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In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
As of right now, the only links to the article are some that obsess over the "J" sound in the modern English version of the name, despite the fact that ALL ancient words beginning in "Y" have come to begin with "J", by an ordinary and normal process of linguistic development, if they went through Old French, or had their pronunciation affected by the French pronunciation of Latin words. This applies to many dozens of Biblical names, as well as to numerous ordinary words such as "Judge" (pronounced Yoodeks in ancient Latin).
I guess I'll add a link to my site http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/yeshua-yasu-isa.htm for balance, but the article really needs more work. AnonMoos 22:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
“Jesus is derived from the Latin Iesus, which in turn comes from the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs).” Jesus was first written in early Latin as "IESVS" before adaption of letter U/u in the Middle Ages. Perhaps early Romans confused Greek letters ν (lower case Nu) and υ (lower case Upsilon). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet (Evolution) “V stood for both u and v.” “The Roman alphabet is an adaptation of the Greek alphabet to represent the phonemes of the Latin language” My native language Finnish is ideal and exact in investigating evolution of languages cause without few exception Finnish is written same way as pronounced (one letter = one phoneme). Finnish does not have any “vowel pair sounds” like French or English does, e.g. Y[ou] in English , V[ou]s in French. Finnish also the most ideal language for computerized Speech_recognition -- Unsigned by User 213.216.199.18 or JPV
In the 1611 KJV, did they use Iesus or Jesus? in 1611, did they pronounce the Name as yesu or jeezus? when did they start to say jeezus instead of Yesu? when the Name was printed as Jesus did they pronouce it as Yesu or jeezus? what other language pronounces jeezus? why did people start to say jeezus? if the Name was originally spelt Iesus, and when changed to Jesus they still pronouced Yesu, why did they go to jeezus? "J was originally a capital of I." if they spelt "Jesus" when people were saying Yesu, why aren't they saying Yesu instead of jeezus? -- Unsigned by 138.89.68.186
Dear Friends: I'm not sure what the fuss is over here. Both versions of the text seem to say the same thing to me and I can read Greek and, with some lexical aid, Hebrew. Could we stop the edit war and do as Jayg suggested, talk out what we're going to say? -- CTSWyneken 19:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. My problems are not with Matthew 1:21 (I was the one who contributed it in the first place back in 2005-12-27 14:42:38), but with the insertion of numerous, repetitive references to the Gospel of John to talk about divinity rather than titles, while removing statements that bring up mention of how these phrases attributed to Jesus had other uses in a historical context. -- Steve Caruso 19:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
In the beginning, there was an article called Jesus. In the attempt to represent all views, the page became too long. Contributers decided to use the Jesus article to highlight Christian views, with brief summaries of other views linked to other articles. This is one of them. With a topic so vast as "Jesus," where there is such divergent views between athiests, Christians and critical scholars, NPOV can be achieved only by having several linked articles covering different bodies of research and thought. This article focuses on how historians interpret the names of Jesus in their historical context. There are already other articles that do the same thing from the Christian POV. Now, we can go to those articles and add in all the research done by critical historians, and once again have a page that is too long. Or we can have a constellation of linked pages which draw on differrent bodies of research. It was the latter that contributors decided on a couple of years ago for practical, not ideological, reasons. Those practical reasons apply today. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
152.163.100.68 and others want to insert selective quotes from the NT in order to make interpretive claims. This violates our NOR policy. How Christians interpret these names and titles, and why, is a legitimate topic for an article. But it should be another article, and indeed, this material is already covered in other articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what you just said is what this article was originally and in my opinion should continue to be about. I would only add, "What readers (or listeners) would have understood these titles, as best as scholars can reconstruct." In short, it takes a specific point of view, which is that how certain words were understood in first century Palestine was different from how Christians even by the second century would have understood. My primary source when I worked on this was Geza Vermes whose work is pretty well-respected but of course if you know work by other scholars attempting to do the same thing - understand these words in their historical rather than theological context - I hope you will add to it.
And of course, do make sure that the other linked articles adequately express the Christian point (or points) of view, by all means!
I am glad we agree on principle. I provide two links other articles that deal with Christian understandings of Jesus, prominently. And those articles, needless to say, report entirely on the Christian view of Jesus. I have no objection to this, as long as views of critical historians are included. before I made my edits, this page looked more like a debate between what critical historians argue (all sourced, of course) and what Christians say. I don't think that makes for a useful argument. At most I would say divide the article into two halves, one on Critical scholars views, and one on Christian views - except any content in the second section is already found in other articles! I just want to be clear that I am not trying to censor a particular point of view, I am just trying to maintain the principles that led to a long series of articles concerning Jesus, which has evolved over the years, a series which cannot be combined into one article for technical reasons, and which taken together do I believe comply with our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've done some clean up of the look and read of this section. I don't type Hebrew too well, so if someone will add the Hebrew for the word "Yehoshuah" next to the transliteration, I'd appreciate it.
I'm also not attached to the particular wording I've inserted. Feel free to improve the prose.
Also, a couple of questions for our Hebrew scholars:
1 -- Is the name better translated "YHWH saves" or "YHWH is salvation?" 2 -- Does anyone find it offensive for the Name to be spelled out or transliterated in the Wiki? -- CTSWyneken 16:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This leaves out the content that I posted concerning how the Aramaic use was reflected in the Greek text of Matthew. "He will save" is what ישוע (the third person singular imperfect of "to save") translates to. My point was as follows: "For you will name him Jesus ('ישוע' : lit in Aram., he will save) for he will save them from their sins." This points towards an Aramaic useage, not a Hebrew one. Additionally, the shortening of yehoshua to yeshua` only occurs in the exhillic and post-exhillic books of the Old Testament. The lingua franca of the Babylonian Empire was Aramaic. Overall, it would have been highly unlikely that Jesus was referred to by the Hebrew name on a daily basis. -- Steve Caruso 19:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Steve Caruso's point is interesting - as are CTSWyneken's. I think the basic issue goes back to the vastness of Jesus as a topic, and the need for multiple articles to cover all views. Steve Caruso, is this your own reading of the text? If so, it violates NOR. However, if this is something you have read in Christion/homiletical literature, I think you can insert your point into either the Christology article or the Jesus in the New Testament article. If you know of a critical scholar who has made this point, by all means put it in this article and if you can, cite the source. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon: "in any case it came to be associated with ישע, cf. Mat I.21;" ישע=salvation
A ton of scripture references were added to the article, making it hard to look at. I've moved them to the notes. Will do further clean up later. Also, given the controversy on the main page ( Jesus), could we cite sources for this material? -- CTSWyneken 11:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Can you be more specific? Aren't these facts of evidence? Links have been provided to the actual Hebrew verses, the Greek (Rahlfs) can be found here: http://septuagint.org/LXX/ and other places. The Greek name for the Book of Joshua is IESOUS/Jesus, sometimes called Jesus Nave (Jesus son of Nun) to distinquish from Jesus the Nazarene.
If you want one specific reference: Walter Bauer et al. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature: "Ἰησοῦς (יֵשׁוּעַ Jeshua, later form for יְהוֹשׁוּעַ Joshua; [references cited])"
The reference is very well known among students of the Greek bible. As it is a Lexicon, the quote is from the entry under Ἰησοῦς. Here is the reference at Amazon: link Most good libraries have a copy in their reference section.
What seems to be the problem? I have the second edition of Bauer, 1979, ISBN:0226039323. It says exactly what is quoted above. I don't know if you fully realize it, but a citation in Bauer for Koine Greek is the equivalent of a citation in the OED for modern English, i.e. it doesn't get any better. Bauer is the standard reference for Koine Greek. There is a new 3rd edition, year 2000 I believe, I really doubt it says anything different, what is being said here is hardly anywhere near controversial.
Walter Bauer. "Ἰησοῦς." Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature2nd ed. 1979.
There's just three English editions: 1957, 1979, 2000. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13055.ctl http://www.google.com/search?q=Bauer's%20Greek%20English%20Lexicon
Raymond E. Brown, in Theological Studies [1] #26 (1965) p.545-73 wrote an article entitled "Does the NT call Jesus God?" which can be summarized as follows: Mk10:18, Lk18:19, Mt19:17, Mk15:34, Mt27:46, Jn20:17, Eph1:17, 2Cor1:3, 1Pt1:3, Jn17:3, 1Cor8:6, Eph4:4-6, 1Cor12:4-6, 2Cor13:14, 1Tm2:5, Jn14:28, Mk13:32, Ph2:5-10, 1Cor15:24-28 are "texts that seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus" and are "negative evidence which is often somewhat neglected in Catholic treatments of the subject." Also: "Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels, and a passage like Mk 10:18 would seem to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. Even the fourth Gospel never portrays Jesus as saying specifically that he is God. The sermons which Acts attributes to the beginning of the Christian mission do not speak of Jesus as God. Thus, there is no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of New Testament tradition. This negative conclusion is substantiated by the fact that Paul does not use the title in any epistle written before 58." And "The slow development of the usage of the title God for Jesus requires explanation. Not only is there the factor that Jesus is not called God in the earlier strata of New Testament material, but also there are passages, cited in the first series of texts above, that by implication reserve the title God for the Father. Moreover, even in the New Testament works that speak of Jesus as God, there are also passages that seem to militate against such a usage - a study of these texts will show that this is true of the Pastorals and the Johannine literature. The most plausible explanation is that in the earliest stage of Christianity the Old Testament heritage dominated the use of the title God; hence, God was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus. It referred strictly to the Father of Jesus, to the God whom he prayed. Gradually, (in the 50's and 60's?) in the development of Christian thought God was understood to be a broader term. It was seen that God had revealed so much of Himself in Jesus that God had to be able to include both Father and Son."
Look, I'm not interested in edit wars. So if John 1:1 is going to be taken out of the article, because it is not a direct reference to Jesus, please present a scholar who says that Logos refers to something other than Jesus in John 1:1. Morris, echoing every scholar, of ever persuasion, that I've ever read, says: "Of particular interest and importance is the use of the term Logos or Word, which is applied to Christ in these verses..." (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, NICNT, p. 63). If the scholarly consensus is that Logos refers to Jesus here, then the reference to John 1:1 needs to say in the article. -- MonkeeSage 00:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
My point was not regarding the translation of the last clause of v. 1, it was regarding the indentification of Jesus as the Logos. Granted that the reading of all the major Bible translations is accurate (viz., "the Word was God"), the following argument holds absolutely:
Let A represent: "The Logos is called God"
Let B represent: "Jesus is the Logos"
Let C represent: "Jesus is called God"
The only question, then, is whether the Logos is identified with Jesus (B), which I believe is the scholarly consensus.
Now regarding the issue of the translation of v. 1c, there is a consensus there as well, I think (consensus = 75% or greater), seeing as all major committee produced translations, as well as several standard grammars (e.g., Dana-Mantey), have the reading "the Word was God". -- MonkeeSage 03:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is a page which reviews almost all the relevant discussion from the grammarians on the translation of John 1:1c, with lots of primary source quotes: link. See also the NET Bible footnote (by Wallace), which likewise makes the identification of Jesus=Logos in passing while discussing the grammatical issues in john 1:1c: link. -- MonkeeSage 06:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If you really want to learn, read Raymond Brown's Commentary on the Gospel of John. The pre-existant word ("Let there be light") is only loosely connected with Jesus. Also, the Greek of this passage is particularly thorny, it probably can't be accurately translated into English. Brown notes that "and the word was divine" is one of several valid translations of the Greek. Ditto for "and the word was toward God". Brown warns against reading this verse in a post-Nicene context, there is much more to it than that.
Are you kidding me? The concept of Logos is HUGE in Greek philosophy, not to mention the "word of God" in Judaism, and similar concepts in other cultures: Persian, Indian, Chinese, etc. I took a quick look at your online reference and wasn't very impressed, it is primarily apologetic, you'll find the serious references in Brown's book which is considered the current standard reference on the Gospel of John. If you want to get really scholarly, Brown's "Does the NT call Jesus God?" article is probably the best you can get.
Let me try to simplify this for you: Many scholars think that the Logos in John 1 refers to the Logos. Of course, that's probably why John chose to use that word instead of Jesus. If he wanted to say Jesus is God, there was nothing preventing him from saying so. There are a number of such direct, unambiguous statements in the NT, such as about Herod being god, and Paul being god, but none about Jesus.
They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
"The gods have come down to us in human form!"
The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.
That sums John up right there -> "No one has ever seen God". Jesus, of course, was seen by many.
"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." KJV
The word of God ("Let there be light") is divine and became incarnate in Jesus.
Indeed! Please at least sign you edits using four tildes (4 x ~). -- MonkeeSage 12:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Folks, it does not matter what we think the translation of this passage is. The fact is that a substantial number of scholars think that it is a point blank statement of Jesus as God and a substantial number that it is not. We can solve the problem by crafting text that represents both views. -- CTSWyneken 11:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If we have John 1:1 listed as a footnote in the current section, why should we need additional mention of it at all? It is not enough to let readers draw their own conclusion by reading through the footnotes? If not, then I'm siding with CTSWyneken and I strongly suggest that we draft a copy of it here in the Talk page before posting it. -- Steve Caruso 14:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If there is a reference made to Jesus referred to as "Theos", should there not be a note that it is missing the definite article (i.e. John 1:1), and this is why the meaning of the word is debated (not to mention the rest of the scriptures). -- Oscillate 14:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply that we need anything more than the footnote. I was arguing above that we should include the footnote, that's all. Since the scholarly consensus (or at least majority) recognize that theos is a title referring to deity in some sense (whether definite "God," qualitative "what God is," or indefinite "a god"), and that Jesus is identified with the Logos, there is really no need to note anything about the grammar and syntax of the passage and so on. I think just indicating that there is dispute over the meaning of the title as applied to Jesus is sufficient. -- MonkeeSage 06:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The current article states: "(יְהוֹשׁוּעַ). Yehoshua means "the Lord is salvation" (literally "Jehovah is salvation")." Actually, it literally means: Yahoo, help us!
Another reference if you're looking for references: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=544&letter=J&search=Joshua In Hebrew יהושוע (Deut. iii. 21; Judges ii. 7) and commonly יהושע (Judges ii. 7a; Ex. xvii. 9; Josh. i. 1) correspond to אלישוע = "helped by Yhwh," the shorter form being הושע = "help" or "one who helped" (Num. xiii. 8; Deut. xxxii. 44; here probably an error for יהושוע ). The Septuagint has Ἰησους; the Vulgate, usually "Josue," but "Jesus" in Ecclus. (Sirach) xlvi. 1; I Macc. ii. 55; II Macc. xii. 15, identical with ישוע, the post-exilic form of the name.
I had to do the Hebrew by hand, hopefully I got it correct.
It's close, but I think it's a mistake. שוע/shua is to cry out for help, ישע/isha is salvation. Cite from above: Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon: "in any case it came to be associated with ישע, cf. Mat I.21;" ישע=salvation. I think the current revision of Jesus#Name says the same thing, with references cited.
On the issue itself, both meaning are a part of the word. There are several Hebrew words that have the sense of help (like the ezer in ebenezer). Here we are influenced by the Greek of the report of the gospels of the instructions to Joseph:
τέξεται δὲ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν· αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν.
σώσει kind of locks in the "salvation" denotation. -- CTSWyneken 11:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the "extension" is Matthew 1:21, which may or may not be correct. In any case, there are references to this discussion at Jesus#Name.
It's contested whether שוע means he saves. The primary meaning is H7768, "he cries out for help."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/7/1143868368-74.html
From Jesus#Name: "The name Yēshûa‘ (יֵשׁוּעַ from ש-ו-ע) does not equate with the word “salvation”, yĕshû‘āh (יְשׁוּעָה from י-ש-ע), and the similarities in spelling are a coincidence."
Wikipedia:No personal attacks Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will never help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping create a good encyclopedia.
No, it is not a policy. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines -- Vlad the Impaler
Dear folks:
The reference to non-Biblical works are incomplete. Please expand them. We need full publication information or we are guilty of not fully recognizing the works of others. -- CTSWyneken 11:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Walter Bauer, et.al., 2nd ed., University of Chicago, 1979, ISBN:0226039323
The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, Hendrickson, 1979, ISBN:0913573205
Speaking of references, we have no info on Strong's either. -- CTSWyneken 12:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Strong's should be public domain.
The current article states: "Yehoshua originally meant "Jehovah is [my] help" or "Jehovah helps", but by as early as the second century BCE, had come to mean "Jehovah is salvation"."
Jehovah was "unknown until 1520, when it was introduced by Galantinus" Ref: New BDB, 1979. Further more, it is an error. See Tetragrammaton#Jehovah for details.
Yes, Sirach 46:1 says Joshua son of Nun means "savior of his elect", Philo's On the Change of Names XXI says Moses gave that same Joshua his name which means "the salvation of the Lord" --- and from that you conclude that Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation"? Who do you think you fool?
Jehovah is the invention, and it has been discredited. See also Iaoue and Iabe.
Religious Jews consider יהוה to be unpronounceable. The pronounciation Jehovah is not offensive, actually it is somewhat comical as it shows a serious lack of understanding of the
Masoretic Text.
Wilhelm Gesenius proposed יַהְוֶה which would be Yahweh. You can read more about it here:
Yahweh#Wilhelm_Gesenius_Punctuated_YHWH_as_.22.D7.99.D6.B7.D7.94.D6.B0.D7.95.D6.B6.D7.94.22_.28i.e._Yahweh.29
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=206&letter=J
"The reading "Jehovah" is a comparatively recent invention. The earlier Christian commentators report that the Tetragrammaton was written but not pronounced by the Jews (see Theodoret, "Question. xv. in Ex." [Field, "Hexapla," i. 90, to Ex. vi. 3]; Jerome, "Præfatio Regnorum," and his letter to Marcellus, "Epistola," 136, where he notices that "PIPI" [= ΠIΠI = יהוה] is presented in Greek manuscripts; Origen, see "Hexapla" to Ps. lxxi. 18 and Isa. i. 2; comp. concordance to LXX. by Hatch and Redpath, under ΠIΠI, which occasionally takes the place of the usual κύριος, in Philo's Bible quotations; κύριος = "Adonay" is the regular translation; see also Aquila)."
I see an improvement, but we still need to fill these out. Because editions vary, editors and translators vary, in some cases, authors vary, we need for the first reference to each work:
Author of the entry. "title of the entry." edition. editors (up to at least two, better three, then et Al.), tramslators if different from the editors. Place: Publisher, date. Page of entry. If online, the URL.
After these, the author, and page number are sufficient. -- CTSWyneken 21:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I have just added content that was in the original version of the article but that had been removed. I suspect it was removed in order to make this a shorter article, with details in linked articles. I think this is neither necessary nor effective. It is not necessary because the article is not too long for anyone's server, not by a long shot. It is not wise because many of the linked articles (not all) are not specifically about Jesus or Christianity. They thus say nothing about the "names and titles of Jesus." I have restored content that is specific to Geza Vermes' arguments about the names and titles of Jesus. This is only one point of view, although it is a very well-regarded point of view. If the problem is that other points of views need to be represented, the solution is to add, not to delete. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I am glad you find my edit acceptable - I did try to be judicious in wha I restored. Let's keep an eye on length, but I think for now it is fine. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I had restored some material drawing on Geza Vermes and explained why here on the talk page. Someone deleted some of that material. I have restored it. To my explanation above I add this: the Son of man article may or may not have the Vermes material in it. Regardless, the Son of man article is on the phrase itself. This article is about Jesus. The Vermes material has to do with interpreting "the Son of man" as a title of Jesus. As such, while it may or may not be appropriate for a general article on the term, it is absolutely relevant and appropriate for this article, which is sp;ecifically about the meaning of these terms in reference to Jesus. The Vermes stuff is entirely on point in this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Thadman claims that the section here is only a summary paragraph of the larger Son of Man article - but also seems to think this article is the main article, and Son of man is a sub-page. This is incorrect. This is a sub-page of the Jesus article. Moreover, the Son of man article is not a sub-page of this article. It is a linked page. Moreover, the Son of man is about a larger topic than this article. This article is about Jesus's names and titles. The son of man article is about an idiomatic phrase in Aramaic, one that was used by many people who did not even know who Jesus was. To suggest that the Son of man article is about Jesus is to misrepresent what the phrase son of man means, and violates NPOV. The son of man article is about an Aramaic phrase. This article is about a title of Jesus. The Vermes paragraph is about Jesus's title. It belongs in the article on Jesus' title. The Son of man article is not about Jesus. This article is. Vermes views of Jesus belong in this article.
Also, I disagree with CTSWyneken. A good encyclopedia article attributes different views to those who hold them, and provides sources. I agree that others should be mentioned. I already said this. The fact that the article does not provide the views of other scholars is not a valid reason for deleting one scholar's views - not in this article or any other article. Keep relevant and accurate content. If it is incomplete, don't delete but add. If Thadman wants to add material on Crossan, Funk, etc.s views of Jesus being son of man, by all means add them. That is what writing an encyclopedia is all about. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I seriously but respectfully disagree. First, Wikipedia is not like other encyclopedias in many ways - not being a paper encyclopedia means articles can be more detailed, and the lack of an editorial board means we need to be more specific about the sources (as an indication of quality). What I meant was, other Wikipedia articles do this and we should aspire to do more of it. Second, you say "since we are generalizing" and I guess this is what I object to. We should generalize when there is a concensus, but otherwise generalizing is not required of Wikipedia articles and indeed often disallowed by our NPOV policy, which requires we provide different points of view. (Other encyclopedias often do generalize, but the generalizations often reflect the views of the scholars writing the article - something that does not at all apply to us). Finally, and I see this as a fundamental point, Wikpedia articles are always works in progress. You raise two objections (a) that including Vermes slants the article towards Vermes. But CTSWyneken, can't you see this is only a temporary phenomena? I read Vermes, so I was able to add his views in compliance with our core policies (NPOV, NOR, Cite sources). You should never delete accurate content that complies with these policies, ever. If I included only Vermes view, it is because I do not know the other views. But Wikipedia is also a collaborative project. If I do not know the views of other scholars, someone else who does should add them in. Once other editors join the collaboration, the article will not be slated towards Vermes view, it will represent other views. But this is the only direction to go: add other views - don't delete one view. (b) that adding other views will balloon the article. This is a valid concern. But we cannot act on it preemptively. Let us add to the article - and when it gets too big then we can decide what to do next. In the meantime, your comment does suggest one way that we can be more economical, and that is to see what views can be consolidated. In other words, if four or five different scholars have the same view, we can say many scholars and have a footnote or in-line citation (in order to comply with Cite sources). If other scholars agree with Vermes, instead of providing each scholar's individual view, say, "x, y, and z ..." But you are wrong that if Vermes is the only one holding this view, he should be deleted. He is an important scholar of Jesus and even if other scholars disagree with him, they still respect his scholarship.
I repeat: if you know that other scholars hold other views add them. Frankly, this is a no-brainer. We are writing an encyclopedia. We are not a paper encyclopedia. We should strive to add valuable content. That you and Thadman want to delete Vermes even now makes me wonder whether you are trying to push your own POV on the article. That would be wrong. And I am not trying to push my own POV. I added Vermes because that is what we editors should do, add content that complies with our policies. I have no objection to your adding other views. Why do you object to me doing that? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
My problem is not with Geza Vermes. My problem is that every other subsection in this article has "Son of Man... Geza Vermes says X" "Son of God... Geza Vermes believes Y" "Jesus' favorite food... Geza Vermes claims Z" This is not a "Geza Vermes says" article and I repeat when I say that even when one goes to linked pages they may get that same impression. -- Steve Caruso 03:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've begun to copyedit this paragraph to make it easier to read, to state claims that are not necessarily the views of all scholars to allow for alternate views and to request citations where they are needed. It still needs much work. If no one objects, I'll remove the Vermes paragraph and move the cite up to the earlier statement of his views. -- CTSWyneken 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I object to removing any accurate content relevant to this article e.g. Vermes view of Lord as a title of Jesus. I do not object to adding other views. I do not object to rearranging the section so that it reads better. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I appreciate the clarification. I do not object to what you suggest. I would propose however that in addition to the footnote, we mention the names in the article (e.g. Vermes, y, z). Adding a few names does not create length problems and it does make important information prominent. With all due respect, I suspect you are applying the same principles you applied to the Jesus article, to this article. I thought those principles were perfectly constructive and appropriate for the lead article that is linked to many sub-pages. But this is one of the sub-pages! Details that do not belong in the Jesus article, or that should be exclusively in notes and not in the text, should be in the sub-pages, and prominently so. When people read the highly summarized Jesus article and follow a link for more details on a particular theme, they should arrive at a detailed article, not another summary page.
IF this article were already humongous, I would not be saying these things, I would join you in looking for ways to economize. This was the problem with the Jesus article that led this page to be spun off in the first place. However, this article is nowhere close to a length that requires some economizing solution. Working on this smaller sub-page requires a different approach than that of editing the very large lead article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I agree that readability is important. Being informative is important too. I wouldn't be pushing for inclusion of the Vermes material unless I believed that there is a way to include it without sacrificing readability. If I thought that there was a huge debate involving many scholars with subtley different interpretations and arguments, I would certainly be concerned that the article could get bogged down in overwraught detail. I have assumed - perhaps falsely or naively, but so far I think correctly and realistically - that there are only a few well-known and well-regarded scholars who have written on this topic and that their views easily divide into two, three, or perhaps four different approaches. I think each section of this article should provide a clear account of each different view, and provide one or two names associated with each view, not only because to do so would be accurate and fair to the scholars who have put forward these views, but because learning who these scholars are is I think useful knowledge for readers. That said, if you see ways to tighten the prose, or to better organize the section or article, without cutting accurate and informative content, I am 100% behind you, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I added in the personal name section one of the places where Philo uses Ἰησοῦς for Joshua, Moses' successor. Thesaurus Linguae Graecae shows four other possible occurances. -- CTSWyneken 13:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"This shortening also allowed for some confusion, as the 3rd person imperfect form of שוא [shua`] (to save) is ישוע, allowing the Aramaic name to take on the meaning "He will save.""
This statement is incorrect. ישוע would be the 3rd person imperfect form of שוע (H7768), meaning "he will cry out to God". See Sayings of Jesus on the cross, Aramaic of Jesus.
Strongs 03442 and 03443 in the edition I'm currently looking at agree with what I compiled. -- Steve Caruso 03:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
From Jesus#Name: "The Hebrew name Yĕhôshūa‘, is a compound of the words יָהוּ שׁוּעַ, Yāhû Shûa‘.[18] It literally means, "Yahweh (is) a saving-cry", or in other words, when someone needs help they shout, “Yahweh”, and He responds. The second element, Shûa‘, is a form of the Hebrew root ש-ו-ע, “to cry for help”. It is not a form of the root י-ש-ע, “to save”, even though the root ש-ו-ע probably derives from it.[19] The name Yēshûa‘ (יֵשׁוּעַ from ש-ו-ע) does not equate with the word “salvation”, yĕshû‘āh (יְשׁוּעָה from י-ש-ע), and the similarities in spelling may be coincidental.[20] Older linguistic research, such at Strong's Concordance, translate Shûa‘ as "salvation"."
18: Talshir, p. 374 19: "שׁוע", Ernest Klein, A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language (New York: MacMillan Publishing Company 1987) 20: "יְשׁוּעָה" Klein
First, I would appreciate the signing of comments so I know who to address :-) Second, I suggest as a compromise (as we have debated meaning) that we put a bullet list with them all in similar fashion to that found under the Hebrew name discussion. Does that work for you? -- Steve Caruso 14:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've archived all conversations over a month old. They can now be found under the Archives template on the right. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 01:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
205.188.116.201 from Ames, Iowa, please sign in and state your reasons for consistently wiping edits made to this page. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 13:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, everyone, I think we need to sit down and actually go over what's happening here. One does -not- need to discuss every edit that people go over and make. WP:BOLD outlines this. If there is a problem with the edits that some one has made, the onus is on the person who is complaining to bring their issues to the Talk page and not start an edit war. :-) So, what are the problems with the edits that I have made? What are the problems with Clinkophonist's edits? Let us discuss this, and not squabble back and forth over restoring edits, as of this moment I believe that all of the recent edits that I have made have been reverted, and from other people I'm not sure which edits survived. Let's talk. :-) אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 21:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The present article states quite emphatically: "What we do know for sure is that it originates from the Hebrew יהושוע [yehoshua`]". Apart from the fact that no source is cited for this claim, it is rather stronger than warranted; at best this might be a generally accepted theory. But I further see a contradiction with our article Joshua, which renders the name in Hebrew as יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, where the difference in spelling cannot be a simple mistake, as the text proceeds to discuss the "missing" vav. One can also check here that the name for Moses' companion in Exodus 17:9 (not 17:8 as the present article has) is spelled without vav. In contrast, Yeshua is spelled with a vav (see, e,g, Ezra 5:2). -- Lambiam Talk 18:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I assume that there's supposed to be a yod in the Title of the article given as reference #1... is that right? -- rmagill 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Reading the bit on "Son of God", I read the following:
The phrase itself is thus taken by many to be synonymous with divinity
Why is this marked with a citation tag? I'm removing it; if you want a source (I don't know how to do the little source tag that redirects to the bottom of the page) check the
Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 8 section 2 — it's a document to which many millions have and do adhere.
Nyttend
13:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
YHWH šuā actually stands for Indoeuropean Dīāvā sūnah 'the son of the god', cf. Skr dyāvah 'god', Lith. sūnus 'son'. Roberts7 18:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The following section was formerly in the main article, however, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. At the very least it is complete WP:OR and does not conform to WP:NPOV. אמר Steve Caruso 18:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The usage of the title "God" is given to the Lord Jesus only one time, at that occurs at the Prologue of the Gospel of John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the) God, and the Word was (a) God."
The only other place in the Bible where Jesus is called "God" in the book of Isaiah.
"And his name will be Wondeful Counsellor, Everlasting Father, Mighty God, Prince of Peace."
Many verses in John, the epistles, and Revelation imply support for the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God and the closely related concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John in particular supports Jesus' divinity. This is a partial list of supporting Bible verses:
* John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."[16]The Bible says "God the One and Only" in NIV. * John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it." * John 8:23–24: "But he continued,'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.'" * John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"[17] * John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." * John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." * John 12:41: "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him."—As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:10 refers to Jesus. * John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" * Philippians 2:5–8: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" * Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" * Titus 2:13: "while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." * 1 Timothy 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." * Hebrews 1:8: "But about the Son he [God] says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." * 1 John 5:20: "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." * Revelation 1:17–18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." This is seen as significant when viewed with Isaiah 44:6: "This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
The Bible also refers to Jesus as a man, which is in line with the Trinitarian concept that Jesus was fully human as well as fully divine which is expressed through the theological concept of kenosis.
Light of the World (Jesus) redirects here, but this article doesn't have anything about this topic. -- 62.214.229.215 ( talk) 19:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
A friend of mine once said that in Jesus' day he would have been known (full name) as Yeshua bin Joseph ha Dovidl (spelling is, I think, as how he had it), literally, "Jesus (/Joshua), son of Joseph, of the house of David". Would that form of name construct have been used in Jesus' day, or would just the simple name of "Yeshua" (one name only) be more plausible? (I'm thinking having another name as a distinguishing mark isn't all that uncommon, for some of Jesus' contemporaries were "James, the son of Zebedee" (which leads me to believe that the "son of Zebedee" (bin Zebedee?) was used to distinguish from the other Jameses around at the time) and "Judas Iscariot" - seeing as how "Judas" was/is a common name of Jews at the time, a further identification makes sense, but, as far as I know, Jesus/Joshua was common too, which makes sense that the prophet from Nazareth would have a "more full" name (if you want, a "last name") than just "Jesus". Is Yeshua bin Joseph ha Dovidl likely? -- Canuckguy ( talk) 13:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed this section:
Its sources are articles written by religious groups that make pretty weak linguistic claims and present no proof. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 11:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I came to this page after noticing that Template:Jesus has ישוע in its header image. ישוע is the unvocalized Hebrew spelling of Yeshua. As far as i know, it is not certain that Yeshua was indeed Jesus' Hebrew name. It may also have been Yeshu (ישו), Yehoshua (יהושוע or יהושע) or maybe something else entirely.
The "Personal name" section here does nothing to establish with any certainty that Yeshua was indeed his name. It simply describes the names Yehoshua and Yeshua and the possible linguistic relation between them. This information is reasonable and well-referenced, but it does not necessarily relate to the Jesus of New Testament.
The section should say clearly that the true name is not known - correct me if i'm wrong.
And Hebrew spelling ישוע should be removed from Template:Jesus. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 11:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I've been noticing that several edits to this page have been made lately, the vast majority of them being by an unregistered user with the IP address 66.93.140.42 and all of them (as far as I can see) being made as additions under the "Other titles in the New Testament" heading. Currently there are 89 subheadings. At what point do we draw the line? It almost seems as if we keep going, we're going to end up quoting the entire New Testament. Additionally, the user making additions seems to have a kind of evangelical agenda as seen by the following specific edits. [2] [3] [4] [5] So what do others think? Is this informative or just evangelism? Euphgeek ( talk) 19:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I've removed what seem to me to be a few instances of evangelism - some from the IP 66.93.140.42 mentioned just above. They seem to be stating some Christian beliefs as fact, rather than from an NPOV. I might have misunderstood though, and they might not have been meant like that, so I'll hold off for a while and see what others think. Oscroft ( talk) 20:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, some of it seems quite blatant - removed a bit more today. Oscroft ( talk) 06:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Neutral Point of Views being erased
Almost ALL the root definitions of words (greek/latin/hebrew word origins) have been removed. These were neutral. Also, many links which were neutral have been removed, but the ones that breed skepticism against Christian beliefs have remained. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 02:05, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I and not sure this article represents a neutral point of view. It seems like the entire article is spent trying to provide evidence against the possibility that Jesus considered himself divine. Certainly this is one possibility, but it seems like the article takes too strong of a position. I find it a little humorous that one subsection explains why in the phrase "my lord and my God," "lord" does not necessarily mean "God," but does not attempt to explain why "God" does not necessarily mean "God." Also, this article seems very highly dependent on the scholar Geza Vermez. Is there any way the sources could be diversified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.254.20 ( talk) 06:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The page excludes the important title "Word of God." -- Ephilei ( talk) 23:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The article should maybe point out that the Old Testament has been a source of christology just as well. There is a notable work on the subject by Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg. ADM ( talk) 20:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The introduction to this page says that christology is the study of the names. This seems to be false on its face, since all the theology I've studied purporting to be christological has dealt with the nature of Christ rather than names. If the study of the names is a branch of christology, though--which is absolutely plausible--shouldn't the linked christology page have some material on that? In any event, clarification is probably in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.162.115 ( talk) 07:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Some names and titles are hotly contested; these should be grouped into a Disputed section to avoid cluttering the article with contention. I can do that soon. Incidentally, a response regarding an existing thread is usually best kept within that thread and section rather than as a new section with a new title. -- AuthorityTam ( talk) 16:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I can actually see sense in either keeping the article to titles of Jesus in the NT, or extending it to be those titles, with discussion of titles which are contentious between religious traditions that are based on the NT.
One way to solve the issue is to do both things: we have a WP:List of titles sourced on the many books that do list Jesus' titles from the NT; AND we have an article, like the current one, which discusses differences of opinion regarding how the titles are to be interpreted, or whether the NT actually offers them.
Alternatively, it might be good to admit that the List article would be very long, and might not be a good idea. Instead, we should just have an article simply called
One problem with this article, as it currently stands, is that it tries to be a list. I'd suggest one way forward would be to create the list article, with information already in this article. Then remove list items here that have no debate. This article can then develop by using reliable sources which discuss the names and titles of Jesus. And those reliable sources should include all points of view, not just the mainstream Christian point of view. Alastair Haines ( talk) 06:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone REMOVED the title "TRUE GOD", along with it's newly cited encyclopedia/biblical references. The reference requirement was met. Please reinstate the title "TRUE GOD".
The references/sources that wikipedia requires were at the ORIGINAL web links. But these links were changed to inferior links. Before these changes, ALL links contained verifiable references. Now, most of the names/titles are tagged because these references/sources are lacking. Changing the web links back will not only solve the problem of verifiable sources, it will also answer questions that people now complain about "not understanding", or "not making sense", etc. Changing back to the original web links may also hold answers to the "disputed titles" debate below. Most of the current problems have arisen because changes were made to the content (erasing relevant information) and/or changing the external links. With these changes, it is now fairly easy to erase the names/titles of Jesus because the resourced links--with references/resources/explanations all on one page--are gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 06:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I found this seller statement,
The title Christ occurs in the Hebrew Bible...
The word "Christ" is English and it would never be found in a Hebrew language Bible! Now if they're referring to the Christian reference Old Testament and meaning Messiah or something else...maybe...arge! Basileias ( talk) 01:19, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
some 50 or more tags have been placed to every title entry stating there's no reference nor source to such title when a portion of biblical scripture is quoted and the reference for that portion of scripture is provided... then there are the references, and the article's title reads: Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament then New testament is source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.119.128 ( talk) 00:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
A Table summarized the names of Jesus (Messiah, Jehovah, Yeshua, etc.) by languages: Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English. It presented a clear overview of how Jesus' name changed with time, and how its original meaning is lost in Greek, Latin, and English. It was a great help in understanding how the many "different names" of Jesus have one origin, and are but one name. Why was this table--with its reliable references--deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 02:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Please add - 1. Wonderful, 2. Counselor, 3. The Mighty God, 4. The everlasting Father and 5. The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
trichagc June 23, 2009
The author of one website has a Doctors Degree in Theology (D.D.). The other website uses authentic Hebrew dictionaries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 02:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
The title "Yeshua" is reinstated per the above discussion: (1) since both references are reliable and reputable, and (2) since the claims are not "pretty weak linguistic claims" as first thought, and (3) since no other objections to these impeccable credentials are given. It is important to retain the title Yeshua because newer Bible translations are beginning to use this name "Yeshua" (or other Aramaic-Hebrew spellings of this name) in place of the name "Jesus". The meaning of Messiah and God (YHWH) is clear with the original Aramaic-Hebrew name "Yeshua"; whereas, the meaning of Messiah is lost with the English name "Jesus". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 06:17, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is this title and all my edits (added references) ERASED AGAIN? We have discussed that the two references are reliable, and not "weak linguistic claims". Let me reiterate--some English Bibles only use Yeshua (or spelling variations of this name) (The name Jesus is not used.) Thus, "Yeshua | Yashua" deserves its own title heading. It is the name Jesus' mom gave Him.
Below is the title to reinstate.
Some Bibles Translations use Jesus' original name "Yeshua". The table below shows how Jesus' name "Yeshua" (from root "YHWH + yasha") have changed in its spelling. [1]
Aramaic | Hebrew | Greek, Latin | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|
Name | Y'shua, Yeshua [2] | YHWH + yasha (root) `Yehoshua, [3] Yahushua [4] and their shortened forms: Y'shua, [5] Yeshua, [6], Yahshua (=Jeshua=Joshua), [7] Yashua [8]. | Iesous(Greek) Iēsus, Iesu (Latin) |
Jesus [9] |
Meaning | "YAH saves", "YAH is salvation". (Same meaning as in Hebrew. Aramaic (Syriac) is thought to be Jesus' spoken language. [10]) | "God is salvation". Joshua = "Yahweh is salvation". [11] ["Jehovah is salvation" is the same as "YHWH is salvation". The word "Jehovah" is "YHWH", with vowels added.] [12] | "Iesous" and "Iesus" were translated by sound. The original meaning is lost and corrupted in both Greek and Latin. [13] | "Jesus" was re-translated from Latin. The prophetic and sanctified meaning of "YHWH" (God) is lost in English. |
Yeshua is the original Aramaic (or late Hebrew) name for Jesus-—a contraction of yehÖshÙa (Joshua), "help of Jehovah" + yÀh, "Jehovah" + hÖshïa, "to help."
[7] In Hebrew, YESHUA is from the Hebrew YESHA—Yud Shin Ayin—meaning "Help," "Salvation," "Deliverance."
[14]
[15] "Yeshua (Jesus) is YHVH in the flesh."
[16] Another name for Jesus, derived from
YHWH, may be spelled:
Yahshua, which means "Yahweh is salvation," or "God is salvation". --"Jesus is salvation" for all true followers because he took the punishment for man's sins on the cross, enabling the
forgiveness of sins, the
empowerment of the Holy Spirit to overcome evil, and the
gift of eternal life in heaven ("saved" from hell").
[17]
Please remove or correct this personal opinion. The trinity doctrine is not related to this article and is a matter of doctrinal argument.
Trinity is not found anywhere in the scriptures.
There is no God the Father, God the Word and God the Holy Spirit. It is the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. It is a misquote.
The fact is that this verse says that they are one and not three, not three in one.
Word
1 John 5:7 says there are three persons (not one person) in the Godhead—also called “Trinity”—(1) God, the Father; (2) God, the Word (Jesus); and (3) God, the Holy Spirit. John writes: ‘‘“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”‘‘
trichagc June 23, 2009
There are at least three types of disputes.
" Creator" and " Holy One" don't cite a single translation with the terms "Creator" or "Holy One"; the section " Christ Crucified" insufficiently demonstrates that 1 Cor 1:23 contains more than a simple noun (Christ) and verb (crucified) rather than a formal title.
-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 19:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
If you note below, the subject of Disputed Items often pertains to the deity of Jesus--Jesus is God. Also, the most controversy and debate under the "Names and Titles of Jesus" also pertain to the deity of Jesus, or as Lord/God/Saviour of man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.50.144 ( talk) 19:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I looked a few of these up and Jude 1:4 doesn't make any sense quoting it in a reference to deity for Jesus. I also wasn't able to quickly find any quality sources that claim that. I'm fine with it and I think we can remove Jude 1:4 from the article. Basileias ( talk) 00:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
"Christ Crucified" isn't any kind of title that I can tell. That can probably be removed also. Basileias ( talk) 00:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the context, "Lord is Lord of all" doesn't appear to be a title. Basileias ( talk) 01:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
This one differs depending on the translation used. There is a title but this could use some outside sources. I'm not sure if it refers to "God the Father" because I didn't see that wording in the translations I looked in. Basileias ( talk) 01:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
See
Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament#True God and
User talk:Alastair Haines#True God and 1 John 5:20.
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
18:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have added the title "conquerer of the world" to Lord Jesus Christ. Please hold it. I am a good christian and will read bible that is with me and update it better. If you have any question please email I will answer you immediatly. |
Last edited at 19:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 21:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
As of right now, the only links to the article are some that obsess over the "J" sound in the modern English version of the name, despite the fact that ALL ancient words beginning in "Y" have come to begin with "J", by an ordinary and normal process of linguistic development, if they went through Old French, or had their pronunciation affected by the French pronunciation of Latin words. This applies to many dozens of Biblical names, as well as to numerous ordinary words such as "Judge" (pronounced Yoodeks in ancient Latin).
I guess I'll add a link to my site http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/yeshua-yasu-isa.htm for balance, but the article really needs more work. AnonMoos 22:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
“Jesus is derived from the Latin Iesus, which in turn comes from the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs).” Jesus was first written in early Latin as "IESVS" before adaption of letter U/u in the Middle Ages. Perhaps early Romans confused Greek letters ν (lower case Nu) and υ (lower case Upsilon). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet (Evolution) “V stood for both u and v.” “The Roman alphabet is an adaptation of the Greek alphabet to represent the phonemes of the Latin language” My native language Finnish is ideal and exact in investigating evolution of languages cause without few exception Finnish is written same way as pronounced (one letter = one phoneme). Finnish does not have any “vowel pair sounds” like French or English does, e.g. Y[ou] in English , V[ou]s in French. Finnish also the most ideal language for computerized Speech_recognition -- Unsigned by User 213.216.199.18 or JPV
In the 1611 KJV, did they use Iesus or Jesus? in 1611, did they pronounce the Name as yesu or jeezus? when did they start to say jeezus instead of Yesu? when the Name was printed as Jesus did they pronouce it as Yesu or jeezus? what other language pronounces jeezus? why did people start to say jeezus? if the Name was originally spelt Iesus, and when changed to Jesus they still pronouced Yesu, why did they go to jeezus? "J was originally a capital of I." if they spelt "Jesus" when people were saying Yesu, why aren't they saying Yesu instead of jeezus? -- Unsigned by 138.89.68.186
Dear Friends: I'm not sure what the fuss is over here. Both versions of the text seem to say the same thing to me and I can read Greek and, with some lexical aid, Hebrew. Could we stop the edit war and do as Jayg suggested, talk out what we're going to say? -- CTSWyneken 19:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. My problems are not with Matthew 1:21 (I was the one who contributed it in the first place back in 2005-12-27 14:42:38), but with the insertion of numerous, repetitive references to the Gospel of John to talk about divinity rather than titles, while removing statements that bring up mention of how these phrases attributed to Jesus had other uses in a historical context. -- Steve Caruso 19:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
In the beginning, there was an article called Jesus. In the attempt to represent all views, the page became too long. Contributers decided to use the Jesus article to highlight Christian views, with brief summaries of other views linked to other articles. This is one of them. With a topic so vast as "Jesus," where there is such divergent views between athiests, Christians and critical scholars, NPOV can be achieved only by having several linked articles covering different bodies of research and thought. This article focuses on how historians interpret the names of Jesus in their historical context. There are already other articles that do the same thing from the Christian POV. Now, we can go to those articles and add in all the research done by critical historians, and once again have a page that is too long. Or we can have a constellation of linked pages which draw on differrent bodies of research. It was the latter that contributors decided on a couple of years ago for practical, not ideological, reasons. Those practical reasons apply today. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
152.163.100.68 and others want to insert selective quotes from the NT in order to make interpretive claims. This violates our NOR policy. How Christians interpret these names and titles, and why, is a legitimate topic for an article. But it should be another article, and indeed, this material is already covered in other articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what you just said is what this article was originally and in my opinion should continue to be about. I would only add, "What readers (or listeners) would have understood these titles, as best as scholars can reconstruct." In short, it takes a specific point of view, which is that how certain words were understood in first century Palestine was different from how Christians even by the second century would have understood. My primary source when I worked on this was Geza Vermes whose work is pretty well-respected but of course if you know work by other scholars attempting to do the same thing - understand these words in their historical rather than theological context - I hope you will add to it.
And of course, do make sure that the other linked articles adequately express the Christian point (or points) of view, by all means!
I am glad we agree on principle. I provide two links other articles that deal with Christian understandings of Jesus, prominently. And those articles, needless to say, report entirely on the Christian view of Jesus. I have no objection to this, as long as views of critical historians are included. before I made my edits, this page looked more like a debate between what critical historians argue (all sourced, of course) and what Christians say. I don't think that makes for a useful argument. At most I would say divide the article into two halves, one on Critical scholars views, and one on Christian views - except any content in the second section is already found in other articles! I just want to be clear that I am not trying to censor a particular point of view, I am just trying to maintain the principles that led to a long series of articles concerning Jesus, which has evolved over the years, a series which cannot be combined into one article for technical reasons, and which taken together do I believe comply with our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've done some clean up of the look and read of this section. I don't type Hebrew too well, so if someone will add the Hebrew for the word "Yehoshuah" next to the transliteration, I'd appreciate it.
I'm also not attached to the particular wording I've inserted. Feel free to improve the prose.
Also, a couple of questions for our Hebrew scholars:
1 -- Is the name better translated "YHWH saves" or "YHWH is salvation?" 2 -- Does anyone find it offensive for the Name to be spelled out or transliterated in the Wiki? -- CTSWyneken 16:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This leaves out the content that I posted concerning how the Aramaic use was reflected in the Greek text of Matthew. "He will save" is what ישוע (the third person singular imperfect of "to save") translates to. My point was as follows: "For you will name him Jesus ('ישוע' : lit in Aram., he will save) for he will save them from their sins." This points towards an Aramaic useage, not a Hebrew one. Additionally, the shortening of yehoshua to yeshua` only occurs in the exhillic and post-exhillic books of the Old Testament. The lingua franca of the Babylonian Empire was Aramaic. Overall, it would have been highly unlikely that Jesus was referred to by the Hebrew name on a daily basis. -- Steve Caruso 19:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Steve Caruso's point is interesting - as are CTSWyneken's. I think the basic issue goes back to the vastness of Jesus as a topic, and the need for multiple articles to cover all views. Steve Caruso, is this your own reading of the text? If so, it violates NOR. However, if this is something you have read in Christion/homiletical literature, I think you can insert your point into either the Christology article or the Jesus in the New Testament article. If you know of a critical scholar who has made this point, by all means put it in this article and if you can, cite the source. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon: "in any case it came to be associated with ישע, cf. Mat I.21;" ישע=salvation
A ton of scripture references were added to the article, making it hard to look at. I've moved them to the notes. Will do further clean up later. Also, given the controversy on the main page ( Jesus), could we cite sources for this material? -- CTSWyneken 11:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Can you be more specific? Aren't these facts of evidence? Links have been provided to the actual Hebrew verses, the Greek (Rahlfs) can be found here: http://septuagint.org/LXX/ and other places. The Greek name for the Book of Joshua is IESOUS/Jesus, sometimes called Jesus Nave (Jesus son of Nun) to distinquish from Jesus the Nazarene.
If you want one specific reference: Walter Bauer et al. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature: "Ἰησοῦς (יֵשׁוּעַ Jeshua, later form for יְהוֹשׁוּעַ Joshua; [references cited])"
The reference is very well known among students of the Greek bible. As it is a Lexicon, the quote is from the entry under Ἰησοῦς. Here is the reference at Amazon: link Most good libraries have a copy in their reference section.
What seems to be the problem? I have the second edition of Bauer, 1979, ISBN:0226039323. It says exactly what is quoted above. I don't know if you fully realize it, but a citation in Bauer for Koine Greek is the equivalent of a citation in the OED for modern English, i.e. it doesn't get any better. Bauer is the standard reference for Koine Greek. There is a new 3rd edition, year 2000 I believe, I really doubt it says anything different, what is being said here is hardly anywhere near controversial.
Walter Bauer. "Ἰησοῦς." Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature2nd ed. 1979.
There's just three English editions: 1957, 1979, 2000. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13055.ctl http://www.google.com/search?q=Bauer's%20Greek%20English%20Lexicon
Raymond E. Brown, in Theological Studies [1] #26 (1965) p.545-73 wrote an article entitled "Does the NT call Jesus God?" which can be summarized as follows: Mk10:18, Lk18:19, Mt19:17, Mk15:34, Mt27:46, Jn20:17, Eph1:17, 2Cor1:3, 1Pt1:3, Jn17:3, 1Cor8:6, Eph4:4-6, 1Cor12:4-6, 2Cor13:14, 1Tm2:5, Jn14:28, Mk13:32, Ph2:5-10, 1Cor15:24-28 are "texts that seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus" and are "negative evidence which is often somewhat neglected in Catholic treatments of the subject." Also: "Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels, and a passage like Mk 10:18 would seem to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. Even the fourth Gospel never portrays Jesus as saying specifically that he is God. The sermons which Acts attributes to the beginning of the Christian mission do not speak of Jesus as God. Thus, there is no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of New Testament tradition. This negative conclusion is substantiated by the fact that Paul does not use the title in any epistle written before 58." And "The slow development of the usage of the title God for Jesus requires explanation. Not only is there the factor that Jesus is not called God in the earlier strata of New Testament material, but also there are passages, cited in the first series of texts above, that by implication reserve the title God for the Father. Moreover, even in the New Testament works that speak of Jesus as God, there are also passages that seem to militate against such a usage - a study of these texts will show that this is true of the Pastorals and the Johannine literature. The most plausible explanation is that in the earliest stage of Christianity the Old Testament heritage dominated the use of the title God; hence, God was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus. It referred strictly to the Father of Jesus, to the God whom he prayed. Gradually, (in the 50's and 60's?) in the development of Christian thought God was understood to be a broader term. It was seen that God had revealed so much of Himself in Jesus that God had to be able to include both Father and Son."
Look, I'm not interested in edit wars. So if John 1:1 is going to be taken out of the article, because it is not a direct reference to Jesus, please present a scholar who says that Logos refers to something other than Jesus in John 1:1. Morris, echoing every scholar, of ever persuasion, that I've ever read, says: "Of particular interest and importance is the use of the term Logos or Word, which is applied to Christ in these verses..." (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, NICNT, p. 63). If the scholarly consensus is that Logos refers to Jesus here, then the reference to John 1:1 needs to say in the article. -- MonkeeSage 00:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
My point was not regarding the translation of the last clause of v. 1, it was regarding the indentification of Jesus as the Logos. Granted that the reading of all the major Bible translations is accurate (viz., "the Word was God"), the following argument holds absolutely:
Let A represent: "The Logos is called God"
Let B represent: "Jesus is the Logos"
Let C represent: "Jesus is called God"
The only question, then, is whether the Logos is identified with Jesus (B), which I believe is the scholarly consensus.
Now regarding the issue of the translation of v. 1c, there is a consensus there as well, I think (consensus = 75% or greater), seeing as all major committee produced translations, as well as several standard grammars (e.g., Dana-Mantey), have the reading "the Word was God". -- MonkeeSage 03:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is a page which reviews almost all the relevant discussion from the grammarians on the translation of John 1:1c, with lots of primary source quotes: link. See also the NET Bible footnote (by Wallace), which likewise makes the identification of Jesus=Logos in passing while discussing the grammatical issues in john 1:1c: link. -- MonkeeSage 06:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If you really want to learn, read Raymond Brown's Commentary on the Gospel of John. The pre-existant word ("Let there be light") is only loosely connected with Jesus. Also, the Greek of this passage is particularly thorny, it probably can't be accurately translated into English. Brown notes that "and the word was divine" is one of several valid translations of the Greek. Ditto for "and the word was toward God". Brown warns against reading this verse in a post-Nicene context, there is much more to it than that.
Are you kidding me? The concept of Logos is HUGE in Greek philosophy, not to mention the "word of God" in Judaism, and similar concepts in other cultures: Persian, Indian, Chinese, etc. I took a quick look at your online reference and wasn't very impressed, it is primarily apologetic, you'll find the serious references in Brown's book which is considered the current standard reference on the Gospel of John. If you want to get really scholarly, Brown's "Does the NT call Jesus God?" article is probably the best you can get.
Let me try to simplify this for you: Many scholars think that the Logos in John 1 refers to the Logos. Of course, that's probably why John chose to use that word instead of Jesus. If he wanted to say Jesus is God, there was nothing preventing him from saying so. There are a number of such direct, unambiguous statements in the NT, such as about Herod being god, and Paul being god, but none about Jesus.
They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
"The gods have come down to us in human form!"
The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.
That sums John up right there -> "No one has ever seen God". Jesus, of course, was seen by many.
"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." KJV
The word of God ("Let there be light") is divine and became incarnate in Jesus.
Indeed! Please at least sign you edits using four tildes (4 x ~). -- MonkeeSage 12:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Folks, it does not matter what we think the translation of this passage is. The fact is that a substantial number of scholars think that it is a point blank statement of Jesus as God and a substantial number that it is not. We can solve the problem by crafting text that represents both views. -- CTSWyneken 11:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If we have John 1:1 listed as a footnote in the current section, why should we need additional mention of it at all? It is not enough to let readers draw their own conclusion by reading through the footnotes? If not, then I'm siding with CTSWyneken and I strongly suggest that we draft a copy of it here in the Talk page before posting it. -- Steve Caruso 14:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
If there is a reference made to Jesus referred to as "Theos", should there not be a note that it is missing the definite article (i.e. John 1:1), and this is why the meaning of the word is debated (not to mention the rest of the scriptures). -- Oscillate 14:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply that we need anything more than the footnote. I was arguing above that we should include the footnote, that's all. Since the scholarly consensus (or at least majority) recognize that theos is a title referring to deity in some sense (whether definite "God," qualitative "what God is," or indefinite "a god"), and that Jesus is identified with the Logos, there is really no need to note anything about the grammar and syntax of the passage and so on. I think just indicating that there is dispute over the meaning of the title as applied to Jesus is sufficient. -- MonkeeSage 06:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The current article states: "(יְהוֹשׁוּעַ). Yehoshua means "the Lord is salvation" (literally "Jehovah is salvation")." Actually, it literally means: Yahoo, help us!
Another reference if you're looking for references: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=544&letter=J&search=Joshua In Hebrew יהושוע (Deut. iii. 21; Judges ii. 7) and commonly יהושע (Judges ii. 7a; Ex. xvii. 9; Josh. i. 1) correspond to אלישוע = "helped by Yhwh," the shorter form being הושע = "help" or "one who helped" (Num. xiii. 8; Deut. xxxii. 44; here probably an error for יהושוע ). The Septuagint has Ἰησους; the Vulgate, usually "Josue," but "Jesus" in Ecclus. (Sirach) xlvi. 1; I Macc. ii. 55; II Macc. xii. 15, identical with ישוע, the post-exilic form of the name.
I had to do the Hebrew by hand, hopefully I got it correct.
It's close, but I think it's a mistake. שוע/shua is to cry out for help, ישע/isha is salvation. Cite from above: Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon: "in any case it came to be associated with ישע, cf. Mat I.21;" ישע=salvation. I think the current revision of Jesus#Name says the same thing, with references cited.
On the issue itself, both meaning are a part of the word. There are several Hebrew words that have the sense of help (like the ezer in ebenezer). Here we are influenced by the Greek of the report of the gospels of the instructions to Joseph:
τέξεται δὲ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν· αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν.
σώσει kind of locks in the "salvation" denotation. -- CTSWyneken 11:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the "extension" is Matthew 1:21, which may or may not be correct. In any case, there are references to this discussion at Jesus#Name.
It's contested whether שוע means he saves. The primary meaning is H7768, "he cries out for help."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/7/1143868368-74.html
From Jesus#Name: "The name Yēshûa‘ (יֵשׁוּעַ from ש-ו-ע) does not equate with the word “salvation”, yĕshû‘āh (יְשׁוּעָה from י-ש-ע), and the similarities in spelling are a coincidence."
Wikipedia:No personal attacks Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will never help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping create a good encyclopedia.
No, it is not a policy. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines -- Vlad the Impaler
Dear folks:
The reference to non-Biblical works are incomplete. Please expand them. We need full publication information or we are guilty of not fully recognizing the works of others. -- CTSWyneken 11:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Walter Bauer, et.al., 2nd ed., University of Chicago, 1979, ISBN:0226039323
The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, Hendrickson, 1979, ISBN:0913573205
Speaking of references, we have no info on Strong's either. -- CTSWyneken 12:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Strong's should be public domain.
The current article states: "Yehoshua originally meant "Jehovah is [my] help" or "Jehovah helps", but by as early as the second century BCE, had come to mean "Jehovah is salvation"."
Jehovah was "unknown until 1520, when it was introduced by Galantinus" Ref: New BDB, 1979. Further more, it is an error. See Tetragrammaton#Jehovah for details.
Yes, Sirach 46:1 says Joshua son of Nun means "savior of his elect", Philo's On the Change of Names XXI says Moses gave that same Joshua his name which means "the salvation of the Lord" --- and from that you conclude that Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation"? Who do you think you fool?
Jehovah is the invention, and it has been discredited. See also Iaoue and Iabe.
Religious Jews consider יהוה to be unpronounceable. The pronounciation Jehovah is not offensive, actually it is somewhat comical as it shows a serious lack of understanding of the
Masoretic Text.
Wilhelm Gesenius proposed יַהְוֶה which would be Yahweh. You can read more about it here:
Yahweh#Wilhelm_Gesenius_Punctuated_YHWH_as_.22.D7.99.D6.B7.D7.94.D6.B0.D7.95.D6.B6.D7.94.22_.28i.e._Yahweh.29
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=206&letter=J
"The reading "Jehovah" is a comparatively recent invention. The earlier Christian commentators report that the Tetragrammaton was written but not pronounced by the Jews (see Theodoret, "Question. xv. in Ex." [Field, "Hexapla," i. 90, to Ex. vi. 3]; Jerome, "Præfatio Regnorum," and his letter to Marcellus, "Epistola," 136, where he notices that "PIPI" [= ΠIΠI = יהוה] is presented in Greek manuscripts; Origen, see "Hexapla" to Ps. lxxi. 18 and Isa. i. 2; comp. concordance to LXX. by Hatch and Redpath, under ΠIΠI, which occasionally takes the place of the usual κύριος, in Philo's Bible quotations; κύριος = "Adonay" is the regular translation; see also Aquila)."
I see an improvement, but we still need to fill these out. Because editions vary, editors and translators vary, in some cases, authors vary, we need for the first reference to each work:
Author of the entry. "title of the entry." edition. editors (up to at least two, better three, then et Al.), tramslators if different from the editors. Place: Publisher, date. Page of entry. If online, the URL.
After these, the author, and page number are sufficient. -- CTSWyneken 21:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I have just added content that was in the original version of the article but that had been removed. I suspect it was removed in order to make this a shorter article, with details in linked articles. I think this is neither necessary nor effective. It is not necessary because the article is not too long for anyone's server, not by a long shot. It is not wise because many of the linked articles (not all) are not specifically about Jesus or Christianity. They thus say nothing about the "names and titles of Jesus." I have restored content that is specific to Geza Vermes' arguments about the names and titles of Jesus. This is only one point of view, although it is a very well-regarded point of view. If the problem is that other points of views need to be represented, the solution is to add, not to delete. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I am glad you find my edit acceptable - I did try to be judicious in wha I restored. Let's keep an eye on length, but I think for now it is fine. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I had restored some material drawing on Geza Vermes and explained why here on the talk page. Someone deleted some of that material. I have restored it. To my explanation above I add this: the Son of man article may or may not have the Vermes material in it. Regardless, the Son of man article is on the phrase itself. This article is about Jesus. The Vermes material has to do with interpreting "the Son of man" as a title of Jesus. As such, while it may or may not be appropriate for a general article on the term, it is absolutely relevant and appropriate for this article, which is sp;ecifically about the meaning of these terms in reference to Jesus. The Vermes stuff is entirely on point in this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Thadman claims that the section here is only a summary paragraph of the larger Son of Man article - but also seems to think this article is the main article, and Son of man is a sub-page. This is incorrect. This is a sub-page of the Jesus article. Moreover, the Son of man article is not a sub-page of this article. It is a linked page. Moreover, the Son of man is about a larger topic than this article. This article is about Jesus's names and titles. The son of man article is about an idiomatic phrase in Aramaic, one that was used by many people who did not even know who Jesus was. To suggest that the Son of man article is about Jesus is to misrepresent what the phrase son of man means, and violates NPOV. The son of man article is about an Aramaic phrase. This article is about a title of Jesus. The Vermes paragraph is about Jesus's title. It belongs in the article on Jesus' title. The Son of man article is not about Jesus. This article is. Vermes views of Jesus belong in this article.
Also, I disagree with CTSWyneken. A good encyclopedia article attributes different views to those who hold them, and provides sources. I agree that others should be mentioned. I already said this. The fact that the article does not provide the views of other scholars is not a valid reason for deleting one scholar's views - not in this article or any other article. Keep relevant and accurate content. If it is incomplete, don't delete but add. If Thadman wants to add material on Crossan, Funk, etc.s views of Jesus being son of man, by all means add them. That is what writing an encyclopedia is all about. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I seriously but respectfully disagree. First, Wikipedia is not like other encyclopedias in many ways - not being a paper encyclopedia means articles can be more detailed, and the lack of an editorial board means we need to be more specific about the sources (as an indication of quality). What I meant was, other Wikipedia articles do this and we should aspire to do more of it. Second, you say "since we are generalizing" and I guess this is what I object to. We should generalize when there is a concensus, but otherwise generalizing is not required of Wikipedia articles and indeed often disallowed by our NPOV policy, which requires we provide different points of view. (Other encyclopedias often do generalize, but the generalizations often reflect the views of the scholars writing the article - something that does not at all apply to us). Finally, and I see this as a fundamental point, Wikpedia articles are always works in progress. You raise two objections (a) that including Vermes slants the article towards Vermes. But CTSWyneken, can't you see this is only a temporary phenomena? I read Vermes, so I was able to add his views in compliance with our core policies (NPOV, NOR, Cite sources). You should never delete accurate content that complies with these policies, ever. If I included only Vermes view, it is because I do not know the other views. But Wikipedia is also a collaborative project. If I do not know the views of other scholars, someone else who does should add them in. Once other editors join the collaboration, the article will not be slated towards Vermes view, it will represent other views. But this is the only direction to go: add other views - don't delete one view. (b) that adding other views will balloon the article. This is a valid concern. But we cannot act on it preemptively. Let us add to the article - and when it gets too big then we can decide what to do next. In the meantime, your comment does suggest one way that we can be more economical, and that is to see what views can be consolidated. In other words, if four or five different scholars have the same view, we can say many scholars and have a footnote or in-line citation (in order to comply with Cite sources). If other scholars agree with Vermes, instead of providing each scholar's individual view, say, "x, y, and z ..." But you are wrong that if Vermes is the only one holding this view, he should be deleted. He is an important scholar of Jesus and even if other scholars disagree with him, they still respect his scholarship.
I repeat: if you know that other scholars hold other views add them. Frankly, this is a no-brainer. We are writing an encyclopedia. We are not a paper encyclopedia. We should strive to add valuable content. That you and Thadman want to delete Vermes even now makes me wonder whether you are trying to push your own POV on the article. That would be wrong. And I am not trying to push my own POV. I added Vermes because that is what we editors should do, add content that complies with our policies. I have no objection to your adding other views. Why do you object to me doing that? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
My problem is not with Geza Vermes. My problem is that every other subsection in this article has "Son of Man... Geza Vermes says X" "Son of God... Geza Vermes believes Y" "Jesus' favorite food... Geza Vermes claims Z" This is not a "Geza Vermes says" article and I repeat when I say that even when one goes to linked pages they may get that same impression. -- Steve Caruso 03:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've begun to copyedit this paragraph to make it easier to read, to state claims that are not necessarily the views of all scholars to allow for alternate views and to request citations where they are needed. It still needs much work. If no one objects, I'll remove the Vermes paragraph and move the cite up to the earlier statement of his views. -- CTSWyneken 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I object to removing any accurate content relevant to this article e.g. Vermes view of Lord as a title of Jesus. I do not object to adding other views. I do not object to rearranging the section so that it reads better. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I appreciate the clarification. I do not object to what you suggest. I would propose however that in addition to the footnote, we mention the names in the article (e.g. Vermes, y, z). Adding a few names does not create length problems and it does make important information prominent. With all due respect, I suspect you are applying the same principles you applied to the Jesus article, to this article. I thought those principles were perfectly constructive and appropriate for the lead article that is linked to many sub-pages. But this is one of the sub-pages! Details that do not belong in the Jesus article, or that should be exclusively in notes and not in the text, should be in the sub-pages, and prominently so. When people read the highly summarized Jesus article and follow a link for more details on a particular theme, they should arrive at a detailed article, not another summary page.
IF this article were already humongous, I would not be saying these things, I would join you in looking for ways to economize. This was the problem with the Jesus article that led this page to be spun off in the first place. However, this article is nowhere close to a length that requires some economizing solution. Working on this smaller sub-page requires a different approach than that of editing the very large lead article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I agree that readability is important. Being informative is important too. I wouldn't be pushing for inclusion of the Vermes material unless I believed that there is a way to include it without sacrificing readability. If I thought that there was a huge debate involving many scholars with subtley different interpretations and arguments, I would certainly be concerned that the article could get bogged down in overwraught detail. I have assumed - perhaps falsely or naively, but so far I think correctly and realistically - that there are only a few well-known and well-regarded scholars who have written on this topic and that their views easily divide into two, three, or perhaps four different approaches. I think each section of this article should provide a clear account of each different view, and provide one or two names associated with each view, not only because to do so would be accurate and fair to the scholars who have put forward these views, but because learning who these scholars are is I think useful knowledge for readers. That said, if you see ways to tighten the prose, or to better organize the section or article, without cutting accurate and informative content, I am 100% behind you, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I added in the personal name section one of the places where Philo uses Ἰησοῦς for Joshua, Moses' successor. Thesaurus Linguae Graecae shows four other possible occurances. -- CTSWyneken 13:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"This shortening also allowed for some confusion, as the 3rd person imperfect form of שוא [shua`] (to save) is ישוע, allowing the Aramaic name to take on the meaning "He will save.""
This statement is incorrect. ישוע would be the 3rd person imperfect form of שוע (H7768), meaning "he will cry out to God". See Sayings of Jesus on the cross, Aramaic of Jesus.
Strongs 03442 and 03443 in the edition I'm currently looking at agree with what I compiled. -- Steve Caruso 03:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
From Jesus#Name: "The Hebrew name Yĕhôshūa‘, is a compound of the words יָהוּ שׁוּעַ, Yāhû Shûa‘.[18] It literally means, "Yahweh (is) a saving-cry", or in other words, when someone needs help they shout, “Yahweh”, and He responds. The second element, Shûa‘, is a form of the Hebrew root ש-ו-ע, “to cry for help”. It is not a form of the root י-ש-ע, “to save”, even though the root ש-ו-ע probably derives from it.[19] The name Yēshûa‘ (יֵשׁוּעַ from ש-ו-ע) does not equate with the word “salvation”, yĕshû‘āh (יְשׁוּעָה from י-ש-ע), and the similarities in spelling may be coincidental.[20] Older linguistic research, such at Strong's Concordance, translate Shûa‘ as "salvation"."
18: Talshir, p. 374 19: "שׁוע", Ernest Klein, A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language (New York: MacMillan Publishing Company 1987) 20: "יְשׁוּעָה" Klein
First, I would appreciate the signing of comments so I know who to address :-) Second, I suggest as a compromise (as we have debated meaning) that we put a bullet list with them all in similar fashion to that found under the Hebrew name discussion. Does that work for you? -- Steve Caruso 14:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've archived all conversations over a month old. They can now be found under the Archives template on the right. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 01:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
205.188.116.201 from Ames, Iowa, please sign in and state your reasons for consistently wiping edits made to this page. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 13:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, everyone, I think we need to sit down and actually go over what's happening here. One does -not- need to discuss every edit that people go over and make. WP:BOLD outlines this. If there is a problem with the edits that some one has made, the onus is on the person who is complaining to bring their issues to the Talk page and not start an edit war. :-) So, what are the problems with the edits that I have made? What are the problems with Clinkophonist's edits? Let us discuss this, and not squabble back and forth over restoring edits, as of this moment I believe that all of the recent edits that I have made have been reverted, and from other people I'm not sure which edits survived. Let's talk. :-) אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 21:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The present article states quite emphatically: "What we do know for sure is that it originates from the Hebrew יהושוע [yehoshua`]". Apart from the fact that no source is cited for this claim, it is rather stronger than warranted; at best this might be a generally accepted theory. But I further see a contradiction with our article Joshua, which renders the name in Hebrew as יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, where the difference in spelling cannot be a simple mistake, as the text proceeds to discuss the "missing" vav. One can also check here that the name for Moses' companion in Exodus 17:9 (not 17:8 as the present article has) is spelled without vav. In contrast, Yeshua is spelled with a vav (see, e,g, Ezra 5:2). -- Lambiam Talk 18:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I assume that there's supposed to be a yod in the Title of the article given as reference #1... is that right? -- rmagill 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Reading the bit on "Son of God", I read the following:
The phrase itself is thus taken by many to be synonymous with divinity
Why is this marked with a citation tag? I'm removing it; if you want a source (I don't know how to do the little source tag that redirects to the bottom of the page) check the
Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 8 section 2 — it's a document to which many millions have and do adhere.
Nyttend
13:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
YHWH šuā actually stands for Indoeuropean Dīāvā sūnah 'the son of the god', cf. Skr dyāvah 'god', Lith. sūnus 'son'. Roberts7 18:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The following section was formerly in the main article, however, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. At the very least it is complete WP:OR and does not conform to WP:NPOV. אמר Steve Caruso 18:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The usage of the title "God" is given to the Lord Jesus only one time, at that occurs at the Prologue of the Gospel of John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the) God, and the Word was (a) God."
The only other place in the Bible where Jesus is called "God" in the book of Isaiah.
"And his name will be Wondeful Counsellor, Everlasting Father, Mighty God, Prince of Peace."
Many verses in John, the epistles, and Revelation imply support for the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God and the closely related concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John in particular supports Jesus' divinity. This is a partial list of supporting Bible verses:
* John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."[16]The Bible says "God the One and Only" in NIV. * John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it." * John 8:23–24: "But he continued,'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.'" * John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"[17] * John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." * John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." * John 12:41: "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him."—As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:10 refers to Jesus. * John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" * Philippians 2:5–8: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" * Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" * Titus 2:13: "while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." * 1 Timothy 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." * Hebrews 1:8: "But about the Son he [God] says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." * 1 John 5:20: "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." * Revelation 1:17–18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." This is seen as significant when viewed with Isaiah 44:6: "This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
The Bible also refers to Jesus as a man, which is in line with the Trinitarian concept that Jesus was fully human as well as fully divine which is expressed through the theological concept of kenosis.
Light of the World (Jesus) redirects here, but this article doesn't have anything about this topic. -- 62.214.229.215 ( talk) 19:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
A friend of mine once said that in Jesus' day he would have been known (full name) as Yeshua bin Joseph ha Dovidl (spelling is, I think, as how he had it), literally, "Jesus (/Joshua), son of Joseph, of the house of David". Would that form of name construct have been used in Jesus' day, or would just the simple name of "Yeshua" (one name only) be more plausible? (I'm thinking having another name as a distinguishing mark isn't all that uncommon, for some of Jesus' contemporaries were "James, the son of Zebedee" (which leads me to believe that the "son of Zebedee" (bin Zebedee?) was used to distinguish from the other Jameses around at the time) and "Judas Iscariot" - seeing as how "Judas" was/is a common name of Jews at the time, a further identification makes sense, but, as far as I know, Jesus/Joshua was common too, which makes sense that the prophet from Nazareth would have a "more full" name (if you want, a "last name") than just "Jesus". Is Yeshua bin Joseph ha Dovidl likely? -- Canuckguy ( talk) 13:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed this section:
Its sources are articles written by religious groups that make pretty weak linguistic claims and present no proof. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 11:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I came to this page after noticing that Template:Jesus has ישוע in its header image. ישוע is the unvocalized Hebrew spelling of Yeshua. As far as i know, it is not certain that Yeshua was indeed Jesus' Hebrew name. It may also have been Yeshu (ישו), Yehoshua (יהושוע or יהושע) or maybe something else entirely.
The "Personal name" section here does nothing to establish with any certainty that Yeshua was indeed his name. It simply describes the names Yehoshua and Yeshua and the possible linguistic relation between them. This information is reasonable and well-referenced, but it does not necessarily relate to the Jesus of New Testament.
The section should say clearly that the true name is not known - correct me if i'm wrong.
And Hebrew spelling ישוע should be removed from Template:Jesus. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 11:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I've been noticing that several edits to this page have been made lately, the vast majority of them being by an unregistered user with the IP address 66.93.140.42 and all of them (as far as I can see) being made as additions under the "Other titles in the New Testament" heading. Currently there are 89 subheadings. At what point do we draw the line? It almost seems as if we keep going, we're going to end up quoting the entire New Testament. Additionally, the user making additions seems to have a kind of evangelical agenda as seen by the following specific edits. [2] [3] [4] [5] So what do others think? Is this informative or just evangelism? Euphgeek ( talk) 19:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I've removed what seem to me to be a few instances of evangelism - some from the IP 66.93.140.42 mentioned just above. They seem to be stating some Christian beliefs as fact, rather than from an NPOV. I might have misunderstood though, and they might not have been meant like that, so I'll hold off for a while and see what others think. Oscroft ( talk) 20:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, some of it seems quite blatant - removed a bit more today. Oscroft ( talk) 06:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Neutral Point of Views being erased
Almost ALL the root definitions of words (greek/latin/hebrew word origins) have been removed. These were neutral. Also, many links which were neutral have been removed, but the ones that breed skepticism against Christian beliefs have remained. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 02:05, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I and not sure this article represents a neutral point of view. It seems like the entire article is spent trying to provide evidence against the possibility that Jesus considered himself divine. Certainly this is one possibility, but it seems like the article takes too strong of a position. I find it a little humorous that one subsection explains why in the phrase "my lord and my God," "lord" does not necessarily mean "God," but does not attempt to explain why "God" does not necessarily mean "God." Also, this article seems very highly dependent on the scholar Geza Vermez. Is there any way the sources could be diversified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.254.20 ( talk) 06:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The page excludes the important title "Word of God." -- Ephilei ( talk) 23:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The article should maybe point out that the Old Testament has been a source of christology just as well. There is a notable work on the subject by Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg. ADM ( talk) 20:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The introduction to this page says that christology is the study of the names. This seems to be false on its face, since all the theology I've studied purporting to be christological has dealt with the nature of Christ rather than names. If the study of the names is a branch of christology, though--which is absolutely plausible--shouldn't the linked christology page have some material on that? In any event, clarification is probably in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.162.115 ( talk) 07:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Some names and titles are hotly contested; these should be grouped into a Disputed section to avoid cluttering the article with contention. I can do that soon. Incidentally, a response regarding an existing thread is usually best kept within that thread and section rather than as a new section with a new title. -- AuthorityTam ( talk) 16:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I can actually see sense in either keeping the article to titles of Jesus in the NT, or extending it to be those titles, with discussion of titles which are contentious between religious traditions that are based on the NT.
One way to solve the issue is to do both things: we have a WP:List of titles sourced on the many books that do list Jesus' titles from the NT; AND we have an article, like the current one, which discusses differences of opinion regarding how the titles are to be interpreted, or whether the NT actually offers them.
Alternatively, it might be good to admit that the List article would be very long, and might not be a good idea. Instead, we should just have an article simply called
One problem with this article, as it currently stands, is that it tries to be a list. I'd suggest one way forward would be to create the list article, with information already in this article. Then remove list items here that have no debate. This article can then develop by using reliable sources which discuss the names and titles of Jesus. And those reliable sources should include all points of view, not just the mainstream Christian point of view. Alastair Haines ( talk) 06:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone REMOVED the title "TRUE GOD", along with it's newly cited encyclopedia/biblical references. The reference requirement was met. Please reinstate the title "TRUE GOD".
The references/sources that wikipedia requires were at the ORIGINAL web links. But these links were changed to inferior links. Before these changes, ALL links contained verifiable references. Now, most of the names/titles are tagged because these references/sources are lacking. Changing the web links back will not only solve the problem of verifiable sources, it will also answer questions that people now complain about "not understanding", or "not making sense", etc. Changing back to the original web links may also hold answers to the "disputed titles" debate below. Most of the current problems have arisen because changes were made to the content (erasing relevant information) and/or changing the external links. With these changes, it is now fairly easy to erase the names/titles of Jesus because the resourced links--with references/resources/explanations all on one page--are gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 06:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I found this seller statement,
The title Christ occurs in the Hebrew Bible...
The word "Christ" is English and it would never be found in a Hebrew language Bible! Now if they're referring to the Christian reference Old Testament and meaning Messiah or something else...maybe...arge! Basileias ( talk) 01:19, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
some 50 or more tags have been placed to every title entry stating there's no reference nor source to such title when a portion of biblical scripture is quoted and the reference for that portion of scripture is provided... then there are the references, and the article's title reads: Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament then New testament is source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.119.128 ( talk) 00:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
A Table summarized the names of Jesus (Messiah, Jehovah, Yeshua, etc.) by languages: Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English. It presented a clear overview of how Jesus' name changed with time, and how its original meaning is lost in Greek, Latin, and English. It was a great help in understanding how the many "different names" of Jesus have one origin, and are but one name. Why was this table--with its reliable references--deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 02:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Please add - 1. Wonderful, 2. Counselor, 3. The Mighty God, 4. The everlasting Father and 5. The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
trichagc June 23, 2009
The author of one website has a Doctors Degree in Theology (D.D.). The other website uses authentic Hebrew dictionaries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 02:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
The title "Yeshua" is reinstated per the above discussion: (1) since both references are reliable and reputable, and (2) since the claims are not "pretty weak linguistic claims" as first thought, and (3) since no other objections to these impeccable credentials are given. It is important to retain the title Yeshua because newer Bible translations are beginning to use this name "Yeshua" (or other Aramaic-Hebrew spellings of this name) in place of the name "Jesus". The meaning of Messiah and God (YHWH) is clear with the original Aramaic-Hebrew name "Yeshua"; whereas, the meaning of Messiah is lost with the English name "Jesus". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.170.44.194 ( talk) 06:17, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is this title and all my edits (added references) ERASED AGAIN? We have discussed that the two references are reliable, and not "weak linguistic claims". Let me reiterate--some English Bibles only use Yeshua (or spelling variations of this name) (The name Jesus is not used.) Thus, "Yeshua | Yashua" deserves its own title heading. It is the name Jesus' mom gave Him.
Below is the title to reinstate.
Some Bibles Translations use Jesus' original name "Yeshua". The table below shows how Jesus' name "Yeshua" (from root "YHWH + yasha") have changed in its spelling. [1]
Aramaic | Hebrew | Greek, Latin | English | |
---|---|---|---|---|
Name | Y'shua, Yeshua [2] | YHWH + yasha (root) `Yehoshua, [3] Yahushua [4] and their shortened forms: Y'shua, [5] Yeshua, [6], Yahshua (=Jeshua=Joshua), [7] Yashua [8]. | Iesous(Greek) Iēsus, Iesu (Latin) |
Jesus [9] |
Meaning | "YAH saves", "YAH is salvation". (Same meaning as in Hebrew. Aramaic (Syriac) is thought to be Jesus' spoken language. [10]) | "God is salvation". Joshua = "Yahweh is salvation". [11] ["Jehovah is salvation" is the same as "YHWH is salvation". The word "Jehovah" is "YHWH", with vowels added.] [12] | "Iesous" and "Iesus" were translated by sound. The original meaning is lost and corrupted in both Greek and Latin. [13] | "Jesus" was re-translated from Latin. The prophetic and sanctified meaning of "YHWH" (God) is lost in English. |
Yeshua is the original Aramaic (or late Hebrew) name for Jesus-—a contraction of yehÖshÙa (Joshua), "help of Jehovah" + yÀh, "Jehovah" + hÖshïa, "to help."
[7] In Hebrew, YESHUA is from the Hebrew YESHA—Yud Shin Ayin—meaning "Help," "Salvation," "Deliverance."
[14]
[15] "Yeshua (Jesus) is YHVH in the flesh."
[16] Another name for Jesus, derived from
YHWH, may be spelled:
Yahshua, which means "Yahweh is salvation," or "God is salvation". --"Jesus is salvation" for all true followers because he took the punishment for man's sins on the cross, enabling the
forgiveness of sins, the
empowerment of the Holy Spirit to overcome evil, and the
gift of eternal life in heaven ("saved" from hell").
[17]
Please remove or correct this personal opinion. The trinity doctrine is not related to this article and is a matter of doctrinal argument.
Trinity is not found anywhere in the scriptures.
There is no God the Father, God the Word and God the Holy Spirit. It is the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. It is a misquote.
The fact is that this verse says that they are one and not three, not three in one.
Word
1 John 5:7 says there are three persons (not one person) in the Godhead—also called “Trinity”—(1) God, the Father; (2) God, the Word (Jesus); and (3) God, the Holy Spirit. John writes: ‘‘“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”‘‘
trichagc June 23, 2009
There are at least three types of disputes.
" Creator" and " Holy One" don't cite a single translation with the terms "Creator" or "Holy One"; the section " Christ Crucified" insufficiently demonstrates that 1 Cor 1:23 contains more than a simple noun (Christ) and verb (crucified) rather than a formal title.
-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 19:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
If you note below, the subject of Disputed Items often pertains to the deity of Jesus--Jesus is God. Also, the most controversy and debate under the "Names and Titles of Jesus" also pertain to the deity of Jesus, or as Lord/God/Saviour of man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.50.144 ( talk) 19:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I looked a few of these up and Jude 1:4 doesn't make any sense quoting it in a reference to deity for Jesus. I also wasn't able to quickly find any quality sources that claim that. I'm fine with it and I think we can remove Jude 1:4 from the article. Basileias ( talk) 00:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
"Christ Crucified" isn't any kind of title that I can tell. That can probably be removed also. Basileias ( talk) 00:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the context, "Lord is Lord of all" doesn't appear to be a title. Basileias ( talk) 01:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
This one differs depending on the translation used. There is a title but this could use some outside sources. I'm not sure if it refers to "God the Father" because I didn't see that wording in the translations I looked in. Basileias ( talk) 01:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
See
Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament#True God and
User talk:Alastair Haines#True God and 1 John 5:20.
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
18:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have added the title "conquerer of the world" to Lord Jesus Christ. Please hold it. I am a good christian and will read bible that is with me and update it better. If you have any question please email I will answer you immediatly. |
Last edited at 19:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 21:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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