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In the original Times article, in the quote "We would discourage its useage", it is unclear whether the misspelling "useage" is an error by the Times or by the Irish embassy spokesman, as there is no " sic". Reading the requote in Wikipedia, it is not clear (until you click the original) whether the sic was added by Wikipedia or by the Times, as there are two levels of nested quotation. I have paraphrased the main body to remove the need for a "sic", which might be seen as snide (either "stupid Times" or "stupid embassy"). I have left the spelling in the full footnote quote, but tried to make clear the sic was added by Wikipedia, not The Times. jnestorius( talk) 04:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I must declare at the outset that I have no ideological axe to grind. I'm simply someone who has grown up in Ireland, frustrated at hearing this term used constantly to describe my country.
This article has failed to stick to the neutrality requirement so far. It is written as if the term "British Isles" is and was generally accepted but misunderstood. There are two sides to this naming dispute, and the term is and was only accepted by one side. The vast majority of the people on this island have never considered themselves British in any way at all. The name was imposed upon the region. The fact that it appears in published atlases and schoolbooks is simply the result of the publishers being either British, or taking their information from British sources.
When one declares that the term is misunderstood, one is making a category mistake. The correct way to explain the current impasse is to say that the term is misused, and the intention of those who use it is often misunderstood. The term itself is clear, it labels the island as the home and property of the British people. The place where British people are to be found. While this is true for the majority of people on the islands, it isn't true for the vast majority of people living on the island of Ireland, who don't consider, and have never considered themselves as British. The use of the term effectively extinguishes Irishness from the international view. Indeed, this was largely the purpose of the adoption of the term from the ancient writings. The mark of the success of this strategy is that modern heads of state have often committed the gaffe of stating that they had thought Ireland was British with the Queen as head of state. It is also the reason that many English people innocently and without any malicious intention presume that Ireland is British, that Irish artists like U2 are British, and that Irish sportsmen and women are British.
For Irish people who aren't of the Ulster Unionist stock this is excruciating. Not because there is something wrong with being British, because there obviously isn't, but simply because it slowly but surely is extinguishing Irish identity, and especially the perception of Ireland on the international stage. Let us be clear:
The phrase "British Isles" refers to that geographical area in which the British people/s are to be found, and that land which is owned by the British.
The fact that the person using the phrase may intend some other meaning is the misunderstanding, not the way the person listening's perception.
The dictionary definition used is not reliable. This is because the dictionary definition is derived from the culture that has created the phrase, and does not take account of the second culture involved. I suggest that these dictionaries (Random House, Princeton, and Wordnet have simply looked up the Oxford dictionary, or relied upon "common knowledge" to produce their definition. The problem with this is there is a vast difference in relative population between Ireland and Britain. This means that unless the etymologists came to Ireland and took a sample of the population and asked them where the British Isles were, then their definition is biased. A biased definition is not good evidence. What is required is a new definition, from first principles, but that is not the purpose of Wikipedia, or this page.
Therefore, we must agree a new text for the main page. Currently, the overall effect of the page is to give the impression that the phrase is correct, but that those who don't agree are either incorrect or don't understand. This means that the page is not neutral at all, but is solidly promoting the use of the phrase "British Isles" as a general geographical description of the United Kingdom and the island of Ireland.
At the very least, the introductory sentence should read:
The meaning term "British Isles" is contentious. It carries additional meanings; political, economic, cultural and geopolitical, reflecting historical divisions. Some accept that the term refers to "Great Britain and Ireland and adjacent islands", while others accept that the term does not include the island of Ireland.
The association of the term British with the United Kindgom,[2] as well as its association with the island of Great Britain cause the term to be regarded as objectionable to many people in Ireland when it is used to include Ireland.[3]
No branch of the government of the Republic of Ireland uses the term, [4] although it is on occasion used in a geographical sense in Irish parliamentary debates. A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London has said use of the term would be discouraged.[5]
Ireland|Cormac |
(Talk) 10:30, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
The issue is that one won't easily find a definition that disagrees with the dictionary definition, for reasons explained (although I'll search for one). Is the stated policy of the sovereign government of Ireland not good enough? The fact is that the population of Ireland right now is about 4.2 million in the South and close to 1.6 million in the North. The population of the United Kingdom is approximately 60 million. With the difference in population, it would be hard to find people who would agree that Ireland does not form part of the British Isles. The thing is, how many Irish people have you asked? The belief that Ireland left the UK in 1922 is not held by most people in the Republic, or by a large minority of those in the North, who would stoutly and indignantly declare that Ireland never was a British Isle in the first instance. What I don't understand is, given that the vast majority of people on the island of Ireland do not describe Ireland as part of the British Isles, and who would not subscribe to the argument that Ireland "left" the British Isles when it "left" the United Kingdom, why the view of these people is completely ignored.
Basically, the logic of this article at the moment could be applied to a scenario in which people decided to start calling France "Continental Britain", whether or not the French agreed, and then saying that although some disagree, most accept that this is the geographic description. Or vice versa, calling Britain "Atlantic France", and completely ignoring the attitude of the population, while using the French dictionary's definition as proof. The article as written is logically nonsensical at the moment.
At its most simplistic, the current article boils down to "I think I'll call your house "my house", and then I'll insist that everyone else calls your house "my house" too, insisting that they ignore my protests, which although somewhat understandable, are just plain wrong.
Finally, the point I'm making is that when the phrase is used by British people, or by those from further afield, they do assume Ireland is part of the British Isles. Irish people are just fed up of it. The vast majority of us are not British, and we mostly descend from families that were not and never were British, and therefore the island is not British. This is not to disenfranchise the British part of our culture and society, and it has nothing to do with religion, (I'm an atheist married to a protestant! :) ), it is simply that the description is inaccurate, and it causes international confusion about the policital status and relationship between these two islands.
One other thing I don't get is the huge reluctance to admitting that the commonly held understanding of the term "British Isles" could be wrong. Why are people so threatened by the idea that these islands are not correctly described as British? Why is it that even this article, which is supposed to be unbiased and neutral has taken a very definite stance in support of one side of the debate?
Ireland|Cormac | (Talk) 17:22, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
Oops, sorry about messing the formatting, I don't have a handle on it yet.
Ireland|Cormac | (Talk) 17:22, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
One thing I'd like to add. Here are some links to references that add to my side of the argument. They may add something to the debate:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=EDJ20051117.xml&Node=73
Deputy Hoctor: … I am interested to know what happens in the British Isles on this….
Oireachtas debate on healthcare and services for autistic people...
http://www.meath.ie/Tourism/TouristInformation/DownloadBrochures/File,3444,en.pdf
Local government publication containing references to “students from Ireland, the British Isles, France, …”
http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%E1il/jcmnr-debates/jcmnr120303.rtf
Dail debate on TV broadcasting licences. Question – Does TV3 broadcast in the British Isles, (meaning outside Ireland – my italics).
http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/lrc100/lrc_100.html
Reference to the British Isles as a legal territory
http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%E1il/jcaf-debates/JAF230903.rtf
Dail debate rejecting Ireland’s inclusion in the term “British Isles”.
NORTH P.M. North, The Private International Law of Matrimonial Causes in the British Isles and the Republic of Ireland, (1977)
A text used as a reference in the Law Reform paper: REPORT ON RECOGNITION OF FOREIGN DIVORCES AND LEGAL SEPARATIONS IRELAND http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/volume4/lrc_29.html
http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%E1il/jcesb-debates/jesb10703.rtf
Dail debate on Insurance issues in which Ireland and British Isles are discussed as separate and distinct entities.
http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/departments/history/news-events/rediscovering-radicalism/
Rediscovering radicalism in the British Isles and Ireland, c.1550-c.1700: movements of people, texts and ideas
(A conference in Goldsmith’s University of London)
Ireland|Cormac | (Talk) 17:22, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Robdurbar,
Thanks for responding. I do appreciate it.
My problem isn't in the overall article, it is in the introductory statement which declares a value judgement into an ongoing debate, and this fundamentally undermines the principle of neutrality of Wikipedia.
The article should simply state what the various positions are that are held by various people, and perhaps state that the most commonly held understanding is that Ireland is included in the British Isles. This would be a very different article, and would take all the heat out of things. It should not actively state that one side of the debate is the truth. The article itself has engaged in the debate rather than simply reporting that it is a live debate, by adopting a position.
Ireland|Cormac |
(Talk) 21:06, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm in the UK regularly as I have both family and friends there. I worked for several years in Scotland. I love England, and Scotland, and while I've been to Wales on more than one occasion, it usually coincided with a rugby international, so while I'm sure its a lovely country, I don't remember too much other than excellent hospitality. I've met plenty of British people who would be very surprised that this is an ongoing debate. I've met those who decided on balance and consideration that actually Ireland shouldn't be considered part of the British Isles, and I've met several Irish people who believe that it should be considered part of the British Isles. I'm well aware of the breadth of opinion on the matter.
I don't expect wikipedia to "admit that the commonly held view is wrong", but I do expect it not to take one side in a live debate.
The thing is that the naming dispute is the result of a misunderstanding. Ireland was described as "British" long before Great Britain ever became a country in 1707, or even the Norman conquest. As the British Isles article describes, far from being from "British sources", it was the Romans and Greeks who named the British Isles, after the Pretani, a Celtic tribe that inhabited Great Britain and Ireland. Great Britain on its own was called Albion. The name "British Isles" is not derived from the term "Great Britain". It's the other way around: Great Britain is the largest (that is, greatest) island of Britain. Antiquarian sources like Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder corroborate this. The confusion, and thus controversy, arises from the incorrect description of the UK as "Britain" or as "Great Britain". Not all things British must be about the UK, just as not all things Irish must be about the Republic of Ireland. If anything, the term "Great Britain and Ireland" is worse than "British Isles", not simply because it ignores all the other thousands of islands of the archipelago but because "Ireland" is the official name of the Republic of Ireland. If "British Isles" implies the United Kingdom's control over Ireland if the definitions of "British" are confused, a similar confusion of the definitions of "Ireland" would imply that "Great Britain and Ireland" implies the Republic of Ireland's control over Northern Ireland (and all the other islands other than Great Britain), and that's clearly no better.
After reading paragraph after paragraph disputing the "legality" of the term British Isles, not once have I seen an actual alternative name of the archipelago that includes the United Kingdom and Ireland. Keeping in mind the worldwide scope, without the legal pedantics, what is the name most widely used for the entire group of islands in this region of the world? 147.70.242.40 19:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Google trends is looking over a very short timeline. Linguistic changes happen more slowly. For instance, as far as I know Michelin used to make maps of the British Isles. Now they make maps of Great Britain and Ireland. Collins (at least on Amazon.com) have maps of Great Britain and Ireland, not the British Isles. These changes are slow. Looking for a trend over two years is unlikely to tell you anything. The Lions changed name in 2001. That's very recent. Hughsheehy 14:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a small section stating that BI is not a term used in the Interpretation Act, firstly because the reference is utterly inadequate: an obscure report of unclear status which only touches on the matter tangentially, and since the writing of which the Interpretation ACt has been amended, secondly because the reference is unclear and out of context in any case, and thirdly because the sentence implies an official disapproval of the term ('likewise' to the Irish disapproval mentioned above') when the reality is that the term British Isles is not mentioned in the Act because it is a geographic rather than a legal term, and that as large parts of it are not under British sovereignty inclusion of it in a British Act would be bizarre. -- 86.31.237.222 11:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Is this dispute still active or can it be closed? -- Ideogram 01:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Closing. If you need it reopened leave a note on my talk page. -- Ideogram 01:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Given the context, is it appropriate to use the words Britain and Ireland (disambiguation) in the titles of the subsections? Perhaps it would be better to have three sections, for Perspectives in "Great Britain", "Northern Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland". jnestorius( talk) 20:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the "Perspectives in Britain" section, the comment "many in Britain still misuse the term" is backed up by a reference (note 10 at the time of writing) to a BBC article. However, as the footnote text says, "[t]he page was changed in February 2007" and no longer uses the term "a small country such as the British Isles". That being so, surely it's no longer verifiable, therefore no longer an acceptable reference, and so the "many in Britain still misuse the term" text should either be backed up with a currently verifiable reference or removed altogether? (Actually, one example of that usage on its own isn't really enough for "many in Britain" anyway!) Loganberry ( Talk) 01:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Public use of terms like 'These Islands', 'Western Islands' and even the 'Hibernian Archipelago' are common in Ireland
I have never once heard these terms used in Ireland, they might be used by the papers every now and again but to call them common is a plain lie. Plokt
I don't think "writing in The Guardian in 2006" is a good enough reference, especially as there's no mention in the actual footnote of the date it was published. I know it was there - I remember reading it - but as of now it's not fully verifiable, which is bad. Loganberry ( Talk) 14:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"... to most Irish people a person's nation can only be English, Scottish, Welsh or Cornish and 'Britishness' implies being from the island of Britain' - Who the hell wrote this and what asylum allowed them access to a computer? -- sony-youth pléigh 09:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I've marked as dubious the sentence that "[people in Britain] point out that the term British Isles, referring to the archapelago, is historically older than the term "Britain", and that Great Britain takes its name from the archipelago." My reasons for this is weakly because it is uncited (although I actually believe that it is true that people claim this). However, picking up a dictionary will show that it is in fact the other way around.
The OED puts "British Isles" at 1621 and "Britain" at 1297. So its more the claim that is dubious rather that what is claimed that people in Britain would say it. This needs to be clarified. -- sony-youth pléigh 09:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
"In modern times it is more common to use "British" in relation to the United Kingdom or Great Britain and "Irish" in relation to the island of Ireland or to the Republic of Ireland" This is not just modern times (unless you are speaking specifically about RoI.) Irish people have been called Irish since they stopped being called Scots (i.e. a long long time). -- sony-youth pléigh 10:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the section on "Names of the islands through the ages" from the British Isles article be merged in here. The information there is more relevent to this article in terms of background/historical information. It's out of place (for such a long section) in the main British Isles article unless its current significance is understood. -- sony-youth pléigh 10:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, the British Isles article has seen quite some back-and-forth debate about just how much mention the article should make regarding the strong dislike that many Irish citizens (myself included) have of the term. The current arrangement - clearly and concisely mentioning that it is a controversial term and providing a link to a separate specific discussion - is the best compromise we could collectively work out (and a pretty nice one I think). If you want to see the alternative, I suggest you read through the 'British Isles' discussion history...and put a few DAYS aside for the job! I do warn you that the fierce editting war we had over a year ago could easily be reignited, so it's best to leave this as is. Kind regards, Pconlon 12:49, 12 June 2007 (GMT)
<reduce indent>As one of the people involved in much of the content in what's now the "names through the ages" section (along with Sony) I'm working on a heavily shortened version. It'll take a while. I'll point people at my Sandbox once it's ready for review. Again, that's for the main BI page. Hughsheehy 20:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to begin a section on scholarly opinion, as that is an area where they appears to be a lot of discussion about the name issue. For that end I've created a subpage (like on the main BI page) for references. I've only just done this so, there's only one at the moment. Please add more as you find them. Thank. -- sony-youth pléigh 15:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
There's been an edit dispute over at Lough Neagh regarding the description of the British Isles. I'm trying to get a little discussion going, and would be interested in getting people's thoughts over at Talk:Lough Neagh#Description_of_.22largest_lake.22_status. Thanks, Mark Chovain 23:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I can understand (though do not agree with) not using the Union flag in the representation of Northern Ireland at the bottom of the article - but why is the Ulster banner not part of the Historic states section ?? --Dionysus99 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysus99 ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the original Times article, in the quote "We would discourage its useage", it is unclear whether the misspelling "useage" is an error by the Times or by the Irish embassy spokesman, as there is no " sic". Reading the requote in Wikipedia, it is not clear (until you click the original) whether the sic was added by Wikipedia or by the Times, as there are two levels of nested quotation. I have paraphrased the main body to remove the need for a "sic", which might be seen as snide (either "stupid Times" or "stupid embassy"). I have left the spelling in the full footnote quote, but tried to make clear the sic was added by Wikipedia, not The Times. jnestorius( talk) 04:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I must declare at the outset that I have no ideological axe to grind. I'm simply someone who has grown up in Ireland, frustrated at hearing this term used constantly to describe my country.
This article has failed to stick to the neutrality requirement so far. It is written as if the term "British Isles" is and was generally accepted but misunderstood. There are two sides to this naming dispute, and the term is and was only accepted by one side. The vast majority of the people on this island have never considered themselves British in any way at all. The name was imposed upon the region. The fact that it appears in published atlases and schoolbooks is simply the result of the publishers being either British, or taking their information from British sources.
When one declares that the term is misunderstood, one is making a category mistake. The correct way to explain the current impasse is to say that the term is misused, and the intention of those who use it is often misunderstood. The term itself is clear, it labels the island as the home and property of the British people. The place where British people are to be found. While this is true for the majority of people on the islands, it isn't true for the vast majority of people living on the island of Ireland, who don't consider, and have never considered themselves as British. The use of the term effectively extinguishes Irishness from the international view. Indeed, this was largely the purpose of the adoption of the term from the ancient writings. The mark of the success of this strategy is that modern heads of state have often committed the gaffe of stating that they had thought Ireland was British with the Queen as head of state. It is also the reason that many English people innocently and without any malicious intention presume that Ireland is British, that Irish artists like U2 are British, and that Irish sportsmen and women are British.
For Irish people who aren't of the Ulster Unionist stock this is excruciating. Not because there is something wrong with being British, because there obviously isn't, but simply because it slowly but surely is extinguishing Irish identity, and especially the perception of Ireland on the international stage. Let us be clear:
The phrase "British Isles" refers to that geographical area in which the British people/s are to be found, and that land which is owned by the British.
The fact that the person using the phrase may intend some other meaning is the misunderstanding, not the way the person listening's perception.
The dictionary definition used is not reliable. This is because the dictionary definition is derived from the culture that has created the phrase, and does not take account of the second culture involved. I suggest that these dictionaries (Random House, Princeton, and Wordnet have simply looked up the Oxford dictionary, or relied upon "common knowledge" to produce their definition. The problem with this is there is a vast difference in relative population between Ireland and Britain. This means that unless the etymologists came to Ireland and took a sample of the population and asked them where the British Isles were, then their definition is biased. A biased definition is not good evidence. What is required is a new definition, from first principles, but that is not the purpose of Wikipedia, or this page.
Therefore, we must agree a new text for the main page. Currently, the overall effect of the page is to give the impression that the phrase is correct, but that those who don't agree are either incorrect or don't understand. This means that the page is not neutral at all, but is solidly promoting the use of the phrase "British Isles" as a general geographical description of the United Kingdom and the island of Ireland.
At the very least, the introductory sentence should read:
The meaning term "British Isles" is contentious. It carries additional meanings; political, economic, cultural and geopolitical, reflecting historical divisions. Some accept that the term refers to "Great Britain and Ireland and adjacent islands", while others accept that the term does not include the island of Ireland.
The association of the term British with the United Kindgom,[2] as well as its association with the island of Great Britain cause the term to be regarded as objectionable to many people in Ireland when it is used to include Ireland.[3]
No branch of the government of the Republic of Ireland uses the term, [4] although it is on occasion used in a geographical sense in Irish parliamentary debates. A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London has said use of the term would be discouraged.[5]
Ireland|Cormac |
(Talk) 10:30, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
The issue is that one won't easily find a definition that disagrees with the dictionary definition, for reasons explained (although I'll search for one). Is the stated policy of the sovereign government of Ireland not good enough? The fact is that the population of Ireland right now is about 4.2 million in the South and close to 1.6 million in the North. The population of the United Kingdom is approximately 60 million. With the difference in population, it would be hard to find people who would agree that Ireland does not form part of the British Isles. The thing is, how many Irish people have you asked? The belief that Ireland left the UK in 1922 is not held by most people in the Republic, or by a large minority of those in the North, who would stoutly and indignantly declare that Ireland never was a British Isle in the first instance. What I don't understand is, given that the vast majority of people on the island of Ireland do not describe Ireland as part of the British Isles, and who would not subscribe to the argument that Ireland "left" the British Isles when it "left" the United Kingdom, why the view of these people is completely ignored.
Basically, the logic of this article at the moment could be applied to a scenario in which people decided to start calling France "Continental Britain", whether or not the French agreed, and then saying that although some disagree, most accept that this is the geographic description. Or vice versa, calling Britain "Atlantic France", and completely ignoring the attitude of the population, while using the French dictionary's definition as proof. The article as written is logically nonsensical at the moment.
At its most simplistic, the current article boils down to "I think I'll call your house "my house", and then I'll insist that everyone else calls your house "my house" too, insisting that they ignore my protests, which although somewhat understandable, are just plain wrong.
Finally, the point I'm making is that when the phrase is used by British people, or by those from further afield, they do assume Ireland is part of the British Isles. Irish people are just fed up of it. The vast majority of us are not British, and we mostly descend from families that were not and never were British, and therefore the island is not British. This is not to disenfranchise the British part of our culture and society, and it has nothing to do with religion, (I'm an atheist married to a protestant! :) ), it is simply that the description is inaccurate, and it causes international confusion about the policital status and relationship between these two islands.
One other thing I don't get is the huge reluctance to admitting that the commonly held understanding of the term "British Isles" could be wrong. Why are people so threatened by the idea that these islands are not correctly described as British? Why is it that even this article, which is supposed to be unbiased and neutral has taken a very definite stance in support of one side of the debate?
Ireland|Cormac | (Talk) 17:22, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
Oops, sorry about messing the formatting, I don't have a handle on it yet.
Ireland|Cormac | (Talk) 17:22, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
One thing I'd like to add. Here are some links to references that add to my side of the argument. They may add something to the debate:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=EDJ20051117.xml&Node=73
Deputy Hoctor: … I am interested to know what happens in the British Isles on this….
Oireachtas debate on healthcare and services for autistic people...
http://www.meath.ie/Tourism/TouristInformation/DownloadBrochures/File,3444,en.pdf
Local government publication containing references to “students from Ireland, the British Isles, France, …”
http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%E1il/jcmnr-debates/jcmnr120303.rtf
Dail debate on TV broadcasting licences. Question – Does TV3 broadcast in the British Isles, (meaning outside Ireland – my italics).
http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/lrc100/lrc_100.html
Reference to the British Isles as a legal territory
http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%E1il/jcaf-debates/JAF230903.rtf
Dail debate rejecting Ireland’s inclusion in the term “British Isles”.
NORTH P.M. North, The Private International Law of Matrimonial Causes in the British Isles and the Republic of Ireland, (1977)
A text used as a reference in the Law Reform paper: REPORT ON RECOGNITION OF FOREIGN DIVORCES AND LEGAL SEPARATIONS IRELAND http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/volume4/lrc_29.html
http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%E1il/jcesb-debates/jesb10703.rtf
Dail debate on Insurance issues in which Ireland and British Isles are discussed as separate and distinct entities.
http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/departments/history/news-events/rediscovering-radicalism/
Rediscovering radicalism in the British Isles and Ireland, c.1550-c.1700: movements of people, texts and ideas
(A conference in Goldsmith’s University of London)
Ireland|Cormac | (Talk) 17:22, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Robdurbar,
Thanks for responding. I do appreciate it.
My problem isn't in the overall article, it is in the introductory statement which declares a value judgement into an ongoing debate, and this fundamentally undermines the principle of neutrality of Wikipedia.
The article should simply state what the various positions are that are held by various people, and perhaps state that the most commonly held understanding is that Ireland is included in the British Isles. This would be a very different article, and would take all the heat out of things. It should not actively state that one side of the debate is the truth. The article itself has engaged in the debate rather than simply reporting that it is a live debate, by adopting a position.
Ireland|Cormac |
(Talk) 21:06, 1st February 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm in the UK regularly as I have both family and friends there. I worked for several years in Scotland. I love England, and Scotland, and while I've been to Wales on more than one occasion, it usually coincided with a rugby international, so while I'm sure its a lovely country, I don't remember too much other than excellent hospitality. I've met plenty of British people who would be very surprised that this is an ongoing debate. I've met those who decided on balance and consideration that actually Ireland shouldn't be considered part of the British Isles, and I've met several Irish people who believe that it should be considered part of the British Isles. I'm well aware of the breadth of opinion on the matter.
I don't expect wikipedia to "admit that the commonly held view is wrong", but I do expect it not to take one side in a live debate.
The thing is that the naming dispute is the result of a misunderstanding. Ireland was described as "British" long before Great Britain ever became a country in 1707, or even the Norman conquest. As the British Isles article describes, far from being from "British sources", it was the Romans and Greeks who named the British Isles, after the Pretani, a Celtic tribe that inhabited Great Britain and Ireland. Great Britain on its own was called Albion. The name "British Isles" is not derived from the term "Great Britain". It's the other way around: Great Britain is the largest (that is, greatest) island of Britain. Antiquarian sources like Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder corroborate this. The confusion, and thus controversy, arises from the incorrect description of the UK as "Britain" or as "Great Britain". Not all things British must be about the UK, just as not all things Irish must be about the Republic of Ireland. If anything, the term "Great Britain and Ireland" is worse than "British Isles", not simply because it ignores all the other thousands of islands of the archipelago but because "Ireland" is the official name of the Republic of Ireland. If "British Isles" implies the United Kingdom's control over Ireland if the definitions of "British" are confused, a similar confusion of the definitions of "Ireland" would imply that "Great Britain and Ireland" implies the Republic of Ireland's control over Northern Ireland (and all the other islands other than Great Britain), and that's clearly no better.
After reading paragraph after paragraph disputing the "legality" of the term British Isles, not once have I seen an actual alternative name of the archipelago that includes the United Kingdom and Ireland. Keeping in mind the worldwide scope, without the legal pedantics, what is the name most widely used for the entire group of islands in this region of the world? 147.70.242.40 19:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Google trends is looking over a very short timeline. Linguistic changes happen more slowly. For instance, as far as I know Michelin used to make maps of the British Isles. Now they make maps of Great Britain and Ireland. Collins (at least on Amazon.com) have maps of Great Britain and Ireland, not the British Isles. These changes are slow. Looking for a trend over two years is unlikely to tell you anything. The Lions changed name in 2001. That's very recent. Hughsheehy 14:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a small section stating that BI is not a term used in the Interpretation Act, firstly because the reference is utterly inadequate: an obscure report of unclear status which only touches on the matter tangentially, and since the writing of which the Interpretation ACt has been amended, secondly because the reference is unclear and out of context in any case, and thirdly because the sentence implies an official disapproval of the term ('likewise' to the Irish disapproval mentioned above') when the reality is that the term British Isles is not mentioned in the Act because it is a geographic rather than a legal term, and that as large parts of it are not under British sovereignty inclusion of it in a British Act would be bizarre. -- 86.31.237.222 11:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Is this dispute still active or can it be closed? -- Ideogram 01:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Closing. If you need it reopened leave a note on my talk page. -- Ideogram 01:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Given the context, is it appropriate to use the words Britain and Ireland (disambiguation) in the titles of the subsections? Perhaps it would be better to have three sections, for Perspectives in "Great Britain", "Northern Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland". jnestorius( talk) 20:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the "Perspectives in Britain" section, the comment "many in Britain still misuse the term" is backed up by a reference (note 10 at the time of writing) to a BBC article. However, as the footnote text says, "[t]he page was changed in February 2007" and no longer uses the term "a small country such as the British Isles". That being so, surely it's no longer verifiable, therefore no longer an acceptable reference, and so the "many in Britain still misuse the term" text should either be backed up with a currently verifiable reference or removed altogether? (Actually, one example of that usage on its own isn't really enough for "many in Britain" anyway!) Loganberry ( Talk) 01:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Public use of terms like 'These Islands', 'Western Islands' and even the 'Hibernian Archipelago' are common in Ireland
I have never once heard these terms used in Ireland, they might be used by the papers every now and again but to call them common is a plain lie. Plokt
I don't think "writing in The Guardian in 2006" is a good enough reference, especially as there's no mention in the actual footnote of the date it was published. I know it was there - I remember reading it - but as of now it's not fully verifiable, which is bad. Loganberry ( Talk) 14:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"... to most Irish people a person's nation can only be English, Scottish, Welsh or Cornish and 'Britishness' implies being from the island of Britain' - Who the hell wrote this and what asylum allowed them access to a computer? -- sony-youth pléigh 09:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I've marked as dubious the sentence that "[people in Britain] point out that the term British Isles, referring to the archapelago, is historically older than the term "Britain", and that Great Britain takes its name from the archipelago." My reasons for this is weakly because it is uncited (although I actually believe that it is true that people claim this). However, picking up a dictionary will show that it is in fact the other way around.
The OED puts "British Isles" at 1621 and "Britain" at 1297. So its more the claim that is dubious rather that what is claimed that people in Britain would say it. This needs to be clarified. -- sony-youth pléigh 09:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
"In modern times it is more common to use "British" in relation to the United Kingdom or Great Britain and "Irish" in relation to the island of Ireland or to the Republic of Ireland" This is not just modern times (unless you are speaking specifically about RoI.) Irish people have been called Irish since they stopped being called Scots (i.e. a long long time). -- sony-youth pléigh 10:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the section on "Names of the islands through the ages" from the British Isles article be merged in here. The information there is more relevent to this article in terms of background/historical information. It's out of place (for such a long section) in the main British Isles article unless its current significance is understood. -- sony-youth pléigh 10:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, the British Isles article has seen quite some back-and-forth debate about just how much mention the article should make regarding the strong dislike that many Irish citizens (myself included) have of the term. The current arrangement - clearly and concisely mentioning that it is a controversial term and providing a link to a separate specific discussion - is the best compromise we could collectively work out (and a pretty nice one I think). If you want to see the alternative, I suggest you read through the 'British Isles' discussion history...and put a few DAYS aside for the job! I do warn you that the fierce editting war we had over a year ago could easily be reignited, so it's best to leave this as is. Kind regards, Pconlon 12:49, 12 June 2007 (GMT)
<reduce indent>As one of the people involved in much of the content in what's now the "names through the ages" section (along with Sony) I'm working on a heavily shortened version. It'll take a while. I'll point people at my Sandbox once it's ready for review. Again, that's for the main BI page. Hughsheehy 20:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to begin a section on scholarly opinion, as that is an area where they appears to be a lot of discussion about the name issue. For that end I've created a subpage (like on the main BI page) for references. I've only just done this so, there's only one at the moment. Please add more as you find them. Thank. -- sony-youth pléigh 15:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
There's been an edit dispute over at Lough Neagh regarding the description of the British Isles. I'm trying to get a little discussion going, and would be interested in getting people's thoughts over at Talk:Lough Neagh#Description_of_.22largest_lake.22_status. Thanks, Mark Chovain 23:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I can understand (though do not agree with) not using the Union flag in the representation of Northern Ireland at the bottom of the article - but why is the Ulster banner not part of the Historic states section ?? --Dionysus99 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysus99 ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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