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I was under the impression that barbaroi meant "bearded ones." Is this not true? If it is, why isn't that included in this article? Best, Hydriotaphia 00:39, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Two things in this section need to be improved: (1) the significance of the reference to Oropos is unclear; why is Oropos being referred to here? Some context is needed. (2) The theory of migration to Italy, given in the last paragraph of this section, should be evaluated. What do scholars think of it? Is it plausible? What's the consensus? Hydriotaphia 00:54, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Colossus, many congratulations on this article. You've done quite a job. One question for you, though: don't you think "distortion" is an inappropriately normative, and therefore POV, word to use in this context? After all, you can only call something a semantic "distortion" if you have a preconceived notion of what the correct use of a word is; and the only way you can have a view of the correct use of a word is either to appeal to consensus or to a view of what is right and wrong, a view that would necessarily be controversial. So I would counsel you to change the word back to "change" or a related term—or to appeal to a consensus of some sort. Or am I missing something in your use of the word "distortion"? Again, warm congratulations on this article. Hydriotaphia 01:46, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, one can find writings from various Fathers of the Church that don't use the term Hellenas in that way. +MATIA ☎ 18:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
At the article Maniots, one may read that, in the time of Eastern Roman Emperor Leo VI "the Philosopher" (886-912), the Maniots were deemed pagan "Hellenes" (practitioners of pagan Greek culture), not part of Romiosyni— followers of the "Roman" religion. The isolated Maniots became Christians in the 9th century. If correct, this should be added to the "Hellenes" section. -- Wetman 01:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Hellen the mythological patriarch of the Hellenes and Graecus (grandson of Deucalion, brother of Latinus and I think nephew of Hellen) [1] [2]
Perhaps "οι καλούμενοι τότε μεν Γραικοί, νυν δ' Έλληνες" Αριστοτέλης, Μετεωρολογικά, 352, should be translated into "who were called then Graeci, but now Hellenes" instead of "Graeci who later came to be known as Hellenes". MATIA 19:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I think "here lived Selli" or "here Selli dwelt" or something similar. MATIA 00:06, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
After a point, probably before 1821, the term Romans (Ρωμαίοι) became Romioi (Ρωμηοί). The term was also used during the 20th century, "Ρωμιός αγάπησε Ρωμιά" was a popular song of Zambetas sung by Kokotas. We should also write something about the term Romanity (Ρωμιοσύνη). I've added some links, one more that I haven't yet added is Palamas and Romanity by John S. Romanides. MATIA 19:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
In 212 aD emperor Caracalla issued Constitutio Antoniniana that gave all free-born men of the Roman Empire full Roman citizenship. Since then the Greeks (among others) were called Romans. MATIA 23:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Some notes from Herodotus (not necessarily to be added) about Greco-Persian Wars and more:
"if we shall subdue these and the neighbours of these, who dwell in the land of Pelops the Phrygian, we shall cause the Persian land to have the same boundaries as the heaven of Zeus; since in truth upon no land will the sun look down which borders ours, but I with your help shall make all the lands into one land, having passed through the whole extent of Europe. For I am informed that things are so, namely that there is no city of men nor any race of human beings remaining, which will be able to come to a contest with us, when those whom I just now mentioned have been removed out of the way. Thus both those who have committed wrong against us will have the yoke of slavery, and also those who have not committed wrong."
Herodotus, BOOK VII, 8 c alternate translation
on book 5, the Battle of Thermopylae is described. Leonidas part in greek history can be compared with Alexander's thus mentioning him is justified.
8:144 "the bond of Hellenic race, by which we are of one blood and of one speech, the common temples of the gods and the common sacrifices, the manners of life which are the same for all"
τὸ Ἑλληνικόν, ἐὸν ὅμαιμόν τε καὶ ὁμόγλωσσον, καὶ θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι ἤθεά τε ὁμότροπα
about Macedons:
after describing Alexander I of Macedon having killed the envoys of Darius I.
5:22 "these descendants of Perdiccas are Hellenes, as they themselves say, I happen to know myself, and not only so, but I will prove in the succeeding history that they are Hellenes." MATIA 10:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I am thinking of a small comparison between Herodotus' above definition of Hellenikon, Isocrates', "Panegyricus", 50: "the title of Hellene a badge of education rather than of common descent" and Paul's Epistle to Galatians 2:27-28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" "27 ὅσοι γὰρ εἰς Χριστὸν ἐβαπτίσθητε, Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε. 28 οὐκ ἔνι ᾿Ιουδαῖος οὐδὲ ῞Ελλην, οὐκ ἔνι δοῦλος οὐδὲ ἐλεύθερος, οὐκ ἔνι ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ· πάντες γὰρ ὑμεῖς εἷς ἐστε ἐν Χριστῷ ᾿Ιησοῦ." MATIA 20:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added Hesiod and Caracalla. Later will add Hesiod references http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=Graecus&fk_files[]=35422 http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=Hellenic&fk_files[]=35422 http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=Hellen&fk_files[]=35422 probably after rearranging (+1) the footnotes and gathering more info. Hesiod has nice stuff on Macedon too. MATIA 19:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
We need to be extremely wary on further addition of information. Given the scope of the subject, this article can only be practical if it remains concise and that requires focus on the overview and not being extensive. It's already gone overboard with 38Kb of information, surpassing the maximum of 33Kb, and there's still one last section pending on the post-Independence era. Aspiring to squeeze as many facts as possible is counter-productive and wont improve the article but only overwhelm the reader with overinformation, while an average reader will very easily get bored away. I learned this when I first started this article. As large as the current version may appear, my first drafts were almost twice as large, the result of my attempts to include as many sources as possible. If you check the history of the pre redirect page (in Greek (name)) you'll notice that I had to cut down on large chunks of information in order to maintain simplicity and not lose the reader, which really is the only way to go. If information is deemed necessary to readability, then at least it should be integrated in the main body in a way without adding length to the article.
I removed the edits on Graecus in the "Hellenes" section because they're already mentioned in the first line of the "Greeks and Yunani" section, and repetitive information will only take up already much needed space. Colossus 23:44, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Article size is mostly a problem for editing using certain browsers. I agree on the ideas about cleanup, readability etc.
Graecus is indeed mentioned later (actually linked and Greeks mentioned as a Boeotian tribe), but Hellen is not mentioned at all and I believe I chose the proper place to cite Hesiod. It's probably the oldest source for both Greeks and Hellenes, considering that Hesiod recorded myths that existed before him.
This "Greeks were called after Graecus those who followed Hellenic customs, and Hellen named Hellenes those who were called Greeks" was a merge of two phrases from project gutenberg's translation. Perhaps you can rephrase it and put it back - for example "those who followed Hellenic customs were called Greeks after Graecus and Hellen renamed them to Hellenes". Hesiod's phrases also agrees with Aristotle's "Meteorologica, I, 352b".
That's my only objection, the rest changes on your edit seem fine to me :) MATIA 01:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Nice job Colossus! If you can add Ρωμηός/Ρωμιός on Romans. MATIA 15:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm disappointed that no one bothered to comment my objection in the FAC, so I'll repeat it here.
There are two problems with the article:
Try to keep in mind that we're writing not only for our own enjoyment, but also to provide others with properly structured and sorted information.
Peter Isotalo 11:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Believe me Peter there are a lot of people who need those notes to verify the quotes. I've already mentioned that on the FaC discussion. MATIA 13:03, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I've just re-read Wikipedia:Footnote3, Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles/Generic citations, but I can't understand your objections. MATIA 13:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
"Try to keep in mind that we're writing not only for our own enjoyment, but also to provide others with properly structured and sorted information", "cluttering the text, needlessly over-referencing basic facts, making the article look pseudo-academic". I still can't understand these. Could you possibly explain what you meant or give examples (how it is now and what's your suggested change)? If you check encyclopedias or dictionaries that are public domain like the 1911, you 'll see that many articles have such footnotes. MATIA 15:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I have questioned neither the use of quotes nor the amount of references used, Colossus. I questioned the way double-references have been made first by citing the source in the text and then adding a very pointless footnote that points to the same source, except with a page number. Should I assume we're actually agreeing on this?
MATIA, you're doing exactly what I asked Macrakis not to do; trying to make it personal. Is this really the way you want to discuss things?
Peter Isotalo 08:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Peter, certain phrases you used before might be interpreted as disrespect to other wikipedians. Although this, and probably every, article can be improved, the long debate about the footnotes doesn't help that improvement. I do agree with some of your comments and I will have them on my mind. I believe that eventually, some changes will be made that shall satisfy your concerns as well. With regards, MATIA 09:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I find the current name for this article somewhat ambiguous. "Names of the Greeks" (quite amusingly) brings to my mind: «Kostas, Maria, Nikos etc». Would "Names for the Greek nation" or "Names for the Greek people" not be more accurate/appropriate? I propose moving the article but would of course like some feedback before undertaking any such action. Please offer your opinions. (unsigned by User:Contributor175 at 14:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC))
I must agree wih Contributor175, this is a very confusing and ambiguous title. It sounds amateurish, and confusing. hdstubbs
While I'd certainly agree that the name is adequate, and I don't have any strong feelings either way regarding whether it should be changed or not, I think it could probably be improved, and whether you think it's:
if you also feel it could be improved, should we start discussing possible names? After all, just complaining about the title won't do anything; once we have alternatives, we can start voting on whether to rename it to something. - Silence 07:42, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
09:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Baad 09:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Accuracy is more important than being 'clumsy'. Also, "Names of the Greeks" is extremely clumsy. Maybe we could use geography, Historical names for peoples of the Aegean Penisula or is it the southern tip of the Balkan Penisula? How about History of Greek nomenclature or History of Greek monikers? hdstubbs
Why are the notes in 75% font? Ingoolemo talk 05:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
If you are going to use the word "polyonymous" in the opening paragraph, especially as the predicate of a sentence, then somebody should create a wiktionary definition for polyonymy and link to it. Babajobu 08:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
polyonymous [ [3]] and polyonymy [ [4]] in wiktionary. -- FocalPoint 15:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
And I'm so glad because I never would have found this article without the feature. It's really amazing and immensely complete. Congrats! -- Atlastawake 13:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
x
It is possible that the name "Greece" (and Graecia) may derive from word "Crete".
Cretes (or else, Cretans, Kretans) is the first people that had trading contacts with Italy (i.e. Latins, Etruscans, Ausones etc), in Minoan period (3rd and 2nd millennium BC). Originally, Cretes lived at coasts of Middle Greece (Aetolia, Attica) as Curetes or Graecoi or Graecians or Graëces. Later, they migrated to island Crete (as Cretans or Minoites) and to Caria, in Asia Minor, (as Cares).
Italians (and the other Europeans) keep this original name for posterior Helenes, too. So, did Asians with name of first Greek tribe (i.e. the Ionians) that they knew (through trade).
-- IonnKorr 04:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Here could be discussed the edits recently suggested about the main article. Deucalionite introduced some changes that seemed to disagree with the main article itself. Perhaps these or some of these changes could be listed here so they can be debated. Colossus 00:23, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Seems that Wikipedia prefers anything that "does not conflict with the overall article" instead of historical accuracy. Also, just because an article becomes famous, does not mean it is perfect or that its content are immutable. In fact, the absence of the Romaic identity being a specifically Greek identity of the Middle Ages shows that the article needs some good historically accurate tweaking. So, let us put things in their proper context.
I know that the sources I placed (albeit not good ones I agree though I can provide better) do refer to the existence of a Romaic identity and not just a Roman identity. Aldux stated that what is important in the articles I edited (Names of the Greeks and Byzantine Empire) is historiography. Personally, "historiography" has led many in Western European scholarship to deem the Byzantine Empire as a "collapsing civilization" since its birth. Even if one were to deem the Eastern Roman Empire as Greco-Roman, it does not change the fact that the majority of its inhabitants were Greeks and that the Greeks had a specific name that they used to refer to themselves at the time. That name being "Romioi" (or Romaions or whatever name used other than just Roman).
To be honest, I prefer social analysis rather than historiography. The Greek mentality is of the utmost importance in better understanding how the Greeks perceived themselves throughout their history. The Greek mentality was, and has always been, dualistic. In the case of the medieval Greeks, they called themselves "Romioi" (and I don't care if the English language has never seen the word "Romioi" for it does not change the fact that that is what the Greeks called themselves during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages). The question is, why? The reason why the Greeks called themselves "Romioi" was because they maintained their citizenship as Romans, but at the same time they did not want to forsake their own Hellenic roots. Even though the meaning of the term "Hellene" meant "pagan" at the time, its other meanings (an ethnic, racial, cultural, linguistic Greek) were merely transferred into the new word "Romios." So, "Romios" came to mean "a Roman citizen of Greek descent/culture/language and follower of Eastern Orthodox Christianity." See the dualism?
I know that the Byzantine Empire was deemed by its administrators as the "Empire of the Romans" (Imperium Romanorum). However, a social analysis study requires that one distinugish the difference between people in a political adminstration and people who are outside of a political administration. I am sure people already know that Eastern Roman imperial politics were very complex and secretive (to an extent). Now, why would some (or even many) Byzantine officials want to deem their empire as just Roman or their citizens as simply Romans? To put things in their proper social and political context, Byzantine officials were mainly focused on how to best increase or consolidate the sphere of influence (whether directly or indirectly) of the Eastern Roman Empire. Using the phrase "Empire of the Romans" instead of "Empire of the Greco-Romans" or "Empire of the Romioi" shows that Byzantine officials wanted to offset foreign imperial plans of expansion into Roman and ex-Roman territories (in a sense, to make foreign empires still think that the Byzantines were just like the very powerful old Romans capable of defeating armies and maintaining territories for vast periods of time). Moreover, it was a phrase that had prestige at the time even though the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. Constantinople was the new Rome of the time and the officials were simply taking a bath in all of the glory. The Byzantine officials would use the phrase to either follow in old Roman traditions or to simply maintain an aura of power that would emanate beyond Byzantine territories. To put it simply, the officials could care less what name they used just as long as it served their political, economic, and social agendas.
Byzantine officials state, for instance, that the citizens of the Byzantine Empire are just Romans. Just because it is official or because there was an official Byzantine consensus on the matter, does that make it true? Not really. The Greeks were aware of who they were and called themselves Romioi even though their officials still preferred to call their citizens "Romans." Now, you find yourself in the time of Heraclius' administration. Heraclius made the administrators use Greek instead of Latin, but that did not automatically lead to Greeks changing their language from Latin to Greek. In fact, Greeks were still speaking Greek way before Heraclius was crowned emperor in 610 A.D.
Look, I have no intention of causing needless trouble. However, I am for historical accuracy and even if that accuracy leads to the sacrificing of article aesthetics, then it is for the better. Better educating people about history when they use the Internet is a more important cause than merely focusing one's energies on making articles look pretty. Even though aesthetics are important, it should come second to historical accuracy. Over and out.
- Deucalionite 12/6/05 9:47 P.M. EST
I might have written somewhere before that, Romans (Ρωμαίοι) has evolved into Romioi (Ρωμιοί). I have not seen the term Romaions before, but I think it's the same thing we 're talking about. If you read the article more carefully, you'll see that those people weren't Romans with the original meaning of the term, but they used that term and gave it a new meaning (after all the people of Roman Empire got Roman Citizenship), the meaning of that identity you describe. Take the time and read the external links of the article, and the article itself, carefully. And I must note that the aesthetics in a Featured Article are very important - what you should have done in the first place, is write these paragraphs here, instead of changing parts of the article that you might have misunderstood. Perhaps some things need clarification but if you believe that this article uses the term Romans with a very strict sense, I think you have misunderstood something. +MATIA ☎ 11:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Romioi is just the English transliteration of the Greek name Ρωμιοί, and Romaioi of Ρωμαίοι, each representing respectively the demotic and katharevousa of the language. Romans is the English translation of the same terms. Distinguishing between Romans and Romaions creates a false apprehension of the reality. The Greeks did not suddenly call themselves Romans only to realize then after that they were not really Romans. They called themselves Romioi automatically after Caracella's decree for the specific reasons I have stated previously. I still dont understand the point you're trying to make here. What's the difference between Romans and Romioi, besides the obvious lingual variation. Where the people you call Romans and Romioi not one and the same? If so, there's no need in re-inventing the wheel. THe standar English term for desrcibing the Greeks in the middle ages, is Byzantines or Romans. Why the need to diverge from it? Colossus 01:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The entire discussion about Romaioi and Romioi is pedantry. Romioi is simply the demotic version of Romaioi. And since there is no equivalent of a demotic and katharevousa in the English or any other language, now or during the middle ages, Romans is the translation for both. Colossus 22:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The edit in question: to me it seems mostly like redundant or not properly worded clarifications. If someone reads Constitutio Antoniniana he can learn the details about Caracalla and the extension of Roman citizenship from Rome to the whole Empire. The phrase around "dualistic connotation", is not understandable to me. I don't know what else to say. What do others think? +MATIA ☎ 19:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps Deucalionite means the westerners who are influenced by Gibbon or Hieronymus Wolf. +MATIA ☎ 21:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Matia, you're too good :-) To be honest, I'm only an editor like thousands, and relatively recent also; and I never even went near to write a featured article or an article that could be proposed for that :-) As for writing that "Romaios" meant "Christian" you're wright; I'lll say more, it meant orthodox (unheretical, that is) Christian. I think it was C. Mango who wrote about this, but I'll search for the book. What I doubt is the distinction between "Romaios" and "Romios" has really sense, if it's not, like Colossus said, pedantry. Ciao! ;-) Aldux 12:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll try a partial revert later today. +MATIA ☎ 13:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I've seen somewhere that Saint Athanasius of Alexandria used the term Romania (Ρωμανία) for the Eastern Roman Empire around 400 AD and I found at CCEL the phrase "With regard to the wider question, Athanasius expresses reverence for that bishopric `because it is an Apostolic throne,' and `for Rome, because it is the metropolis of Romania'". +MATIA ☎ 22:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone can start these entries in Wiktionary and link them into the Wiki article's text. Wiktionary allows for a detailed treatment. In Wiktionary, the entries should be in Greek characters. Alexander 007 02:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a couple of sentences in the beginning of the article regarding how Georgian people used to call (and still call) Greeks. These sentences were taken exactly as they appear in the page for Greece under the heading "Name". I think that apart from being very interesting that Georgians think of Greeks as Wise people, it also completes the list of how people around the world call Greeks and gives more meaning to the word "polyonymous". I am open for discussion on this change and wait for your comments. NikoSilver 19:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The article is not very clear on that. Who exactly was called Selloi by whom? Also, why is the "Iones" name in the East lumped together with the "Graeci" name in the West? I see no reason why there should not be separate "Graeci" and "Iones" sections. dab (ᛏ) 06:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
This has been removed from after Caracalla:
Romaios is standard Greek for Roman, and can be attested since Polybius. Please do not replace this kerfluffle. Septentrionalis 18:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there a problem with the references in the last paragraph of
"Hellene" comes to mean "pagan"? I mean it seems that the references 32,33,34 are wrong. Have 33 and 34 been swapped? And about 32, I can't find this sentence in the original texte of the Acts of the Apostles (neither in English nor in French).
I try to translate this article for the french WP, so that it would be very nice if you can help me. (You can also get in touch wih me
there) -Thanks
Good initiative. Nothing I want to modify right now. I think it would be good to have other Greek topic pages linked to this one and perhaps more links attached to this one. Politis 18:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
User:Semioli claims in his edit summary that these are dictated by the Manual of Style; I will refer to Manual the prove this user's claims wrong:
User:Semioli claims: Avoid AD when redundant (see MOS)
User:Semioli claims: "Pagan", as opposed to "Christian", is capitalized)
I have thus proceeded to edit the article accordingly. Contributor175 14:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Semioli 16:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I am writing in regard to the recent change initiated by myself at the header section of this (great) article. Before my edit it read:
I thought that this narrowed down a generalized usage of the term to Jews and their views alone. I am not an expert on the subject but I do suspect that by that time, a "Hellene" was anyone in the Hellenistic lifestyle (theaters, gyms etc) and religion (the syncretized Greco-Roman religion?). So I changed the original to:
Pmanderson further changed this to:
I feel that this, new version, again brings the article to the former, narrowed down view of the term. Again, I note that I am not an expert on the subject, but it would seem to me rather odd if this usage was confined to Judea and Jews alone.
By the way, a citation about St Paul's intentions on using "Hellene" would be the famous "there is neither Greek nor Jew" phrase.-- Michalis Famelis (talk) 16:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello. A translation has been done on :fr and the article was subbmitted to be a featured article. Some problems of pertinence were raised and some contributors think this article should not be FA. If you can read french, please visit fr:Wikipédia:Proposition articles de qualité/Noms des Grecs, otherwise, you have to know that many find this article POV because it presents only the "official history" written by Greeks after their war of independance (and which is quite far of the reality). -- NeuCeu 09:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
{{
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: |pages=
has extra text (
help)There was yet another centre of Hellenism in the Balkans, in Constantinople itself, for the Greeks were not only heirs to Hellas, but also to Byzantium
From ancient Greece the modern country inherited a sophisticated culture and a language that has been documented for almost three millennia. The language of Periclean Athens in the 5th century BC and the present-day language of the Greeks are recognizably one and the same; few languages can demonstrate such continuity. From the Byzantine Empire it has inherited Eastern Orthodox Christianity and from Ottoman rule attitudes and values that continue to be of significance, not least in shaping the country's political culture.
Ah, I see. These articles (En and Fr versions) obviously need the attention of experts. Personally, I am not in a position to assess the significance of your points. What I know for sure (since I live in Greece) is that the extreme majority of both Arvanites and Aromanians self-identify as Greeks (actually, even our President Karolos Papoulias is one), speak Greek, and are Greek Orthodox. The relevant wikilinked articles are pretty sourced on that. Given that self-identification, language, religion and place of birth are the primary factors defining ethnicity, I don't know if that omission is damning for the FA status of this article (Note: titled Names of the Greeks, not Greeks). However, I wouldn't object in its elaboration in due weight. •NikoSilver• 12:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
On a lighter note, I'm glad both French and Greeks understand these concepts of 'continuity'. Maybe this is the reason why we have been identified as the most nationalists in Europe! citation needed Hopefully, members of other nations will manage to understand concepts such as Hellenism for their own (which has nothing to do with nationality, or ethnicity, but with values -see #2), and then we'll have less trouble maliciously enforcing our point of view worldwide! •NikoSilver• 13:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The comments in the French WP are very pertinent. The current article is written as though "the Greeks" refers to exactly the same concept through the centuries, and simply presents the different names for this one concept. But in fact the definition of being Greek has changed quite a bit through the centuries, and the different names only partly correspond to this. Projecting the modern definition back into the past is unhistorical and misleading. The current article does not do a good job of reflecting the true historical complexity of the situation. -- Macrakis 14:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Having read and seen the play "Birds" I do not recall any supervisor of the birds. I think that it was Epops -an ancient king transformed to a bird- that taught them how to speak. Can you be a little more precise in that part? Thank you! 83.235.233.83 11:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
After the name was extended to all peoples south of Mount Olympus, however, it still left out those of common origin living in the north. One factor contributing to this was their refusal to participate in the Persian Wars, which were considered a vital affair for all Hellenes; prior to the wars, representatives of these tribes had been accepted in the Olympic Games and competed alongside other Hellenes 14.
14 For example, King Alcon and King Tharypas of Mollosus, Alexander I and Archelaus of Macedonia
The above footnote doesn't fit with the text as it has chronological and factual errors as follows:
1. Archelaus lived after the Persian Wars and set up an "Olympia" at Dion in Macedonia. He did not compete at the games at Olympia.
2. Herodotus mentions Alcon as a suitor of the daughter of Kleisthenes of Sicyon but nowhere mentions his participation at Olympia.
3. Tharypas is mentioned by Thucydides around the time of the Peloponesian War - again well after the Persian Wars. Again, I am unaware of any mention of Tharypas as a competitor at Olympia.
Only Alexander I possibly competed at Olympia prior to the Persian Wars.
It should also be mentioned that the representatives competing at Olympia from Macedon where originally kings (Alexander I for example) as at that time (pre 4th century BC) only the Macedonian royal family where considered as being sufficiently "Hellenic" by the Hellanodikai at Olympia.
The text and/or footnote therefore needs to be amended in light of the above inaccuracies.
Thucydides calls the Acarnanians, Aetolians,[15] Epirotes and Macedonians barbarians, but does so in a strictly linguistic sense.
This is confusing without further elucidation as to why they where considered so "linguistically" - i.e. were the Epirote, West Greek and Macedonian dialects sufficiently different/archaic so as to be considered "barbaric" at the time of Thucydides? Leaving the sentence as it is implies that the language of these peoples was something other than a dialect of Greek.
When the Athenian orator Demosthenes called the Macedonians worse than barbarians in his Third Philippic directed at Philip II of Macedon, he did so with respect to the culture they demonstrated as foreigners not adhering to proper Hellenic standards, and did not raise the issue of their origin
What is meant by the phrase "not adhering to proper Hellenic standards" is ambiguous and needs some explanation - for example the fact that the Macedonian political institution was that of a "Homeric" style monarchy rather than a democratic or oligarchic city state, etc. I think such differences need to be made clearer, maybe by way of footnote.
What are other peoples' opinions on these issues?
Sattlersjaw 11:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1.Archelaos Perdikas or Arhelaus Perdikkas Macedonian king. He reportedly participated in the Olympics in 408 BCE,and won the race of the four-horse chariot in Delphi [6] Alexander I donated a statue of himself at Delphi after 479, and Archelaos took part in the Pythian Games(Delphi) [7] [8]
2.About Greeks labelled barbarian in antiquity [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 06:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
3.Ancient remains that have been discovered in Aiani prove that the ancient Hellenistic Macedonian society spoke and wrote in Greek. Overturning,once and for all,the common accepted belief that Upper Macedonia was both socially and culturally isolated from the rest of ancient Greece.On the Contrary by the (6)Sixth Century BC Hellenism in Upper Macedonia was already at a high economic,artistic and cultural level.Inhabitants of this area lived in well-planned cities and not in nomadic groups depending on farming and animal husbandry-BRITANNICA VIDEO [10] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.0.219 ( talk) 17:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
What the hell are Graecans??? All the references I've seen about this are from derivative works from Wikipedia... Citation needed???... Manuel Anastácio 16:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
And why can't I find any town called Trehine, except in this article and his translations???... Manuel Anastácio 20:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be Trachis??? Manuel Anastácio 19:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The leader of the Greek War of Independence began his Declaration with a phrase similar to the above: "The time has come, O men, Hellenes". Please review your sources, you can't invent leaders because there is emphasis in an essay. The word implies a status which didn't exist in the Greek War of Independence. Often Greek texts in order to emphasize the help someone provided describe him/her with words that are translated as "leader", such as "αρχηγός", "πρωτεργάτης", "πρωτομάστορας" though these are only exaggerations. See if this was the case and please tell who your source states as "the leader".
Alexandros Ypsilantis was the official leader of the Greek revolution. The Greek revolution was organized by Filiki Eteria (a Greek secret organization) (The leading team was called the "Authority"). Alexandros Ypsilantis was elected by the “Authority” as “Επίτροπος της Αρχής” (Epitropos tis Arxis) which means “ the overlord of the Authority”. He had the general leading of the revolution and he was considered by everyone as leader! Seleukosa 16:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
There's a mention about Aristophanes, "The Birds", 199 - but I don't find nothing about that sense of the word "barbarian" in the whole of Aristophane's text. Could someone tell me what is said in the text? I only find the reference to the barbarian god who speaks with noises, not what is said in this article... Manuel Anastácio 22:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't find, also, the citation "an illiterate man is also a barbarian" in "The Clouds" of Aristophanes! One carachter tells the other is an ignorant and a babarian, but not like is said in the article. Manuel Anastácio 22:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
in the greek text is the term barbarian in the spanish translation could be something else
Oh! the ignoramus! the barbarian! Socrates to Strepsiades [11] [12] [13] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 05:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The original phrase is "άνθρωπoς αμαθές ουτωσί και βάρβαρος!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 06:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The newcomers Dorians (the Macedonians including) did not exist and did not participate in Trojan war
The Dorian invasion is dated two generations after the Trojan War. [14] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 05:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"When the ATHENIANS attacked the HELLENES" Thukydides, 3.62;
"And this was the first naval victory that the city (ATHENS) had against the HELLENES, after the destruction." [Plutarch, Phokion 6]
"Even though the LACEDAEMONIANS had combated the HELLENES many times only one of their kings had ever died in action..." [Plutarch, Agis 21]
"The CRETANS, when the HELLENES sent to ask aid from them... acted as follows..." [Herodotos 7.169]
MORE EXAMPLES [15] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 06:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
As Hellenes was named a tribe in modern day Thessaly,Greece.Latter the name expanded to include all Greeks. Eagle of Pontus ( talk) 15:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The article needs some maps. The addition of Image:Pelasgians.jpg is a good start, but there have to be other 4-5 maps, one for each period to show the places of residence of people who called themselves Greeks (or any of their other names).-- FocalPoint ( talk) 06:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This article needs a thorough quality review. I doubt if it is really Featured Article material as it claims. I removed or tagged a few bits, but I'm sure there is more. Unsourced, POV-ish, OR-ish material in a lot of places it seems. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
sorry guys, I have to say something about the dispute half the page up. I will just make this remark and will not write anything further on this pointm, as much has been written already - I wil leave the issue to your jugdement. Being a Greek myself, when I read the article, I was estranged by the usage of the term 'Romans' in some parts of the article. In Greek, both modern and medieval, the usage and the meaning of the terms Romans and Romioi are not the same. It is not just a matter of using kathareuousa or dimotiki, the two terms bear different connotations. Romaios is a citizen of the Roman Empire (the Eastern one in this context) and was used as such, i.e. with political significane. On the other hand Romios was the word (derived from 'Roman') used by the Greek people to identify themselves as a people different both from the Romans of Rome (with regard to ethnicity and culture) and from the ancient Greeks (with regard to religion). In fact, most uneducated Greeks in later times would not even guess that the 'Romios' is anyhow connected with 'Roman', just as they would not realise the the word Rumeli stems from Rome. (Of course, educated people could understand the connection, that is why the scholar Dionysius Pyrrus incites his fellow country men not to call themselves Romans). The kathareuousa - dimotiki distinction does not apply, for two reasons: a) during the middle ages there was no distinction between kathareusousa and dimotiki, there was only the language (and dialects) spoken by the people and the official language (which initially was not even Greek, it was Latin, as you know). b) the kathareousa - dimotiki distinction means that a word or phrasing in dimotiki could be tranferred in kathareousa and vice versa, but this is not the case here. Romios could not be rendered into Romaios, since they had different connotations. Besides, while the state might use the term Romaioi to refer to all its citizens (greeks and non-greeks), the term Romioi referred to the Greek citizens of the empire only, the others would be called by their ethnic names (arvanites, armenioi etc). The use of the term Roman that estranged me most was in the quote: 'Scholar Rigas Feraios called "Bulgars and Arvanites, Armenians and Romans" to rise in arms against the Ottomans', as well as in the next quote from Makrygiannis. No Greek would expect to hear Makrygiannis (a demoticist) or Feraios utter the word 'roman', although Feraios did not wrtite in plain dimotiki (neither in plain kathareuousa) - indeed both passages use the term Romoioi in Greek. I understand the point I (and Deucalionite above) make may not be easy to grasp for a person who is not a native speaker of Greek, since in English there is only one word for both terms. To illustrate the way I understand my mother tongue: I could take pride in being called a Romios just as in being called a Greek or a Hellenas, but I would not take pride in being called a Roman (this is just an illustration - I don't really think I should take any pride in being a Greek and not being a green person from Mars:) However, if this article is to give a better understanding of the usage of the "names of the Greeks" to its readers, I think it should make this distinction clear, and use the term Greeks themselves would use in each context. What I suggest is to change the term Roman(s) to Romios(/oi) in the title and text of the 'Contest between the names Hellene, Roman, and Greek' section. The 'Romans (Ρωμαίοι) and Romioi (Ρωμιοί)' seems alright to me, as it gives adequate explanation of the 2 terms - besides, the term 'Romans' is more appopriate there, since it concerns official languange mainly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.169.208.134 ( talk) 11:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
In the article you write: "In 212 AD, Emperor Caracalla's Constitutio Antoniniana granted all free people in all Roman provinces citizenship. However, the Greeks transmogrified their newly acquired political title (Romans) and began to refer to themselves as Romioi (Romios/Ρωμιός for singular). The new term was created in order to establish a dualistic identity that represented the Greeks' Roman citizenship, as well as their Hellenic ancestry, culture, and language."
Maybe you know when "Romios" first emerged ? It was after 1453, and probably after 1500. Nowadays Romios means the Greek, but until the 1800s Romios and Roman (Romaios) were used interchangebly. So you see, the citizens of the eastern roman empire NEVER reffered to themselves as "Romios", but only as "Roman". More about the roots of the usage of romios you can find on a book written by George Metallinos, now former dean of the Athens University school of Theology, and a historian. It is called "Paganistic Hellenism or Hellenic Orthodoxy?" ( https://www.perizitito.gr/product.php?productid=60599&page=1 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Metallinos)
It has a couple of pages on the second half of the book where it addresses the usage of "Romios" and when we started to use it for the first time. I would also recommend reading "Chronography" by Theofanis, which starts at 284 and finishes at the 8th century. Although Theofanis does recognise that the Greek culture is dominant throughout the empire , he does not seem to think that the empire of the 8th century is any different than the empire of 284, being a continuation...the only differnce you might see is the total establishment of Christianity. So , saying that the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire called themselves "Romios(-oi)" is like saying that the native Indians called themselves "Americans", before even America was discovered...very misleading, really. Please change it.
-- Alexandros The G(r)eek
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.136.183 ( talk) 22:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The article currently has significanly more cleanup tags than any other Featured Article. Grateful if editor(s) interested in the area can address issues such as accuracy, neutrality and sourcing asap, thanks Tom B ( talk) 18:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Can someone highlight why and where this article fails in its factual accuracy and why the neutrality of this article is disputed? For anyone interested in engaging in any seemingly racist digs against so-called 'Greek' users, I am only asking in good faith to improve the article. By the way, I am removing infromation in the article that seems too esoteric (to put it kindly) or has not been sourced for a while. Politis ( talk) 15:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The tags are not all mine; but you can have some more. This article is a tendentious piece of ethnic boasting; to cite one example I have not yet tagged, quoting St. Paul as though "wise and foolish, Greek and barbarian" is intended to imply that the Greeks are wise and the barbarians foolish is original research.
As a private grievance, this still contains Deucalionite's presentation of Homer as history, and very unlikely history.
Most seriously, this contains what it need not have at all: one side, and only one side, of the question of the ethnicity of the inhabitants of Macedon. Silence would be acceptable, since it is also off-topic; but presenting half the case is not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
To add another example, Euripides' opinion on the superiority of Greeks is argued from Iphigenia in Aulis, line 1400-1; that's synthesis from a primary source - and forgets that the source in question is a play. That's Iphigeneia's opinion; whether it is the author's (as opposed to something he thought would appeal to his audience) is another question entirely. This is what reliable secondary sources are for. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
This article continues to have numerous factual, POV, and stylistic problems. The most fundamental problem it has is that, even though it presents a variety of sources clearly showing that 'Greek' has had many different meanings over the centuries, much of the article is written as though there was some eternal Platonic entity called 'Greeks' -- the fallacy of essentialism. There is copious anachronism ("national name"). The article uses many primary sources (Pausanias, Herodotus) as though they needed no interpretation. The article is tendentious. Finally, the writing is terrible, with many malapropisms ("Argives is an annotation...", "many naïve leaders"), peacock terms, fancy words where simple ones would do ("polyonymous"), and just generally poor English style. -- macrakis ( talk) 17:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
PMAnderson 22:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Calling Aristides of Athens an Athenian statesman? Can't the patriot who wrote this tell the difference between a Christian apologist and Aristides? To say nothing of the second century AD and the fifth century BC? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Quite true, the Suda does say that Tribonian was a pagan. The Suda says a lot of things, many of them crap; is there any reason to believe this one? Secondary sources, guys. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Absurd as stated; Danaans is not the name of Danaus in English, or any language known to man.
More seriously, it does not address the real question: who were the Danaoi known to Homer? Is Danaus a later creation, an artificial eponym, like Dorus or Ion? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
What the article claims, persistently, is that the Italians learned the word Greek from the Greek colonists in Sicily and Apulia. This is most unlikely; did the colonists use Graikoi of themselves? The transmission of Hellene to the West is another question. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
One does not, in a linguistic context, translate kata ethnikōn as Against the pagans, no matter what the translator has done. Pagan is not Greek; and is an anachronism. (Confusing it with the De Incarnatione, as his own article appears to do, because they were edited in the same volume is sheer carelessness.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson
[20] Undid removal of text which the justification "Remove arguable.". Since the editor believes there is something arguable, he should argue against it first, here.
Personally I think that there is nothing arguable in the sentence:
The Greeks are a polyonymous people; various names have been used by various peoples to refer to them, and, among those, even by the Greeks themselves. The onset of new historical eras occasionally brought about the adoption of a new national name: either entirely new or formerly old and sidelined, extracted from tradition or adopted from foreigners. Each was significant in its own time, and all can be used interchangeably.
and therefore I believe its removal is unjustified. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 18:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I am reverting; if I am rereverted, I shall add {{ dubious}} tags to the sentences I have removed, and consider putting up this dishonest piece of propaganda for deletion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Come to think of it, the assertion that Achilles' Hellenes are the Myrmedones is probably also debateable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:45, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It appears to me that there is confusion concerning this blanket text removal:
I would like to call User:Pmanderson to order, so that in the future he will refrain from characterizations and blanket text removals. If he thinks a sentence is not correct, then let us argue about it, but a blanket removal and gross characterizations about text show a strong POV from his part. He can try to impose it, this is wikipedia anyway, and he will probably manage to push through some of it. But this should be done in an orderly way. The suggestion to add tags to sentences is fine with me. Then these sentences can be discussed. My point is to help editing in a proper wikipedian way. User:Pmanderson can be bold but he should also assume good faith instead of making characterizations. Furthermore, he must understand that his actions are disputed and therefore have to be discussed under Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, instead of reverting. I therefore expect that he will restore the text and point to the individual issues, so that problems which may exist can be corrected, since there must be other ways for improvement apart from just removing text. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 21:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was under the impression that barbaroi meant "bearded ones." Is this not true? If it is, why isn't that included in this article? Best, Hydriotaphia 00:39, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Two things in this section need to be improved: (1) the significance of the reference to Oropos is unclear; why is Oropos being referred to here? Some context is needed. (2) The theory of migration to Italy, given in the last paragraph of this section, should be evaluated. What do scholars think of it? Is it plausible? What's the consensus? Hydriotaphia 00:54, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Colossus, many congratulations on this article. You've done quite a job. One question for you, though: don't you think "distortion" is an inappropriately normative, and therefore POV, word to use in this context? After all, you can only call something a semantic "distortion" if you have a preconceived notion of what the correct use of a word is; and the only way you can have a view of the correct use of a word is either to appeal to consensus or to a view of what is right and wrong, a view that would necessarily be controversial. So I would counsel you to change the word back to "change" or a related term—or to appeal to a consensus of some sort. Or am I missing something in your use of the word "distortion"? Again, warm congratulations on this article. Hydriotaphia 01:46, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, one can find writings from various Fathers of the Church that don't use the term Hellenas in that way. +MATIA ☎ 18:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
At the article Maniots, one may read that, in the time of Eastern Roman Emperor Leo VI "the Philosopher" (886-912), the Maniots were deemed pagan "Hellenes" (practitioners of pagan Greek culture), not part of Romiosyni— followers of the "Roman" religion. The isolated Maniots became Christians in the 9th century. If correct, this should be added to the "Hellenes" section. -- Wetman 01:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Hellen the mythological patriarch of the Hellenes and Graecus (grandson of Deucalion, brother of Latinus and I think nephew of Hellen) [1] [2]
Perhaps "οι καλούμενοι τότε μεν Γραικοί, νυν δ' Έλληνες" Αριστοτέλης, Μετεωρολογικά, 352, should be translated into "who were called then Graeci, but now Hellenes" instead of "Graeci who later came to be known as Hellenes". MATIA 19:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I think "here lived Selli" or "here Selli dwelt" or something similar. MATIA 00:06, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
After a point, probably before 1821, the term Romans (Ρωμαίοι) became Romioi (Ρωμηοί). The term was also used during the 20th century, "Ρωμιός αγάπησε Ρωμιά" was a popular song of Zambetas sung by Kokotas. We should also write something about the term Romanity (Ρωμιοσύνη). I've added some links, one more that I haven't yet added is Palamas and Romanity by John S. Romanides. MATIA 19:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
In 212 aD emperor Caracalla issued Constitutio Antoniniana that gave all free-born men of the Roman Empire full Roman citizenship. Since then the Greeks (among others) were called Romans. MATIA 23:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Some notes from Herodotus (not necessarily to be added) about Greco-Persian Wars and more:
"if we shall subdue these and the neighbours of these, who dwell in the land of Pelops the Phrygian, we shall cause the Persian land to have the same boundaries as the heaven of Zeus; since in truth upon no land will the sun look down which borders ours, but I with your help shall make all the lands into one land, having passed through the whole extent of Europe. For I am informed that things are so, namely that there is no city of men nor any race of human beings remaining, which will be able to come to a contest with us, when those whom I just now mentioned have been removed out of the way. Thus both those who have committed wrong against us will have the yoke of slavery, and also those who have not committed wrong."
Herodotus, BOOK VII, 8 c alternate translation
on book 5, the Battle of Thermopylae is described. Leonidas part in greek history can be compared with Alexander's thus mentioning him is justified.
8:144 "the bond of Hellenic race, by which we are of one blood and of one speech, the common temples of the gods and the common sacrifices, the manners of life which are the same for all"
τὸ Ἑλληνικόν, ἐὸν ὅμαιμόν τε καὶ ὁμόγλωσσον, καὶ θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι ἤθεά τε ὁμότροπα
about Macedons:
after describing Alexander I of Macedon having killed the envoys of Darius I.
5:22 "these descendants of Perdiccas are Hellenes, as they themselves say, I happen to know myself, and not only so, but I will prove in the succeeding history that they are Hellenes." MATIA 10:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I am thinking of a small comparison between Herodotus' above definition of Hellenikon, Isocrates', "Panegyricus", 50: "the title of Hellene a badge of education rather than of common descent" and Paul's Epistle to Galatians 2:27-28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" "27 ὅσοι γὰρ εἰς Χριστὸν ἐβαπτίσθητε, Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε. 28 οὐκ ἔνι ᾿Ιουδαῖος οὐδὲ ῞Ελλην, οὐκ ἔνι δοῦλος οὐδὲ ἐλεύθερος, οὐκ ἔνι ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ· πάντες γὰρ ὑμεῖς εἷς ἐστε ἐν Χριστῷ ᾿Ιησοῦ." MATIA 20:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added Hesiod and Caracalla. Later will add Hesiod references http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=Graecus&fk_files[]=35422 http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=Hellenic&fk_files[]=35422 http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=Hellen&fk_files[]=35422 probably after rearranging (+1) the footnotes and gathering more info. Hesiod has nice stuff on Macedon too. MATIA 19:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
We need to be extremely wary on further addition of information. Given the scope of the subject, this article can only be practical if it remains concise and that requires focus on the overview and not being extensive. It's already gone overboard with 38Kb of information, surpassing the maximum of 33Kb, and there's still one last section pending on the post-Independence era. Aspiring to squeeze as many facts as possible is counter-productive and wont improve the article but only overwhelm the reader with overinformation, while an average reader will very easily get bored away. I learned this when I first started this article. As large as the current version may appear, my first drafts were almost twice as large, the result of my attempts to include as many sources as possible. If you check the history of the pre redirect page (in Greek (name)) you'll notice that I had to cut down on large chunks of information in order to maintain simplicity and not lose the reader, which really is the only way to go. If information is deemed necessary to readability, then at least it should be integrated in the main body in a way without adding length to the article.
I removed the edits on Graecus in the "Hellenes" section because they're already mentioned in the first line of the "Greeks and Yunani" section, and repetitive information will only take up already much needed space. Colossus 23:44, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Article size is mostly a problem for editing using certain browsers. I agree on the ideas about cleanup, readability etc.
Graecus is indeed mentioned later (actually linked and Greeks mentioned as a Boeotian tribe), but Hellen is not mentioned at all and I believe I chose the proper place to cite Hesiod. It's probably the oldest source for both Greeks and Hellenes, considering that Hesiod recorded myths that existed before him.
This "Greeks were called after Graecus those who followed Hellenic customs, and Hellen named Hellenes those who were called Greeks" was a merge of two phrases from project gutenberg's translation. Perhaps you can rephrase it and put it back - for example "those who followed Hellenic customs were called Greeks after Graecus and Hellen renamed them to Hellenes". Hesiod's phrases also agrees with Aristotle's "Meteorologica, I, 352b".
That's my only objection, the rest changes on your edit seem fine to me :) MATIA 01:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Nice job Colossus! If you can add Ρωμηός/Ρωμιός on Romans. MATIA 15:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm disappointed that no one bothered to comment my objection in the FAC, so I'll repeat it here.
There are two problems with the article:
Try to keep in mind that we're writing not only for our own enjoyment, but also to provide others with properly structured and sorted information.
Peter Isotalo 11:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Believe me Peter there are a lot of people who need those notes to verify the quotes. I've already mentioned that on the FaC discussion. MATIA 13:03, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I've just re-read Wikipedia:Footnote3, Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles/Generic citations, but I can't understand your objections. MATIA 13:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
"Try to keep in mind that we're writing not only for our own enjoyment, but also to provide others with properly structured and sorted information", "cluttering the text, needlessly over-referencing basic facts, making the article look pseudo-academic". I still can't understand these. Could you possibly explain what you meant or give examples (how it is now and what's your suggested change)? If you check encyclopedias or dictionaries that are public domain like the 1911, you 'll see that many articles have such footnotes. MATIA 15:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I have questioned neither the use of quotes nor the amount of references used, Colossus. I questioned the way double-references have been made first by citing the source in the text and then adding a very pointless footnote that points to the same source, except with a page number. Should I assume we're actually agreeing on this?
MATIA, you're doing exactly what I asked Macrakis not to do; trying to make it personal. Is this really the way you want to discuss things?
Peter Isotalo 08:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Peter, certain phrases you used before might be interpreted as disrespect to other wikipedians. Although this, and probably every, article can be improved, the long debate about the footnotes doesn't help that improvement. I do agree with some of your comments and I will have them on my mind. I believe that eventually, some changes will be made that shall satisfy your concerns as well. With regards, MATIA 09:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I find the current name for this article somewhat ambiguous. "Names of the Greeks" (quite amusingly) brings to my mind: «Kostas, Maria, Nikos etc». Would "Names for the Greek nation" or "Names for the Greek people" not be more accurate/appropriate? I propose moving the article but would of course like some feedback before undertaking any such action. Please offer your opinions. (unsigned by User:Contributor175 at 14:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC))
I must agree wih Contributor175, this is a very confusing and ambiguous title. It sounds amateurish, and confusing. hdstubbs
While I'd certainly agree that the name is adequate, and I don't have any strong feelings either way regarding whether it should be changed or not, I think it could probably be improved, and whether you think it's:
if you also feel it could be improved, should we start discussing possible names? After all, just complaining about the title won't do anything; once we have alternatives, we can start voting on whether to rename it to something. - Silence 07:42, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
09:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Baad 09:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Accuracy is more important than being 'clumsy'. Also, "Names of the Greeks" is extremely clumsy. Maybe we could use geography, Historical names for peoples of the Aegean Penisula or is it the southern tip of the Balkan Penisula? How about History of Greek nomenclature or History of Greek monikers? hdstubbs
Why are the notes in 75% font? Ingoolemo talk 05:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
If you are going to use the word "polyonymous" in the opening paragraph, especially as the predicate of a sentence, then somebody should create a wiktionary definition for polyonymy and link to it. Babajobu 08:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
polyonymous [ [3]] and polyonymy [ [4]] in wiktionary. -- FocalPoint 15:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
And I'm so glad because I never would have found this article without the feature. It's really amazing and immensely complete. Congrats! -- Atlastawake 13:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
x
It is possible that the name "Greece" (and Graecia) may derive from word "Crete".
Cretes (or else, Cretans, Kretans) is the first people that had trading contacts with Italy (i.e. Latins, Etruscans, Ausones etc), in Minoan period (3rd and 2nd millennium BC). Originally, Cretes lived at coasts of Middle Greece (Aetolia, Attica) as Curetes or Graecoi or Graecians or Graëces. Later, they migrated to island Crete (as Cretans or Minoites) and to Caria, in Asia Minor, (as Cares).
Italians (and the other Europeans) keep this original name for posterior Helenes, too. So, did Asians with name of first Greek tribe (i.e. the Ionians) that they knew (through trade).
-- IonnKorr 04:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Here could be discussed the edits recently suggested about the main article. Deucalionite introduced some changes that seemed to disagree with the main article itself. Perhaps these or some of these changes could be listed here so they can be debated. Colossus 00:23, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Seems that Wikipedia prefers anything that "does not conflict with the overall article" instead of historical accuracy. Also, just because an article becomes famous, does not mean it is perfect or that its content are immutable. In fact, the absence of the Romaic identity being a specifically Greek identity of the Middle Ages shows that the article needs some good historically accurate tweaking. So, let us put things in their proper context.
I know that the sources I placed (albeit not good ones I agree though I can provide better) do refer to the existence of a Romaic identity and not just a Roman identity. Aldux stated that what is important in the articles I edited (Names of the Greeks and Byzantine Empire) is historiography. Personally, "historiography" has led many in Western European scholarship to deem the Byzantine Empire as a "collapsing civilization" since its birth. Even if one were to deem the Eastern Roman Empire as Greco-Roman, it does not change the fact that the majority of its inhabitants were Greeks and that the Greeks had a specific name that they used to refer to themselves at the time. That name being "Romioi" (or Romaions or whatever name used other than just Roman).
To be honest, I prefer social analysis rather than historiography. The Greek mentality is of the utmost importance in better understanding how the Greeks perceived themselves throughout their history. The Greek mentality was, and has always been, dualistic. In the case of the medieval Greeks, they called themselves "Romioi" (and I don't care if the English language has never seen the word "Romioi" for it does not change the fact that that is what the Greeks called themselves during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages). The question is, why? The reason why the Greeks called themselves "Romioi" was because they maintained their citizenship as Romans, but at the same time they did not want to forsake their own Hellenic roots. Even though the meaning of the term "Hellene" meant "pagan" at the time, its other meanings (an ethnic, racial, cultural, linguistic Greek) were merely transferred into the new word "Romios." So, "Romios" came to mean "a Roman citizen of Greek descent/culture/language and follower of Eastern Orthodox Christianity." See the dualism?
I know that the Byzantine Empire was deemed by its administrators as the "Empire of the Romans" (Imperium Romanorum). However, a social analysis study requires that one distinugish the difference between people in a political adminstration and people who are outside of a political administration. I am sure people already know that Eastern Roman imperial politics were very complex and secretive (to an extent). Now, why would some (or even many) Byzantine officials want to deem their empire as just Roman or their citizens as simply Romans? To put things in their proper social and political context, Byzantine officials were mainly focused on how to best increase or consolidate the sphere of influence (whether directly or indirectly) of the Eastern Roman Empire. Using the phrase "Empire of the Romans" instead of "Empire of the Greco-Romans" or "Empire of the Romioi" shows that Byzantine officials wanted to offset foreign imperial plans of expansion into Roman and ex-Roman territories (in a sense, to make foreign empires still think that the Byzantines were just like the very powerful old Romans capable of defeating armies and maintaining territories for vast periods of time). Moreover, it was a phrase that had prestige at the time even though the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. Constantinople was the new Rome of the time and the officials were simply taking a bath in all of the glory. The Byzantine officials would use the phrase to either follow in old Roman traditions or to simply maintain an aura of power that would emanate beyond Byzantine territories. To put it simply, the officials could care less what name they used just as long as it served their political, economic, and social agendas.
Byzantine officials state, for instance, that the citizens of the Byzantine Empire are just Romans. Just because it is official or because there was an official Byzantine consensus on the matter, does that make it true? Not really. The Greeks were aware of who they were and called themselves Romioi even though their officials still preferred to call their citizens "Romans." Now, you find yourself in the time of Heraclius' administration. Heraclius made the administrators use Greek instead of Latin, but that did not automatically lead to Greeks changing their language from Latin to Greek. In fact, Greeks were still speaking Greek way before Heraclius was crowned emperor in 610 A.D.
Look, I have no intention of causing needless trouble. However, I am for historical accuracy and even if that accuracy leads to the sacrificing of article aesthetics, then it is for the better. Better educating people about history when they use the Internet is a more important cause than merely focusing one's energies on making articles look pretty. Even though aesthetics are important, it should come second to historical accuracy. Over and out.
- Deucalionite 12/6/05 9:47 P.M. EST
I might have written somewhere before that, Romans (Ρωμαίοι) has evolved into Romioi (Ρωμιοί). I have not seen the term Romaions before, but I think it's the same thing we 're talking about. If you read the article more carefully, you'll see that those people weren't Romans with the original meaning of the term, but they used that term and gave it a new meaning (after all the people of Roman Empire got Roman Citizenship), the meaning of that identity you describe. Take the time and read the external links of the article, and the article itself, carefully. And I must note that the aesthetics in a Featured Article are very important - what you should have done in the first place, is write these paragraphs here, instead of changing parts of the article that you might have misunderstood. Perhaps some things need clarification but if you believe that this article uses the term Romans with a very strict sense, I think you have misunderstood something. +MATIA ☎ 11:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Romioi is just the English transliteration of the Greek name Ρωμιοί, and Romaioi of Ρωμαίοι, each representing respectively the demotic and katharevousa of the language. Romans is the English translation of the same terms. Distinguishing between Romans and Romaions creates a false apprehension of the reality. The Greeks did not suddenly call themselves Romans only to realize then after that they were not really Romans. They called themselves Romioi automatically after Caracella's decree for the specific reasons I have stated previously. I still dont understand the point you're trying to make here. What's the difference between Romans and Romioi, besides the obvious lingual variation. Where the people you call Romans and Romioi not one and the same? If so, there's no need in re-inventing the wheel. THe standar English term for desrcibing the Greeks in the middle ages, is Byzantines or Romans. Why the need to diverge from it? Colossus 01:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The entire discussion about Romaioi and Romioi is pedantry. Romioi is simply the demotic version of Romaioi. And since there is no equivalent of a demotic and katharevousa in the English or any other language, now or during the middle ages, Romans is the translation for both. Colossus 22:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The edit in question: to me it seems mostly like redundant or not properly worded clarifications. If someone reads Constitutio Antoniniana he can learn the details about Caracalla and the extension of Roman citizenship from Rome to the whole Empire. The phrase around "dualistic connotation", is not understandable to me. I don't know what else to say. What do others think? +MATIA ☎ 19:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps Deucalionite means the westerners who are influenced by Gibbon or Hieronymus Wolf. +MATIA ☎ 21:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Matia, you're too good :-) To be honest, I'm only an editor like thousands, and relatively recent also; and I never even went near to write a featured article or an article that could be proposed for that :-) As for writing that "Romaios" meant "Christian" you're wright; I'lll say more, it meant orthodox (unheretical, that is) Christian. I think it was C. Mango who wrote about this, but I'll search for the book. What I doubt is the distinction between "Romaios" and "Romios" has really sense, if it's not, like Colossus said, pedantry. Ciao! ;-) Aldux 12:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll try a partial revert later today. +MATIA ☎ 13:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I've seen somewhere that Saint Athanasius of Alexandria used the term Romania (Ρωμανία) for the Eastern Roman Empire around 400 AD and I found at CCEL the phrase "With regard to the wider question, Athanasius expresses reverence for that bishopric `because it is an Apostolic throne,' and `for Rome, because it is the metropolis of Romania'". +MATIA ☎ 22:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone can start these entries in Wiktionary and link them into the Wiki article's text. Wiktionary allows for a detailed treatment. In Wiktionary, the entries should be in Greek characters. Alexander 007 02:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a couple of sentences in the beginning of the article regarding how Georgian people used to call (and still call) Greeks. These sentences were taken exactly as they appear in the page for Greece under the heading "Name". I think that apart from being very interesting that Georgians think of Greeks as Wise people, it also completes the list of how people around the world call Greeks and gives more meaning to the word "polyonymous". I am open for discussion on this change and wait for your comments. NikoSilver 19:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The article is not very clear on that. Who exactly was called Selloi by whom? Also, why is the "Iones" name in the East lumped together with the "Graeci" name in the West? I see no reason why there should not be separate "Graeci" and "Iones" sections. dab (ᛏ) 06:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
This has been removed from after Caracalla:
Romaios is standard Greek for Roman, and can be attested since Polybius. Please do not replace this kerfluffle. Septentrionalis 18:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there a problem with the references in the last paragraph of
"Hellene" comes to mean "pagan"? I mean it seems that the references 32,33,34 are wrong. Have 33 and 34 been swapped? And about 32, I can't find this sentence in the original texte of the Acts of the Apostles (neither in English nor in French).
I try to translate this article for the french WP, so that it would be very nice if you can help me. (You can also get in touch wih me
there) -Thanks
Good initiative. Nothing I want to modify right now. I think it would be good to have other Greek topic pages linked to this one and perhaps more links attached to this one. Politis 18:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
User:Semioli claims in his edit summary that these are dictated by the Manual of Style; I will refer to Manual the prove this user's claims wrong:
User:Semioli claims: Avoid AD when redundant (see MOS)
User:Semioli claims: "Pagan", as opposed to "Christian", is capitalized)
I have thus proceeded to edit the article accordingly. Contributor175 14:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Semioli 16:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I am writing in regard to the recent change initiated by myself at the header section of this (great) article. Before my edit it read:
I thought that this narrowed down a generalized usage of the term to Jews and their views alone. I am not an expert on the subject but I do suspect that by that time, a "Hellene" was anyone in the Hellenistic lifestyle (theaters, gyms etc) and religion (the syncretized Greco-Roman religion?). So I changed the original to:
Pmanderson further changed this to:
I feel that this, new version, again brings the article to the former, narrowed down view of the term. Again, I note that I am not an expert on the subject, but it would seem to me rather odd if this usage was confined to Judea and Jews alone.
By the way, a citation about St Paul's intentions on using "Hellene" would be the famous "there is neither Greek nor Jew" phrase.-- Michalis Famelis (talk) 16:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello. A translation has been done on :fr and the article was subbmitted to be a featured article. Some problems of pertinence were raised and some contributors think this article should not be FA. If you can read french, please visit fr:Wikipédia:Proposition articles de qualité/Noms des Grecs, otherwise, you have to know that many find this article POV because it presents only the "official history" written by Greeks after their war of independance (and which is quite far of the reality). -- NeuCeu 09:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
{{
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: |pages=
has extra text (
help)There was yet another centre of Hellenism in the Balkans, in Constantinople itself, for the Greeks were not only heirs to Hellas, but also to Byzantium
From ancient Greece the modern country inherited a sophisticated culture and a language that has been documented for almost three millennia. The language of Periclean Athens in the 5th century BC and the present-day language of the Greeks are recognizably one and the same; few languages can demonstrate such continuity. From the Byzantine Empire it has inherited Eastern Orthodox Christianity and from Ottoman rule attitudes and values that continue to be of significance, not least in shaping the country's political culture.
Ah, I see. These articles (En and Fr versions) obviously need the attention of experts. Personally, I am not in a position to assess the significance of your points. What I know for sure (since I live in Greece) is that the extreme majority of both Arvanites and Aromanians self-identify as Greeks (actually, even our President Karolos Papoulias is one), speak Greek, and are Greek Orthodox. The relevant wikilinked articles are pretty sourced on that. Given that self-identification, language, religion and place of birth are the primary factors defining ethnicity, I don't know if that omission is damning for the FA status of this article (Note: titled Names of the Greeks, not Greeks). However, I wouldn't object in its elaboration in due weight. •NikoSilver• 12:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
On a lighter note, I'm glad both French and Greeks understand these concepts of 'continuity'. Maybe this is the reason why we have been identified as the most nationalists in Europe! citation needed Hopefully, members of other nations will manage to understand concepts such as Hellenism for their own (which has nothing to do with nationality, or ethnicity, but with values -see #2), and then we'll have less trouble maliciously enforcing our point of view worldwide! •NikoSilver• 13:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The comments in the French WP are very pertinent. The current article is written as though "the Greeks" refers to exactly the same concept through the centuries, and simply presents the different names for this one concept. But in fact the definition of being Greek has changed quite a bit through the centuries, and the different names only partly correspond to this. Projecting the modern definition back into the past is unhistorical and misleading. The current article does not do a good job of reflecting the true historical complexity of the situation. -- Macrakis 14:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Having read and seen the play "Birds" I do not recall any supervisor of the birds. I think that it was Epops -an ancient king transformed to a bird- that taught them how to speak. Can you be a little more precise in that part? Thank you! 83.235.233.83 11:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
After the name was extended to all peoples south of Mount Olympus, however, it still left out those of common origin living in the north. One factor contributing to this was their refusal to participate in the Persian Wars, which were considered a vital affair for all Hellenes; prior to the wars, representatives of these tribes had been accepted in the Olympic Games and competed alongside other Hellenes 14.
14 For example, King Alcon and King Tharypas of Mollosus, Alexander I and Archelaus of Macedonia
The above footnote doesn't fit with the text as it has chronological and factual errors as follows:
1. Archelaus lived after the Persian Wars and set up an "Olympia" at Dion in Macedonia. He did not compete at the games at Olympia.
2. Herodotus mentions Alcon as a suitor of the daughter of Kleisthenes of Sicyon but nowhere mentions his participation at Olympia.
3. Tharypas is mentioned by Thucydides around the time of the Peloponesian War - again well after the Persian Wars. Again, I am unaware of any mention of Tharypas as a competitor at Olympia.
Only Alexander I possibly competed at Olympia prior to the Persian Wars.
It should also be mentioned that the representatives competing at Olympia from Macedon where originally kings (Alexander I for example) as at that time (pre 4th century BC) only the Macedonian royal family where considered as being sufficiently "Hellenic" by the Hellanodikai at Olympia.
The text and/or footnote therefore needs to be amended in light of the above inaccuracies.
Thucydides calls the Acarnanians, Aetolians,[15] Epirotes and Macedonians barbarians, but does so in a strictly linguistic sense.
This is confusing without further elucidation as to why they where considered so "linguistically" - i.e. were the Epirote, West Greek and Macedonian dialects sufficiently different/archaic so as to be considered "barbaric" at the time of Thucydides? Leaving the sentence as it is implies that the language of these peoples was something other than a dialect of Greek.
When the Athenian orator Demosthenes called the Macedonians worse than barbarians in his Third Philippic directed at Philip II of Macedon, he did so with respect to the culture they demonstrated as foreigners not adhering to proper Hellenic standards, and did not raise the issue of their origin
What is meant by the phrase "not adhering to proper Hellenic standards" is ambiguous and needs some explanation - for example the fact that the Macedonian political institution was that of a "Homeric" style monarchy rather than a democratic or oligarchic city state, etc. I think such differences need to be made clearer, maybe by way of footnote.
What are other peoples' opinions on these issues?
Sattlersjaw 11:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1.Archelaos Perdikas or Arhelaus Perdikkas Macedonian king. He reportedly participated in the Olympics in 408 BCE,and won the race of the four-horse chariot in Delphi [6] Alexander I donated a statue of himself at Delphi after 479, and Archelaos took part in the Pythian Games(Delphi) [7] [8]
2.About Greeks labelled barbarian in antiquity [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 06:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
3.Ancient remains that have been discovered in Aiani prove that the ancient Hellenistic Macedonian society spoke and wrote in Greek. Overturning,once and for all,the common accepted belief that Upper Macedonia was both socially and culturally isolated from the rest of ancient Greece.On the Contrary by the (6)Sixth Century BC Hellenism in Upper Macedonia was already at a high economic,artistic and cultural level.Inhabitants of this area lived in well-planned cities and not in nomadic groups depending on farming and animal husbandry-BRITANNICA VIDEO [10] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.0.219 ( talk) 17:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
What the hell are Graecans??? All the references I've seen about this are from derivative works from Wikipedia... Citation needed???... Manuel Anastácio 16:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
And why can't I find any town called Trehine, except in this article and his translations???... Manuel Anastácio 20:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be Trachis??? Manuel Anastácio 19:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The leader of the Greek War of Independence began his Declaration with a phrase similar to the above: "The time has come, O men, Hellenes". Please review your sources, you can't invent leaders because there is emphasis in an essay. The word implies a status which didn't exist in the Greek War of Independence. Often Greek texts in order to emphasize the help someone provided describe him/her with words that are translated as "leader", such as "αρχηγός", "πρωτεργάτης", "πρωτομάστορας" though these are only exaggerations. See if this was the case and please tell who your source states as "the leader".
Alexandros Ypsilantis was the official leader of the Greek revolution. The Greek revolution was organized by Filiki Eteria (a Greek secret organization) (The leading team was called the "Authority"). Alexandros Ypsilantis was elected by the “Authority” as “Επίτροπος της Αρχής” (Epitropos tis Arxis) which means “ the overlord of the Authority”. He had the general leading of the revolution and he was considered by everyone as leader! Seleukosa 16:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
There's a mention about Aristophanes, "The Birds", 199 - but I don't find nothing about that sense of the word "barbarian" in the whole of Aristophane's text. Could someone tell me what is said in the text? I only find the reference to the barbarian god who speaks with noises, not what is said in this article... Manuel Anastácio 22:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't find, also, the citation "an illiterate man is also a barbarian" in "The Clouds" of Aristophanes! One carachter tells the other is an ignorant and a babarian, but not like is said in the article. Manuel Anastácio 22:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
in the greek text is the term barbarian in the spanish translation could be something else
Oh! the ignoramus! the barbarian! Socrates to Strepsiades [11] [12] [13] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 05:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The original phrase is "άνθρωπoς αμαθές ουτωσί και βάρβαρος!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 06:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The newcomers Dorians (the Macedonians including) did not exist and did not participate in Trojan war
The Dorian invasion is dated two generations after the Trojan War. [14] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 05:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"When the ATHENIANS attacked the HELLENES" Thukydides, 3.62;
"And this was the first naval victory that the city (ATHENS) had against the HELLENES, after the destruction." [Plutarch, Phokion 6]
"Even though the LACEDAEMONIANS had combated the HELLENES many times only one of their kings had ever died in action..." [Plutarch, Agis 21]
"The CRETANS, when the HELLENES sent to ask aid from them... acted as follows..." [Herodotos 7.169]
MORE EXAMPLES [15] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.255.234 ( talk) 06:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
As Hellenes was named a tribe in modern day Thessaly,Greece.Latter the name expanded to include all Greeks. Eagle of Pontus ( talk) 15:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The article needs some maps. The addition of Image:Pelasgians.jpg is a good start, but there have to be other 4-5 maps, one for each period to show the places of residence of people who called themselves Greeks (or any of their other names).-- FocalPoint ( talk) 06:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This article needs a thorough quality review. I doubt if it is really Featured Article material as it claims. I removed or tagged a few bits, but I'm sure there is more. Unsourced, POV-ish, OR-ish material in a lot of places it seems. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
sorry guys, I have to say something about the dispute half the page up. I will just make this remark and will not write anything further on this pointm, as much has been written already - I wil leave the issue to your jugdement. Being a Greek myself, when I read the article, I was estranged by the usage of the term 'Romans' in some parts of the article. In Greek, both modern and medieval, the usage and the meaning of the terms Romans and Romioi are not the same. It is not just a matter of using kathareuousa or dimotiki, the two terms bear different connotations. Romaios is a citizen of the Roman Empire (the Eastern one in this context) and was used as such, i.e. with political significane. On the other hand Romios was the word (derived from 'Roman') used by the Greek people to identify themselves as a people different both from the Romans of Rome (with regard to ethnicity and culture) and from the ancient Greeks (with regard to religion). In fact, most uneducated Greeks in later times would not even guess that the 'Romios' is anyhow connected with 'Roman', just as they would not realise the the word Rumeli stems from Rome. (Of course, educated people could understand the connection, that is why the scholar Dionysius Pyrrus incites his fellow country men not to call themselves Romans). The kathareuousa - dimotiki distinction does not apply, for two reasons: a) during the middle ages there was no distinction between kathareusousa and dimotiki, there was only the language (and dialects) spoken by the people and the official language (which initially was not even Greek, it was Latin, as you know). b) the kathareousa - dimotiki distinction means that a word or phrasing in dimotiki could be tranferred in kathareousa and vice versa, but this is not the case here. Romios could not be rendered into Romaios, since they had different connotations. Besides, while the state might use the term Romaioi to refer to all its citizens (greeks and non-greeks), the term Romioi referred to the Greek citizens of the empire only, the others would be called by their ethnic names (arvanites, armenioi etc). The use of the term Roman that estranged me most was in the quote: 'Scholar Rigas Feraios called "Bulgars and Arvanites, Armenians and Romans" to rise in arms against the Ottomans', as well as in the next quote from Makrygiannis. No Greek would expect to hear Makrygiannis (a demoticist) or Feraios utter the word 'roman', although Feraios did not wrtite in plain dimotiki (neither in plain kathareuousa) - indeed both passages use the term Romoioi in Greek. I understand the point I (and Deucalionite above) make may not be easy to grasp for a person who is not a native speaker of Greek, since in English there is only one word for both terms. To illustrate the way I understand my mother tongue: I could take pride in being called a Romios just as in being called a Greek or a Hellenas, but I would not take pride in being called a Roman (this is just an illustration - I don't really think I should take any pride in being a Greek and not being a green person from Mars:) However, if this article is to give a better understanding of the usage of the "names of the Greeks" to its readers, I think it should make this distinction clear, and use the term Greeks themselves would use in each context. What I suggest is to change the term Roman(s) to Romios(/oi) in the title and text of the 'Contest between the names Hellene, Roman, and Greek' section. The 'Romans (Ρωμαίοι) and Romioi (Ρωμιοί)' seems alright to me, as it gives adequate explanation of the 2 terms - besides, the term 'Romans' is more appopriate there, since it concerns official languange mainly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.169.208.134 ( talk) 11:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
In the article you write: "In 212 AD, Emperor Caracalla's Constitutio Antoniniana granted all free people in all Roman provinces citizenship. However, the Greeks transmogrified their newly acquired political title (Romans) and began to refer to themselves as Romioi (Romios/Ρωμιός for singular). The new term was created in order to establish a dualistic identity that represented the Greeks' Roman citizenship, as well as their Hellenic ancestry, culture, and language."
Maybe you know when "Romios" first emerged ? It was after 1453, and probably after 1500. Nowadays Romios means the Greek, but until the 1800s Romios and Roman (Romaios) were used interchangebly. So you see, the citizens of the eastern roman empire NEVER reffered to themselves as "Romios", but only as "Roman". More about the roots of the usage of romios you can find on a book written by George Metallinos, now former dean of the Athens University school of Theology, and a historian. It is called "Paganistic Hellenism or Hellenic Orthodoxy?" ( https://www.perizitito.gr/product.php?productid=60599&page=1 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Metallinos)
It has a couple of pages on the second half of the book where it addresses the usage of "Romios" and when we started to use it for the first time. I would also recommend reading "Chronography" by Theofanis, which starts at 284 and finishes at the 8th century. Although Theofanis does recognise that the Greek culture is dominant throughout the empire , he does not seem to think that the empire of the 8th century is any different than the empire of 284, being a continuation...the only differnce you might see is the total establishment of Christianity. So , saying that the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire called themselves "Romios(-oi)" is like saying that the native Indians called themselves "Americans", before even America was discovered...very misleading, really. Please change it.
-- Alexandros The G(r)eek
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.136.183 ( talk) 22:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The article currently has significanly more cleanup tags than any other Featured Article. Grateful if editor(s) interested in the area can address issues such as accuracy, neutrality and sourcing asap, thanks Tom B ( talk) 18:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Can someone highlight why and where this article fails in its factual accuracy and why the neutrality of this article is disputed? For anyone interested in engaging in any seemingly racist digs against so-called 'Greek' users, I am only asking in good faith to improve the article. By the way, I am removing infromation in the article that seems too esoteric (to put it kindly) or has not been sourced for a while. Politis ( talk) 15:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The tags are not all mine; but you can have some more. This article is a tendentious piece of ethnic boasting; to cite one example I have not yet tagged, quoting St. Paul as though "wise and foolish, Greek and barbarian" is intended to imply that the Greeks are wise and the barbarians foolish is original research.
As a private grievance, this still contains Deucalionite's presentation of Homer as history, and very unlikely history.
Most seriously, this contains what it need not have at all: one side, and only one side, of the question of the ethnicity of the inhabitants of Macedon. Silence would be acceptable, since it is also off-topic; but presenting half the case is not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
To add another example, Euripides' opinion on the superiority of Greeks is argued from Iphigenia in Aulis, line 1400-1; that's synthesis from a primary source - and forgets that the source in question is a play. That's Iphigeneia's opinion; whether it is the author's (as opposed to something he thought would appeal to his audience) is another question entirely. This is what reliable secondary sources are for. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
This article continues to have numerous factual, POV, and stylistic problems. The most fundamental problem it has is that, even though it presents a variety of sources clearly showing that 'Greek' has had many different meanings over the centuries, much of the article is written as though there was some eternal Platonic entity called 'Greeks' -- the fallacy of essentialism. There is copious anachronism ("national name"). The article uses many primary sources (Pausanias, Herodotus) as though they needed no interpretation. The article is tendentious. Finally, the writing is terrible, with many malapropisms ("Argives is an annotation...", "many naïve leaders"), peacock terms, fancy words where simple ones would do ("polyonymous"), and just generally poor English style. -- macrakis ( talk) 17:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
PMAnderson 22:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Calling Aristides of Athens an Athenian statesman? Can't the patriot who wrote this tell the difference between a Christian apologist and Aristides? To say nothing of the second century AD and the fifth century BC? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Quite true, the Suda does say that Tribonian was a pagan. The Suda says a lot of things, many of them crap; is there any reason to believe this one? Secondary sources, guys. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Absurd as stated; Danaans is not the name of Danaus in English, or any language known to man.
More seriously, it does not address the real question: who were the Danaoi known to Homer? Is Danaus a later creation, an artificial eponym, like Dorus or Ion? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
What the article claims, persistently, is that the Italians learned the word Greek from the Greek colonists in Sicily and Apulia. This is most unlikely; did the colonists use Graikoi of themselves? The transmission of Hellene to the West is another question. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
One does not, in a linguistic context, translate kata ethnikōn as Against the pagans, no matter what the translator has done. Pagan is not Greek; and is an anachronism. (Confusing it with the De Incarnatione, as his own article appears to do, because they were edited in the same volume is sheer carelessness.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson
[20] Undid removal of text which the justification "Remove arguable.". Since the editor believes there is something arguable, he should argue against it first, here.
Personally I think that there is nothing arguable in the sentence:
The Greeks are a polyonymous people; various names have been used by various peoples to refer to them, and, among those, even by the Greeks themselves. The onset of new historical eras occasionally brought about the adoption of a new national name: either entirely new or formerly old and sidelined, extracted from tradition or adopted from foreigners. Each was significant in its own time, and all can be used interchangeably.
and therefore I believe its removal is unjustified. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 18:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I am reverting; if I am rereverted, I shall add {{ dubious}} tags to the sentences I have removed, and consider putting up this dishonest piece of propaganda for deletion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Come to think of it, the assertion that Achilles' Hellenes are the Myrmedones is probably also debateable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:45, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It appears to me that there is confusion concerning this blanket text removal:
I would like to call User:Pmanderson to order, so that in the future he will refrain from characterizations and blanket text removals. If he thinks a sentence is not correct, then let us argue about it, but a blanket removal and gross characterizations about text show a strong POV from his part. He can try to impose it, this is wikipedia anyway, and he will probably manage to push through some of it. But this should be done in an orderly way. The suggestion to add tags to sentences is fine with me. Then these sentences can be discussed. My point is to help editing in a proper wikipedian way. User:Pmanderson can be bold but he should also assume good faith instead of making characterizations. Furthermore, he must understand that his actions are disputed and therefore have to be discussed under Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, instead of reverting. I therefore expect that he will restore the text and point to the individual issues, so that problems which may exist can be corrected, since there must be other ways for improvement apart from just removing text. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 21:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)