The terms "
extremist", "
terrorist" and "
freedom fighter" should be avoided or used with care. Editors discussing the use of these terms are advised to familiarize themselves with the
guideline, and discuss objections at the
relevant talkpage, not here. If you feel this article represents an exception, then that discussion properly belongs here.
Warning: active arbitration remedies
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the
Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
You must be logged-in, have 500 edits and an account age of 30 days
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in
limited circumstances)
If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
this noticeboard.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on
terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles
The article has a link labelled Hamas’ ‘surprise attack on Israel’ but this links to the article for the whole war rather than the article ‘2023 Hamas attack on Israel’. Seems like it should be the latter.
2600:1017:B83B:A473:6073:D305:EEC7:5AA (
talk) 19:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Requested move 6 November 2023
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nahal Oz massacre →
Nahal Oz attack – The title of this article is out of step with the contents it describes (
WP:NCE) and the sources (
WP:NPOV). The bulk of what this page describes is an attack on military base, and the bulk of the casualties it describes are military personnel - and I do not see any sources using the word "massacre" to describe the events at the military base. The rest of the material is about a related attack on the nearby kibbutz, but even in the sources for this the word "massacre" is not obviously forthcoming. The only extant source that uses "massacre" in its headline does so, in the body, in reference to the festival massacre.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 11:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.Reading Beans (
talk) 11:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)reply
There is a series of similar and similarly named articles. But as you point out, this one is about attacks on both a kibbutz and a nearby military base. Possibly the article should be split?
The body says that most soldiers at the base were unarmed and almost all were killed, so frankly "massacre" does not seem off the mark either way. –
St.nerol (
talk) 23:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)reply
We currently only have Israeli (and Russian?) sources confirming this, as with many of the other details on the page, so I'm not sure how much stock should be put in it. A split is a potential option. The bigger issue is that there is little to no source support for the term 'massacre' in general, which makes it something of an
WP:NPOV issue.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 12:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Not a massacre according to sources.
Selfstudier (
talk) 15:28, 8 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Ok, this is silly. First, it is ridiculous to suggest that only coverage in Israel is an issue -- that's where the event happened. So if there's only coverage in Palestinian, American, Egyptian sources for an event in that country, is it a problem or the result of how news is gathered? It's also a reflection of systemic bias against Israeli sources -- not Israeli military sources, but sources solely because they are Israeli. Second, RS across the political spectrum use the term "massacre":
Haaretz (left),
Israel Hayom (right),
Jerusalem Post (center),
The Atlantic (USA),
Le Monde (France), among others. Third, from a
WP:SKYBLUE perspective, how is the slaughter of (at least) 12 civilians a military "attack"? Beggars the mind.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Longhornsg (
talk •
contribs) 21:09, 8 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Replying to unsigned, only source out of those 5 using the word massacre is Haaretz which uses it as a headline and then only in passing rather than as a name, Hayom is in the headline only
WP:HEADLINES, JP refers to the Simchat Torah massacre, neither Atlantic nor Le Monde use the word at all. Evidently not skyblue.
Selfstudier (
talk) 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The death of 12 civilians in a war would find difficulty being classed as a 'massacre' especially as the main target of the attack as declared by Hamas was the Nahal Oz base, this is especially true when you consider that many civilians in Nahal Oz are military reservists and that some have duties as local security personnel for the settlement. When you consider this altogether, classing this as a 'massacre' rather than a battle or an offensive is absurd. Hamas fighters would have hardly been interested in running around killing people randomly in the midst of the most daring offensive they have ever done when they know every second counts. Renaming this as the 'Nahal Oz Offensive' or 'Battle of Nahal Oz' is more appropriate especailly considering that the current Israeli attack on Gaza is labelled as an 'Offensive' rather than a 'Massacre'. Surely if you're willing to say that the death of 12 civilians in this settlement is a 'massacre' then you'd be willing to say that the death of 12 thousand Palestinian civilians so far is a 'massacre' too? We need some proportionality and lack of bias in naming these events as the name matters a lot and calling this a 'massacre' while calling the Israeli attack an 'offensive' is just completely disproportionate. We also need to consider the effects of Hamas having zero media or diplomatic representation compared to Israel having an infinite amount of it on how we obtain and present our sources. Does Hamas having less outlets to present their versions of the truth mean that we should completely ignore their side of the story? Including their intentions and the route of their offense which are of paramount importance and which they have already declared? I think this approach needs to change if we are to present a clear and unbiased view of these events to readers.
Odin818 (
talk) 20:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose There are plenty of Israeli and international sources documenting the massacre and death of civilians in Nahal Oz.
Zbase4 (
talk) 21:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisting comment: The consensus is leaning towards a move. Relisting for broader consensus.
Reading Beans (
talk) 11:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support for now as the current name is a
WP:POVNAME and doesn't appear to be the
WP:COMMONNAME either. When I google "nahal oz oct 7" (a fairly neutral search term), the top results are:
Note I omitted several reliable links, including several from the
Ha'aretz, because they are behind a paywall that I can't access. VRtalk 22:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Also BBC
uses "attack" but not "massacre".VRtalk 22:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hamas as perpetrator
This is rather vague and monolithic. What is it supposed to mean? Does it mean that the Al-Qassam Brigades and no one else was involved, or what? And if so, based on what?
Iskandar323 (
talk) 10:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Al Qassam Brigades is one of the wings of Hamas, so they're venn diagram intersection where Al Qassam is a smaller circle inside of a bigger circle Hamas. It's a proper subset. Andre🚐 10:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Verifiability
Most sources are primary news sources, and all but ~2 do not say anything about a specific "Nahal Oz attack" or "attack on Nahal Oz", but rather discuss the broader attack of 7 October. For this article to justify its standalone existence, multiple reliable third-party sources would need to be included that specifically discuss a "Nahal Oz attack", otherwise we're left with either
WP:OR or the parroting back of biased news coverage.
Dylanvt (
talk) 15:20, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Disagree, it's notable enough on its own and meets GNG. Andre🚐 19:59, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
What do you disagree with? Do you disagree that the vast majority of the sources don't say anything about a specific "Nahal Oz attack" or "attack on Nahal Oz"? Do you disagree that we would need multiple reliable third-party sources that specifically discuss a "Nahal Oz attack" to establish notability?
Dylanvt (
talk) 21:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The article has 18 sources to establish notability, which is sufficient. There are quite a few articles just about the attack on this kibbutz.
[1][2][3][4][5] "Attack on Nahal Oz" is just as valid a term to substantiate
WP:SIGCOV which clearly exists, so I disagree with your arguments wholesale. Andre🚐 21:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Proposed merger
I propose merging this page into
2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel as has been done with most similar pages detailing individual incidents on October 7.
Riposte97 (
talk) 02:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The statement that "most similar pages [have been merged]" is not strictly accurate. Please see my reply to a similar comment on
Talk:Netiv HaAsara massacre#Proposed merger where three similar articles had AfDs closed as keep last week (where merge was an option) and which I’m now updating to bring to wiki-quality. Although I haven’t reviewed this article in detail (I will once finished with the others) this one has 3-4 more sources than those did, and seems to be much better written. Therefore even before I update it, all things being equal it is more likely than those to not pass a merge/delete vote.
Ayenaee (
talk) 07:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The terms "
extremist", "
terrorist" and "
freedom fighter" should be avoided or used with care. Editors discussing the use of these terms are advised to familiarize themselves with the
guideline, and discuss objections at the
relevant talkpage, not here. If you feel this article represents an exception, then that discussion properly belongs here.
Warning: active arbitration remedies
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the
Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
You must be logged-in, have 500 edits and an account age of 30 days
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in
limited circumstances)
If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
this noticeboard.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on
terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles
The article has a link labelled Hamas’ ‘surprise attack on Israel’ but this links to the article for the whole war rather than the article ‘2023 Hamas attack on Israel’. Seems like it should be the latter.
2600:1017:B83B:A473:6073:D305:EEC7:5AA (
talk) 19:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Requested move 6 November 2023
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nahal Oz massacre →
Nahal Oz attack – The title of this article is out of step with the contents it describes (
WP:NCE) and the sources (
WP:NPOV). The bulk of what this page describes is an attack on military base, and the bulk of the casualties it describes are military personnel - and I do not see any sources using the word "massacre" to describe the events at the military base. The rest of the material is about a related attack on the nearby kibbutz, but even in the sources for this the word "massacre" is not obviously forthcoming. The only extant source that uses "massacre" in its headline does so, in the body, in reference to the festival massacre.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 11:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.Reading Beans (
talk) 11:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)reply
There is a series of similar and similarly named articles. But as you point out, this one is about attacks on both a kibbutz and a nearby military base. Possibly the article should be split?
The body says that most soldiers at the base were unarmed and almost all were killed, so frankly "massacre" does not seem off the mark either way. –
St.nerol (
talk) 23:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)reply
We currently only have Israeli (and Russian?) sources confirming this, as with many of the other details on the page, so I'm not sure how much stock should be put in it. A split is a potential option. The bigger issue is that there is little to no source support for the term 'massacre' in general, which makes it something of an
WP:NPOV issue.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 12:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Not a massacre according to sources.
Selfstudier (
talk) 15:28, 8 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Ok, this is silly. First, it is ridiculous to suggest that only coverage in Israel is an issue -- that's where the event happened. So if there's only coverage in Palestinian, American, Egyptian sources for an event in that country, is it a problem or the result of how news is gathered? It's also a reflection of systemic bias against Israeli sources -- not Israeli military sources, but sources solely because they are Israeli. Second, RS across the political spectrum use the term "massacre":
Haaretz (left),
Israel Hayom (right),
Jerusalem Post (center),
The Atlantic (USA),
Le Monde (France), among others. Third, from a
WP:SKYBLUE perspective, how is the slaughter of (at least) 12 civilians a military "attack"? Beggars the mind.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Longhornsg (
talk •
contribs) 21:09, 8 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Replying to unsigned, only source out of those 5 using the word massacre is Haaretz which uses it as a headline and then only in passing rather than as a name, Hayom is in the headline only
WP:HEADLINES, JP refers to the Simchat Torah massacre, neither Atlantic nor Le Monde use the word at all. Evidently not skyblue.
Selfstudier (
talk) 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The death of 12 civilians in a war would find difficulty being classed as a 'massacre' especially as the main target of the attack as declared by Hamas was the Nahal Oz base, this is especially true when you consider that many civilians in Nahal Oz are military reservists and that some have duties as local security personnel for the settlement. When you consider this altogether, classing this as a 'massacre' rather than a battle or an offensive is absurd. Hamas fighters would have hardly been interested in running around killing people randomly in the midst of the most daring offensive they have ever done when they know every second counts. Renaming this as the 'Nahal Oz Offensive' or 'Battle of Nahal Oz' is more appropriate especailly considering that the current Israeli attack on Gaza is labelled as an 'Offensive' rather than a 'Massacre'. Surely if you're willing to say that the death of 12 civilians in this settlement is a 'massacre' then you'd be willing to say that the death of 12 thousand Palestinian civilians so far is a 'massacre' too? We need some proportionality and lack of bias in naming these events as the name matters a lot and calling this a 'massacre' while calling the Israeli attack an 'offensive' is just completely disproportionate. We also need to consider the effects of Hamas having zero media or diplomatic representation compared to Israel having an infinite amount of it on how we obtain and present our sources. Does Hamas having less outlets to present their versions of the truth mean that we should completely ignore their side of the story? Including their intentions and the route of their offense which are of paramount importance and which they have already declared? I think this approach needs to change if we are to present a clear and unbiased view of these events to readers.
Odin818 (
talk) 20:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose There are plenty of Israeli and international sources documenting the massacre and death of civilians in Nahal Oz.
Zbase4 (
talk) 21:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisting comment: The consensus is leaning towards a move. Relisting for broader consensus.
Reading Beans (
talk) 11:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support for now as the current name is a
WP:POVNAME and doesn't appear to be the
WP:COMMONNAME either. When I google "nahal oz oct 7" (a fairly neutral search term), the top results are:
Note I omitted several reliable links, including several from the
Ha'aretz, because they are behind a paywall that I can't access. VRtalk 22:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Also BBC
uses "attack" but not "massacre".VRtalk 22:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hamas as perpetrator
This is rather vague and monolithic. What is it supposed to mean? Does it mean that the Al-Qassam Brigades and no one else was involved, or what? And if so, based on what?
Iskandar323 (
talk) 10:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Al Qassam Brigades is one of the wings of Hamas, so they're venn diagram intersection where Al Qassam is a smaller circle inside of a bigger circle Hamas. It's a proper subset. Andre🚐 10:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Verifiability
Most sources are primary news sources, and all but ~2 do not say anything about a specific "Nahal Oz attack" or "attack on Nahal Oz", but rather discuss the broader attack of 7 October. For this article to justify its standalone existence, multiple reliable third-party sources would need to be included that specifically discuss a "Nahal Oz attack", otherwise we're left with either
WP:OR or the parroting back of biased news coverage.
Dylanvt (
talk) 15:20, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Disagree, it's notable enough on its own and meets GNG. Andre🚐 19:59, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
What do you disagree with? Do you disagree that the vast majority of the sources don't say anything about a specific "Nahal Oz attack" or "attack on Nahal Oz"? Do you disagree that we would need multiple reliable third-party sources that specifically discuss a "Nahal Oz attack" to establish notability?
Dylanvt (
talk) 21:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The article has 18 sources to establish notability, which is sufficient. There are quite a few articles just about the attack on this kibbutz.
[1][2][3][4][5] "Attack on Nahal Oz" is just as valid a term to substantiate
WP:SIGCOV which clearly exists, so I disagree with your arguments wholesale. Andre🚐 21:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Proposed merger
I propose merging this page into
2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel as has been done with most similar pages detailing individual incidents on October 7.
Riposte97 (
talk) 02:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The statement that "most similar pages [have been merged]" is not strictly accurate. Please see my reply to a similar comment on
Talk:Netiv HaAsara massacre#Proposed merger where three similar articles had AfDs closed as keep last week (where merge was an option) and which I’m now updating to bring to wiki-quality. Although I haven’t reviewed this article in detail (I will once finished with the others) this one has 3-4 more sources than those did, and seems to be much better written. Therefore even before I update it, all things being equal it is more likely than those to not pass a merge/delete vote.
Ayenaee (
talk) 07:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)reply