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Just a fast note on Brittany/Pays de la Loire discussion. Modern France is split up into larger administrative Regions broken up into smaller administrative departments. Brittany and Pays de la Loire are two currently existing, neighboring regions of this kind. Nantes (and its département, Loire Atlantique) fall within the Pays de la Loire region and not within the current Brittany region. 83.195.92.222 22:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, the growing area for Muscadet is culturally, linguistically and historically closer to Poitou-Charentes than to Brittany. You might hear a winemaker say juilleT ("T" pronounced) just as you will always hear the terminal "T" pronounced in the name of the village of Vallet. This pronunciation comes from the Poitevin dialect of French (a latinate language not too different from the French of Paris). Certainly not Bréton, though coloured by the latinate language "Gallo" spoken in many parts of the Southern Armorican Penisula including some places not far from Nantes (Pontchateau, Redon, Vannes and...Rennes!). 83.195.92.222 22:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The previous delete of food pairings on the grounds that they are POV is a misguided decision. Food pairings are not purely subjective because it is possible to get them wrong. Muscadet is, for example, a bad choice for pasta in tomato sauce. Furthermore judicious food pairings are probably the most useful information to provide to someone looking for information about an unfamiliar wine. The suggestions provided are classics and marked as such to indicate that others are possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 21:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Wine and Food pairings are highly subjective with one person's "classic paring" being another person's faux pas. It basically comes to down to someone's personal opinion and point of view on what is a good pairing. That said, a well crafted, neutral section on food pairing should be included but it would require very solid referencing to reliable sources, rather than being the complete WP:OR] that the previous section was. Please review the applicable policies on WP:CITE on how to included reliable sources to aid in crafting a WP:NPOV section. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Sorry but you are wrong. To claim there are no good or bad choices because everything comes down to taste commits the
relativist fallacy. Muscadet is a fish and particularly shellfish wine because of the complementary iodic nuances found in both.
Zander or, for you,
Walleye are good pairings for historical and geographical reasons in addition to taste. The
Loire, quite simply, has a lot of Zander in it. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.1.61.80 (
talk)
10:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It would be furthermore interesting to read the article you cite about
Wine and Food pairings: 'The main concept behind pairings is that certain elements (such as texture and flavor) in both food and wine react differently to each other and finding the right combination of these elements will make the entire dining experience more enjoyable. However, taste and enjoyment are very subjective and what may be a "textbook perfect" pairing for one taster could be less enjoyable to another.' (my emphasis). The article clearly indicates that there are some objective bases to the art of food/wine pairing even while prudently acknowledging some degree of subjectivity involved. That's quite far from stating that it's purely a subjective excercise. Mind you, you could of course rewrite that article if it contradicts your point of view. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.1.61.80 (
talk)
11:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
In the case of much maligned Muscadet it is difficult to find accurate material to cite. Case in point, serving temperature: recommending 8 degrees C is viable in some cases since it may numb the mouth and throat enough to hide the flaws in a watery, highly acidic, badly made but all too common sort of Muscadet. But there are passionate producers making fine Muscadets deserving to be drunk warm enough to be tasted. I know this from having lived in the region for five years and having met a lot of producers. What should I do? Cite available information I know to be wrong? Or simply write what I know comforted in the knowledge it may prove helpful to the wine drinking reader? In this case I'll apply any day the WP:IAR rule, 'If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.' What I've found problematic about the recent edits to this article is that they have all been deletes, and moreover deletes of the very material most wine consumers are looking for when they discover a new wine: 'What do I drink it with?', 'What temperature do I serve it at?', 'How long can I keep it?' The experience I've had here parallels the one I've had with organised religion: people acting dogmatically rarely have the interest of the masses in mind. 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 19:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Update After further reviewing I noticed that the entire article was in pretty sorry shape. It made little sense to get worked up over one section when the whole article was in need of attention. So I have rewritten and expanded the article to the point now where everything currently in it is cited to a reliable source that can be verified. I kindly ask that our anon visitor respect the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia and not add unsourced, unverifiable, personal opinion and WP:OR to the article. As always, any improvements to the article are welcome but they must be constructive and sourced. Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that it's more constructive to add rather than delete information and thank you for taking that tack. I would make a few changes to some sourced information added to the article. Because someone said it in a book does not mean it's true or useful information:
Please consult a map showing topographical relief and you'll see that Nantes as a shield is a pretty ridiculous proposition. The appellation covers a vast area and I can't figure how flat little Nantes is going to protect it. On the other hand the hills around the village of Haute Goulaine SE of Nantes may indeed attenuate the coastal influence a bit for some areas. They are the highest point in the appellation. Is that what you're interpreting as a 'Nantes as shield' effect? Whatever the case, westerly winds aren't much of a problem for the low trained vines. It's the cold, clear, still and frosty mornings after budbreak.
But finally I'm not sure if this is the right place for me. What interests me about the subject are trends that are clearly evident if you have first hand familiarity with the region but which (going by your contributions) are missing from most published English-speaking sources:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 18:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Claims that the city of Nantes somehow acts as a windshield for the larger Muscadet appellation or that there is a movement to require oak barrels for sur lie Muscadet are so ridiculously off base that it is impossible to find a counter citation to refute them. So, then, are we stuck with an article that says something embarrassing because of this impossibility of refuting the occasional ludicrous claim backed up by citation that pops up?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 22:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
In areas where a variety is known under a synonym, it is appropriate to list the regional synonym in the article. Case in point Ugni blanc and Trebbiano. In French wine articles, we would never wiki link Trebbiano and vice versa. Yes it is the name of the wine but just as "Muscadet" is used as a synonym for Melon de Bourgogne, so too is Gros Plant used as a synonym for Folle Blanche. There is abundant reliable sourcing for the use of Gros plant as a synonym for Folle Blanche-Oz Clarke Encyclopedia of Grapes pg 90, Sotheby pg 201, Jancis Robinson Vines, Grapes and Wines pg 29, The Wine Doctor which uses Gros Plant almost exclusively as a synonym, which is similar to other online sources using it as a syn, etc. Agne Cheese/ Wine 20:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I just spotted a couple NY times features on Muscadet that do a good job talking about current trends:
I think it would be great to work some of this material into the article because these sources are focused on current trends, a subject that's currently missing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.1.61.80 ( talk) 21:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Muscadet/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rating this article B because it aims to be reasonably comprehensive about the subject covering the major subjects you could think of about a wine (Basics characteristics, History, Geography, Varietals, Taste, Climate, Food paring and the like). Contains a couple of reputable citations though citation format could be fixed (ref numbers.). Tries to keep to an objective tone. 83.195.92.222 22:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Traditionally French wines are named after the region while US wines are names after the grape. Muscadet is neither. The article would be improved if it includes a history and reason for this name. 81.255.21.129 13:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Actually it is more of a start class. No references and just 1 or 2 line sections. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 00:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Just a fast note on Brittany/Pays de la Loire discussion. Modern France is split up into larger administrative Regions broken up into smaller administrative departments. Brittany and Pays de la Loire are two currently existing, neighboring regions of this kind. Nantes (and its département, Loire Atlantique) fall within the Pays de la Loire region and not within the current Brittany region. 83.195.92.222 22:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, the growing area for Muscadet is culturally, linguistically and historically closer to Poitou-Charentes than to Brittany. You might hear a winemaker say juilleT ("T" pronounced) just as you will always hear the terminal "T" pronounced in the name of the village of Vallet. This pronunciation comes from the Poitevin dialect of French (a latinate language not too different from the French of Paris). Certainly not Bréton, though coloured by the latinate language "Gallo" spoken in many parts of the Southern Armorican Penisula including some places not far from Nantes (Pontchateau, Redon, Vannes and...Rennes!). 83.195.92.222 22:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The previous delete of food pairings on the grounds that they are POV is a misguided decision. Food pairings are not purely subjective because it is possible to get them wrong. Muscadet is, for example, a bad choice for pasta in tomato sauce. Furthermore judicious food pairings are probably the most useful information to provide to someone looking for information about an unfamiliar wine. The suggestions provided are classics and marked as such to indicate that others are possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 21:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Wine and Food pairings are highly subjective with one person's "classic paring" being another person's faux pas. It basically comes to down to someone's personal opinion and point of view on what is a good pairing. That said, a well crafted, neutral section on food pairing should be included but it would require very solid referencing to reliable sources, rather than being the complete WP:OR] that the previous section was. Please review the applicable policies on WP:CITE on how to included reliable sources to aid in crafting a WP:NPOV section. Agne Cheese/ Wine 02:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Sorry but you are wrong. To claim there are no good or bad choices because everything comes down to taste commits the
relativist fallacy. Muscadet is a fish and particularly shellfish wine because of the complementary iodic nuances found in both.
Zander or, for you,
Walleye are good pairings for historical and geographical reasons in addition to taste. The
Loire, quite simply, has a lot of Zander in it. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.1.61.80 (
talk)
10:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It would be furthermore interesting to read the article you cite about
Wine and Food pairings: 'The main concept behind pairings is that certain elements (such as texture and flavor) in both food and wine react differently to each other and finding the right combination of these elements will make the entire dining experience more enjoyable. However, taste and enjoyment are very subjective and what may be a "textbook perfect" pairing for one taster could be less enjoyable to another.' (my emphasis). The article clearly indicates that there are some objective bases to the art of food/wine pairing even while prudently acknowledging some degree of subjectivity involved. That's quite far from stating that it's purely a subjective excercise. Mind you, you could of course rewrite that article if it contradicts your point of view. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.1.61.80 (
talk)
11:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
In the case of much maligned Muscadet it is difficult to find accurate material to cite. Case in point, serving temperature: recommending 8 degrees C is viable in some cases since it may numb the mouth and throat enough to hide the flaws in a watery, highly acidic, badly made but all too common sort of Muscadet. But there are passionate producers making fine Muscadets deserving to be drunk warm enough to be tasted. I know this from having lived in the region for five years and having met a lot of producers. What should I do? Cite available information I know to be wrong? Or simply write what I know comforted in the knowledge it may prove helpful to the wine drinking reader? In this case I'll apply any day the WP:IAR rule, 'If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.' What I've found problematic about the recent edits to this article is that they have all been deletes, and moreover deletes of the very material most wine consumers are looking for when they discover a new wine: 'What do I drink it with?', 'What temperature do I serve it at?', 'How long can I keep it?' The experience I've had here parallels the one I've had with organised religion: people acting dogmatically rarely have the interest of the masses in mind. 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 19:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Update After further reviewing I noticed that the entire article was in pretty sorry shape. It made little sense to get worked up over one section when the whole article was in need of attention. So I have rewritten and expanded the article to the point now where everything currently in it is cited to a reliable source that can be verified. I kindly ask that our anon visitor respect the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia and not add unsourced, unverifiable, personal opinion and WP:OR to the article. As always, any improvements to the article are welcome but they must be constructive and sourced. Agne Cheese/ Wine 07:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that it's more constructive to add rather than delete information and thank you for taking that tack. I would make a few changes to some sourced information added to the article. Because someone said it in a book does not mean it's true or useful information:
Please consult a map showing topographical relief and you'll see that Nantes as a shield is a pretty ridiculous proposition. The appellation covers a vast area and I can't figure how flat little Nantes is going to protect it. On the other hand the hills around the village of Haute Goulaine SE of Nantes may indeed attenuate the coastal influence a bit for some areas. They are the highest point in the appellation. Is that what you're interpreting as a 'Nantes as shield' effect? Whatever the case, westerly winds aren't much of a problem for the low trained vines. It's the cold, clear, still and frosty mornings after budbreak.
But finally I'm not sure if this is the right place for me. What interests me about the subject are trends that are clearly evident if you have first hand familiarity with the region but which (going by your contributions) are missing from most published English-speaking sources:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 18:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Claims that the city of Nantes somehow acts as a windshield for the larger Muscadet appellation or that there is a movement to require oak barrels for sur lie Muscadet are so ridiculously off base that it is impossible to find a counter citation to refute them. So, then, are we stuck with an article that says something embarrassing because of this impossibility of refuting the occasional ludicrous claim backed up by citation that pops up?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.162.79 ( talk) 22:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
In areas where a variety is known under a synonym, it is appropriate to list the regional synonym in the article. Case in point Ugni blanc and Trebbiano. In French wine articles, we would never wiki link Trebbiano and vice versa. Yes it is the name of the wine but just as "Muscadet" is used as a synonym for Melon de Bourgogne, so too is Gros Plant used as a synonym for Folle Blanche. There is abundant reliable sourcing for the use of Gros plant as a synonym for Folle Blanche-Oz Clarke Encyclopedia of Grapes pg 90, Sotheby pg 201, Jancis Robinson Vines, Grapes and Wines pg 29, The Wine Doctor which uses Gros Plant almost exclusively as a synonym, which is similar to other online sources using it as a syn, etc. Agne Cheese/ Wine 20:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I just spotted a couple NY times features on Muscadet that do a good job talking about current trends:
I think it would be great to work some of this material into the article because these sources are focused on current trends, a subject that's currently missing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.1.61.80 ( talk) 21:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Muscadet/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rating this article B because it aims to be reasonably comprehensive about the subject covering the major subjects you could think of about a wine (Basics characteristics, History, Geography, Varietals, Taste, Climate, Food paring and the like). Contains a couple of reputable citations though citation format could be fixed (ref numbers.). Tries to keep to an objective tone. 83.195.92.222 22:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Traditionally French wines are named after the region while US wines are names after the grape. Muscadet is neither. The article would be improved if it includes a history and reason for this name. 81.255.21.129 13:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Actually it is more of a start class. No references and just 1 or 2 line sections. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 00:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)