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Quote:
It should be clarified that there is no "Hebrew text" of the NT except as a translation. I assume that this refers to the underlying Hebrew text of quotations used in the New Testament. How can it follow that [s]cholars have concluded that these abbreviations were not part of the autographs and thus were added some time later brings us to the conclusion that some scholars have concluded that YHWH did indeed occur in the NT? These two thoughts should not be connected with "thus," but perhaps with "furthermore." There are parts of the introduction that do not seem to follow logically, so it needs to be clarified or reworked. Yonah mishael 14:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Quote: "... since it is well established that the New Testament quotes the Septuagint extensively (and apparently exclusively), the other texts may not be relevant to the text of the New Testament..."
The text above is found in the conclusion of the article as it currently stands. This is simply a fabrication. Paul is (supposed to be) the author of some 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament (NT), yet he almost never quotes from any extant copy of the Septuagint. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes extensive use of the Septuagint, as do some of the Gospel writers. It is demonstrated in the
Greek-English New Testament which verses are drawn from the Septuagint. This is done by the use of a symbol like this
in the margin alongside the verse reference.
In Paul's letters, one never find this symbol in the margins, because his quotations are generally from his own translation of the Hebrew text, or at least this is the supposition. This quote should definitely be changed in the text of the article. It is unsupported.
- Yonah mishael 18:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I realize and have seen the evidence for the Tetragrammaton appearing in older copies of a Greek recension of the Jewish Bible (many say it was absolutely the Septuagint, but I have not looked at it closely enough to verify this). My question is simple: There are thousands and thousands of copies and fragments of the New Testament text, dating back to the middle of the Second Century. Among any of these fragments, is there even ONE instance of יהוה appearing in the Phoenician/Paleo-Hebrew or Aramaic square script? I have not seen any evidence that the Name was removed from the text so much as that it is simply being eisegeted back into it by those who want to BELIEVE that it was written thus. Is there any evidence or solely speculation? Yonah mishael 18:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
We know that Koine Greek is a very case-sensitive language. Many things that we express in English (possession, instrumentality, direct address, and many other oblique functions) are expressed in Greek by various case endings. For example:
Case | Form | Pronunciation | Meaning | Function |
Nominative | θεός | thĕ-ŎS | god | subject, predicate nominative |
Genitive | θεοῦ | thĕ-OO | of god, with god | possession, partivitity, substance |
Dative | θεῷ | thĕ-Ō | to god, by god | indirect object, instrumentality, duration (time) |
Accusative | θεόν | thĕ-ŎN | god | direct object |
It does get a bit more complicated than this, but here are the basics of a noun case paradigm. So, my question is: How would it be even possible to express this quality in a word written in foreign characters? In other words, while ὁ νόμος τοῦ κυρίου means "the law of the Lord," how do we express "the Law of יהוה" (i.e., תורת יהוה) without these case endings? Do we simply write ὁ νόμος τοῦ יהוה with the article? What do we find in the fragmentary portions with regard to this? This is important as regards the functionality of יהוה in Greek texts, and the complexity of dealing with the Greek case system may have contributed to the removal of the foreign characters from the text of the LXX -- especially as the Hellenized Jews and the early Christians grew further and further withdrawn from the language of the Jewish Bible. This is highly explicable in light of the Temple's destruction in 70 CE. -
Yonah mishael
19:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently, a religious sect called The Jehovah's Witnesses is attempting to hijack parts of Wikipedia by using certain articles as free bandwidth. Any consensus from the Wikipedian community is ignored and eliminated to express its and only its views.
To use JW dogma to add, change, alter, delete, censor, obfuscate, or reinterpret scholarly consensus each violates Wikipedia's express policy: WP:WORLD, WP:OWN, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, et al...
Materials published by the JW Vatican (the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society), and JW websites, forums, tracts, etc may be used to describe JW dogma where relevant only.
For example, If JWs wish to express their own beliefs, they are welcome to start a new article, such as "Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines in regard to Jehovah and the New Testament." That would be fair use of free bandwidth. -
Cestus
Cd
01:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply put: YHWH/Jehovah does not occur in the original New Testament. Its insertion into versions in modern languages is a novelty. Asserting that this novelty is representative of the original is a deception.
Wikipedia policy is explicit that articles must follow scholarly convention and scholarly consensus. One cannot make an article on Wikipedia conform to the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor may one compel editors to conform their edits to any religion whatsoever.
Convention and the scholarly consensus are quite clear in regard to the use of the word "Jehovah" and official statements from official sites of the Jehovah's Witnesses differ markedly. This version of this article here is sourced and cited. It also incorporates the contributions of numerous editors, including that of Jehovah's Witnesses where they may be truthful.
Each Jehovah's Witness is certainly welcome to his own point of view. The Jehovah's Witnesses have their own websites and there is even a section in this article allowing for discussion of these views. The overwhelming majority of editors do not follow that religion, but the community has been generous and even indulgent in incorporating these sectarian views in the article.
Thus, in the interests of Policies and Guidelines particularly Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly urged to cease conforming articles against scholarly convention and consensus. More importantly, kindly cease from demanding that editors follow sectarian religious doctrine. Editors take offense at such tactics and are unlikely to comply.
We consider it rude and it reflects badly on Jehovah's Witnesses.
There are ample websites already owned by Jehovah's Witnesses for followers to contribute to. All are welcome to contribute here inasmuch as each follows the rules. -
C.
dentata
06:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is inaccurate. For example, the English version of a Italian article published on the catholic magazine, edited from Dehonian friars, "Rivista Biblica", year XLV, n. 2, April-June 1997, p. 183-186. Bologna, Italy says: "... recent discoveries have shown that the practice of substituted in the LXX YHWH with KYRIOS started in a much later period in comparison with the beginning of that version.[date? context?] As a matter of fact, the older copies of the LXX keep the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. citation needed Girolamo, the translator of the Latin Vulgate citation needed confirms this fact. In the prologue of the books of Samuel and Kings he wrote: "In certain Greek volumes we still find the Tetragrammaton of God's name expressed in ancient characters". citation needed And in a letter citation needed written in Rome in the year 384 it says: "God's name is made up of four letters; it was thought ineffable, and it is written with these letters: iod, he, vau, he (YHWH). But some have not been able to decipher it because of the resemblance of the Greek letters and when they found it in Greek books they usually read it PIPI (pipi)". S. Girolamo, Le Lettere, Rome, 1961, vol.1, pp.237, 238; compare J.P.Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol.22, coll.429, 430."
We can conclude that the article is biased, which also the writer's nick suggests. ( Anonymous 2005-10-12 07:01:59)
The quote above, referencing the LXX, is relevant in that it refers to the nominal source for the quotations from the OT. It is manifestly the basic issue here - what did the writers of the NT quote when citing references from the OT? If the Masoretic / Hebrew text, then the quote contained the Tetragram. If the Septuagint, then, as the article asserts, they would also have quoted from a reference bearing the Tetragram and, reasonably, it would have been in the NT. (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 18:26:07 )
A visit to http://www.e-sword.net will furnish one with the opportunity to verify the accuracy of quotations shown from translations numbered as 4 & 5 above; one will have to download e-sword, download the bibles and then install all files, including fonts unique to the bible.
Those listed as #1, 2, 9 & 11 have urls attached to the citation and can be easily verified.
The Hutter referred to is a well-respected translation and somewhat of a unique bible; copies are called 'Hutters' reasonbly enough and are prized. Hutter himself founded the movement that is still in existence today and bears his name. For information about him from a modern day perspective, visit this site: http://www.hutterites.org/hutter.htm (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 01:46:09 )
Further, note that assertion made regarding '10,000s of translations.' If that is meant to be a truthful statement and not hyperbole, then there must be at least 20,000 translations of the NT - a very fanciful number and one that needs some source to be seen as believable.
Here is the list which he asserts is irrelevant; whether it is relevant or not should be left to the reader to judge; if the reader adjudges the translations shown as irrelevant, then so be it. How though can they do so if the list is suppressed? Censorship is not reason.
1. The Sacred Name King James Version
[2];
2. The Scriptures [3];
3. Moffat’s translation of the Bible in Tswana [the first complete Bible to be printed in Africa, in 1872];
4. The Chinese Union Version, Simplified [4]uses 耶和华 [the chinese equivalent of Jehovah] in Revelation 19.1;
5. The Chinese Union Version, Traditional [ibid.];
6. The Chinese Union Version, GB;
7. The Malagasy Bible, Protestant Version, uses Jehovah in the NT;
8. The Malagasy Bible, Catholic version, uses IAVEH at Matt 4.7 & 10;
9. The Restored Name King James Version [5] uses the Tetragrammaton itself in the text of the NT and uses YAH for the Hebrew parse of the Tetragrammaton rendered JAH by the KJ and ASV;
10. The Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages by Elias Hutter, 1599, uses the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew translation of the NT;
11. The Hebraic Roots Version (NT only) [6] uses YHWH.
Worse, personally attacking another is a formal error in logic - demonstrating the weakness of the arguments advanced.
Regarding the citations of LXX in papyrus, note what Professor George Howard stated: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.” (Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978, page 14)
Further, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: "Recently discovered texts doubt the idea that the translators of the LXX have rendered the Tetragrammaton JHWH with KYRIOS. The most ancient mss (manuscripts) of the LXX today available have the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew letters in the Greek text. This was custom preserved by the later Hebrew translator of the Old Testament in the first centuries (after Christ)". Vol.2, pag.512 citation needed
With respect to the Dead Sea scrolls, referred to in the main article, please go to the following site and note the image therein of a portion of the Psalms wherein the tetragrammaton is shown in older phoenician letters: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/full-images/psalm-b.gif
The following fragments are sometimes mistaken for fragments from the Septuagint. However, in ancient times, there were at least seven versions of the OT in Greek, none of which was the Septuagint (and especially not the New Testament) and none of which was officially used in the Church:
Here's one page talking about all three mentioned scriptures, and some others: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html. It took me about two seconds to find this. Surely I'm not the only one that knows how to use search engines here. You can find enough to read until the cows come home. Tommstein 08:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I have comments to this statement: "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7). Here as elsewhere, he quotes from the Greek Septuagint." 1: To say that Jesus by this statement indicated that he himself was God/YHWH, is an interpretation. I believe one must see this in context, and take into account verse 6, where the Devil says, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Who is being tempted here? Surely, Jesus would actually be the one putting his Father to the test by casting himself off the mount. My conclusion on this is: Mt 4:7 is here being interpreted; and interpretations should be left to the reader! 2: It is not obvious that Jesus himself quoted the Greek Septuagint; but the writer of Matthew's Gospel quoted it, later writing what had happened! Jesus spoke and read Hebrew/Aramaic, and had access to the Hebrew Scriptures in its original letter. -Sommer.
What do this box in this article? This article is not about any particular god, it is an essay about the use of a name in the Bible. I think this box do not belong to this article. Summer Song 18:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What is your deal with Jehovah's Witnesses? You gave me the same nonsense on the Jehovah article with no legitimate basis for your reverts/edits. I'm trying to make this article better. I've sourced my facts, removed unsourced information that contradicts those facts, I've removed POV and redundancy and changed the reference system. My focus is accuracy first, we can work on the rather convoluted prose next. If there is conflicting sourced information then by all means present it, but the fact stands the previous version of the article was built around the incorrect (and unsourced) assertion that Septuagints didn't contain the divine name. I have provided indesputable evidence to the contrary. The most well preserved, oldest (100 B.C!) GREEK Septuagint of the book of Deuteronomy contains 49 identifiable instances of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. After we get the facts straight we can hammer out the prose, either way: 1 - Please do not revert sourced information per WP:VERIFY without VERY good reason, 2 - A revert war would just move this article backwards, bring your information to the table, we'll sort it out and make a good, well referenced article. Duffer 07:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is convoluted, inaccurate, and very redundant. How many times does the article need to say: "The Septuagint does not contain forms of the word YHWH.." regardless of the fact that this assertion is wrong, and I have proven that, the article makes this particular assertion (or variations of) SEVEN times! At least one of the sentences I changed contains completely unsalvagable grammar, there's a myriad of asserted (unsourced) conclusions ("diseptive" "various assumptions" (which coincidentally are provable facts) "Indeed", bad faith "See Also" summaries and an irrelavant catagory "Forgery"; the "Main Article" isn't even right. I'm damned tired of being right yet get constantly battled over my edits simply because I'm a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The title "Jehovah in the New Testament" implies that Jehovah is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, which is by no means the case. I have therefore redirected the article to the more neutral title Tetragrammaton in the New Testament. Yahnatan 00:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The following statement is misleading POV:
"Yah" is not YHWH, and "Alleluia" as it is spelled in Greek does not contain "Yah." (It is pronounced "A-leh-lu-ee-a.")
"Jesus" is not YHWH and is not spelled "Yahsus" or "YHWHsus".
It is important we follow Wikipedia's rules to follow scholarly consensus.
The addition is not misleading. It is a fact that Yah is an abbrevation for the divine name (spell it how you wish). It is also true that Jesus' name means "Jehovah helps" (saves). You can check a dictionary for that information.
Who has written these comments? PUT SIGNATURES ON YOUR COMMENTS, for crying out loud!
ἁλληλυϊά (hallelujah, Heb. הַלְּלוּ־יָהּ) is one of a handful of words in the NT transliterated from Hebrew. Other examples are ἀμήν (amen, Heb. אָמֵן) and ὡσαννά (hosannah, Heb. הוֹשִׁיעַ נָא). The fact that this form (ἁλληλυϊά), a frozen form, contains the Greek transliteration of יה (Yah) indicates nothing about the intent of the author to include any form of God's name in his text. This was simply another frozen form like those above. Jewish audiences would understand them because they were pulled into the Hellenized Jewish Koine from their experience in dealing with the Hebrew language. This is very similar to the now common English expression "mazel tov" which has been pulled from the Hebrew and Yiddish מזל טוב to mean "congratulations." It is simply a frozen expression, and the speaker who uses it does not think about the roots of the words any more than the Jewish speaker of Koine in the first century would have thought about the roots of words like amen and hosanna. The discussion about Jesus' name meaning "YHWH saves" or at all containing portions of the Tetragrammaton is best saved for another time and place. (However, in passing, let me challenge you to find any form of the Tetragrammaton in letters of Ἰησοῦς. Is ΙΗ [iota eta] a form of God's name? I don't think so.) -- Yonah mishael 19:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I am adding some info to a subpage for use in writing the article. Talk:Tetragrammaton in the New Testament/source
Hi, I am trying to get an article started about Jehovah God and not have searches of the name Jehovah directed to a mere mention of the name within the Tetragrammaton article. Please join this discussion Ice9Tea 16:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The following text has been removed - "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the Tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7)."
I find it extremely hard to accept that Jesus was referring to himself in Matthew 4:7, a quick reference to any translation of Matthew 4:4-7 shows that you can only conclude that Jesus is refering to himself if you are a trinitarian.
(KJV) 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Trinitarians may well happily argue that Jesus is god but for non-trinitarians the passage explicitly refers to two people - the Son of God and God, therefore to avoid theological debate within this article I have removed the passage.
This article is not about the Trinity. This article is not about the divinity of Christ. There are other places to deal with those subjects... SV ( talk) 14:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The article should mention that when the Tetragrammaton was written in Hebrew-Aramaic letters in Greek mansucripts (much more often occult/magical scrolls, and not Biblical texts, by the way), then the letters Yod-He-Waw-He written right to left were sometimes interpreted as Greek Pi-Iota-Pi-Iota ΠΙΠΙ written left-to-right. AnonMoos ( talk) 15:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It is known that versions of the Greek Septuagint Old Testament available in the first century did contain the Hebrew Tetragrammaton within the Greek text. It is therefore plausible that early versions of the New Testament (or rather, the separate writings, at least some of which were likely first written in Hebrew or Aramaic, that were eventually compiled into what became known as the NT) may also have contained it, particularly where the NT quotes the OT. The concern here is not whether the extant versions of the NT contain the Tetragrammaton, but whether the issue is sufficiently notable to warrant its own article. If the issue is notable enough, the article should simply present the views of the notable proponents, rather than asserting that the original NT manuscripts (which are not available for any absolute determination) did or did not ever contain the Tetragrammaton; the article could probably also do with a name change. If the issue constitutes undue weight, then the most important points should be merged to Tetragrammaton, and this article should be deleted.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 09:37, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
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At some point it'll be worth looking at these. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I was asked to give a 3rd opinion. First point: I do not know this topic. Second point: This is a fundamental problem in Wikipedia, namely that when a topic is less than obvious, it is hard to get further opinions. But, banking on my lack of familiarity with the topic, I may actually learn something, and also I do not have an opinion on it yet. But I do know a few things about the NT - although not this specific topic.
So can you guys help me on this please: Is this a representative search? What I would do is not rely on books/authors I do not know, but see what the "best known" NT texts say about this. And I have come to know most of the major NT texts by now. History2007 ( talk) 12:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
And hence this page is full of POV. Shouldn't really exist, seeing as there is no Tetragrammaton in the NT. In ictu oculi ( talk) 12:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Jeffro77 I have reverted your edits as they are again (a) placing a WP:fringe view, some other issues, like (b) again making it appear as if Howard and Howard/Anchor are 2 sources. I don't think you are suggesting the article should be renamed. I am suggesting it be renamed as the title is unfactual, per Women presidents of America, Glaciers in Egypt, Mentions of helicopters in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and so on. I've moved the Septuagint material to Septuagint manuscripts per title of both articles. In ictu oculi ( talk) 19:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Jeffro77 I already did, before I saw this. But I'd hope that any Third Opinion who comes along will adjudge that having an article about something which does not exist is more than a little problematic. You wrote above: >It is therefore plausible that early versions of the New Testament (or rather, the separate writings, at least some of which were likely first written in Hebrew or Aramaic, that were eventually compiled into what became known as the NT) may also have contained it< ....to say something is "plausible" on the basis of that sort of argument on a Talk page is easy enough, but for a Wikipedia article the copy requires sources. It would seem that scholarship does not consider either of those two theories plausible, otherwise there would be scholarly sources at least saying that either of the two theories was plausible.
_______ Tetragrammaton in the New Testament The Tetragrammaton does not occur in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, but is found in some English and many Hebrew translations. _______ i.e. that isn't POV, that's simply undoing the impression given by a potentially misleading article title. Wheras if we present the view that there might have been/plausible/possible lost NT mss, that isn't a sourceable fact, can only possibly be an opinion. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I am not even sure why there is a big deal here. I think it is obvious that not all NT texts include the Tetragrammaton - that needs no debate. So it appears in a small percentage of NT texts - why is that notable enough to have an article? Unless there is a specific JW angle involved (and I do not think a JW angle should drive NT topics) this is not a notable issue. The Women Presidents of the US analogy is only about 80% applicable I guess, given that it does appear in a very small percentage of NT texts. The title is, of course, a total misnomer.
Two other issues I think are important:
I am not even sure why this needs an article at all. It seems like a short paragraph or two on it in the Tetragrammaton article should be enough. I am not sure why there is a debate and why there needs to be an article on this minor topic. History2007 ( talk) 08:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The article says near the beginning, "Older Jewish manuscripts of the Septuagint often had the letters YHWH or a space within the Greek text, one example being the Dead Sea Scrolls." This sentence has no footnote. It implies that there are a plurality of older Jewish manuscripts of the LXX. The word "Jewish" suggests that there are older and newer Jewish LXX mss. "Older" is a weasel word. A date should be used instead of "older." Is there really proof that mss often had YHWH or a space? Which is it? YHWH or is it space? The statement is vague. If there really is proof of this, it should read something like, "There are 10 different mss extant in fragment form dating from 300 B.C. to 100 B.C. 4 of them have spaces for the Tetragrammaton and 3 have YHWH in Hebrew letters for the Tetragrammaton. 3 of them use kyrios." The Dead Sea Scrolls is not an older Jewish manuscript of the LXX. Does the author mean something like: "Among the DSS, there is one fragment of a manuscript, numbered by Allegro as #3.14159, which contains 2 instances of the Tetrgrammaton inserted in Hebrew in this otherwise Greek fragment." I am unaware of any text of the LXX in the DSS, though there may be fragments. If one finds some part of the Tanach in Greek among the DSS, how does one know that is the LXX? IMHO that sentence should be deleted or revised drastically. ( EnochBethany ( talk) 03:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC))
Since the Tetragrammaton does not appear in the NT, this article would be better titled: Translation of the Tetragrammaton in the NT or Occurrences of Kyrios for the Tetragrammaton in the NT. The NT does refer to or quote the OT where the OT has the tetragrammaton; so far as I know, always using kyrios for the Tetragrammaton. Most famously Rom 10:13 refers to the Lord Jesus as kyrios, where the quotation is from Joel, which in fact has the tetragrammaton: "For whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [YHWH] shall be saved." Even an objective list of those instances would be valuable information. ( EnochBethany ( talk) 03:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC))
Peter also quotes Joel 2:32 on the day of Pentecost (when the Holy Spirit was first poured out to the New Testament church) in Acts 2:21 ( http://biblehub.com/text/acts/2-21.htm), and Peter sites that he is quoting Joel. I do not believe that Peter misquoted scripture (in other words, diminished from God's word (Deuteronomy 4:2 [10], Jeremiah 26:1-2 [11]). Nor do I believe that Paul diminished from God's word when he quoted Joel 2:32 ( http://biblehub.com/text/joel/2-32.htm). And I don't think that the Lord Y'shua misquoted scripture when he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (Deuteronomy 6:4 [12], Deuteronomy 6:5 [13], Matthew 22:37 [14], Mark 12:29 [15], and Luke 10:27 [16]). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giddalti ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of this article, it says, "The Tetragrammaton does not occur in 'any extant' in Greek manuscripts of the New Testament." This is not a true statement. In Revelation 19:1, 3, 4 and 6, the term "Alleluia" is used. "Alleluia" is an English transliteration of a Greek transliteration for the Hebrew phrase, "Hallu Yah!" -- a phrase that David often used in Psalms (Psalm 150 is one example [17]). It's just that we don't see this phrase in most English Bibles. It is often replaced in English with this phrase, "Praise ye the LORD." The name "Yah" is the shortened (sometimes called the "poetic") name of Yahweh. So, Yahweh does occur in "some extant" the New Testament in the form of Yah. This is a fact that may be researched through the study of Greek and Hebrew transcripts of scripture. Yahweh bless all who seek him through his son, Y'shua! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giddalti ( talk • contribs) 13:19, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
You are correct -- I was confusing "extant" with "extent" (I thought it was spelled wrong). However, I know exactly who is being praised in Revelation 19 -- Yahweh (יהוה), whom David also praised with the phrase "Hallu Yah!" Revelation 19 is the one place in the New Testament that translators (scribes) missed removing a reference to Yahweh's name, or if you prefer, a reference to "Yahweh."— Preceding unsigned comment added by Giddalti ( talk • contribs)
Giddalti -- a lot of Hebrew names contain cut-down or abbreviated forms of the Tetragrammaton, as does Halleluia, but the full four-letter form of the Tetragrammaton standing by itself was not commonly pronounced out loud in New Testament times (except by shady occultists practicing magical rituals, or supposedly once a year by the Jewish High Priest in the Holy of Holies of the Jerusalem temple), and is not found in any Greek New Testament manuscript. AnonMoos ( talk) 12:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
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Quote:
It should be clarified that there is no "Hebrew text" of the NT except as a translation. I assume that this refers to the underlying Hebrew text of quotations used in the New Testament. How can it follow that [s]cholars have concluded that these abbreviations were not part of the autographs and thus were added some time later brings us to the conclusion that some scholars have concluded that YHWH did indeed occur in the NT? These two thoughts should not be connected with "thus," but perhaps with "furthermore." There are parts of the introduction that do not seem to follow logically, so it needs to be clarified or reworked. Yonah mishael 14:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Quote: "... since it is well established that the New Testament quotes the Septuagint extensively (and apparently exclusively), the other texts may not be relevant to the text of the New Testament..."
The text above is found in the conclusion of the article as it currently stands. This is simply a fabrication. Paul is (supposed to be) the author of some 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament (NT), yet he almost never quotes from any extant copy of the Septuagint. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes extensive use of the Septuagint, as do some of the Gospel writers. It is demonstrated in the
Greek-English New Testament which verses are drawn from the Septuagint. This is done by the use of a symbol like this
in the margin alongside the verse reference.
In Paul's letters, one never find this symbol in the margins, because his quotations are generally from his own translation of the Hebrew text, or at least this is the supposition. This quote should definitely be changed in the text of the article. It is unsupported.
- Yonah mishael 18:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I realize and have seen the evidence for the Tetragrammaton appearing in older copies of a Greek recension of the Jewish Bible (many say it was absolutely the Septuagint, but I have not looked at it closely enough to verify this). My question is simple: There are thousands and thousands of copies and fragments of the New Testament text, dating back to the middle of the Second Century. Among any of these fragments, is there even ONE instance of יהוה appearing in the Phoenician/Paleo-Hebrew or Aramaic square script? I have not seen any evidence that the Name was removed from the text so much as that it is simply being eisegeted back into it by those who want to BELIEVE that it was written thus. Is there any evidence or solely speculation? Yonah mishael 18:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
We know that Koine Greek is a very case-sensitive language. Many things that we express in English (possession, instrumentality, direct address, and many other oblique functions) are expressed in Greek by various case endings. For example:
Case | Form | Pronunciation | Meaning | Function |
Nominative | θεός | thĕ-ŎS | god | subject, predicate nominative |
Genitive | θεοῦ | thĕ-OO | of god, with god | possession, partivitity, substance |
Dative | θεῷ | thĕ-Ō | to god, by god | indirect object, instrumentality, duration (time) |
Accusative | θεόν | thĕ-ŎN | god | direct object |
It does get a bit more complicated than this, but here are the basics of a noun case paradigm. So, my question is: How would it be even possible to express this quality in a word written in foreign characters? In other words, while ὁ νόμος τοῦ κυρίου means "the law of the Lord," how do we express "the Law of יהוה" (i.e., תורת יהוה) without these case endings? Do we simply write ὁ νόμος τοῦ יהוה with the article? What do we find in the fragmentary portions with regard to this? This is important as regards the functionality of יהוה in Greek texts, and the complexity of dealing with the Greek case system may have contributed to the removal of the foreign characters from the text of the LXX -- especially as the Hellenized Jews and the early Christians grew further and further withdrawn from the language of the Jewish Bible. This is highly explicable in light of the Temple's destruction in 70 CE. -
Yonah mishael
19:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently, a religious sect called The Jehovah's Witnesses is attempting to hijack parts of Wikipedia by using certain articles as free bandwidth. Any consensus from the Wikipedian community is ignored and eliminated to express its and only its views.
To use JW dogma to add, change, alter, delete, censor, obfuscate, or reinterpret scholarly consensus each violates Wikipedia's express policy: WP:WORLD, WP:OWN, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, et al...
Materials published by the JW Vatican (the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society), and JW websites, forums, tracts, etc may be used to describe JW dogma where relevant only.
For example, If JWs wish to express their own beliefs, they are welcome to start a new article, such as "Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines in regard to Jehovah and the New Testament." That would be fair use of free bandwidth. -
Cestus
Cd
01:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply put: YHWH/Jehovah does not occur in the original New Testament. Its insertion into versions in modern languages is a novelty. Asserting that this novelty is representative of the original is a deception.
Wikipedia policy is explicit that articles must follow scholarly convention and scholarly consensus. One cannot make an article on Wikipedia conform to the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor may one compel editors to conform their edits to any religion whatsoever.
Convention and the scholarly consensus are quite clear in regard to the use of the word "Jehovah" and official statements from official sites of the Jehovah's Witnesses differ markedly. This version of this article here is sourced and cited. It also incorporates the contributions of numerous editors, including that of Jehovah's Witnesses where they may be truthful.
Each Jehovah's Witness is certainly welcome to his own point of view. The Jehovah's Witnesses have their own websites and there is even a section in this article allowing for discussion of these views. The overwhelming majority of editors do not follow that religion, but the community has been generous and even indulgent in incorporating these sectarian views in the article.
Thus, in the interests of Policies and Guidelines particularly Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly urged to cease conforming articles against scholarly convention and consensus. More importantly, kindly cease from demanding that editors follow sectarian religious doctrine. Editors take offense at such tactics and are unlikely to comply.
We consider it rude and it reflects badly on Jehovah's Witnesses.
There are ample websites already owned by Jehovah's Witnesses for followers to contribute to. All are welcome to contribute here inasmuch as each follows the rules. -
C.
dentata
06:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is inaccurate. For example, the English version of a Italian article published on the catholic magazine, edited from Dehonian friars, "Rivista Biblica", year XLV, n. 2, April-June 1997, p. 183-186. Bologna, Italy says: "... recent discoveries have shown that the practice of substituted in the LXX YHWH with KYRIOS started in a much later period in comparison with the beginning of that version.[date? context?] As a matter of fact, the older copies of the LXX keep the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. citation needed Girolamo, the translator of the Latin Vulgate citation needed confirms this fact. In the prologue of the books of Samuel and Kings he wrote: "In certain Greek volumes we still find the Tetragrammaton of God's name expressed in ancient characters". citation needed And in a letter citation needed written in Rome in the year 384 it says: "God's name is made up of four letters; it was thought ineffable, and it is written with these letters: iod, he, vau, he (YHWH). But some have not been able to decipher it because of the resemblance of the Greek letters and when they found it in Greek books they usually read it PIPI (pipi)". S. Girolamo, Le Lettere, Rome, 1961, vol.1, pp.237, 238; compare J.P.Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol.22, coll.429, 430."
We can conclude that the article is biased, which also the writer's nick suggests. ( Anonymous 2005-10-12 07:01:59)
The quote above, referencing the LXX, is relevant in that it refers to the nominal source for the quotations from the OT. It is manifestly the basic issue here - what did the writers of the NT quote when citing references from the OT? If the Masoretic / Hebrew text, then the quote contained the Tetragram. If the Septuagint, then, as the article asserts, they would also have quoted from a reference bearing the Tetragram and, reasonably, it would have been in the NT. (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 18:26:07 )
A visit to http://www.e-sword.net will furnish one with the opportunity to verify the accuracy of quotations shown from translations numbered as 4 & 5 above; one will have to download e-sword, download the bibles and then install all files, including fonts unique to the bible.
Those listed as #1, 2, 9 & 11 have urls attached to the citation and can be easily verified.
The Hutter referred to is a well-respected translation and somewhat of a unique bible; copies are called 'Hutters' reasonbly enough and are prized. Hutter himself founded the movement that is still in existence today and bears his name. For information about him from a modern day perspective, visit this site: http://www.hutterites.org/hutter.htm (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 01:46:09 )
Further, note that assertion made regarding '10,000s of translations.' If that is meant to be a truthful statement and not hyperbole, then there must be at least 20,000 translations of the NT - a very fanciful number and one that needs some source to be seen as believable.
Here is the list which he asserts is irrelevant; whether it is relevant or not should be left to the reader to judge; if the reader adjudges the translations shown as irrelevant, then so be it. How though can they do so if the list is suppressed? Censorship is not reason.
1. The Sacred Name King James Version
[2];
2. The Scriptures [3];
3. Moffat’s translation of the Bible in Tswana [the first complete Bible to be printed in Africa, in 1872];
4. The Chinese Union Version, Simplified [4]uses 耶和华 [the chinese equivalent of Jehovah] in Revelation 19.1;
5. The Chinese Union Version, Traditional [ibid.];
6. The Chinese Union Version, GB;
7. The Malagasy Bible, Protestant Version, uses Jehovah in the NT;
8. The Malagasy Bible, Catholic version, uses IAVEH at Matt 4.7 & 10;
9. The Restored Name King James Version [5] uses the Tetragrammaton itself in the text of the NT and uses YAH for the Hebrew parse of the Tetragrammaton rendered JAH by the KJ and ASV;
10. The Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages by Elias Hutter, 1599, uses the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew translation of the NT;
11. The Hebraic Roots Version (NT only) [6] uses YHWH.
Worse, personally attacking another is a formal error in logic - demonstrating the weakness of the arguments advanced.
Regarding the citations of LXX in papyrus, note what Professor George Howard stated: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.” (Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978, page 14)
Further, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: "Recently discovered texts doubt the idea that the translators of the LXX have rendered the Tetragrammaton JHWH with KYRIOS. The most ancient mss (manuscripts) of the LXX today available have the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew letters in the Greek text. This was custom preserved by the later Hebrew translator of the Old Testament in the first centuries (after Christ)". Vol.2, pag.512 citation needed
With respect to the Dead Sea scrolls, referred to in the main article, please go to the following site and note the image therein of a portion of the Psalms wherein the tetragrammaton is shown in older phoenician letters: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/full-images/psalm-b.gif
The following fragments are sometimes mistaken for fragments from the Septuagint. However, in ancient times, there were at least seven versions of the OT in Greek, none of which was the Septuagint (and especially not the New Testament) and none of which was officially used in the Church:
Here's one page talking about all three mentioned scriptures, and some others: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html. It took me about two seconds to find this. Surely I'm not the only one that knows how to use search engines here. You can find enough to read until the cows come home. Tommstein 08:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I have comments to this statement: "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7). Here as elsewhere, he quotes from the Greek Septuagint." 1: To say that Jesus by this statement indicated that he himself was God/YHWH, is an interpretation. I believe one must see this in context, and take into account verse 6, where the Devil says, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Who is being tempted here? Surely, Jesus would actually be the one putting his Father to the test by casting himself off the mount. My conclusion on this is: Mt 4:7 is here being interpreted; and interpretations should be left to the reader! 2: It is not obvious that Jesus himself quoted the Greek Septuagint; but the writer of Matthew's Gospel quoted it, later writing what had happened! Jesus spoke and read Hebrew/Aramaic, and had access to the Hebrew Scriptures in its original letter. -Sommer.
What do this box in this article? This article is not about any particular god, it is an essay about the use of a name in the Bible. I think this box do not belong to this article. Summer Song 18:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What is your deal with Jehovah's Witnesses? You gave me the same nonsense on the Jehovah article with no legitimate basis for your reverts/edits. I'm trying to make this article better. I've sourced my facts, removed unsourced information that contradicts those facts, I've removed POV and redundancy and changed the reference system. My focus is accuracy first, we can work on the rather convoluted prose next. If there is conflicting sourced information then by all means present it, but the fact stands the previous version of the article was built around the incorrect (and unsourced) assertion that Septuagints didn't contain the divine name. I have provided indesputable evidence to the contrary. The most well preserved, oldest (100 B.C!) GREEK Septuagint of the book of Deuteronomy contains 49 identifiable instances of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. After we get the facts straight we can hammer out the prose, either way: 1 - Please do not revert sourced information per WP:VERIFY without VERY good reason, 2 - A revert war would just move this article backwards, bring your information to the table, we'll sort it out and make a good, well referenced article. Duffer 07:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is convoluted, inaccurate, and very redundant. How many times does the article need to say: "The Septuagint does not contain forms of the word YHWH.." regardless of the fact that this assertion is wrong, and I have proven that, the article makes this particular assertion (or variations of) SEVEN times! At least one of the sentences I changed contains completely unsalvagable grammar, there's a myriad of asserted (unsourced) conclusions ("diseptive" "various assumptions" (which coincidentally are provable facts) "Indeed", bad faith "See Also" summaries and an irrelavant catagory "Forgery"; the "Main Article" isn't even right. I'm damned tired of being right yet get constantly battled over my edits simply because I'm a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The title "Jehovah in the New Testament" implies that Jehovah is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, which is by no means the case. I have therefore redirected the article to the more neutral title Tetragrammaton in the New Testament. Yahnatan 00:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The following statement is misleading POV:
"Yah" is not YHWH, and "Alleluia" as it is spelled in Greek does not contain "Yah." (It is pronounced "A-leh-lu-ee-a.")
"Jesus" is not YHWH and is not spelled "Yahsus" or "YHWHsus".
It is important we follow Wikipedia's rules to follow scholarly consensus.
The addition is not misleading. It is a fact that Yah is an abbrevation for the divine name (spell it how you wish). It is also true that Jesus' name means "Jehovah helps" (saves). You can check a dictionary for that information.
Who has written these comments? PUT SIGNATURES ON YOUR COMMENTS, for crying out loud!
ἁλληλυϊά (hallelujah, Heb. הַלְּלוּ־יָהּ) is one of a handful of words in the NT transliterated from Hebrew. Other examples are ἀμήν (amen, Heb. אָמֵן) and ὡσαννά (hosannah, Heb. הוֹשִׁיעַ נָא). The fact that this form (ἁλληλυϊά), a frozen form, contains the Greek transliteration of יה (Yah) indicates nothing about the intent of the author to include any form of God's name in his text. This was simply another frozen form like those above. Jewish audiences would understand them because they were pulled into the Hellenized Jewish Koine from their experience in dealing with the Hebrew language. This is very similar to the now common English expression "mazel tov" which has been pulled from the Hebrew and Yiddish מזל טוב to mean "congratulations." It is simply a frozen expression, and the speaker who uses it does not think about the roots of the words any more than the Jewish speaker of Koine in the first century would have thought about the roots of words like amen and hosanna. The discussion about Jesus' name meaning "YHWH saves" or at all containing portions of the Tetragrammaton is best saved for another time and place. (However, in passing, let me challenge you to find any form of the Tetragrammaton in letters of Ἰησοῦς. Is ΙΗ [iota eta] a form of God's name? I don't think so.) -- Yonah mishael 19:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I am adding some info to a subpage for use in writing the article. Talk:Tetragrammaton in the New Testament/source
Hi, I am trying to get an article started about Jehovah God and not have searches of the name Jehovah directed to a mere mention of the name within the Tetragrammaton article. Please join this discussion Ice9Tea 16:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The following text has been removed - "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the Tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7)."
I find it extremely hard to accept that Jesus was referring to himself in Matthew 4:7, a quick reference to any translation of Matthew 4:4-7 shows that you can only conclude that Jesus is refering to himself if you are a trinitarian.
(KJV) 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Trinitarians may well happily argue that Jesus is god but for non-trinitarians the passage explicitly refers to two people - the Son of God and God, therefore to avoid theological debate within this article I have removed the passage.
This article is not about the Trinity. This article is not about the divinity of Christ. There are other places to deal with those subjects... SV ( talk) 14:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The article should mention that when the Tetragrammaton was written in Hebrew-Aramaic letters in Greek mansucripts (much more often occult/magical scrolls, and not Biblical texts, by the way), then the letters Yod-He-Waw-He written right to left were sometimes interpreted as Greek Pi-Iota-Pi-Iota ΠΙΠΙ written left-to-right. AnonMoos ( talk) 15:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It is known that versions of the Greek Septuagint Old Testament available in the first century did contain the Hebrew Tetragrammaton within the Greek text. It is therefore plausible that early versions of the New Testament (or rather, the separate writings, at least some of which were likely first written in Hebrew or Aramaic, that were eventually compiled into what became known as the NT) may also have contained it, particularly where the NT quotes the OT. The concern here is not whether the extant versions of the NT contain the Tetragrammaton, but whether the issue is sufficiently notable to warrant its own article. If the issue is notable enough, the article should simply present the views of the notable proponents, rather than asserting that the original NT manuscripts (which are not available for any absolute determination) did or did not ever contain the Tetragrammaton; the article could probably also do with a name change. If the issue constitutes undue weight, then the most important points should be merged to Tetragrammaton, and this article should be deleted.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 09:37, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
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(This talk page has been imported from "Jehovah in the New Testament" due to the controversy.)
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2006 - 2008 |
At some point it'll be worth looking at these. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I was asked to give a 3rd opinion. First point: I do not know this topic. Second point: This is a fundamental problem in Wikipedia, namely that when a topic is less than obvious, it is hard to get further opinions. But, banking on my lack of familiarity with the topic, I may actually learn something, and also I do not have an opinion on it yet. But I do know a few things about the NT - although not this specific topic.
So can you guys help me on this please: Is this a representative search? What I would do is not rely on books/authors I do not know, but see what the "best known" NT texts say about this. And I have come to know most of the major NT texts by now. History2007 ( talk) 12:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
And hence this page is full of POV. Shouldn't really exist, seeing as there is no Tetragrammaton in the NT. In ictu oculi ( talk) 12:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi Jeffro77 I have reverted your edits as they are again (a) placing a WP:fringe view, some other issues, like (b) again making it appear as if Howard and Howard/Anchor are 2 sources. I don't think you are suggesting the article should be renamed. I am suggesting it be renamed as the title is unfactual, per Women presidents of America, Glaciers in Egypt, Mentions of helicopters in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and so on. I've moved the Septuagint material to Septuagint manuscripts per title of both articles. In ictu oculi ( talk) 19:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Jeffro77 I already did, before I saw this. But I'd hope that any Third Opinion who comes along will adjudge that having an article about something which does not exist is more than a little problematic. You wrote above: >It is therefore plausible that early versions of the New Testament (or rather, the separate writings, at least some of which were likely first written in Hebrew or Aramaic, that were eventually compiled into what became known as the NT) may also have contained it< ....to say something is "plausible" on the basis of that sort of argument on a Talk page is easy enough, but for a Wikipedia article the copy requires sources. It would seem that scholarship does not consider either of those two theories plausible, otherwise there would be scholarly sources at least saying that either of the two theories was plausible.
_______ Tetragrammaton in the New Testament The Tetragrammaton does not occur in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, but is found in some English and many Hebrew translations. _______ i.e. that isn't POV, that's simply undoing the impression given by a potentially misleading article title. Wheras if we present the view that there might have been/plausible/possible lost NT mss, that isn't a sourceable fact, can only possibly be an opinion. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I am not even sure why there is a big deal here. I think it is obvious that not all NT texts include the Tetragrammaton - that needs no debate. So it appears in a small percentage of NT texts - why is that notable enough to have an article? Unless there is a specific JW angle involved (and I do not think a JW angle should drive NT topics) this is not a notable issue. The Women Presidents of the US analogy is only about 80% applicable I guess, given that it does appear in a very small percentage of NT texts. The title is, of course, a total misnomer.
Two other issues I think are important:
I am not even sure why this needs an article at all. It seems like a short paragraph or two on it in the Tetragrammaton article should be enough. I am not sure why there is a debate and why there needs to be an article on this minor topic. History2007 ( talk) 08:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The article says near the beginning, "Older Jewish manuscripts of the Septuagint often had the letters YHWH or a space within the Greek text, one example being the Dead Sea Scrolls." This sentence has no footnote. It implies that there are a plurality of older Jewish manuscripts of the LXX. The word "Jewish" suggests that there are older and newer Jewish LXX mss. "Older" is a weasel word. A date should be used instead of "older." Is there really proof that mss often had YHWH or a space? Which is it? YHWH or is it space? The statement is vague. If there really is proof of this, it should read something like, "There are 10 different mss extant in fragment form dating from 300 B.C. to 100 B.C. 4 of them have spaces for the Tetragrammaton and 3 have YHWH in Hebrew letters for the Tetragrammaton. 3 of them use kyrios." The Dead Sea Scrolls is not an older Jewish manuscript of the LXX. Does the author mean something like: "Among the DSS, there is one fragment of a manuscript, numbered by Allegro as #3.14159, which contains 2 instances of the Tetrgrammaton inserted in Hebrew in this otherwise Greek fragment." I am unaware of any text of the LXX in the DSS, though there may be fragments. If one finds some part of the Tanach in Greek among the DSS, how does one know that is the LXX? IMHO that sentence should be deleted or revised drastically. ( EnochBethany ( talk) 03:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC))
Since the Tetragrammaton does not appear in the NT, this article would be better titled: Translation of the Tetragrammaton in the NT or Occurrences of Kyrios for the Tetragrammaton in the NT. The NT does refer to or quote the OT where the OT has the tetragrammaton; so far as I know, always using kyrios for the Tetragrammaton. Most famously Rom 10:13 refers to the Lord Jesus as kyrios, where the quotation is from Joel, which in fact has the tetragrammaton: "For whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [YHWH] shall be saved." Even an objective list of those instances would be valuable information. ( EnochBethany ( talk) 03:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC))
Peter also quotes Joel 2:32 on the day of Pentecost (when the Holy Spirit was first poured out to the New Testament church) in Acts 2:21 ( http://biblehub.com/text/acts/2-21.htm), and Peter sites that he is quoting Joel. I do not believe that Peter misquoted scripture (in other words, diminished from God's word (Deuteronomy 4:2 [10], Jeremiah 26:1-2 [11]). Nor do I believe that Paul diminished from God's word when he quoted Joel 2:32 ( http://biblehub.com/text/joel/2-32.htm). And I don't think that the Lord Y'shua misquoted scripture when he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (Deuteronomy 6:4 [12], Deuteronomy 6:5 [13], Matthew 22:37 [14], Mark 12:29 [15], and Luke 10:27 [16]). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giddalti ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of this article, it says, "The Tetragrammaton does not occur in 'any extant' in Greek manuscripts of the New Testament." This is not a true statement. In Revelation 19:1, 3, 4 and 6, the term "Alleluia" is used. "Alleluia" is an English transliteration of a Greek transliteration for the Hebrew phrase, "Hallu Yah!" -- a phrase that David often used in Psalms (Psalm 150 is one example [17]). It's just that we don't see this phrase in most English Bibles. It is often replaced in English with this phrase, "Praise ye the LORD." The name "Yah" is the shortened (sometimes called the "poetic") name of Yahweh. So, Yahweh does occur in "some extant" the New Testament in the form of Yah. This is a fact that may be researched through the study of Greek and Hebrew transcripts of scripture. Yahweh bless all who seek him through his son, Y'shua! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giddalti ( talk • contribs) 13:19, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
You are correct -- I was confusing "extant" with "extent" (I thought it was spelled wrong). However, I know exactly who is being praised in Revelation 19 -- Yahweh (יהוה), whom David also praised with the phrase "Hallu Yah!" Revelation 19 is the one place in the New Testament that translators (scribes) missed removing a reference to Yahweh's name, or if you prefer, a reference to "Yahweh."— Preceding unsigned comment added by Giddalti ( talk • contribs)
Giddalti -- a lot of Hebrew names contain cut-down or abbreviated forms of the Tetragrammaton, as does Halleluia, but the full four-letter form of the Tetragrammaton standing by itself was not commonly pronounced out loud in New Testament times (except by shady occultists practicing magical rituals, or supposedly once a year by the Jewish High Priest in the Holy of Holies of the Jerusalem temple), and is not found in any Greek New Testament manuscript. AnonMoos ( talk) 12:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)