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Kerlolpathi mentions the invasion of Kerala by a Banapperumal or Palli Banapperumal, from Karnataka, the brother of ruler of Tulunadu Kavirasa Singhan. According to Keralolpathi this Banapperumal was send by Krishnaraya the Aryan king ( [[Rashtrakuta] Krishna III] with a huge Nair army three and half lakh strong. This Banapperumal assumed the title Cherman Perumal and became the ruler of Ezhimala whose descendents became the Kolathiris. According to this legend the arrival of Nairs in Kerala could be 960 AD when Krishna invaded Kerala and occupied Chitrakoodam mentioned in Keralolpathi. Nativedravidan ( talk) 15:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Native dravidians are vaanaperummals rather than Banapperumal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.30.208 ( talk) 11:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
There is evidence for existence of Nairs in the time of Adi Shankaracharya (7th century), in fact it was Adi Shankaracharya who made the 64 Anacharams, which include that only the eldest Nambudiri can marry a Brahmin, and also that Nairs shall perform funeral rites for their maternal uncles. 121.214.135.4 ( talk) 01:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Nairs are the most important caste of Kerala, yet this page is really hopeless, nobody can understand what is written, all writers are trying to humiliate the caste, nothing more, contains lot of irreleant info such as what they eat, how they dress etc. Actually does it in anyway differentiate from other castes of Kerala? Are Nairs Brahmins? Then who were Varmas? Were all Nairs of aristocratic and martial lineage, then why Jenmis and Soldiers were Nairs? Were Chekavars Nairs or Sudras? If Sudras, then Dalits are also martial caste. Were Nairs forward castes, then why were they allowed to enter Sudra houses? As per certain theory in Kerala only Namboodiris, Nairs and Vermas were considered to have a caste, others were casteless i.e. Shudras (including most of Iyers and its various sub castes). Please try to give info in NPOV format neatly I am trying to do that Sarvagyana guru ( talk) 18:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
A user has stated that Nairs are Kshatriyas of Nagvanshi order and he has sourced this info from follwing source and it is as follows. Ram Swarup Joon: History of the Jats, Rohtak, India (1938, 1967), Kishori Lal Faujdar: Uttar Pradesh ke Madhyakalin Jatvansh aur Rajya, Jat Samaj, Monthly Magazine, Agra, September-October 1999. It is quite obvious that most of the Kings in Kerala were Nairs. Raja Ravi Varma, Moolam Thirunal Maharajah, Balarama Varma Avittam Thirunal, Chithira Thirunal Balarama Varma, Moolam Thirunal Maharajah were Brahmins and not Nairs. Only relation they had with Nairs was through Sambandam. Please give reputed and verified reference materials and don't make Wikipedia a source of propaganda. Sarvagyana guru ( talk) 06:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no need to discuss more about chaturvarnya here. Even I’ve not heard anything like Nagavanshi Kshathriya and that word is superfluous. At the same time, since Namboothiris have classified someone including other Brahmins as ‘Sudra’, doesn’t mean that they are indeed Sudras. No one would doubt by any yardstick that Nairs were not the Kshathriya caste by the definition of the word ‘Kshathriya’. However, since a few of the Nairs are not Aryans and since ‘Kshathriya’ is an Aryan term they may not fall into that category. Nairs were a heterogeneous group which included servants also, but most of them were warriors and the word ‘Nair’ was synonym to ‘warrior’ in ancient kerala. The mahouts, barbers were all a minority (who still are classified as ‘vilakithala’ and are OBCs) hence there is no question of including them in this category of Nairs. The definition of Nairs in the encyclopedia britianica is “Hindu Caste of the Indian State of Kerala. Before the British conquest i.e. 1792, the region contained small feudal Kingdoms in each of which the royal and noble lineages, the militia and most land managers were drawn from Nairs and related caste. During British rule, Nairs became prominent in position, Government Service, Medicine, Education and Law.” ..And this is what Robin Jaffery (who is probably the most profound writer on this caste in recent years) had to say about Nairs “Nairs are the Savarna Hindus who constituted the warriors, landed gentry and yeoman of Kerala. Nayars are the second largest and one of the most important section of the society of Kerala. They were the lords of the country and guardian of public weal. ” All these definitions go to say that most of the Nairs were indeed on the upper crest of the society and were warriors and kings. Hence there is no doubt about their role in the social system. They were a martial class and are a forward caste anywhere in India. So you could go by any of the above definitions and there is no need to add the word ‘Kshathriya’ in the page. Also putting some hard facts in the introduction is not something any community would encourage and that is natural. The details of subcastes can be put in the subcaste section and not in the introduction.
The Scythian theory is very valid and definitely a major segment of Nairs have a different appearance compared to other Hindus of Kerala like Ezhavas and other OBC/SC/ST sections. I know many instances where people outside Kerala thought Nairs were indeed from Northern part of india. A major chunk of them could be Nagas who mixed with the Scythian clans. This seem to be a strong possibility. By looks, Nairs (and Bunts) stand apart from all other castes of South India including even the other forward castes.. Keraleeyan —Preceding undated comment added 06:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC).
The Nairs are a caste with martial tradition but they were Considered as Brahmins, The fact is Clear from many books for eg;
1. Malabar manual By william Logan
2. Castes and tribes of southern India by Edgar Thurston etc
There are many more books other than the above mentioned apart from many reports and jounnels like
1. Cochin census Report 1901
2. Pceedings of the church missonary society for africa and the east etc
which shows the status of nairs as Brahmins. so at least in the interest of History dont Show false claims in the main page —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.172.15.192 (
talk)
08:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Koyas of Malabar were originally Nairs belonging to the royal caste of Malabar. This should be added to the article. See "Koyas of Calicut: a distinctive matrilineal social group" (P.M. Shiyaali Koya, Professor of Sociology, retd, Zamorins Guruvayurappan College) Yusuf.Abdullah ( talk) 19:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
KOYAS ARE DESENDENTS OF MUKKUVAS=FISHER MEN. Zmorian a Nair king had a large navy but nairs didnt go to sea since it was considered as a taboo ancient time. zamorian could not use mukkuvas to man his navy because they were considered very low in the caste hirarchy hense for the pourpose os manning his navy there where orders of zamorian like one or two male children of every mukkuva(fisher men)parents should be brought up as mappila these people are the main ansisters of Koyas. Even now after many koyas going to gulf and becoming rich if You go to calicut fish market you can see koyas dominating there and also in the fishing industry in general. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.172.115.69 (
talk)
10:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
statistics show that during 1820 and 1880 more than 50 percent of people belonging to cheruma and pulaya camunity converted to islam that means more than 10 percent of the total population which means more than 25 percent of muslim genes who constitute 40 percent of calicut population are from cheruma and pulaya. but still they are mainly decendents of fishermen even though they have arab, cheruma, pulaya genes and koyas still live near costal areas of malabar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.115.69 ( talk) 10:17, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It is recorded in many history books that the Mukuva families used to convert to Islam and become part of the Zamorin’s navy. But nowhere it is stated that they are the Koyas. It may not be true as most of such converts had the title ‘Marikkar’ and not ‘Koya’. It may be noted that ‘Kunjali Marikkar’ was the chief of Zamorin’s navy. It is also mentioned in certain books that the Koyas were in fact the Nair nobles who got converted during Tipu’s onslaught. Though Tipu considered Nairs as his Enemy no.1, he was convinced that without Nair support he can’t do anything in Malabar. For this he made an offer to all Nairs who convert, that their arms and status will be reinstated and also offered them the title ‘Koya’, to recognize the proud lot. Malabar Manual says that many nobles accepted this offer. The matrilineal family structure of the Koyas gives credence to this theory. Also many Nairs would have got converted along with the Arakkal clan of Kannur. Hyder Ali after capturing north Malabar converted and enslaved many Nair soldiers, Shaikh Ayaaz khan, the fieriest and noblest among Hyder’s chieftains was a such a Nair convert. Logan says Hyder preferred Ayaaz Khan as his successor ahead of own son Tipu. However, Malabar Muslims are predominantly dalit converts, the dalit presence in Malappuram and Calicut is the lowest in the state, most of them got converted during the mapilah mutiny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.20 ( talk) 06:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Many koyas claim to be the decendants of nairs and arabs but Koyas are not a caste like nairs. mappilas marry with out looking wheather the bride or groom is a marrikar or a koya or a fisher man muslim but the case is different regarding Thangal Who are considered desendants of arabs with native women(wemen could be from any caste)thangal marry thangal only (but thangals of kerala dont recognise thangal of lakshadweep). Hence you can claim koyas are desendents of nairs, mukkuvas and dalitts just like any other mappila and majority of their ansisters were mukkuvas and dalits .Thangals where and are rich mappilas but most of the mappilas incuding koyas where poor living in poverty untill the gulf money started folwing to calicut. And nobody knows where these decendent of dalits converts and mukkuva converts are gone even though they constitute the major gene pool among mappilas because every mappilla claim including muslim writers claim mappilas to be the decendants of arabs or nair only the various commissions appointed by the govenment says mappilas including koyas are mainly coverts of dalits and backward classes and reservation should be increased in jobs and schools and for information sake even marrikar claim that they are decendents of arabs not mukkuvas. Tippu coverted not just nairs but people belongiing to every hindu caste and may be mappilas starting imitating nair coustum just like ezhavas did to gain respect because zamorians army mainly consists of nairs.and also for information Koyas are OBC in the reservation list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.112.175 ( talk) 07:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
If you dont know any koyya selling fish take a walk in to ANY FISH MARKET in calicut ANY DAY and just see your self or you just go to any fishing harbor or some thing like that in calicut you will see the reality just explain where the mukkuvas converts who where given high position and status in the zamorians navy are gone they were also rich had high position in the socity as generals and soldiers and leaders of the muslim population. May be they now call themselve decendants of nairs not the decendants of mukkuvas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.128.136 ( talk) 07:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
ANCIENT TIME WHEN NAIR LADIES WERE OUT CASTED THEY WERE GIVEN AWAY TO MUKKUVAS IN THAT SENSE MANY MUKKUVAS COULD CLAIM TO BE THE DECENDANTS OF NAIRS JUST LIKE OBC KOYAS. KOYAS LIKE MUKKUVAS MAY HAVE NAIR ANSISTERS BUT MAJORITY OF THEIR ANSISTERS ARE MUKKUVAS AND DALITS. KOYAS MARRY ANY MUSLIM SAY MARRIKAR OR FISHER MEN MUSLIMS FOR GENERATION AND YOU CLAIM THEY ARE NAIR CONVERTS. DONT JUST DO TRACING(propaganda trcing for gaining respect) TO NAIR THARAVADS DO SOME TRACING OF THE MAJORITY ANSISTERS TO MUKKUVA HOUSE OF CALICUT AND ANOTHER MAJOR GROUP OF ANSISTERS TO DALIT HUTS OF MALABAR.
EACH AND EVERY MAPPILA OF MALABAR WHEATER KOYA OR MARRIKAR OR FISHER MAN MAPPILA DO TRACING(propaganda to gain respect) TO NAIR THARAVAD OR TO ARABS. KOYAS JUST LIKE MARIKAR SELLS FISH IN EVERY FISH MARKET OF CALICUT. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.172.133.153 (
talk)
07:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Despite my best efforts to destroy the article about Nairs, I am disappointed that I could not convince some people to avoid reverting the vandalisms, Removing sourced data that is pro-Nair. I just wanted this article to be used for Marxist propaganda, but unfortunately this article contains pro-Hindu information only gibberish stating that why Nairs should be considered the protectors of Hinduism in Kerala.
Let people who think they love extremist Hindu community spoil this article further. This page is like VHP propaganda. (If anybody has cared to read, as per Hindus all inventions and worthwhile discoveries have been made by Hindu scientists and others have just copied from them. Such as whole world knows radio was invented by Marconi but as per Hindus it is Lord Vishnu. In Hindu textbooks there is no Raman Effect, they claim it was first discovered by Hindus).
All the best. Lal Salam. Down with Hinduism —Preceding talk • contribs) 14:18, 27 August 2009
Some sections was deleted by an Ip user/unconfirmed user....Pls do not spoil the article....
ARUNKUMAR P.R Talk 08:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Some user is adding polemic text which may inflammate religious animosities, under the subtitle: Religion. What that person has added has no approved reference value. Anything written in a book or article by religious fanatics should not be included in an objective place like Wikipedia. Nairs are a brave and cosmopolitan group. This kind of attitude is not Nair-like. This person with a communal agenda should be debarred from changing text to suit his views. user:som123
The fanatic user who is bent upon making communal disharmony is adding non-sensical materials under the subhead: Religion. Again I have deleted the unfortunate comments. Nairs are proud Hindus who want the pristine glory of Hinduism and India to be upheld. This person is totally biased and he should be debarred from using the Wikipedia for his own communal and divisive agenda. Please take note of this; otherwise these intrusions are to be reported. Nov 9, 2009 user:som123 —Preceding undated comment added 04:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC).
I am not a communist or Marxist as Anandks007 alleges. But I do not want this Nair page to be a launching pad for Nair-Christian or Nair-Muslim polemics. This is unhealthy practice which can never be tolerated. The references given are not well-accepted. Anything which is printed and published as a book is not to be considered the truth. The accepted writings which are authenticated by university-approved research only can be considered as refernces. There is no authentic report on the number of Nairs killed by Muslims or on the number of Muslims killed by Nairs. So we cannot accept that account in any case. Anandks007 has a hidden agenda. When I say the main protoganists of the Communist parties are Nairs, it is historically true. When Mannathu Padmanabhan's leadership of the Vimochana Samaram is highlighted, it is true historically. But a casual comment of P. Govinda Pillai is quoted, it is not worthy to be added in Wikipedia, since many such allegations and counter -allegations are rampant and all these cannot ber included in this Wikipage of Nair.
About the voting pattern as quoted in the Hindu cannot become part of the Wikipedia, since all such surveys and opinion polls have no scientific value. So I have done the right thing in deleting the Opinion Poll Part. Truth can be always added; but not partisan views and agendas. Nairs are proud social reformers and they fought for the under-privileged people at all times. They were the leaders in all such activities. They were against all divisive agendas. We are proud that Congress Party, Communist Parties, the Socialist Parties and the Bharatiya janata Party are all initiated by Nair leaders. == Som123 ( talk) 11:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The original definition of Nairs in Encyclopedia Britanica doesn't include the words "like maarans" and has been added by some edotors. This is wrong info as Marars even today are considered as a different social group. They were confined to temples and never ruled or fought wars. They have their own 'Marar Samajam' and are ambalavasis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.9.13.137 ( talk) 04:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Marar may be considered same in the caste hierarchy but they are not Nairs and they different in the socio-functional aspects which is given in the definition of Nairs.. Are we not restricting the Nair page to the ‘malayala kshathriya’ group of Nairs..? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.161.106 ( talk) 07:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
"In course of time a number of occupational castes sought their way in to the Nayars by proversion, but they could only be successful nominally. They are: Champukotti (copper smith), Chendakotti or Marar (drummer), Kalamkotti (potter), Chakkala (oil monger), Pallichan (palanquin bearers), Chitikan (performers of obsequies) etc. Even the Veluthedan (washerman) and the Vilakkithalavan (barber) staked their claims for being Nayars. Marriages between the first five divisions (Kiryathil, Illathu, Swaroopathil, Padamangalakkar & Tamilpadakkar) and the occupational groups endeavouring to provert themselves to be Nayars are forbidden. " Axxn ( talk) 07:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Kshatriyas other than some subdivisions of Rajputs never wear sacred thread. This is the case with most of the Pahari Rajputs, Marathas, Meiteis, Chhetris, Gorkhas, Khatris.etc. Even the Cochin Maharajah, who is the topmost "Samanta Kshatriya" in Kerala was not recognized as a true Kshatriya by Azhvanchery Thamprakkal. This is because some sections of Namboothiris believe that Kshatriya race became extinct during Treta Yuga. Nairs were never classified according to the fourfold varna system before 17th century. The varna system in Kerala was different. There were only 3 varnas: Namboothiri, Savarna and Avarna. Most of the works made by Indian authors during 17th and 18th century classifies Nair as Kshatriya. However the ruling class reverted the varna system to the four fold one during the census of 1836 and continued it after that. Since the varna classification is neither clear, nor undisputed in Kerala, the original varna status should be used for Nairs, who are the descendants of Nagvanshi Kshatriyas who migrated to Kerala from Ahikshetra (Although Ram Swarup John specifically mentions only the Kiryathil and Nambiar subcastes, the remaining 3 top most ranks should be included as they are also same ethnically). As pointed out by several British sociologists and anthropologists like Fuller and Logan, the caste definition during census was modified to suit the interests of the ruling elite. For example see this. Of the historical records which actually classify Nairs as Kshatriya, some are the following:
122.177.196.222 ( talk) 15:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
See these:
Can any one comment if the the Assyrian name Nairi (KUR.KUR Na-i-ri, also Na-'i-ru) for a region / people of eastern Anatolia, roughly corresponding to the modern Van and Hakkâri provinces of Turkey. During the Bronze Age collapse (13th to 12th centuries BC), tribes settling in this region were considered a force strong enough to contend with both Assyria. The Nairi was thought to be incorporated into Urartu during the 10th century BC.
Did they have any connection with the present day nairs? The last name Nair is still common in Turkey and Armenia see Nairi_(Armenian_usages). comment added by 98.217.129.62 ( talk) 06:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Genetic testing has shown that the original Nairs consist of gene type R1a strain M17 ( See here). The M17 gene is the Mediterranean type. The M17 gene is believed to have originated from Eastern Europe. Turkey is in Eastern Europe. -- Zero.vishnu ( talk) 12:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Does´nt Nayars of Malabar deserve a subsection ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Nairs of Malabar have always regarded themselves different from the bulk of nayars in other parts of Kerala and have several unique customs and practices. Please read anthropologists and historians such as Kathleen Glough and Fawcett.
Like i said before nairs of malabar are a little bit more like bunts thats it.no sub section required. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
hmm..strange, after reading much about nayars, i've not heard anything like nayars of malabar having different customs as of nairs from other areas. In ancient terms, nairs of malabar is referred generally as Nairs of entire kerala as most of the travellers mentioned Kerala as Malabar (Kerala is a term that came up in 1950s.) So what has been mentioned could be that the nairs of malabar (kerala) has common customes as that of bunts of tulunadu. Also as a Nair with relatives across kasargode to kanyakumari, i haven't noticed any difference in the customs or rituals w.r.t marriage, death etc except for certain trivial observations like Nairs of nothern districts eating non-veg during festivals while travancore and kochi areas observe strict vegetarian menu during festivals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.188.23 ( talk) 05:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
This trivial discussion started by by sanam does not require anymore space.Northern nayars do have certain customs especially related to marriage ones a little different from nairs in the south and anand stating they consume beef is something i have never seen or heard.eating beef and pork is both sin and drinking of alcohol traditionally prohibited among all nairs,bunts and the tulu jains.though nowadays in india people can do wahtever they want.skin colour debate is also a bit nonsensical there are few relatively darker nairs and even bunts in all parts where they inhabit(north south(kerala) and tulu nadu).it is not region specific.what makes nairs and bunts different from other communities is south india is their sharp feautures parrot like nose,silky hair and presence of blue and green iris in many individuals right from travancore uptil kundapura in karnataka.that is what written in the books by foreign observers of india especially during the british india time.many genetic studies also say that these communities are similar to the Mediterranean race subsection of caucasians. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 08:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
If someone thinks that they are superior nairs, it is pure ignorance and height of rigidity. God Save them. Nairs who nurture such thoughts are not the Nairs whom the world admires. Nairs are admired for their high intellect and magnanimity; they make the world feel that they are superiors rather than claiming superiority for talking in a specific accent or for being born a few miles towards this side or even worse, for being born to a Nambuthiri. Come on guys, grow up. My interest in this page is purely an enthusiasm to know the past, I don't carry this forward, the world is ever evolving and be part of the change than to clinch and cosset in the dead past. For god’s sake, don’t initiate or feed such crap discussions anymore.. Keraleeyan —Preceding undated comment added 05:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC).
There should be more information about Nair landlord families such as the Vengayil Nayanars who owned 200,000 acres (more than the Chirakkal Raja) and the Kalliat Jenmi who had 36,779 acres. [1] This is not to say the list of every Nair tharavad should be made, but those such as Vengayil, Kalliat and other major landlord families should be included (provided there is a valid reference). 124.180.148.29 ( talk) 01:11, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
you can't mention all the landlord families in this article,before the landforms most land was with the nairs or nambis.you can't mention every family that held land.i suggest keep it to royalty and chieftain warriors. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 05:25, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Just letting you all know, that a user has started an article Ezhavathy which describes a fictional caste of Brahmins in Kerala known as Ezhavathy. Please help in getting this article deleted by commenting on its deletion page. Thankyou. 121.214.112.101 ( talk) 10:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Ezhavathy, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ezhavathy. Thank you.
Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Axxn ( talk) 04:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
To be anthroplogically, culturally and socially correct one must include a definition of Nayar that encompasses from Kiriyathil sub-division to the Valinjan Nair. Wikipedia is a source of information that we must strive to use language that avoids, class-prejudice, names dropping and peacock terms. Whether a person is a Kiriyattil nayar like Adiyodi or a "thana" (low) nair like Valinjan Nair, it can all be mentioned under structure of Nayar society. The primary definition should be all inclusive and anthropologically accurate. I sincerely request members involved in maintaing this article to help in this endeavour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The E. thurston, kathleen glough, Fawcett and all anthropologists and historians note that nayar is a general term applied to lineages professing a wide range of professions. It would be inaccurate to under represent any section of the society in the umbrella definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 16:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Kindly read anthropologists and historians Edgar Thurston provides the most exhaustive definition of south Indian communities. Kathleen glough represents a social scientis who has studied and appreciated nayar customs most exhaustively . Fawcett and Logan represent individuals who has documented nayars meticulously, Refer these studies before engaging in socially-misrepresenting ego satisfying chauvinism. For instance refer how edgar Thurston refers to Nayars. http://www.archive.org/details/castestribesofso05thuruoft Everybody accepts nayars have a military history however that is not all nayars are , the chakkala are as much a nayar as a nambiar is these are only stratification within the structure of the nayar society
Here is the link to the interna structure by fuller and read it yourself in case you are falsely claiming you have read it http://www.jstor.org/pss/3629883
He clearly describes the broadness of the nair occupational categories —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 16:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
"He clearly describes the broadness of the nair occupational categories" explain it here. Axxn ( talk) 16:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC) Read the entire article you will understand. Wikipedia should be a source of information that is accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Kindly refer avoid ego satisfying definitions and be anthropologicallyaccurate when you define nayars. Donot engage in edit wars for personalsatisfaction strive to keep Wikipedia a unprejudiced objective source ofinformation. Read CJ fuller completely . Donot claim to have read it when youhave´nt.Nayars have a broad range of occupations and constitute a broad rangeof racial admixture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Check out on Tamil padam nayars you will understand I quote fuller in internal structure of nayar caste Some of the latter were subdivisions of Nayars residing outside Malabar, for only 128 were enumerated in Malabar itself (Census 1891e:380). ... with their traditional occupations in order of rank: (1) Kiriyam; (2) Illam; (3) Svarupam; (4) Padamangalam; (5) Tamil Padam; (6) ...." so read articles
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sanam001 (
talk •
contribs)
17:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Anandksoo7 and a few others seem to be interested in maintaining inaccurate and incomprehensive definition of nayars and promoting and maintaining anthropologically inaccurate defenitions. The present definition of nayars in incomprehensive and inadequate and does not representative of the entire nayar society. I repeat Kindly read the articles of all the above mentioned authors and make the definition as comprehensive as possible. He and a few others has been engaging in similar behavior in the menon article, Samanthan Nair article etc. donot engage in edit wars for the purpose of ego-satisfaction.Every historian and anthropologist will agree "Nayars are a broad community encompassing lineages with several professions" and that "nairs have a military history and that many ruling elites have been derived from the nayar stock". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Please read census reports of Kerala before and your answers for your questions will come by itself. Kindly refer the communities that are presently recognized by the state government as Nayar. This has been the case before and even today it is only the dynamics within the heirarchy of nayar clans to push "fringe subdivisions" in fuller´s language. So keep the discussion focuused, Nayars represent a wide range of occupations and caste admixture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar E. Kathleen Gough
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2844041
See first page last paragraph —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The reference you have provided here is of 1952. And it is full of errors. Gough describes Nairs as a "Hindu caste of landholders with a matrilineal kinship system" and not as a group of barbers and fishermen as you are claiming here. Also no one is blind here. You don't need to use the bold characters. Axxn ( talk) 03:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
See page 2 of your reference (Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar by Gough). She states that not much is known about the lower subcastes and her article deals only with the major Nair subcastes, i.e which are martial castes. Also see the Map given in page 19, which is titled: "The Nayar Kingdoms of the Malabar Coast", in which a map of the local kingdoms are given. Kolattunad, Kottayam, Kadattunad, Kurumbranad, Zamorin's Kingdom, Walluvand, Palghat, Cochin and Travancore are labelled as "Nayar Kingdoms" by Gough, although out of these kingdoms Kolattunad, Kottayam and Cochin are described by majority of the scholars as Non-Nayar or having doubtful Nayar origin.
The conclusions can be made is that Gough is not aware of the relation between the non-Nayar lower castes and wasn't aware of their names. Your reference can't be taken as a serious study. Axxn ( talk) 03:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Kindly donot make a fool of yourself by stating that anthropologist and historians like K.glough and Fuller cannot be taken as a serious study.
Reference-1 Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar E. Kathleen Gough
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2844041
In essence nobody refutes that the ruling elite of nads were higher sub-divisions of nairs or Samantha Kshatriya who derive their ancestry from sudra stock. However it is the proportion of nayars that were ruling elite and nayars that had other professions that is the issue to be considered while framing a definition for nayars. Nayars professed wide variety of professions.To be precise, what K.Glough notes is that not much is known about the traditional kinship among servant classes of nayars and not that they are not recognized as Nayars. Also kindly read properly maintaining your objectivity and not taking things too personal . See page 2 para 1 on left where she gives the distribution frequency of nayar profession based sub-clans in a representative proportion. Now you will understand that the proportion of lineages that are retainers , oil-mongerers , pot makers or funeral priests are in proportions higher than the chiefly lineages and that mutual ritual ranking between is clear (not unequivocal) .
Reference -2 The Internal Structure of the Nayar Caste, CJ Fuller
“eighteen Nayar subdivisions are listed (with their traditional occupations) in order of rank……………………”
Akattu charna nayars (clerks, domestics and scribes) , Urali nayars/ Maniyani (masons) , Pallichan (palanquin bearer), Chembu-kotti (copper-smith), Chakkala nayar, Vattakadu nayar (oil mongerer), Vilakkithala nayar (barber), Veluthedathu nair (Washer-man), Attikurisssi nayar (funeral priests) are all nayar castes only different in their ritualistic ranking from the ruling elite or mercenary/soldier ranks. Do not overlook these professional divisions and ego-based claim that all nayars are ruling elite. It is anthropologically and historically incorrect. Kindly read documents and research articles more objectively.
Again you seem to be ignorant about NSS. Although many divisions of nayars are lower ritual rank , the NSS also accepts them as nayars. You can contact the following members of NSS.
Sri.P.V.Neelakanta Pillai, Advocate
President
Nalanda, Kottiyode, Attingla-P.O.,
Thiruvananthapuram District.
Phone 0470-2622368 (Residence), 0470-2622248 (Office)
Narayana Panicker.P.K., General Secretary
Lekshmyvilas Bunglow,
Vazhappally, Changanassery.
Phone:0481-24220330 (Residence), 0481-2410566 (Office)
3. In essence, nayars used to profess a wide variety of professions and requires that this fact is emcompassed to keep the primary description generic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 09:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
dear mr varma... thanks for such a prompt reply to my query!... that explains the diversity among nairs especially the north malabar variety, but one doubt still lingers.. that of GSB'S assimilating into nairs ... as far as i know they have been a fairly closed community !.. without much inclination to absorb into a dominant community like nairs...regards vivviki 117.192.224.124 ( talk) 08:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
This is for mr suresh varma..... you have written about castes like GSB'S and pisharody's assuming the title 'nair' or pillai' as well as marathas, bunts and arya vaishyas...but is there any reference for this statement.... kindly reply... vivwiki.. Vivwiki ( talk) 21:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Dispute : Nayar is an umbrella term for a community that traditionally profess different occupations and encompasses several distinct un-connected lineages with different hereditary occupation. This has to be there in primary description and not peacock terms.
We should strive to keep Information about a community in an open source information database like Wikipedia to be based on the definition of social scientists and not based on what as a few individuals would like to portray it as.
1. First , when social scientists and respective community representative organizations (NSS: contacting NSS personnel telephonically is oftent the fastest and direct procedure to get confirmation of facts) both unanimously confirm that they are ranks within the nayar class, individual ego based efforts to portray nayar identity as only ruling elite becomes incorrect and a peacock tendency of certain users.
Yes, they do
2. Second, even if we forget Vilakkithala , Chakkala etc for a moment. The clerks, scribes, domestics and external servants within royal and nambudiri household (charna nayars), migrated (Tamil padam) are all classes of nayars with middle ritual rank within the nayar society and their professions are not mentioned too in the present generic definition .Even the divisions like illathu and swaroopathil are domestic serviles who later became retainer-class. The servile classes form the bulk of nayar identity. According to the 1891 Travancore census 18.92% of the total population were classified as Nair “excluding Samanthan Nair” and in 1941 it was 17.53%. In Travancore in 1931, the Samanthan Nair population was only 97. In Cochin in 1931, the populations was only 571 (0.05%). In Malabar in 1931, the Samanthan Nair population was only 0.15%. So overlooking the professions of a large proportion of the nayar society as domestic serviles and mercenaries and trying to represent the image of the entire nayar society only as ruling elite and aristocracy is characteristically peacock.
Charna nairs fall into two categories Akattu and Purattu who inside and outside attendant serviles of royal households. Menon (an akattu charna nair) is a typical example of a scribe -a public servant who rendered internal services within royal households.
3. It is a historical fact that a number of comparatively low-status groups were absorbed into the Nair community and the cases of the Veluthedathu Nair and Vilakkithala Nair are only the most apparent among them. For instance the chempu-kotti was elevated with social sanction as nayar when the requirement for roofing of temples with copper tiles arose. The Kerala-jatyachara-nirnayam included them as Nairs and the present census reports includes them too. It is only in the intermediary period (1800s and early 1900s) when higher divisions of nayar society was playing sub-caste politics to provort themselves so as to eventually make exodus from nayar by claiming Samantha status that census during these periods tended to enumerate these lowest ranks of nayars as separate castes . Now if you want to consider Itasseri and Chakkala, or the Pallicchan, Vattakkatan, and Asthikkuracchi as non-nayar professions it is a casteist behavior and members who are behaving in a way are no different from a Nambudiri who calls nayars strictly sudra (Lexicographers like P.Narayana Panicker and Sanskrit authorities like Kanippayoor says the concealed meaning of nair – nai : the totem dog “suna-eva-vritty” dog-like-loyalty exhibiting serviles but not derogatory when used in a totemic sense like in purusha-pungava or bull-man and not the much publicized glorifying etymology involving the Sanskrit word Nayaka or leader (anyway that’s irrelevant to the point of this discussion here). Today one cannot identify a Pallichan, illakkar or swaroopathil nair who have no separate titles. The only ones you can distinguish are nairs who have distinguishing titles.
Since (1) community organizations like NSS agree that they are Nairs (2) Namboothiris sanction them so as in Kerala-jatyachara-nirnayam (3) Social scientists agree they are nairs with lower rirtual rank. Thus politically, traditionally and scientifically they are considered nairs today. An effort note not-to recognize this is sub-casteism . Almost 15% of Kerala population is Nair and to say all of this were only landlords and ruling elite and serviles nairs were a small fraction is incorrect
4. Therefore if you feel ashamed to specifically mention barber or washer personnel due to image problem (ego) , the closest we can work out is to avoid the “kshatriya” peacocking (I have seen a number of unscientific and non-productive discussions here) and say
“Nayar, is a wide and general honorific appellation for a heterogenous matrilineal Hindu community, from Kerala, India, with a strong military tradition and several distinct elements professing different occupations. The Nayar caste encompasses several distinct un-connected lineages who, by hereditary occupation, included ruling feudal elite, retainers of land, soldiers , mercenaries, indoor and outdoor servile classes and integrated migrants from Canarese and Tamil speaking territories adjacent to Kerala"
In this way you can avoid peacocking, be factual, anthropologically and historically correct and avoid “instigate” sub-casteist or caste chauvinist users vandaling quality of Wikipedia articles with peacock terms and substantiating them with un-scientific and unfocussed polemics.
There is nothing personal against you, however your arguments are not scientific and based on heresay and feelings , if you are so confident why don´t you co-operate for a moderation with a social scientist as a moderator.
This is what the historian Francois Pyrard says about Nairs: "As for the Nairs, they are all nobles and meddle with neither handicraft nor trade, nor any other exercise, but that of arms, which they always carry." Axxn ( talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This is definitely an issue. The days of observance of pula-vaalaima or asoucham or hygiene practices is inversely proportinal to the ritual status and precisely proves that the nair society encompassed distinct ranks and not just nobles and lords. The definition needs to be more comprehensive and devoid of kshatriya peacocking. I myself am a Nambiar by birth and hence a Nayar , however that does not mean we as Nayars try to feed wikipedia with socially incorrect definitions. Wikiepdia is an opensource encyclopedia to be factual is our duty to readers.Sociologists agree that as Kerala caste names are inherited matrilinially and the sambandham unions were morganistic in nature, the mother has to be Kshatriya (dwija) and the nature of her marriage Anuloma if the progeny is to be recognized as Kshatriya. Samantha Kshatriya is threaded because after the mahadanam is performed a Samanthan is no more a glorifiried-sudra and becomes Kshatriya and threaded (dwija). Thus the samantha Kshatriya becomes higher in status during his period of status-tenure to the non-threaded section of Antarala jati /Ambalavasi. In contrast, Samantha is not a dwija and non-threaded and simply a Nayar with higher ritual-rank and is below in rank of Ambalavasi. You can see how pula and Valaima days were combined to denote a spectrum of ritual ranks even within the heterogenous Nayar community User:Sanam001 .
Some user has been trying to incite communal tension by calling Ezhava and Nair ladies concubines as he did here. Please refrain from inciting ethnic hatred. Axxn ( talk) 12:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Here he calls Nairs "dogs". Is there no one here to ban this guy? Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 03:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
He doesn't call Nairs "dogs". He was just suggesting how the name might have originated from loyalty being a quality of the Nairs. Don't let your strong feelings dominate your logic.-- Josettpat ( talk) 01:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Kindly try to discuss issues rather than trying character assasination. Lexicographers agree that this usage is totemic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 09:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
If the administrator finds it suitable i am wiling to participate in a consensus/dispute resolution that can be reached on the basis of any wikipedia administrator who is a student or researcher of anthropology and may volunteer to mediate the validity of the arguments of either parties placed and can comment on the merit and scientific validity of the following three expert studies.
1. Changing kinship usages in the setting of political and economic changes among the nayars of Malabar by E Kathleen Glough in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 82, No. 1
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2844041?cookieSet=1
2. The internal structure of the nayar caste by C.J Fuller in the Journal of anthropological research 1975
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3629883
3. Nayars of Malabar by Fawcett
Thanks by Sanam001
It appears that the discussion is not following objective practices and looks like we should have a moderation committe of expert anthroplogists to resolve the issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I intend to arrive at a dispute resolution.Hwever since discussions and efforts to third party opinion to reach dispute resolution is not solving the dispute, we should follow the normal course and ask for an arbitration committe-- Sanam001 ( talk) 11:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC).
Why dont you want to co-operate to dispute resolution through an arbitration committee if you are so confident that your content version is right ? I am still open to the idea.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 17:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
dear all, where can i get hold of the book-" history of the nair service society"( title may be in malayalam) 117.192.224.124 ( talk) 08:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
since 30 and mult-party discussion has failed reach a consensus between disputed parties and since the issue is complex and sensitive and content discussions detouring into personal attacks and mudslinging, the only option for maintaining genuineness of article will be review of content by an expert committee . I therefore kindly request Anandks007 and Suresh.Varma 123 to kindly co-operate to formal mediation of the content dispute existing between us. In this was we will have an expert committee commenting and we can avoid accusing one another of vandalism and edit wars.
Thanking you in advance-- Sanam001 ( talk) 21:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Even if the ratio is 5:1 it means a consensus has not been reached by multi-party discussion on the content. So we have to amicably resolve the issue by request for formal request for mediation as next step of dispute resolution. It is the normal course of dispute resoution , you are encouraged to participate-- Sanam001 ( talk) 02:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
There is no dispute i voice my protest against sanam's inclusion which are borderline vandalizations and misleading information. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 05:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam’s view points are highly malicious, distorted and half-baked with clear intentions. People who believe and quote bigoted authors like Kanipapayur are exposing themselves here. They are not fit to make any intelligent, meaningful and sensible discussions. No more time to waste for Sanam.( Keraleeyan)
Administrators agree that content dispute is not vandalism. It always takes more than one to create an edit war. Wikipedia strongly discourages the policy of actively recruiting and directing people with similar view points towards a common topic as it is an unhealthy practice in resolving content disputes. I will continue to strive towards maintaining Wikipedia free of peacock terms and claims. Even if the ratio is 5:1 it simply means that a consensus on content dispute has not been reached by all parties with dispute. I am still open to the idea of dispute resolution through an independent committee who are experts in the field of anthropology to validate the scientific accuracy of cited references of either parties. Our focus should be the genuiness of content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 13:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep calm and focus on the content of dispute and assume good faith of your opponent in a content dispute as such methods are encouraged by wikipedia. Sanam001 ( talk) 14:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Articles should be written with scientific proof and should be misleading people as wiki is been used by a large number of people. But whatever you have written is quite personal imaginations and not facts —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.112.143 ( talk) 13:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Well the problem is only as long as you want to specifically use the sanskrit word "kshatriya". Then it has to be true to its meaning and intent. However if you refrain from "Kshatriya" to people with strong martial tradition, i will have no content dispute. -- Sanam001 ( talk) 14:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
You may benefit from checking the following PhD thesis from the Department of History at MG university. It describes Nayar regulation Act, Travancore Kshatriya Act etc and provides extensive information of the legal distinction between the two communities.You will realise by yourself legitimacy of your POV pushing of Nayars as Malayala Kshatriya
Title: History of Social legistlation in Travancore state'
http://www.mgutheses.in/page/?q=T%201251&search=&page=&rad=#38
Also you may want to check on the workings of organizations of Kshatriya Kshema Sabha of Kerala, Kshatriya Sabha, Samantha Mahasabha etc and check out with NSS their relation-ship with these parallel organization.Truth will be self evident.
Kindly donot attack the MG university , history department :-))) -- Sanam001 ( talk) 09:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As Sanam is pushing on with his POV despite the warning from several users here, I request all users to revert his edits without further wastage of time. The Kshatriya / Sudra issue has been discussed in detail years ago and if user Sanam is having any doubts he can check the archives. It is clear that Sanam, rather than reaching a consensus on his edits is repeating his blatant POV pushing citing some irrelevant and obsolete arguments. Let's keep wikipedia free of racist hatred and POV. I am listing his most favorite targets:
You may first want to pursue understanding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nair#Truth
N number of POV and propaganda and manipulating wikipedia is not going to change facts. Infact these discussions will be part of input data for existing academic research on "changing social mobility strategies of malayala shudras in post democratic india" soon to be published in a high impact factor research journal. Infact interesting patterns emerge on comparison of web-based propaganda and data collected through interviews of more than 2000 nairs on the same issue. In web-based platform offering anonimity the pretentious propaganda is higher. For every nayar in the sample case study of 2000 interviewed interesting patterns are emerging between nayars of erstwhile malabar district and Travancore-cochin and between those born before and after Abolishment of matriliniality in 1970s. -- Sanam001 ( talk) 10:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Don´t worry, i intend to strive towards keeping wiki clean of POV on grounds of moral public responsibility to keep information faithful from POV . As for research articles, they are peer reviewed by experts and you will see it in the coming years once study is complete. As for racism i am sure the peer review, the objectivity of the analysis and the fact that i myself am a nair/nambiar any recepient of such a complaint would be easily be able to ascertain the genuiness of such a complaint. I implore you in the spirit of collective knowledge tradition of a great institution like IIT from where you claim to have graduated (for i was a research student at IISc myself and have had the oppurtunity to see IIT students) that you help me in maintaing POV free articles. The natural dignity of the nayar race is proverbial in several travelogues and as one member to another within the community my sincere suggestion to you would be that let us maintain it by showing our integrity.Let us strive to keep wiki clean of peacock terms and POV. On a different note one of the legitimate Malayala kshatriya community member ( a member of the palli division of the kolathiri family was amused by my study when i met him as part of teams approaching him because the stanis of malabar had to interact with our thampuran how to deal the issue of MDB stripping of our dignities ) and said that you (I)are true in the spirit of intergrity of your lineage (my matrilinial line are officially ooralars/stanis (official dignities) in one of the temples under chirakkal taluk and we even today look upon the sanction of the thampuran for our sthanan vilichu chollal ceremony. Being a sat-sudra has never been a shame for me but rather a matter of my natural dignity and has never affected my judgement of analysing anthropological material pertaining to my own community. I beleive in a POV free nayar image-- Sanam001 ( talk) 13:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I intend to strive towards keeping wiki clean of a POV free nair image- articles that do not reek of Kshatriya peacocking.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 13:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Frankly Sanam it doesn't matter whether u are a nambiar,namboodiri,ezhava or pulayar(no contributor questioned ur background and lineage).all u need to be a wiki contributor is to be neutral,provide verifiable information and not insert pov(in your case the namboodiri line) and ofcourse not indulge in abuse which u are doing so often.in wikipedia it really doesn't matter if u are a passout from iit or iisc or harvard,so i would be very happy if u edit some science related articles based on your self proclaimed knowledgde than consistently distort articles related to malayali communities.thank you. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 15:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Why POV pushing by Sanam is based on irrelevant and obsolete data? Let us take a look. (First a warning to you Sanam. Don't vandalize my post my posting in between. If you want to post your opinion, write them below the entire post)
The dispute has two points.
1. nayar definition is not generic and gives the impression that all nairs are ruling elite thereby undermining and descriminating all other traditional occupations of nayars. Nayar is not a single entity with a single lineage therefore i am ready to compromise by individually not mentioning the barber, washer women but they are reduced just to serviles so the neutral definition should include "distinct lineages" with " distinct´professions" (parisha) and mention ruling elite, soldiers, peasants and serviles.
2. The use of the word "kshatriya" and claiming kshatriya status is incorrect. nayars are sat-sudras. However as stated earlier i will not emphasise on the sat-sudra point as a comprimising neutral solution provided nayar and all nayar related pages are completely devoid of the word "kshatriya" and any sentences in whatsoever form infering a kshatriya peacocking. We should strive that wikipedia should not provide false information even if it cannot provide all information.
These are the only two acceptable neutral solution. Otherwise the dispute exists still and dispute resolution taken to next level.
As for Mr. Suresh Varma identifying himself as a Kshatriya, i have no problem as it is his personal decision and i have no moral authority to interfere in your personal choice and i am obliged to respect it. I can only provide how my cousins mananged as they were faced with similar predicaments because of aunts being married to uncles from alladam swaroopam (neeleshwaram), puranattu swaroopam (kottayam of Malabar) and chirakkal kovilagam (kannur) in post matriliniality abolished society, it was therefore discussed whether they were varmas or nambiars by the family. We were all realistically practicing patriliniality but we all had virtual matrilinial identity due to the issue of sthanam title and pula-valaima observance. So we live patrilinially and our titles and customs go matrilinially and it was a predicament. Every family has its way of handling such issues and in my family they were given choice although strictly only if your mother is a malayala kshatriya and father equivalent or higher in ritual rank can the offspring claim the mothers title. This predicament did not exist before 1975 and it was an unsusual situation then. So decision was given to individual children as a compromise. Those who adopted the varma title underwent the upanayanam with the sanction of their fathers and Nambudiris agreed to it as there will not be anyone else to do antyeshti rituals of the father especially if the father had no ananthiravan (Nambudiris are flexible if you present predicaments along their logic, you have to tell them). However these children took up kshatriya identity and practice the shodasha samsakaram and forgo all ritualistic sthanam titles and rights to ooraima (hereditary trustee ship of family temples) inherited matrilinially. They also observed pula-valaima patrilinially and not matrilinially. Those who chose Nayar identity and hence sat-sudra could retain their claims to ooraima but has to identify themselves as sat-sudra and observe pula-valaima matrilinially even while living patrilinially. The choice was personal and was respected by all family members as long as the child did not take up the best of both worlds and maintained fidelity to one system given the unusual circumstances. Therefore at a personal level i am obliged to respect the choice of suresh varma if he has decided to take up the kshatriya identity . The greatest atrocity perpetrated on the nayar community by government legislation in the past is putting sthani nayars in unusual predicaments. However if one has the will one can survive it. In a nut shell one cannot take up kshatriya and nayar identity at the same time. --
Sanam001 (
talk)
17:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Have you read the PhD thesis link stated earlier ? Have you tried to find out about Kshatriya Sabha ? The truth is very evident. I dispute the content as long as there is pretentious Kshatriya peacocking which is incorrect and will contrinue to work towards maintaining wikipedia free of false information.Try to focus on the content and when a content dispute arises discuss logically assuming good faith of the opponent.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 17:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As stated earlier repeatedly i have suggested two neutral solutions. if you are not amenable to it, then i still have a dispute. Focus - Focus on the content- avoid POV pushing vis a vis kshatriya peacocking.Avoid indulging in co-ercing other users to join discussion on to support your ideology. Wiki strongly discourages it. remeber that i am not casuing edit wars. It takes two to create an edit war. So think upon the neutral solution and let me know the opinion.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 18:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Mr.Varma,a samantha kshatriya says he has Nair(nagavanshi) origin and the Nairs are his kshatriya brethren so the dispute ends there sanam,as far as kshatriya sabha in kerala is concerned,there is also something called the bunt sangha in kasaragod,these two communities have certain customs and traditions different hence their own organisations that doesn't mean they have separate organisations because they don't share common ancestry or do not have the same varna status of kshatriya.also sanam's opinions are strange i once pointed out to him(see my talk page archive and his for details) that travancore royals or the kolathiri don't have sambandam with namboodiris or do hiranyagarbha.he replies to me saying the travancore royal family are nothing but elevated sudras(sat sudra in his words) but now accepts the kshatriya status of Mr.Varma who has no namboodiri connection.point is proven mr sanam you are a hypocrite. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 05:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Anand,even I don't use my real identity(I prefer anonymity),hope u don't think the same about me as you do of sanam.:-). Linguisticgeek ( talk) 06:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Just a joke Anand,anyways one more thing what rubbish is sanam talking matrilineality has been abolished and Nairs have turned patrilineal.neither the N.S.S or the kshatriya sabha have passed any resolotuion to that effect.you can say nairs today have nuclear families,but every nair samantha kshatriya and a bunt still identifies with the tharavadu of their mothers(matrilineal) and attach great pride to it.Kinship,family relation and lineages among all the nagavanshis is still based on marumakkatayam though property inheritance today is based on the modern Hindu laws of Independent India where both son and daughters get equal share. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 06:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Primary statement: The point is a PhD thesis under the supervision of PJ cherian and various anthropological journal citations could not convince you. Similarly your citations and methods of citation fail to convince me.In addition two alternate dispute resolution solution options presented by me is non acceptable by you. Therefore the dispute is not resolved.
Peripheral statement: In case you donot know "The Joint Family System (Abolition) Act, 1975 by the Kerala State Legislature" stopped Marumakkathayam inheritance. However sthanis are still passing ritual title by moopumura matrilinially. Except in north malabar ( matrilinial virilocal), all others had matilinial uxorilocal which stopped after the enactment of law a.Pula Vaalaima is practiced matrilinially even now. People live patrilinially. In nut shell, nayars today live patrilinially with a concept of virual matrilinial family for assumption of title and practice of pula-valaima. The problem is more acute in North Malabar than other areas because sthanam dignities had becomee non-existent or symbolic mostly in the south due to early well established Devaswom boards. 1600 temples under 6 districts of Kerala are now under the jurisdiction of newly formed MDB from 2009 threatening the life style of erstwhile sthanis of Malabar who are predominantly Nayars.Anyways i had expected this ignorance because principal component analysis and clustering analysis of data show that identities who embark on pretentious kshatriya claims in a web-based platform correspond to ones with "distorted perception of rituals" and this was one of the component that captured maximaum variability distinguishing this subset from the subset of nayars who embark on such claims using non web-based platform for social mobility.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 09:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunate. Donot engage in content dispute on topics where academic knowledge is minimum. Dr. PJ cherian is an internationally acclaimed research historian and director of Kerala Council for Historical Research (KCHR).He guides several PhDs in Kerala history.
Check out: http://keralahistory.ac.in/news.htm-- Sanam001 ( talk) 10:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam please read Hindu Succession Act, 1956 thats how inheritance takes place in india.it's neither patrilineal or matrilineal and stop your OS and frankly can't make out what are u a student of history science or communist propaganda(i really can't make out). Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
and calling established wiki contributors as ignorant is desperate frankly and what social mobility,nairs are a forward caste. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Kerala Council of Historical Research. has been dissolved according to the link provided by sanam,lol an internationally acclaimed P.J.Cherian(Sanam's words,i don't believe) is a director of a defunct organisation. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:27, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
“ | I have been on the subject of the Nairs of Kerala for the last one decade and hence am some sort of authority on the same. At least better read than most Indians on the subject and at least most Nairs.
The origins of the Nairs are shrouded in mystery, but from most ancient accounts, cultures and customs, it can be safely inferred that the Nairs are Scythian of descent. The fact that recent tests indicate presence of the warrior gene 'dopamine' in them as in case of other Scythians attests to this fact. As a race they are distinct from the prevailing Aryan or Dravidian races of India. The classic chaturvarna as it exists in North India never applied in the South and hence any later caste classification is a work of fiction or more truly non-sense. Warfare was the chief occupation of the Nairs since the last two millenia plus. Most ancient works give a very credible account of the Nairs as the martial nobility of the land. Even the French Captain Mahe De La Bourdeannis, an accomplished warrior himself speaks very highly of the fighting spirit of the Nairs. The above is inspite of the fact that the French fleet was defeated by local Nairs and hence had to take refuge in modern day Tamil nadu. The most important fact attesting to their noble military virtues is the fact that for over two thousand years they were able to maintain the integrity and security of their land and culture unlike the rest of India. The only race to have decisively defeated the Nairs are the British. The British hence colluded with the neo-converts to suppress these inherently rebellious traditional warlords and succeeded. Most Indian history is communism inspired or secualrism inspired or worst of all; a thoughtless copy of English history. The British Army (not native infantry) performed poorly against the Nair warlords and the Nairs considered it below their dignity to serve under the British and hence most Nair history in Kerala and India is blanched out. Otherwise what explains grand celebrations of the 1857 revolt wherein a single intoxicated Mangal Pandey took no significant British casualty & yet is considered a national hero. The subsequent attack on the English residency was a military fiasco. Later reinforcements of the British and Sikh troops destroyed every ounce of Indian military muscle. The humiliation and crushing were complete. The Indian lossess were large and shameful. Victory, if any clearly was with the British. The Indians were impaled or hung and the females raped by rapacious native troops.Not much to celebrate about. Maybe, it would make more sense to look for celebrations down south where the Fussiladers and the other English highlanders fared poorly against Nair chieftans as also Moslem Moplahs. The toll the Nairs took on the British is much higher than any recorded in Hindoostan of those times. Indian culture is much more than hip gyrating dances and semi-nudes. Look around. You see it & yet miss it. Pity. Absolute Pity. |
” |
- 130.60.68.45 ( talk) 01:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
As stated earlier-these are the only two acceptable neutral solution. Otherwise the dispute exists .
1. Nayar is not a single entity with a single lineage therefore i am ready to compromise by individually not mentioning the barber, washer women but they are reduced just to serviles so the neutral definition should include "distinct lineages" with " distinctprofessions" and mention ruling elite, soldiers, peasants and serviles and mentioning “integration from migrants”. Eg:
Nayar, is a wide and general honorific appellation for a heterogenous matrilineal Hindu community, from Kerala, India, with a strong military tradition and several distinct elements professing different occupations. The Nayar caste encompasses several distinct un-connected lineages who, by hereditary occupation, included ruling feudal elite, retainers of land, soldiers , mercenaries, indoor and outdoor servile classes and integrated migrants from Canarese and Tamil speaking territories adjacent to Kerala
2. The use of the Sanskrit word "kshatriya" and claiming kshatriya status is incorrect and should be relaced by “strong martial tradition”. However as stated earlier i will not emphasise on the sat-sudra point as a comprimising neutral solution provided nayar and all nayar related pages are completely devoid of the word "kshatriya" and any sentences in whatsoever form infering a kshatriya peacocking. We should strive that wikipedia should not provide false information even if it cannot provide all information.
PS: The 1956 act was insufficient to solve the problems of property claims along the matrilineal descent in Kerala . Therefore the government passed THE KERALA JOINT HINDU FAMILY SYTEM (ABOLITION) ACT, 1975 to realistically effect matriliniaty and completely stop it as a property inheritance mode in Kerala. Refer http://kmmathew.com/art003h.html.
The burden of education - As for PJ Cherian
http://www.keralahistory.ac.in/ - institute page
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thirupuram/KCHR-receives-C-P-Matthens-papers-/articleshow/5094523.cms - News on PJ cherian -- Sanam001 ( talk) 10:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
To Mr.Sanam who dislikes established wikipedia editors whom he implies to be a collective mafia as evidently stated on his page.
second highest in ritual status of the four varnas, or social classes, of Hindu India, traditionally the military or ruling class.
The earliest Vedic texts listed the Kshatriya (holders of kshatra, or authority) as first in rank, then the Brahmans (priests and teachers of law), next the Vaishya (merchant-traders), and finally the Sudra (artisans and labourers). Movements of individuals and groups from one class to another, both upward and downward, were not uncommon; a rise in status even to the rank of Kshatriya was a recognized reward for outstanding service to the rulers of the day. The legend that the Kshatriya were destroyed by Parasurama, the sixth avatar of Vishnu, as a punishment for their tyranny is thought by some scholars to reflect a long struggle for supremacy between priests and rulers. Brahmanic texts such as the Manu-smrti (a book of Hindu law) and most other dharmashastras (works of jurisprudence) report a Brahman victory, but epic texts often offer a different account, and it is likely that in social reality rulers have usually ranked first. The persistent representation of deities (especially Vishnu, Krishna, and Rama) as rulers underscores the point, as does the elaborate series of ritual roles and privileges pertaining to kings through most of Hindu history. These largely buttress the image of a ruler as preserver of dharma (religious and moral law) and auspicious wealth. In modern times, the Kshatriya varna includes a broad class of caste groups, differing considerably in status and function but united by their claims to rulership, the pursuit of war, or the possession of land [2]. 90.46.32.29 ( talk) 23:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a general definition of what is a Kshatriya. The Nairs and this article respect this definition. 90.46.32.29 ( talk) 00:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Kindly place edits and comments only at the end to conserve cohesiveness for better understanding.
The definition of Nair in encyclopedia Britannica does not include the word “Kshatriya” in definition [3]. I will try to explain it from your handle of arguments: Here it is:
According to expert historians, anthropologists, sociologists and indologists and sanskrit scholars- A Kshatriya is simply a Varna-rank and this Sanskrit terminology confering legitimate claims to rulership can only be used to define members provided they practice specific rules of conduct (dharma) and importantly adhere to a personal life following all sixteen consecrations or tenets (Shodasha samskaram) while simultaneously being recognized/legitimized by the regulators of moral-codes (Brahmanas/priests) based on their jurisprudence of consideration of suitability . This is because the consideration of the suitability of a group to be defined by the Vedic terminology Kshatriya rank has two main outcomes, one having to do with responsibility, the other with privilege (jura gentium), and one concerning the perpetrators of crime and the other its victims. While judging this system we should bear in mind that we are certainly not dealing with a social model based on any notion of equality, but equally it is not simple notion based on privilege (jura gentium). Varnas (perhaps the most explosive topic in Hinduism ) derived their basis from the Purushasukta (Rig Veda) in dividing mankind into four socially separate interdependent categories/terminologies (Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas and Shudra). Varna system was essentially an inequal stratified vertical structure based on the principle of 'Division of Labour' and most importantly the suitability of the different groups for the different categories of occupations. Caste-fanatics manipulated this model to discriminate. Anthropologists observed that in contrast to other Brahmins , the Brahmins of Kerala and Tulunadu follow the canon of “Poorva mimamsa “ to enquire and interpret the nature of dharma based on close hermeneutics of the Vedas. The Poorva Mimamsa school traces the source of the knowledge of dharma (rules of conduct or duty) neither to sense-experience nor inference, but to verbal cognition according to Vedas. Now, the terminology “Shudra” included individuals who performed services or serviles and encompassed manual and agricultural labourers, artisans, masons, land-holders, mercenary-warriors and even some times Kings. Historians, sociologists and anthropologists observe that except Sudras, all the other three categories were called as Dwija or twice born. The meaning of twice born is that after a birth the three categories (Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas) are again born with the investiture with the sacred thread, the symbol of a child’s admittance to membership to the elite-category-dwija after which he is trained through subsequent samskara consecrations to attain maturity to handle his privilege. Neither Kerala or Tulu Brahmins who are custodians of jurisprudence of dharma in Kerala nor other Brahmin of India have recognized/legitimized nayar-bulk for consideration of suitability to be defined by the term Kshatriya as we Nayars are essentially a compilation of distinct lineages professing distinct occupations with a strong martial tradition but devoid of the spiritual training associated with Kshatra-dharma and most importantly we nayars donot maintain in our personal life Garbhadana samskara, Pumsavana samskara, Upanayana samskara, Samavartana samskara, Vivaha samskara (as per vedic rites), Panchamahayajna samskara, Vanaprastha samskara and thus does not adhere 7 out of 16 tenets. Niether have we Nayars been investituted with any identifying Vedic gotra or Pravara to artificially connect us to Vedic Gotra system of Dwijas. Now let us look at social mobility strategies of castes in India. In exceptional events of outstanding contributions to protection of Hindu-dharma (Rajputs) or as a compromise or deal during socio-political rivalry between Brahmin and non-Brahmin power structures, members of Sudra stock have been provorted as Kshatriya permanently (Neeleshwaram, Kolathiri, Cochin) or leased temporally (Thiruvathamkoor) in Kerala under the conditions that specific rules of conduct and importantly personal adherence to all sixteen consecrations or tenets be observed by them. In additions they had to shed their old identity and accept their new identity through practice and observance of these conducts (like a neaveux rich training his daughter in a finishing school for exorbitant fee to ensure an aristocratic husband). In other words, social mobility was not attained through pretentious propaganda but exploiting loop-holes because for pretentious propaganda if pursued damages social relationships irreversibly. We Nayars cannot use the terminology Kshatriya to describe ourselves and are defined under the category sat-shudra or clean serviles. Shudra as perceived by the Pan-Indian “great culture” interacts with social environment peculiar to Kerala history-the “little culture” to evolve the Sudra identity of nayar in a non derogatory sense and purely totemic. Historians observe that the malayalam sudras of which the better class are called nayars are the bulk of the respectable population-servants, land holders, farmers, mercenary soldiers, officials and even kings and are a remarkable group. Nayars have been always driven by maryada or Acharam based social rules. In addition the bulk of Nair community encompassed members that professed hereditarily laborours, small land-holders and mercenary soldiers as opposed to the minority fraction that were sudra-ruling elite (Samanthan). The primary definition is non representative of the bulk lineages and discriminative. A subset of my own community armed with inadequate information uses the web-based platform trying to supplant the natural dignity of my community as sat-sudra with shame and mis-represents information in an encyclopedia by peacocking with in-appropriate terminology to generate a POV nayar image. As stated earlier repeatedly i have suggested two neutral solutions [4]. if you are not amenable to it, then i still have a dispute. Focus on the content- avoid POV pushing vis a vis kshatriya peacocking. Avoid indulging in co-ercing other users to join discussion on to support your ideology. Wiki strongly discourages it. Remeber that i am not casuing edit wars- It takes two to create an edit war. So think upon the neutral solution assuming good faith and let me know the opinion on these two neutral solutions.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 17:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
There is already sufficient information with regards to links to research articles, thesis, and perspectives in these talk pages that these questions and issues are redundant. So kindly refer earlier discussions and your queries will be answered. In a discussion when two oppenents are unwilling to accept the reliability of each others citations then the phase of acheiving a dispute resolution through convincing one another has failed and passed. Then, the best way to acheive it is to see what is the middle point that is possible. I have already stated mine above in earlier posts. Kindly use this next phase to evaluate the realistic translatability.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 23:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I am a research student from the Warwick University specializing in Visual Cultures and History. I have done extensive research on the History, religion and Caste system in India. I can honestly state that Nayar of Kerala is a Kshatriya community according to the most widely recognized definition of the term "Kshatriya". Rajput of North India is considered to be the equivalent of Nayar in South India. These two communities are considered to be Kshatriya proper, although there are several other communities having their claims to Kshatriya status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.192.27 ( talk) 12:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Go through the middle points i have suggested (1) formal mediation of this dispute by experts who will judge my citations and yours without any prejuice (2) Avoid coccussing tendency of a community of users with well established agenda to mis-represent information on a web-based encyclopedia (3) The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So go through the middle solution I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article whether the disagreement is with 1 or 10. Remember that it takes more than one to cause an edit war and meat puppetry is strongly discouraged by wikipedia. Assuming good faith, and providing oppurtunity to re-think, you may take this time to go through the middle point i have suggested earlier.You may un-wittingly be part of, so check what cabal means-- Sanam001 ( talk) 04:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Nayars are not Kshatriyas, nor Vaishyas, nor Shudras. The caste is "Nayar". The Kerala Caste system is Nambudiri, Nayar, Ambalavasi, etc, etc. Apart from Nambudiris who were undisputed Brahmins, no other caste fits into the Chaturvarna system. Take the example of Ambalavasi, they are by no means Brahmins, and not Kshatriyas or anything else either. 121.214.117.235 ( talk) 22:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The practical translatability of the line of thought of user 121.214.117.235 is welcomed and may help in maintaining all community articles relating to Kerala castes free of varna terminology. I am not interested in emphasising varna terminology in nair or any nair related articles either. As stated earlier the neutral point that we could realistcally acheive would be (1) not to use either the term sudra or kshatriya in original nayar article, any of the articles of nayar sub-divisions like menon etc and the article nair subcastes (2) Remove the malayala sudra page in exchange for removing the sentences in malayala kshatriya page or samantha kshatriya page that may imply that nayars or nayar sub-divisions are known by Kshatriya terminology or nayars are kshatriya in any derivatory implying. A term - "a body politic with strong military tradition is acceptable in the original nair article and is suggested in exchange for removing varna terminology in the original nair article Sanam001 ( talk) 01:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a popular site and appears high in the search engine rankings. You might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that’s not the case. Specific users seems to have rejected the WP: NPOV and not used the time given to them in good faith for retropspection of the middel solution stated above. Sanam001 ( talk) 09:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that are all editors are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance- we must do our best to step back and characterize the content dispute with each new controversial point being stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views - it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides. Consensus is not always possible, but it should be your goal. You have rejected the WP: NPOV and not used the time given to you in good faith for retropspection of the middle solution Sanam001 ( talk) 12:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam are you seriously interested in editing wikipedia,because frankly all you seem to have done(i just checked your edit history) is put namboodiri pov in articles related to malayali communities nairs specifically and also in the ezhava article.apart from this you seem to have developed some personal enimity with Axxn and have been constantly harrasing him by reverting his edits.This isn't good faith and frankly you don't seem to listen to other people's views,not one but many users have cited your edits as POV.Why Don't you make a self introspection rather than implying established wikipedia contributors as some sort of mafia as evidently stated on your User page.Thank you Linguisticgeek ( talk) 13:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
My dispute is only for the content of nayar and nayar related articles as there has been a concerted effort to POV forking and not addrressing WP:NPOV. I am assuming that User: Anandks007 and others are all editors are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it.The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So go through the middle solution I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article . Assuming good faith, and providing oppurtunity to re-think, you may take this time to go through the middle point i have suggested earlier.--
Sanam001 (
talk) 04:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam001 (
talk)
14:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have been using Wikipedia as a source of information for the past many many years, but I never considered signing up or contributing to Wikipedia. But after watching what is going on here for the last few days, I am compelled to do so. I live outside India and therefore rely on wikipedia for information on topics in which I am not having enough knowledge. But after reading what Sanam001 writing here, it seems that wikipedia is fast becoming a paradise for spammers and extremists. I consider my self to be quite knowledgeable as far as history and culture of Kerala is considered, but the things Sanam001 writing here is beyond my understanding and commonsense. Sanam001 is posting completely false and biased information, and everyone seems to be agree that his info is unreliable. But unfortunately he is still continuing with his misinformed edits and I am at a lose to explain why. Even as a newbie I am able to understand the motives behind Sanam001's posts, but why the so called experienced posters here are unable to do so? Chandrakantha.Mannadiar ( talk) 15:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Focus on the NPOV points as suggested earlier Sanam001 ( talk) 16:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
User sanam has shown enormous evidence which shows nairs are not kshathriyas. The attitude of users like Axxn and suresh varma are ridiculous. People like Axxn, suresh varma etc are trying to write history according to their wish unfortunately for them there is enough historical documents which clearly shows nairs are not kshathriyas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.164.150.169 ( talk) 07:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
By sanam's own admission the present maharaja of travancore is a Shudra,Therefore by that logic he shouldn't be the guradian of the Padmanabha swami temple and does not have any claim on the throne.and please annoymous ips create your own wikipedia id before commenting would be so much better.the logic sanam puts forth is ridiculous.His Namboodiri POV is not just limited to Nairs he has stated that ezhava women were mistresses of British Men(just found out while while checking his edit history and couldn't stop laughing)and therefore some ezhavas are fair,now no serious student of anthrophology would make such ridiculous comments.Even Edgar Thurston suggests Nairs are a warrior class in his caste and tribes book,but sanam has stated before that they are not.and what evidences has sanam put forth,some theories not even peer reviewed by P.J.Cherian,the head of organisation that was once put out of business.And one more question Sanam agrees that Rajputs are kshatriyas while northern brahmins just like namboodiris say about nairs is that rajputs are shudras.so isn't this double standards.All i can conclude is that sanam has some serious grudge against the Nairs and most importantly the travancore royal family(Maybe because in Travancore the Namboodiris are not allowed to conduct ceremonies but Tulu speaking Embrandiri Brahmins perform most religious ceremonies) which brings me to another question is sanam a namboodiri,(which i suspect though no proof to claim so i will leave it there) and even if he is,there is no problem as far he does not push POV and contributes to wikipedia constructively.All contributors are welcome if they adhere to policies.
Linguisticgeek (
talk)
07:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments user 202.164.150.169. but unfortunately inadequacy on subject nature and content of certain individual users have remained the reason for not being able to acheive NPOV . For instance allmost every academic historian involved in research in Kerala society is aware of the work of P.J Cherian [6]. Well acclaimed Edgar thurston becomes colonial POV when it comes to "Kshatriya" peacocking issue but the same Edgar Thurston is used as Reference 63 when it is needed to show unwarranted casteism (see reference 63 of the Nair article and the context in which it is used !!!! Shocking !!!). In addition an NPOV suggestion to remove all varna terminology both nayar - both sudra and Kshatriya was not taken up.So the wider intention of POV forking is more than self evident. I have tried to convince many things from several perspectives however when good faith does not exist in response and williness to NPOV does not exist, the point of such engagements are far gone. Unethical practices such as meat puppetry seeing existing users taking up the cause of edit wars and sudden recruitment of IP 90.46.211.67 was also seen. Therefore a formal mediation for NPOV seems the next level, till then my dispute exists and i will exert my rights as any wikipedian to do maintain the authenticity of articles Sanam001 ( talk) 10:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC).
Firstly Sanam ur link is about a book by P.J.cherian and does not support your earlier claim that P.j.Cherian is a acclaimed historian.also using excessive bolds won't make your statements more trsutworthy.Using the word Kshatriya is not POV.It is legitimate sanskrit word for a warrior Hindu community which the nayars are.Some of Edgar thurston statements in the book are ofcourse colonial pov(only a blinded person would say they are not) but his works are largely unbiased unlike your views.secondly there is no dispute only you are involved in pov pushing (eg the travancore royal family are shudra,the children of a namboodiri and nair are kshatriya(the dharmashastras calls such progeny worse than shudras).and as far as i.p.s are concerned their views should not taken into consideration even i can accuse you that the ip from calicut which supports your POV views is your sock puppet. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 11:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
No more discussion is required on this talk page about kshatriya status and origin of nairs,it is proven that nairs are scythians and are a warrior caste.user sanam has been blocked for his disruptive edits.and one more thing people writing about samanta kshatriyas origin don't read history books.Samantha kshatriya atleast two families (the travancore and kolathiri) which do not intermarry with nambudiris have direct descent from Kulashekara Bunt dynasty from Tulu Nadu(Bunts are traditionally endogamous).whereas other samantha families have direct descent from the ordinary warrior nairs eg the cochin family.The Bunts claim only nagavanshi descent and so do most nair clans.it is only the cochin family who underwent hiranyagarbha who claim chandravashi descent(a lineage given by nambudiris) but even they are nagas.the fact is Bunts,Nairs,samantha kshatriya,the namboodiris as well as the Tuluva brahmins all are ethnically from the same stock scythians with aryan mixture from Ahichatra in Uttar pradesh according to genetic studies on these communities.This ethnic similarity is also evident from the fact that the namboodiri brahmins in Payyanur are also matrilineal like nairs and bunts which historians say is proof that nambudiri and tuluva brahmins might be warrior scythian naga clans who were elevated to brahmin status.Some nairs and Bunts might have mixture with previous ruling clans of the south precisely the Velirs(the highest of Vellalas) the title pillai among nairs and a bunt surname Ballal(corruption of Vellala) point towards that.But then again the Velirs have their own legends of north indian origins and claim to kshatriya status from chandravanshi clan(Might be a reason why the cochin royals call themselves chandravanshis).But anyways can today any community claim they have maintained their varna status.Brahmins were forbidden from travelling through the oceans,So many nambudiris in the gulf.according to the dharmashastra they have lost their varna.and one more thing in kaliyuga according to the dharmashastras no varna exists because dharma is lost.therefore by that definition all Hindus today and progeny of brahmins,kshatriya,vaishyas and shudras.but they themselves can't claim any varna because they don't do the prescribed duties to be within a varna. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 07:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Any Lead about the Ethnicity of Nairs?They,along with Syrian Christians and Some Mappila Muslims in calicut region does not looks like Dravidians.I've found a link where a DNA Test Proved Nairs have Middle Eastern Ancestory Found [2] ,Especially in Central and Northern Travancore.For eg: A Nair from Kottayam looks much fairer and large built than from Thrissur District(Ottapalam,,,etc).Is Nair ,a Term Collectively to Cover Different Races in kerala? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.33.48 ( talk) 22:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I have added a new image map for the front page image by adding a few more images. I think this is better than the previous image, as the captions can be avoided. If any more copyright free images are available, please replace some of the unimportant images and upload it again. Axxn ( talk) 07:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
dear friends ...in the main article on nairs, there is a reference of ram swarup joon's " history of jats" having mentioned the nagavanshi origin of the nairs... well i bought the book and read it thoroughly .... not only is there no mention of nairs anywhere in his book.... he claims jats are chandravanshis... so the message here is not to blindly take references... also the other books by jat historians, like lal pradaman singh and kishori lal faujdar need to be verified bfore we can include them in the references. Vivwiki ( talk) 19:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thanks, mr varma... for clarifying, any idea where the books by faujdar /lal pradaman singh( history of nagavansh- are available?...the book by ram sarup joon is by turns both informative and amateurish....he claims jats were founders of italy and scandinavia?!!!!.. jats are a vibrant and hardy race , but this may be taking it too far!!!!!! Vivwiki ( talk) 06:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
hi, axxn.... yes perhaps the reference of ram sarup joon... have gone through the book... nothing about nagavanshis or nairs...keep the faujdar and lal pradaman sing references, until proved fallacious 117.192.239.63 ( talk) 18:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
It is seen that there is a lot of discussion going on regarding whether Nair is Kshathriya or not. But in the article, it is written whith out doubt that Nair is kshatriya. My opinion is that such a claim should be removed from the article. It doesnt matter whether Nair is kshathriya or not. Such a claim, which is not sure, is not suitable for an encyclopedia. I know almost all nairs will prefer to be a Kshathriya. There are more important things. The spelling of Nair is corrupted from the beginning itself. According to the actual pronounciation, it is Nayar. A term used in poojakabahuvachana. Its singular is Nayan (in Malayalam). The etymological resemblence with Naga should also not be avoided. There were Naga worship in Kerala and Tamilnadu. Nagarcoil, in kanyakumari district of tamilnadu. Snnair ( talk) 05:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Let us give the details such as classificationof nair in separate section. Let the article be readable with. The first sentence itself was a mess - a biased one. Why are you reverting without any discussion? There are many sub-sects in Nairs which are not Khshathriyas. So a separate section is needed distinguishing this. It is necessary for the article to be neutral. If you are so curious with the purity of the artile read the Etymology section. From months it says in its very first sentence that "The word Nair lends itself to two etymological interpretations". But only one interpretation is given there.Where is the second one?. The second was there very long back. But the majority kshathriya-biased nair wikipedians removed it. However they forget to remove the first sentence of this section. The article is totally biased with inappropriate sections. A complete clean-up is required. The term "Malayala Kshathriya" surprised me a lot. Have you heard any where in kerala such a term in common use? Snnair ( talk) 06:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I REPEAT - NAIRS ARE NOT KSHATRIYAS
Let us go through some reliable resources:
Snnair ( talk) 11:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Axxn, Shannon1488 and Suresh.Varma.123. This has been discussed already and we've reached a conclusion. So there is no need to start a separate discussion. If you want, you can renew the discussion here. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar ( talk) 15:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Dear Johnuniq, thank you for the information regarding edit war in Nair page. In that page it is stated that Nairs are Malayala Kshatriyas. The terminology Malayala Kshatriya itself is a new one, you may find it only in wikipedia. Not in Britannica or other encyclopedias. The term Malayala Kshatriya itslef is fake. So I want to edit it. I tried to make the article neutral by stating that this is only a claim. But it got reverted soon. I asked a many times to the user Anand Krishnan to discuss on this matter. But without any discussion, he continued reverting. Now I noticed that he had maid the a comment in your talk page saying that he will be staying out of the article for the next 24 hours. Let the other users give their opinion and handle this issue. But the major problem is that a majority of editors from Kerala are nairs, and they will prefer the Kshatriya status (eventhough it has no meaning now a days). The truth is far behind than the opinion of majority. A nair can claim Kshathriya status because of his martial history. But all nairs are not Kshatriyas. There are different sub-sects which cannot claim such a status. All these factors should be mentioned in the article. The references provided in the article are also biased ones. Even if I make a discussion, the majority can quote too many such references and argue. Unless I get succeed the falls message will remain in the article (It will be very difficult to get a consensus among the editors of nair page). Is that you want? Presently the article is not neutral. What one can do in such a situation? Should we adopt the wish/opinion of a majority as truth? I wish to proceed with my editing. Please give reply in my talk page. Thank you. Snnair ( talk) 09:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I would like to summarize a few things before moving this section to the Nair talk page.
There fore these are my suggestions to User:X -
Thanks. Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 15:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Since Ezhavas are targeting this article without any provocation, I'd suggest adding the following facts to the Ezhava article:
"in the presence of a Namboodiri (Brahmin) an Ezhava ( an untouchable ) had to stand 36 feet away and in the presence of a Nair (Kshatriya) he had to stand 24 feet away" - Google Ebook 1
If you doubt about the validity of this reference, you can search in the net about Dr. K.P. Bhagat. He was the former principal of the Hislop Education Society. Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 02:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll give more references later. Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 02:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Kerlolpathi mentions the invasion of Kerala by a Banapperumal or Palli Banapperumal, from Karnataka, the brother of ruler of Tulunadu Kavirasa Singhan. According to Keralolpathi this Banapperumal was send by Krishnaraya the Aryan king ( [[Rashtrakuta] Krishna III] with a huge Nair army three and half lakh strong. This Banapperumal assumed the title Cherman Perumal and became the ruler of Ezhimala whose descendents became the Kolathiris. According to this legend the arrival of Nairs in Kerala could be 960 AD when Krishna invaded Kerala and occupied Chitrakoodam mentioned in Keralolpathi. Nativedravidan ( talk) 15:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Native dravidians are vaanaperummals rather than Banapperumal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.30.208 ( talk) 11:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
There is evidence for existence of Nairs in the time of Adi Shankaracharya (7th century), in fact it was Adi Shankaracharya who made the 64 Anacharams, which include that only the eldest Nambudiri can marry a Brahmin, and also that Nairs shall perform funeral rites for their maternal uncles. 121.214.135.4 ( talk) 01:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Nairs are the most important caste of Kerala, yet this page is really hopeless, nobody can understand what is written, all writers are trying to humiliate the caste, nothing more, contains lot of irreleant info such as what they eat, how they dress etc. Actually does it in anyway differentiate from other castes of Kerala? Are Nairs Brahmins? Then who were Varmas? Were all Nairs of aristocratic and martial lineage, then why Jenmis and Soldiers were Nairs? Were Chekavars Nairs or Sudras? If Sudras, then Dalits are also martial caste. Were Nairs forward castes, then why were they allowed to enter Sudra houses? As per certain theory in Kerala only Namboodiris, Nairs and Vermas were considered to have a caste, others were casteless i.e. Shudras (including most of Iyers and its various sub castes). Please try to give info in NPOV format neatly I am trying to do that Sarvagyana guru ( talk) 18:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
A user has stated that Nairs are Kshatriyas of Nagvanshi order and he has sourced this info from follwing source and it is as follows. Ram Swarup Joon: History of the Jats, Rohtak, India (1938, 1967), Kishori Lal Faujdar: Uttar Pradesh ke Madhyakalin Jatvansh aur Rajya, Jat Samaj, Monthly Magazine, Agra, September-October 1999. It is quite obvious that most of the Kings in Kerala were Nairs. Raja Ravi Varma, Moolam Thirunal Maharajah, Balarama Varma Avittam Thirunal, Chithira Thirunal Balarama Varma, Moolam Thirunal Maharajah were Brahmins and not Nairs. Only relation they had with Nairs was through Sambandam. Please give reputed and verified reference materials and don't make Wikipedia a source of propaganda. Sarvagyana guru ( talk) 06:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no need to discuss more about chaturvarnya here. Even I’ve not heard anything like Nagavanshi Kshathriya and that word is superfluous. At the same time, since Namboothiris have classified someone including other Brahmins as ‘Sudra’, doesn’t mean that they are indeed Sudras. No one would doubt by any yardstick that Nairs were not the Kshathriya caste by the definition of the word ‘Kshathriya’. However, since a few of the Nairs are not Aryans and since ‘Kshathriya’ is an Aryan term they may not fall into that category. Nairs were a heterogeneous group which included servants also, but most of them were warriors and the word ‘Nair’ was synonym to ‘warrior’ in ancient kerala. The mahouts, barbers were all a minority (who still are classified as ‘vilakithala’ and are OBCs) hence there is no question of including them in this category of Nairs. The definition of Nairs in the encyclopedia britianica is “Hindu Caste of the Indian State of Kerala. Before the British conquest i.e. 1792, the region contained small feudal Kingdoms in each of which the royal and noble lineages, the militia and most land managers were drawn from Nairs and related caste. During British rule, Nairs became prominent in position, Government Service, Medicine, Education and Law.” ..And this is what Robin Jaffery (who is probably the most profound writer on this caste in recent years) had to say about Nairs “Nairs are the Savarna Hindus who constituted the warriors, landed gentry and yeoman of Kerala. Nayars are the second largest and one of the most important section of the society of Kerala. They were the lords of the country and guardian of public weal. ” All these definitions go to say that most of the Nairs were indeed on the upper crest of the society and were warriors and kings. Hence there is no doubt about their role in the social system. They were a martial class and are a forward caste anywhere in India. So you could go by any of the above definitions and there is no need to add the word ‘Kshathriya’ in the page. Also putting some hard facts in the introduction is not something any community would encourage and that is natural. The details of subcastes can be put in the subcaste section and not in the introduction.
The Scythian theory is very valid and definitely a major segment of Nairs have a different appearance compared to other Hindus of Kerala like Ezhavas and other OBC/SC/ST sections. I know many instances where people outside Kerala thought Nairs were indeed from Northern part of india. A major chunk of them could be Nagas who mixed with the Scythian clans. This seem to be a strong possibility. By looks, Nairs (and Bunts) stand apart from all other castes of South India including even the other forward castes.. Keraleeyan —Preceding undated comment added 06:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC).
The Nairs are a caste with martial tradition but they were Considered as Brahmins, The fact is Clear from many books for eg;
1. Malabar manual By william Logan
2. Castes and tribes of southern India by Edgar Thurston etc
There are many more books other than the above mentioned apart from many reports and jounnels like
1. Cochin census Report 1901
2. Pceedings of the church missonary society for africa and the east etc
which shows the status of nairs as Brahmins. so at least in the interest of History dont Show false claims in the main page —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.172.15.192 (
talk)
08:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Koyas of Malabar were originally Nairs belonging to the royal caste of Malabar. This should be added to the article. See "Koyas of Calicut: a distinctive matrilineal social group" (P.M. Shiyaali Koya, Professor of Sociology, retd, Zamorins Guruvayurappan College) Yusuf.Abdullah ( talk) 19:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
KOYAS ARE DESENDENTS OF MUKKUVAS=FISHER MEN. Zmorian a Nair king had a large navy but nairs didnt go to sea since it was considered as a taboo ancient time. zamorian could not use mukkuvas to man his navy because they were considered very low in the caste hirarchy hense for the pourpose os manning his navy there where orders of zamorian like one or two male children of every mukkuva(fisher men)parents should be brought up as mappila these people are the main ansisters of Koyas. Even now after many koyas going to gulf and becoming rich if You go to calicut fish market you can see koyas dominating there and also in the fishing industry in general. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.172.115.69 (
talk)
10:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
statistics show that during 1820 and 1880 more than 50 percent of people belonging to cheruma and pulaya camunity converted to islam that means more than 10 percent of the total population which means more than 25 percent of muslim genes who constitute 40 percent of calicut population are from cheruma and pulaya. but still they are mainly decendents of fishermen even though they have arab, cheruma, pulaya genes and koyas still live near costal areas of malabar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.115.69 ( talk) 10:17, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It is recorded in many history books that the Mukuva families used to convert to Islam and become part of the Zamorin’s navy. But nowhere it is stated that they are the Koyas. It may not be true as most of such converts had the title ‘Marikkar’ and not ‘Koya’. It may be noted that ‘Kunjali Marikkar’ was the chief of Zamorin’s navy. It is also mentioned in certain books that the Koyas were in fact the Nair nobles who got converted during Tipu’s onslaught. Though Tipu considered Nairs as his Enemy no.1, he was convinced that without Nair support he can’t do anything in Malabar. For this he made an offer to all Nairs who convert, that their arms and status will be reinstated and also offered them the title ‘Koya’, to recognize the proud lot. Malabar Manual says that many nobles accepted this offer. The matrilineal family structure of the Koyas gives credence to this theory. Also many Nairs would have got converted along with the Arakkal clan of Kannur. Hyder Ali after capturing north Malabar converted and enslaved many Nair soldiers, Shaikh Ayaaz khan, the fieriest and noblest among Hyder’s chieftains was a such a Nair convert. Logan says Hyder preferred Ayaaz Khan as his successor ahead of own son Tipu. However, Malabar Muslims are predominantly dalit converts, the dalit presence in Malappuram and Calicut is the lowest in the state, most of them got converted during the mapilah mutiny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.20 ( talk) 06:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Many koyas claim to be the decendants of nairs and arabs but Koyas are not a caste like nairs. mappilas marry with out looking wheather the bride or groom is a marrikar or a koya or a fisher man muslim but the case is different regarding Thangal Who are considered desendants of arabs with native women(wemen could be from any caste)thangal marry thangal only (but thangals of kerala dont recognise thangal of lakshadweep). Hence you can claim koyas are desendents of nairs, mukkuvas and dalitts just like any other mappila and majority of their ansisters were mukkuvas and dalits .Thangals where and are rich mappilas but most of the mappilas incuding koyas where poor living in poverty untill the gulf money started folwing to calicut. And nobody knows where these decendent of dalits converts and mukkuva converts are gone even though they constitute the major gene pool among mappilas because every mappilla claim including muslim writers claim mappilas to be the decendants of arabs or nair only the various commissions appointed by the govenment says mappilas including koyas are mainly coverts of dalits and backward classes and reservation should be increased in jobs and schools and for information sake even marrikar claim that they are decendents of arabs not mukkuvas. Tippu coverted not just nairs but people belongiing to every hindu caste and may be mappilas starting imitating nair coustum just like ezhavas did to gain respect because zamorians army mainly consists of nairs.and also for information Koyas are OBC in the reservation list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.112.175 ( talk) 07:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
If you dont know any koyya selling fish take a walk in to ANY FISH MARKET in calicut ANY DAY and just see your self or you just go to any fishing harbor or some thing like that in calicut you will see the reality just explain where the mukkuvas converts who where given high position and status in the zamorians navy are gone they were also rich had high position in the socity as generals and soldiers and leaders of the muslim population. May be they now call themselve decendants of nairs not the decendants of mukkuvas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.128.136 ( talk) 07:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
ANCIENT TIME WHEN NAIR LADIES WERE OUT CASTED THEY WERE GIVEN AWAY TO MUKKUVAS IN THAT SENSE MANY MUKKUVAS COULD CLAIM TO BE THE DECENDANTS OF NAIRS JUST LIKE OBC KOYAS. KOYAS LIKE MUKKUVAS MAY HAVE NAIR ANSISTERS BUT MAJORITY OF THEIR ANSISTERS ARE MUKKUVAS AND DALITS. KOYAS MARRY ANY MUSLIM SAY MARRIKAR OR FISHER MEN MUSLIMS FOR GENERATION AND YOU CLAIM THEY ARE NAIR CONVERTS. DONT JUST DO TRACING(propaganda trcing for gaining respect) TO NAIR THARAVADS DO SOME TRACING OF THE MAJORITY ANSISTERS TO MUKKUVA HOUSE OF CALICUT AND ANOTHER MAJOR GROUP OF ANSISTERS TO DALIT HUTS OF MALABAR.
EACH AND EVERY MAPPILA OF MALABAR WHEATER KOYA OR MARRIKAR OR FISHER MAN MAPPILA DO TRACING(propaganda to gain respect) TO NAIR THARAVAD OR TO ARABS. KOYAS JUST LIKE MARIKAR SELLS FISH IN EVERY FISH MARKET OF CALICUT. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.172.133.153 (
talk)
07:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Despite my best efforts to destroy the article about Nairs, I am disappointed that I could not convince some people to avoid reverting the vandalisms, Removing sourced data that is pro-Nair. I just wanted this article to be used for Marxist propaganda, but unfortunately this article contains pro-Hindu information only gibberish stating that why Nairs should be considered the protectors of Hinduism in Kerala.
Let people who think they love extremist Hindu community spoil this article further. This page is like VHP propaganda. (If anybody has cared to read, as per Hindus all inventions and worthwhile discoveries have been made by Hindu scientists and others have just copied from them. Such as whole world knows radio was invented by Marconi but as per Hindus it is Lord Vishnu. In Hindu textbooks there is no Raman Effect, they claim it was first discovered by Hindus).
All the best. Lal Salam. Down with Hinduism —Preceding talk • contribs) 14:18, 27 August 2009
Some sections was deleted by an Ip user/unconfirmed user....Pls do not spoil the article....
ARUNKUMAR P.R Talk 08:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Some user is adding polemic text which may inflammate religious animosities, under the subtitle: Religion. What that person has added has no approved reference value. Anything written in a book or article by religious fanatics should not be included in an objective place like Wikipedia. Nairs are a brave and cosmopolitan group. This kind of attitude is not Nair-like. This person with a communal agenda should be debarred from changing text to suit his views. user:som123
The fanatic user who is bent upon making communal disharmony is adding non-sensical materials under the subhead: Religion. Again I have deleted the unfortunate comments. Nairs are proud Hindus who want the pristine glory of Hinduism and India to be upheld. This person is totally biased and he should be debarred from using the Wikipedia for his own communal and divisive agenda. Please take note of this; otherwise these intrusions are to be reported. Nov 9, 2009 user:som123 —Preceding undated comment added 04:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC).
I am not a communist or Marxist as Anandks007 alleges. But I do not want this Nair page to be a launching pad for Nair-Christian or Nair-Muslim polemics. This is unhealthy practice which can never be tolerated. The references given are not well-accepted. Anything which is printed and published as a book is not to be considered the truth. The accepted writings which are authenticated by university-approved research only can be considered as refernces. There is no authentic report on the number of Nairs killed by Muslims or on the number of Muslims killed by Nairs. So we cannot accept that account in any case. Anandks007 has a hidden agenda. When I say the main protoganists of the Communist parties are Nairs, it is historically true. When Mannathu Padmanabhan's leadership of the Vimochana Samaram is highlighted, it is true historically. But a casual comment of P. Govinda Pillai is quoted, it is not worthy to be added in Wikipedia, since many such allegations and counter -allegations are rampant and all these cannot ber included in this Wikipage of Nair.
About the voting pattern as quoted in the Hindu cannot become part of the Wikipedia, since all such surveys and opinion polls have no scientific value. So I have done the right thing in deleting the Opinion Poll Part. Truth can be always added; but not partisan views and agendas. Nairs are proud social reformers and they fought for the under-privileged people at all times. They were the leaders in all such activities. They were against all divisive agendas. We are proud that Congress Party, Communist Parties, the Socialist Parties and the Bharatiya janata Party are all initiated by Nair leaders. == Som123 ( talk) 11:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The original definition of Nairs in Encyclopedia Britanica doesn't include the words "like maarans" and has been added by some edotors. This is wrong info as Marars even today are considered as a different social group. They were confined to temples and never ruled or fought wars. They have their own 'Marar Samajam' and are ambalavasis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.9.13.137 ( talk) 04:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Marar may be considered same in the caste hierarchy but they are not Nairs and they different in the socio-functional aspects which is given in the definition of Nairs.. Are we not restricting the Nair page to the ‘malayala kshathriya’ group of Nairs..? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.161.106 ( talk) 07:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
"In course of time a number of occupational castes sought their way in to the Nayars by proversion, but they could only be successful nominally. They are: Champukotti (copper smith), Chendakotti or Marar (drummer), Kalamkotti (potter), Chakkala (oil monger), Pallichan (palanquin bearers), Chitikan (performers of obsequies) etc. Even the Veluthedan (washerman) and the Vilakkithalavan (barber) staked their claims for being Nayars. Marriages between the first five divisions (Kiryathil, Illathu, Swaroopathil, Padamangalakkar & Tamilpadakkar) and the occupational groups endeavouring to provert themselves to be Nayars are forbidden. " Axxn ( talk) 07:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Kshatriyas other than some subdivisions of Rajputs never wear sacred thread. This is the case with most of the Pahari Rajputs, Marathas, Meiteis, Chhetris, Gorkhas, Khatris.etc. Even the Cochin Maharajah, who is the topmost "Samanta Kshatriya" in Kerala was not recognized as a true Kshatriya by Azhvanchery Thamprakkal. This is because some sections of Namboothiris believe that Kshatriya race became extinct during Treta Yuga. Nairs were never classified according to the fourfold varna system before 17th century. The varna system in Kerala was different. There were only 3 varnas: Namboothiri, Savarna and Avarna. Most of the works made by Indian authors during 17th and 18th century classifies Nair as Kshatriya. However the ruling class reverted the varna system to the four fold one during the census of 1836 and continued it after that. Since the varna classification is neither clear, nor undisputed in Kerala, the original varna status should be used for Nairs, who are the descendants of Nagvanshi Kshatriyas who migrated to Kerala from Ahikshetra (Although Ram Swarup John specifically mentions only the Kiryathil and Nambiar subcastes, the remaining 3 top most ranks should be included as they are also same ethnically). As pointed out by several British sociologists and anthropologists like Fuller and Logan, the caste definition during census was modified to suit the interests of the ruling elite. For example see this. Of the historical records which actually classify Nairs as Kshatriya, some are the following:
122.177.196.222 ( talk) 15:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
See these:
Can any one comment if the the Assyrian name Nairi (KUR.KUR Na-i-ri, also Na-'i-ru) for a region / people of eastern Anatolia, roughly corresponding to the modern Van and Hakkâri provinces of Turkey. During the Bronze Age collapse (13th to 12th centuries BC), tribes settling in this region were considered a force strong enough to contend with both Assyria. The Nairi was thought to be incorporated into Urartu during the 10th century BC.
Did they have any connection with the present day nairs? The last name Nair is still common in Turkey and Armenia see Nairi_(Armenian_usages). comment added by 98.217.129.62 ( talk) 06:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Genetic testing has shown that the original Nairs consist of gene type R1a strain M17 ( See here). The M17 gene is the Mediterranean type. The M17 gene is believed to have originated from Eastern Europe. Turkey is in Eastern Europe. -- Zero.vishnu ( talk) 12:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Does´nt Nayars of Malabar deserve a subsection ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Nairs of Malabar have always regarded themselves different from the bulk of nayars in other parts of Kerala and have several unique customs and practices. Please read anthropologists and historians such as Kathleen Glough and Fawcett.
Like i said before nairs of malabar are a little bit more like bunts thats it.no sub section required. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
hmm..strange, after reading much about nayars, i've not heard anything like nayars of malabar having different customs as of nairs from other areas. In ancient terms, nairs of malabar is referred generally as Nairs of entire kerala as most of the travellers mentioned Kerala as Malabar (Kerala is a term that came up in 1950s.) So what has been mentioned could be that the nairs of malabar (kerala) has common customes as that of bunts of tulunadu. Also as a Nair with relatives across kasargode to kanyakumari, i haven't noticed any difference in the customs or rituals w.r.t marriage, death etc except for certain trivial observations like Nairs of nothern districts eating non-veg during festivals while travancore and kochi areas observe strict vegetarian menu during festivals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.188.23 ( talk) 05:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
This trivial discussion started by by sanam does not require anymore space.Northern nayars do have certain customs especially related to marriage ones a little different from nairs in the south and anand stating they consume beef is something i have never seen or heard.eating beef and pork is both sin and drinking of alcohol traditionally prohibited among all nairs,bunts and the tulu jains.though nowadays in india people can do wahtever they want.skin colour debate is also a bit nonsensical there are few relatively darker nairs and even bunts in all parts where they inhabit(north south(kerala) and tulu nadu).it is not region specific.what makes nairs and bunts different from other communities is south india is their sharp feautures parrot like nose,silky hair and presence of blue and green iris in many individuals right from travancore uptil kundapura in karnataka.that is what written in the books by foreign observers of india especially during the british india time.many genetic studies also say that these communities are similar to the Mediterranean race subsection of caucasians. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 08:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
If someone thinks that they are superior nairs, it is pure ignorance and height of rigidity. God Save them. Nairs who nurture such thoughts are not the Nairs whom the world admires. Nairs are admired for their high intellect and magnanimity; they make the world feel that they are superiors rather than claiming superiority for talking in a specific accent or for being born a few miles towards this side or even worse, for being born to a Nambuthiri. Come on guys, grow up. My interest in this page is purely an enthusiasm to know the past, I don't carry this forward, the world is ever evolving and be part of the change than to clinch and cosset in the dead past. For god’s sake, don’t initiate or feed such crap discussions anymore.. Keraleeyan —Preceding undated comment added 05:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC).
There should be more information about Nair landlord families such as the Vengayil Nayanars who owned 200,000 acres (more than the Chirakkal Raja) and the Kalliat Jenmi who had 36,779 acres. [1] This is not to say the list of every Nair tharavad should be made, but those such as Vengayil, Kalliat and other major landlord families should be included (provided there is a valid reference). 124.180.148.29 ( talk) 01:11, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
you can't mention all the landlord families in this article,before the landforms most land was with the nairs or nambis.you can't mention every family that held land.i suggest keep it to royalty and chieftain warriors. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 05:25, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Just letting you all know, that a user has started an article Ezhavathy which describes a fictional caste of Brahmins in Kerala known as Ezhavathy. Please help in getting this article deleted by commenting on its deletion page. Thankyou. 121.214.112.101 ( talk) 10:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Ezhavathy, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ezhavathy. Thank you.
Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Axxn ( talk) 04:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
To be anthroplogically, culturally and socially correct one must include a definition of Nayar that encompasses from Kiriyathil sub-division to the Valinjan Nair. Wikipedia is a source of information that we must strive to use language that avoids, class-prejudice, names dropping and peacock terms. Whether a person is a Kiriyattil nayar like Adiyodi or a "thana" (low) nair like Valinjan Nair, it can all be mentioned under structure of Nayar society. The primary definition should be all inclusive and anthropologically accurate. I sincerely request members involved in maintaing this article to help in this endeavour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The E. thurston, kathleen glough, Fawcett and all anthropologists and historians note that nayar is a general term applied to lineages professing a wide range of professions. It would be inaccurate to under represent any section of the society in the umbrella definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 16:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Kindly read anthropologists and historians Edgar Thurston provides the most exhaustive definition of south Indian communities. Kathleen glough represents a social scientis who has studied and appreciated nayar customs most exhaustively . Fawcett and Logan represent individuals who has documented nayars meticulously, Refer these studies before engaging in socially-misrepresenting ego satisfying chauvinism. For instance refer how edgar Thurston refers to Nayars. http://www.archive.org/details/castestribesofso05thuruoft Everybody accepts nayars have a military history however that is not all nayars are , the chakkala are as much a nayar as a nambiar is these are only stratification within the structure of the nayar society
Here is the link to the interna structure by fuller and read it yourself in case you are falsely claiming you have read it http://www.jstor.org/pss/3629883
He clearly describes the broadness of the nair occupational categories —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 16:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
"He clearly describes the broadness of the nair occupational categories" explain it here. Axxn ( talk) 16:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC) Read the entire article you will understand. Wikipedia should be a source of information that is accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Kindly refer avoid ego satisfying definitions and be anthropologicallyaccurate when you define nayars. Donot engage in edit wars for personalsatisfaction strive to keep Wikipedia a unprejudiced objective source ofinformation. Read CJ fuller completely . Donot claim to have read it when youhave´nt.Nayars have a broad range of occupations and constitute a broad rangeof racial admixture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Check out on Tamil padam nayars you will understand I quote fuller in internal structure of nayar caste Some of the latter were subdivisions of Nayars residing outside Malabar, for only 128 were enumerated in Malabar itself (Census 1891e:380). ... with their traditional occupations in order of rank: (1) Kiriyam; (2) Illam; (3) Svarupam; (4) Padamangalam; (5) Tamil Padam; (6) ...." so read articles
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sanam001 (
talk •
contribs)
17:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Anandksoo7 and a few others seem to be interested in maintaining inaccurate and incomprehensive definition of nayars and promoting and maintaining anthropologically inaccurate defenitions. The present definition of nayars in incomprehensive and inadequate and does not representative of the entire nayar society. I repeat Kindly read the articles of all the above mentioned authors and make the definition as comprehensive as possible. He and a few others has been engaging in similar behavior in the menon article, Samanthan Nair article etc. donot engage in edit wars for the purpose of ego-satisfaction.Every historian and anthropologist will agree "Nayars are a broad community encompassing lineages with several professions" and that "nairs have a military history and that many ruling elites have been derived from the nayar stock". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Please read census reports of Kerala before and your answers for your questions will come by itself. Kindly refer the communities that are presently recognized by the state government as Nayar. This has been the case before and even today it is only the dynamics within the heirarchy of nayar clans to push "fringe subdivisions" in fuller´s language. So keep the discussion focuused, Nayars represent a wide range of occupations and caste admixture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar E. Kathleen Gough
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2844041
See first page last paragraph —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 17:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The reference you have provided here is of 1952. And it is full of errors. Gough describes Nairs as a "Hindu caste of landholders with a matrilineal kinship system" and not as a group of barbers and fishermen as you are claiming here. Also no one is blind here. You don't need to use the bold characters. Axxn ( talk) 03:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
See page 2 of your reference (Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar by Gough). She states that not much is known about the lower subcastes and her article deals only with the major Nair subcastes, i.e which are martial castes. Also see the Map given in page 19, which is titled: "The Nayar Kingdoms of the Malabar Coast", in which a map of the local kingdoms are given. Kolattunad, Kottayam, Kadattunad, Kurumbranad, Zamorin's Kingdom, Walluvand, Palghat, Cochin and Travancore are labelled as "Nayar Kingdoms" by Gough, although out of these kingdoms Kolattunad, Kottayam and Cochin are described by majority of the scholars as Non-Nayar or having doubtful Nayar origin.
The conclusions can be made is that Gough is not aware of the relation between the non-Nayar lower castes and wasn't aware of their names. Your reference can't be taken as a serious study. Axxn ( talk) 03:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Kindly donot make a fool of yourself by stating that anthropologist and historians like K.glough and Fuller cannot be taken as a serious study.
Reference-1 Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar E. Kathleen Gough
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2844041
In essence nobody refutes that the ruling elite of nads were higher sub-divisions of nairs or Samantha Kshatriya who derive their ancestry from sudra stock. However it is the proportion of nayars that were ruling elite and nayars that had other professions that is the issue to be considered while framing a definition for nayars. Nayars professed wide variety of professions.To be precise, what K.Glough notes is that not much is known about the traditional kinship among servant classes of nayars and not that they are not recognized as Nayars. Also kindly read properly maintaining your objectivity and not taking things too personal . See page 2 para 1 on left where she gives the distribution frequency of nayar profession based sub-clans in a representative proportion. Now you will understand that the proportion of lineages that are retainers , oil-mongerers , pot makers or funeral priests are in proportions higher than the chiefly lineages and that mutual ritual ranking between is clear (not unequivocal) .
Reference -2 The Internal Structure of the Nayar Caste, CJ Fuller
“eighteen Nayar subdivisions are listed (with their traditional occupations) in order of rank……………………”
Akattu charna nayars (clerks, domestics and scribes) , Urali nayars/ Maniyani (masons) , Pallichan (palanquin bearer), Chembu-kotti (copper-smith), Chakkala nayar, Vattakadu nayar (oil mongerer), Vilakkithala nayar (barber), Veluthedathu nair (Washer-man), Attikurisssi nayar (funeral priests) are all nayar castes only different in their ritualistic ranking from the ruling elite or mercenary/soldier ranks. Do not overlook these professional divisions and ego-based claim that all nayars are ruling elite. It is anthropologically and historically incorrect. Kindly read documents and research articles more objectively.
Again you seem to be ignorant about NSS. Although many divisions of nayars are lower ritual rank , the NSS also accepts them as nayars. You can contact the following members of NSS.
Sri.P.V.Neelakanta Pillai, Advocate
President
Nalanda, Kottiyode, Attingla-P.O.,
Thiruvananthapuram District.
Phone 0470-2622368 (Residence), 0470-2622248 (Office)
Narayana Panicker.P.K., General Secretary
Lekshmyvilas Bunglow,
Vazhappally, Changanassery.
Phone:0481-24220330 (Residence), 0481-2410566 (Office)
3. In essence, nayars used to profess a wide variety of professions and requires that this fact is emcompassed to keep the primary description generic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 09:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
dear mr varma... thanks for such a prompt reply to my query!... that explains the diversity among nairs especially the north malabar variety, but one doubt still lingers.. that of GSB'S assimilating into nairs ... as far as i know they have been a fairly closed community !.. without much inclination to absorb into a dominant community like nairs...regards vivviki 117.192.224.124 ( talk) 08:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
This is for mr suresh varma..... you have written about castes like GSB'S and pisharody's assuming the title 'nair' or pillai' as well as marathas, bunts and arya vaishyas...but is there any reference for this statement.... kindly reply... vivwiki.. Vivwiki ( talk) 21:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Dispute : Nayar is an umbrella term for a community that traditionally profess different occupations and encompasses several distinct un-connected lineages with different hereditary occupation. This has to be there in primary description and not peacock terms.
We should strive to keep Information about a community in an open source information database like Wikipedia to be based on the definition of social scientists and not based on what as a few individuals would like to portray it as.
1. First , when social scientists and respective community representative organizations (NSS: contacting NSS personnel telephonically is oftent the fastest and direct procedure to get confirmation of facts) both unanimously confirm that they are ranks within the nayar class, individual ego based efforts to portray nayar identity as only ruling elite becomes incorrect and a peacock tendency of certain users.
Yes, they do
2. Second, even if we forget Vilakkithala , Chakkala etc for a moment. The clerks, scribes, domestics and external servants within royal and nambudiri household (charna nayars), migrated (Tamil padam) are all classes of nayars with middle ritual rank within the nayar society and their professions are not mentioned too in the present generic definition .Even the divisions like illathu and swaroopathil are domestic serviles who later became retainer-class. The servile classes form the bulk of nayar identity. According to the 1891 Travancore census 18.92% of the total population were classified as Nair “excluding Samanthan Nair” and in 1941 it was 17.53%. In Travancore in 1931, the Samanthan Nair population was only 97. In Cochin in 1931, the populations was only 571 (0.05%). In Malabar in 1931, the Samanthan Nair population was only 0.15%. So overlooking the professions of a large proportion of the nayar society as domestic serviles and mercenaries and trying to represent the image of the entire nayar society only as ruling elite and aristocracy is characteristically peacock.
Charna nairs fall into two categories Akattu and Purattu who inside and outside attendant serviles of royal households. Menon (an akattu charna nair) is a typical example of a scribe -a public servant who rendered internal services within royal households.
3. It is a historical fact that a number of comparatively low-status groups were absorbed into the Nair community and the cases of the Veluthedathu Nair and Vilakkithala Nair are only the most apparent among them. For instance the chempu-kotti was elevated with social sanction as nayar when the requirement for roofing of temples with copper tiles arose. The Kerala-jatyachara-nirnayam included them as Nairs and the present census reports includes them too. It is only in the intermediary period (1800s and early 1900s) when higher divisions of nayar society was playing sub-caste politics to provort themselves so as to eventually make exodus from nayar by claiming Samantha status that census during these periods tended to enumerate these lowest ranks of nayars as separate castes . Now if you want to consider Itasseri and Chakkala, or the Pallicchan, Vattakkatan, and Asthikkuracchi as non-nayar professions it is a casteist behavior and members who are behaving in a way are no different from a Nambudiri who calls nayars strictly sudra (Lexicographers like P.Narayana Panicker and Sanskrit authorities like Kanippayoor says the concealed meaning of nair – nai : the totem dog “suna-eva-vritty” dog-like-loyalty exhibiting serviles but not derogatory when used in a totemic sense like in purusha-pungava or bull-man and not the much publicized glorifying etymology involving the Sanskrit word Nayaka or leader (anyway that’s irrelevant to the point of this discussion here). Today one cannot identify a Pallichan, illakkar or swaroopathil nair who have no separate titles. The only ones you can distinguish are nairs who have distinguishing titles.
Since (1) community organizations like NSS agree that they are Nairs (2) Namboothiris sanction them so as in Kerala-jatyachara-nirnayam (3) Social scientists agree they are nairs with lower rirtual rank. Thus politically, traditionally and scientifically they are considered nairs today. An effort note not-to recognize this is sub-casteism . Almost 15% of Kerala population is Nair and to say all of this were only landlords and ruling elite and serviles nairs were a small fraction is incorrect
4. Therefore if you feel ashamed to specifically mention barber or washer personnel due to image problem (ego) , the closest we can work out is to avoid the “kshatriya” peacocking (I have seen a number of unscientific and non-productive discussions here) and say
“Nayar, is a wide and general honorific appellation for a heterogenous matrilineal Hindu community, from Kerala, India, with a strong military tradition and several distinct elements professing different occupations. The Nayar caste encompasses several distinct un-connected lineages who, by hereditary occupation, included ruling feudal elite, retainers of land, soldiers , mercenaries, indoor and outdoor servile classes and integrated migrants from Canarese and Tamil speaking territories adjacent to Kerala"
In this way you can avoid peacocking, be factual, anthropologically and historically correct and avoid “instigate” sub-casteist or caste chauvinist users vandaling quality of Wikipedia articles with peacock terms and substantiating them with un-scientific and unfocussed polemics.
There is nothing personal against you, however your arguments are not scientific and based on heresay and feelings , if you are so confident why don´t you co-operate for a moderation with a social scientist as a moderator.
This is what the historian Francois Pyrard says about Nairs: "As for the Nairs, they are all nobles and meddle with neither handicraft nor trade, nor any other exercise, but that of arms, which they always carry." Axxn ( talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This is definitely an issue. The days of observance of pula-vaalaima or asoucham or hygiene practices is inversely proportinal to the ritual status and precisely proves that the nair society encompassed distinct ranks and not just nobles and lords. The definition needs to be more comprehensive and devoid of kshatriya peacocking. I myself am a Nambiar by birth and hence a Nayar , however that does not mean we as Nayars try to feed wikipedia with socially incorrect definitions. Wikiepdia is an opensource encyclopedia to be factual is our duty to readers.Sociologists agree that as Kerala caste names are inherited matrilinially and the sambandham unions were morganistic in nature, the mother has to be Kshatriya (dwija) and the nature of her marriage Anuloma if the progeny is to be recognized as Kshatriya. Samantha Kshatriya is threaded because after the mahadanam is performed a Samanthan is no more a glorifiried-sudra and becomes Kshatriya and threaded (dwija). Thus the samantha Kshatriya becomes higher in status during his period of status-tenure to the non-threaded section of Antarala jati /Ambalavasi. In contrast, Samantha is not a dwija and non-threaded and simply a Nayar with higher ritual-rank and is below in rank of Ambalavasi. You can see how pula and Valaima days were combined to denote a spectrum of ritual ranks even within the heterogenous Nayar community User:Sanam001 .
Some user has been trying to incite communal tension by calling Ezhava and Nair ladies concubines as he did here. Please refrain from inciting ethnic hatred. Axxn ( talk) 12:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Here he calls Nairs "dogs". Is there no one here to ban this guy? Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 03:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
He doesn't call Nairs "dogs". He was just suggesting how the name might have originated from loyalty being a quality of the Nairs. Don't let your strong feelings dominate your logic.-- Josettpat ( talk) 01:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Kindly try to discuss issues rather than trying character assasination. Lexicographers agree that this usage is totemic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 09:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
If the administrator finds it suitable i am wiling to participate in a consensus/dispute resolution that can be reached on the basis of any wikipedia administrator who is a student or researcher of anthropology and may volunteer to mediate the validity of the arguments of either parties placed and can comment on the merit and scientific validity of the following three expert studies.
1. Changing kinship usages in the setting of political and economic changes among the nayars of Malabar by E Kathleen Glough in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 82, No. 1
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2844041?cookieSet=1
2. The internal structure of the nayar caste by C.J Fuller in the Journal of anthropological research 1975
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3629883
3. Nayars of Malabar by Fawcett
Thanks by Sanam001
It appears that the discussion is not following objective practices and looks like we should have a moderation committe of expert anthroplogists to resolve the issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I intend to arrive at a dispute resolution.Hwever since discussions and efforts to third party opinion to reach dispute resolution is not solving the dispute, we should follow the normal course and ask for an arbitration committe-- Sanam001 ( talk) 11:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC).
Why dont you want to co-operate to dispute resolution through an arbitration committee if you are so confident that your content version is right ? I am still open to the idea.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 17:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
dear all, where can i get hold of the book-" history of the nair service society"( title may be in malayalam) 117.192.224.124 ( talk) 08:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
since 30 and mult-party discussion has failed reach a consensus between disputed parties and since the issue is complex and sensitive and content discussions detouring into personal attacks and mudslinging, the only option for maintaining genuineness of article will be review of content by an expert committee . I therefore kindly request Anandks007 and Suresh.Varma 123 to kindly co-operate to formal mediation of the content dispute existing between us. In this was we will have an expert committee commenting and we can avoid accusing one another of vandalism and edit wars.
Thanking you in advance-- Sanam001 ( talk) 21:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Even if the ratio is 5:1 it means a consensus has not been reached by multi-party discussion on the content. So we have to amicably resolve the issue by request for formal request for mediation as next step of dispute resolution. It is the normal course of dispute resoution , you are encouraged to participate-- Sanam001 ( talk) 02:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
There is no dispute i voice my protest against sanam's inclusion which are borderline vandalizations and misleading information. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 05:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam’s view points are highly malicious, distorted and half-baked with clear intentions. People who believe and quote bigoted authors like Kanipapayur are exposing themselves here. They are not fit to make any intelligent, meaningful and sensible discussions. No more time to waste for Sanam.( Keraleeyan)
Administrators agree that content dispute is not vandalism. It always takes more than one to create an edit war. Wikipedia strongly discourages the policy of actively recruiting and directing people with similar view points towards a common topic as it is an unhealthy practice in resolving content disputes. I will continue to strive towards maintaining Wikipedia free of peacock terms and claims. Even if the ratio is 5:1 it simply means that a consensus on content dispute has not been reached by all parties with dispute. I am still open to the idea of dispute resolution through an independent committee who are experts in the field of anthropology to validate the scientific accuracy of cited references of either parties. Our focus should be the genuiness of content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 ( talk • contribs) 13:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep calm and focus on the content of dispute and assume good faith of your opponent in a content dispute as such methods are encouraged by wikipedia. Sanam001 ( talk) 14:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Articles should be written with scientific proof and should be misleading people as wiki is been used by a large number of people. But whatever you have written is quite personal imaginations and not facts —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.112.143 ( talk) 13:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Well the problem is only as long as you want to specifically use the sanskrit word "kshatriya". Then it has to be true to its meaning and intent. However if you refrain from "Kshatriya" to people with strong martial tradition, i will have no content dispute. -- Sanam001 ( talk) 14:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
You may benefit from checking the following PhD thesis from the Department of History at MG university. It describes Nayar regulation Act, Travancore Kshatriya Act etc and provides extensive information of the legal distinction between the two communities.You will realise by yourself legitimacy of your POV pushing of Nayars as Malayala Kshatriya
Title: History of Social legistlation in Travancore state'
http://www.mgutheses.in/page/?q=T%201251&search=&page=&rad=#38
Also you may want to check on the workings of organizations of Kshatriya Kshema Sabha of Kerala, Kshatriya Sabha, Samantha Mahasabha etc and check out with NSS their relation-ship with these parallel organization.Truth will be self evident.
Kindly donot attack the MG university , history department :-))) -- Sanam001 ( talk) 09:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As Sanam is pushing on with his POV despite the warning from several users here, I request all users to revert his edits without further wastage of time. The Kshatriya / Sudra issue has been discussed in detail years ago and if user Sanam is having any doubts he can check the archives. It is clear that Sanam, rather than reaching a consensus on his edits is repeating his blatant POV pushing citing some irrelevant and obsolete arguments. Let's keep wikipedia free of racist hatred and POV. I am listing his most favorite targets:
You may first want to pursue understanding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nair#Truth
N number of POV and propaganda and manipulating wikipedia is not going to change facts. Infact these discussions will be part of input data for existing academic research on "changing social mobility strategies of malayala shudras in post democratic india" soon to be published in a high impact factor research journal. Infact interesting patterns emerge on comparison of web-based propaganda and data collected through interviews of more than 2000 nairs on the same issue. In web-based platform offering anonimity the pretentious propaganda is higher. For every nayar in the sample case study of 2000 interviewed interesting patterns are emerging between nayars of erstwhile malabar district and Travancore-cochin and between those born before and after Abolishment of matriliniality in 1970s. -- Sanam001 ( talk) 10:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Don´t worry, i intend to strive towards keeping wiki clean of POV on grounds of moral public responsibility to keep information faithful from POV . As for research articles, they are peer reviewed by experts and you will see it in the coming years once study is complete. As for racism i am sure the peer review, the objectivity of the analysis and the fact that i myself am a nair/nambiar any recepient of such a complaint would be easily be able to ascertain the genuiness of such a complaint. I implore you in the spirit of collective knowledge tradition of a great institution like IIT from where you claim to have graduated (for i was a research student at IISc myself and have had the oppurtunity to see IIT students) that you help me in maintaing POV free articles. The natural dignity of the nayar race is proverbial in several travelogues and as one member to another within the community my sincere suggestion to you would be that let us maintain it by showing our integrity.Let us strive to keep wiki clean of peacock terms and POV. On a different note one of the legitimate Malayala kshatriya community member ( a member of the palli division of the kolathiri family was amused by my study when i met him as part of teams approaching him because the stanis of malabar had to interact with our thampuran how to deal the issue of MDB stripping of our dignities ) and said that you (I)are true in the spirit of intergrity of your lineage (my matrilinial line are officially ooralars/stanis (official dignities) in one of the temples under chirakkal taluk and we even today look upon the sanction of the thampuran for our sthanan vilichu chollal ceremony. Being a sat-sudra has never been a shame for me but rather a matter of my natural dignity and has never affected my judgement of analysing anthropological material pertaining to my own community. I beleive in a POV free nayar image-- Sanam001 ( talk) 13:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I intend to strive towards keeping wiki clean of a POV free nair image- articles that do not reek of Kshatriya peacocking.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 13:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Frankly Sanam it doesn't matter whether u are a nambiar,namboodiri,ezhava or pulayar(no contributor questioned ur background and lineage).all u need to be a wiki contributor is to be neutral,provide verifiable information and not insert pov(in your case the namboodiri line) and ofcourse not indulge in abuse which u are doing so often.in wikipedia it really doesn't matter if u are a passout from iit or iisc or harvard,so i would be very happy if u edit some science related articles based on your self proclaimed knowledgde than consistently distort articles related to malayali communities.thank you. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 15:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Why POV pushing by Sanam is based on irrelevant and obsolete data? Let us take a look. (First a warning to you Sanam. Don't vandalize my post my posting in between. If you want to post your opinion, write them below the entire post)
The dispute has two points.
1. nayar definition is not generic and gives the impression that all nairs are ruling elite thereby undermining and descriminating all other traditional occupations of nayars. Nayar is not a single entity with a single lineage therefore i am ready to compromise by individually not mentioning the barber, washer women but they are reduced just to serviles so the neutral definition should include "distinct lineages" with " distinct´professions" (parisha) and mention ruling elite, soldiers, peasants and serviles.
2. The use of the word "kshatriya" and claiming kshatriya status is incorrect. nayars are sat-sudras. However as stated earlier i will not emphasise on the sat-sudra point as a comprimising neutral solution provided nayar and all nayar related pages are completely devoid of the word "kshatriya" and any sentences in whatsoever form infering a kshatriya peacocking. We should strive that wikipedia should not provide false information even if it cannot provide all information.
These are the only two acceptable neutral solution. Otherwise the dispute exists still and dispute resolution taken to next level.
As for Mr. Suresh Varma identifying himself as a Kshatriya, i have no problem as it is his personal decision and i have no moral authority to interfere in your personal choice and i am obliged to respect it. I can only provide how my cousins mananged as they were faced with similar predicaments because of aunts being married to uncles from alladam swaroopam (neeleshwaram), puranattu swaroopam (kottayam of Malabar) and chirakkal kovilagam (kannur) in post matriliniality abolished society, it was therefore discussed whether they were varmas or nambiars by the family. We were all realistically practicing patriliniality but we all had virtual matrilinial identity due to the issue of sthanam title and pula-valaima observance. So we live patrilinially and our titles and customs go matrilinially and it was a predicament. Every family has its way of handling such issues and in my family they were given choice although strictly only if your mother is a malayala kshatriya and father equivalent or higher in ritual rank can the offspring claim the mothers title. This predicament did not exist before 1975 and it was an unsusual situation then. So decision was given to individual children as a compromise. Those who adopted the varma title underwent the upanayanam with the sanction of their fathers and Nambudiris agreed to it as there will not be anyone else to do antyeshti rituals of the father especially if the father had no ananthiravan (Nambudiris are flexible if you present predicaments along their logic, you have to tell them). However these children took up kshatriya identity and practice the shodasha samsakaram and forgo all ritualistic sthanam titles and rights to ooraima (hereditary trustee ship of family temples) inherited matrilinially. They also observed pula-valaima patrilinially and not matrilinially. Those who chose Nayar identity and hence sat-sudra could retain their claims to ooraima but has to identify themselves as sat-sudra and observe pula-valaima matrilinially even while living patrilinially. The choice was personal and was respected by all family members as long as the child did not take up the best of both worlds and maintained fidelity to one system given the unusual circumstances. Therefore at a personal level i am obliged to respect the choice of suresh varma if he has decided to take up the kshatriya identity . The greatest atrocity perpetrated on the nayar community by government legislation in the past is putting sthani nayars in unusual predicaments. However if one has the will one can survive it. In a nut shell one cannot take up kshatriya and nayar identity at the same time. --
Sanam001 (
talk)
17:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Have you read the PhD thesis link stated earlier ? Have you tried to find out about Kshatriya Sabha ? The truth is very evident. I dispute the content as long as there is pretentious Kshatriya peacocking which is incorrect and will contrinue to work towards maintaining wikipedia free of false information.Try to focus on the content and when a content dispute arises discuss logically assuming good faith of the opponent.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 17:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As stated earlier repeatedly i have suggested two neutral solutions. if you are not amenable to it, then i still have a dispute. Focus - Focus on the content- avoid POV pushing vis a vis kshatriya peacocking.Avoid indulging in co-ercing other users to join discussion on to support your ideology. Wiki strongly discourages it. remeber that i am not casuing edit wars. It takes two to create an edit war. So think upon the neutral solution and let me know the opinion.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 18:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Mr.Varma,a samantha kshatriya says he has Nair(nagavanshi) origin and the Nairs are his kshatriya brethren so the dispute ends there sanam,as far as kshatriya sabha in kerala is concerned,there is also something called the bunt sangha in kasaragod,these two communities have certain customs and traditions different hence their own organisations that doesn't mean they have separate organisations because they don't share common ancestry or do not have the same varna status of kshatriya.also sanam's opinions are strange i once pointed out to him(see my talk page archive and his for details) that travancore royals or the kolathiri don't have sambandam with namboodiris or do hiranyagarbha.he replies to me saying the travancore royal family are nothing but elevated sudras(sat sudra in his words) but now accepts the kshatriya status of Mr.Varma who has no namboodiri connection.point is proven mr sanam you are a hypocrite. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 05:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Anand,even I don't use my real identity(I prefer anonymity),hope u don't think the same about me as you do of sanam.:-). Linguisticgeek ( talk) 06:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Just a joke Anand,anyways one more thing what rubbish is sanam talking matrilineality has been abolished and Nairs have turned patrilineal.neither the N.S.S or the kshatriya sabha have passed any resolotuion to that effect.you can say nairs today have nuclear families,but every nair samantha kshatriya and a bunt still identifies with the tharavadu of their mothers(matrilineal) and attach great pride to it.Kinship,family relation and lineages among all the nagavanshis is still based on marumakkatayam though property inheritance today is based on the modern Hindu laws of Independent India where both son and daughters get equal share. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 06:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Primary statement: The point is a PhD thesis under the supervision of PJ cherian and various anthropological journal citations could not convince you. Similarly your citations and methods of citation fail to convince me.In addition two alternate dispute resolution solution options presented by me is non acceptable by you. Therefore the dispute is not resolved.
Peripheral statement: In case you donot know "The Joint Family System (Abolition) Act, 1975 by the Kerala State Legislature" stopped Marumakkathayam inheritance. However sthanis are still passing ritual title by moopumura matrilinially. Except in north malabar ( matrilinial virilocal), all others had matilinial uxorilocal which stopped after the enactment of law a.Pula Vaalaima is practiced matrilinially even now. People live patrilinially. In nut shell, nayars today live patrilinially with a concept of virual matrilinial family for assumption of title and practice of pula-valaima. The problem is more acute in North Malabar than other areas because sthanam dignities had becomee non-existent or symbolic mostly in the south due to early well established Devaswom boards. 1600 temples under 6 districts of Kerala are now under the jurisdiction of newly formed MDB from 2009 threatening the life style of erstwhile sthanis of Malabar who are predominantly Nayars.Anyways i had expected this ignorance because principal component analysis and clustering analysis of data show that identities who embark on pretentious kshatriya claims in a web-based platform correspond to ones with "distorted perception of rituals" and this was one of the component that captured maximaum variability distinguishing this subset from the subset of nayars who embark on such claims using non web-based platform for social mobility.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 09:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunate. Donot engage in content dispute on topics where academic knowledge is minimum. Dr. PJ cherian is an internationally acclaimed research historian and director of Kerala Council for Historical Research (KCHR).He guides several PhDs in Kerala history.
Check out: http://keralahistory.ac.in/news.htm-- Sanam001 ( talk) 10:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam please read Hindu Succession Act, 1956 thats how inheritance takes place in india.it's neither patrilineal or matrilineal and stop your OS and frankly can't make out what are u a student of history science or communist propaganda(i really can't make out). Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
and calling established wiki contributors as ignorant is desperate frankly and what social mobility,nairs are a forward caste. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Kerala Council of Historical Research. has been dissolved according to the link provided by sanam,lol an internationally acclaimed P.J.Cherian(Sanam's words,i don't believe) is a director of a defunct organisation. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 10:27, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
“ | I have been on the subject of the Nairs of Kerala for the last one decade and hence am some sort of authority on the same. At least better read than most Indians on the subject and at least most Nairs.
The origins of the Nairs are shrouded in mystery, but from most ancient accounts, cultures and customs, it can be safely inferred that the Nairs are Scythian of descent. The fact that recent tests indicate presence of the warrior gene 'dopamine' in them as in case of other Scythians attests to this fact. As a race they are distinct from the prevailing Aryan or Dravidian races of India. The classic chaturvarna as it exists in North India never applied in the South and hence any later caste classification is a work of fiction or more truly non-sense. Warfare was the chief occupation of the Nairs since the last two millenia plus. Most ancient works give a very credible account of the Nairs as the martial nobility of the land. Even the French Captain Mahe De La Bourdeannis, an accomplished warrior himself speaks very highly of the fighting spirit of the Nairs. The above is inspite of the fact that the French fleet was defeated by local Nairs and hence had to take refuge in modern day Tamil nadu. The most important fact attesting to their noble military virtues is the fact that for over two thousand years they were able to maintain the integrity and security of their land and culture unlike the rest of India. The only race to have decisively defeated the Nairs are the British. The British hence colluded with the neo-converts to suppress these inherently rebellious traditional warlords and succeeded. Most Indian history is communism inspired or secualrism inspired or worst of all; a thoughtless copy of English history. The British Army (not native infantry) performed poorly against the Nair warlords and the Nairs considered it below their dignity to serve under the British and hence most Nair history in Kerala and India is blanched out. Otherwise what explains grand celebrations of the 1857 revolt wherein a single intoxicated Mangal Pandey took no significant British casualty & yet is considered a national hero. The subsequent attack on the English residency was a military fiasco. Later reinforcements of the British and Sikh troops destroyed every ounce of Indian military muscle. The humiliation and crushing were complete. The Indian lossess were large and shameful. Victory, if any clearly was with the British. The Indians were impaled or hung and the females raped by rapacious native troops.Not much to celebrate about. Maybe, it would make more sense to look for celebrations down south where the Fussiladers and the other English highlanders fared poorly against Nair chieftans as also Moslem Moplahs. The toll the Nairs took on the British is much higher than any recorded in Hindoostan of those times. Indian culture is much more than hip gyrating dances and semi-nudes. Look around. You see it & yet miss it. Pity. Absolute Pity. |
” |
- 130.60.68.45 ( talk) 01:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
As stated earlier-these are the only two acceptable neutral solution. Otherwise the dispute exists .
1. Nayar is not a single entity with a single lineage therefore i am ready to compromise by individually not mentioning the barber, washer women but they are reduced just to serviles so the neutral definition should include "distinct lineages" with " distinctprofessions" and mention ruling elite, soldiers, peasants and serviles and mentioning “integration from migrants”. Eg:
Nayar, is a wide and general honorific appellation for a heterogenous matrilineal Hindu community, from Kerala, India, with a strong military tradition and several distinct elements professing different occupations. The Nayar caste encompasses several distinct un-connected lineages who, by hereditary occupation, included ruling feudal elite, retainers of land, soldiers , mercenaries, indoor and outdoor servile classes and integrated migrants from Canarese and Tamil speaking territories adjacent to Kerala
2. The use of the Sanskrit word "kshatriya" and claiming kshatriya status is incorrect and should be relaced by “strong martial tradition”. However as stated earlier i will not emphasise on the sat-sudra point as a comprimising neutral solution provided nayar and all nayar related pages are completely devoid of the word "kshatriya" and any sentences in whatsoever form infering a kshatriya peacocking. We should strive that wikipedia should not provide false information even if it cannot provide all information.
PS: The 1956 act was insufficient to solve the problems of property claims along the matrilineal descent in Kerala . Therefore the government passed THE KERALA JOINT HINDU FAMILY SYTEM (ABOLITION) ACT, 1975 to realistically effect matriliniaty and completely stop it as a property inheritance mode in Kerala. Refer http://kmmathew.com/art003h.html.
The burden of education - As for PJ Cherian
http://www.keralahistory.ac.in/ - institute page
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thirupuram/KCHR-receives-C-P-Matthens-papers-/articleshow/5094523.cms - News on PJ cherian -- Sanam001 ( talk) 10:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
To Mr.Sanam who dislikes established wikipedia editors whom he implies to be a collective mafia as evidently stated on his page.
second highest in ritual status of the four varnas, or social classes, of Hindu India, traditionally the military or ruling class.
The earliest Vedic texts listed the Kshatriya (holders of kshatra, or authority) as first in rank, then the Brahmans (priests and teachers of law), next the Vaishya (merchant-traders), and finally the Sudra (artisans and labourers). Movements of individuals and groups from one class to another, both upward and downward, were not uncommon; a rise in status even to the rank of Kshatriya was a recognized reward for outstanding service to the rulers of the day. The legend that the Kshatriya were destroyed by Parasurama, the sixth avatar of Vishnu, as a punishment for their tyranny is thought by some scholars to reflect a long struggle for supremacy between priests and rulers. Brahmanic texts such as the Manu-smrti (a book of Hindu law) and most other dharmashastras (works of jurisprudence) report a Brahman victory, but epic texts often offer a different account, and it is likely that in social reality rulers have usually ranked first. The persistent representation of deities (especially Vishnu, Krishna, and Rama) as rulers underscores the point, as does the elaborate series of ritual roles and privileges pertaining to kings through most of Hindu history. These largely buttress the image of a ruler as preserver of dharma (religious and moral law) and auspicious wealth. In modern times, the Kshatriya varna includes a broad class of caste groups, differing considerably in status and function but united by their claims to rulership, the pursuit of war, or the possession of land [2]. 90.46.32.29 ( talk) 23:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a general definition of what is a Kshatriya. The Nairs and this article respect this definition. 90.46.32.29 ( talk) 00:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Kindly place edits and comments only at the end to conserve cohesiveness for better understanding.
The definition of Nair in encyclopedia Britannica does not include the word “Kshatriya” in definition [3]. I will try to explain it from your handle of arguments: Here it is:
According to expert historians, anthropologists, sociologists and indologists and sanskrit scholars- A Kshatriya is simply a Varna-rank and this Sanskrit terminology confering legitimate claims to rulership can only be used to define members provided they practice specific rules of conduct (dharma) and importantly adhere to a personal life following all sixteen consecrations or tenets (Shodasha samskaram) while simultaneously being recognized/legitimized by the regulators of moral-codes (Brahmanas/priests) based on their jurisprudence of consideration of suitability . This is because the consideration of the suitability of a group to be defined by the Vedic terminology Kshatriya rank has two main outcomes, one having to do with responsibility, the other with privilege (jura gentium), and one concerning the perpetrators of crime and the other its victims. While judging this system we should bear in mind that we are certainly not dealing with a social model based on any notion of equality, but equally it is not simple notion based on privilege (jura gentium). Varnas (perhaps the most explosive topic in Hinduism ) derived their basis from the Purushasukta (Rig Veda) in dividing mankind into four socially separate interdependent categories/terminologies (Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas and Shudra). Varna system was essentially an inequal stratified vertical structure based on the principle of 'Division of Labour' and most importantly the suitability of the different groups for the different categories of occupations. Caste-fanatics manipulated this model to discriminate. Anthropologists observed that in contrast to other Brahmins , the Brahmins of Kerala and Tulunadu follow the canon of “Poorva mimamsa “ to enquire and interpret the nature of dharma based on close hermeneutics of the Vedas. The Poorva Mimamsa school traces the source of the knowledge of dharma (rules of conduct or duty) neither to sense-experience nor inference, but to verbal cognition according to Vedas. Now, the terminology “Shudra” included individuals who performed services or serviles and encompassed manual and agricultural labourers, artisans, masons, land-holders, mercenary-warriors and even some times Kings. Historians, sociologists and anthropologists observe that except Sudras, all the other three categories were called as Dwija or twice born. The meaning of twice born is that after a birth the three categories (Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas) are again born with the investiture with the sacred thread, the symbol of a child’s admittance to membership to the elite-category-dwija after which he is trained through subsequent samskara consecrations to attain maturity to handle his privilege. Neither Kerala or Tulu Brahmins who are custodians of jurisprudence of dharma in Kerala nor other Brahmin of India have recognized/legitimized nayar-bulk for consideration of suitability to be defined by the term Kshatriya as we Nayars are essentially a compilation of distinct lineages professing distinct occupations with a strong martial tradition but devoid of the spiritual training associated with Kshatra-dharma and most importantly we nayars donot maintain in our personal life Garbhadana samskara, Pumsavana samskara, Upanayana samskara, Samavartana samskara, Vivaha samskara (as per vedic rites), Panchamahayajna samskara, Vanaprastha samskara and thus does not adhere 7 out of 16 tenets. Niether have we Nayars been investituted with any identifying Vedic gotra or Pravara to artificially connect us to Vedic Gotra system of Dwijas. Now let us look at social mobility strategies of castes in India. In exceptional events of outstanding contributions to protection of Hindu-dharma (Rajputs) or as a compromise or deal during socio-political rivalry between Brahmin and non-Brahmin power structures, members of Sudra stock have been provorted as Kshatriya permanently (Neeleshwaram, Kolathiri, Cochin) or leased temporally (Thiruvathamkoor) in Kerala under the conditions that specific rules of conduct and importantly personal adherence to all sixteen consecrations or tenets be observed by them. In additions they had to shed their old identity and accept their new identity through practice and observance of these conducts (like a neaveux rich training his daughter in a finishing school for exorbitant fee to ensure an aristocratic husband). In other words, social mobility was not attained through pretentious propaganda but exploiting loop-holes because for pretentious propaganda if pursued damages social relationships irreversibly. We Nayars cannot use the terminology Kshatriya to describe ourselves and are defined under the category sat-shudra or clean serviles. Shudra as perceived by the Pan-Indian “great culture” interacts with social environment peculiar to Kerala history-the “little culture” to evolve the Sudra identity of nayar in a non derogatory sense and purely totemic. Historians observe that the malayalam sudras of which the better class are called nayars are the bulk of the respectable population-servants, land holders, farmers, mercenary soldiers, officials and even kings and are a remarkable group. Nayars have been always driven by maryada or Acharam based social rules. In addition the bulk of Nair community encompassed members that professed hereditarily laborours, small land-holders and mercenary soldiers as opposed to the minority fraction that were sudra-ruling elite (Samanthan). The primary definition is non representative of the bulk lineages and discriminative. A subset of my own community armed with inadequate information uses the web-based platform trying to supplant the natural dignity of my community as sat-sudra with shame and mis-represents information in an encyclopedia by peacocking with in-appropriate terminology to generate a POV nayar image. As stated earlier repeatedly i have suggested two neutral solutions [4]. if you are not amenable to it, then i still have a dispute. Focus on the content- avoid POV pushing vis a vis kshatriya peacocking. Avoid indulging in co-ercing other users to join discussion on to support your ideology. Wiki strongly discourages it. Remeber that i am not casuing edit wars- It takes two to create an edit war. So think upon the neutral solution assuming good faith and let me know the opinion on these two neutral solutions.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 17:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
There is already sufficient information with regards to links to research articles, thesis, and perspectives in these talk pages that these questions and issues are redundant. So kindly refer earlier discussions and your queries will be answered. In a discussion when two oppenents are unwilling to accept the reliability of each others citations then the phase of acheiving a dispute resolution through convincing one another has failed and passed. Then, the best way to acheive it is to see what is the middle point that is possible. I have already stated mine above in earlier posts. Kindly use this next phase to evaluate the realistic translatability.-- Sanam001 ( talk) 23:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I am a research student from the Warwick University specializing in Visual Cultures and History. I have done extensive research on the History, religion and Caste system in India. I can honestly state that Nayar of Kerala is a Kshatriya community according to the most widely recognized definition of the term "Kshatriya". Rajput of North India is considered to be the equivalent of Nayar in South India. These two communities are considered to be Kshatriya proper, although there are several other communities having their claims to Kshatriya status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.192.27 ( talk) 12:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Go through the middle points i have suggested (1) formal mediation of this dispute by experts who will judge my citations and yours without any prejuice (2) Avoid coccussing tendency of a community of users with well established agenda to mis-represent information on a web-based encyclopedia (3) The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So go through the middle solution I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article whether the disagreement is with 1 or 10. Remember that it takes more than one to cause an edit war and meat puppetry is strongly discouraged by wikipedia. Assuming good faith, and providing oppurtunity to re-think, you may take this time to go through the middle point i have suggested earlier.You may un-wittingly be part of, so check what cabal means-- Sanam001 ( talk) 04:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Nayars are not Kshatriyas, nor Vaishyas, nor Shudras. The caste is "Nayar". The Kerala Caste system is Nambudiri, Nayar, Ambalavasi, etc, etc. Apart from Nambudiris who were undisputed Brahmins, no other caste fits into the Chaturvarna system. Take the example of Ambalavasi, they are by no means Brahmins, and not Kshatriyas or anything else either. 121.214.117.235 ( talk) 22:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The practical translatability of the line of thought of user 121.214.117.235 is welcomed and may help in maintaining all community articles relating to Kerala castes free of varna terminology. I am not interested in emphasising varna terminology in nair or any nair related articles either. As stated earlier the neutral point that we could realistcally acheive would be (1) not to use either the term sudra or kshatriya in original nayar article, any of the articles of nayar sub-divisions like menon etc and the article nair subcastes (2) Remove the malayala sudra page in exchange for removing the sentences in malayala kshatriya page or samantha kshatriya page that may imply that nayars or nayar sub-divisions are known by Kshatriya terminology or nayars are kshatriya in any derivatory implying. A term - "a body politic with strong military tradition is acceptable in the original nair article and is suggested in exchange for removing varna terminology in the original nair article Sanam001 ( talk) 01:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a popular site and appears high in the search engine rankings. You might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that’s not the case. Specific users seems to have rejected the WP: NPOV and not used the time given to them in good faith for retropspection of the middel solution stated above. Sanam001 ( talk) 09:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that are all editors are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance- we must do our best to step back and characterize the content dispute with each new controversial point being stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views - it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides. Consensus is not always possible, but it should be your goal. You have rejected the WP: NPOV and not used the time given to you in good faith for retropspection of the middle solution Sanam001 ( talk) 12:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam are you seriously interested in editing wikipedia,because frankly all you seem to have done(i just checked your edit history) is put namboodiri pov in articles related to malayali communities nairs specifically and also in the ezhava article.apart from this you seem to have developed some personal enimity with Axxn and have been constantly harrasing him by reverting his edits.This isn't good faith and frankly you don't seem to listen to other people's views,not one but many users have cited your edits as POV.Why Don't you make a self introspection rather than implying established wikipedia contributors as some sort of mafia as evidently stated on your User page.Thank you Linguisticgeek ( talk) 13:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
My dispute is only for the content of nayar and nayar related articles as there has been a concerted effort to POV forking and not addrressing WP:NPOV. I am assuming that User: Anandks007 and others are all editors are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it.The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So go through the middle solution I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article . Assuming good faith, and providing oppurtunity to re-think, you may take this time to go through the middle point i have suggested earlier.--
Sanam001 (
talk) 04:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Sanam001 (
talk)
14:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have been using Wikipedia as a source of information for the past many many years, but I never considered signing up or contributing to Wikipedia. But after watching what is going on here for the last few days, I am compelled to do so. I live outside India and therefore rely on wikipedia for information on topics in which I am not having enough knowledge. But after reading what Sanam001 writing here, it seems that wikipedia is fast becoming a paradise for spammers and extremists. I consider my self to be quite knowledgeable as far as history and culture of Kerala is considered, but the things Sanam001 writing here is beyond my understanding and commonsense. Sanam001 is posting completely false and biased information, and everyone seems to be agree that his info is unreliable. But unfortunately he is still continuing with his misinformed edits and I am at a lose to explain why. Even as a newbie I am able to understand the motives behind Sanam001's posts, but why the so called experienced posters here are unable to do so? Chandrakantha.Mannadiar ( talk) 15:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Focus on the NPOV points as suggested earlier Sanam001 ( talk) 16:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
User sanam has shown enormous evidence which shows nairs are not kshathriyas. The attitude of users like Axxn and suresh varma are ridiculous. People like Axxn, suresh varma etc are trying to write history according to their wish unfortunately for them there is enough historical documents which clearly shows nairs are not kshathriyas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.164.150.169 ( talk) 07:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
By sanam's own admission the present maharaja of travancore is a Shudra,Therefore by that logic he shouldn't be the guradian of the Padmanabha swami temple and does not have any claim on the throne.and please annoymous ips create your own wikipedia id before commenting would be so much better.the logic sanam puts forth is ridiculous.His Namboodiri POV is not just limited to Nairs he has stated that ezhava women were mistresses of British Men(just found out while while checking his edit history and couldn't stop laughing)and therefore some ezhavas are fair,now no serious student of anthrophology would make such ridiculous comments.Even Edgar Thurston suggests Nairs are a warrior class in his caste and tribes book,but sanam has stated before that they are not.and what evidences has sanam put forth,some theories not even peer reviewed by P.J.Cherian,the head of organisation that was once put out of business.And one more question Sanam agrees that Rajputs are kshatriyas while northern brahmins just like namboodiris say about nairs is that rajputs are shudras.so isn't this double standards.All i can conclude is that sanam has some serious grudge against the Nairs and most importantly the travancore royal family(Maybe because in Travancore the Namboodiris are not allowed to conduct ceremonies but Tulu speaking Embrandiri Brahmins perform most religious ceremonies) which brings me to another question is sanam a namboodiri,(which i suspect though no proof to claim so i will leave it there) and even if he is,there is no problem as far he does not push POV and contributes to wikipedia constructively.All contributors are welcome if they adhere to policies.
Linguisticgeek (
talk)
07:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments user 202.164.150.169. but unfortunately inadequacy on subject nature and content of certain individual users have remained the reason for not being able to acheive NPOV . For instance allmost every academic historian involved in research in Kerala society is aware of the work of P.J Cherian [6]. Well acclaimed Edgar thurston becomes colonial POV when it comes to "Kshatriya" peacocking issue but the same Edgar Thurston is used as Reference 63 when it is needed to show unwarranted casteism (see reference 63 of the Nair article and the context in which it is used !!!! Shocking !!!). In addition an NPOV suggestion to remove all varna terminology both nayar - both sudra and Kshatriya was not taken up.So the wider intention of POV forking is more than self evident. I have tried to convince many things from several perspectives however when good faith does not exist in response and williness to NPOV does not exist, the point of such engagements are far gone. Unethical practices such as meat puppetry seeing existing users taking up the cause of edit wars and sudden recruitment of IP 90.46.211.67 was also seen. Therefore a formal mediation for NPOV seems the next level, till then my dispute exists and i will exert my rights as any wikipedian to do maintain the authenticity of articles Sanam001 ( talk) 10:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC).
Firstly Sanam ur link is about a book by P.J.cherian and does not support your earlier claim that P.j.Cherian is a acclaimed historian.also using excessive bolds won't make your statements more trsutworthy.Using the word Kshatriya is not POV.It is legitimate sanskrit word for a warrior Hindu community which the nayars are.Some of Edgar thurston statements in the book are ofcourse colonial pov(only a blinded person would say they are not) but his works are largely unbiased unlike your views.secondly there is no dispute only you are involved in pov pushing (eg the travancore royal family are shudra,the children of a namboodiri and nair are kshatriya(the dharmashastras calls such progeny worse than shudras).and as far as i.p.s are concerned their views should not taken into consideration even i can accuse you that the ip from calicut which supports your POV views is your sock puppet. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 11:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
No more discussion is required on this talk page about kshatriya status and origin of nairs,it is proven that nairs are scythians and are a warrior caste.user sanam has been blocked for his disruptive edits.and one more thing people writing about samanta kshatriyas origin don't read history books.Samantha kshatriya atleast two families (the travancore and kolathiri) which do not intermarry with nambudiris have direct descent from Kulashekara Bunt dynasty from Tulu Nadu(Bunts are traditionally endogamous).whereas other samantha families have direct descent from the ordinary warrior nairs eg the cochin family.The Bunts claim only nagavanshi descent and so do most nair clans.it is only the cochin family who underwent hiranyagarbha who claim chandravashi descent(a lineage given by nambudiris) but even they are nagas.the fact is Bunts,Nairs,samantha kshatriya,the namboodiris as well as the Tuluva brahmins all are ethnically from the same stock scythians with aryan mixture from Ahichatra in Uttar pradesh according to genetic studies on these communities.This ethnic similarity is also evident from the fact that the namboodiri brahmins in Payyanur are also matrilineal like nairs and bunts which historians say is proof that nambudiri and tuluva brahmins might be warrior scythian naga clans who were elevated to brahmin status.Some nairs and Bunts might have mixture with previous ruling clans of the south precisely the Velirs(the highest of Vellalas) the title pillai among nairs and a bunt surname Ballal(corruption of Vellala) point towards that.But then again the Velirs have their own legends of north indian origins and claim to kshatriya status from chandravanshi clan(Might be a reason why the cochin royals call themselves chandravanshis).But anyways can today any community claim they have maintained their varna status.Brahmins were forbidden from travelling through the oceans,So many nambudiris in the gulf.according to the dharmashastra they have lost their varna.and one more thing in kaliyuga according to the dharmashastras no varna exists because dharma is lost.therefore by that definition all Hindus today and progeny of brahmins,kshatriya,vaishyas and shudras.but they themselves can't claim any varna because they don't do the prescribed duties to be within a varna. Linguisticgeek ( talk) 07:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Any Lead about the Ethnicity of Nairs?They,along with Syrian Christians and Some Mappila Muslims in calicut region does not looks like Dravidians.I've found a link where a DNA Test Proved Nairs have Middle Eastern Ancestory Found [2] ,Especially in Central and Northern Travancore.For eg: A Nair from Kottayam looks much fairer and large built than from Thrissur District(Ottapalam,,,etc).Is Nair ,a Term Collectively to Cover Different Races in kerala? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.33.48 ( talk) 22:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I have added a new image map for the front page image by adding a few more images. I think this is better than the previous image, as the captions can be avoided. If any more copyright free images are available, please replace some of the unimportant images and upload it again. Axxn ( talk) 07:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
dear friends ...in the main article on nairs, there is a reference of ram swarup joon's " history of jats" having mentioned the nagavanshi origin of the nairs... well i bought the book and read it thoroughly .... not only is there no mention of nairs anywhere in his book.... he claims jats are chandravanshis... so the message here is not to blindly take references... also the other books by jat historians, like lal pradaman singh and kishori lal faujdar need to be verified bfore we can include them in the references. Vivwiki ( talk) 19:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thanks, mr varma... for clarifying, any idea where the books by faujdar /lal pradaman singh( history of nagavansh- are available?...the book by ram sarup joon is by turns both informative and amateurish....he claims jats were founders of italy and scandinavia?!!!!.. jats are a vibrant and hardy race , but this may be taking it too far!!!!!! Vivwiki ( talk) 06:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
hi, axxn.... yes perhaps the reference of ram sarup joon... have gone through the book... nothing about nagavanshis or nairs...keep the faujdar and lal pradaman sing references, until proved fallacious 117.192.239.63 ( talk) 18:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
It is seen that there is a lot of discussion going on regarding whether Nair is Kshathriya or not. But in the article, it is written whith out doubt that Nair is kshatriya. My opinion is that such a claim should be removed from the article. It doesnt matter whether Nair is kshathriya or not. Such a claim, which is not sure, is not suitable for an encyclopedia. I know almost all nairs will prefer to be a Kshathriya. There are more important things. The spelling of Nair is corrupted from the beginning itself. According to the actual pronounciation, it is Nayar. A term used in poojakabahuvachana. Its singular is Nayan (in Malayalam). The etymological resemblence with Naga should also not be avoided. There were Naga worship in Kerala and Tamilnadu. Nagarcoil, in kanyakumari district of tamilnadu. Snnair ( talk) 05:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Let us give the details such as classificationof nair in separate section. Let the article be readable with. The first sentence itself was a mess - a biased one. Why are you reverting without any discussion? There are many sub-sects in Nairs which are not Khshathriyas. So a separate section is needed distinguishing this. It is necessary for the article to be neutral. If you are so curious with the purity of the artile read the Etymology section. From months it says in its very first sentence that "The word Nair lends itself to two etymological interpretations". But only one interpretation is given there.Where is the second one?. The second was there very long back. But the majority kshathriya-biased nair wikipedians removed it. However they forget to remove the first sentence of this section. The article is totally biased with inappropriate sections. A complete clean-up is required. The term "Malayala Kshathriya" surprised me a lot. Have you heard any where in kerala such a term in common use? Snnair ( talk) 06:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I REPEAT - NAIRS ARE NOT KSHATRIYAS
Let us go through some reliable resources:
Snnair ( talk) 11:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Axxn, Shannon1488 and Suresh.Varma.123. This has been discussed already and we've reached a conclusion. So there is no need to start a separate discussion. If you want, you can renew the discussion here. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar ( talk) 15:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Dear Johnuniq, thank you for the information regarding edit war in Nair page. In that page it is stated that Nairs are Malayala Kshatriyas. The terminology Malayala Kshatriya itself is a new one, you may find it only in wikipedia. Not in Britannica or other encyclopedias. The term Malayala Kshatriya itslef is fake. So I want to edit it. I tried to make the article neutral by stating that this is only a claim. But it got reverted soon. I asked a many times to the user Anand Krishnan to discuss on this matter. But without any discussion, he continued reverting. Now I noticed that he had maid the a comment in your talk page saying that he will be staying out of the article for the next 24 hours. Let the other users give their opinion and handle this issue. But the major problem is that a majority of editors from Kerala are nairs, and they will prefer the Kshatriya status (eventhough it has no meaning now a days). The truth is far behind than the opinion of majority. A nair can claim Kshathriya status because of his martial history. But all nairs are not Kshatriyas. There are different sub-sects which cannot claim such a status. All these factors should be mentioned in the article. The references provided in the article are also biased ones. Even if I make a discussion, the majority can quote too many such references and argue. Unless I get succeed the falls message will remain in the article (It will be very difficult to get a consensus among the editors of nair page). Is that you want? Presently the article is not neutral. What one can do in such a situation? Should we adopt the wish/opinion of a majority as truth? I wish to proceed with my editing. Please give reply in my talk page. Thank you. Snnair ( talk) 09:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I would like to summarize a few things before moving this section to the Nair talk page.
There fore these are my suggestions to User:X -
Thanks. Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 15:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Since Ezhavas are targeting this article without any provocation, I'd suggest adding the following facts to the Ezhava article:
"in the presence of a Namboodiri (Brahmin) an Ezhava ( an untouchable ) had to stand 36 feet away and in the presence of a Nair (Kshatriya) he had to stand 24 feet away" - Google Ebook 1
If you doubt about the validity of this reference, you can search in the net about Dr. K.P. Bhagat. He was the former principal of the Hislop Education Society. Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 02:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll give more references later. Suresh.Varma.123 ( talk) 02:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)