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Charles Harrington Elster, in his book, 'The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations' disagrees. He specifically says that the word came to English through the French, and that the K pronunciation (with the C spelling) is the simple perpetuation of a Latin pedanticism. Does anyone have further information on the etymology of the word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.113.198 ( talk) 17:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I know that since it's a proper name for a basketball team this technically doesn't matter but it's been annoying the hell out of me: shouldn't they be called the Boston Celts? Vicious203 ( talk) 14:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe et cetera ought to not be the last word in that sentence in order to avoid confusion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.87.207 ( talk) 05:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Early in the article it says that, "The English word [celt] is modern, attested from 1707". Later it says, "the term 'Celt' is probably too deep-rooted to be replaced and — what is more important — it has the definition that we choose to give it." These views I think are widely accepted in academia.
Yet in the middle we hear about, "Another area of Europe, inhabited by the historical celts ... retains a strong Celtic cultural identity and acknowledgement of their own Celtic past." Etc etc. Suddenly academia seems forgotten and we have a Wikipedian who not only knows who has and who has not got a celtic past and history, but can judge whether or not they acknowledge this properly themselves. There is not a single citation in the section called "Modern uses". Is it right to suggest that the whole section should be replaced by something more sound? -- Nigelj ( talk) 17:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
When I was a schoolboy (60s) everybody (around Chicago) said "selt", I never heard "kelt". I have kept my old habit, which curiously seems to actually annoy some people. Anyway, when people write "Celt" but say "Kelt", it just makes our poor English language more confusing; we could do with less words like "pretty" or "women", not more. So, if you mean "Kelt", why not write KELT? If I see it that way, I'll pronounce it "kelt" too! This latter pronunciation has indeed been gaining ground, and that's because people have changed their (linguistic) behavior (I think it all started with some snobs who wanted to sound more like German professors, but who knows--the French have never fallen for it); so, why don't y'all change your spelling behavior too, then everything will be simpler, and when old farts like me die off, everybody will say "kelt" and write "Kelt" and that nasty old "selt" will be as forgotten as "piss-eez" (the former traditional pronunciation of "Pisces"). Jakob37 ( talk) 15:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The OED says /selt/ and /kelt/ are equally acceptable. As long as the OED keeps saying so, you are perfectly free to pronounce the word either way without the need to apologize to anyone. -- dab (𒁳) 12:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
There are two tags in the first line of the article saying that Celtus/Celti are only 'dubious' Latin bases for the word Celt. Who disputes this? On what grounds? If no one can come up with a realistic dispute, then we can remove the tags. -- Nigelj ( talk) 13:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into this. The tags were mine, and you have interpreted their motivation correctly, but I couldn't be bothered to look into it myself at the time. -- dab (𒁳) 12:10, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Mark Kurlansky says in his book "Salt: A World History" (2002, ISBN 0802713734) that the name "Celts" is derived from the ancient Greek word for salt (hals), and actually means "The Salt People". Just thought I'd throw that in, because I haven't seen in mentioned anywhere here. His book is referenced in the articles for Salt and History of salt, BTW, and I'm quoting from the Wikipedia article on Salt:
"Salzach literally means "salt water" and Salzburg "salt city", both taking their names from the Germanic root for salt, salz. The root hal(l)- also gave us Gaul, the Roman exonym for the Celts, Halle and Schwäbisch Hall in Germany, Halych in Ukraine, and Galicia in Spain: this list of places named for Celtic saltworks is far from complete."
-- 109.186.190.74 ( talk) 19:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)Zi
OK, I was just adding what the guy wrote in his book. I saw the book referenced here, so I thought it's considered a reliable source in Wikipedia's eyes... It was quite fascinating and enlightening as well. BTW, Angr, I just quoted here from the Wikipedia entry on salt, so I don't really get why you disregard it as BS. There's also a Wikipedia article on Mark Kurlansky, so you can read about him, if you don't know who he is. 93.173.9.133 ( talk) 00:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)Zi
The German toponyms in Hall- have long been recognized as being somehow connected with salt. The question is just, what is its etymology. Connection with Greek hal- immediately suggest itself, but probably isn't tenable, certainly not via PIE, and hardly via a loan. Here is what Jacob Grimm has to say on the question:
in brief, connection with Welsh (not Greek) hal was suggested, but is without merit. This is simply the word "hall", but in a specialized sense of "a hall built above the salt quarry" (as for obvious reasons you don't want rain in your salt).
This has been known since 1858, and has been widely available on the mass market in the standard German dictionary since 1961, so Mark Kurlansky (b. 1948) doesn't really have an excuse for ignoring it. -- dab (𒁳) 12:30, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
The 1707 use by Lhuyd is important because Lhuyd was the first to recognize the linguistic group. But "Celtic" could already include the Insular Celts in 17th century usage, as illustrated by Milton's 1667 utmost Isles, clearly intended to the British Isles. After all, the close relation of the Galli and the Britanni is evident even in classical literature. -- dab (𒁳) 11:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
No one knows the correct etymologies of the names Keltoi/Celt, Gallia and Galatai, but we know the PIE roots and "they" say: "These names must come from those roots..." It's like that! (but are they the correct etymologies?) Gallia; -ia means "land" so their names were Gall. Gall and Gael look similar! What are the correct etymologies of Gaidheal and Goidhel? Böri ( talk) 09:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Böri, you have made abundantly clear in numerous instances that you do not have the first clue about linguistics or etymology. Please try to find an area of interest in which you have some basic education and try to contribute there. -- dab (𒁳) 10:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
There is a term in the Celtic languages that is close to the German terms, Gall in Breton, which means "non-breton speaker" and was used for the people who spoke Gallo in eastern Brittany, and which is still used to designate France Bro-C'hall (with a mutation) or galleg which means "French". It exists also in Irish, since I heard yesterday the term of Galltacht refering to the territory where English is spoken as a primary language.
I don't know if the terms are really related, but I think so. I'll make some researches to check, but if anyone knows anything upon this subject, would it be interesting to add it to the article ? It seems to be a common concept of celtic and Germanic people to use this term for speakers of another language.
A galon - Lekemok ( talk) 14:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
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Under "Modern Use", it currently says:
Thus, in a discussion of "the word Celt," a contributor to The Celt states, "The Greeks called us Keltoi,"[29] expressing a position of
ethnic essentialism that extends "we" to include both 19th-century Irish people and the Danubian Κελτοί of Herodotus
Everything after ref 29 looks to me like OR, and isn't supported by any reference. (In fact, the reference was originally at the end of the sentence: I moved it to more accurately indicate what actually came from the source). It's probably true (or true-ish), but also seems a bit more judgemental than is warranted, and the link to "ethnic essentialism" doesn't actually point to anything informative (just redirects to the "see also" section at the end of
Essentialism)
Iapetus (
talk) 15:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Charles Harrington Elster, in his book, 'The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations' disagrees. He specifically says that the word came to English through the French, and that the K pronunciation (with the C spelling) is the simple perpetuation of a Latin pedanticism. Does anyone have further information on the etymology of the word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.113.198 ( talk) 17:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I know that since it's a proper name for a basketball team this technically doesn't matter but it's been annoying the hell out of me: shouldn't they be called the Boston Celts? Vicious203 ( talk) 14:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe et cetera ought to not be the last word in that sentence in order to avoid confusion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.87.207 ( talk) 05:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Early in the article it says that, "The English word [celt] is modern, attested from 1707". Later it says, "the term 'Celt' is probably too deep-rooted to be replaced and — what is more important — it has the definition that we choose to give it." These views I think are widely accepted in academia.
Yet in the middle we hear about, "Another area of Europe, inhabited by the historical celts ... retains a strong Celtic cultural identity and acknowledgement of their own Celtic past." Etc etc. Suddenly academia seems forgotten and we have a Wikipedian who not only knows who has and who has not got a celtic past and history, but can judge whether or not they acknowledge this properly themselves. There is not a single citation in the section called "Modern uses". Is it right to suggest that the whole section should be replaced by something more sound? -- Nigelj ( talk) 17:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
When I was a schoolboy (60s) everybody (around Chicago) said "selt", I never heard "kelt". I have kept my old habit, which curiously seems to actually annoy some people. Anyway, when people write "Celt" but say "Kelt", it just makes our poor English language more confusing; we could do with less words like "pretty" or "women", not more. So, if you mean "Kelt", why not write KELT? If I see it that way, I'll pronounce it "kelt" too! This latter pronunciation has indeed been gaining ground, and that's because people have changed their (linguistic) behavior (I think it all started with some snobs who wanted to sound more like German professors, but who knows--the French have never fallen for it); so, why don't y'all change your spelling behavior too, then everything will be simpler, and when old farts like me die off, everybody will say "kelt" and write "Kelt" and that nasty old "selt" will be as forgotten as "piss-eez" (the former traditional pronunciation of "Pisces"). Jakob37 ( talk) 15:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The OED says /selt/ and /kelt/ are equally acceptable. As long as the OED keeps saying so, you are perfectly free to pronounce the word either way without the need to apologize to anyone. -- dab (𒁳) 12:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
There are two tags in the first line of the article saying that Celtus/Celti are only 'dubious' Latin bases for the word Celt. Who disputes this? On what grounds? If no one can come up with a realistic dispute, then we can remove the tags. -- Nigelj ( talk) 13:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into this. The tags were mine, and you have interpreted their motivation correctly, but I couldn't be bothered to look into it myself at the time. -- dab (𒁳) 12:10, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Mark Kurlansky says in his book "Salt: A World History" (2002, ISBN 0802713734) that the name "Celts" is derived from the ancient Greek word for salt (hals), and actually means "The Salt People". Just thought I'd throw that in, because I haven't seen in mentioned anywhere here. His book is referenced in the articles for Salt and History of salt, BTW, and I'm quoting from the Wikipedia article on Salt:
"Salzach literally means "salt water" and Salzburg "salt city", both taking their names from the Germanic root for salt, salz. The root hal(l)- also gave us Gaul, the Roman exonym for the Celts, Halle and Schwäbisch Hall in Germany, Halych in Ukraine, and Galicia in Spain: this list of places named for Celtic saltworks is far from complete."
-- 109.186.190.74 ( talk) 19:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)Zi
OK, I was just adding what the guy wrote in his book. I saw the book referenced here, so I thought it's considered a reliable source in Wikipedia's eyes... It was quite fascinating and enlightening as well. BTW, Angr, I just quoted here from the Wikipedia entry on salt, so I don't really get why you disregard it as BS. There's also a Wikipedia article on Mark Kurlansky, so you can read about him, if you don't know who he is. 93.173.9.133 ( talk) 00:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)Zi
The German toponyms in Hall- have long been recognized as being somehow connected with salt. The question is just, what is its etymology. Connection with Greek hal- immediately suggest itself, but probably isn't tenable, certainly not via PIE, and hardly via a loan. Here is what Jacob Grimm has to say on the question:
in brief, connection with Welsh (not Greek) hal was suggested, but is without merit. This is simply the word "hall", but in a specialized sense of "a hall built above the salt quarry" (as for obvious reasons you don't want rain in your salt).
This has been known since 1858, and has been widely available on the mass market in the standard German dictionary since 1961, so Mark Kurlansky (b. 1948) doesn't really have an excuse for ignoring it. -- dab (𒁳) 12:30, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
The 1707 use by Lhuyd is important because Lhuyd was the first to recognize the linguistic group. But "Celtic" could already include the Insular Celts in 17th century usage, as illustrated by Milton's 1667 utmost Isles, clearly intended to the British Isles. After all, the close relation of the Galli and the Britanni is evident even in classical literature. -- dab (𒁳) 11:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
No one knows the correct etymologies of the names Keltoi/Celt, Gallia and Galatai, but we know the PIE roots and "they" say: "These names must come from those roots..." It's like that! (but are they the correct etymologies?) Gallia; -ia means "land" so their names were Gall. Gall and Gael look similar! What are the correct etymologies of Gaidheal and Goidhel? Böri ( talk) 09:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Böri, you have made abundantly clear in numerous instances that you do not have the first clue about linguistics or etymology. Please try to find an area of interest in which you have some basic education and try to contribute there. -- dab (𒁳) 10:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
There is a term in the Celtic languages that is close to the German terms, Gall in Breton, which means "non-breton speaker" and was used for the people who spoke Gallo in eastern Brittany, and which is still used to designate France Bro-C'hall (with a mutation) or galleg which means "French". It exists also in Irish, since I heard yesterday the term of Galltacht refering to the territory where English is spoken as a primary language.
I don't know if the terms are really related, but I think so. I'll make some researches to check, but if anyone knows anything upon this subject, would it be interesting to add it to the article ? It seems to be a common concept of celtic and Germanic people to use this term for speakers of another language.
A galon - Lekemok ( talk) 14:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Names of the Celts. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:28, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Under "Modern Use", it currently says:
Thus, in a discussion of "the word Celt," a contributor to The Celt states, "The Greeks called us Keltoi,"[29] expressing a position of
ethnic essentialism that extends "we" to include both 19th-century Irish people and the Danubian Κελτοί of Herodotus
Everything after ref 29 looks to me like OR, and isn't supported by any reference. (In fact, the reference was originally at the end of the sentence: I moved it to more accurately indicate what actually came from the source). It's probably true (or true-ish), but also seems a bit more judgemental than is warranted, and the link to "ethnic essentialism" doesn't actually point to anything informative (just redirects to the "see also" section at the end of
Essentialism)
Iapetus (
talk) 15:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)