto is not the same as legitimate. If you own a car and I take it illegally (steal it), then I have de facto possession, whereas you have de jour possession. Even if I possess the car for 35 years, I still will not possess it legally. The same applies to Israel's occupation of Jerusalem. It will have legal possession only when final status agreement is reached. You are probably right about the Levant, maybe it was a mistake to use it. Alun 05:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant about your edit. Someone had changed it. Maybe it's somewhat irrelevant to the article to say that Israel has illegal sovreignty over Jerusalem. Why not just leave it as simply Jerusalem. I can see no rationale for including your change. Alun 10:03, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, I won't change it back to Israel for now. But still, I have to just point out the car analogy is not exactly appropriate - I mean, the point is that "no one" really owned Jerusalem in the way I would own (and legally buy) a car. It'd be more like one car that has had many owners being discarded by the latest owner, and a bunch of former owners all claiming ownership of it, however only one owner actually physically claimed it, whether rightfully or not.
As for the U.N. being more legitimate than "my opinion", well, I think it really shouldn't be about "opinions", since at the end both what I say and what the U.N. says are "opinions" and not facts. The U.N. didn't approve of the U.S. going into war in Iraq, yet it is still a fact that they indeed go to war in Iraq and that's what has to be reported as fact. The U.N. doesn't approve of Israeli ownership of Jeruslaem, but it is still a fact that presently they "own" it, or at least enforce their ownership and inhabitance there, and are the only authority that can physically do that.
On March 10 (2003), French president Jacques Chirac declared that France would veto any resolution which would automatically lead to war. This caused open displays of dismay by the US and British governments. The drive by Britain for unanimity and a "second resolution" was effectively abandoned at that point. from UN Security Council Resolution 1441.
But I guess this has nothing to do with Natalie Portman... -24.141.149.226
I wasn't hoping to start a discussion but rather to finish it. What I meant by "former owner discarding" was the British Empire's decision to leave that area (i.e. the Balfour Declaration), not the Ottoman Empire.
But I'd like to say you shouldn't make assumptions about people based on little evidence - I never said I was in support of the Iraq war (in fact quite the opposite, and also in fact whether I do or do not support it is irrelevant since my political views are not under discussion here. And since you like sending me to various Wikipedia policy pages, why don't I send you to one Wikipedia:No personal attacks, i.e. "Comment on content, not on the contributor"). Anyway, I simply used the Iraq War as a good example of something that was done by a country without U.N. authority or authorization but obviously still has to be reported as fact, much like the control of Jerusalem by Israel. The U.N. may well have "the power to make internationally binding decisions", but my exact point was that many countries don't care and still do whatever they want, and what they do still has to be reported as factual reality, whether the U.N. approves or not. And personally I sincerely doubt that "the reason for the Invasion" was Saddam's breach of U.N. resolutions - I would hardly think that was what Bush administration was thinking about. -24.141.149.226
There is no dispute over Israeli ownership of West Jerusalem, which is, I'm sure, where Natalie Portman was born. The dispute is about East Jerusalem. Jayjg (talk) 05:42, 18 September 2005 (UTC)~
Regardless of the meandering of the above discussion, Jerusalem is not in Israel. The article should read she "was born in Jerusalem". Most everyone knows where Jerusalem is, and if they don't they shouldn't be looking for the answer inside an article on Natalie Portman. If there are no objections I will make the change. Notice I will not write "Jerusalem, Palestine" or "Jerusalem, Levant", rather simply and succinctly "Jerusalem". I think the folks reading the article can understand contextually that "Jerusalem" refers to the city whose status is currently disputed. Thedukeofno 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem is in fact divided into sereval sections...is it not? Therefore, Natalie Portman is Israeli so was born in ISRAELI Jerusalem. Thus, the article should read "Jerusalem, Israel"! -- Yayacaca 03:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia notes of Jerusalem: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, although this designation and Israel's annexation of the eastern portion of the city are matters of international dispute." That said, I would assume Natalie was born in western Jerusalem, which is most definitely under Israeli control and can be considered part of Israel.
68.187.192.107
14:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and facts should be presented. Where facts are not presented, nothing should be assumed. I don't know for fact that she was born in west Jerusalem. If so, it should say she was born in "western Jerusalem, Israel.". If she wasn't born in western Jerusalem, it should say she was born in "Jerusalem". That is the only way the article can be factually accurate. As her exact place of birth (east or west Jerusalem) has not been noted in this article, nothing can be assumed.
Please fully read the above thread of discussion; I believe you will agree that just plain "Jerusalem" is the best compromise. I believe we should keep it at "Jerusalem" until the east/west issue has been determined.
Thedukeofno 11:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem is physically in Israel. Not only that, but part of it belongs to Israel under all international law. Thus, Natalie was born in Israeli Jerusalem. Yayacaca 03:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Yaya, your logic is faulty. If two Swedish citizens have a child in East Orange, New Jersey, the child is Swedish. However, East Orange, New Jersey does not then become part of Sweden.
Only west Jersusalem is recognized by the international community to be part of Israel (please note the spelling of Israel). If she was born in the western part, "Jerusalem, Israel" is correct. If she was born in the eastern section, "Jerusalem" is correct.
I don't want this to turn into a revert war. If you'd like, we can bring it to arbitration.
Thedukeofno 06:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Natalie Portman was born in
Hadassah hospital.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Culture/5233.htm is an article in the Israelinsider that states that she was born in that hospital. It is located in Western Jerusalem which is under Israeli jurisdiction. As Thedukeofno pointed out, Western Jerusalem is Israeli. Thus, Natalie Portman was born in ISRAEL. I hope that this issue can finally come to rest!
Yayacaca 03:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's how we settle this debate, and in fact every other debate on Wikipedia. If we have a large number of reliable sources on Natalie Portman that state that she was born in "Jerusalem, Israel", then we can list her as being born in Jerusalem, Israel. If we don't, not. Wikipedia reports what other sources have said - and if they've reported that Portman was born in Israel, so can we and so we should. It's as simple as that. Now let's look at what the sources say Mad Jack 08:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's how we settle this debate, and in fact every other debate on Wikipedia. If we have a large number of reliable sources on Natalie Portman that state that she was born in "Jerusalem, Israel", then we can list her as being born in Jerusalem, Israel. If we don't, not. Wikipedia reports what other sources have said - and if they've reported that Portman was born in Israel, so can we and so we should. It's as simple as that. Now let's look at what the sources say Mad Jack 08:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, it's very simple. If we have sources that say Portman was born in Israel, then we can say that. If we also have sources that say that Portman wasn't born in Israel, then we have a debate/problem/etc., but I haven't any any sources like that so far. It is irrelevant if you think that all the sources made a "mistake", because that's your opinion. I haven't seen any sources so far that explicitly contested Portman's birth place, so I see no reason not to include it, and I shortly will, citing several sources to support it. Mad Jack 18:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Way to remove the birth place, leave my citations, and add a citation of your own that has nothing to do with Portman. Mad Jack 19:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, "erroneous information" is your or whoever's opinion. You need a reliable source that actually says that Portman wasn't born in Israel, i.e. that the articles are in error when they say so. This article now claims exactly what almost every other source on Portman has said, that she was born in Jerusalem, Israel. It claims nothing less or more than that. It's irrelevant what you think of the people who wrote the stuff on Portman. It is only relevant that they wrote it, and that they are a reliable source for a Portman article. Wikipedia now reflects the majority of sources on Portman (and yes, I'm sure there are some sources that say she was born in "Jerusalem", just as some sources would say "Los Angeles" and not mention California or the US. But if you want to contest what the article now says, you need a reliable source that actually says Portman was not born in Israel.) Mad Jack 19:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. Again, this article says "Natalie Portman was born in Jerusalem, Israel". This exact statement is backed up by sources which are definitely reliable to Natalie Portman, including the New York Times. These sources have expertise in the field of Natalie Portman, and fulfill the reliable sources criteria when it comes to Natallie Portman, which is all they need to be to be used in this article (although they would be unacceptable in an article about Jerusalem). That's really all there is to it, unless there are equally reliable sources about Natalie Portman that say different. Also, please never again start sentences with "you", because personal accusations, etc. are not acceptable. We are here to discuss what reliable sources say on the subject of Natalie Portman, not what they say on other subjects, or what you or I think about this all. Mad Jack 21:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is correct. The status of Jerusalem is disputed. The 1947 UN Partition Plan would have had Jerusalem placed under international administration. Most countries don't have their embassies in Jerusalem, and don't recognise it as the capital city of Israel, which is of course Tel Aviv. The Israeli occupation of Jerusalen is not legal. I am going to remove this. Alun 09:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Please if you are going to make reversions, give your reasons. Stating that Jerusalem is in Israel is a breach of Wikipedia's neutral point of view (NPOV) policy. It is contentious to claim that Jerusalem is in Israel. it is just geographically accurate to claim it is in the Levant. you can change it to the middle east if you would prefer, though some say near east instead, which is why I didn't use it as a term. Alun 05:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The Jerusalem article doesn't even claim that Jerusalem is in Israel. Alun 11:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a bit of hyper-corrective NPOV... Her birth certificate probably says Israel. She's an Israeli citizen by birth. Israel does control Jerusalem, whether or not countries believe the control is legitimate. It's the capital of Israel, whether or not countries believe it's legitimate. Even if you don't think that the control is legitimate, it does not mean that they don't still control it nonetheless. If you really want to remove Israel, PLEASE don't replace it with 'The Levant'; keep it just as Jerusalem, maybe. That really just makes it look ridiculous. Furthermore, are there any precedents for replacing 'Jerusalem, Israel' with something else? -- patton1138 13:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
It's a little silly to remove "Israel", especially since pretty much every single other article on Portman says she was born in Jerusalem, Israel, starting from the IMDB ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000204/) and onwards in any other place you look. And I agree on her birth certificate, etc. it would clearly say this, and this is the way it's been written ever since the creation of the Natalie Portman Wiki article. Right now the fact is (and especially at the time when Portman was born), Israel controls Jerusalem and Jerusalem is within Israeli borders, therefore, she was born in Israel. In fact, it would be adopting the POV of whoever thinks Jerusalem isn't in Israel to replace her birthplace, since the situation is right now that Israel doesn't just THINK (i.e. opinion/POV) it should control and has rights to Jerusalem, but it actually does (fact). It's like listing everyone who was born there before 1948 under "British Mandate", some may not have liked that situation but it was still a fact that the British owned the place and "British Mandate" was the official name for it.
End of story. -24.141.149.226
Sovereignty mentions this: "For instance, in theory, both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China considered themselves sovereign governments over the whole territory of mainland China and Taiwan. Though some foreign governments recognize the Republic of China as the valid state, most now recognize the People's Republic of China. However, de facto, the People's Republic of China exercises sovereign power over mainland China, while the Republic of China exercises sovereign power over Taiwan. Since ambassadors are only exchanged between sovereign high parties, the countries recognizing the People's Republic often entertain de facto but not de jure diplomatic relationships with Taiwan by maintaining 'offices of representation', such as the American Institute in Taiwan, rather than embassies there."
No, occupying Iraq does not make America sovereign over it, however obviously there is a huge difference between the Iraqi situation and the situation in Israel. America's intention is not to colonize/occupy/rule over Iraq, it is to assist them in rebuilding their own country - one which would not be under the USA's control. In Israel's case, it has not only occupied it (i.e. military), but inhabited it - they consider it a legal part of their country and their territory, which is certainly not the same as the US/Iraq situation, a little silly to compare the two.
You said occupation wasn't the same as sovereignty, well if you look up above sovereignty is not exactly a clear-cut subject in many areas of the world. The sovereignty article clearly states that some world powers recognize one government of China while others recognize another - Israel's situation is a lot simpler since there is at the time really only one government that can actually claim sovereignty (and does) over Jerusalem, simply because they inhabit/occupy/rule/have sovereignty over it and they are the only authority that does so (and I mean physically speaking), whether the U.N. recognizes that authority or not. It's the same situation as when Russia occupied several countries, etc. and called them the "Soviet Union", many did not recognize their authority or sovereignty over it but the fact is the name was still "Soviet Union". Many may not have liked it or agreed with it but it does not change its existence.
And in Wikipedia's map of Israel ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Is-map.PNG) Jerusalem is clearly still located within its borders (although the West Bank is not), thus making it a part of the country geographically. There is nothing called "The Levant" on this map. -24.141.149.226
The UN recognises the People's Republic of China, it does not recognise Israel's right to Jerusalem. The UN is the highest international authority, certainly higher than your oppinion, or even that of the Israeli government's.
Excellent. I hope you like the change I made, it fits the wording on your last sentence. "The Levant" is such an ungainly name, reminds me of that old joke about "THE Shocker". Anyway... -24.141.149.226
One final point to clarify, de facto is not the same as legitimate. If you own a car and I take it illegally (steal it), then I have de facto possession, whereas you have de jour possession. Even if I possess the car for 35 years, I still will not possess it legally. The same applies to Israel's occupation of Jerusalem. It will have legal possession only when final status agreement is reached. You are probably right about the Levant, maybe it was a mistake to use it. Alun 05:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant about your edit. Someone had changed it. Maybe it's somewhat irrelevant to the article to say that Israel has illegal sovreignty over Jerusalem. Why not just leave it as simply Jerusalem. I can see no rationale for including your change. Alun 10:03, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, I won't change it back to Israel for now. But still, I have to just point out the car analogy is not exactly appropriate - I mean, the point is that "no one" really owned Jerusalem in the way I would own (and legally buy) a car. It'd be more like one car that has had many owners being discarded by the latest owner, and a bunch of former owners all claiming ownership of it, however only one owner actually physically claimed it, whether rightfully or not.
As for the U.N. being more legitimate than "my opinion", well, I think it really shouldn't be about "opinions", since at the end both what I say and what the U.N. says are "opinions" and not facts. The U.N. didn't approve of the U.S. going into war in Iraq, yet it is still a fact that they indeed go to war in Iraq and that's what has to be reported as fact. The U.N. doesn't approve of Israeli ownership of Jeruslaem, but it is still a fact that presently they "own" it, or at least enforce their ownership and inhabitance there, and are the only authority that can physically do that.
On March 10 (2003), French president Jacques Chirac declared that France would veto any resolution which would automatically lead to war. This caused open displays of dismay by the US and British governments. The drive by Britain for unanimity and a "second resolution" was effectively abandoned at that point. from UN Security Council Resolution 1441.
But I guess this has nothing to do with Natalie Portman... -24.141.149.226
I wasn't hoping to start a discussion but rather to finish it. What I meant by "former owner discarding" was the British Empire's decision to leave that area (i.e. the Balfour Declaration), not the Ottoman Empire.
But I'd like to say you shouldn't make assumptions about people based on little evidence - I never said I was in support of the Iraq war (in fact quite the opposite, and also in fact whether I do or do not support it is irrelevant since my political views are not under discussion here. And since you like sending me to various Wikipedia policy pages, why don't I send you to one Wikipedia:No personal attacks, i.e. "Comment on content, not on the contributor"). Anyway, I simply used the Iraq War as a good example of something that was done by a country without U.N. authority or authorization but obviously still has to be reported as fact, much like the control of Jerusalem by Israel. The U.N. may well have "the power to make internationally binding decisions", but my exact point was that many countries don't care and still do whatever they want, and what they do still has to be reported as factual reality, whether the U.N. approves or not. And personally I sincerely doubt that "the reason for the Invasion" was Saddam's breach of U.N. resolutions - I would hardly think that was what Bush administration was thinking about. -24.141.149.226
There is no dispute over Israeli ownership of West Jerusalem, which is, I'm sure, where Natalie Portman was born. The dispute is about East Jerusalem. Jayjg (talk) 05:42, 18 September 2005 (UTC)~
Regardless of the meandering of the above discussion, Jerusalem is not in Israel. The article should read she "was born in Jerusalem". Most everyone knows where Jerusalem is, and if they don't they shouldn't be looking for the answer inside an article on Natalie Portman. If there are no objections I will make the change. Notice I will not write "Jerusalem, Palestine" or "Jerusalem, Levant", rather simply and succinctly "Jerusalem". I think the folks reading the article can understand contextually that "Jerusalem" refers to the city whose status is currently disputed. Thedukeofno 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem is in fact divided into sereval sections...is it not? Therefore, Natalie Portman is Israeli so was born in ISRAELI Jerusalem. Thus, the article should read "Jerusalem, Israel"! -- Yayacaca 03:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia notes of Jerusalem: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, although this designation and Israel's annexation of the eastern portion of the city are matters of international dispute." That said, I would assume Natalie was born in western Jerusalem, which is most definitely under Israeli control and can be considered part of Israel.
68.187.192.107
14:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and facts should be presented. Where facts are not presented, nothing should be assumed. I don't know for fact that she was born in west Jerusalem. If so, it should say she was born in "western Jerusalem, Israel.". If she wasn't born in western Jerusalem, it should say she was born in "Jerusalem". That is the only way the article can be factually accurate. As her exact place of birth (east or west Jerusalem) has not been noted in this article, nothing can be assumed.
Please fully read the above thread of discussion; I believe you will agree that just plain "Jerusalem" is the best compromise. I believe we should keep it at "Jerusalem" until the east/west issue has been determined.
Thedukeofno 11:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem is physically in Israel. Not only that, but part of it belongs to Israel under all international law. Thus, Natalie was born in Israeli Jerusalem. Yayacaca 03:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Yaya, your logic is faulty. If two Swedish citizens have a child in East Orange, New Jersey, the child is Swedish. However, East Orange, New Jersey does not then become part of Sweden.
Only west Jersusalem is recognized by the international community to be part of Israel (please note the spelling of Israel). If she was born in the western part, "Jerusalem, Israel" is correct. If she was born in the eastern section, "Jerusalem" is correct.
I don't want this to turn into a revert war. If you'd like, we can bring it to arbitration.
Thedukeofno 06:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Natalie Portman was born in
Hadassah hospital.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Culture/5233.htm is an article in the Israelinsider that states that she was born in that hospital. It is located in Western Jerusalem which is under Israeli jurisdiction. As Thedukeofno pointed out, Western Jerusalem is Israeli. Thus, Natalie Portman was born in ISRAEL. I hope that this issue can finally come to rest!
Yayacaca 03:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's how we settle this debate, and in fact every other debate on Wikipedia. If we have a large number of reliable sources on Natalie Portman that state that she was born in "Jerusalem, Israel", then we can list her as being born in Jerusalem, Israel. If we don't, not. Wikipedia reports what other sources have said - and if they've reported that Portman was born in Israel, so can we and so we should. It's as simple as that. Now let's look at what the sources say Mad Jack 08:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's how we settle this debate, and in fact every other debate on Wikipedia. If we have a large number of reliable sources on Natalie Portman that state that she was born in "Jerusalem, Israel", then we can list her as being born in Jerusalem, Israel. If we don't, not. Wikipedia reports what other sources have said - and if they've reported that Portman was born in Israel, so can we and so we should. It's as simple as that. Now let's look at what the sources say Mad Jack 08:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, it's very simple. If we have sources that say Portman was born in Israel, then we can say that. If we also have sources that say that Portman wasn't born in Israel, then we have a debate/problem/etc., but I haven't any any sources like that so far. It is irrelevant if you think that all the sources made a "mistake", because that's your opinion. I haven't seen any sources so far that explicitly contested Portman's birth place, so I see no reason not to include it, and I shortly will, citing several sources to support it. Mad Jack 18:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Way to remove the birth place, leave my citations, and add a citation of your own that has nothing to do with Portman. Mad Jack 19:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, "erroneous information" is your or whoever's opinion. You need a reliable source that actually says that Portman wasn't born in Israel, i.e. that the articles are in error when they say so. This article now claims exactly what almost every other source on Portman has said, that she was born in Jerusalem, Israel. It claims nothing less or more than that. It's irrelevant what you think of the people who wrote the stuff on Portman. It is only relevant that they wrote it, and that they are a reliable source for a Portman article. Wikipedia now reflects the majority of sources on Portman (and yes, I'm sure there are some sources that say she was born in "Jerusalem", just as some sources would say "Los Angeles" and not mention California or the US. But if you want to contest what the article now says, you need a reliable source that actually says Portman was not born in Israel.) Mad Jack 19:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. Again, this article says "Natalie Portman was born in Jerusalem, Israel". This exact statement is backed up by sources which are definitely reliable to Natalie Portman, including the New York Times. These sources have expertise in the field of Natalie Portman, and fulfill the reliable sources criteria when it comes to Natallie Portman, which is all they need to be to be used in this article (although they would be unacceptable in an article about Jerusalem). That's really all there is to it, unless there are equally reliable sources about Natalie Portman that say different. Also, please never again start sentences with "you", because personal accusations, etc. are not acceptable. We are here to discuss what reliable sources say on the subject of Natalie Portman, not what they say on other subjects, or what you or I think about this all. Mad Jack 21:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)