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Anon, thanks for the work. It looks like your sources were much more detailed than mine. I had been under the impression that the Quality Network lasted longer.
What was the arrangement (if any) between the stations in the years inbetween the demise of Quality and the start of Mutual? I was under the impression they continued sharing programing, is this false? -- Infrogmation 04:44 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I rolled back an anonymous contribution that discussed the quality of the article within the article, someone should edit and incorporate the accurate and relevant bits and make sure it comports with encyclopedia standards. dml 13:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I have failed to establish exactly what the relation was between Mutual Broadcasting Company and Mutual Broadcasting System, but they seem to be used interchangeably, so I made Mutual Broadcasting Company a redirect. Algae 12:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Suggest inclusion of several other Mutual Broadcasting System citations, sample scripts, recordings and/or links, including, at the least:
Jerry Haendiges also posts a few Mutual Broadcasting System episodes each month, but they're not permanent links.
As per the request left on my page, I've read over your site, at least for a once-over, "strikes me" kind of review. I'm not the world's best at the formatting type stuff, so please excuse the lack of practical comments in that regard.
Aside from correcting one minor error (the year of Pearl Harbor), a quick read didn't disclose anything I thought was flamingly wrong. The nature of OTR scholarship being what it is, I know there's a lot of conflicting material out there, but judging from a reading of the footnotes, you seem to have a grip on that. I just re-read "The Murrow Boys," by Stanley Cloud & Lynne Olson. This is about Edward R. Murrow and the rise (and fall) of CBS News, focusing on the 1930s and 1940s. The authors there take the position that both NBC and Mutual made a bad error in judgement in September of '39 by halting broadcasts from abroad: "by the time they regained their senses a couple of critical months later, CBS' dominance was clear." (page 58). You can take that for what you wish.
Another thing that struck me about Mutual is the sheer number of serial/kiddie programs that it created or broadcast. Cisco Kid, Superman, Green Hornet, Lone Ranger, the Shadow, et alia. Granted, many of these moved on to other networks, but this is a noteworthy fact, I think.
In terms of structure, I would break up the sections a bit more, splitting your decade discussions between subsections on corporate movements and on-air movements. This might make it flow better, with smaller, easier-to-digest sections, especially if some readers are a little less interested in the corporate stuff. (I'm an ex-corporate lawyer, so I don't count!)
Mutual's tussle with NBC ended in victory for Mutual, and resulted in a significant change in the way radio networks do business (e.g., forcing them to get rid of talent booking agencies, changing affiliation contracts, &c.). The role of Mutual's anti-trust lawsuit might be worthwhile exploring.
Ray Swing, if I'm not mistaken, moved on to Blue/ABC; I think he's the same guy I mention in my article. Which brings up the point that you allude to, which is how much Mutual stuff ended up moving to the other networks, even up to the Queen for a Day era. Bit of hard luck for Mutual, if you ask me.
Pretty good selection of pictures, I thought. I think somewhere else on Wiki there's a nice photo of Jackson Beck with Bud Collyer, standing in front of a Mutual microphone at a Superman broadcast. (Addendum -- the picture is at the entry for the Adventures of Superman radio show.) I'd also recommend a subscription to newspaperarchive.com, where I got a bunch of my advertisement illustrations for my article. If you acquire some items on eBay for your collection, like matchbooks or publicity photographs or publicity handouts and the like, these can add more spice. (You have some of this with those local materials.) How about a photo of FDR with NBC, CBS and Mutual microphones?
One thing I've been thinking about adding to my article, but need to figure out the logistics, are tag-line excerpts. Perhaps more important for an outfit that changed its identity, like the Blue Network, but still, a collection of clips as to how Mutual advertised itself over the decades, especially with its change in ownership, might be a worthwhile thing. I believe a lot of OTR stuff is public domain, so you may not have issues with using sound clips. Later clips, you might have issues, of course, so you'd have to be wary.
I hope you find the above of some use.
Sincerely yours,
Eric O. Costello 01:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Thinking it over, the opening paragraphs should be streamlined somewhat, and should function as more of a general overview and introduction. Permit me to suggest the following:
The Mutual Broadcasting System was an American radio network that operated from 1934 to 1999, as one of the four major national networks of the classic era of American radio, along with NBC, CBS, and Blue Network/ American Broadcasting Company. It was known for its distinctive, co-operative style of ownership that lasted from its founding through the early 1950s, as well as a number of landmark action/adventure shows, such as the Lone Ranger, The Shadow, and The Adventures of Superman (radio), as well as its sports coverage; later on, it would be the radio network that would launch Larry King's career. Through its involvement in landmark litigation in the early 1940s over the means by which NBC and CBS controlled their affiliates, MBS played a major role in reshaping the way radio was conducted as an industry. From the 1950s through the end of its existence, the network underwent a long series of successive management and ownership changes, which eventually resulted in its dissolution as an independent entity.
You may need to adjust the links, but you get the idea. Use this as you see fit.
Sincerely yours,
Eric O. Costello 00:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
This article states "Late in the decade, there was a brief exploration into the idea of launching a Mutual television network, serious enough to prompt talks with MGM as a potential source of programming talent.[44] The plans never got off the ground and Mutual thus became the only one of the "Big Four" U.S. radio networks not to start (and eventually be dominated by) a television network."
The more I dig into old broadcasting history, the more evidence I find that despite what established history states, Mutual seems to have ventured into television.
The 1952 Hollywood Reporter Production Encyclopedia indicates there were a number of Mutual television affiliates around 1951-1952; it lists affiliations of stations in late 1951/early 1952 on pages 700-725. It lists these stations:
This site claims KPTV in Portland, OR "As Portland's only television station, KPTV spent its first twelve months "cherry-picking" programs from NBC, CBS, ABC, DuMont... even the Mutual network."
The Internet Movie Database includes an entry on Telemount-Mutual, a joint Paramount/Mutual venture, at [1] . Cowboy G-Men is listed as a Telemount-Mutual program.
It seems clear Mutual did venture into television, if only on a limited basis. Firsfron of Ronchester 23:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Besides the microphone logo at the top of this article, there was also a logo for Mutual consisting of an antenna and a pair of wings, which can be seen on the article for RKO Television. As well, at the bottom of posters for the Mutual Black Network, a logo can be seen of a microphone between 2 diagonal lines to form a capital M. Have there been other logos for Mutual? And during what periods were each logo used? Jeremicus rex ( talk) 21:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Several of the images in this article are way too large. They include
Image:LumAbnerHorlicks.jpg (325px),
Image:WellesShadow.jpg (300px),
Image:FultonLewisAd.jpg (300px),
Image:KFRCMutualDonLeeLogo.jpg (300px),
Image:QueenForADay.gif (325px),
Image:MutualComo54a.jpg (200px),
Image:MutualFisher54a.jpg (200px),
Image:SerlingZeroHour.jpg (300px), and
Image:DickCarkAd.gif (325px). None of the images have the sort of detail that would require resolution above the default. The images that are more vertical than horizontal should be marked with "
upright
" so that they aren't oversized; one image,
Image:FultonLewisAd.jpg, should be marked with upright=1.3
so that it's larger than usual (but not as huge as it is now).
The above advice would result in images the following sizes. They main photos and text of these images are all quite legible, even on a high-resolution screen.
frameless
File:SerlingZeroHour.jpg
frameless|upright
This compares to the current size, which is way too large. Just one example:
I installed a change along these lines, but it was almost immediately reverted with the edit summary "caption text (which is article text) was vetted and approved in FAC--discuss in Talk any desired changes which might substantively affect them". My change had moved some caption text to the body of the article (I didn't delete anything), simply to avoid having these very long captions attached to smaller images, which is visually unappealing. If you'd rather have the long captions that's OK with me, my main objection is that the images are too large. I read the FAC and don't see anything there that "vetted and approved" the idea that the caption text should be very long and the images should be very large. All that I saw vetted was some of the details in the caption text, and these details were still in the article after my edits. Eubulides ( talk) 08:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me Mutual does not meet the definition of a cooperative. Most stations did not have an ownership interest in the network. The few (listed in the article) did not have an equal interest. Most stations did not contribute programming to the network; programming came from the same few stations which had an ownership interest. In contrast, NPR is a cooperative. All "member stations" have an equal interest in the network (and an equal voice in selecting the governing board). Mutual was unique in that (some) stations owned the network, not the other way around. It seems Mutual might better be described as a joint venture among a handful of large independent stations and regional networks (until RKO General acquired a controlling interest by buying WOR, CKLW, WHK, Don Lee and Colonial). Michaelcarraher ( talk) 00:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This article says 1936; the Don Lee Broadcasting entry says 1934. Timbabwe ( talk) 03:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Is Alfred E. Newman properly included in "People" under "See also" or is this a joke? Thank you, RadioBroadcast ( talk) 15:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mutual Broadcasting System/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This link now appears to be dead: 41; Some History of the Mutual Broadcasting System electronic correspondence from historian Elizabeth McLeod dated "Mon, 12 APR 99." Retrieved 1/25/07. 98.151.56.147 ( talk) 23:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 23:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 00:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
![]() | Mutual Broadcasting System is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 29, 2009. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Anon, thanks for the work. It looks like your sources were much more detailed than mine. I had been under the impression that the Quality Network lasted longer.
What was the arrangement (if any) between the stations in the years inbetween the demise of Quality and the start of Mutual? I was under the impression they continued sharing programing, is this false? -- Infrogmation 04:44 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I rolled back an anonymous contribution that discussed the quality of the article within the article, someone should edit and incorporate the accurate and relevant bits and make sure it comports with encyclopedia standards. dml 13:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I have failed to establish exactly what the relation was between Mutual Broadcasting Company and Mutual Broadcasting System, but they seem to be used interchangeably, so I made Mutual Broadcasting Company a redirect. Algae 12:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Suggest inclusion of several other Mutual Broadcasting System citations, sample scripts, recordings and/or links, including, at the least:
Jerry Haendiges also posts a few Mutual Broadcasting System episodes each month, but they're not permanent links.
As per the request left on my page, I've read over your site, at least for a once-over, "strikes me" kind of review. I'm not the world's best at the formatting type stuff, so please excuse the lack of practical comments in that regard.
Aside from correcting one minor error (the year of Pearl Harbor), a quick read didn't disclose anything I thought was flamingly wrong. The nature of OTR scholarship being what it is, I know there's a lot of conflicting material out there, but judging from a reading of the footnotes, you seem to have a grip on that. I just re-read "The Murrow Boys," by Stanley Cloud & Lynne Olson. This is about Edward R. Murrow and the rise (and fall) of CBS News, focusing on the 1930s and 1940s. The authors there take the position that both NBC and Mutual made a bad error in judgement in September of '39 by halting broadcasts from abroad: "by the time they regained their senses a couple of critical months later, CBS' dominance was clear." (page 58). You can take that for what you wish.
Another thing that struck me about Mutual is the sheer number of serial/kiddie programs that it created or broadcast. Cisco Kid, Superman, Green Hornet, Lone Ranger, the Shadow, et alia. Granted, many of these moved on to other networks, but this is a noteworthy fact, I think.
In terms of structure, I would break up the sections a bit more, splitting your decade discussions between subsections on corporate movements and on-air movements. This might make it flow better, with smaller, easier-to-digest sections, especially if some readers are a little less interested in the corporate stuff. (I'm an ex-corporate lawyer, so I don't count!)
Mutual's tussle with NBC ended in victory for Mutual, and resulted in a significant change in the way radio networks do business (e.g., forcing them to get rid of talent booking agencies, changing affiliation contracts, &c.). The role of Mutual's anti-trust lawsuit might be worthwhile exploring.
Ray Swing, if I'm not mistaken, moved on to Blue/ABC; I think he's the same guy I mention in my article. Which brings up the point that you allude to, which is how much Mutual stuff ended up moving to the other networks, even up to the Queen for a Day era. Bit of hard luck for Mutual, if you ask me.
Pretty good selection of pictures, I thought. I think somewhere else on Wiki there's a nice photo of Jackson Beck with Bud Collyer, standing in front of a Mutual microphone at a Superman broadcast. (Addendum -- the picture is at the entry for the Adventures of Superman radio show.) I'd also recommend a subscription to newspaperarchive.com, where I got a bunch of my advertisement illustrations for my article. If you acquire some items on eBay for your collection, like matchbooks or publicity photographs or publicity handouts and the like, these can add more spice. (You have some of this with those local materials.) How about a photo of FDR with NBC, CBS and Mutual microphones?
One thing I've been thinking about adding to my article, but need to figure out the logistics, are tag-line excerpts. Perhaps more important for an outfit that changed its identity, like the Blue Network, but still, a collection of clips as to how Mutual advertised itself over the decades, especially with its change in ownership, might be a worthwhile thing. I believe a lot of OTR stuff is public domain, so you may not have issues with using sound clips. Later clips, you might have issues, of course, so you'd have to be wary.
I hope you find the above of some use.
Sincerely yours,
Eric O. Costello 01:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Thinking it over, the opening paragraphs should be streamlined somewhat, and should function as more of a general overview and introduction. Permit me to suggest the following:
The Mutual Broadcasting System was an American radio network that operated from 1934 to 1999, as one of the four major national networks of the classic era of American radio, along with NBC, CBS, and Blue Network/ American Broadcasting Company. It was known for its distinctive, co-operative style of ownership that lasted from its founding through the early 1950s, as well as a number of landmark action/adventure shows, such as the Lone Ranger, The Shadow, and The Adventures of Superman (radio), as well as its sports coverage; later on, it would be the radio network that would launch Larry King's career. Through its involvement in landmark litigation in the early 1940s over the means by which NBC and CBS controlled their affiliates, MBS played a major role in reshaping the way radio was conducted as an industry. From the 1950s through the end of its existence, the network underwent a long series of successive management and ownership changes, which eventually resulted in its dissolution as an independent entity.
You may need to adjust the links, but you get the idea. Use this as you see fit.
Sincerely yours,
Eric O. Costello 00:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
This article states "Late in the decade, there was a brief exploration into the idea of launching a Mutual television network, serious enough to prompt talks with MGM as a potential source of programming talent.[44] The plans never got off the ground and Mutual thus became the only one of the "Big Four" U.S. radio networks not to start (and eventually be dominated by) a television network."
The more I dig into old broadcasting history, the more evidence I find that despite what established history states, Mutual seems to have ventured into television.
The 1952 Hollywood Reporter Production Encyclopedia indicates there were a number of Mutual television affiliates around 1951-1952; it lists affiliations of stations in late 1951/early 1952 on pages 700-725. It lists these stations:
This site claims KPTV in Portland, OR "As Portland's only television station, KPTV spent its first twelve months "cherry-picking" programs from NBC, CBS, ABC, DuMont... even the Mutual network."
The Internet Movie Database includes an entry on Telemount-Mutual, a joint Paramount/Mutual venture, at [1] . Cowboy G-Men is listed as a Telemount-Mutual program.
It seems clear Mutual did venture into television, if only on a limited basis. Firsfron of Ronchester 23:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Besides the microphone logo at the top of this article, there was also a logo for Mutual consisting of an antenna and a pair of wings, which can be seen on the article for RKO Television. As well, at the bottom of posters for the Mutual Black Network, a logo can be seen of a microphone between 2 diagonal lines to form a capital M. Have there been other logos for Mutual? And during what periods were each logo used? Jeremicus rex ( talk) 21:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Several of the images in this article are way too large. They include
Image:LumAbnerHorlicks.jpg (325px),
Image:WellesShadow.jpg (300px),
Image:FultonLewisAd.jpg (300px),
Image:KFRCMutualDonLeeLogo.jpg (300px),
Image:QueenForADay.gif (325px),
Image:MutualComo54a.jpg (200px),
Image:MutualFisher54a.jpg (200px),
Image:SerlingZeroHour.jpg (300px), and
Image:DickCarkAd.gif (325px). None of the images have the sort of detail that would require resolution above the default. The images that are more vertical than horizontal should be marked with "
upright
" so that they aren't oversized; one image,
Image:FultonLewisAd.jpg, should be marked with upright=1.3
so that it's larger than usual (but not as huge as it is now).
The above advice would result in images the following sizes. They main photos and text of these images are all quite legible, even on a high-resolution screen.
frameless
File:SerlingZeroHour.jpg
frameless|upright
This compares to the current size, which is way too large. Just one example:
I installed a change along these lines, but it was almost immediately reverted with the edit summary "caption text (which is article text) was vetted and approved in FAC--discuss in Talk any desired changes which might substantively affect them". My change had moved some caption text to the body of the article (I didn't delete anything), simply to avoid having these very long captions attached to smaller images, which is visually unappealing. If you'd rather have the long captions that's OK with me, my main objection is that the images are too large. I read the FAC and don't see anything there that "vetted and approved" the idea that the caption text should be very long and the images should be very large. All that I saw vetted was some of the details in the caption text, and these details were still in the article after my edits. Eubulides ( talk) 08:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me Mutual does not meet the definition of a cooperative. Most stations did not have an ownership interest in the network. The few (listed in the article) did not have an equal interest. Most stations did not contribute programming to the network; programming came from the same few stations which had an ownership interest. In contrast, NPR is a cooperative. All "member stations" have an equal interest in the network (and an equal voice in selecting the governing board). Mutual was unique in that (some) stations owned the network, not the other way around. It seems Mutual might better be described as a joint venture among a handful of large independent stations and regional networks (until RKO General acquired a controlling interest by buying WOR, CKLW, WHK, Don Lee and Colonial). Michaelcarraher ( talk) 00:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This article says 1936; the Don Lee Broadcasting entry says 1934. Timbabwe ( talk) 03:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Is Alfred E. Newman properly included in "People" under "See also" or is this a joke? Thank you, RadioBroadcast ( talk) 15:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mutual Broadcasting System/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This link now appears to be dead: 41; Some History of the Mutual Broadcasting System electronic correspondence from historian Elizabeth McLeod dated "Mon, 12 APR 99." Retrieved 1/25/07. 98.151.56.147 ( talk) 23:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 23:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 00:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)