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I'm attempting to understand what 2.92.126.42 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) wants to say. I've invited him to discuss on this talk page, but so far he has refused. So I decided to create a new section. From what I gather, the main points he wants to convey are:
He quotes a Russian source to support the first point, and makes the the second point twice with two different sources (one of which is a memoir). Is this a reasonable summary? Putting aside the somewhat awkward grammar and questionable sources, would anyone know if there are there good sources backing up these points and if so should we include these points in the article?
Personally, I see some merit of including a mention on the second point (if it is true and can be adequately sourced). I'm somewhat confused on the first point. Unless there is some evidence that Bonaparte considered this action, I don't see how it is relevant. What a Russian thinks Bonaparte should have done seems tangential to an article about Bonaparte if it was never discussed by or with Bonaparte. -- -- Work permit ( talk) 15:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
I welcome everyone and I will speak in more detail if this topic is of interest.
Of course, Napoleon III sought to emulate the foreign policy of his great relative. For example, an attempt to conquer Mexico directly resembles the expedition of Napoleon I to Egypt. And the support of Poland directly aimed to recreate the Duchy of Warsaw of 1807. But we must remember that the military clash between France and Prussia was directly on the agenda after 1866 and everyone in Europe was waiting for it. Therefore, after 1866, France concentrated all its forces for the future war with Prussia and all the adventures of Napoleon III stopped. Every division he needed was at the front, not in Mexico or against Russia for freedom of Poland.
The support of Poland by the great powers in 1860s was very conditional. Yes, they filed protests, but there was no joint performance. Each power served its own. And besides, it is on the verge of a joke, when France together with Austria protested for the freedom of Poland. When Austria itself had its slice of Poland. Obviously, Austria was very angry with Russia and therefore the temptation to say nasty things against Russia overpowered everything.
A brief summary of the following - France after 1866 have been concentrating their forces for a future war with Prussia and did not want to start a new adventures. Especially after the complete failure of the past in Mexico. France needed every division against the Prussians. The question of an Alliance with Russia is therefore on the agenda. But as I said - France and Napoleon III did not want to meet Russia and cancel the restrictive clauses of the Paris Treaty of 1856. Simply because France's foreign policy in 1860s COMPLETELY failed. Therefore, for reasons of prestige, they (Napoleon III and his command) did not want to cancel the Paris Treaty of 1856, even to the detriment of today's interests. That is, they were going to new defeats and disaster in 1870 at the Sedan.
Of course, Russia wanted to abolish the restrictive clauses of the Paris Treaty of 1856. As Bismarck said (and he had the experience of communicating with Russia) - "Russia knows how to wait, to wait persistently, stubbornly. Do not rely on paper contracts torn by force from her. It was a waste of paper". Russia considered the terms of the Treaty of 1856 unfair and it was only a matter of time for Russia, Russia only waiting for the right time to oppose it. And this moment came in 1870, when after the surrender of the French army, surrounded in Metz, France finally lost hope to change the course of the war in their favor and everyone understood it. That's when Russia announced refusal to comply with the restrictions according to Treaty of 1856.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 07:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer: — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.92.126.42 (
talk)
11:32, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
You repeat the French arguments of the pre-Sedan era. These arguments, of course, have their own logic and, to some extent, credibility. But the reality is they are completely broke at Sedan in 1870. You should not try to revive the dead, especially after 150 years in the grave.
France did not want to meet Russia halfway and cancel the Paris agreement of 1856. This is a historical fact. Why did France insist on preserving a Treaty that was not necessary? This is also a historical issue. My opinion - I repeat - is simply because France's foreign policy in 1860 COMPLETELY failed. Well, if she had at least a minimal success and at least somewhere - undoubtedly, Napoleon III would have gone to meet Russia for an ally against Prussia.
Well, at least in Mexico, well, at least with Poland, well, at least the smallest piece of land on the Rhine or at least in Luxembourg - this would allow for the world and France to imagine that everything is going well. But in fact - on the contrary, everywhere a complete failure and deception. The whole world sees that Napoleon III is a complete loser. Therefore, even to a minimum extent to abandon the past achievements of Napoleon III did not want to somehow maintain its prestige. That is, the road to disaster in 1870. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 11:30, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
Well, we always act on the basis of the information that is available now, not later. So here Napoleon III is not alone in this circumstance. And Bismarck acted as he could not know what will turn his trickery of Napoleon III. Who knows? Maybe in 1870 it will come back times Jena und Auerstedt?
Imagine that in the 1860s in the foreign policy of France everything went well - you can today in 2019. I will repeat - at least the minimum success and though somewhere would allow Napoleon III to represent it then to the French. But even the minimum success was not. The complete failure of French foreign policy in the 1860s is a historical fact.
And you're wrong when you write " But in 1860-1870 that was certainly not in the cards.". Judging by this, you can not imagine the situation in 1870s. When Prusso-Germany decided to completely destroy France and prevent its revival as an enemy. In this case we are talking about "he War-Scare Of 1875".
Very soon Russia was for France the only world power that could help her against the attack of Prusso-Germany. In 1875 Prusso-Germany compeled the signature of a treaty ceding Belfort to Germany, imposing limitations on the French military establishment, and providing for an indemnity of 10 milliards to be paid in installments covering a period of not less than 20 years". "The military party in Germany, still dissatisfied with the treaty of Frankfort, has decided that the time has come to remedy its defects and to put an end forever to the possibility of a recovery on the part of France. Only Russia stands in a position to veto their schemes...". [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 12:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
Look, if you don't even do anything, you do something. In this case, you do nothing. What I want to say can be formulated as follows:
1.Napoleon III did not make any serious attempts to negotiate with Russia. Although Russian-French negotiations were a fact (there was a visit of the Russian Emperor to Paris in 1868.
2. Obviously, Napoleon III sought only to put pressure on Bismarck, scare him with an Alliance with Russia, to force him to make concessions to the territory. But Napoleon III himself did not want to make concessions to Russia, because he understood that in return Russia would demand the abolition of the restrictive clauses of the Paris Treaty of 1856.
3.The foreign policy of France in the 1860s was completely unsuccessful and therefore Napoleon III did not want to give up past achievements in the name of prestige.
4.The Franco-Russian Union took place only after the abolition of the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856 and immediately proved its usefulness. When Russia did not allow the second defeat of France in 1875 and the transformation of France into a German vassal like Austria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 13:10, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
You wrote: "But that were a sequence of events that nobody – especially not France - had foreseen in the 1860s". I agree only with the indication "not France".
"Napoleon III's clique soared in the clouds of Sevastopol glory, not sinking in thoughts to the sinful earth, and was not capable of analysis from the standpoint of geopolitical realism, neglected cooperation with Russia, unleashed a war with Prussia. The thirst for territorial gains did not leave her until the end, and she did not keep her thoughts about the need to break foreign policy priorities and turn to the needs of a partner".
You see, it was a clash with reality in 1870 for France. After that, France began to look at the world more adequately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 14:22, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
You surprise, when you write: Nor do you provide concrete evidence of concrete French political/diplomatic negotiations with Russia in the late 1860s.
First, the talks were held during the visit of the Russian Emperor to Paris in 1867. And secondly, in life it is considered not only what is done, but also what is not done. Napoleon III did not want to bind himself with specific promises, and sought only to scare Bismarck that he still gave at least something of the land that promised Napoleon III before 1866.
And what could be done in 1875 could be done in 1868 or 1869. Isn't it? Here simply over you and all other dominates historical knowledge. We all know that the next time the old opponents met in 1914, we think it could not have been otherwise. And could be and immediately in 1875. When Russia though with the Tsar who liked Prussia, but Russia warned Germany that doesn't trust Germany and won't allow new defeat of France. And the Germans retreated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 14:41, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
"You can't enter the same river twice." Is that what you're saying? That's a long time ago. It is also said that "history is the teacher of life." Therefore, it is possible and necessary to compare historical situations and make conclusions. Even after 150 years. My opinion is that you still do not quite want to admit that France in 1860s had a complete failure in foreign policy. And this failed policy is a historical fact. Well, who is responsible for this situation? It is also obvious - Napoleon III himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 18:40, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
Still, it turns out I'm right. You don't want to admit the obvious, total failure of French foreign policy in the 1860s. Like, "Yes, something was wrong but generally speaking - it was not so bad". Yes? Because Napoleon III sought at least the smallest piece of territory well, at least where, even on the Rhine, even in Belgium, even in Luxembourg. Even such a small success in obtaining territory would allow him to imagine for his French and for the world that everything is going well. But even the smallest success did not happen. Napoleon III himself and France were completely deceived by Bismarck and received NOTHING. Complete failure. Even the smallest success even in Mexico, even with Poland would allow to speak - "Everything is not so bad as it seems". But the small success was not. "There are no more mistakes that you could make, because all possible mistakes have already been made by you" - these words Thiers addressed to the Emperor of the French in 1867 is wrong? Do not try to deny the obvious, especially after 150 years.
I'm not only bringing my personal point of view here. This view is generally accepted in Russia. In a rebuke to France from Russia constantly is the fact that Napoleon III did not seek allience with Russia, and only allowed the fog and trying to scare the Bismarck that Bismarck still gave any of the territories that he promised to Napoleon III, to 1866.
"But Napoleon III, not understanding all the dimensions of the danger that grew up at the Eastern border of France, did nothing to make at least an attempt to get closer to St. Petersburg. When in the autumn of 1870 Thierre rushed to St. Petersburg to ask for Allience and help, it was too late. After the Sedan, neither Alexander II nor Gorchakov wanted to hear about it". [2]
Answer:
I can only encourage you and everyone to discuss the topic, not to express opinions about the historians referred to. We all have personal opinions who are considered authoritative historians, and who can not be considered so. I have it different than you. I can also express my opinion about the historians you refer to (if you ask), it will be different and you will not like it, as I think. Therefore, I urge to discuss the stated topic and come to some consensus. If we only express our opinions, there will be no consensus.
The point of view that I present and argue is not only my own. And I cited a reference to the authoritative work of 1959 as proof of that. This opinion has existed in Russia for a long time. And today the situation is the same. I can give you modern sources that say the same thing.
No Alliance between France and Russia was concluded in 1860.
"Gorchakov reported to the Emperor: "Nor the services we have to him (Napoleon III) provided, neither friendly representations, nor visit of Your Majesty to Paris weren't able to establish between us and France that serious Union which would promote preservation of balance and the peace in Europe" [3]
The question of Poland, of course, complicated relations between France and Russia. French society sympathized with the independence of Poland, and Napoleon III himself undoubtedly meant the restoration in some new form of the Duchy of Warsaw in 1807. But in general, the Polish question did not play a major role. Later in 1870s there was a rapid rapprochement between France and Russia with the formation of a military Alliance in the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 07:55, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer to fdewaele:
I can only say that for a bunch of particulars can not miss the main thing. But the main thing was - inadequate perception of themselves and the world. In the summer of 1870 for France there was a tough clash with reality. And to this France was not six months or a year. And all 1860s from one failure to another France was on road to a disaster. Do not pretend that "there were some mistakes, but in general - it was not so bad as it seems". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 08:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer to Rjensen:
You yourself write that the agreement recorded from Russia "benevolent neutrality towards France". No more than. Russia was not going to agree with the leadership of Napoleon III and embark on his adventures. In Russia immediately understood the whole foreign policy adventurism of Napoleon III and didn't want to be with him somewhere in Mexico. Russia's position was very, very cautious.
If we believe you, it turns out that it was Napoleon III who refused to honor Russia with his favors in 1863. Not at all. "And what, talked Gorchakov, instead of destruction of the European balance? To Russia was proposed "Galicia, but the price for it - the war with an unknown outcome; as for painful conditions for us, 1856, we were promised at the conclusion of the peace - eventual support, due to circumstances utterly beyond rational accounting". [4]
That is, Russia from the very beginning put a condition for the Franco-Russian Union to abolish the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856. But Napoleon III did not promise anything concrete, only vague phrases. Therefore, the Franco-Russian Union died before even being born. The question of Poland here is not the main one, although he, of course, also played against it.
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.92.126.42 (
talk)
17:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer to Fdewaele:
Historia magistra vitae est.History is the teacher of life. Let us proceed from this. We study history for the purpose not to repeat past mistakes. I understand that you just do not want to talk a lot about the mistakes of Napoleon III and France (of course). That's why you seek to reduce his mistakes somehow. Like, Yes, he could not know how it would end. Anyway, it wasn't that simple. And Bismarck tricked him, and Prussians too quickly done in summer 1870. And all you have to what? To repeat old arguments pre-Sedan era. Again, these arguments have own logic and to some extent convincing. But! They ran out of 1 September 1870 at Sedan. This is reality. You should not try to revive the dead, especially if the dead man spent 150 years in the grave. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 19:24, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
In addition on the subject of the Franco-Russian Alliance, 1859:
Russia agreed a treaty with France on 3 March 1859, but promised no more than `benevolent neutrality` in the event of Franco-Piedmontese attack on Austria. The treaty also stated that if war broke out in north Italy other countries were to be informed that this struggle cannot endanger the interests of great mutual powers, whose balance of power will not be affected. Having signed the treaty, Russia went on trying to solve the Italian problem through diplomatic channels. (...) the cardinal problem, from the point of view of Russian diplomacy, was no longer the intensification but the localization of the Italian crisis. [5]
That is, Russia's cooperation with France was very limited. Russia very careful looking at Napoleon III, didn't want to become a junior partner of his and participate in his adventures. For fear of being somewhere in Mexico. Russia did not assume any direct obligations to participate in the war or even in military demonstrations against Austria. Even against Austria, which in Russia then directly hated and relations with which were spoiled finally. Until the end of both empires in 1910s, Russian-Austrian relations were bad. But even against Austria, Russia was not going to participate in the war. All the promises of Napoleon III to give a piece of Austria to Russia (Galicia) - Russia rejected and put a condition of the Franco-Russian Union, the abolition of restrictions of the Treaty of Paris of 1856. But here Napoleon III only says vague phrases and Russia refused a serious Franco-Russian Union — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 07:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
More information on the topic:
The Russians immediately set about establishing good relations with Sardinia and France, a radical break from previous Russian foreign policy. The Russian ambassador told the Sardinian prime minister, Count Camillo di Cavour, “Our two countries must be good friends because they don’t have interests that divide them, and they have common grudges that bring them together.”94 Then, in 1858, Russia entered negotiations with France to cooperate in the impending war between Sardinia and Austria that France planned to join. Russia was willing to concentrate sufficient forces on the Austrian border to occupy 150,000 Austrian troops and press other powers to remain neutral, and it would have been willing to do more in return for French support in repealing the Bessarabian cession or the Black Sea clauses of the Treaty of Paris. In the course of negotiations, Tsar Alexander II told the French he would not intervene militarily but would rather employ “the tactic followed by Austria during the Crimean war.”[95] France and Russia were never able to come to agreement on the points that would have led to the most intimate relations, but a vague secret agreement was signed on 3 March 1859 in which Russia agreed to benevolent neutrality toward France and to exert pressure on neutral states on France’s behalf in the event of a Franco-Austrian war. Russia also led France to expect a troop demonstration that would tie down Austrian troops in Galicia. With these assurances, France and Sardinia fought the Italian War in which Austria lost the northern Italian province of Lombardy. [6]
That is, Russia acted very, very cautiously. For the Alliance with France was immediately put forward the condition of the revision of the Treaty of Paris in 1856, and when France did not go for it, the cooperation with France was severely limited. Russia did not take any direct obligations even in terms of military demonstrations, There were only some oral agreements between the Russian Tsar and Napoleon III, but in any case Russia did not want to bind itself with any clear obligations until France, in turn, also did not express clearly its position on the abolition of the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 10:35, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
More information on this topic.
Since Crimean war events had shown that despite its apparent logic, there were great obstacles in the path of a Franco-Russian alliance. To be sure, neither of the powers could succeed in the mayor objectives without support from the other: France in the revision of the settlement of 1815 and Russia in the revision of that of 1856. Without Russia`s benevolent neutrality Napoleon would have hesitated to move against Austria in 1859 and without French assistance Russia had little chance of liquidating the restrictions placed on her sovereignty in the Black Sea. Yet Napoleon was reluctant to part company with London; he feared British sea power for which Russia could supply no substitute. Furthermore Czar Alexander was much to conservative to relish entering into a genuinely revolutionary compact with Napoleon. After the annexation of Nice and Savoy he became increasingly cool to the idea. But Gorchakov was incorrigible. Even in the midst of the conservative rapprochement of 1860 he continued to hold out an arm to Paris eager for the most feeble handshake. [7]
That is, Russia from the very beginning put a condition for the Union with France - revision of the Paris Treaty in 1856. But Napoleon III refused. It is clear why - the Treaty of 1856 was beneficial for England. France did not need the sovereign rights of Russia on the Black sea. But it was necessary to favor England. Because his overseas adventures might have taken place at all if England had approved them, even reluctantly and tacitly. But Napoleon III wanted it overseas adventures - in Mexico, Vietnam, Syria and so on. That's why he let the fog in conversations with Russia and delayed time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 14:12, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Dear interlocutors, maybe a fragment of the text should be as follows:
French policy at that time can be described in the following words: "He (the Minister of foreign Affairs of France in 1870 Gramont) merely presumed that the Austrians and Danes would spontaneously join a Franco-Prussian war, that Italy would come along sooner or later, and that Russia would not budge". [8] It can be concluded that the Alliance with Russia was not planned at all. This seems rather strange if you know what role the Alliance of France with Russia played in the future, eventually formalized into a military Alliance, since 1907. The alliance with Russia was possible only after the abolition of the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856. But France under the leadership of Napoleon III did not want to do this. “Since Crimean war events had shown that despite its apparent logic, there were great obstacles in the path of a Franco-Russian alliance. To be sure, neither of the powers could succeed in the major objectives without support from the other: France in the revision of the settlement of 1815 and Russia in the revision of that of 1856. Without Russia`s benevolent neutrality Napoleon would have hesitated to move against Austria in 1859 and without French assistance Russia had little chance of liquidating the restrictions placed on her sovereignty in the Black Sea. Yet Napoleon was reluctant to part company with London; he feared British sea power for which Russia could supply no substitute. [9] “Odious for the Russian side, his clauses remained an insurmountable obstacle to the agreement of the two countries". [10] "Nobody expected the Black Sea clauses restricting Russian power to last very long after the Treaty of Paris of 1856. In every European diplomatic crisis for the next 14 years every state (except Britain) offered support for ending the restriction in return for a quid pro quo that was important to them at the time. Napoleon III was the first to do so during the talks about a Franco-Russian alliance in 1858-1859. He had no real interest in supporting the clauses which always meant much more to the British than to French. Neutralization of the Black Sea survived until the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71". [11]
Initially, Napoleon III refused to revise the Treaty of Paris in 1856, because he feared to cause dissatisfaction with Britain and it could interfere with his plans for colonial conquests (in 1860-1867 years were military expeditions to China, Indochina, Mexico, Syria, etc.). Then the situation changed, in 1860s France faced a number of diplomatic defeats in Europe from Prussia. Actually the crisis around Spain in 1870 also had no serious significance for the military security of France, because Spain was not a serious enemy, and Prussia had a small military fleet compared to the French. This shows how France's foreign policy was devoid of manoeuvre, since any new failure, even the smallest one, or what can be thought of as a failure, was perceived painfully by public opinion in France. France's foreign policy was so unfortunate that it was forced, for reasons of prestige, to hold on to past achievements to the detriment of today's interests. Thus, the Alliance with Russia by France was excluded. In contrast, Prussia was ready for rapprochement with Russia. Prussia was the only world power that supported Russia in the demands of the revision of the Treaty of Paris of 1856. Prussia promised Russia support in canceling the terms of the Paris Treaty of 1856. Bismarck, having declared it impossible to keep 100 million Russians in a humiliated position without sovereign rights to their Black Sea coastline, [12] supported Russia in the abolition of the Treaty of Paris, and in return achieved freedom of action against France in 1870-71.
"Bismarck had bought Tsar Alexander II’s complicity by promising to help restore his naval access to the Black Sea and Mediterranean (cut off by the treaties ending the Crimean War), other powers were less biddable". [13]
Thus Prussia got rid of the "nightmare of the war on two fronts" (which Prussia was able to do in 1866 against Austria by Italy), secured freedom of action against France in 1870. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 06:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
In this section, reforms from Dezember 61 are discussed, then in Feb 61 'further reforms' are enacted. It seems likely to me that the second date should be Feb 62, but I can't be sure.-- 91.64.37.35 ( talk) 20:07, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I recall from a book about the relations between Napoleon III and Queen Victoria that Napoleon III liked recounting to Victoria that while in exile in England late 1830s-most of 1840s he had volunteered as a special constable during the 'Chartist riots'? (Not seen mentioned in this article.) Is there published evidence preferably nearer his own lifetime that he was sworn in to serve? I am also (because of the decades since I read it) uncertain which one it was -1839, 1842 and 1848 stand out in my mind as the years Chartist demonstrations in London occurred. Cloptonson ( talk) 14:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
I have noticed that the lead image seems to bounce around these three paintings:
Personally, I prefer 2, as it seems to have been used the most (from browsing the page history) and, I believe, was his wife's favourite painting of him. Please give your opinions. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 16:10, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Demo Accounts 109.245.35.217 ( talk) 14:58, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I'm attempting to understand what 2.92.126.42 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) wants to say. I've invited him to discuss on this talk page, but so far he has refused. So I decided to create a new section. From what I gather, the main points he wants to convey are:
He quotes a Russian source to support the first point, and makes the the second point twice with two different sources (one of which is a memoir). Is this a reasonable summary? Putting aside the somewhat awkward grammar and questionable sources, would anyone know if there are there good sources backing up these points and if so should we include these points in the article?
Personally, I see some merit of including a mention on the second point (if it is true and can be adequately sourced). I'm somewhat confused on the first point. Unless there is some evidence that Bonaparte considered this action, I don't see how it is relevant. What a Russian thinks Bonaparte should have done seems tangential to an article about Bonaparte if it was never discussed by or with Bonaparte. -- -- Work permit ( talk) 15:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
I welcome everyone and I will speak in more detail if this topic is of interest.
Of course, Napoleon III sought to emulate the foreign policy of his great relative. For example, an attempt to conquer Mexico directly resembles the expedition of Napoleon I to Egypt. And the support of Poland directly aimed to recreate the Duchy of Warsaw of 1807. But we must remember that the military clash between France and Prussia was directly on the agenda after 1866 and everyone in Europe was waiting for it. Therefore, after 1866, France concentrated all its forces for the future war with Prussia and all the adventures of Napoleon III stopped. Every division he needed was at the front, not in Mexico or against Russia for freedom of Poland.
The support of Poland by the great powers in 1860s was very conditional. Yes, they filed protests, but there was no joint performance. Each power served its own. And besides, it is on the verge of a joke, when France together with Austria protested for the freedom of Poland. When Austria itself had its slice of Poland. Obviously, Austria was very angry with Russia and therefore the temptation to say nasty things against Russia overpowered everything.
A brief summary of the following - France after 1866 have been concentrating their forces for a future war with Prussia and did not want to start a new adventures. Especially after the complete failure of the past in Mexico. France needed every division against the Prussians. The question of an Alliance with Russia is therefore on the agenda. But as I said - France and Napoleon III did not want to meet Russia and cancel the restrictive clauses of the Paris Treaty of 1856. Simply because France's foreign policy in 1860s COMPLETELY failed. Therefore, for reasons of prestige, they (Napoleon III and his command) did not want to cancel the Paris Treaty of 1856, even to the detriment of today's interests. That is, they were going to new defeats and disaster in 1870 at the Sedan.
Of course, Russia wanted to abolish the restrictive clauses of the Paris Treaty of 1856. As Bismarck said (and he had the experience of communicating with Russia) - "Russia knows how to wait, to wait persistently, stubbornly. Do not rely on paper contracts torn by force from her. It was a waste of paper". Russia considered the terms of the Treaty of 1856 unfair and it was only a matter of time for Russia, Russia only waiting for the right time to oppose it. And this moment came in 1870, when after the surrender of the French army, surrounded in Metz, France finally lost hope to change the course of the war in their favor and everyone understood it. That's when Russia announced refusal to comply with the restrictions according to Treaty of 1856.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 07:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer: — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.92.126.42 (
talk)
11:32, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
You repeat the French arguments of the pre-Sedan era. These arguments, of course, have their own logic and, to some extent, credibility. But the reality is they are completely broke at Sedan in 1870. You should not try to revive the dead, especially after 150 years in the grave.
France did not want to meet Russia halfway and cancel the Paris agreement of 1856. This is a historical fact. Why did France insist on preserving a Treaty that was not necessary? This is also a historical issue. My opinion - I repeat - is simply because France's foreign policy in 1860 COMPLETELY failed. Well, if she had at least a minimal success and at least somewhere - undoubtedly, Napoleon III would have gone to meet Russia for an ally against Prussia.
Well, at least in Mexico, well, at least with Poland, well, at least the smallest piece of land on the Rhine or at least in Luxembourg - this would allow for the world and France to imagine that everything is going well. But in fact - on the contrary, everywhere a complete failure and deception. The whole world sees that Napoleon III is a complete loser. Therefore, even to a minimum extent to abandon the past achievements of Napoleon III did not want to somehow maintain its prestige. That is, the road to disaster in 1870. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 11:30, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
Well, we always act on the basis of the information that is available now, not later. So here Napoleon III is not alone in this circumstance. And Bismarck acted as he could not know what will turn his trickery of Napoleon III. Who knows? Maybe in 1870 it will come back times Jena und Auerstedt?
Imagine that in the 1860s in the foreign policy of France everything went well - you can today in 2019. I will repeat - at least the minimum success and though somewhere would allow Napoleon III to represent it then to the French. But even the minimum success was not. The complete failure of French foreign policy in the 1860s is a historical fact.
And you're wrong when you write " But in 1860-1870 that was certainly not in the cards.". Judging by this, you can not imagine the situation in 1870s. When Prusso-Germany decided to completely destroy France and prevent its revival as an enemy. In this case we are talking about "he War-Scare Of 1875".
Very soon Russia was for France the only world power that could help her against the attack of Prusso-Germany. In 1875 Prusso-Germany compeled the signature of a treaty ceding Belfort to Germany, imposing limitations on the French military establishment, and providing for an indemnity of 10 milliards to be paid in installments covering a period of not less than 20 years". "The military party in Germany, still dissatisfied with the treaty of Frankfort, has decided that the time has come to remedy its defects and to put an end forever to the possibility of a recovery on the part of France. Only Russia stands in a position to veto their schemes...". [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 12:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
Look, if you don't even do anything, you do something. In this case, you do nothing. What I want to say can be formulated as follows:
1.Napoleon III did not make any serious attempts to negotiate with Russia. Although Russian-French negotiations were a fact (there was a visit of the Russian Emperor to Paris in 1868.
2. Obviously, Napoleon III sought only to put pressure on Bismarck, scare him with an Alliance with Russia, to force him to make concessions to the territory. But Napoleon III himself did not want to make concessions to Russia, because he understood that in return Russia would demand the abolition of the restrictive clauses of the Paris Treaty of 1856.
3.The foreign policy of France in the 1860s was completely unsuccessful and therefore Napoleon III did not want to give up past achievements in the name of prestige.
4.The Franco-Russian Union took place only after the abolition of the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856 and immediately proved its usefulness. When Russia did not allow the second defeat of France in 1875 and the transformation of France into a German vassal like Austria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 13:10, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
You wrote: "But that were a sequence of events that nobody – especially not France - had foreseen in the 1860s". I agree only with the indication "not France".
"Napoleon III's clique soared in the clouds of Sevastopol glory, not sinking in thoughts to the sinful earth, and was not capable of analysis from the standpoint of geopolitical realism, neglected cooperation with Russia, unleashed a war with Prussia. The thirst for territorial gains did not leave her until the end, and she did not keep her thoughts about the need to break foreign policy priorities and turn to the needs of a partner".
You see, it was a clash with reality in 1870 for France. After that, France began to look at the world more adequately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 14:22, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
You surprise, when you write: Nor do you provide concrete evidence of concrete French political/diplomatic negotiations with Russia in the late 1860s.
First, the talks were held during the visit of the Russian Emperor to Paris in 1867. And secondly, in life it is considered not only what is done, but also what is not done. Napoleon III did not want to bind himself with specific promises, and sought only to scare Bismarck that he still gave at least something of the land that promised Napoleon III before 1866.
And what could be done in 1875 could be done in 1868 or 1869. Isn't it? Here simply over you and all other dominates historical knowledge. We all know that the next time the old opponents met in 1914, we think it could not have been otherwise. And could be and immediately in 1875. When Russia though with the Tsar who liked Prussia, but Russia warned Germany that doesn't trust Germany and won't allow new defeat of France. And the Germans retreated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 14:41, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
"You can't enter the same river twice." Is that what you're saying? That's a long time ago. It is also said that "history is the teacher of life." Therefore, it is possible and necessary to compare historical situations and make conclusions. Even after 150 years. My opinion is that you still do not quite want to admit that France in 1860s had a complete failure in foreign policy. And this failed policy is a historical fact. Well, who is responsible for this situation? It is also obvious - Napoleon III himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 18:40, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer:
Still, it turns out I'm right. You don't want to admit the obvious, total failure of French foreign policy in the 1860s. Like, "Yes, something was wrong but generally speaking - it was not so bad". Yes? Because Napoleon III sought at least the smallest piece of territory well, at least where, even on the Rhine, even in Belgium, even in Luxembourg. Even such a small success in obtaining territory would allow him to imagine for his French and for the world that everything is going well. But even the smallest success did not happen. Napoleon III himself and France were completely deceived by Bismarck and received NOTHING. Complete failure. Even the smallest success even in Mexico, even with Poland would allow to speak - "Everything is not so bad as it seems". But the small success was not. "There are no more mistakes that you could make, because all possible mistakes have already been made by you" - these words Thiers addressed to the Emperor of the French in 1867 is wrong? Do not try to deny the obvious, especially after 150 years.
I'm not only bringing my personal point of view here. This view is generally accepted in Russia. In a rebuke to France from Russia constantly is the fact that Napoleon III did not seek allience with Russia, and only allowed the fog and trying to scare the Bismarck that Bismarck still gave any of the territories that he promised to Napoleon III, to 1866.
"But Napoleon III, not understanding all the dimensions of the danger that grew up at the Eastern border of France, did nothing to make at least an attempt to get closer to St. Petersburg. When in the autumn of 1870 Thierre rushed to St. Petersburg to ask for Allience and help, it was too late. After the Sedan, neither Alexander II nor Gorchakov wanted to hear about it". [2]
Answer:
I can only encourage you and everyone to discuss the topic, not to express opinions about the historians referred to. We all have personal opinions who are considered authoritative historians, and who can not be considered so. I have it different than you. I can also express my opinion about the historians you refer to (if you ask), it will be different and you will not like it, as I think. Therefore, I urge to discuss the stated topic and come to some consensus. If we only express our opinions, there will be no consensus.
The point of view that I present and argue is not only my own. And I cited a reference to the authoritative work of 1959 as proof of that. This opinion has existed in Russia for a long time. And today the situation is the same. I can give you modern sources that say the same thing.
No Alliance between France and Russia was concluded in 1860.
"Gorchakov reported to the Emperor: "Nor the services we have to him (Napoleon III) provided, neither friendly representations, nor visit of Your Majesty to Paris weren't able to establish between us and France that serious Union which would promote preservation of balance and the peace in Europe" [3]
The question of Poland, of course, complicated relations between France and Russia. French society sympathized with the independence of Poland, and Napoleon III himself undoubtedly meant the restoration in some new form of the Duchy of Warsaw in 1807. But in general, the Polish question did not play a major role. Later in 1870s there was a rapid rapprochement between France and Russia with the formation of a military Alliance in the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 07:55, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer to fdewaele:
I can only say that for a bunch of particulars can not miss the main thing. But the main thing was - inadequate perception of themselves and the world. In the summer of 1870 for France there was a tough clash with reality. And to this France was not six months or a year. And all 1860s from one failure to another France was on road to a disaster. Do not pretend that "there were some mistakes, but in general - it was not so bad as it seems". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 08:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer to Rjensen:
You yourself write that the agreement recorded from Russia "benevolent neutrality towards France". No more than. Russia was not going to agree with the leadership of Napoleon III and embark on his adventures. In Russia immediately understood the whole foreign policy adventurism of Napoleon III and didn't want to be with him somewhere in Mexico. Russia's position was very, very cautious.
If we believe you, it turns out that it was Napoleon III who refused to honor Russia with his favors in 1863. Not at all. "And what, talked Gorchakov, instead of destruction of the European balance? To Russia was proposed "Galicia, but the price for it - the war with an unknown outcome; as for painful conditions for us, 1856, we were promised at the conclusion of the peace - eventual support, due to circumstances utterly beyond rational accounting". [4]
That is, Russia from the very beginning put a condition for the Franco-Russian Union to abolish the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856. But Napoleon III did not promise anything concrete, only vague phrases. Therefore, the Franco-Russian Union died before even being born. The question of Poland here is not the main one, although he, of course, also played against it.
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.92.126.42 (
talk)
17:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Answer to Fdewaele:
Historia magistra vitae est.History is the teacher of life. Let us proceed from this. We study history for the purpose not to repeat past mistakes. I understand that you just do not want to talk a lot about the mistakes of Napoleon III and France (of course). That's why you seek to reduce his mistakes somehow. Like, Yes, he could not know how it would end. Anyway, it wasn't that simple. And Bismarck tricked him, and Prussians too quickly done in summer 1870. And all you have to what? To repeat old arguments pre-Sedan era. Again, these arguments have own logic and to some extent convincing. But! They ran out of 1 September 1870 at Sedan. This is reality. You should not try to revive the dead, especially if the dead man spent 150 years in the grave. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 19:24, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
In addition on the subject of the Franco-Russian Alliance, 1859:
Russia agreed a treaty with France on 3 March 1859, but promised no more than `benevolent neutrality` in the event of Franco-Piedmontese attack on Austria. The treaty also stated that if war broke out in north Italy other countries were to be informed that this struggle cannot endanger the interests of great mutual powers, whose balance of power will not be affected. Having signed the treaty, Russia went on trying to solve the Italian problem through diplomatic channels. (...) the cardinal problem, from the point of view of Russian diplomacy, was no longer the intensification but the localization of the Italian crisis. [5]
That is, Russia's cooperation with France was very limited. Russia very careful looking at Napoleon III, didn't want to become a junior partner of his and participate in his adventures. For fear of being somewhere in Mexico. Russia did not assume any direct obligations to participate in the war or even in military demonstrations against Austria. Even against Austria, which in Russia then directly hated and relations with which were spoiled finally. Until the end of both empires in 1910s, Russian-Austrian relations were bad. But even against Austria, Russia was not going to participate in the war. All the promises of Napoleon III to give a piece of Austria to Russia (Galicia) - Russia rejected and put a condition of the Franco-Russian Union, the abolition of restrictions of the Treaty of Paris of 1856. But here Napoleon III only says vague phrases and Russia refused a serious Franco-Russian Union — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 07:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
More information on the topic:
The Russians immediately set about establishing good relations with Sardinia and France, a radical break from previous Russian foreign policy. The Russian ambassador told the Sardinian prime minister, Count Camillo di Cavour, “Our two countries must be good friends because they don’t have interests that divide them, and they have common grudges that bring them together.”94 Then, in 1858, Russia entered negotiations with France to cooperate in the impending war between Sardinia and Austria that France planned to join. Russia was willing to concentrate sufficient forces on the Austrian border to occupy 150,000 Austrian troops and press other powers to remain neutral, and it would have been willing to do more in return for French support in repealing the Bessarabian cession or the Black Sea clauses of the Treaty of Paris. In the course of negotiations, Tsar Alexander II told the French he would not intervene militarily but would rather employ “the tactic followed by Austria during the Crimean war.”[95] France and Russia were never able to come to agreement on the points that would have led to the most intimate relations, but a vague secret agreement was signed on 3 March 1859 in which Russia agreed to benevolent neutrality toward France and to exert pressure on neutral states on France’s behalf in the event of a Franco-Austrian war. Russia also led France to expect a troop demonstration that would tie down Austrian troops in Galicia. With these assurances, France and Sardinia fought the Italian War in which Austria lost the northern Italian province of Lombardy. [6]
That is, Russia acted very, very cautiously. For the Alliance with France was immediately put forward the condition of the revision of the Treaty of Paris in 1856, and when France did not go for it, the cooperation with France was severely limited. Russia did not take any direct obligations even in terms of military demonstrations, There were only some oral agreements between the Russian Tsar and Napoleon III, but in any case Russia did not want to bind itself with any clear obligations until France, in turn, also did not express clearly its position on the abolition of the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 10:35, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
More information on this topic.
Since Crimean war events had shown that despite its apparent logic, there were great obstacles in the path of a Franco-Russian alliance. To be sure, neither of the powers could succeed in the mayor objectives without support from the other: France in the revision of the settlement of 1815 and Russia in the revision of that of 1856. Without Russia`s benevolent neutrality Napoleon would have hesitated to move against Austria in 1859 and without French assistance Russia had little chance of liquidating the restrictions placed on her sovereignty in the Black Sea. Yet Napoleon was reluctant to part company with London; he feared British sea power for which Russia could supply no substitute. Furthermore Czar Alexander was much to conservative to relish entering into a genuinely revolutionary compact with Napoleon. After the annexation of Nice and Savoy he became increasingly cool to the idea. But Gorchakov was incorrigible. Even in the midst of the conservative rapprochement of 1860 he continued to hold out an arm to Paris eager for the most feeble handshake. [7]
That is, Russia from the very beginning put a condition for the Union with France - revision of the Paris Treaty in 1856. But Napoleon III refused. It is clear why - the Treaty of 1856 was beneficial for England. France did not need the sovereign rights of Russia on the Black sea. But it was necessary to favor England. Because his overseas adventures might have taken place at all if England had approved them, even reluctantly and tacitly. But Napoleon III wanted it overseas adventures - in Mexico, Vietnam, Syria and so on. That's why he let the fog in conversations with Russia and delayed time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 14:12, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Dear interlocutors, maybe a fragment of the text should be as follows:
French policy at that time can be described in the following words: "He (the Minister of foreign Affairs of France in 1870 Gramont) merely presumed that the Austrians and Danes would spontaneously join a Franco-Prussian war, that Italy would come along sooner or later, and that Russia would not budge". [8] It can be concluded that the Alliance with Russia was not planned at all. This seems rather strange if you know what role the Alliance of France with Russia played in the future, eventually formalized into a military Alliance, since 1907. The alliance with Russia was possible only after the abolition of the restrictions of the Paris Treaty of 1856. But France under the leadership of Napoleon III did not want to do this. “Since Crimean war events had shown that despite its apparent logic, there were great obstacles in the path of a Franco-Russian alliance. To be sure, neither of the powers could succeed in the major objectives without support from the other: France in the revision of the settlement of 1815 and Russia in the revision of that of 1856. Without Russia`s benevolent neutrality Napoleon would have hesitated to move against Austria in 1859 and without French assistance Russia had little chance of liquidating the restrictions placed on her sovereignty in the Black Sea. Yet Napoleon was reluctant to part company with London; he feared British sea power for which Russia could supply no substitute. [9] “Odious for the Russian side, his clauses remained an insurmountable obstacle to the agreement of the two countries". [10] "Nobody expected the Black Sea clauses restricting Russian power to last very long after the Treaty of Paris of 1856. In every European diplomatic crisis for the next 14 years every state (except Britain) offered support for ending the restriction in return for a quid pro quo that was important to them at the time. Napoleon III was the first to do so during the talks about a Franco-Russian alliance in 1858-1859. He had no real interest in supporting the clauses which always meant much more to the British than to French. Neutralization of the Black Sea survived until the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71". [11]
Initially, Napoleon III refused to revise the Treaty of Paris in 1856, because he feared to cause dissatisfaction with Britain and it could interfere with his plans for colonial conquests (in 1860-1867 years were military expeditions to China, Indochina, Mexico, Syria, etc.). Then the situation changed, in 1860s France faced a number of diplomatic defeats in Europe from Prussia. Actually the crisis around Spain in 1870 also had no serious significance for the military security of France, because Spain was not a serious enemy, and Prussia had a small military fleet compared to the French. This shows how France's foreign policy was devoid of manoeuvre, since any new failure, even the smallest one, or what can be thought of as a failure, was perceived painfully by public opinion in France. France's foreign policy was so unfortunate that it was forced, for reasons of prestige, to hold on to past achievements to the detriment of today's interests. Thus, the Alliance with Russia by France was excluded. In contrast, Prussia was ready for rapprochement with Russia. Prussia was the only world power that supported Russia in the demands of the revision of the Treaty of Paris of 1856. Prussia promised Russia support in canceling the terms of the Paris Treaty of 1856. Bismarck, having declared it impossible to keep 100 million Russians in a humiliated position without sovereign rights to their Black Sea coastline, [12] supported Russia in the abolition of the Treaty of Paris, and in return achieved freedom of action against France in 1870-71.
"Bismarck had bought Tsar Alexander II’s complicity by promising to help restore his naval access to the Black Sea and Mediterranean (cut off by the treaties ending the Crimean War), other powers were less biddable". [13]
Thus Prussia got rid of the "nightmare of the war on two fronts" (which Prussia was able to do in 1866 against Austria by Italy), secured freedom of action against France in 1870. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.92.126.42 ( talk) 06:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
In this section, reforms from Dezember 61 are discussed, then in Feb 61 'further reforms' are enacted. It seems likely to me that the second date should be Feb 62, but I can't be sure.-- 91.64.37.35 ( talk) 20:07, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I recall from a book about the relations between Napoleon III and Queen Victoria that Napoleon III liked recounting to Victoria that while in exile in England late 1830s-most of 1840s he had volunteered as a special constable during the 'Chartist riots'? (Not seen mentioned in this article.) Is there published evidence preferably nearer his own lifetime that he was sworn in to serve? I am also (because of the decades since I read it) uncertain which one it was -1839, 1842 and 1848 stand out in my mind as the years Chartist demonstrations in London occurred. Cloptonson ( talk) 14:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
I have noticed that the lead image seems to bounce around these three paintings:
Personally, I prefer 2, as it seems to have been used the most (from browsing the page history) and, I believe, was his wife's favourite painting of him. Please give your opinions. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 16:10, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Demo Accounts 109.245.35.217 ( talk) 14:58, 26 March 2023 (UTC)