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One critical position is that the last two letters in the name Nahom are a suffix, and that the resulting root would actually be NH rather than NHM. This position is supported by the presence of a number of place names in the New World portion of the Book of Mormon narrative that end with the letters "om". reference "Nahom: Evidence for the Book of Mormon Found in Yemen?" (HTTP). Retrieved 2007-01-12. /reference
After checking this source, it was obvious to me that (looking past the shoddy scholarship and obvious bias) this was not a source fit for citing in Wikipedia. It does not meet wikipedia's verifiability standards because it's a self published source (angel-fire) without an author who is a professional researcher in a relevant field (sean's faith page?). gdavies
After wrestling with this paragraph for a considerable time I've opted to greatly reduce unless reliable evidence can be cited illustrating any serious critical argument along these lines.
"The current pronunciation of the location and tribal area is said to be Nihm rather than Nahom. Some critics state that it is extremely unlikely that the tribe associated with the place name changed its pronunciation. It is also stated that NHM ought to be pronounced Nachom rather than Nahom, which results in the name meaning something other than "to be sorry." Referring to the mourning associated with the burial of Ishmael, it is suggested that it would have been unlikely for the NHM tribe to "name themselves after a passing-through traveler who died there centuries later." referenced "Nahom: Evidence for the Book of Mormon Found in Yemen?" (HTTP). Retrieved 2007-01-12. The apparent contradiction of why the name ought to be pronounced Nachom while stating that the tribal pronunciation has not changed from Nihm is not addressed. /reference"
This source, as stated above is not fit for Wikipedia, but it is possible that these claims may be made in other places. Just to clarify for anyone who is interested, the Book of Mormon record makes it clear that Nahom was named prior to Lehi's party's arrival ("the place which was called Nahom", as opposed to "the place which they did call Nahom"). Further, one of the largest arabic burial sites is found in close proximity to the present location of Nihm, which accounts for the name of the site. It's entirely possible (and very probable) that the pronunciation of NHM in this area would change over the centuries (and perhaps among those who kept the record it changed as well). This paragraph also mentions a variant of "nachom." This is merely a variant of the inner consonant between "h" sounds found in biblical Hebrew (the one they spell as 'ch' not having an English equivalent). The cited article neglects this fact, fails to mention anyone who actually thinks it should be said this way and is representative of extremely poor and biased scholarship. gdavies 08:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Referring the the early work of Lynn Hilton from 1976, several critics state that NHM is only one of several sites that have been proposed by LDS scholars as Nahom. It is suggested that this casts doubt upon NHM being the only place now accepted by LDS scholars as the true location of Nahom. reference: Tanner (1996), p. 181. "Actually, there are two different locations which Mormon scholars have set forth as the 'place which was called Nahom.' . . . Nehhm is over 350 miles from Al Qunfudhah!" /reference; second reference, "Nahom: Evidence for the Book of Mormon Found in Yemen?" (HTTP). Retrieved 2007-01-12. /reference
Reference is to a Tanner? and also from the same angelfire page. The angelfire source isn't reliable or scholarly and should not be included. The Tanner's statement is vague and really irrelevant. The title itself is POV, I opted to shorten the paragraph to make it more direct while eliminating this source. Please elaborate or add sources/content! Thanks! gdavies 08:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently, a statement is sourced to Gerald and Sandra Tanner regarding the "mismatch" of the modern word and that found in the Book of Mormon. "only three of the five letters in Nehhm agree with the spelling Nahom. The second letter in Nehhm is e rather than a, and the fourth letter is h instead of o. The variant spellings of Nehem, Nehm, Nihm, Nahm and Naham, do not really help to solve the problem.” This statement is indicative of an embarrassing lack of Hebrew understanding. Counting letters and discounting the facts of historical semitic languages (that they did not have vowels) really doesn't prove anything and should not belong in this article. The Tanner's cannot be considered an authority in this field and this "argument" certainly does not deserve any attention in this setting. gdavies 08:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As you can see, it is very difficult to find good scholarly criticism of the Nahom/NHM connection in reliable printed sources. I was looking for a more credible source for the David Wright material on the "-om" possibly being a suffix. The problem is that Dr. Wright discusses all of this in a great level of detail in a chat group (which cannot be used as a source) and the only place I could find that linked to it or discussed it was the "seanie" page. I'll continue to search and see if Wright has published this material somewhere. I do agree that the "seanie" page is quite unscholarly however - I was simply trying to find as many criticisms as possible. The Tanner criticism, although it does indicate their total ignorance of Hebrew, does exist in a published source. Bochica 15:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Removing this section until we can get it sourced. I personally don't feel it's worthy of mention (esp. without sources). I understand this claim has been made by the Tanner's, but has no real validity. The Hilton's conjectured a location in Arabia (from general clues in the Book of Mormon) but (from what I understand, and like I said I need a source for this) they agreed with the new location immediately after evidence surfaced. The location is currently accepted by all LDS scholars I know of...
without sources this section is really unimportant, but if we can find some I think we can make it work. gdavies 22:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This is really kind of a combined concern with the two previous sections here... but I'm a little bit troubled by the weakness of the critical arguments. For instance, "Questions about why a compass (the Liahona) was needed if Lehi was following a well-known route." This doesn't really apply to Nahom specifically, but it's a general (pointless, subjective, etc.) criticism of the Book of Mormon's story. Also, the whole "heathen cemetery" thing... we don't know whether it was a "heathen" cemetery, when it was created, etc. I know that doesn't change the fact that these criticisms have been made, but we might need to qualify them further ("what they suggest was a heathen cemetery" or the like) or provide LDS response... any ideas on this one? gdavies 08:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Apologists are looking for possible locations that might match what Smith wrote. Your reference may be to the land of the Nihm tribe (hardly a good homonym and also unconvincing because 16: 34 refers to a location, not a general tribal area) in Yemen, or perhaps to Nehhm, an even less convincing homonym that ought to be pronounced nothing like “Nahom”. Keep looking.
The wikipedia criticism section is lacking. It fails to mention Chris Johnson's observation of the need for a baseline to establish any satistical significance, something Jeff Lindsay does not dispute. Also, pretty much anywhere along the seaboard is a square peg that could be pushed into fit, etc.
https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-significance-of-nahom-just-three.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI
There is as much, if not greater, satistical signficance to NHM and the BoM as there is Capt. Kidd/Comora Is. Apologists still provides no repeatable methodology that can be applied equaly to NHM and Capt Kidd a Comora. To apply their reasoning consistently, Pomeroy Tucker's testimony of Joseph Smith affinity for Capt. Kidd stories and the independent discovery of Comora and Moroni should have the same plausible connection. However, apologist dismisses it as a coincidence.
None of this is included in the wikipedia "criticism" section, which appears to read more like a pre-emptive apology.
See also Texas Sharpshooter. /info/en/?search=Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
Texas Sharpshooter, lets just start with NHM. A 140 miles inland is not “the same fertile parts”. Nehem is not a graveyard, it is a mountain range area and east of the famous incense trail. BOM doesn’t describe them moving across the mountains. The burial sites referenced with the inscriptions aren’t in Nehem. The altar does NOT have Nehem written on it. Objectively false. An altar was found. And it has ancient writings believed to resemble the English sounds N H M. But this refers to a family/tribe, not a physical place. And it’s not known that this tribal name matches with the Nehem place name. A whole bunch of liberties are being taken to correlate data for which no relationship has actually been established. That is just for starters on NHM, we could go on and on with the rest. It is all Texas Sharpshooter, self declared bullseyes.
See also, Chris Johnson's demonstration regarding debunking of the critic's connection of the 1827 Anthon Book, how that "connection" was stronger than NHM and it has been debunked much to apologist's delight.
http://www.mormonthink.com/coincidence.htm
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/6jd4fm/budding_apologists_create_book_of_mormon_nahom/
Jeff Lindsay refuses to acknowledge Andrew's patient, mature, and rational responses to Neal Rappleye and Stephen Smooth as found in the link above. Utterly incapable of rejoinding Andrew's retorts, Jeff goes to extensive efforts to censor Andrew and engage in ad hominem attack by labeling any reference to Andrew as "hostile". Though, Jeff did verbosely agree that Andrew was correct that to state the altar is not in Nehem.
Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smooth, Jeff Lindsay, et. al, are like little childen staring up at the clouds convincing each other they see the coulds form the same shapes and then self-declaring these shapes as “complex evidence” of some invisible hand modling their imagined forms. Their non-doctrinal beliefs do nothing but mock and ridicule our Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As Latter-day Saints all we can do is inform the world they do not represent our Church. Such Bible code style (which curoiusly also relies on missing vowels and vowel morphing) connection fabrication is not something our Church encourages or considers faith promoting. Quite the opposite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.149.6.36 ( talk) 19:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
As Doug Weller points out, Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smooth, and Jeff Lindsay are unreliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.149.6.36 ( talk) 19:18, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.210.47.163 ( talk) 20:56, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
I just made some minor edits plus did some restructuring. I think that I improved the article thereby, but I think that there needs to be further restructuring and rewriting. I can see that these things need to be done, but I don't see how to do it at this time. I don't see major problems, but they are more than minor issues; somewhere in between. Someone please look over the article and see if you can fix it. Thanks. Val42 17:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
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The link to another wikipedia page references John Welch. Archaelogist or anthropologist? Social Archaeologist isn't the same thing as anthropologist? Furthermore, if John Welch is the implied reference, it would be "a" LDS anthropologist not "some".
https://archaeologysfu.ca/john-welch/ 201.149.6.36 ( talk) 13:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nahom article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
One critical position is that the last two letters in the name Nahom are a suffix, and that the resulting root would actually be NH rather than NHM. This position is supported by the presence of a number of place names in the New World portion of the Book of Mormon narrative that end with the letters "om". reference "Nahom: Evidence for the Book of Mormon Found in Yemen?" (HTTP). Retrieved 2007-01-12. /reference
After checking this source, it was obvious to me that (looking past the shoddy scholarship and obvious bias) this was not a source fit for citing in Wikipedia. It does not meet wikipedia's verifiability standards because it's a self published source (angel-fire) without an author who is a professional researcher in a relevant field (sean's faith page?). gdavies
After wrestling with this paragraph for a considerable time I've opted to greatly reduce unless reliable evidence can be cited illustrating any serious critical argument along these lines.
"The current pronunciation of the location and tribal area is said to be Nihm rather than Nahom. Some critics state that it is extremely unlikely that the tribe associated with the place name changed its pronunciation. It is also stated that NHM ought to be pronounced Nachom rather than Nahom, which results in the name meaning something other than "to be sorry." Referring to the mourning associated with the burial of Ishmael, it is suggested that it would have been unlikely for the NHM tribe to "name themselves after a passing-through traveler who died there centuries later." referenced "Nahom: Evidence for the Book of Mormon Found in Yemen?" (HTTP). Retrieved 2007-01-12. The apparent contradiction of why the name ought to be pronounced Nachom while stating that the tribal pronunciation has not changed from Nihm is not addressed. /reference"
This source, as stated above is not fit for Wikipedia, but it is possible that these claims may be made in other places. Just to clarify for anyone who is interested, the Book of Mormon record makes it clear that Nahom was named prior to Lehi's party's arrival ("the place which was called Nahom", as opposed to "the place which they did call Nahom"). Further, one of the largest arabic burial sites is found in close proximity to the present location of Nihm, which accounts for the name of the site. It's entirely possible (and very probable) that the pronunciation of NHM in this area would change over the centuries (and perhaps among those who kept the record it changed as well). This paragraph also mentions a variant of "nachom." This is merely a variant of the inner consonant between "h" sounds found in biblical Hebrew (the one they spell as 'ch' not having an English equivalent). The cited article neglects this fact, fails to mention anyone who actually thinks it should be said this way and is representative of extremely poor and biased scholarship. gdavies 08:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Referring the the early work of Lynn Hilton from 1976, several critics state that NHM is only one of several sites that have been proposed by LDS scholars as Nahom. It is suggested that this casts doubt upon NHM being the only place now accepted by LDS scholars as the true location of Nahom. reference: Tanner (1996), p. 181. "Actually, there are two different locations which Mormon scholars have set forth as the 'place which was called Nahom.' . . . Nehhm is over 350 miles from Al Qunfudhah!" /reference; second reference, "Nahom: Evidence for the Book of Mormon Found in Yemen?" (HTTP). Retrieved 2007-01-12. /reference
Reference is to a Tanner? and also from the same angelfire page. The angelfire source isn't reliable or scholarly and should not be included. The Tanner's statement is vague and really irrelevant. The title itself is POV, I opted to shorten the paragraph to make it more direct while eliminating this source. Please elaborate or add sources/content! Thanks! gdavies 08:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently, a statement is sourced to Gerald and Sandra Tanner regarding the "mismatch" of the modern word and that found in the Book of Mormon. "only three of the five letters in Nehhm agree with the spelling Nahom. The second letter in Nehhm is e rather than a, and the fourth letter is h instead of o. The variant spellings of Nehem, Nehm, Nihm, Nahm and Naham, do not really help to solve the problem.” This statement is indicative of an embarrassing lack of Hebrew understanding. Counting letters and discounting the facts of historical semitic languages (that they did not have vowels) really doesn't prove anything and should not belong in this article. The Tanner's cannot be considered an authority in this field and this "argument" certainly does not deserve any attention in this setting. gdavies 08:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As you can see, it is very difficult to find good scholarly criticism of the Nahom/NHM connection in reliable printed sources. I was looking for a more credible source for the David Wright material on the "-om" possibly being a suffix. The problem is that Dr. Wright discusses all of this in a great level of detail in a chat group (which cannot be used as a source) and the only place I could find that linked to it or discussed it was the "seanie" page. I'll continue to search and see if Wright has published this material somewhere. I do agree that the "seanie" page is quite unscholarly however - I was simply trying to find as many criticisms as possible. The Tanner criticism, although it does indicate their total ignorance of Hebrew, does exist in a published source. Bochica 15:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Removing this section until we can get it sourced. I personally don't feel it's worthy of mention (esp. without sources). I understand this claim has been made by the Tanner's, but has no real validity. The Hilton's conjectured a location in Arabia (from general clues in the Book of Mormon) but (from what I understand, and like I said I need a source for this) they agreed with the new location immediately after evidence surfaced. The location is currently accepted by all LDS scholars I know of...
without sources this section is really unimportant, but if we can find some I think we can make it work. gdavies 22:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This is really kind of a combined concern with the two previous sections here... but I'm a little bit troubled by the weakness of the critical arguments. For instance, "Questions about why a compass (the Liahona) was needed if Lehi was following a well-known route." This doesn't really apply to Nahom specifically, but it's a general (pointless, subjective, etc.) criticism of the Book of Mormon's story. Also, the whole "heathen cemetery" thing... we don't know whether it was a "heathen" cemetery, when it was created, etc. I know that doesn't change the fact that these criticisms have been made, but we might need to qualify them further ("what they suggest was a heathen cemetery" or the like) or provide LDS response... any ideas on this one? gdavies 08:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Apologists are looking for possible locations that might match what Smith wrote. Your reference may be to the land of the Nihm tribe (hardly a good homonym and also unconvincing because 16: 34 refers to a location, not a general tribal area) in Yemen, or perhaps to Nehhm, an even less convincing homonym that ought to be pronounced nothing like “Nahom”. Keep looking.
The wikipedia criticism section is lacking. It fails to mention Chris Johnson's observation of the need for a baseline to establish any satistical significance, something Jeff Lindsay does not dispute. Also, pretty much anywhere along the seaboard is a square peg that could be pushed into fit, etc.
https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-significance-of-nahom-just-three.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI
There is as much, if not greater, satistical signficance to NHM and the BoM as there is Capt. Kidd/Comora Is. Apologists still provides no repeatable methodology that can be applied equaly to NHM and Capt Kidd a Comora. To apply their reasoning consistently, Pomeroy Tucker's testimony of Joseph Smith affinity for Capt. Kidd stories and the independent discovery of Comora and Moroni should have the same plausible connection. However, apologist dismisses it as a coincidence.
None of this is included in the wikipedia "criticism" section, which appears to read more like a pre-emptive apology.
See also Texas Sharpshooter. /info/en/?search=Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
Texas Sharpshooter, lets just start with NHM. A 140 miles inland is not “the same fertile parts”. Nehem is not a graveyard, it is a mountain range area and east of the famous incense trail. BOM doesn’t describe them moving across the mountains. The burial sites referenced with the inscriptions aren’t in Nehem. The altar does NOT have Nehem written on it. Objectively false. An altar was found. And it has ancient writings believed to resemble the English sounds N H M. But this refers to a family/tribe, not a physical place. And it’s not known that this tribal name matches with the Nehem place name. A whole bunch of liberties are being taken to correlate data for which no relationship has actually been established. That is just for starters on NHM, we could go on and on with the rest. It is all Texas Sharpshooter, self declared bullseyes.
See also, Chris Johnson's demonstration regarding debunking of the critic's connection of the 1827 Anthon Book, how that "connection" was stronger than NHM and it has been debunked much to apologist's delight.
http://www.mormonthink.com/coincidence.htm
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/6jd4fm/budding_apologists_create_book_of_mormon_nahom/
Jeff Lindsay refuses to acknowledge Andrew's patient, mature, and rational responses to Neal Rappleye and Stephen Smooth as found in the link above. Utterly incapable of rejoinding Andrew's retorts, Jeff goes to extensive efforts to censor Andrew and engage in ad hominem attack by labeling any reference to Andrew as "hostile". Though, Jeff did verbosely agree that Andrew was correct that to state the altar is not in Nehem.
Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smooth, Jeff Lindsay, et. al, are like little childen staring up at the clouds convincing each other they see the coulds form the same shapes and then self-declaring these shapes as “complex evidence” of some invisible hand modling their imagined forms. Their non-doctrinal beliefs do nothing but mock and ridicule our Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As Latter-day Saints all we can do is inform the world they do not represent our Church. Such Bible code style (which curoiusly also relies on missing vowels and vowel morphing) connection fabrication is not something our Church encourages or considers faith promoting. Quite the opposite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.149.6.36 ( talk) 19:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
As Doug Weller points out, Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smooth, and Jeff Lindsay are unreliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.149.6.36 ( talk) 19:18, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.210.47.163 ( talk) 20:56, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
I just made some minor edits plus did some restructuring. I think that I improved the article thereby, but I think that there needs to be further restructuring and rewriting. I can see that these things need to be done, but I don't see how to do it at this time. I don't see major problems, but they are more than minor issues; somewhere in between. Someone please look over the article and see if you can fix it. Thanks. Val42 17:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
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The link to another wikipedia page references John Welch. Archaelogist or anthropologist? Social Archaeologist isn't the same thing as anthropologist? Furthermore, if John Welch is the implied reference, it would be "a" LDS anthropologist not "some".
https://archaeologysfu.ca/john-welch/ 201.149.6.36 ( talk) 13:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)