![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
With the way that Mustangs are being taken out of the wild at a higher percent each year, why is that because the horses are living off of forage that cattle and other domesticated animals can not even begin to eat. Are the people in the govenrment being to harsh on the Mustangs that helped found our Country?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.170.5 ( talk • contribs) 09:35, September 7, 2004
Take a look to The natural horse by Jaime Jackson. After many years of study of US wild horse, he says that Mustang is not a breed, but a complex mixtures of almost any existing breeds. Wikipedia has no entry "wild horse" so far. Can anybody solve this problem? I'm Italian, and my English is not so good.
-- Alex brollo 18:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Looking over the article for historical tweaks, I noticed there appeared to be something of an anti-mustang bias to what is written. I am not a wild horse romanticist, but I also am not a cattle ranching apologist. So, I took a stab at trying to improve upon the neutrality of the article, or at least to sharpen the horns of the dilemma and outline where the controversies are and who the players are.
There was also just a need for a little more rearranging and editing. Hope the overall effect was an improvement. Montanabw 22:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I Love Mustangs.It is a beutifull Horse.With a big and very wild Heart! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.114.3 ( talk • contribs) 05:32, August 26, 2006
I notice a portion of this article comments on wild horses in America dying off from the great flood, and directs people to read about BIBLE/GENESIS/NOAH - is this article really the place to include something like that? -- Deathsushi 16:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
these animals are specil and have been in my family for years — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.51.158.105 ( talk • contribs) 18:16, December 14, 2006
An anonymous user wrote that mustangs live 4000 to 8000 years. I removed that sentence. Does anyone know how long feral mustangs really live? Rockoval 1:57 30 Dec, 2006 (UTC)
Disambiguation at the top of an article might be needed when someone types in a term, but goes to an article for a different subject. For example, if someone wanted to find out about "House" the TV show, they would type in house but read an article about buildings.
It is not reasonable to suppose that a person would type in "mustang (horse)" when they are thinking of an Automobile or any of the other meanings of "mustang". We can assume that everyone viewing this article intends to read about horses. So there is no purpose to disambiguation here. Also, neither "wild horse" nor "feral" redirect to this article, so there is no need to mention them either. -- Yath 00:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm mostly trying to figure out the disambiguation standard because it is unevenly applied. Put simply, I really don't see the "crime" in cross-linking an article back to the disambiguation page. For example, White horse doesn't get you the article about white colored horses, it gets you a kind-of disambiguation page that lists pubs in England and a "oh by the way, here's other stuff it could mean." I guess I am trying to figure out what is the huge problem that will crash Wikipedia with having a link to the Mustang disambiguation page and the wild horse articles at the top of this one. Seems that a cross-reference at the top is useful for more than just for disambiguation...for example, a person reading an article on horses clicks the piped link that says "Mustang," and comes to this article, but then while reading, thinks "what about the car or the ball team?" I really am not convinced that I was misusing the concept by putting two handy and commonly used cross-references at the top. I mean, it's true we have no cross-reference to English pubs on the White (horse) page, but that's not a real common problem. This is not worth an edit war, however. I suppose what we now have is a policy dispute. Montanabw 19:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
This article gives the etymology of the word Mustang as being derived from the Spanish "Mesteño". I am not aware of any such word in the Spanish language. If there any proof of this etymology? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 09:56, February 1, 2007 ( talk • contribs) 09:56, February 1, 2007
Tmangray 03:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It's unlikely, and indeed, my dictionary demonstrates that the word mustang does not come from the formal name of a particular association of pastoralists in Spain. Actually, La Mesta derived its name from the same common source as the word mustang. A mesteño (became mestengo in New Spain/Mexico) is a stray animal. It could refer to a domesticated animal on the loose, or a feral animal. A mesta was a meeting of pastoralists to sort out which animal belonged to whom. LA Mesta was not the only mesta. The word mesteño also often carried the sense of a mongrelized animal since animals on the loose typically did not care to follow the breeding rules of pastoralists. This sense has its roots in the Latin origin of both mustang and La Mesta: mixta (Medieval Latin) and mixtus, past participle of miscere "to mix". This sense has been preserved in the familiar usage "mustang", as one of their essential characteristics is their wildly mixed pedigree. Tmangray 03:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
You both will be able to settle this if you would simply cite to verifiable, authoritative sources. How about both of you actually providing a full citation to "my dictionary" in a proper footnote, and if there are multiple definitions (try the etymology of buckaroo, if you want to see a REAL mess), then present them both and discuss the controversy. I am tired of these kind of discussions when a few footnotes would solve many a problem. And maybe create a sandbox section here on the talk page to work out an acceptable definition instead of having an edit war in the main article. JMHO. Montanabw 00:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I have had some similar discussions over Buckaroo, Vaquero, Bakhara, and if the word is Latin, Arabic or even African in origin. Usually the best approach is to just "teach the controversy" as they say. Unless, of course, we have a medieval Spanish scholar amongst us. (but then, the African origin theory of Buckaroo did some from some scholarly type, meaning even they can be wrong) Ah words... Montanabw (talk) 21:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I already said above that there is no way mestengo can derive from mesteño. Check ANY book about the evolution of the sounds of the Spanish language (Ralph Penny's is probably easy to find in the US, or the old Menéndez Pidal), or a Spanish etymology dictionary, like the Corominas one mentioned in the Mesta article. Or even the brief etymology note in the OED, if you can't read Spanish (oh, and by the way, OED is the Oxford English Dictionary, not the uncredited, unreliable online etymology dictionary I have sometimes seen quoted in wikipedia). It is mesteño that derives from mestengo. The word "derived" is obviously wrongly used in Websters. Tmangray's statements about what words are supposed to mean are absurd, based in his idea that his interpretation of the English word belonging has to translate exactly into the meaning of the suffix, which shows how little he knows about philology (Or is madrileño supposed to mean belonging to Madrid?). If you actually care about finding out what is really known more than you care about winning petty arguments, you will check it yourselves in the books I mentioned. Me, I have better things to do. 72.89.121.75 13:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
what kind of horse is not a wild horse — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.76.180 ( talk • contribs) 16:18, May 2, 2007
Far too much sarcasm in both edit summaries and in previous edits. If you have something constructive to add, please add it and cite it to a verifiable source. If you have a problem with the article and have neither the time nor ability to fix it, then please bring it here and don't just trash the article with excessive tags. This is no longer cute. Montanabw 23:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Why has half the article simply been deleted? How rude. The article cited above is grossly outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Wanderlust ( talk • contribs) 10:13, May 17, 2007
Why not just say that the horses were brought to America by the Spanish, or by Spaniards, rather than talking about Conquistadors or invaders? It is common knowledge that the Spaniards conquered/invaded America (or parts of it. In fact, the areas were mustangs are most common were not necessarily under Spanish control). 72.89.115.41 16:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
OK campers: Here is the text in the article as it stands today (July 18). Start editing -- but add verifiable sources, I will wordsmith and attempt to mediate spats, and if we ever get to something EVERYONE can live with, it will be moved into the main article. Ready! Set! Go! Montanabw (talk) 22:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The English word "mustang" comes from the Mexican Spanish word mestengo, derived from Spanish mesteño, meaning "stray" or "feral animal". The Spanish word in turn may possibly originate from the Latin expression animalia mixta (mixed beasts), referring to beasts of uncertain ownership, which were distributed in shepherd councils, known as mestas in medieval Spain. [1] A mestengo was any animal distributed in those councils, and by extension any feral animal.
Please discuss improvements or changes to this article here other than minor edits. There are active editors and many POV issues surrounding the topic, making a need for consensus and collaboration part of this process. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
In the caption to the photo. What does that mean? "Good" is not a scientific qualifier, but a subjective evaluation. Is this innuendo? "Good bone." I would change it to something more descriptive, but I have little knowledge on the subject. 97.113.110.19 ( talk) 19:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what everyone's problem here is, but as far as I am concerned, it is established procedure to use an inline external link such as this Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act of 1971 when referring to what is in that link at that position in the text, as opposed to providing a general further information resource, which is the true function of an external link section. There is a distinct difference between the purpose of the two.
Using it as an inline reference is not appropriate because it is not a third party source for the claim being made, and is thus a self-reference, which makes using an explicit in line external link type reference even more appropriate. Secondly, to verify the claim you need to read the entire linked document, and be aware of all previous documents, to make the judgement that the protection being referred to has increased. This is not how verification of facts is achieved when presenting facts as in line citations, which more appropriately should link to sections/page numbers, or provide a hook search term.
The redlink argument is completely spurious, and now we have two redlinks for the act in the article. MickMacNee ( talk) 14:29, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I despratly need a picture of a mustang, if you can please find the link copy it and add a reply to this with the link in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.136.48 ( talk) 22:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to put in that Mustangs in Northern Arizona were called Broomies. Referance too Stella Hughes book of her husband Mac Hughes, "Hashknife Cowboy" July 19 2011 Ryttar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryttar ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Hey anyone who has posted this, to remind you,
Mustang is a nepali name of a place in Nepal a high altitude place. Please give information about Mustang as a place as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.184.63.104 ( talk) 16:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Mustangs are feral horses, because they have domesticated ancestors. They are not wild horses. Please discuss here if you have a different opinion. Dana boomer ( talk) 20:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Dana said: "As far as "mestengo" goes - I don't have the dictionary edition that is listed as the source for this statement, but I trust the editors who have been working on this article in the past, and I trust them not to misrepresent sources. It's a policy called assume good faith. My edition of Webster's, however, says that "mestango" means stray livestock. I don't see a huge problem in assuming that another version of Webster's says "stray or feral". Besides, you cannot use the argument that just because "mestango" meant "wild stock", it means that mustangs are wild - the source of a word does not transfer meaning from the old word to the new word, if that makes sense." Correct, If you are not able to find the source that specifically states "mestengo" means "feral", then you cannot keep stating it. If you have a "good faith policy" then why are you dismissing 30 years of scientific study and evidence provided by two PHD's in the field?) Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 16:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
The present day wild Mustangs are wild horses. They've never been in captivity. Feral horses are domestic horses that have escaped captivity, as I've already pointed out by WP's own definition of "feral." Once a wild animal that has been "domesticated" returns to the wild, IT RETURNS TO "WILD." The domesticated Spanish horses brought over to the North American continent have long been dead.
As I've also pointed out, just because chimpanzees are serving beers in a bar in Thailand, does that mean chimpanzees are no longer a wild animal?
Please correct your article as soon as possible, removing "feral" from your POV vocabulary. Thank you. uGrrlace ( talk) 16:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC) Grrace ( talk) 18:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I see that Wikipedia has a way to tag articles that use "weasel" words. Stating that Mestengo means "feral" is a weasel word, and as soon as I figure out how to tag it in your software, I will do so. This word has already been tagged by someone else that there are no reliable sources to back up the claim. Under WP rules, it should be removed, as it has been tagged since 2007. Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 17:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Your source for mestengo, still does not include the word "feral." Please remove the word "feral." Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 23:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Per your e-mail, talk pages are just as easy to edit as the articles themselves. You aren't able to edit any page (including talk pages) but your own while you are blocked. You just click on the edit button at the top (or to the side of a section) and add your comments to the bottom of the preceeding comments.
As for your source (Ann Forsten, 1992. Mitochondrial-DNA timetable and the evolution of Equus: Comparison of molecular and paleontological evidence. Ann. Zool. Fennici 28: 301-309.). As far as I can see, all this source says is that there were horses present at one time in North America. It does not say that horses survived through to the present day. Horses went extinct in North America many thousand years ago, and the free roaming horses now living in the west (the mustangs) are descendents of domesticated horses brought by Europeans. As the Mustang article currently says:
Primitive horses lived in North America in prehistoric times, but died out at the end of the last ice age around 10-12,000 years ago, possibly due to climate change or the impact of newly-arrived human hunters.[3] Horses returned to the Americas with the Conquistadors, beginning with Columbus, who imported horses from Spain to the West Indies on his second voyage in 1493.[4] Domesticated horses came to the mainland with the arrival of Cortés in 1519.[5]
And this is all sourced by reliable references. Although the source you have is a nice bit of research and writing, it does not say that horses did not become extinct. If there are some groups that claim that the mustangs should be regarded as wild because many thousands of years ago there were horses in N. America that subsequently went extinct, then please provide reliable references and we will probably be able to work something into the article. However, as you can see, not everyone agrees with your POV, so the wording and references needs to be worked out on talk pages (here for now, the Mustang page once your block expires), rather than the article itself. Dana boomer ( talk) 13:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a movement, under the leadership of equine scientists Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, to change the status of the mustang from "feral" to "wild", at least as it is seen by the US government. The definition of feral allows the mustangs to also be defined as an intrusive, exotic species, and called a threat to true native wildlife. However, Kirkpatrick and Fazio point out that since there were native horses on the North American continent at one point (albiet dying out at the end of the Pleistocene era), horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore they should be defined as "wild". Kirkpatrick and Fazio claim that since the two main elements for defining a native species are whether or not it coevolved with its habitat and where it originated, the mustang can be considered to have done both, if you look at the ancient horse that went subsequently went extinct. Despite these arguments, the mustang is still regarded as feral and non-native by most government agencies,(Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
Oh I get it, WP articles can't be made by "PETA" people, or people who "hug bunnies?" And, those POV's are not valid? And any citations provided by those kinds of writers are dismissed because they are coming in later? Is that WP's position? Even when DNA is revealed...it's "end of story?" Excuse me, who are you to claim "end of story?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grrace ( talk • contribs) 17:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Dana, you have still not addressed my questions above, regarding "mestengo" meaning "feral." That seemed to be your whole basis for calling wild American Mustangs "feral." Now, you've changed it to "government agencies" consider them "feral." So, the questions again are, what are you basing your "feral" argument on, and lets go from there. If the WP definition cannot be used, what definition are you relying on?
Additionally, Montanabw, has lumped me in with "There is a movement, under the leadership of equine scientists Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, to change the status of the mustang from "feral" to "wild", at least as it is seen by the US government." Wow...thanks for the tip...didn't know there was such a "movement."
Therefore, how many scientists do you need? How old does a species need to be, before WP considers them native?
Also, Dana, you state above "I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions," however, I was unaware that this article was based on opinions. Do you not consider facts? Or, should we no longer converse because according to Montanabw, it's "end of story?" Oh yeah, and now I'm reduced to "fringe." Now that's like continuing to argue the world is flat, or Pluto is still a planet, citation:( http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.nl.html?pid=23558)...look the NM legislature decides to delare it a planet anyway! If you are not open to new scientific discoveries, such as Equus originated in North America, citation:( http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm), then I'm not sure what else will bring y'all up to speed. Grrace ( talk) 18:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
What is YOUR source that proves that wild mustangs are "feral?" Thank you. 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 23:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Dana, yep, that's me. I read all your sources, did you? 1. American Museum of Natural History..."quick facts." We don't know who wrote the "quick facts" page or when, as it is not signed by the author, there are no citations for the one unscientific sentence referring to wild horses considered "feral" horses. Sounds like it needs to be updated.
2. The scientist you quote in the National Geographic article is Joel Berger, and he is refuted throughout the article, with DNA evidence to the contrary. The article is written by Kirkpatrick! I'm glad you consider National Geographic a reliable source. I've seen another article I'd like to cite, when I find it again I'll post it here.
3. Another Kirkpatrick article, but I don't see who you are quoting to prove the "feral" part. But since you consider LiveScience a credible source, I'll place in my Live Science citation here http://www.livescience.com/animals/060501_extinct_horses.html. This source includes an additional scientist Michael Hofreiter, Department of Evolution genetics. I have emailed author Bjorn Carey as to her bio, but not heard back yet. Your article (source) actually proves my point, instead of yours. I quote your article "they (wild horses) were 'designated' feral, and regarded as intrusive exotic animals..." But why did you stop reading there? It continues "...But as E. cabullus, they are not so alien after all." Your article also continues on to compare Przewalski as equal to E. cabullus, genetically speaking.
4. This source is written by the BLM, not exactly a neutral party. Of course they're going to put out disinformation, wild horses compete with their land leases to ranchers.
5. Encyclopedia of Historic and Endangered Livestock and Poultry Breeds. I cannot find when this was written, the only date I can find is 1975. Author Janet Vorwald Dohner is a librarian. Not a scientist. However she does state (in her Preface) that she welcomes updates as DNA evolves. Addtionally, she also states, I quote her here, "Altough technically the word "feral" describes the animals, to most Americans these are wild horses, acknowledged by Congress with the THE WILD FREE-ROAMING HORSE AND BURRO ACT OF 1971. Therefore, 1975 sounds about right, and of course, we will always be able to find old sources that need to be updated.
So let's back up a moment. You stated that you are not disputing that wild horses were on the North American continent at one time. But are you disputing that American Wild Mustangs are a native North American species? If so, I have another citation loaded with additional scientists...if you need me to type out all their names, I'm happy to do so. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences http://www.pnas.org/search?fulltext=wild+horse+extinction&submit=yes&go.x=11&go.y=13fulltext=wild+horse+extinction&submit=yes&go.x=11&go.y=13
Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 02:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Why have you removed my last paragraph and citations? Grrace ( talk) 03:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 03:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Montana, Mustangs are not feral. You are using the word "feral" incorrectly. Mustangs are a native species to North America, therefore, cannot be classified as "feral." Thank you. 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 16:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, you are incorrect. Mustangs descend from tamed horses as they are the genetic equivelent to the native North American species. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grrace ( talk • contribs) 17:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I have already provided you with the sources, but apparently you have dismissed them. Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 17:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I know, the wild versus feral discussion flares up every once and a while. Yes, the US government uses 'wild' for the feral horses called mustangs. That are policy documents, laws and they are free to use language as they like, but that does not make it proper usage. Equus ferus caballus is a subspecies of the Wild Horse, Equus ferus ferus. This wild species (Equus ferus ferus) roamed North America till about 10,000 years ago. They were never domesticated in North America on their own, and only reintroduced in the domesticated form after Columbus arrived. Some of those domesticated horses (Equus ferus caballus) became free-roaming again, resulting in herds of feral horses. Domestication has changed the wild horse (Equus ferus ferus) in many ways, to the point where scientists consider it a different subspecies (Equus ferus caballus). Domestication takes many generations, and is not lost within a single generation. The free roaming herds of domestic horses are feral horses. The ONLY free-roaming herds of true wild horse can be found in Mongolia, and belong to the third subspecies. Equus ferus prewalskii. Let me know if I need to explain aspects in more detail. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Again, this is an old argument and current DNA analysis shows the evidence. Please read my sources. Additionally, I was told that WP references could not be used, however, all of you keep linking back to the WP "wild horse" article. I'm finished. Thank you Grrace ( talk) 15:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
You wrote: "Domestication takes many generations, and is not lost within a single generation." A generation in human terms is 35 years. What, in your mind, is it for the wild horse? Where did they get the horses to "domesticate?" Anwser...from the wild. The definition of domestication is "Domesticated animals are not just tamer than their wild ancestors; they are different genetically." So, therefore, the DNA evidence shows that wild horses were more likely tamed, instead of "domesticated" because the modern Mustang is a genetic equivilent to the wild horse that originated in North American. Thank you. 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 17:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC) Grrace ( talk) 17:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Just one comment here- Przewalskij horse is not an ancestor of the domesticated horse (from Eurasian steppe) - it shares certain characteristics with the ancestor of the domestic horse - i.e., tarpan etc, but that is where it ends :) Furthermore Przewalskij was not domesticated and never used for transport - it was used for food and hide only (like onagers, wild asses etc) - its specific conformation disallows for any use related to ridding. As we have info (sources) from Eastern Europe during the early modern history the steppe and Forrest 'tarpan' horses were used both for food (including hunting for sport by nobles and kings) and domestication (thus transport), both stallions and mares, evidenced in Polish-Belorussian ' konik' horses. Latest genetic research disallows any involvement of Przewalskij horse in the domesticated horse ancestry at time of domestication and after DarioTW ( talk) 22:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
So what that it is a 2 year old issue when it is material to the topic? Przewalskij versus equus caballus has been resolved through genetic testing but but it is not widely known... Does not it really relate to mustang article? I beg to differ, for there is here an entire paragraph about how Przewalskij is the only wild horse in 'the history of mustang' - well, this Pzewalskij history does not apply at all - this suppose to be a history of mustang, right?. Additionally the good half of the info in this 'history section' has nothing to do with history of mustang and it is but legend and horse lore nonsense (mustang coming form Florida he, he - show me a historical research where you can find this info, Arabs being ancestors to mustangs??? Andalusian (meaning PRE I suppose) ???? How about the Sorraia horse, how about the Marismeno horse, Read the documents form early 16th century related to horse shipping to Caribbean Island from Spain - see what horses were shipped there, even Deb Bennett does not provide this kind of nonsense, besides last 8-6 years new research from Spain has completely changed the whole Andalusian horse history etc. Also got to read old Spanish sources 9ro eg Powell's books on Chichimeca wars and appearance of mestenco horses), Indian history (Idnians ate first horses that they laid their hands on, riding came later, first 'wild' tribes to ride were Chichimeca and laterApache/Navajo/Jumano in the North America) and horse usage (Ewers, Calin Taylor, Goeroge Bent etc), and 17th-19th century sources, as well as genetic testing related to horse in the Americas. The history presented here does not contain recent history, establishment of sanctuaries, involvement of Indian tribes and private entities in protecting mustang herds, failure of adoption program, campaigns on the part of Federal government to eradicate the herds from the BLM lands under Bush jr. and Obama administrations, attempts establish breeds based on Mustang eg Spanish Mustang, mismanagement of herds by BLM. It basically is not a history but a sad example of wikiepdia's editors lack of education the the area of history, law and animal science and application of those to creation of a wikipedia entry -:) eg do read this part from a scientific article from Oxford http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/97/2/107.full and do correct this article, please : 'Horses only returned to the American continent (the New World) in 1493, with the navigator Christopher Columbus and during the subsequent Spanish colonization period (Bort 2004; Primo 2004). Those stallions and mares were bought in Seville's province, mainly from the peasant stock bred in the islands and salt marshes of the Guadalquivir River (marsimeño) (Bort 2004). by the way - Spanish mustang breed - from the same article - The Spanish Mustang breed was formed with horses that originated from feral or Native American stock from all over North America. 199.117.182.5 DarioTW ( talk) 00:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, then I think Przewalskii versus mustang should have a different entry/sub - eg wild horse versus feral horse sub? well, I fail to mention the Comanches because they do not appear on the 'horse map' - meaning ridding and using horses for transport and war - until 1710s, almost a century after Apaches (1630s) and possibly Jumanos been riding and trading horses across the Great Plains. Besides Comanches for the most of their history got most of their horses from ridding of the estancians and haciendas of the Spanish (in Tejas, Nueva Vizcaya, New Spain) and Mexican herds (one of the leading causes of the Mexican-US War according to this book by DeLAy http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300119329), but they were fond of eating mustangs and were active in capturing and then trading fresh mustangs to 'ciboleros,' 'comancheros' and Indian tribes. BUT - they did not trade trained mustangs to anyone, as these trained animals became part of the family (eg Pekka Hämäläinen, The Comanche Empire, p190) However Ute and Shoshones played a great part in Spanish horse dissemination , including to Comanches, during the late 17th and 18th centuries Well as per 17-19th century sources they were the observers who wrote down their observations, and in historical research they are given more credence than anything else (nature of this science, I suppose). BLM, Federal Government and laws passed since 1971 Act need to be included as they had terrible effect on the wild horse herds in the West. Lack of these developments simply does not deliver a history of mustangs but lore and legend - perhaps Mustang entry should have another sub on the legend and lore - beautiful and rich of folklore in itself.You are right about the need for sourcing the material presented, I am always behind that... DarioTW ( talk) 01:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
well, aren't we engaged in a ad personam /ad hominem fallacy here? you seem not to understand what definition of 'history' is, strange indeed? - neither Przewalskii paragraph nor lack of post 1971 material in the history section makes this section/sub complete and scientific, absence of historical facts in favor of nonsense about Indians and farmers etc, lack of 19th century folklore, lack of Indian folklore, disregard/disrespect for one of the most important sources for 1830-40s i.e. Josiah Gregg, and disregard for 17th-19th century sources in general?? Lack of Spanish sources?? Disregard for scientific material via genetic testing? It is all in your present sub section know as history of free reaming wild horse aka mustang - :) And do enlighten me where exactly I misinterpret the source material? I know wikipedia is run by good hearted people but noblesse oblige, wouldn't you say. I my not so humble opinion this sub needs sources, editing and more sources, to achieve a more balanced, grounded in history presentation, and not this collage of patchwork opinions and hearsay. It is my understanding that there is no limit on wikipedia entires, is there? Besides, it is the juicy facts or your 'mediaword' straight from TV language known as 'factoid' that make reading these pages interesting, isn't it? So stop reverting the edits and rather make them footnoted or ask for proof(I am for one still green in area of adding footnotes in wikipedia,)So let's stop bickering and get to work on fixing this 'donkey' - what do you say? DarioTW ( talk) 16:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I am still waiting for you to answer the question, How many generations does it take to "domesticate" a wild horse? Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 17:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Because wild Mustangs have been captured and trained has not changed them genetically. They are no different than elephants trained to be ridden and balance on a balls in the circus. If the wild Amerian Mustangs were released back to the wild, they would return to "wild." The ease of training and taming does not change the animals genetics that link them to their fossils, it does not diminish a native species origin. Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 04:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm starting this in a new section to not disturb the discussion above. A few days ago, I had proposed wording for a new paragraph to be inserted, dealing with the issue of the people who wish mustangs to be defined as wild. Here was the original proposed wording:
There is a movement, under the leadership of equine scientists Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, to change the status of the mustang from "feral" to "wild", at least as it is seen by the US government. The definition of feral allows the mustangs to also be defined as an intrusive, exotic species, and called a threat to true native wildlife. However, Kirkpatrick and Fazio point out that since there were native horses on the North American continent at one point (albiet dying out at the end of the Pleistocene era), horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore they should be defined as "wild". Kirkpatrick and Fazio claim that since the two main elements for defining a native species are whether or not it coevolved with its habitat and where it originated, the mustang can be considered to have done both, if you look at the ancient horse that went subsequently went extinct. Despite these arguments, the mustang is still regarded as feral and non-native by most government agencies,(Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
Montanabw asked me to shorten it up a bit, and I agree with her, so here is a secondary proposition:
Two equine scientists, to change the definition of the mustang from "feral" to "wild". Proponents point out that since there were wild horses on the North American continent before they went extinct, horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native, and therefore wild, animals. Two main elements for defining a native species are whether it coevolved with its habitat and where it originated. The North American mustang fulfills both these requirements, if you look at the ancient extinct horse. Despite these arguments, the mustang is still regarded as feral and non-native by most government agencies,(Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and as an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
Kim, Ggrace, and Montanabw, what do you think of these two wordings? Dana boomer ( talk) 18:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it still gives undue weight to a fringe theory and isn't yet neutral in tone. Let me take a crack at shortening it a bit more and trying to state everything neutrallly (I hope) Montanabw (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) :
Two researchers have advanced an argument that Mustangs should be legally classified as "wild" rather than "feral." They suggest that, due to the presence of Equus ferus ferus on the North American continent at the end of the Pleistocene era, horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore defined as "wild" (Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and not viewed as an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
How does the above work? I did another bit of rewording to mine. Montanabw (talk) 22:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is my slightly modified version:
Two researchers have advanced an argument that Mustangs should be legally classified as "wild" rather than "feral." They argue that, due to the presence of Equus ferus ferus on the North American continent till the end of the Pleistocene era, horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore defined as "wild" (Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and not viewed as an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
-- Kim van der Linde at venus 22:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
There have been several calls for ubiased opinion, so as someone who happened on the page by pure accident, and who knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about horses (applied linguistics is my branch of research), having read the article and all the monotonous talk pages, here's my two cents:
mustang |ˈməsˌta ng |
noun
an American feral horse, typically small and lightly built.
(Oxford American Dictionary
___
mustang
Pronunciation: ‚m„s-ƒtaŠ
Function: noun
Etymology: Mexican Spanish mestengo, from Spanish, stray, from mesteño strayed, from mesta annual roundup of cattle that disposed of strays, from Medieval Latin (animalia) mixta mixed animals
Date: 1808
(Webster's Dictionary)
1 : the small hardy naturalized horse of the western plains directly descended from horses brought in by the Spaniards; also : bronco
___
feral
Pronunciation: ‚fir-„l, ‚fer-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Medieval Latin feralis, from Latin fera wild animal, from feminine of ferus wild— more at fierce
Date: 1604
1 : of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast
2 a : not domesticated or cultivated : wild b : having escaped from domestication and become wild
Webster's Dictionary)
__
Oxford and Websters are superior sources to WP, so it would be a waste of time to continue on a new tack and discuss here whether those revered lexical resources are right or wrong. The article as it currently stands is well written, has provided me (as a visitor) with sufficient encyclopedic info about Mustangs, and it has my vote. As a Wikpedia copyeditor, for the structure, the prose, and the placement of 'mustang' and 'feral' in the rest of the text, it has my vote. The correctly referenced and verifiable article by Drs Kirkpatrick and Fazio does what it is supposed to: provide the WP reader with further information. Their article posits arguments on the genetics of ferality vs. wildness & domesticity, and still leaves the conclusion open to further research and debate (around the dictionary definitions) above, and are not the concern of Wikipedia talk pages. What do not get my votes are pedantic, prescriptive POV, and the use of the Wickpedia as an Internet forum for violent general discussion; the mission of an encyclopedia is to report, not to contend, and debate on the content of third party research is therefore generally disallowed. The Wiki editors have nicely phrased their reporting of the LiveScience.com article, thus on the actual semantics, Grrace will just have to hold her horses...-- Kudpung ( talk) 22:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
why is there no mention of the ford mustang????? wtf?? at least a quick and short snip about the horses's legacy or use in popular culture today —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiffyguy ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Should the photo of a feral/wild (I'm not trying to get involved in that debate just yet) be so...formal? The photo for the Brumby shows the animal in the wild. Shouldn't the photo of the Mustang do the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.78.82 ( talk) 16:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
early history - -horse returned to the Americas in 1509 with Alonso de Ojeda whose entrada landed in the delta of Rio Atrato with 40 head horse herd (some were eaten for lack of food in the jungle or other sunk in the ship disaster off Darien), and the first breeding and horse herding on the continent took place in Panama in 1514 - shipment and horse increase certified by padre Gomara and Vasco Nuñez de Balboa. Several months before Corts landing in Vera Cruz, another Spanish entrada took place in Nicaragua and Honduras starting in September 1519 (source eg Bennet, Conquistadors, p 181-183, 184-85) Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes (in 1570s) writing history of the Conquest and Spanish colonies stated that during la conquista horses were bred in the islands of Cuba, Jamaica and Hispaiola, where they multiplied rapidly. Conquistadors demanded these Caribean bred horses because they could withstand the climate and campaign hardships better than European bred horses imported from Spain and Portugal. Thus de Soto took horses from Cuba to decend onto Florida and American Southeast, Garay from Jamaica, Heredia from Hispaniola, Cortes from Hispaniola and Cuba etc . First 'wild' Indians to ride horses were members of Chichimeca central and Northern Mexico tribes who had fought the Spanish and their Indian allies for almost 50 years in the 16th century, causing lots of livestock to go stray and become wild. Also that war led to 'reducidos' Mexican Indians being able to ride horses without punishment of law, first native vaqueros or cowboys appear about that time in Mexico. First mustangs appeared in Mexico in 1570s in Central Mexico, along with strayed cattle. DarioTW ( talk) 00:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC) More recent history incomplete or missing from this history - (under president Kennedy )Wild Horse Protection Act of 1959 Public Law 86-234- prohibited the use of a motor vehicle and airplane to carry on the mustanging' or capture of wild horses. Next protection of wild horses signed by President Nixon into law: Public Law 92-195 in 1971 known as Wild Free-Roaming Horse & Burro Act, was amended in 1976 (under president Ford) to allow helicopters for roundups etc - Sec. 9. In administering this Act, the Secretary may use or contract for the use of helicopters or, for the purpose of transporting captured animals, motor vehicles. Such use shall be undertaken only after a public hearing and under the direct supervision of the Secretary or of a duly authorized official or employee of the Department. The provisions of subsection (a) of the Act of September 8, 1959 (73 Stat. 470; 18 U.S.C. 47(a)) shall not be applicable to such use. Such use shall be in accordance with humane procedures prescribed by the Secretary. then came The Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 -(Public Law 95-514) passed under Bible preaching and peanut farmer president Jimmy Carter - stating that (4) continue the policy of protecting wild free-roaming horses
and burros from capture, branding, harassment, or death, while at the same time facilitating the removal and disposal of excess wild free-roaming horses and burros which pose a threat to themselves and their habitat and to other rangeland values;
Then a Great case came ; Kleppe v. New Mexico ruled in favor of wild horses by our then fine Supreme Court - can be read here http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5533598699102508441&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr On May 19, 2005 by a vote of 259 to 149, the US House of Representatives passes an amendment to the 2006 Interior Appropriations bill that prohibits taxpayer funds from being used to commercially sell or slaughter federally protected wild horses and burros for one fiscal year. In addition, a bill (H.R. 297) was introduced by Representative Nick Rahall (D-WV) to permanently restore the protections removed from the 1971 Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act. Both actions are taken to undo a rider to the 2004 Omnibus Appropriations bill by Senator Conrad Burns (R-MT) that removed a prohibition on the commercial exploitation of wild horses and burros (see 2006 and 2007 for further actions). On October 26, 2005 the US Congress passes an amendment to the 2006 Agriculture Appropriations bill to stop the use of taxpayer dollars to fund horse slaughterhouse inspections as required by law, effectively banning horse slaughter for one fiscal year. President George W. Bush jr signed this bill into law on November 11, 2005.On May 18, 2006 the US House of Representatives passes by unanimous consent an amendment to the 2007 Interior Appropriations bill that prohibits taxpayer funds from being used to sell or slaughter America’s wild horses. Legislation by Representative Rahall to permanently restore protections to the Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act dies when Congress adjourns without acting. On September 7, the US House of Representatives passes H.R. 503, the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, by a margin of 263 to 146. The US Senate fails to act on the measure before the end of the 110th US Congress. Rider to this 2005 appropriations bill, permitted the BLM to sell horses it has rounded up that are over 10 or haven't been adopted by the third try through its own program to be sold to the lowest bidder (slaughter). On April 25,2007 the US Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee holds a mark-up for S. 311, the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, voting 15 to 7 in favor of sending the bill to be considered before the full US Senate. On April 26, the US House of Representatives votes 277 to 137 in support of H.R. 249, legislation to permanently restore protections to the 1971 Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act (see 2005). On July 27, the US House of Representatives passes the 2007 FARM Bill (H.R. 6124), which includes language sponsored by Representatives Steve Israel (D-NY) and Michael Doyle (D-PA) to prevent Class B dealers and unlicensed individuals from selling dogs and cats to laboratories, as well as the sale of stray animals for this purpose. The US Senate version includes ambiguous language not supported by AWI; the final version of the FARM Bill passed by the US Congress removes the Pet Safety and Protection Act and inserts language calling for a “study” of the issue. On August 22, 2007 the US Congress again passes an amendment to the 2008 Agriculture Appropriations bill to stop the use of taxpayer dollars to fund horse slaughterhouse inspection, effectively banning horse slaughter for one fiscal year. http://www.awionline.org/ht/d/sp/i/11676/pid/11676 2008 and Barrack Hussein Obama's secretary of Interior Ken Salazar plans to sterilize wild horses and burros and remove them from the West http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/ken-salazar-plans-to-tran_n_314023.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/07/AR2009100703237.html , plans go further http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_0407911c-0f0a-5bbd-bece-8d105ff3ffe4.html Cloud foundation link to pdf responding to BLM and Salazar plan to obliterate wild horses http://www.thecloudfoundation.org/index.php/news-events-a-media/news/resources/556-report BLM works hard to crush Ms Madeleine Pickens efforts to save the removed wild horses http://www.madeleinepickens.com/news/care2-blm-crushes-pickens-plans-for-wild-horse-sanctuary/ Tribal sanctuaries http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Mar-23-Wed-2005/news/26135268.html most famous wild horse sanctuary http://www.gwtc.net/~iram/ DarioTW ( talk) 07:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Moved this discussion here from my talk page. Montanabw (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I writing in the hopes that we can find my common ground and some compromise. I have read and thoroughly studied the article on Mustangs. As you know, the word "feral" is contentious with some people being in favor of it use an others being adamantly opposed; instead preferring the term "wild." I propose that we remove the word from this disambiguation page as it is not relevant there. Does it help people find the article on mustang the horse rather than mustang the airplane? No. Also I propose, having one section within the article that deals straight forwardly with controversy and neutrally while removing the word feral from the article as an adjective. I have a several reliable peer-reviewed articles showing that "feral" is not an appropriate description for these horses. I also can show that the dictionary definitions list opposite meanings for the word including "wild, undomesticated" to "formerly domesticated". Therefore, the word itself is ambiguous and not a service to the reader who may completely unaccustomed to the word as used by in the content that I think you mean. I plan to begin editing the mustang article. And in good faith and in the hopes that we can achieve a compromise, I make the above propositions. Please respond and let me know what you think. Sincerely Catty Wampy ( talk) 14:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)Catty Wampus
Montanabw, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue and hope that we can find enough common ground so that I can help make the Mustang article even stronger. First, I do think that we should remove the word feral from the disambiguation page. All that page really needs to say is "Horse". Neither the word "feral" nor "wild" need to be included. There are certainly many Mustangs that are neither.
Second, yes, I absolutely understand how contentious the issue of feral vs. wild is. I do know what you mean by the standard definition of feral but let me point out a couple of things. I'm quoting from the Webster's Third New International Dictionary, please bear with me here. "Feral: 1 a : suggestive of a beast of prey; specif: characterized by inhuman ferocity. b: being, characteristic of, or suggesting an animal in a state of nature c: lacking in a human personality due to being reared in isolation from all or nearly all human personality due or nearly all human contacts: not socialized. 2 a : existing in a state of nature: not domesticated or cultivated b: having escaped from domestication and become wild.
Do you see that the definition that you use is that last and that the definition preceding it is the opposite of the definition you use?
I agree that some of the animals leaving free on the range are, in fact, feral: those horses who truly escaped or were dumped onto the ranges/mountains by their owners. About other the horses, however, could you call a horse that has descended over hundreds of years feral even by definition 2 b? My answer to this question is that only the horse who escaped is "feral" by def. 2b. Remember the horse evolved in North America over 160 million years. If you removed a zebra from the African savannah and then re-introduced its off-spring a hundred years later would the off-spring's off-spring be feral?
Do you see my point? If the animal didn't "escape from domestication" but instead was sired by stallions and mares that have lived free and undomesticated over hundreds of years they aren't feral by definition 2b.
However, the most important point to make is that the reader is not going to know what you mean by feral. Do an experiment and ask a collection of people what it means, you will get very different answers.
You reference J. Edward De Steiguer's book "Wild Horses of the West". In that book, he states "The antihorse faction, however, continued to call the free-roaming animals "feral", a term used more in derision than in the spirit of scientific correctness." Further, he rephrases environmental historian Patrica M. Fazio who states that the "designation "feral" is entirely a human construct and has little to do with biology or the horse".
My goal with this long message is not to convince you but to demonstrate a) the ambiguity of the term "feral" and b) to ask you to reconsider its appropriateness in the mustang article.
If you have scientific, peer reviewed articles showing that feral is an appropriate term for these horses than I would love to see them. From everything I've seen, I see people using the term but not taking the time to a) define it and then b) cite their definition.
Thank you for your time. I sincerely hope that we can reach a friendly compromise. Taking the word "wild" out of the article would not be correct. The horses that are living free and are roaming BLM land are truly wild.
Please note that in an effort to establish my good intentions with you, I have not edited the Mustang article yet.
Please respond at you earliest convenience. I would like to edit the mustang article immediately but want to reach a friendly solution with you first. Catty Wampy ( talk) 21:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)Catty Wampus
Good morning, Montanabw. I hope your weekend will be a good one. I have reviewed WP:V. Thanks for the tip. I understand the concept of perfect vs. adequate.
I suggest we take out the word adjective feral when not necessary and move it to a section that deals defines it and then makes the case for its use vs. the use of wild. Where feral is necessary for the point of the sentence then I suggest we direct the reader to the section that discusses the contention. Reasonable, intelligent people on both sides have good reasons for their choice of feral vs. wild.
I have to insist that we define the terms. Where does your definition of feral come from? We need a citation. I am happy to put it in but I can't find your definition. Also, have you read this article? http://www.awionline.org/ht/d/sp/i/18457/pid/18457 I also propose removing "Equus ferus caballus" from the article because the references used to support it are wrong. I followed the link and searched the article but did not find support to call the horses that we are writing about "Equus ferus caballus". (If you are the person who put that in and you have the reference please send it to me, I will be happy to fix it.) I have many articles supporting the scientific name "Equus caballus". Please read the article above, it is not long but represents, I believe, the latest DNA research on the topic. I agree about "not throwing the baby out with the bathwater." The article has many strengths. Obviously, much work has gone into it. I have privileges at the UC Berkeley library (my alma mater) so I will be doing more research after work next week. Thanks for your compromise on the disambiguation page. Let me know your thoughts about my suggestions above. Hope you have some fun this weekend. To me, Montana sounds like fun. But the Bay Area is pretty nice too. Catty Catty Wampy ( talk) 00:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Catty Wampus
do mustang horses depend each other for food, safety, and companionship? if so, how? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.83.113 ( talk) 02:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
If the mustang is an "invasive species", what do you call individual people with who are not Native American? Why not focus on the common black fly as a feral species and leave these beautiful species alone. I know this will never make it past the editors, but please not my passion! My husband and son are Native American. Blood lines do not matter. John Hopkins proved that. Mustangs are part of the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meredithfs ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
With the way that Mustangs are being taken out of the wild at a higher percent each year, why is that because the horses are living off of forage that cattle and other domesticated animals can not even begin to eat. Are the people in the govenrment being to harsh on the Mustangs that helped found our Country?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.170.5 ( talk • contribs) 09:35, September 7, 2004
Take a look to The natural horse by Jaime Jackson. After many years of study of US wild horse, he says that Mustang is not a breed, but a complex mixtures of almost any existing breeds. Wikipedia has no entry "wild horse" so far. Can anybody solve this problem? I'm Italian, and my English is not so good.
-- Alex brollo 18:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Looking over the article for historical tweaks, I noticed there appeared to be something of an anti-mustang bias to what is written. I am not a wild horse romanticist, but I also am not a cattle ranching apologist. So, I took a stab at trying to improve upon the neutrality of the article, or at least to sharpen the horns of the dilemma and outline where the controversies are and who the players are.
There was also just a need for a little more rearranging and editing. Hope the overall effect was an improvement. Montanabw 22:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I Love Mustangs.It is a beutifull Horse.With a big and very wild Heart! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.114.3 ( talk • contribs) 05:32, August 26, 2006
I notice a portion of this article comments on wild horses in America dying off from the great flood, and directs people to read about BIBLE/GENESIS/NOAH - is this article really the place to include something like that? -- Deathsushi 16:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
these animals are specil and have been in my family for years — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.51.158.105 ( talk • contribs) 18:16, December 14, 2006
An anonymous user wrote that mustangs live 4000 to 8000 years. I removed that sentence. Does anyone know how long feral mustangs really live? Rockoval 1:57 30 Dec, 2006 (UTC)
Disambiguation at the top of an article might be needed when someone types in a term, but goes to an article for a different subject. For example, if someone wanted to find out about "House" the TV show, they would type in house but read an article about buildings.
It is not reasonable to suppose that a person would type in "mustang (horse)" when they are thinking of an Automobile or any of the other meanings of "mustang". We can assume that everyone viewing this article intends to read about horses. So there is no purpose to disambiguation here. Also, neither "wild horse" nor "feral" redirect to this article, so there is no need to mention them either. -- Yath 00:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm mostly trying to figure out the disambiguation standard because it is unevenly applied. Put simply, I really don't see the "crime" in cross-linking an article back to the disambiguation page. For example, White horse doesn't get you the article about white colored horses, it gets you a kind-of disambiguation page that lists pubs in England and a "oh by the way, here's other stuff it could mean." I guess I am trying to figure out what is the huge problem that will crash Wikipedia with having a link to the Mustang disambiguation page and the wild horse articles at the top of this one. Seems that a cross-reference at the top is useful for more than just for disambiguation...for example, a person reading an article on horses clicks the piped link that says "Mustang," and comes to this article, but then while reading, thinks "what about the car or the ball team?" I really am not convinced that I was misusing the concept by putting two handy and commonly used cross-references at the top. I mean, it's true we have no cross-reference to English pubs on the White (horse) page, but that's not a real common problem. This is not worth an edit war, however. I suppose what we now have is a policy dispute. Montanabw 19:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
This article gives the etymology of the word Mustang as being derived from the Spanish "Mesteño". I am not aware of any such word in the Spanish language. If there any proof of this etymology? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 09:56, February 1, 2007 ( talk • contribs) 09:56, February 1, 2007
Tmangray 03:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It's unlikely, and indeed, my dictionary demonstrates that the word mustang does not come from the formal name of a particular association of pastoralists in Spain. Actually, La Mesta derived its name from the same common source as the word mustang. A mesteño (became mestengo in New Spain/Mexico) is a stray animal. It could refer to a domesticated animal on the loose, or a feral animal. A mesta was a meeting of pastoralists to sort out which animal belonged to whom. LA Mesta was not the only mesta. The word mesteño also often carried the sense of a mongrelized animal since animals on the loose typically did not care to follow the breeding rules of pastoralists. This sense has its roots in the Latin origin of both mustang and La Mesta: mixta (Medieval Latin) and mixtus, past participle of miscere "to mix". This sense has been preserved in the familiar usage "mustang", as one of their essential characteristics is their wildly mixed pedigree. Tmangray 03:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
You both will be able to settle this if you would simply cite to verifiable, authoritative sources. How about both of you actually providing a full citation to "my dictionary" in a proper footnote, and if there are multiple definitions (try the etymology of buckaroo, if you want to see a REAL mess), then present them both and discuss the controversy. I am tired of these kind of discussions when a few footnotes would solve many a problem. And maybe create a sandbox section here on the talk page to work out an acceptable definition instead of having an edit war in the main article. JMHO. Montanabw 00:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I have had some similar discussions over Buckaroo, Vaquero, Bakhara, and if the word is Latin, Arabic or even African in origin. Usually the best approach is to just "teach the controversy" as they say. Unless, of course, we have a medieval Spanish scholar amongst us. (but then, the African origin theory of Buckaroo did some from some scholarly type, meaning even they can be wrong) Ah words... Montanabw (talk) 21:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I already said above that there is no way mestengo can derive from mesteño. Check ANY book about the evolution of the sounds of the Spanish language (Ralph Penny's is probably easy to find in the US, or the old Menéndez Pidal), or a Spanish etymology dictionary, like the Corominas one mentioned in the Mesta article. Or even the brief etymology note in the OED, if you can't read Spanish (oh, and by the way, OED is the Oxford English Dictionary, not the uncredited, unreliable online etymology dictionary I have sometimes seen quoted in wikipedia). It is mesteño that derives from mestengo. The word "derived" is obviously wrongly used in Websters. Tmangray's statements about what words are supposed to mean are absurd, based in his idea that his interpretation of the English word belonging has to translate exactly into the meaning of the suffix, which shows how little he knows about philology (Or is madrileño supposed to mean belonging to Madrid?). If you actually care about finding out what is really known more than you care about winning petty arguments, you will check it yourselves in the books I mentioned. Me, I have better things to do. 72.89.121.75 13:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
what kind of horse is not a wild horse — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.76.180 ( talk • contribs) 16:18, May 2, 2007
Far too much sarcasm in both edit summaries and in previous edits. If you have something constructive to add, please add it and cite it to a verifiable source. If you have a problem with the article and have neither the time nor ability to fix it, then please bring it here and don't just trash the article with excessive tags. This is no longer cute. Montanabw 23:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Why has half the article simply been deleted? How rude. The article cited above is grossly outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Wanderlust ( talk • contribs) 10:13, May 17, 2007
Why not just say that the horses were brought to America by the Spanish, or by Spaniards, rather than talking about Conquistadors or invaders? It is common knowledge that the Spaniards conquered/invaded America (or parts of it. In fact, the areas were mustangs are most common were not necessarily under Spanish control). 72.89.115.41 16:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
OK campers: Here is the text in the article as it stands today (July 18). Start editing -- but add verifiable sources, I will wordsmith and attempt to mediate spats, and if we ever get to something EVERYONE can live with, it will be moved into the main article. Ready! Set! Go! Montanabw (talk) 22:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The English word "mustang" comes from the Mexican Spanish word mestengo, derived from Spanish mesteño, meaning "stray" or "feral animal". The Spanish word in turn may possibly originate from the Latin expression animalia mixta (mixed beasts), referring to beasts of uncertain ownership, which were distributed in shepherd councils, known as mestas in medieval Spain. [1] A mestengo was any animal distributed in those councils, and by extension any feral animal.
Please discuss improvements or changes to this article here other than minor edits. There are active editors and many POV issues surrounding the topic, making a need for consensus and collaboration part of this process. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
In the caption to the photo. What does that mean? "Good" is not a scientific qualifier, but a subjective evaluation. Is this innuendo? "Good bone." I would change it to something more descriptive, but I have little knowledge on the subject. 97.113.110.19 ( talk) 19:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what everyone's problem here is, but as far as I am concerned, it is established procedure to use an inline external link such as this Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act of 1971 when referring to what is in that link at that position in the text, as opposed to providing a general further information resource, which is the true function of an external link section. There is a distinct difference between the purpose of the two.
Using it as an inline reference is not appropriate because it is not a third party source for the claim being made, and is thus a self-reference, which makes using an explicit in line external link type reference even more appropriate. Secondly, to verify the claim you need to read the entire linked document, and be aware of all previous documents, to make the judgement that the protection being referred to has increased. This is not how verification of facts is achieved when presenting facts as in line citations, which more appropriately should link to sections/page numbers, or provide a hook search term.
The redlink argument is completely spurious, and now we have two redlinks for the act in the article. MickMacNee ( talk) 14:29, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I despratly need a picture of a mustang, if you can please find the link copy it and add a reply to this with the link in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.136.48 ( talk) 22:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to put in that Mustangs in Northern Arizona were called Broomies. Referance too Stella Hughes book of her husband Mac Hughes, "Hashknife Cowboy" July 19 2011 Ryttar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryttar ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Hey anyone who has posted this, to remind you,
Mustang is a nepali name of a place in Nepal a high altitude place. Please give information about Mustang as a place as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.184.63.104 ( talk) 16:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Mustangs are feral horses, because they have domesticated ancestors. They are not wild horses. Please discuss here if you have a different opinion. Dana boomer ( talk) 20:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Dana said: "As far as "mestengo" goes - I don't have the dictionary edition that is listed as the source for this statement, but I trust the editors who have been working on this article in the past, and I trust them not to misrepresent sources. It's a policy called assume good faith. My edition of Webster's, however, says that "mestango" means stray livestock. I don't see a huge problem in assuming that another version of Webster's says "stray or feral". Besides, you cannot use the argument that just because "mestango" meant "wild stock", it means that mustangs are wild - the source of a word does not transfer meaning from the old word to the new word, if that makes sense." Correct, If you are not able to find the source that specifically states "mestengo" means "feral", then you cannot keep stating it. If you have a "good faith policy" then why are you dismissing 30 years of scientific study and evidence provided by two PHD's in the field?) Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 16:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
The present day wild Mustangs are wild horses. They've never been in captivity. Feral horses are domestic horses that have escaped captivity, as I've already pointed out by WP's own definition of "feral." Once a wild animal that has been "domesticated" returns to the wild, IT RETURNS TO "WILD." The domesticated Spanish horses brought over to the North American continent have long been dead.
As I've also pointed out, just because chimpanzees are serving beers in a bar in Thailand, does that mean chimpanzees are no longer a wild animal?
Please correct your article as soon as possible, removing "feral" from your POV vocabulary. Thank you. uGrrlace ( talk) 16:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC) Grrace ( talk) 18:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I see that Wikipedia has a way to tag articles that use "weasel" words. Stating that Mestengo means "feral" is a weasel word, and as soon as I figure out how to tag it in your software, I will do so. This word has already been tagged by someone else that there are no reliable sources to back up the claim. Under WP rules, it should be removed, as it has been tagged since 2007. Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 17:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Your source for mestengo, still does not include the word "feral." Please remove the word "feral." Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 23:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Per your e-mail, talk pages are just as easy to edit as the articles themselves. You aren't able to edit any page (including talk pages) but your own while you are blocked. You just click on the edit button at the top (or to the side of a section) and add your comments to the bottom of the preceeding comments.
As for your source (Ann Forsten, 1992. Mitochondrial-DNA timetable and the evolution of Equus: Comparison of molecular and paleontological evidence. Ann. Zool. Fennici 28: 301-309.). As far as I can see, all this source says is that there were horses present at one time in North America. It does not say that horses survived through to the present day. Horses went extinct in North America many thousand years ago, and the free roaming horses now living in the west (the mustangs) are descendents of domesticated horses brought by Europeans. As the Mustang article currently says:
Primitive horses lived in North America in prehistoric times, but died out at the end of the last ice age around 10-12,000 years ago, possibly due to climate change or the impact of newly-arrived human hunters.[3] Horses returned to the Americas with the Conquistadors, beginning with Columbus, who imported horses from Spain to the West Indies on his second voyage in 1493.[4] Domesticated horses came to the mainland with the arrival of Cortés in 1519.[5]
And this is all sourced by reliable references. Although the source you have is a nice bit of research and writing, it does not say that horses did not become extinct. If there are some groups that claim that the mustangs should be regarded as wild because many thousands of years ago there were horses in N. America that subsequently went extinct, then please provide reliable references and we will probably be able to work something into the article. However, as you can see, not everyone agrees with your POV, so the wording and references needs to be worked out on talk pages (here for now, the Mustang page once your block expires), rather than the article itself. Dana boomer ( talk) 13:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a movement, under the leadership of equine scientists Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, to change the status of the mustang from "feral" to "wild", at least as it is seen by the US government. The definition of feral allows the mustangs to also be defined as an intrusive, exotic species, and called a threat to true native wildlife. However, Kirkpatrick and Fazio point out that since there were native horses on the North American continent at one point (albiet dying out at the end of the Pleistocene era), horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore they should be defined as "wild". Kirkpatrick and Fazio claim that since the two main elements for defining a native species are whether or not it coevolved with its habitat and where it originated, the mustang can be considered to have done both, if you look at the ancient horse that went subsequently went extinct. Despite these arguments, the mustang is still regarded as feral and non-native by most government agencies,(Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
Oh I get it, WP articles can't be made by "PETA" people, or people who "hug bunnies?" And, those POV's are not valid? And any citations provided by those kinds of writers are dismissed because they are coming in later? Is that WP's position? Even when DNA is revealed...it's "end of story?" Excuse me, who are you to claim "end of story?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grrace ( talk • contribs) 17:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Dana, you have still not addressed my questions above, regarding "mestengo" meaning "feral." That seemed to be your whole basis for calling wild American Mustangs "feral." Now, you've changed it to "government agencies" consider them "feral." So, the questions again are, what are you basing your "feral" argument on, and lets go from there. If the WP definition cannot be used, what definition are you relying on?
Additionally, Montanabw, has lumped me in with "There is a movement, under the leadership of equine scientists Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, to change the status of the mustang from "feral" to "wild", at least as it is seen by the US government." Wow...thanks for the tip...didn't know there was such a "movement."
Therefore, how many scientists do you need? How old does a species need to be, before WP considers them native?
Also, Dana, you state above "I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions," however, I was unaware that this article was based on opinions. Do you not consider facts? Or, should we no longer converse because according to Montanabw, it's "end of story?" Oh yeah, and now I'm reduced to "fringe." Now that's like continuing to argue the world is flat, or Pluto is still a planet, citation:( http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.nl.html?pid=23558)...look the NM legislature decides to delare it a planet anyway! If you are not open to new scientific discoveries, such as Equus originated in North America, citation:( http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm), then I'm not sure what else will bring y'all up to speed. Grrace ( talk) 18:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
What is YOUR source that proves that wild mustangs are "feral?" Thank you. 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 23:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Dana, yep, that's me. I read all your sources, did you? 1. American Museum of Natural History..."quick facts." We don't know who wrote the "quick facts" page or when, as it is not signed by the author, there are no citations for the one unscientific sentence referring to wild horses considered "feral" horses. Sounds like it needs to be updated.
2. The scientist you quote in the National Geographic article is Joel Berger, and he is refuted throughout the article, with DNA evidence to the contrary. The article is written by Kirkpatrick! I'm glad you consider National Geographic a reliable source. I've seen another article I'd like to cite, when I find it again I'll post it here.
3. Another Kirkpatrick article, but I don't see who you are quoting to prove the "feral" part. But since you consider LiveScience a credible source, I'll place in my Live Science citation here http://www.livescience.com/animals/060501_extinct_horses.html. This source includes an additional scientist Michael Hofreiter, Department of Evolution genetics. I have emailed author Bjorn Carey as to her bio, but not heard back yet. Your article (source) actually proves my point, instead of yours. I quote your article "they (wild horses) were 'designated' feral, and regarded as intrusive exotic animals..." But why did you stop reading there? It continues "...But as E. cabullus, they are not so alien after all." Your article also continues on to compare Przewalski as equal to E. cabullus, genetically speaking.
4. This source is written by the BLM, not exactly a neutral party. Of course they're going to put out disinformation, wild horses compete with their land leases to ranchers.
5. Encyclopedia of Historic and Endangered Livestock and Poultry Breeds. I cannot find when this was written, the only date I can find is 1975. Author Janet Vorwald Dohner is a librarian. Not a scientist. However she does state (in her Preface) that she welcomes updates as DNA evolves. Addtionally, she also states, I quote her here, "Altough technically the word "feral" describes the animals, to most Americans these are wild horses, acknowledged by Congress with the THE WILD FREE-ROAMING HORSE AND BURRO ACT OF 1971. Therefore, 1975 sounds about right, and of course, we will always be able to find old sources that need to be updated.
So let's back up a moment. You stated that you are not disputing that wild horses were on the North American continent at one time. But are you disputing that American Wild Mustangs are a native North American species? If so, I have another citation loaded with additional scientists...if you need me to type out all their names, I'm happy to do so. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences http://www.pnas.org/search?fulltext=wild+horse+extinction&submit=yes&go.x=11&go.y=13fulltext=wild+horse+extinction&submit=yes&go.x=11&go.y=13
Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 02:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Why have you removed my last paragraph and citations? Grrace ( talk) 03:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 03:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Montana, Mustangs are not feral. You are using the word "feral" incorrectly. Mustangs are a native species to North America, therefore, cannot be classified as "feral." Thank you. 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 16:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, you are incorrect. Mustangs descend from tamed horses as they are the genetic equivelent to the native North American species. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grrace ( talk • contribs) 17:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I have already provided you with the sources, but apparently you have dismissed them. Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 17:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I know, the wild versus feral discussion flares up every once and a while. Yes, the US government uses 'wild' for the feral horses called mustangs. That are policy documents, laws and they are free to use language as they like, but that does not make it proper usage. Equus ferus caballus is a subspecies of the Wild Horse, Equus ferus ferus. This wild species (Equus ferus ferus) roamed North America till about 10,000 years ago. They were never domesticated in North America on their own, and only reintroduced in the domesticated form after Columbus arrived. Some of those domesticated horses (Equus ferus caballus) became free-roaming again, resulting in herds of feral horses. Domestication has changed the wild horse (Equus ferus ferus) in many ways, to the point where scientists consider it a different subspecies (Equus ferus caballus). Domestication takes many generations, and is not lost within a single generation. The free roaming herds of domestic horses are feral horses. The ONLY free-roaming herds of true wild horse can be found in Mongolia, and belong to the third subspecies. Equus ferus prewalskii. Let me know if I need to explain aspects in more detail. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Again, this is an old argument and current DNA analysis shows the evidence. Please read my sources. Additionally, I was told that WP references could not be used, however, all of you keep linking back to the WP "wild horse" article. I'm finished. Thank you Grrace ( talk) 15:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
You wrote: "Domestication takes many generations, and is not lost within a single generation." A generation in human terms is 35 years. What, in your mind, is it for the wild horse? Where did they get the horses to "domesticate?" Anwser...from the wild. The definition of domestication is "Domesticated animals are not just tamer than their wild ancestors; they are different genetically." So, therefore, the DNA evidence shows that wild horses were more likely tamed, instead of "domesticated" because the modern Mustang is a genetic equivilent to the wild horse that originated in North American. Thank you. 71.116.70.134 ( talk) 17:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC) Grrace ( talk) 17:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Just one comment here- Przewalskij horse is not an ancestor of the domesticated horse (from Eurasian steppe) - it shares certain characteristics with the ancestor of the domestic horse - i.e., tarpan etc, but that is where it ends :) Furthermore Przewalskij was not domesticated and never used for transport - it was used for food and hide only (like onagers, wild asses etc) - its specific conformation disallows for any use related to ridding. As we have info (sources) from Eastern Europe during the early modern history the steppe and Forrest 'tarpan' horses were used both for food (including hunting for sport by nobles and kings) and domestication (thus transport), both stallions and mares, evidenced in Polish-Belorussian ' konik' horses. Latest genetic research disallows any involvement of Przewalskij horse in the domesticated horse ancestry at time of domestication and after DarioTW ( talk) 22:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
So what that it is a 2 year old issue when it is material to the topic? Przewalskij versus equus caballus has been resolved through genetic testing but but it is not widely known... Does not it really relate to mustang article? I beg to differ, for there is here an entire paragraph about how Przewalskij is the only wild horse in 'the history of mustang' - well, this Pzewalskij history does not apply at all - this suppose to be a history of mustang, right?. Additionally the good half of the info in this 'history section' has nothing to do with history of mustang and it is but legend and horse lore nonsense (mustang coming form Florida he, he - show me a historical research where you can find this info, Arabs being ancestors to mustangs??? Andalusian (meaning PRE I suppose) ???? How about the Sorraia horse, how about the Marismeno horse, Read the documents form early 16th century related to horse shipping to Caribbean Island from Spain - see what horses were shipped there, even Deb Bennett does not provide this kind of nonsense, besides last 8-6 years new research from Spain has completely changed the whole Andalusian horse history etc. Also got to read old Spanish sources 9ro eg Powell's books on Chichimeca wars and appearance of mestenco horses), Indian history (Idnians ate first horses that they laid their hands on, riding came later, first 'wild' tribes to ride were Chichimeca and laterApache/Navajo/Jumano in the North America) and horse usage (Ewers, Calin Taylor, Goeroge Bent etc), and 17th-19th century sources, as well as genetic testing related to horse in the Americas. The history presented here does not contain recent history, establishment of sanctuaries, involvement of Indian tribes and private entities in protecting mustang herds, failure of adoption program, campaigns on the part of Federal government to eradicate the herds from the BLM lands under Bush jr. and Obama administrations, attempts establish breeds based on Mustang eg Spanish Mustang, mismanagement of herds by BLM. It basically is not a history but a sad example of wikiepdia's editors lack of education the the area of history, law and animal science and application of those to creation of a wikipedia entry -:) eg do read this part from a scientific article from Oxford http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/97/2/107.full and do correct this article, please : 'Horses only returned to the American continent (the New World) in 1493, with the navigator Christopher Columbus and during the subsequent Spanish colonization period (Bort 2004; Primo 2004). Those stallions and mares were bought in Seville's province, mainly from the peasant stock bred in the islands and salt marshes of the Guadalquivir River (marsimeño) (Bort 2004). by the way - Spanish mustang breed - from the same article - The Spanish Mustang breed was formed with horses that originated from feral or Native American stock from all over North America. 199.117.182.5 DarioTW ( talk) 00:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, then I think Przewalskii versus mustang should have a different entry/sub - eg wild horse versus feral horse sub? well, I fail to mention the Comanches because they do not appear on the 'horse map' - meaning ridding and using horses for transport and war - until 1710s, almost a century after Apaches (1630s) and possibly Jumanos been riding and trading horses across the Great Plains. Besides Comanches for the most of their history got most of their horses from ridding of the estancians and haciendas of the Spanish (in Tejas, Nueva Vizcaya, New Spain) and Mexican herds (one of the leading causes of the Mexican-US War according to this book by DeLAy http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300119329), but they were fond of eating mustangs and were active in capturing and then trading fresh mustangs to 'ciboleros,' 'comancheros' and Indian tribes. BUT - they did not trade trained mustangs to anyone, as these trained animals became part of the family (eg Pekka Hämäläinen, The Comanche Empire, p190) However Ute and Shoshones played a great part in Spanish horse dissemination , including to Comanches, during the late 17th and 18th centuries Well as per 17-19th century sources they were the observers who wrote down their observations, and in historical research they are given more credence than anything else (nature of this science, I suppose). BLM, Federal Government and laws passed since 1971 Act need to be included as they had terrible effect on the wild horse herds in the West. Lack of these developments simply does not deliver a history of mustangs but lore and legend - perhaps Mustang entry should have another sub on the legend and lore - beautiful and rich of folklore in itself.You are right about the need for sourcing the material presented, I am always behind that... DarioTW ( talk) 01:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
well, aren't we engaged in a ad personam /ad hominem fallacy here? you seem not to understand what definition of 'history' is, strange indeed? - neither Przewalskii paragraph nor lack of post 1971 material in the history section makes this section/sub complete and scientific, absence of historical facts in favor of nonsense about Indians and farmers etc, lack of 19th century folklore, lack of Indian folklore, disregard/disrespect for one of the most important sources for 1830-40s i.e. Josiah Gregg, and disregard for 17th-19th century sources in general?? Lack of Spanish sources?? Disregard for scientific material via genetic testing? It is all in your present sub section know as history of free reaming wild horse aka mustang - :) And do enlighten me where exactly I misinterpret the source material? I know wikipedia is run by good hearted people but noblesse oblige, wouldn't you say. I my not so humble opinion this sub needs sources, editing and more sources, to achieve a more balanced, grounded in history presentation, and not this collage of patchwork opinions and hearsay. It is my understanding that there is no limit on wikipedia entires, is there? Besides, it is the juicy facts or your 'mediaword' straight from TV language known as 'factoid' that make reading these pages interesting, isn't it? So stop reverting the edits and rather make them footnoted or ask for proof(I am for one still green in area of adding footnotes in wikipedia,)So let's stop bickering and get to work on fixing this 'donkey' - what do you say? DarioTW ( talk) 16:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I am still waiting for you to answer the question, How many generations does it take to "domesticate" a wild horse? Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 17:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Because wild Mustangs have been captured and trained has not changed them genetically. They are no different than elephants trained to be ridden and balance on a balls in the circus. If the wild Amerian Mustangs were released back to the wild, they would return to "wild." The ease of training and taming does not change the animals genetics that link them to their fossils, it does not diminish a native species origin. Thank you. Grrace ( talk) 04:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm starting this in a new section to not disturb the discussion above. A few days ago, I had proposed wording for a new paragraph to be inserted, dealing with the issue of the people who wish mustangs to be defined as wild. Here was the original proposed wording:
There is a movement, under the leadership of equine scientists Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, to change the status of the mustang from "feral" to "wild", at least as it is seen by the US government. The definition of feral allows the mustangs to also be defined as an intrusive, exotic species, and called a threat to true native wildlife. However, Kirkpatrick and Fazio point out that since there were native horses on the North American continent at one point (albiet dying out at the end of the Pleistocene era), horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore they should be defined as "wild". Kirkpatrick and Fazio claim that since the two main elements for defining a native species are whether or not it coevolved with its habitat and where it originated, the mustang can be considered to have done both, if you look at the ancient horse that went subsequently went extinct. Despite these arguments, the mustang is still regarded as feral and non-native by most government agencies,(Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
Montanabw asked me to shorten it up a bit, and I agree with her, so here is a secondary proposition:
Two equine scientists, to change the definition of the mustang from "feral" to "wild". Proponents point out that since there were wild horses on the North American continent before they went extinct, horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native, and therefore wild, animals. Two main elements for defining a native species are whether it coevolved with its habitat and where it originated. The North American mustang fulfills both these requirements, if you look at the ancient extinct horse. Despite these arguments, the mustang is still regarded as feral and non-native by most government agencies,(Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and as an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
Kim, Ggrace, and Montanabw, what do you think of these two wordings? Dana boomer ( talk) 18:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it still gives undue weight to a fringe theory and isn't yet neutral in tone. Let me take a crack at shortening it a bit more and trying to state everything neutrallly (I hope) Montanabw (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) :
Two researchers have advanced an argument that Mustangs should be legally classified as "wild" rather than "feral." They suggest that, due to the presence of Equus ferus ferus on the North American continent at the end of the Pleistocene era, horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore defined as "wild" (Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and not viewed as an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
How does the above work? I did another bit of rewording to mine. Montanabw (talk) 22:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is my slightly modified version:
Two researchers have advanced an argument that Mustangs should be legally classified as "wild" rather than "feral." They argue that, due to the presence of Equus ferus ferus on the North American continent till the end of the Pleistocene era, horses were once native animals and should still be considered as native animals, and therefore defined as "wild" (Reference: The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses) and not viewed as an exotic species that draws resources and attention away from true native species.(Reference: Wild Horses)
-- Kim van der Linde at venus 22:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
There have been several calls for ubiased opinion, so as someone who happened on the page by pure accident, and who knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about horses (applied linguistics is my branch of research), having read the article and all the monotonous talk pages, here's my two cents:
mustang |ˈməsˌta ng |
noun
an American feral horse, typically small and lightly built.
(Oxford American Dictionary
___
mustang
Pronunciation: ‚m„s-ƒtaŠ
Function: noun
Etymology: Mexican Spanish mestengo, from Spanish, stray, from mesteño strayed, from mesta annual roundup of cattle that disposed of strays, from Medieval Latin (animalia) mixta mixed animals
Date: 1808
(Webster's Dictionary)
1 : the small hardy naturalized horse of the western plains directly descended from horses brought in by the Spaniards; also : bronco
___
feral
Pronunciation: ‚fir-„l, ‚fer-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Medieval Latin feralis, from Latin fera wild animal, from feminine of ferus wild— more at fierce
Date: 1604
1 : of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast
2 a : not domesticated or cultivated : wild b : having escaped from domestication and become wild
Webster's Dictionary)
__
Oxford and Websters are superior sources to WP, so it would be a waste of time to continue on a new tack and discuss here whether those revered lexical resources are right or wrong. The article as it currently stands is well written, has provided me (as a visitor) with sufficient encyclopedic info about Mustangs, and it has my vote. As a Wikpedia copyeditor, for the structure, the prose, and the placement of 'mustang' and 'feral' in the rest of the text, it has my vote. The correctly referenced and verifiable article by Drs Kirkpatrick and Fazio does what it is supposed to: provide the WP reader with further information. Their article posits arguments on the genetics of ferality vs. wildness & domesticity, and still leaves the conclusion open to further research and debate (around the dictionary definitions) above, and are not the concern of Wikipedia talk pages. What do not get my votes are pedantic, prescriptive POV, and the use of the Wickpedia as an Internet forum for violent general discussion; the mission of an encyclopedia is to report, not to contend, and debate on the content of third party research is therefore generally disallowed. The Wiki editors have nicely phrased their reporting of the LiveScience.com article, thus on the actual semantics, Grrace will just have to hold her horses...-- Kudpung ( talk) 22:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
why is there no mention of the ford mustang????? wtf?? at least a quick and short snip about the horses's legacy or use in popular culture today —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiffyguy ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Should the photo of a feral/wild (I'm not trying to get involved in that debate just yet) be so...formal? The photo for the Brumby shows the animal in the wild. Shouldn't the photo of the Mustang do the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.78.82 ( talk) 16:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
early history - -horse returned to the Americas in 1509 with Alonso de Ojeda whose entrada landed in the delta of Rio Atrato with 40 head horse herd (some were eaten for lack of food in the jungle or other sunk in the ship disaster off Darien), and the first breeding and horse herding on the continent took place in Panama in 1514 - shipment and horse increase certified by padre Gomara and Vasco Nuñez de Balboa. Several months before Corts landing in Vera Cruz, another Spanish entrada took place in Nicaragua and Honduras starting in September 1519 (source eg Bennet, Conquistadors, p 181-183, 184-85) Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes (in 1570s) writing history of the Conquest and Spanish colonies stated that during la conquista horses were bred in the islands of Cuba, Jamaica and Hispaiola, where they multiplied rapidly. Conquistadors demanded these Caribean bred horses because they could withstand the climate and campaign hardships better than European bred horses imported from Spain and Portugal. Thus de Soto took horses from Cuba to decend onto Florida and American Southeast, Garay from Jamaica, Heredia from Hispaniola, Cortes from Hispaniola and Cuba etc . First 'wild' Indians to ride horses were members of Chichimeca central and Northern Mexico tribes who had fought the Spanish and their Indian allies for almost 50 years in the 16th century, causing lots of livestock to go stray and become wild. Also that war led to 'reducidos' Mexican Indians being able to ride horses without punishment of law, first native vaqueros or cowboys appear about that time in Mexico. First mustangs appeared in Mexico in 1570s in Central Mexico, along with strayed cattle. DarioTW ( talk) 00:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC) More recent history incomplete or missing from this history - (under president Kennedy )Wild Horse Protection Act of 1959 Public Law 86-234- prohibited the use of a motor vehicle and airplane to carry on the mustanging' or capture of wild horses. Next protection of wild horses signed by President Nixon into law: Public Law 92-195 in 1971 known as Wild Free-Roaming Horse & Burro Act, was amended in 1976 (under president Ford) to allow helicopters for roundups etc - Sec. 9. In administering this Act, the Secretary may use or contract for the use of helicopters or, for the purpose of transporting captured animals, motor vehicles. Such use shall be undertaken only after a public hearing and under the direct supervision of the Secretary or of a duly authorized official or employee of the Department. The provisions of subsection (a) of the Act of September 8, 1959 (73 Stat. 470; 18 U.S.C. 47(a)) shall not be applicable to such use. Such use shall be in accordance with humane procedures prescribed by the Secretary. then came The Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 -(Public Law 95-514) passed under Bible preaching and peanut farmer president Jimmy Carter - stating that (4) continue the policy of protecting wild free-roaming horses
and burros from capture, branding, harassment, or death, while at the same time facilitating the removal and disposal of excess wild free-roaming horses and burros which pose a threat to themselves and their habitat and to other rangeland values;
Then a Great case came ; Kleppe v. New Mexico ruled in favor of wild horses by our then fine Supreme Court - can be read here http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5533598699102508441&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr On May 19, 2005 by a vote of 259 to 149, the US House of Representatives passes an amendment to the 2006 Interior Appropriations bill that prohibits taxpayer funds from being used to commercially sell or slaughter federally protected wild horses and burros for one fiscal year. In addition, a bill (H.R. 297) was introduced by Representative Nick Rahall (D-WV) to permanently restore the protections removed from the 1971 Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act. Both actions are taken to undo a rider to the 2004 Omnibus Appropriations bill by Senator Conrad Burns (R-MT) that removed a prohibition on the commercial exploitation of wild horses and burros (see 2006 and 2007 for further actions). On October 26, 2005 the US Congress passes an amendment to the 2006 Agriculture Appropriations bill to stop the use of taxpayer dollars to fund horse slaughterhouse inspections as required by law, effectively banning horse slaughter for one fiscal year. President George W. Bush jr signed this bill into law on November 11, 2005.On May 18, 2006 the US House of Representatives passes by unanimous consent an amendment to the 2007 Interior Appropriations bill that prohibits taxpayer funds from being used to sell or slaughter America’s wild horses. Legislation by Representative Rahall to permanently restore protections to the Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act dies when Congress adjourns without acting. On September 7, the US House of Representatives passes H.R. 503, the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, by a margin of 263 to 146. The US Senate fails to act on the measure before the end of the 110th US Congress. Rider to this 2005 appropriations bill, permitted the BLM to sell horses it has rounded up that are over 10 or haven't been adopted by the third try through its own program to be sold to the lowest bidder (slaughter). On April 25,2007 the US Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee holds a mark-up for S. 311, the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, voting 15 to 7 in favor of sending the bill to be considered before the full US Senate. On April 26, the US House of Representatives votes 277 to 137 in support of H.R. 249, legislation to permanently restore protections to the 1971 Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act (see 2005). On July 27, the US House of Representatives passes the 2007 FARM Bill (H.R. 6124), which includes language sponsored by Representatives Steve Israel (D-NY) and Michael Doyle (D-PA) to prevent Class B dealers and unlicensed individuals from selling dogs and cats to laboratories, as well as the sale of stray animals for this purpose. The US Senate version includes ambiguous language not supported by AWI; the final version of the FARM Bill passed by the US Congress removes the Pet Safety and Protection Act and inserts language calling for a “study” of the issue. On August 22, 2007 the US Congress again passes an amendment to the 2008 Agriculture Appropriations bill to stop the use of taxpayer dollars to fund horse slaughterhouse inspection, effectively banning horse slaughter for one fiscal year. http://www.awionline.org/ht/d/sp/i/11676/pid/11676 2008 and Barrack Hussein Obama's secretary of Interior Ken Salazar plans to sterilize wild horses and burros and remove them from the West http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/ken-salazar-plans-to-tran_n_314023.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/07/AR2009100703237.html , plans go further http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_0407911c-0f0a-5bbd-bece-8d105ff3ffe4.html Cloud foundation link to pdf responding to BLM and Salazar plan to obliterate wild horses http://www.thecloudfoundation.org/index.php/news-events-a-media/news/resources/556-report BLM works hard to crush Ms Madeleine Pickens efforts to save the removed wild horses http://www.madeleinepickens.com/news/care2-blm-crushes-pickens-plans-for-wild-horse-sanctuary/ Tribal sanctuaries http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Mar-23-Wed-2005/news/26135268.html most famous wild horse sanctuary http://www.gwtc.net/~iram/ DarioTW ( talk) 07:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Moved this discussion here from my talk page. Montanabw (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I writing in the hopes that we can find my common ground and some compromise. I have read and thoroughly studied the article on Mustangs. As you know, the word "feral" is contentious with some people being in favor of it use an others being adamantly opposed; instead preferring the term "wild." I propose that we remove the word from this disambiguation page as it is not relevant there. Does it help people find the article on mustang the horse rather than mustang the airplane? No. Also I propose, having one section within the article that deals straight forwardly with controversy and neutrally while removing the word feral from the article as an adjective. I have a several reliable peer-reviewed articles showing that "feral" is not an appropriate description for these horses. I also can show that the dictionary definitions list opposite meanings for the word including "wild, undomesticated" to "formerly domesticated". Therefore, the word itself is ambiguous and not a service to the reader who may completely unaccustomed to the word as used by in the content that I think you mean. I plan to begin editing the mustang article. And in good faith and in the hopes that we can achieve a compromise, I make the above propositions. Please respond and let me know what you think. Sincerely Catty Wampy ( talk) 14:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)Catty Wampus
Montanabw, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue and hope that we can find enough common ground so that I can help make the Mustang article even stronger. First, I do think that we should remove the word feral from the disambiguation page. All that page really needs to say is "Horse". Neither the word "feral" nor "wild" need to be included. There are certainly many Mustangs that are neither.
Second, yes, I absolutely understand how contentious the issue of feral vs. wild is. I do know what you mean by the standard definition of feral but let me point out a couple of things. I'm quoting from the Webster's Third New International Dictionary, please bear with me here. "Feral: 1 a : suggestive of a beast of prey; specif: characterized by inhuman ferocity. b: being, characteristic of, or suggesting an animal in a state of nature c: lacking in a human personality due to being reared in isolation from all or nearly all human personality due or nearly all human contacts: not socialized. 2 a : existing in a state of nature: not domesticated or cultivated b: having escaped from domestication and become wild.
Do you see that the definition that you use is that last and that the definition preceding it is the opposite of the definition you use?
I agree that some of the animals leaving free on the range are, in fact, feral: those horses who truly escaped or were dumped onto the ranges/mountains by their owners. About other the horses, however, could you call a horse that has descended over hundreds of years feral even by definition 2 b? My answer to this question is that only the horse who escaped is "feral" by def. 2b. Remember the horse evolved in North America over 160 million years. If you removed a zebra from the African savannah and then re-introduced its off-spring a hundred years later would the off-spring's off-spring be feral?
Do you see my point? If the animal didn't "escape from domestication" but instead was sired by stallions and mares that have lived free and undomesticated over hundreds of years they aren't feral by definition 2b.
However, the most important point to make is that the reader is not going to know what you mean by feral. Do an experiment and ask a collection of people what it means, you will get very different answers.
You reference J. Edward De Steiguer's book "Wild Horses of the West". In that book, he states "The antihorse faction, however, continued to call the free-roaming animals "feral", a term used more in derision than in the spirit of scientific correctness." Further, he rephrases environmental historian Patrica M. Fazio who states that the "designation "feral" is entirely a human construct and has little to do with biology or the horse".
My goal with this long message is not to convince you but to demonstrate a) the ambiguity of the term "feral" and b) to ask you to reconsider its appropriateness in the mustang article.
If you have scientific, peer reviewed articles showing that feral is an appropriate term for these horses than I would love to see them. From everything I've seen, I see people using the term but not taking the time to a) define it and then b) cite their definition.
Thank you for your time. I sincerely hope that we can reach a friendly compromise. Taking the word "wild" out of the article would not be correct. The horses that are living free and are roaming BLM land are truly wild.
Please note that in an effort to establish my good intentions with you, I have not edited the Mustang article yet.
Please respond at you earliest convenience. I would like to edit the mustang article immediately but want to reach a friendly solution with you first. Catty Wampy ( talk) 21:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)Catty Wampus
Good morning, Montanabw. I hope your weekend will be a good one. I have reviewed WP:V. Thanks for the tip. I understand the concept of perfect vs. adequate.
I suggest we take out the word adjective feral when not necessary and move it to a section that deals defines it and then makes the case for its use vs. the use of wild. Where feral is necessary for the point of the sentence then I suggest we direct the reader to the section that discusses the contention. Reasonable, intelligent people on both sides have good reasons for their choice of feral vs. wild.
I have to insist that we define the terms. Where does your definition of feral come from? We need a citation. I am happy to put it in but I can't find your definition. Also, have you read this article? http://www.awionline.org/ht/d/sp/i/18457/pid/18457 I also propose removing "Equus ferus caballus" from the article because the references used to support it are wrong. I followed the link and searched the article but did not find support to call the horses that we are writing about "Equus ferus caballus". (If you are the person who put that in and you have the reference please send it to me, I will be happy to fix it.) I have many articles supporting the scientific name "Equus caballus". Please read the article above, it is not long but represents, I believe, the latest DNA research on the topic. I agree about "not throwing the baby out with the bathwater." The article has many strengths. Obviously, much work has gone into it. I have privileges at the UC Berkeley library (my alma mater) so I will be doing more research after work next week. Thanks for your compromise on the disambiguation page. Let me know your thoughts about my suggestions above. Hope you have some fun this weekend. To me, Montana sounds like fun. But the Bay Area is pretty nice too. Catty Catty Wampy ( talk) 00:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Catty Wampus
do mustang horses depend each other for food, safety, and companionship? if so, how? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.83.113 ( talk) 02:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
If the mustang is an "invasive species", what do you call individual people with who are not Native American? Why not focus on the common black fly as a feral species and leave these beautiful species alone. I know this will never make it past the editors, but please not my passion! My husband and son are Native American. Blood lines do not matter. John Hopkins proved that. Mustangs are part of the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meredithfs ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)