![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Here is the draft that I have in the sandbox, I may tweak it a bit more after copying it here but the time stamp on my signature will help folks find the first post. I am trying to discuss all types and have acknowledged Intothatdarkness' concerns that the "warmblood" or "heavy warmblood" claims are dubioius, and Wysong's comments that not all are Spanish type. That said, the Spanish type has special significance, so I think it appropriate to note it. Comments welcome. Montanabw (talk) 01:20, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
This is not the history section, this is a "what they look like" section - normally characteristics is the first main section, but in some horse articles, history comes first, may need to here.
The original mustangs were
Colonial Spanish horses, but many other breeds and types of horses contributed to the modern mustang, resulting in varying
phenotypes. Mustangs of all body types are described as
surefooted and having good endurance. They may be of any
coat color.
[1] Genetic contributions to today's free-roaming mustang herds include assorted ranch horses that escaped to or were turned out on the public lands, and estray horses used by the
United States Cavalry.
citation needed[cite to the relevant HMAs]. For example, in Idaho some Herd Management Areas (HMA) contain animals with known descent from Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse stallions turned out with feral herds. [cmt]
[2] Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with
gaited horse breeds. Horses in several HMAs retain Spanish horse traits, including
dun coloration and
primitive markings.
citation needed(additional sourcing) The herds located in two HMAs in central Nevada produce
Curly Horses.
[3]
[4] Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with
gaited horse breeds.
[5] Throughout all the BLM's HMAs, light riding horse type predominates, though a few horses with
draft horse characteristics also exist (cite to Colorado and Idaho HMA), mostly kept separate from other mustangs and confined to specific areas.
[6]
Several bands have had DNA testing and are verified to have significant Spanish ancestry. These include the Kiger Mustang, the Cerbat Mustang, [6] and the Pryor Mountain Mustang. [7] A 2010 study of the Pryor herd also showed that those mustangs shared genetic traits with other domestic horse breeds and thus were not a unique species which had survived in North America from prehistoric times. [7] Other genetic herd studies, such as one done in 2002 on the bands in the Challis, Idaho area, show a very mixed blend of Spanish, North American gaited horse, draft horse and pony influences. [8]
The now-defunct American Mustang Association developed a breed standard for those mustangs that carry morphological traits associated with the early Spanish horses. These include a well-proportioned body with a clean, refined head with wide forehead and small muzzle. The facial profile may be straight or slightly convex. Withers are moderate in height and the shoulder is to be "long and sloping." The standard considers a very short back, deep girth and muscular coupling over the loins as desirable. The croup is rounded, neither too flat nor goose-rumped. The tail is low-set. The legs are to be straight and sound. Hooves are round and dense. [1] Dun color and primitive markings are particularly common amongst horses of Spanish type.{[cn}}
I think what I've suggested above is more accurate and flows better. I also suggest putting the last paragraph in a "footnote" (as opposed to "citation") section, that lists the herds with appreciable Spanish ancestry. Could also make one for the draft horse and curly herds. I can't think of any more distinguishable traits that might be worth singling out. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 11:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
FYI, the strikeout and comments were getting pretty tangled, so I just pitched all of it, tried to incorporate the new material on the curlies, rearranged some stuff and so on. I'd say, just edit the thing (with as few saves as possible, just to avoid confusion) and we can compare diffs & discuss changes here. Maybe throw in a comment here and there that the other person can just toss when read. Might make it easier. Also, best for us both to be free with the {[cn}} tags and source as we go. Montanabw (talk) 08:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Random thoughts now that collaboration is working. Seems to me the article might benefit from a new "distribution" subsection, basically 1492 (or 1519) to circa 1930, perhaps within in the history section, to discuss the broad sweep of horse movement and when horses showed up where; your sandboxing of the Great Basin made me think of this. We can go beyond the BLM here if we can source it. That Haines source I found for the other article speaks of a horse trading center in New Mexico where Native people obtained horses circa 1650, and it appears horses appeared in Montana somewhere in the 1700s, via the Shoshone. The Nez Perce had horses that Lewis and Clark described as For example, horses in California probably can be sourced to be originally Spanish with other bloodlines coming in kind of late in the game (if the BLM is correct) Conversely, Texas may have been a melting pot for quite some time, though the Comanche may have brought in horses, the Spanish may have and people from the US South moving to Texas circa 1830 also. Will need really careful research and no speculation. We may have to use Dobie for that, but very, very carefully and not exclusively (if possible). Montanabw (talk) 22:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Adding to above, one reason is to address the "Indians caught wild horses escaped from Coronado's expedition" myth, it appears that it was debunked in 1938, but still persists. Another reason is to start to add in the "tame mustang" stuff like the Spanish Mustang breed, which (according to Sponenberg) is partly made up of never-feral animals. However, I also don't want to lump all the Colonial Spanish Hrose breeds with Mustangs, as there is at least a geographic and terminology difference, even if the Marsh Tacky has similar genetics.... Thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 22:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
There's nothing in Haines that negates the idea that the first feral herd derived from horses escaped from Coronado, (which is what Atsme actually said) just that many more horses were also subsequently brought up from Mexico by the Indians, who probably did not capture "wild" horses, but either traded for or stole them. Those horses would have added to any herds established from Coronado's horses and established new herds elsewhere in the dispersal path. I think the relevant story of the Spanish Mustang Registry is how its founder, Bob Brislawn, recognized in the early part of the 20th century that the original (Spanish} mustangs were disappearing, and so made it his mission to collect and save as many of them as possible. You can read the story here Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 23:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You tagged the following paragraph for citations. We probably need to do a bit of rewriting for precision, so perhaps first tell me what content you are challenging:
Native American people readily integrated use of the horse into their cultures. Among the most capable horse-breeding native tribes of North America were the Comanche, the Shoshone, and the Nez Perce people.The last in particular became master horse breeders, and developed one of the first distinctly American breeds, the Appaloosa. Most other tribes did not practice extensive amounts of selective breeding, though they sought out desirable horses through acquisition and quickly weeded out those with undesirable traits.
The first mustangs horses on the American continent were those brought by [Cortez]
citation needed [cmt] descended from horses brought to what is now the interior of
Mexico by the
Spanish
[A] raised on ranches there
[1] and then taken to
Santa Fe around 1600.
[2] They were captured by the Native Americans
[3] who spread horses by trade and other means throughout the
Great Plains, and the
Columbia and
Colorado River basins.
[4]
[B] where they escaped captivity and began to form feral herds, most notably in the Southern Great Plains. There is where historian
J. Frank Dobie stated the Spanish horses found the: "...American ranges corresponding in climate and soil to the arid lands of Spain, northern Africa and Arabia in which they originated".
[5]
I just took a whack at it, offering my views, a few edits, a lot of tags. At this point, though, I think you have some interesting material, but it's not very clear and organized yet. Maybe sandbox it a bit more, there's a lot of stuff that isn't needed (like if Ryden says there were horses in the Great Basin but they weren't then don't bother to use Ryden for that, just say the Utes had horses in what today is eastern Utah and western Colorado or whatever and source it to something better if there is something better...). My biggest problem is that your sourcing is incomplete. We can't put anything in until it is fully and properly sourced, and if a book, to a precise page number, not a 20-page range (like the pp 11-32, plus I'm rather concerned that Roe is going to be sensationalistic, but I'm willing to investigate the source further, I can get it locally at the same place as the Amaral one) So please provide complete sources, and if they are online in Google books, provide a link. As I have previously stated, we absolutely cannot synthesize or extrapolate - it's a fine line not to copy and paste or two closely paraphrase and yet not exceed scope of the source, but it can be done. I tagged what bugs me, if you think I'm wrong, just show the source, it's not about your opinion or mine, it's what the sources say and how reliable they are. Montanabw (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay, since we seem to be all over the place on this page, I boldly Made a new reorganized Sandbox page that takes the "History", "Ancestry" and "Mustangs today" sections from the article, along with the new proposed "Characteristics" page, and combined them all into "History" and "Characteristics and Derived Breeds" Sections. I think that putting all this together and doing "big picture" editing will lead to much less chaos. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 16:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:32, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
To put this article more in line with articles of other types of horses, I've removed most of the management discussion to another page as suggested here. Some might think there is too much emphasis on history in this article, but given the unique story of the mustang I believe it is necessary. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 17:31, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
An Observation. Remember the wiki golden rule: If a version of something has been remotely stable, and you change it, and anyone reverts it back to the stable rendition, you should never revert it back again until discussed here. Period. Of course if multiple people like the new version better (because of sourcing, spelling, phrasing, etc) that's a different story, but when it's pretty much 1on1 disagreement, there needs to be a conversation here before changing it to something new. I can also say that at tennis articles, if someone makes many poor choices, but does them step by step, I revert certain steps. But if there is a large amount of changes all jumbled in and interlinked, I will not sit there for an hour fixing things. I will go back to the original version, perhaps try to add back in the proper items, but leave a note on the editors talk page letting them know what's wrong and to re-do it without those controversial changes. Then we can talk about the controversial changes at the article talk page. Just my own musing here to get things smoothed out. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 20:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 14:09, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Before you (Montanbw) do your second reversion putting Mustang in the breed category, rather than the type category, please justify how the common name for dozens of isolated populations of horses of different phenotypes and ancestry can be characterized as one breed, or even a landrace? Please don't reference books on horse breeds, most of those are nothing but glorified vanity books that might loosely include mustangs, but provide no justification for why they are including horses that in no way meets the definition of breed. For your convenience, here are the WP definitions of the term breed and landrace:
Mustangs could be argued to be several different land races, but to include them in the "Breed category" you would have to change the name to "Breeds and land races" then include each separate HMA. (which had already been done for several, such as Kiger, Pryor and Cerbat - all of which are arguably NOT breeds, as well as the Banker horses, but are strains of the North American Colonial Spanish Horse breed) But the argument would not be a solid one, because the HMAs are not isolated from one another. Horses routinely migrate across HMA boundaries, and the BLM also mixes horses between HMAs for genetic diversity. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 17:27, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Bob Brislawn was not a cowboy. He worked as a packer for the U.S. Geological Survey. Packers used horses to deliver goods and equipment to survey parties. His children have published books about him. The one by Neil UiBreaslain is called The Way of an Irish Horseman, 2006.
Modern DNA research has established that Prewalski's horse was not one of the original wild horses. They are an offshoot of Equus Callabus which was created about 50,000 years ago. See Ladendorf, Janice M. Spanish Horsemen and Horses in the New World, 2015, p. 99.
Janice M. Ladendorf ( talk) 16:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Janice M. Ladendorf: Hi Janice, and welcome to the page. This is a friendly message and in no way intended to deter you from editing on Wikipedia. However, it is not usual for the writer of a work to be using their own work to support content. I think it might be OK to suggest it on a Talk page as you have done here, but you might wish to read WP:COI and Wikipedia:Expert editors. I am in a similar position, and these articles really do help. All the best, and happy editing. DrChrissy (talk) 17:26, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
This is common knowledge among scientists. One of references behind my statement is Orlando, Ludovic,etc. "Recalibrating Equus evolution using the genome sequence of an early Middle Pleistocene horse". Nature, July 4, 2013. Janice M. Ladendorf ( talk) 19:41, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
The Przewalski horse stuff is a red herring, needs to not go here. Takhi is a name in one of the native languages of the region. Whoever this new editor is, she is not making much sense; all horses were "wild" horses 50,000 years ago. I'll restore the Brislawn fix, but as usual, when there are a ton of changes, it's a real challenge to sort through the cruft. Montanabw (talk) 07:01, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Scientists agree that the horse evolved in North America and migrations between here and Asia began long before horses disappeared from this continent. If Prewalski's horse evolved 50,000 years ago as a separate subspecies with twp additional chromosomes, it could have had little or no impact on the evolution of the true horse. Like some of the zebra species, there is general agreement they could not be tamed. Some people argue that the horses who returned here with the Conquistadores are not a native species because evolutionary changes had occurred. DNA analysis contradicts this belief. In other words, Prewalski's horse is not one of the original subspecies of wild horses that preceded the evolution of Equus Callubus, but a separate and unique wild subspecies. Janice M. Ladendorf ( talk) 14:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Here is the draft that I have in the sandbox, I may tweak it a bit more after copying it here but the time stamp on my signature will help folks find the first post. I am trying to discuss all types and have acknowledged Intothatdarkness' concerns that the "warmblood" or "heavy warmblood" claims are dubioius, and Wysong's comments that not all are Spanish type. That said, the Spanish type has special significance, so I think it appropriate to note it. Comments welcome. Montanabw (talk) 01:20, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
This is not the history section, this is a "what they look like" section - normally characteristics is the first main section, but in some horse articles, history comes first, may need to here.
The original mustangs were
Colonial Spanish horses, but many other breeds and types of horses contributed to the modern mustang, resulting in varying
phenotypes. Mustangs of all body types are described as
surefooted and having good endurance. They may be of any
coat color.
[1] Genetic contributions to today's free-roaming mustang herds include assorted ranch horses that escaped to or were turned out on the public lands, and estray horses used by the
United States Cavalry.
citation needed[cite to the relevant HMAs]. For example, in Idaho some Herd Management Areas (HMA) contain animals with known descent from Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse stallions turned out with feral herds. [cmt]
[2] Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with
gaited horse breeds. Horses in several HMAs retain Spanish horse traits, including
dun coloration and
primitive markings.
citation needed(additional sourcing) The herds located in two HMAs in central Nevada produce
Curly Horses.
[3]
[4] Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with
gaited horse breeds.
[5] Throughout all the BLM's HMAs, light riding horse type predominates, though a few horses with
draft horse characteristics also exist (cite to Colorado and Idaho HMA), mostly kept separate from other mustangs and confined to specific areas.
[6]
Several bands have had DNA testing and are verified to have significant Spanish ancestry. These include the Kiger Mustang, the Cerbat Mustang, [6] and the Pryor Mountain Mustang. [7] A 2010 study of the Pryor herd also showed that those mustangs shared genetic traits with other domestic horse breeds and thus were not a unique species which had survived in North America from prehistoric times. [7] Other genetic herd studies, such as one done in 2002 on the bands in the Challis, Idaho area, show a very mixed blend of Spanish, North American gaited horse, draft horse and pony influences. [8]
The now-defunct American Mustang Association developed a breed standard for those mustangs that carry morphological traits associated with the early Spanish horses. These include a well-proportioned body with a clean, refined head with wide forehead and small muzzle. The facial profile may be straight or slightly convex. Withers are moderate in height and the shoulder is to be "long and sloping." The standard considers a very short back, deep girth and muscular coupling over the loins as desirable. The croup is rounded, neither too flat nor goose-rumped. The tail is low-set. The legs are to be straight and sound. Hooves are round and dense. [1] Dun color and primitive markings are particularly common amongst horses of Spanish type.{[cn}}
I think what I've suggested above is more accurate and flows better. I also suggest putting the last paragraph in a "footnote" (as opposed to "citation") section, that lists the herds with appreciable Spanish ancestry. Could also make one for the draft horse and curly herds. I can't think of any more distinguishable traits that might be worth singling out. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 11:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
FYI, the strikeout and comments were getting pretty tangled, so I just pitched all of it, tried to incorporate the new material on the curlies, rearranged some stuff and so on. I'd say, just edit the thing (with as few saves as possible, just to avoid confusion) and we can compare diffs & discuss changes here. Maybe throw in a comment here and there that the other person can just toss when read. Might make it easier. Also, best for us both to be free with the {[cn}} tags and source as we go. Montanabw (talk) 08:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Random thoughts now that collaboration is working. Seems to me the article might benefit from a new "distribution" subsection, basically 1492 (or 1519) to circa 1930, perhaps within in the history section, to discuss the broad sweep of horse movement and when horses showed up where; your sandboxing of the Great Basin made me think of this. We can go beyond the BLM here if we can source it. That Haines source I found for the other article speaks of a horse trading center in New Mexico where Native people obtained horses circa 1650, and it appears horses appeared in Montana somewhere in the 1700s, via the Shoshone. The Nez Perce had horses that Lewis and Clark described as For example, horses in California probably can be sourced to be originally Spanish with other bloodlines coming in kind of late in the game (if the BLM is correct) Conversely, Texas may have been a melting pot for quite some time, though the Comanche may have brought in horses, the Spanish may have and people from the US South moving to Texas circa 1830 also. Will need really careful research and no speculation. We may have to use Dobie for that, but very, very carefully and not exclusively (if possible). Montanabw (talk) 22:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Adding to above, one reason is to address the "Indians caught wild horses escaped from Coronado's expedition" myth, it appears that it was debunked in 1938, but still persists. Another reason is to start to add in the "tame mustang" stuff like the Spanish Mustang breed, which (according to Sponenberg) is partly made up of never-feral animals. However, I also don't want to lump all the Colonial Spanish Hrose breeds with Mustangs, as there is at least a geographic and terminology difference, even if the Marsh Tacky has similar genetics.... Thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 22:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
There's nothing in Haines that negates the idea that the first feral herd derived from horses escaped from Coronado, (which is what Atsme actually said) just that many more horses were also subsequently brought up from Mexico by the Indians, who probably did not capture "wild" horses, but either traded for or stole them. Those horses would have added to any herds established from Coronado's horses and established new herds elsewhere in the dispersal path. I think the relevant story of the Spanish Mustang Registry is how its founder, Bob Brislawn, recognized in the early part of the 20th century that the original (Spanish} mustangs were disappearing, and so made it his mission to collect and save as many of them as possible. You can read the story here Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 23:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You tagged the following paragraph for citations. We probably need to do a bit of rewriting for precision, so perhaps first tell me what content you are challenging:
Native American people readily integrated use of the horse into their cultures. Among the most capable horse-breeding native tribes of North America were the Comanche, the Shoshone, and the Nez Perce people.The last in particular became master horse breeders, and developed one of the first distinctly American breeds, the Appaloosa. Most other tribes did not practice extensive amounts of selective breeding, though they sought out desirable horses through acquisition and quickly weeded out those with undesirable traits.
The first mustangs horses on the American continent were those brought by [Cortez]
citation needed [cmt] descended from horses brought to what is now the interior of
Mexico by the
Spanish
[A] raised on ranches there
[1] and then taken to
Santa Fe around 1600.
[2] They were captured by the Native Americans
[3] who spread horses by trade and other means throughout the
Great Plains, and the
Columbia and
Colorado River basins.
[4]
[B] where they escaped captivity and began to form feral herds, most notably in the Southern Great Plains. There is where historian
J. Frank Dobie stated the Spanish horses found the: "...American ranges corresponding in climate and soil to the arid lands of Spain, northern Africa and Arabia in which they originated".
[5]
I just took a whack at it, offering my views, a few edits, a lot of tags. At this point, though, I think you have some interesting material, but it's not very clear and organized yet. Maybe sandbox it a bit more, there's a lot of stuff that isn't needed (like if Ryden says there were horses in the Great Basin but they weren't then don't bother to use Ryden for that, just say the Utes had horses in what today is eastern Utah and western Colorado or whatever and source it to something better if there is something better...). My biggest problem is that your sourcing is incomplete. We can't put anything in until it is fully and properly sourced, and if a book, to a precise page number, not a 20-page range (like the pp 11-32, plus I'm rather concerned that Roe is going to be sensationalistic, but I'm willing to investigate the source further, I can get it locally at the same place as the Amaral one) So please provide complete sources, and if they are online in Google books, provide a link. As I have previously stated, we absolutely cannot synthesize or extrapolate - it's a fine line not to copy and paste or two closely paraphrase and yet not exceed scope of the source, but it can be done. I tagged what bugs me, if you think I'm wrong, just show the source, it's not about your opinion or mine, it's what the sources say and how reliable they are. Montanabw (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay, since we seem to be all over the place on this page, I boldly Made a new reorganized Sandbox page that takes the "History", "Ancestry" and "Mustangs today" sections from the article, along with the new proposed "Characteristics" page, and combined them all into "History" and "Characteristics and Derived Breeds" Sections. I think that putting all this together and doing "big picture" editing will lead to much less chaos. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 16:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Mustang. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:32, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
To put this article more in line with articles of other types of horses, I've removed most of the management discussion to another page as suggested here. Some might think there is too much emphasis on history in this article, but given the unique story of the mustang I believe it is necessary. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 17:31, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
An Observation. Remember the wiki golden rule: If a version of something has been remotely stable, and you change it, and anyone reverts it back to the stable rendition, you should never revert it back again until discussed here. Period. Of course if multiple people like the new version better (because of sourcing, spelling, phrasing, etc) that's a different story, but when it's pretty much 1on1 disagreement, there needs to be a conversation here before changing it to something new. I can also say that at tennis articles, if someone makes many poor choices, but does them step by step, I revert certain steps. But if there is a large amount of changes all jumbled in and interlinked, I will not sit there for an hour fixing things. I will go back to the original version, perhaps try to add back in the proper items, but leave a note on the editors talk page letting them know what's wrong and to re-do it without those controversial changes. Then we can talk about the controversial changes at the article talk page. Just my own musing here to get things smoothed out. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 20:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 14:09, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Before you (Montanbw) do your second reversion putting Mustang in the breed category, rather than the type category, please justify how the common name for dozens of isolated populations of horses of different phenotypes and ancestry can be characterized as one breed, or even a landrace? Please don't reference books on horse breeds, most of those are nothing but glorified vanity books that might loosely include mustangs, but provide no justification for why they are including horses that in no way meets the definition of breed. For your convenience, here are the WP definitions of the term breed and landrace:
Mustangs could be argued to be several different land races, but to include them in the "Breed category" you would have to change the name to "Breeds and land races" then include each separate HMA. (which had already been done for several, such as Kiger, Pryor and Cerbat - all of which are arguably NOT breeds, as well as the Banker horses, but are strains of the North American Colonial Spanish Horse breed) But the argument would not be a solid one, because the HMAs are not isolated from one another. Horses routinely migrate across HMA boundaries, and the BLM also mixes horses between HMAs for genetic diversity. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 17:27, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Bob Brislawn was not a cowboy. He worked as a packer for the U.S. Geological Survey. Packers used horses to deliver goods and equipment to survey parties. His children have published books about him. The one by Neil UiBreaslain is called The Way of an Irish Horseman, 2006.
Modern DNA research has established that Prewalski's horse was not one of the original wild horses. They are an offshoot of Equus Callabus which was created about 50,000 years ago. See Ladendorf, Janice M. Spanish Horsemen and Horses in the New World, 2015, p. 99.
Janice M. Ladendorf ( talk) 16:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Janice M. Ladendorf: Hi Janice, and welcome to the page. This is a friendly message and in no way intended to deter you from editing on Wikipedia. However, it is not usual for the writer of a work to be using their own work to support content. I think it might be OK to suggest it on a Talk page as you have done here, but you might wish to read WP:COI and Wikipedia:Expert editors. I am in a similar position, and these articles really do help. All the best, and happy editing. DrChrissy (talk) 17:26, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
This is common knowledge among scientists. One of references behind my statement is Orlando, Ludovic,etc. "Recalibrating Equus evolution using the genome sequence of an early Middle Pleistocene horse". Nature, July 4, 2013. Janice M. Ladendorf ( talk) 19:41, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
The Przewalski horse stuff is a red herring, needs to not go here. Takhi is a name in one of the native languages of the region. Whoever this new editor is, she is not making much sense; all horses were "wild" horses 50,000 years ago. I'll restore the Brislawn fix, but as usual, when there are a ton of changes, it's a real challenge to sort through the cruft. Montanabw (talk) 07:01, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Scientists agree that the horse evolved in North America and migrations between here and Asia began long before horses disappeared from this continent. If Prewalski's horse evolved 50,000 years ago as a separate subspecies with twp additional chromosomes, it could have had little or no impact on the evolution of the true horse. Like some of the zebra species, there is general agreement they could not be tamed. Some people argue that the horses who returned here with the Conquistadores are not a native species because evolutionary changes had occurred. DNA analysis contradicts this belief. In other words, Prewalski's horse is not one of the original subspecies of wild horses that preceded the evolution of Equus Callubus, but a separate and unique wild subspecies. Janice M. Ladendorf ( talk) 14:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
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