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Is there any reason why his surname in the title and opening paragraph is spelt with an "i", and not capitalised? Darkson - BANG! 11:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a non-cpaital 'i' it's a Turkish letter, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=%C4%B0&redirect=no for more information -- Murfilicious 12:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
More evidence would be nice, but I've found this nice interview where he talks about coming into the Turkish national squad and his heritage, which includes the quote "I've always considered myself half and half." I think this is strong enough to include the Turkish people category alongside the British people category, especially as it seemed slightly bizarre that he was a Turkish footballer without being a Turkish person! Knepflerle ( talk) 15:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Done - consensus seems to be in favour of a move.
Neıl
☎
13:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
In keeping with the discussion above, the legal form of his surname in the country in which he was born and played his entire career is spelt without diacritics, and the vast majority of references in the press, and by his clubs,have used a simple I. It would seem quite proper that in tr.wikipedia the Turkish letter is used, but English allows the appropriate pronunciation without any need for the diacritic, and therefore it is not necessary to make a phonic distinction, nor is it accurate in legal-historic terms, nor is it in keeping with normal usage. The
relevant policy says:
Diacritics should only be used in an article's title, if it can be shown that the word is routinely used in that way, with diacritics, in common usage. This means in reliable English sources, such as eencyclopedias, dictionaries, or articles in major English-language newspapers.
If the word is routinely listed in reliable English sources without diacritics, then the Wikipedia article should follow that method for the article title, though the diacritics version should be given in the initial paragraph of the article as suggested in
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).
If it is not clear what "common usage" is, then the general Wikipedia guideline is to avoid use of diacritics in article titles.
It does not appear that these criteria have been met.
Kevin McE (
talk)
13:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
So can we do this properly and actually demonstrate the predominant usage as required by the policy?
Anecdotally, from my reading of football press in English, Izzet is predominant. Weak evidence, but at least its an admissible argument according to our guideline. I'm sure someone else can do better.
(But before people rush off to Google for "definitive proof" - experiment a bit with its optical character recognition. You will find that it won't discriminate between İ, I, Ï, or even l or 1 in some cases, returning them as I or even other letters completely. Other howlers include returning ü as o, ß as B, ł as t, ö as b (try Universitat Kbln on Google Scholar for Universität Köln) and so on. Basically it's not yet up to the job for distnguishing diacritic use reliably - but there's still plenty of sources other than Google, thank goodness). Knepflerle ( talk) 13:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
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Can Muzzy Izzet be credited as being the Asian player with the most Premier League appearances ever, having registered 248 appearances ( https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/appearances?cl=4&se=-1)? It seems a little odd for two reasons which I can't quite define myself - Firstly, would he really be defined as Turkish although he played for their national team, although the PL page also define him as Turkish? Secondly, with Turkey being a Transcontinental Country is it fair to call it an 'Asian country' for this purpose, and would Turkish players be 'disqualified' for being considered for European records? If this is the case, a player like Tugay Kerimoğlu would also not qualify for that record and Yossi Benayoun would then be considered the Asian player to hold the record with his 194 appearances. Interested in hearing your thoughts on this 'record' — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealGutripper ( talk • contribs) 08:31, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
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Is there any reason why his surname in the title and opening paragraph is spelt with an "i", and not capitalised? Darkson - BANG! 11:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a non-cpaital 'i' it's a Turkish letter, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=%C4%B0&redirect=no for more information -- Murfilicious 12:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
More evidence would be nice, but I've found this nice interview where he talks about coming into the Turkish national squad and his heritage, which includes the quote "I've always considered myself half and half." I think this is strong enough to include the Turkish people category alongside the British people category, especially as it seemed slightly bizarre that he was a Turkish footballer without being a Turkish person! Knepflerle ( talk) 15:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Done - consensus seems to be in favour of a move.
Neıl
☎
13:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
In keeping with the discussion above, the legal form of his surname in the country in which he was born and played his entire career is spelt without diacritics, and the vast majority of references in the press, and by his clubs,have used a simple I. It would seem quite proper that in tr.wikipedia the Turkish letter is used, but English allows the appropriate pronunciation without any need for the diacritic, and therefore it is not necessary to make a phonic distinction, nor is it accurate in legal-historic terms, nor is it in keeping with normal usage. The
relevant policy says:
Diacritics should only be used in an article's title, if it can be shown that the word is routinely used in that way, with diacritics, in common usage. This means in reliable English sources, such as eencyclopedias, dictionaries, or articles in major English-language newspapers.
If the word is routinely listed in reliable English sources without diacritics, then the Wikipedia article should follow that method for the article title, though the diacritics version should be given in the initial paragraph of the article as suggested in
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).
If it is not clear what "common usage" is, then the general Wikipedia guideline is to avoid use of diacritics in article titles.
It does not appear that these criteria have been met.
Kevin McE (
talk)
13:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
So can we do this properly and actually demonstrate the predominant usage as required by the policy?
Anecdotally, from my reading of football press in English, Izzet is predominant. Weak evidence, but at least its an admissible argument according to our guideline. I'm sure someone else can do better.
(But before people rush off to Google for "definitive proof" - experiment a bit with its optical character recognition. You will find that it won't discriminate between İ, I, Ï, or even l or 1 in some cases, returning them as I or even other letters completely. Other howlers include returning ü as o, ß as B, ł as t, ö as b (try Universitat Kbln on Google Scholar for Universität Köln) and so on. Basically it's not yet up to the job for distnguishing diacritic use reliably - but there's still plenty of sources other than Google, thank goodness). Knepflerle ( talk) 13:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
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Can Muzzy Izzet be credited as being the Asian player with the most Premier League appearances ever, having registered 248 appearances ( https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/appearances?cl=4&se=-1)? It seems a little odd for two reasons which I can't quite define myself - Firstly, would he really be defined as Turkish although he played for their national team, although the PL page also define him as Turkish? Secondly, with Turkey being a Transcontinental Country is it fair to call it an 'Asian country' for this purpose, and would Turkish players be 'disqualified' for being considered for European records? If this is the case, a player like Tugay Kerimoğlu would also not qualify for that record and Yossi Benayoun would then be considered the Asian player to hold the record with his 194 appearances. Interested in hearing your thoughts on this 'record' — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealGutripper ( talk • contribs) 08:31, 13 January 2020 (UTC)