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Should the list of archetypes not be lengthened to include things like one-eyed gods and severed hands? I myself would do it, but I am reluctant to get bogged down in writing articles on them. elvenscout742 23:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know that the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot fit into mythology, although Grendel does. I am not sure why that should be though.
and if this page is going to identify Christian Myths should the link just go to Christianity, since the author is equating "some people consider it a collection of myths" with "some people believe in Norse gods"? --MichaelTinkler
Doesn't mythology differ from religion by the absence of the preaching of some kind of philosophy?
While I do disagree that Christian belief is a Mythology, I do agree that Christian Mythology exists. The story of King Arthur, for example, qualifies. Many stories of verbal history exist, used in explaining the circumstances of scripture. The purported names of the Wise Men are an example of this. I do think that Hinduism as a whole has a more explicit connection to mythology than Christian belief. Hinduism does not have the same focus on the historicity of their scripture as Christianity does, in my experience, and according to my informants. In principle, the christian understanding of scripture holds that scripture is a record of specific events that can be tied to a particular place and time. To my knowledge, Hinduism does not have this as an explicit part of their hermeneutics. I believe the book "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell is relevant. -- BenBaker
How can you say that ancient Graeco-Roman tales are myths, but Jewish or Christian tales are not? They are the same phenomena. The only problem arises because people presume that myths are false, and don't want to call Jewish or Christian tales false (although they seem to have no problem with expressing the same view about the tales of the religions of antiquity.) But the definition of a myth (at least as used in anthropology, etc.) is a story of significance to a culture, that somehow encodes its values. The Bible is full of myths; that doesn't mean it is false, it merely means that its stories are significant to the culture it represents. -- SJK
I think I already agreed that there is such a thing as Christian mythology. I think myth as you are using it is different than mythology. I think the loose way you are using mythology is loose enough that I am justified in agreeing that you hold that the Theory of Evolution is a myth. (it does tell a significant story to a culture... <grin>) I would like to see the reaction if you state that on the page for that article though, as I expect quite an uproar. -- BenBaker
Um, I created a page on Christian Mythology before I saw this debate. Hope no one minds!
On an unrelated topic, I don't think that "wizard" should qualify as a The earliest reference to them listed in their article is in 1982, and if fictional species that recent and relatively little-known count as myt"race." Traditionally, a wizard is a person who has a skill or practices an art -- the aptitude may be inborn, but so is an aptitude for music or chess. Not a race, I say! -- Cayzle
On a related topic, I'm a little iffy about including wemics in here too. Weren't they created pretty much from scratch by TSR and/or Sierra for their games? I would think that to qualify as mythology there should be some significant group of people who at one point believed that it was a real race. TSR was well-known for appropriating mythical creatures from all over the place to incorporate into D&D, so perhaps a reference can be found somewhere to a real mythical origin for wemics? - BD (addendum: maybe not so out of place, actually, since the Mythology article already lists Star Trek as a piece of modern mythology. :)
I wish I knew if D&D wemics and Sierra liontaurs were originated independently, or were inspired by a common unknown source, or what. But I agree with your point -- if Star Trek is mentionable, why not wemics? -- Cayzle
So, should this page now be redirected to an article titled " Stories?" I think it's taking political correctness to an insane level to be eradicating the word "mythology" from all the sub-articles. - BD
Well, as I said before, religious believers should not have a problem with the word "myth" as long as it's not talking about a historical story (because, really, it would sound very weird to talk about "The Myth of the War of 1812," even if we can derive a moral from the events of that war), but I have to disagree with your implied assertion that this is all about political correctness - it's not. I think you have one side (people who, generally speaking, don't believe in Christianity) thinking that it's unfair that Christian stories are labelled "stories" while Greek ones are labeled "myths," while on the other side you have people who do believe in Christianity, to whatever degree, who are very hurt to have what they believe to be true history labeled myths. Since I personally see the Bible as (mostly) allegory, I have a much easier time accepting the word "myths," but please try to remember how hard that word may be to accept for some people. This is not a meaningless argument.
The current Christian Mythology or Christian Stories page, whichever it is named now, appears to be talking about stories which are fairly commonly believed to be fictional, so it's not much of a problem. But, BD, I urge you to think for a minute about something you believe in, such as perhaps your University Degree. How would you feel if someone called your obtaining of a degree "The Myth of BD's University Education?" I'm sure the story of your education could be used to illustrate several important moral points, so it fits the definition of "myth." Still, the connotation is hard to take. -- Alex Kennedy
I'd think "Cool, I've achieved the status of myth!" :) But on a more serious note, I do understand that some people would find the combination of the words "Christian mythology" to be offensive. I just think that we shouldn't be focusing on trying to ensure that this encyclopedia offends noone, and should instead be trying to "call things as they are" to as much of a degree it is possible. I suppose the issue of the Christian mythology/stories thing can be debated, but when that debate results in "Greek mythology" being considered an offensive and/or inaccurate description of Greek mythology then I think it's gone a little overboard.
More discussion should probably be conducted on Wikipedia Religion and Mythology standards, which I didn't notice until after I first posted to this Talk subpage. :) - BD
I'm considering fitting scientific mythology somewhere into the 'Modern mythology' section instead of just having a link to it. Any objections/suggestions? --Chris
Along the lines of mythology is the term "Shared Universe." One example of this is the character Conan the Barbarian. He was created by one person, but later novelized by more than one successive writer. Star Trek can also be considered a shared universe in that many authors have penned Star Trek novels. --E.C.
Perhaps the issue as been beaten to death now, but would there be any objections to using J. Campbell's definition of mythology (one of several he provides in his work) as "an organization of images metaphoric of experience, action, and fulfillment of the human spirit in the field of a given culture at a given time." This definition has the advantage that it subsumes religion as a subordinate category of myth, that is as the application of mythology within a narrow field of human experience and action. With respect to three of the world's great religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they insist on the historicity of their myths, in other words, on the actuality of their metaphors in the fields of time and space.
Bruno
Europe sports a Fjort mythology. What's a Fjort? Ain't in my Swedish dictionary. -- IHCOYC 02:22, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Why is Incan mythology found under North America? Do you folks know something that I've missed? Mats 15:14, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The Amazons would have to be my most favorite story to hear from the myth. I haven't seen anything about the Amazons on the site and I think it would be interesting to site some informations about them. They were firece and should dominate over the weak. They were warriors and very rare of their time.
Shouldn't Polish mythology and Slavic mythology be merged? At least the entries for gods should, as they are mostly just name variations of the same god (compare: Crnobog and Czarnobóg or Piorun and Perun). Ausir 21:02, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This is a rather erroneous view of the nature of myth. For example, one does not need to believe that Jesus was a living person to read, say, Jefferson's Bible, and come away with the truth that he was trying to teach. One also doesn't have to believe that there was really a place called Hobbiton, that Frodo was a living man (or hobbit), and the events actually occurred. After all, people tend to call stories myths because they are almost certainly fictitious - but they still refer to them because, however fictitious they may be, there is still value to be found in them, and it is that value, independent of whether the events really happened, which is what is important. If I had more time, I'd rewrite this article in its entirity to remove that 'myth must be true' bias that pervades it. HOW MYTHS ARE SO LONG AND INTERESTING?
I'm interested in knowing how myths were and how they were able to stay in each generation but in each generation having it to grow. i mean did the parents add stuff down while the way or if the children added it on to make it more interesting-DS
Should this page contain a brief mention of modern constructed mythologies? I am thinking mainly of the mythology of Middle-Earth (that is told in The Silmarillion) created by J.R.R.Tolkien, though there are others. -- Ingolemo 11:39, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Is there a reason why we don't have anything on myths of the Canaanites??
I'm wondering if someone can help me out here. I'm writing a thing about how mythology is used in advertising and I was wondering if anyone has any good insight or anything they'd like to contribute on the subject. For example, how Midas (the car parts place) has its slogan "trust the Midas touch," to emphasize that they know what they are doing and will make your car as good as gold. I could really use some more examples like that, but I'd appreciate anything you'd like to throw in. -M
The following phrase (referring to Neopagan beliefs formed in imitation of older pagan groups) was deleted recently as allegedly POV: "though the modern versions of these beliefs usually have little to no resemblance to the originals" -- What part of that is supposedly POV? DreamGuy 11:57, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
because its heavily POV. Gabrielsimon 07:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
the burden of proof is not with me, it is you who must proove that it isnt. Gabrielsimon 07:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I think User:Jwrosenzweig's modification of the phrase in question adequately removes any possible claim of it being PoV, and adds a good extra bit of information. DreamGuy 07:52, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
i agree.
Gabrielsimon
07:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
DreamGuy, see here and here, and also any other good dictionary, such as this. You once insulted me on this same issue, saying I should go edit ja.wikipedia.org if I want to use Japanese definitions of words, clearly ignoring the purpose of my contrast, and yet you now refer to Ancient Greek definitions of words. I don't know why "mythology" means "A body or collection of myths belonging to a people", given the "-ology" suffix, but it simply does, and it certainly is more common, given that at least ninety-five percent of the word's usage in this article go by it, mostly after this point, and the title of that section even uses that "akward plural about studying myths" of yours. I'm more mature than to start an edit war with you over this, so I will simply wait for you to realise you are wrong in this instance. elvenscout742 22:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
howaboutthe plural word mythos ( ifthas whatthe word is) would be less clumbsy sounding... Gabrielsimon 00:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
no no, the word mythos, as a plural of mythology. Gabrielsimon 00:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have to side with Elvenscout on this: from my experience, "mythology" is often used to denote a collection of myths with a common heritage or subject. Glancing at my bookshelf, here are some examples from scholars (who would be more likely to use the word in its "proper" sense than in its colloquial sense) who use the word "mythology" in the sense of "a collection of myths":
When the word "myth" is used in the title of a collection of myths, it is almost always contrasted with another element:
One interesting usage was that by G.S. Kirk for his book-long study of Greek mythology -- Myth. If "mythology" should properly be understood only in the sense Dreamguy is arguing, wouldn't Kirk have instead called his book Mythology? -- llywrch 17:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Elvenscout and llywrch. Michael Simpson in the introduction of his translation of Gods and Heroes of the Greeks: The Library of Apollodorus, describes the Library as giving "a straightforward account of Greek mythology from the birth of the gods to the death of Odysseus." I don't think he meant to say that it gives an account of the study of Greek myths, since clearly the Library gives an account of the myths, not their study. Robert Graves in his The Greek Myths says: "A study of Greek mythology should begin with a consideration of ... political and religious systems ...". I don't think he was referring to the study of the study of Greek myths. Walter Burkert's, Structure and History in Greek Mythology and Ritual, seems to use the word in the sense of a collection of related myths. If he were using the term to here to mean the study of myths, the title would be "Structure and History of Greek Mythology ..." — Paul August ☎ 19:41, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
Yet another lame edit war, I believe compromise is in order. Therefore, mythological beliefs by regions could placate opposing parties. Dbraceyrules 20:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Can what we have now be left as is? The opening paragraph is fine (even if it does seem to place a bit more emphasis on the definition favoured by DreamGuy), the bit about Tarzan refers to "[the series] of Tarzan" (with the name still used in the same way is it is on the page to which it links), and the list "Mythologies by region" is given its proper name, as the items mentioned in it are not "myths" (i.e. stories) but "mythologies" (i.e. groups of such stories from the regions mentioned). Surely, DreamGuy, you must except that if all those involved accept you acknowledge the other definition, it must at least be worth mentioning in the introduction. I don't want to have to take this to any higher powers than are already involved, and your definition is still given priority. I do not refuse to acknowledge it, I only ask that the other be given equal weight - something I have advocated but you have constantly opposed. Can we just call it quits?
(Oh, yeah, and I think the introduction still needs a bit of minor work on its wording and formatting, and I think it literally denotes and originally denoted nothing more than the telling of stories, as it was first used by Plato. I might work on that later. I won't do anything to damage the current neutrality of it, though.)
elvenscout742 23:44, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
You see, DreamGuy, this is just what I'm talking about. While I want to discuss things peacefully here, you insist on getting your way in the article proper. Consensus is against you, and I have explained precisely why on a number of occasions. Since you are in a minority, here, you cannot expect to get what you want just because you unilaterally change the article without listening to anyone else first. The Tarzan thing is so utterly minor I'm going to give it a break for now, unless someone else comes and more openly agrees with me, even though I know I am right. elvenscout742 22:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Ahem. This conversation dosn't seem to have much to do with "Myhology" any more. Perhaps it would be better to have this dicussion elsewhere. Paul August ☎ 21:01, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
And "elsewhere" as in "other than Wikipedia" if you cannot be courteous to each other. — Theo (Talk) 22:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that the exploration of what a myth is not should be in the Myth article rather than here. Can anyone explain why we should not move that bit? — Theo (Talk) 16:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, mainly because the myth article is actually a fork file of this one. There's no real reason to have both articles, as they discuss the same thing.... myths versus study of myths. The Myth article itself is really messy and not the preferred one. DreamGuy 17:19, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Moved from talk:Creation myths
A creation myth is a specific type of myth which tells how the Universe, the Earth, life, and/or humanity came into being. A myth is just a story for which there is no documentary or scientific proof.
And that the authorship is always untraceable? I mean, it's too late for anyone to create any new myths, because the rest of us would know who wrote it -- or at least when.
--Ed Poor
I am thinking we ought to just redirect to Mythology. This is rapidly turning into a duplicate of it. :-) -- Dmerrill
I think we have to be careful to avoid the implication that myth = falsehood. Many of the ancients did not consider their myths falsehood. Ultimately Graeco-Roman myths are no different from Jewish or Christian stories. To call one myths and refuse to call the other myths also is to make a distinction that does not exist. (Unless the distinction you wish to make is one of truth, but that isn't NPOV.) -- SJK
Look, my new entry (second one on the page) is intended to refer to the journalistic practice of "dispelling myths" -- most often in the form of a list of common and non-controversial misconceptions corrected in the list. This
The Myth of the Lone Inventor does not fit with the other examples! --
Cayzle
Exactly; I meant it as an example of the first definition, not the second. I wouldn't put on the Scientific myths page, though; it's really just personal commentary, and I certainly don't have the credentials for my commentary on the matter to belong in an encyclopedia. I just like to point to it in Talk pages to explain why I make certain changes to pages about inventions. --LDC
I have heard that Campbell, a mythologist (is that the correct word? I'm not sure) referred to Star Wars as a "modern myth" where "myth" is used in the legend/tradition sense. This contradicts the idea that a myth doesn't have a specific author. I don't know, however, if Campbell's view is supported by other scientists. Does anyone have information on this? -- KamikazeArchon
Good point. -- KA
Is it really necessary for a myth to be believed to be true by those who tell it? I would have thought that the question of literal truth is unimportant; the "deep explanatory significance" would be what matters. Michael Hardy 23:15, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The opening paragraph of this article seems to imply that only preliterate cultures have myths. I'm pretty sure that is not the case: in the first place Medieval Europe was not strictly a pre-literate culture, and has plenty of myths. Secondly, most people consider that we have myths in some form today. Can we adjust this? DJ Clayworth 17:52, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner 20:01, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner 20:13, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Actually I used only one citation, Barthes and others are cited in Mache. Hyacinth 20:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Mache aligns himself with structuralists rather than poststructuralists.
To clarify "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things," I quote the opposite opinion:
"Myth therefore seems to choose history, rather than be chosen by it. It generates and informs history."
Thus "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things" is Barthes way of saying he prefers historical exegesis since, to paraphrase, "history generates and informs myth."
Hyacinth 20:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that it's a grave misrepresentation to call critical theory a "minority' view. That's kind of like calling astrophysics a minority view. Yes, 95% of the world has probably never read Barthes. But those that have are people who have undertaken advanced study in the humanities at mainstream and respected universities. Critical theory is not some weird cult. It is the core and foundation of current academic research in the humanities. Snowspinner 16:53, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Persian mythology is one of the oldest and richest mythologies of the world. In my opinion it should be added to the template: "Articles related to mythology". You can read more about it here. -- Mani1 01:21, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
alright, dreamguy, why is cs lewis "not a good source," considering he was a professor of literature at highly prestigious schools who wrote extensively on the topic of mythology? is it because (GASP!) he was a CHRISTIAN!? Ungtss 20:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Hyacinth 21:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
reverted again without discussion on the talkpage. that section contains information not mentioned anywhere else on the page -- a breakdown and easy way to understand myths, their characteristics, and what they mean to is. that information is nowhere else on the page. you have provided neither a better explanation, nor a refutation of this one. why are you deleting this section, sir?
Ungtss 00:03, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dreamguy, the first time you reverted saying "Lewis is not a good source," but failed to provide a refutation of him nor provide a better one.
The second time you reverted saying "The information is already on the page," without showing me where or explaining why it was redundent.
this time you reverted saying "editor has a personal grudge against me."
(ASSUMING GOOD FAITH)
would you care to address the above concerns, dreamguy? Ungtss 18:14, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss has a tendency to create new section headers constantly, I think because it makes it look like his side has more support if he starts most of the section headers or something. Anyway. Because they are all part of the same argument that was also above, I consolidated them into one. See above (09:19, Feb 27, 2005) where I point out that Ungtss claims for Lewis' expertise were unsupported and false. So now that that's over with... DreamGuy 09:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
all should note, mr. dreamguy has yet to address the substance of the text, by either explaining why lewis was wrong, or providing something better. there is absolutely no reason not to have this text here. it's good, and clear, and written by a well-known literature scholar. his deletions thusfar are justified only by ad hominem. Ungtss 18:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss has a tendency to create new section headers constantly, I think because it makes it look like his side has more support if he starts most of the section headers or something. Anyway. Because they are all part of the same argument that was also above, I consolidated them into one. See above (09:19, Feb 27, 2005) where I point out that Ungtss claims for Lewis' expertise were unsupported and false. So now that that's over with...
DreamGuy 09:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
for examples of my highly biased and low quality editing, consider my projects Influence of Hellenic philosophy on Christianity, Arguments for eternity, and Development of religion, and Liquefaction. yep. that's a man with nothing to contribute to wikipedia. a fundamentalist vandel. Ungtss 18:04, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I once again removed the pointless section headers Ungtss piut in to try to open more arguments on the same topics, and note that he just goes on repeating the same false claims. Fact: C.S. Lewis is not considered an expert in mythology. Fact: He wrote about religion, not mythology. Fact: Ungtss has yet to give any reason to believe otherwise, except for his word that he considers him an expert who wrote extensively on the topic. That doesn't cut it.
And, it's funny actually, the articles Ungtss points to to try to prove his worth on Wikipedia go a long way toward proving my point: that he has no knowledge about mythology and that he is only here to slip his Creationist beliefs into the encyclopedia. For anyone unfamiliar with him, you might also check out Creationism, Flood geology and Deluge (mythology), where he is engaged with wars on multiple fronts to add pseudoscience everywhere under the guise of true knowledge that arrogant scholarly types refuse to admit, and so forth and so on. There is a long strong of people who are sick to death of his pitbull antics and blatant bias. DreamGuy 03:50, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
It isn't there, because it never happened. He [Lewis] wrote about religion, and he wrote children's fiction that featured a few creatures from Greek mythology. That does not make someone an expert on mythology, unless you think JK Rowling should also be quoted here as the other major "expert" in the field. The only people who think of him as an expert in the field are those people outside of it, like Ungtss here.
dreamguy's arguments thusfar have been SOLELY ad hominem, against me and against lewis, but NONE of them have gone to the content of the passage. dreamguy, what is WRONG with that text? is it not accurate? is it not true? are there others who would say he was wrong? who? why? are there BETTER sources you can cite who give "characteristics of myth?" your attacks on me are irrelevent. your attacks on lewis are groundless (the quoted book was EXCLUSIVELY about literary criticism and myth, and NOTHING about religion, and if you read any lewis, you'd realize he was an atheist for the first 30-odd years, and wrote a LOT of non-"religious" material about literary criticism, and myth). you have DELETED a good piece of text that provides information provided nowhere else. to justify your deletion, please either show why the information is WRONG, or provide a BETTER SOURCE. your feelings about me are irrelevent. this is about the text. Ungtss 13:45, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the C.S. Lewis "characteristics", my impression is that at the point in the article where they are presented, they seem a non-sequitur, as if they were just plopped into the beginning of the article. If the six characteristics are intended as the necessary and sufficient conditions for a narrative to be a "myth" -- as the definining characteristics of "myth" -- I find them perplexing and unhelpful. They seem at best to be six miscellaneous observations about myths, and not so self-evidently true that they can be presented without supporting examples and argument. Why these six particular characteristics, anyway? Are all myths supposed to have them? Is any narrative with these six characteristics a "myth"? They do not strike one as the intutive, fundamental, "axioms" of a theory of mythology. As for whether, as observations, they are even true, I do not know, but I have no reason to think so: one would have to check them against a very wide set of examples from many different cultures that are agreed to be "myths". If C. S. Lewis is not an recognized expert on myths, I would not take it on his authority that they are true. And, if he is not a recognized expert, the six characteristics don't merit this degree of prominence in the article, or perhaps any mention at all. -- BM 18:44, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Would be nice to have an article about a heroic myth. -- Eleassar777 09:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
From folklorists' perspectives, the term myth has very defined criteria, including the fact that myths are sacred and believed as true. There were some sloppy uses of terms like "legend" and "secular mythology" in this article that I have tried to alter. I need to go back and compare this to the mythology entry. There's much more discussion to be added here, not only about different genres of myths, but about schools of thought. Campbell is highly controversial, as are Freud and Jung who are not even mentioned here (and myth played a big role in psychoanalysis and the early days of dream analysis in psychoanalytic thought). The other thing I want to echo in the discussion from above here, is that all sacred traditions have myths. The major religions would use the word pejoratively, as in "they [usually colonized peoples] have their myths, we [usually colonizing peoples] have our religion," but the processes of sacred traditions and narrative in that sense are the same whether cultures are "preliterate" (as the article used to read) or complex. That's why the variable about how much people believe in the truth of their sacred narratives becomes critical, and threatening when one attacks another tradition by dismissing it as a mere myth. Also, I added links to folklore and folkloristics, and removed social psychology. I've studied both, and there's no study of myth in social psychology, although there was (and may still be) a great deal in other subfields of psychology, such as clinical and analytical. Bruxism 23:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Do myths need to be belelieved by the people telling the myth, the people listening to the myth, or both? Cites please. Hipocrite 18:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
People telling the myth, it's the academic definition. We already went over this on the Mythology article. Try Webster's or any academic book on the topic, for starters. If they don't believe it's true then it's just fiction, which is a completely different animal and we might as well not even talk about myths. DreamGuy 18:15, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Cite please. If I go look at Webster's, and it's not in there, can we take it out of the article? I want something that ends the discussion, cold. Hipocrite 18:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
JDR 21:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I would think it is a bit unfair to claim the "most" or "nearly all" dictionaries actively support the rather narrow idea that a "myth" is essentially just a "non-truth". Oxford, who produce "the world's most trusted dictionaries", gives that definition as secondary, and the primary one is "a traditional story concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events". Webster Online says first "a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon" and gives as a minor, secondary sub-definition of the second definition "an unfounded or false notion". I think if we said that some dictionaries make reference to this rather colloquial notion that a myth is basically a false belief, it would be acceptible. I do not want to become involved in yet another edit war over the definition of the word "myth[ology]", so I will see what others think here before making the necessary changes. elvenscout742 19:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I have changed the definition of mythology in the lead section. My sources are as follows:
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica article Mythology:
According to the MSN Encarta article Mythology:
According to H. R. Ellis Davidson in Gods and Myths of Northern Europe:
According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
According to the Merriam-Webster:
-- Salleman 08:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Should the list of archetypes not be lengthened to include things like one-eyed gods and severed hands? I myself would do it, but I am reluctant to get bogged down in writing articles on them. elvenscout742 23:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know that the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot fit into mythology, although Grendel does. I am not sure why that should be though.
and if this page is going to identify Christian Myths should the link just go to Christianity, since the author is equating "some people consider it a collection of myths" with "some people believe in Norse gods"? --MichaelTinkler
Doesn't mythology differ from religion by the absence of the preaching of some kind of philosophy?
While I do disagree that Christian belief is a Mythology, I do agree that Christian Mythology exists. The story of King Arthur, for example, qualifies. Many stories of verbal history exist, used in explaining the circumstances of scripture. The purported names of the Wise Men are an example of this. I do think that Hinduism as a whole has a more explicit connection to mythology than Christian belief. Hinduism does not have the same focus on the historicity of their scripture as Christianity does, in my experience, and according to my informants. In principle, the christian understanding of scripture holds that scripture is a record of specific events that can be tied to a particular place and time. To my knowledge, Hinduism does not have this as an explicit part of their hermeneutics. I believe the book "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell is relevant. -- BenBaker
How can you say that ancient Graeco-Roman tales are myths, but Jewish or Christian tales are not? They are the same phenomena. The only problem arises because people presume that myths are false, and don't want to call Jewish or Christian tales false (although they seem to have no problem with expressing the same view about the tales of the religions of antiquity.) But the definition of a myth (at least as used in anthropology, etc.) is a story of significance to a culture, that somehow encodes its values. The Bible is full of myths; that doesn't mean it is false, it merely means that its stories are significant to the culture it represents. -- SJK
I think I already agreed that there is such a thing as Christian mythology. I think myth as you are using it is different than mythology. I think the loose way you are using mythology is loose enough that I am justified in agreeing that you hold that the Theory of Evolution is a myth. (it does tell a significant story to a culture... <grin>) I would like to see the reaction if you state that on the page for that article though, as I expect quite an uproar. -- BenBaker
Um, I created a page on Christian Mythology before I saw this debate. Hope no one minds!
On an unrelated topic, I don't think that "wizard" should qualify as a The earliest reference to them listed in their article is in 1982, and if fictional species that recent and relatively little-known count as myt"race." Traditionally, a wizard is a person who has a skill or practices an art -- the aptitude may be inborn, but so is an aptitude for music or chess. Not a race, I say! -- Cayzle
On a related topic, I'm a little iffy about including wemics in here too. Weren't they created pretty much from scratch by TSR and/or Sierra for their games? I would think that to qualify as mythology there should be some significant group of people who at one point believed that it was a real race. TSR was well-known for appropriating mythical creatures from all over the place to incorporate into D&D, so perhaps a reference can be found somewhere to a real mythical origin for wemics? - BD (addendum: maybe not so out of place, actually, since the Mythology article already lists Star Trek as a piece of modern mythology. :)
I wish I knew if D&D wemics and Sierra liontaurs were originated independently, or were inspired by a common unknown source, or what. But I agree with your point -- if Star Trek is mentionable, why not wemics? -- Cayzle
So, should this page now be redirected to an article titled " Stories?" I think it's taking political correctness to an insane level to be eradicating the word "mythology" from all the sub-articles. - BD
Well, as I said before, religious believers should not have a problem with the word "myth" as long as it's not talking about a historical story (because, really, it would sound very weird to talk about "The Myth of the War of 1812," even if we can derive a moral from the events of that war), but I have to disagree with your implied assertion that this is all about political correctness - it's not. I think you have one side (people who, generally speaking, don't believe in Christianity) thinking that it's unfair that Christian stories are labelled "stories" while Greek ones are labeled "myths," while on the other side you have people who do believe in Christianity, to whatever degree, who are very hurt to have what they believe to be true history labeled myths. Since I personally see the Bible as (mostly) allegory, I have a much easier time accepting the word "myths," but please try to remember how hard that word may be to accept for some people. This is not a meaningless argument.
The current Christian Mythology or Christian Stories page, whichever it is named now, appears to be talking about stories which are fairly commonly believed to be fictional, so it's not much of a problem. But, BD, I urge you to think for a minute about something you believe in, such as perhaps your University Degree. How would you feel if someone called your obtaining of a degree "The Myth of BD's University Education?" I'm sure the story of your education could be used to illustrate several important moral points, so it fits the definition of "myth." Still, the connotation is hard to take. -- Alex Kennedy
I'd think "Cool, I've achieved the status of myth!" :) But on a more serious note, I do understand that some people would find the combination of the words "Christian mythology" to be offensive. I just think that we shouldn't be focusing on trying to ensure that this encyclopedia offends noone, and should instead be trying to "call things as they are" to as much of a degree it is possible. I suppose the issue of the Christian mythology/stories thing can be debated, but when that debate results in "Greek mythology" being considered an offensive and/or inaccurate description of Greek mythology then I think it's gone a little overboard.
More discussion should probably be conducted on Wikipedia Religion and Mythology standards, which I didn't notice until after I first posted to this Talk subpage. :) - BD
I'm considering fitting scientific mythology somewhere into the 'Modern mythology' section instead of just having a link to it. Any objections/suggestions? --Chris
Along the lines of mythology is the term "Shared Universe." One example of this is the character Conan the Barbarian. He was created by one person, but later novelized by more than one successive writer. Star Trek can also be considered a shared universe in that many authors have penned Star Trek novels. --E.C.
Perhaps the issue as been beaten to death now, but would there be any objections to using J. Campbell's definition of mythology (one of several he provides in his work) as "an organization of images metaphoric of experience, action, and fulfillment of the human spirit in the field of a given culture at a given time." This definition has the advantage that it subsumes religion as a subordinate category of myth, that is as the application of mythology within a narrow field of human experience and action. With respect to three of the world's great religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they insist on the historicity of their myths, in other words, on the actuality of their metaphors in the fields of time and space.
Bruno
Europe sports a Fjort mythology. What's a Fjort? Ain't in my Swedish dictionary. -- IHCOYC 02:22, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Why is Incan mythology found under North America? Do you folks know something that I've missed? Mats 15:14, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The Amazons would have to be my most favorite story to hear from the myth. I haven't seen anything about the Amazons on the site and I think it would be interesting to site some informations about them. They were firece and should dominate over the weak. They were warriors and very rare of their time.
Shouldn't Polish mythology and Slavic mythology be merged? At least the entries for gods should, as they are mostly just name variations of the same god (compare: Crnobog and Czarnobóg or Piorun and Perun). Ausir 21:02, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This is a rather erroneous view of the nature of myth. For example, one does not need to believe that Jesus was a living person to read, say, Jefferson's Bible, and come away with the truth that he was trying to teach. One also doesn't have to believe that there was really a place called Hobbiton, that Frodo was a living man (or hobbit), and the events actually occurred. After all, people tend to call stories myths because they are almost certainly fictitious - but they still refer to them because, however fictitious they may be, there is still value to be found in them, and it is that value, independent of whether the events really happened, which is what is important. If I had more time, I'd rewrite this article in its entirity to remove that 'myth must be true' bias that pervades it. HOW MYTHS ARE SO LONG AND INTERESTING?
I'm interested in knowing how myths were and how they were able to stay in each generation but in each generation having it to grow. i mean did the parents add stuff down while the way or if the children added it on to make it more interesting-DS
Should this page contain a brief mention of modern constructed mythologies? I am thinking mainly of the mythology of Middle-Earth (that is told in The Silmarillion) created by J.R.R.Tolkien, though there are others. -- Ingolemo 11:39, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Is there a reason why we don't have anything on myths of the Canaanites??
I'm wondering if someone can help me out here. I'm writing a thing about how mythology is used in advertising and I was wondering if anyone has any good insight or anything they'd like to contribute on the subject. For example, how Midas (the car parts place) has its slogan "trust the Midas touch," to emphasize that they know what they are doing and will make your car as good as gold. I could really use some more examples like that, but I'd appreciate anything you'd like to throw in. -M
The following phrase (referring to Neopagan beliefs formed in imitation of older pagan groups) was deleted recently as allegedly POV: "though the modern versions of these beliefs usually have little to no resemblance to the originals" -- What part of that is supposedly POV? DreamGuy 11:57, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
because its heavily POV. Gabrielsimon 07:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
the burden of proof is not with me, it is you who must proove that it isnt. Gabrielsimon 07:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I think User:Jwrosenzweig's modification of the phrase in question adequately removes any possible claim of it being PoV, and adds a good extra bit of information. DreamGuy 07:52, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
i agree.
Gabrielsimon
07:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
DreamGuy, see here and here, and also any other good dictionary, such as this. You once insulted me on this same issue, saying I should go edit ja.wikipedia.org if I want to use Japanese definitions of words, clearly ignoring the purpose of my contrast, and yet you now refer to Ancient Greek definitions of words. I don't know why "mythology" means "A body or collection of myths belonging to a people", given the "-ology" suffix, but it simply does, and it certainly is more common, given that at least ninety-five percent of the word's usage in this article go by it, mostly after this point, and the title of that section even uses that "akward plural about studying myths" of yours. I'm more mature than to start an edit war with you over this, so I will simply wait for you to realise you are wrong in this instance. elvenscout742 22:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
howaboutthe plural word mythos ( ifthas whatthe word is) would be less clumbsy sounding... Gabrielsimon 00:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
no no, the word mythos, as a plural of mythology. Gabrielsimon 00:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have to side with Elvenscout on this: from my experience, "mythology" is often used to denote a collection of myths with a common heritage or subject. Glancing at my bookshelf, here are some examples from scholars (who would be more likely to use the word in its "proper" sense than in its colloquial sense) who use the word "mythology" in the sense of "a collection of myths":
When the word "myth" is used in the title of a collection of myths, it is almost always contrasted with another element:
One interesting usage was that by G.S. Kirk for his book-long study of Greek mythology -- Myth. If "mythology" should properly be understood only in the sense Dreamguy is arguing, wouldn't Kirk have instead called his book Mythology? -- llywrch 17:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Elvenscout and llywrch. Michael Simpson in the introduction of his translation of Gods and Heroes of the Greeks: The Library of Apollodorus, describes the Library as giving "a straightforward account of Greek mythology from the birth of the gods to the death of Odysseus." I don't think he meant to say that it gives an account of the study of Greek myths, since clearly the Library gives an account of the myths, not their study. Robert Graves in his The Greek Myths says: "A study of Greek mythology should begin with a consideration of ... political and religious systems ...". I don't think he was referring to the study of the study of Greek myths. Walter Burkert's, Structure and History in Greek Mythology and Ritual, seems to use the word in the sense of a collection of related myths. If he were using the term to here to mean the study of myths, the title would be "Structure and History of Greek Mythology ..." — Paul August ☎ 19:41, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
Yet another lame edit war, I believe compromise is in order. Therefore, mythological beliefs by regions could placate opposing parties. Dbraceyrules 20:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Can what we have now be left as is? The opening paragraph is fine (even if it does seem to place a bit more emphasis on the definition favoured by DreamGuy), the bit about Tarzan refers to "[the series] of Tarzan" (with the name still used in the same way is it is on the page to which it links), and the list "Mythologies by region" is given its proper name, as the items mentioned in it are not "myths" (i.e. stories) but "mythologies" (i.e. groups of such stories from the regions mentioned). Surely, DreamGuy, you must except that if all those involved accept you acknowledge the other definition, it must at least be worth mentioning in the introduction. I don't want to have to take this to any higher powers than are already involved, and your definition is still given priority. I do not refuse to acknowledge it, I only ask that the other be given equal weight - something I have advocated but you have constantly opposed. Can we just call it quits?
(Oh, yeah, and I think the introduction still needs a bit of minor work on its wording and formatting, and I think it literally denotes and originally denoted nothing more than the telling of stories, as it was first used by Plato. I might work on that later. I won't do anything to damage the current neutrality of it, though.)
elvenscout742 23:44, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
You see, DreamGuy, this is just what I'm talking about. While I want to discuss things peacefully here, you insist on getting your way in the article proper. Consensus is against you, and I have explained precisely why on a number of occasions. Since you are in a minority, here, you cannot expect to get what you want just because you unilaterally change the article without listening to anyone else first. The Tarzan thing is so utterly minor I'm going to give it a break for now, unless someone else comes and more openly agrees with me, even though I know I am right. elvenscout742 22:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Ahem. This conversation dosn't seem to have much to do with "Myhology" any more. Perhaps it would be better to have this dicussion elsewhere. Paul August ☎ 21:01, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
And "elsewhere" as in "other than Wikipedia" if you cannot be courteous to each other. — Theo (Talk) 22:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that the exploration of what a myth is not should be in the Myth article rather than here. Can anyone explain why we should not move that bit? — Theo (Talk) 16:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, mainly because the myth article is actually a fork file of this one. There's no real reason to have both articles, as they discuss the same thing.... myths versus study of myths. The Myth article itself is really messy and not the preferred one. DreamGuy 17:19, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Moved from talk:Creation myths
A creation myth is a specific type of myth which tells how the Universe, the Earth, life, and/or humanity came into being. A myth is just a story for which there is no documentary or scientific proof.
And that the authorship is always untraceable? I mean, it's too late for anyone to create any new myths, because the rest of us would know who wrote it -- or at least when.
--Ed Poor
I am thinking we ought to just redirect to Mythology. This is rapidly turning into a duplicate of it. :-) -- Dmerrill
I think we have to be careful to avoid the implication that myth = falsehood. Many of the ancients did not consider their myths falsehood. Ultimately Graeco-Roman myths are no different from Jewish or Christian stories. To call one myths and refuse to call the other myths also is to make a distinction that does not exist. (Unless the distinction you wish to make is one of truth, but that isn't NPOV.) -- SJK
Look, my new entry (second one on the page) is intended to refer to the journalistic practice of "dispelling myths" -- most often in the form of a list of common and non-controversial misconceptions corrected in the list. This
The Myth of the Lone Inventor does not fit with the other examples! --
Cayzle
Exactly; I meant it as an example of the first definition, not the second. I wouldn't put on the Scientific myths page, though; it's really just personal commentary, and I certainly don't have the credentials for my commentary on the matter to belong in an encyclopedia. I just like to point to it in Talk pages to explain why I make certain changes to pages about inventions. --LDC
I have heard that Campbell, a mythologist (is that the correct word? I'm not sure) referred to Star Wars as a "modern myth" where "myth" is used in the legend/tradition sense. This contradicts the idea that a myth doesn't have a specific author. I don't know, however, if Campbell's view is supported by other scientists. Does anyone have information on this? -- KamikazeArchon
Good point. -- KA
Is it really necessary for a myth to be believed to be true by those who tell it? I would have thought that the question of literal truth is unimportant; the "deep explanatory significance" would be what matters. Michael Hardy 23:15, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The opening paragraph of this article seems to imply that only preliterate cultures have myths. I'm pretty sure that is not the case: in the first place Medieval Europe was not strictly a pre-literate culture, and has plenty of myths. Secondly, most people consider that we have myths in some form today. Can we adjust this? DJ Clayworth 17:52, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner 20:01, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner 20:13, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Actually I used only one citation, Barthes and others are cited in Mache. Hyacinth 20:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Mache aligns himself with structuralists rather than poststructuralists.
To clarify "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things," I quote the opposite opinion:
"Myth therefore seems to choose history, rather than be chosen by it. It generates and informs history."
Thus "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things" is Barthes way of saying he prefers historical exegesis since, to paraphrase, "history generates and informs myth."
Hyacinth 20:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that it's a grave misrepresentation to call critical theory a "minority' view. That's kind of like calling astrophysics a minority view. Yes, 95% of the world has probably never read Barthes. But those that have are people who have undertaken advanced study in the humanities at mainstream and respected universities. Critical theory is not some weird cult. It is the core and foundation of current academic research in the humanities. Snowspinner 16:53, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Persian mythology is one of the oldest and richest mythologies of the world. In my opinion it should be added to the template: "Articles related to mythology". You can read more about it here. -- Mani1 01:21, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
alright, dreamguy, why is cs lewis "not a good source," considering he was a professor of literature at highly prestigious schools who wrote extensively on the topic of mythology? is it because (GASP!) he was a CHRISTIAN!? Ungtss 20:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Hyacinth 21:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
reverted again without discussion on the talkpage. that section contains information not mentioned anywhere else on the page -- a breakdown and easy way to understand myths, their characteristics, and what they mean to is. that information is nowhere else on the page. you have provided neither a better explanation, nor a refutation of this one. why are you deleting this section, sir?
Ungtss 00:03, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dreamguy, the first time you reverted saying "Lewis is not a good source," but failed to provide a refutation of him nor provide a better one.
The second time you reverted saying "The information is already on the page," without showing me where or explaining why it was redundent.
this time you reverted saying "editor has a personal grudge against me."
(ASSUMING GOOD FAITH)
would you care to address the above concerns, dreamguy? Ungtss 18:14, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss has a tendency to create new section headers constantly, I think because it makes it look like his side has more support if he starts most of the section headers or something. Anyway. Because they are all part of the same argument that was also above, I consolidated them into one. See above (09:19, Feb 27, 2005) where I point out that Ungtss claims for Lewis' expertise were unsupported and false. So now that that's over with... DreamGuy 09:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
all should note, mr. dreamguy has yet to address the substance of the text, by either explaining why lewis was wrong, or providing something better. there is absolutely no reason not to have this text here. it's good, and clear, and written by a well-known literature scholar. his deletions thusfar are justified only by ad hominem. Ungtss 18:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss has a tendency to create new section headers constantly, I think because it makes it look like his side has more support if he starts most of the section headers or something. Anyway. Because they are all part of the same argument that was also above, I consolidated them into one. See above (09:19, Feb 27, 2005) where I point out that Ungtss claims for Lewis' expertise were unsupported and false. So now that that's over with...
DreamGuy 09:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
for examples of my highly biased and low quality editing, consider my projects Influence of Hellenic philosophy on Christianity, Arguments for eternity, and Development of religion, and Liquefaction. yep. that's a man with nothing to contribute to wikipedia. a fundamentalist vandel. Ungtss 18:04, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I once again removed the pointless section headers Ungtss piut in to try to open more arguments on the same topics, and note that he just goes on repeating the same false claims. Fact: C.S. Lewis is not considered an expert in mythology. Fact: He wrote about religion, not mythology. Fact: Ungtss has yet to give any reason to believe otherwise, except for his word that he considers him an expert who wrote extensively on the topic. That doesn't cut it.
And, it's funny actually, the articles Ungtss points to to try to prove his worth on Wikipedia go a long way toward proving my point: that he has no knowledge about mythology and that he is only here to slip his Creationist beliefs into the encyclopedia. For anyone unfamiliar with him, you might also check out Creationism, Flood geology and Deluge (mythology), where he is engaged with wars on multiple fronts to add pseudoscience everywhere under the guise of true knowledge that arrogant scholarly types refuse to admit, and so forth and so on. There is a long strong of people who are sick to death of his pitbull antics and blatant bias. DreamGuy 03:50, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
It isn't there, because it never happened. He [Lewis] wrote about religion, and he wrote children's fiction that featured a few creatures from Greek mythology. That does not make someone an expert on mythology, unless you think JK Rowling should also be quoted here as the other major "expert" in the field. The only people who think of him as an expert in the field are those people outside of it, like Ungtss here.
dreamguy's arguments thusfar have been SOLELY ad hominem, against me and against lewis, but NONE of them have gone to the content of the passage. dreamguy, what is WRONG with that text? is it not accurate? is it not true? are there others who would say he was wrong? who? why? are there BETTER sources you can cite who give "characteristics of myth?" your attacks on me are irrelevent. your attacks on lewis are groundless (the quoted book was EXCLUSIVELY about literary criticism and myth, and NOTHING about religion, and if you read any lewis, you'd realize he was an atheist for the first 30-odd years, and wrote a LOT of non-"religious" material about literary criticism, and myth). you have DELETED a good piece of text that provides information provided nowhere else. to justify your deletion, please either show why the information is WRONG, or provide a BETTER SOURCE. your feelings about me are irrelevent. this is about the text. Ungtss 13:45, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the C.S. Lewis "characteristics", my impression is that at the point in the article where they are presented, they seem a non-sequitur, as if they were just plopped into the beginning of the article. If the six characteristics are intended as the necessary and sufficient conditions for a narrative to be a "myth" -- as the definining characteristics of "myth" -- I find them perplexing and unhelpful. They seem at best to be six miscellaneous observations about myths, and not so self-evidently true that they can be presented without supporting examples and argument. Why these six particular characteristics, anyway? Are all myths supposed to have them? Is any narrative with these six characteristics a "myth"? They do not strike one as the intutive, fundamental, "axioms" of a theory of mythology. As for whether, as observations, they are even true, I do not know, but I have no reason to think so: one would have to check them against a very wide set of examples from many different cultures that are agreed to be "myths". If C. S. Lewis is not an recognized expert on myths, I would not take it on his authority that they are true. And, if he is not a recognized expert, the six characteristics don't merit this degree of prominence in the article, or perhaps any mention at all. -- BM 18:44, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Would be nice to have an article about a heroic myth. -- Eleassar777 09:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
From folklorists' perspectives, the term myth has very defined criteria, including the fact that myths are sacred and believed as true. There were some sloppy uses of terms like "legend" and "secular mythology" in this article that I have tried to alter. I need to go back and compare this to the mythology entry. There's much more discussion to be added here, not only about different genres of myths, but about schools of thought. Campbell is highly controversial, as are Freud and Jung who are not even mentioned here (and myth played a big role in psychoanalysis and the early days of dream analysis in psychoanalytic thought). The other thing I want to echo in the discussion from above here, is that all sacred traditions have myths. The major religions would use the word pejoratively, as in "they [usually colonized peoples] have their myths, we [usually colonizing peoples] have our religion," but the processes of sacred traditions and narrative in that sense are the same whether cultures are "preliterate" (as the article used to read) or complex. That's why the variable about how much people believe in the truth of their sacred narratives becomes critical, and threatening when one attacks another tradition by dismissing it as a mere myth. Also, I added links to folklore and folkloristics, and removed social psychology. I've studied both, and there's no study of myth in social psychology, although there was (and may still be) a great deal in other subfields of psychology, such as clinical and analytical. Bruxism 23:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Do myths need to be belelieved by the people telling the myth, the people listening to the myth, or both? Cites please. Hipocrite 18:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
People telling the myth, it's the academic definition. We already went over this on the Mythology article. Try Webster's or any academic book on the topic, for starters. If they don't believe it's true then it's just fiction, which is a completely different animal and we might as well not even talk about myths. DreamGuy 18:15, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Cite please. If I go look at Webster's, and it's not in there, can we take it out of the article? I want something that ends the discussion, cold. Hipocrite 18:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
JDR 21:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I would think it is a bit unfair to claim the "most" or "nearly all" dictionaries actively support the rather narrow idea that a "myth" is essentially just a "non-truth". Oxford, who produce "the world's most trusted dictionaries", gives that definition as secondary, and the primary one is "a traditional story concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events". Webster Online says first "a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon" and gives as a minor, secondary sub-definition of the second definition "an unfounded or false notion". I think if we said that some dictionaries make reference to this rather colloquial notion that a myth is basically a false belief, it would be acceptible. I do not want to become involved in yet another edit war over the definition of the word "myth[ology]", so I will see what others think here before making the necessary changes. elvenscout742 19:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I have changed the definition of mythology in the lead section. My sources are as follows:
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica article Mythology:
According to the MSN Encarta article Mythology:
According to H. R. Ellis Davidson in Gods and Myths of Northern Europe:
According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
According to the Merriam-Webster:
-- Salleman 08:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)