This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Pilgrim Rose has been deleting references for the judgement from the Rudy Guede trial, apparently on the basis that it is not fair on the defendants in the Knox/Sollecito trial to include this information. This seems in no way logical to me, but, in any event, I'd point out that this is not an article about the Knox/Sillecito trial, it is about the murder of Meredith Kercher, which involves all three murderers, and so the judgment in the Guede case is logically our top RS (given that the full judgment in the Knox/Sillecito case has not yet been published).
The point at issue here is whether hypothetical arguments about physical evidence given by the defence in both trials (in my view, these are vague and specious arguments, which are only in the article because they have been promulgated by gutter journalists) should be included, whilst an official judgment of an actual court that has considered all the evidence should be excluded. I don't think so, but I would be grateful for some comment. -- FormerIP ( talk) 02:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Trying to look at this dispassionately, I think the basic problem comes from the structure of the article. The Forensic Investigation sub-section stands apart from the two trial sections and this seems logical since this investigation is an integral part of the Murder and investigation section and is common to the two trials. We have to rely on the written reasoning produced by Judge Micheli as to the specifics of the forensic investigation as a primary source because of the lack of (accepted?) English-language translations of submissions in the Sollecito/Knox trial (as well as the fact that some were produced in closed court and not part of the public record?). The forensic investigation section in the article is inadequate and unsatisfactory at the moment and should be reworked to provide only an account of that investigation and it's submitted conclusions. The paragraph about the supposed motive does not belong within the forensics section at all and should be moved to the police investigation sub-section. The rebuttal and supportive arguments about the investigation's submissions belong within a discussion of the trial and / or any appeal. So I suggest that the Forensic Investigation sub-section be rewritten to consist of a more acceptable description of the investigation and the discussion about any disputed evidence be incorporated into a Forensic Evidence sub-section of the Trial sections. rturus ( talk) 09:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, the Michelli judgement is the only primary source statement we have got and should have precedence over all the journalistic guesses. It absolutely should be included. -- Red King ( talk) 16:31, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
12-Dec-2009: Okay, I made a diagram (crude) based on a crime-scene map at a BBC page, URL: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46857000/jpg/_46857947_knox_house466x600.jpg .
The diagram shows the 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and kitchen, but I can't decide where, at what spot, the house entrance (into the kitchen) should be added to the diagram (compare to BBC quick image URL). Note that each bathroom also contains a bidet (as noted in the Judge's 1st trial-recap). The blue square is a corner-shower outside Kercher's room (right side of diagram). More later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 10:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
In the version in the Sunday Times, it looks as though the middle of the 3 small rooms on the extreme left has a wash basin in it. It looks as though that is an extra bit of bathroom. Bluewave ( talk) 12:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Does this diagram fall into the "original research" category? While it is evident that much work went into creating it, that in and of itself would appear to suggest "original research." Christaltips ( talk) 14:32, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
There is very little about them. How long had they lived there? When did they first become acquainted with Guede? Did they see or hear anything regarding the murder, or see the victim or any of the three convicted on that night? Did any of them appear in court? Lkjhgfdsa 0 ( talk) 22:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
In 2 years the section External Links was absent. That was recently reinserted without prior discussion. I thought that there was a totally POV section, citing doubious sources such 48 hours TV programme and the unreliable notoriously partisan FriendsofAmanda.org, with only the Google Map spot acceptable as an impartial link about the topic, and I decided to remove it and to open a discussion on the opportunity to have such a section.
I scouted the web in order to find reliable websites to refer to, but I dindt find anything. We could link to general articles about the case from the media like [1] or [2], but I'm not sure that these links would add value to the visitor experience.-- Grifomaniacs ( talk) 21:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Is there anyone to give a feedback about this section? I remember you that actually we are linking to:
That wouldnt be a good selection for a DMOZ editor, that is futile for Wikipedia ( WP:NOTLINK).-- Grifomaniacs ( talk) 02:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
I think that the majority of the links are actually not good choices in that they are either inaccurate news reports (the two CBS links have glaring inaccuracies and seem to me rather "coloured" and sensationalist), contain outdated speculations (Newsweek) and a sensationalist opinion piece. The "opinionater" NYTimes link should definitely be removed, it is extremely POV, almost xenophobic, manipulative and very misleading. The "scientists letter" in my opinion should not be here since it is presented without an explanation of it's genesis (was it commissioned by FoA for example?) and is there a missing page - the covering letter? The Google map is not particularly good (although I have not searched for a better one) and the link to the photos does give a wide selection of views of the locations. I think the news links should be removed since there is ample coverage of news items in the references section and perhaps restrict any links to definitive sources, for example the Judge Micheli report and the Judge Massei report when it is published. - We should remember the guidelines in Wikipedia:External_links rturus ( talk) 13:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
... so I have reworked the lead to make the purpose of the page clear. I also think that the bio infobox should be removed, for this reason. TerriersFan ( talk) 23:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification Lkjhgfdsa 0 rturus ( talk) 20:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Stop forcing people into silly boxes. Scientifically, the ethnicity is nothing that could be "OBJECTIVELY" assigned. A person which would be considered white in Dominican Republic would be considered black in the USA etc. In coninental Europe, you officially do not have any of these official ethnicity classifications and people leave and interbreed happily. Meredith Kercher was a British girl. Get used to the diversity and mixing of the world's population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.157.108 ( talk) 12:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Hey, this article is so typical of what has happened, for years in Wikipedia, when some people try to expand the text in an effort to illuminate details of the wider picture, while others desperately delete text that they don't like, despite violating all types of Wikipedia policies that require consensus before deletion. So have no fear, problems with this article (and its "dangerous" broader subarticle) will not "ruin Wikipedia for generations to come". Meanwhile, the truth will out, so we will, someday, have a fuller article that describes the charges of theft, obstruction of justice, and whatever else has been omitted in the current flurry of censorship. - Wikid77 ( talk) 00:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
The continual removal of text from the article has made the Italian forensic work appear to be less than world-standard. Of course, from Perugia, the office in Rome was called to come and investigate, and samples were sent to Rome for analysis. However, in the 17-Dec-2009 version of the article (of about 8,150 words), the word "Rome" appeared only once(!). Hence, consider the Rome forensics to be, essentially, only 1 ten-thousandth of the article. I was hoping (too optimistically) that as the text was expanded, people would read about all the general, major details of the crime scene, the forensic analysis, and such. (In the U.S., the top 5 TV shows have been mostly forensic, like NCIS (TV series), NCIS Los Angeles, CSI ~Las Vegas, etc.) I tried to add text about how the forensic analysts were puzzled that shoeprints in Kercher's room did not match Sollecito, so it was great when Guede said his shoes were "not Adidas" but rather "Nike" (in the Micheli Judgment), and so his shoe-pattern finally fit the mysterious shoeprints in the room: what an excellent statement to add to the article to show the careful, unbiased analysis by the Italian forensic team, combined with reporting from interrogators who held Guede. Unfortunately, that sourced-text was quickly removed from the article, perhaps because it sounded like evidence that Sollecito was "less guilty" because Guede was more guilty. Whatever. The total effect of removing details of the forensic analysis makes it seem hollow and juvenile, while actually Rome's details about each room in the house were amazingly world-class. Ironically, if the forensic details were being censored to make Knox & Sollecito seem "more guilty" (by omission of opposing detail), then the ultimate effect backfired. It was like a total " cosmic joke" (when results become ironically the complete opposite, as though the cosmos were laughing at the backward results.) Instead of making Knox/Sollecito seem more guilty, the lack of detailed evidence in the article made readers conclude that there was no actual evidence, and that the forensic team was "incompetent" or corrupt, and thus had to insult or vilify the American girl, because they seemed dysfunctionally "unable" to actually conduct a forensic investigation to really convict them. I don't think anyone, who censored details, had really imagined the resulting article would give that unfair-trial impression. Anyway, there's been too much fun in the article: the cosmos has laughed, long enough, at the continual censorship which made the text unable to deny that "Amanda was railroaded" by a bogus trial with no evidence. Hopefully, everyone realizes, now, that adding the general, major forensic details & analysis will make the forensic team seem competent and fair. Plus, adding the basics can reveal the other evidence used to contest the alibi claims of Knox/Sollecito. I regret that the article has seemed so biased to appear there was no specific evidence in the case, but sometimes, censors get the results that they, perhaps, deserve, rather than the opposite viewpoint that they tried to force upon readers. Let's try to put "Rome" in the text more than once after today, by god. - Wikid77 ( talk) 17:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I have begun merging text from the subarticle back to the main article, after the WP:AfD was closed as "Merge" (not Keep). Of course, the main article will become huge, but perhaps edit using a separate browser session (with fewer other tabs/windows open) for faster display. After a while, we can re-split the article (few judgments are permanent decisions in Wikipedia): perhaps we could split as "Trials of Guede, Knox and Sollecito" so that the section about Guede's trial would have more that 3 sentences about the guy whose bloody fingerprints were there, with DNA on her handbag zipper, before he was seen nightclubbing afterward. As I mentioned above, I have been noting the cosmic irony, for days, at how Guede's trial (with vast forensic evidence) became 3 small sentences in the text, while that section contained much more about the "other suspects". Anyway, feel free to create a gigantic, detailed article, and then we can split it again in a few weeks. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This article, which I have been reading a couple of times during the last year, is now partial and does not seem a good reflection of the "true case". Significantly, the section about Amanda Knox is the longest one, apart from the false accusation of Lumumba, it leans more towards a positive portrayal of her actions. This way, noone can understand why Knox and Sollecito have been convicted, indeed. Missing is for example the description of the fact that the house was cleaned with bleach the morning after the murder took place. Instead, the article just states: not a trace of Knox's DNA, hair or fibre in the bedroom." Further evidence against Knox and Sollecito is also not always referred to.
See: From Times Online November 19, 2007 Suspect ‘bought bleach to clean murder weapon after Meredith Kercher’s death’ Daily Telegraph, 21/03/09, Meredith Kercher murder: A new hole appears in Amanda Knox's alibi Amanda Knox was seen in a supermarket early on the morning British student Meredith Kercher was found murdered, despite claiming she was in bed, a court has heard. (...) Detectives believe bleach and cloths found under the sink at Mr Sollecito's house were used to clean up the murder weapon - a knife - and the murder scene itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Setern ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, the scene was an extremely brutal and violent one. Meredith had 43 bruises and knife wounds on her body. According to the prosecution, Knox assaulted her, pulled her hair, smashed her head against something, cut her with a knife, beat her. How is it possible to somehow clean up such a violent crime scene so perfectly that not one cell of Knox's DNA or hair or fibre was found at the scene while Guede's and Kercher's DNA and hair are left intact? How could Knox "see" where her DNA was? DNA is invisible. How could Knox have been able to see and find each and every cell of her DNA so completely? Also, how could a girl with long hair like Knox be in such a violent battle, with not a single strand of her hair being left in the room? To me the obvious explanation is that Knox was never in Meredith's bedroom at the time of the crime or otherwise. PilgrimRose ( talk) 05:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Now even her false allegation against Patrick Lumumba has been moved away and is relegated to a later section about Mignini. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.210.166 ( talk) 12:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I think we are failing to monitor also the subpage of this article. I flag for your consideration in particular this section, Trial_of_Knox_and_Sollecito#Various_controversies. That is a raw list of POV critics to the trial and to the Italian media. Please take a look at the discussion ongoing at Talk:Trial_of_Knox_and_Sollecito.-- Grifomaniacs ( talk) 22:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The full Micheli Judgment (recap of Guede trial), in Italian, is very detailed and likely to take hours to read completely, for use in verifying article footnotes. However, I have found (at the middle of the report), a paragraph about the kitchen knife (coltello da cucina) from Sollecito's house, and clasp from a limb of the bra (lembo di reggiseno). The paragraph (below) ends by stating the clasp of the bra (reggiseno) was recovered on 18-Dec-2007 (18 dicembre 2007 ), which was 46 days after the initial scene (2 novembre):
Note how the last-name abbreviations (such as "S." for Sollecito) have left "K." as for both Kercher and Knox, in the above paragraphs. - Wikid77 ( talk) 21:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
There is a problem with this article. It is malfunctioning. My computer shows only edits through Dec. 16 in the edit history of the main article. I have made edits to the main article, some of which show up in the text but DO NOT SHOW UP IN THE HISTORY. Some other of my edits do not show up anywhere. Clearly, there is a problem with the way the Wikipedia processor is handling this article. Is anyone else having similar problems on this or other articles? I can see none of the edits that Wikid supposedly made to this main article to incorporate text from the subarticle. Can someone please respond so that I will at least know that this post can be read by others???
The history is working fine for me. This doesn't appear to be a general problem. Averell ( talk) 08:51, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
It all looks OK to me, too. I've tried my 4-year-old laptop (Windows XP and both IE and Chrome) and my slightly older desktop (Ubuntu and Firefox). If there was a discrepancy between the page and the history, it would suggest that the wiki database was corrupted but, if it looks OK to most people, it sounds more like a browser problem for the individual concerned. Bluewave ( talk) 11:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Should photos be included of each of the defendants in their info boxes to make the story more interesting? Also, there are better photos of Meredith than the one included in her info box, but I don't know how to deal with any of the info box photos. The site True Justice for Meredith has many better photos of Meredith. That site can be found in the External Links, photos of Perugia link. PilgrimRose ( talk) 04:28, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, her appearance is important to the case. But this is not a fair-use rationale in itself: The fact can be easily explained in the text. Please have a look at the WP:Fair Use guidelines, especially this: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. (That's why I also think that the Kercher image doesn't really belong). Furthermore, living persons are separately listed on the "don't-use" category. And while I applaud any suggetion to let things cool down, the comment above is a bit besides the points: There are always editors who will come after all images with weak fair-use rationales. To these it doesn't matter what's on them. Averell ( talk) 08:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Friends of Amanda is mentioned in the article and we probably ought to say a bit more about them. I had a look at their site but couldn't find any info on who they are, what they are, how they are constituted, how they are funded, or anything. Of course, maybe I just didn't find the right bit of the site, but I expected that there would be some sort of list of names, a note of who was in charge, whether it is a charity and so on. Has anyone found a good source that would provide us with a few sentences about who and what they are? Bluewave ( talk) 13:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
There was a massive oversight in the source-reference diagrams for the house: the upstairs flat is actually divided into 2 parts, so I added the missing door (by the sofa) that separates the central living room/kitchen area (left-side) from the bedrooms of Knox & Kercher plus the smaller bath (right-side). Thus, Kercher's bedroom was separated by 3 doors from the outer rooms of the house. As you might know, when 2 doors are closed through a house, it is very difficult to hear conversations or stereo/CD music played at moderate volume, and 3-door separation muffles sounds even more. I spotted the missing hallway door, omitted from the BBC diagram, when comparing an inset photo showing the sofa near the wooden hallway door, toward those 2 back bedrooms. I don't think the BBC (or other maps) had intended to, somehow, bias/slant the house diagram. Instead, the missing door is most likely a mere oversight, because in many homes, the kitchen/living room often does not have a wooden door that blocks a hallway leading to the bedrooms. Anyway, consider the possibility that the hallway door was intentionally closed during some of the various events, and might alter what people could hear nearby. Remember: the upstairs flat is divided into 2 parts. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Also the diagram shows two taps but there was only one. Also in the corner of the Amanda/Meredith bathroom is a set of drawers. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508528/Chilling-pictures-Meredith-murder-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html — 82.26.210.166 ( talk) 13:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Wikid77 has helpfully been through and added content from Trial of Knox and Sollecito to this article. This appears to have been quite thorough - I can't see any outstanding material not already contained in this article that was not moved over. Are there any objections to deleting the other article now? -- FormerIP ( talk) 01:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Please note when merging: a lot of the material in Trial of Knox and Sollecito was originally taken from this page and re-arranged. We do not need to merge this material back, because it is just word-for-word duplication. Please do merge any worthwhile material that is not already included in the article. -- FormerIP ( talk) 16:12, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
What was stolen from Kercher, and when? Was it ever recovered? Who was convicted of theft? The infobox for those who were should have theft added to the convictions line. Lkjhgfdsa 0 ( talk) 18:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Pilgrim Rose has been deleting references for the judgement from the Rudy Guede trial, apparently on the basis that it is not fair on the defendants in the Knox/Sollecito trial to include this information. This seems in no way logical to me, but, in any event, I'd point out that this is not an article about the Knox/Sillecito trial, it is about the murder of Meredith Kercher, which involves all three murderers, and so the judgment in the Guede case is logically our top RS (given that the full judgment in the Knox/Sillecito case has not yet been published).
The point at issue here is whether hypothetical arguments about physical evidence given by the defence in both trials (in my view, these are vague and specious arguments, which are only in the article because they have been promulgated by gutter journalists) should be included, whilst an official judgment of an actual court that has considered all the evidence should be excluded. I don't think so, but I would be grateful for some comment. -- FormerIP ( talk) 02:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Trying to look at this dispassionately, I think the basic problem comes from the structure of the article. The Forensic Investigation sub-section stands apart from the two trial sections and this seems logical since this investigation is an integral part of the Murder and investigation section and is common to the two trials. We have to rely on the written reasoning produced by Judge Micheli as to the specifics of the forensic investigation as a primary source because of the lack of (accepted?) English-language translations of submissions in the Sollecito/Knox trial (as well as the fact that some were produced in closed court and not part of the public record?). The forensic investigation section in the article is inadequate and unsatisfactory at the moment and should be reworked to provide only an account of that investigation and it's submitted conclusions. The paragraph about the supposed motive does not belong within the forensics section at all and should be moved to the police investigation sub-section. The rebuttal and supportive arguments about the investigation's submissions belong within a discussion of the trial and / or any appeal. So I suggest that the Forensic Investigation sub-section be rewritten to consist of a more acceptable description of the investigation and the discussion about any disputed evidence be incorporated into a Forensic Evidence sub-section of the Trial sections. rturus ( talk) 09:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, the Michelli judgement is the only primary source statement we have got and should have precedence over all the journalistic guesses. It absolutely should be included. -- Red King ( talk) 16:31, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
12-Dec-2009: Okay, I made a diagram (crude) based on a crime-scene map at a BBC page, URL: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46857000/jpg/_46857947_knox_house466x600.jpg .
The diagram shows the 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and kitchen, but I can't decide where, at what spot, the house entrance (into the kitchen) should be added to the diagram (compare to BBC quick image URL). Note that each bathroom also contains a bidet (as noted in the Judge's 1st trial-recap). The blue square is a corner-shower outside Kercher's room (right side of diagram). More later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 10:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
In the version in the Sunday Times, it looks as though the middle of the 3 small rooms on the extreme left has a wash basin in it. It looks as though that is an extra bit of bathroom. Bluewave ( talk) 12:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Does this diagram fall into the "original research" category? While it is evident that much work went into creating it, that in and of itself would appear to suggest "original research." Christaltips ( talk) 14:32, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
There is very little about them. How long had they lived there? When did they first become acquainted with Guede? Did they see or hear anything regarding the murder, or see the victim or any of the three convicted on that night? Did any of them appear in court? Lkjhgfdsa 0 ( talk) 22:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
In 2 years the section External Links was absent. That was recently reinserted without prior discussion. I thought that there was a totally POV section, citing doubious sources such 48 hours TV programme and the unreliable notoriously partisan FriendsofAmanda.org, with only the Google Map spot acceptable as an impartial link about the topic, and I decided to remove it and to open a discussion on the opportunity to have such a section.
I scouted the web in order to find reliable websites to refer to, but I dindt find anything. We could link to general articles about the case from the media like [1] or [2], but I'm not sure that these links would add value to the visitor experience.-- Grifomaniacs ( talk) 21:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Is there anyone to give a feedback about this section? I remember you that actually we are linking to:
That wouldnt be a good selection for a DMOZ editor, that is futile for Wikipedia ( WP:NOTLINK).-- Grifomaniacs ( talk) 02:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
I think that the majority of the links are actually not good choices in that they are either inaccurate news reports (the two CBS links have glaring inaccuracies and seem to me rather "coloured" and sensationalist), contain outdated speculations (Newsweek) and a sensationalist opinion piece. The "opinionater" NYTimes link should definitely be removed, it is extremely POV, almost xenophobic, manipulative and very misleading. The "scientists letter" in my opinion should not be here since it is presented without an explanation of it's genesis (was it commissioned by FoA for example?) and is there a missing page - the covering letter? The Google map is not particularly good (although I have not searched for a better one) and the link to the photos does give a wide selection of views of the locations. I think the news links should be removed since there is ample coverage of news items in the references section and perhaps restrict any links to definitive sources, for example the Judge Micheli report and the Judge Massei report when it is published. - We should remember the guidelines in Wikipedia:External_links rturus ( talk) 13:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
... so I have reworked the lead to make the purpose of the page clear. I also think that the bio infobox should be removed, for this reason. TerriersFan ( talk) 23:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification Lkjhgfdsa 0 rturus ( talk) 20:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Stop forcing people into silly boxes. Scientifically, the ethnicity is nothing that could be "OBJECTIVELY" assigned. A person which would be considered white in Dominican Republic would be considered black in the USA etc. In coninental Europe, you officially do not have any of these official ethnicity classifications and people leave and interbreed happily. Meredith Kercher was a British girl. Get used to the diversity and mixing of the world's population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.157.108 ( talk) 12:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Hey, this article is so typical of what has happened, for years in Wikipedia, when some people try to expand the text in an effort to illuminate details of the wider picture, while others desperately delete text that they don't like, despite violating all types of Wikipedia policies that require consensus before deletion. So have no fear, problems with this article (and its "dangerous" broader subarticle) will not "ruin Wikipedia for generations to come". Meanwhile, the truth will out, so we will, someday, have a fuller article that describes the charges of theft, obstruction of justice, and whatever else has been omitted in the current flurry of censorship. - Wikid77 ( talk) 00:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
The continual removal of text from the article has made the Italian forensic work appear to be less than world-standard. Of course, from Perugia, the office in Rome was called to come and investigate, and samples were sent to Rome for analysis. However, in the 17-Dec-2009 version of the article (of about 8,150 words), the word "Rome" appeared only once(!). Hence, consider the Rome forensics to be, essentially, only 1 ten-thousandth of the article. I was hoping (too optimistically) that as the text was expanded, people would read about all the general, major details of the crime scene, the forensic analysis, and such. (In the U.S., the top 5 TV shows have been mostly forensic, like NCIS (TV series), NCIS Los Angeles, CSI ~Las Vegas, etc.) I tried to add text about how the forensic analysts were puzzled that shoeprints in Kercher's room did not match Sollecito, so it was great when Guede said his shoes were "not Adidas" but rather "Nike" (in the Micheli Judgment), and so his shoe-pattern finally fit the mysterious shoeprints in the room: what an excellent statement to add to the article to show the careful, unbiased analysis by the Italian forensic team, combined with reporting from interrogators who held Guede. Unfortunately, that sourced-text was quickly removed from the article, perhaps because it sounded like evidence that Sollecito was "less guilty" because Guede was more guilty. Whatever. The total effect of removing details of the forensic analysis makes it seem hollow and juvenile, while actually Rome's details about each room in the house were amazingly world-class. Ironically, if the forensic details were being censored to make Knox & Sollecito seem "more guilty" (by omission of opposing detail), then the ultimate effect backfired. It was like a total " cosmic joke" (when results become ironically the complete opposite, as though the cosmos were laughing at the backward results.) Instead of making Knox/Sollecito seem more guilty, the lack of detailed evidence in the article made readers conclude that there was no actual evidence, and that the forensic team was "incompetent" or corrupt, and thus had to insult or vilify the American girl, because they seemed dysfunctionally "unable" to actually conduct a forensic investigation to really convict them. I don't think anyone, who censored details, had really imagined the resulting article would give that unfair-trial impression. Anyway, there's been too much fun in the article: the cosmos has laughed, long enough, at the continual censorship which made the text unable to deny that "Amanda was railroaded" by a bogus trial with no evidence. Hopefully, everyone realizes, now, that adding the general, major forensic details & analysis will make the forensic team seem competent and fair. Plus, adding the basics can reveal the other evidence used to contest the alibi claims of Knox/Sollecito. I regret that the article has seemed so biased to appear there was no specific evidence in the case, but sometimes, censors get the results that they, perhaps, deserve, rather than the opposite viewpoint that they tried to force upon readers. Let's try to put "Rome" in the text more than once after today, by god. - Wikid77 ( talk) 17:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I have begun merging text from the subarticle back to the main article, after the WP:AfD was closed as "Merge" (not Keep). Of course, the main article will become huge, but perhaps edit using a separate browser session (with fewer other tabs/windows open) for faster display. After a while, we can re-split the article (few judgments are permanent decisions in Wikipedia): perhaps we could split as "Trials of Guede, Knox and Sollecito" so that the section about Guede's trial would have more that 3 sentences about the guy whose bloody fingerprints were there, with DNA on her handbag zipper, before he was seen nightclubbing afterward. As I mentioned above, I have been noting the cosmic irony, for days, at how Guede's trial (with vast forensic evidence) became 3 small sentences in the text, while that section contained much more about the "other suspects". Anyway, feel free to create a gigantic, detailed article, and then we can split it again in a few weeks. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This article, which I have been reading a couple of times during the last year, is now partial and does not seem a good reflection of the "true case". Significantly, the section about Amanda Knox is the longest one, apart from the false accusation of Lumumba, it leans more towards a positive portrayal of her actions. This way, noone can understand why Knox and Sollecito have been convicted, indeed. Missing is for example the description of the fact that the house was cleaned with bleach the morning after the murder took place. Instead, the article just states: not a trace of Knox's DNA, hair or fibre in the bedroom." Further evidence against Knox and Sollecito is also not always referred to.
See: From Times Online November 19, 2007 Suspect ‘bought bleach to clean murder weapon after Meredith Kercher’s death’ Daily Telegraph, 21/03/09, Meredith Kercher murder: A new hole appears in Amanda Knox's alibi Amanda Knox was seen in a supermarket early on the morning British student Meredith Kercher was found murdered, despite claiming she was in bed, a court has heard. (...) Detectives believe bleach and cloths found under the sink at Mr Sollecito's house were used to clean up the murder weapon - a knife - and the murder scene itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Setern ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, the scene was an extremely brutal and violent one. Meredith had 43 bruises and knife wounds on her body. According to the prosecution, Knox assaulted her, pulled her hair, smashed her head against something, cut her with a knife, beat her. How is it possible to somehow clean up such a violent crime scene so perfectly that not one cell of Knox's DNA or hair or fibre was found at the scene while Guede's and Kercher's DNA and hair are left intact? How could Knox "see" where her DNA was? DNA is invisible. How could Knox have been able to see and find each and every cell of her DNA so completely? Also, how could a girl with long hair like Knox be in such a violent battle, with not a single strand of her hair being left in the room? To me the obvious explanation is that Knox was never in Meredith's bedroom at the time of the crime or otherwise. PilgrimRose ( talk) 05:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Now even her false allegation against Patrick Lumumba has been moved away and is relegated to a later section about Mignini. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.210.166 ( talk) 12:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I think we are failing to monitor also the subpage of this article. I flag for your consideration in particular this section, Trial_of_Knox_and_Sollecito#Various_controversies. That is a raw list of POV critics to the trial and to the Italian media. Please take a look at the discussion ongoing at Talk:Trial_of_Knox_and_Sollecito.-- Grifomaniacs ( talk) 22:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The full Micheli Judgment (recap of Guede trial), in Italian, is very detailed and likely to take hours to read completely, for use in verifying article footnotes. However, I have found (at the middle of the report), a paragraph about the kitchen knife (coltello da cucina) from Sollecito's house, and clasp from a limb of the bra (lembo di reggiseno). The paragraph (below) ends by stating the clasp of the bra (reggiseno) was recovered on 18-Dec-2007 (18 dicembre 2007 ), which was 46 days after the initial scene (2 novembre):
Note how the last-name abbreviations (such as "S." for Sollecito) have left "K." as for both Kercher and Knox, in the above paragraphs. - Wikid77 ( talk) 21:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
There is a problem with this article. It is malfunctioning. My computer shows only edits through Dec. 16 in the edit history of the main article. I have made edits to the main article, some of which show up in the text but DO NOT SHOW UP IN THE HISTORY. Some other of my edits do not show up anywhere. Clearly, there is a problem with the way the Wikipedia processor is handling this article. Is anyone else having similar problems on this or other articles? I can see none of the edits that Wikid supposedly made to this main article to incorporate text from the subarticle. Can someone please respond so that I will at least know that this post can be read by others???
The history is working fine for me. This doesn't appear to be a general problem. Averell ( talk) 08:51, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
It all looks OK to me, too. I've tried my 4-year-old laptop (Windows XP and both IE and Chrome) and my slightly older desktop (Ubuntu and Firefox). If there was a discrepancy between the page and the history, it would suggest that the wiki database was corrupted but, if it looks OK to most people, it sounds more like a browser problem for the individual concerned. Bluewave ( talk) 11:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Should photos be included of each of the defendants in their info boxes to make the story more interesting? Also, there are better photos of Meredith than the one included in her info box, but I don't know how to deal with any of the info box photos. The site True Justice for Meredith has many better photos of Meredith. That site can be found in the External Links, photos of Perugia link. PilgrimRose ( talk) 04:28, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, her appearance is important to the case. But this is not a fair-use rationale in itself: The fact can be easily explained in the text. Please have a look at the WP:Fair Use guidelines, especially this: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. (That's why I also think that the Kercher image doesn't really belong). Furthermore, living persons are separately listed on the "don't-use" category. And while I applaud any suggetion to let things cool down, the comment above is a bit besides the points: There are always editors who will come after all images with weak fair-use rationales. To these it doesn't matter what's on them. Averell ( talk) 08:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Friends of Amanda is mentioned in the article and we probably ought to say a bit more about them. I had a look at their site but couldn't find any info on who they are, what they are, how they are constituted, how they are funded, or anything. Of course, maybe I just didn't find the right bit of the site, but I expected that there would be some sort of list of names, a note of who was in charge, whether it is a charity and so on. Has anyone found a good source that would provide us with a few sentences about who and what they are? Bluewave ( talk) 13:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
There was a massive oversight in the source-reference diagrams for the house: the upstairs flat is actually divided into 2 parts, so I added the missing door (by the sofa) that separates the central living room/kitchen area (left-side) from the bedrooms of Knox & Kercher plus the smaller bath (right-side). Thus, Kercher's bedroom was separated by 3 doors from the outer rooms of the house. As you might know, when 2 doors are closed through a house, it is very difficult to hear conversations or stereo/CD music played at moderate volume, and 3-door separation muffles sounds even more. I spotted the missing hallway door, omitted from the BBC diagram, when comparing an inset photo showing the sofa near the wooden hallway door, toward those 2 back bedrooms. I don't think the BBC (or other maps) had intended to, somehow, bias/slant the house diagram. Instead, the missing door is most likely a mere oversight, because in many homes, the kitchen/living room often does not have a wooden door that blocks a hallway leading to the bedrooms. Anyway, consider the possibility that the hallway door was intentionally closed during some of the various events, and might alter what people could hear nearby. Remember: the upstairs flat is divided into 2 parts. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Also the diagram shows two taps but there was only one. Also in the corner of the Amanda/Meredith bathroom is a set of drawers. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508528/Chilling-pictures-Meredith-murder-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html — 82.26.210.166 ( talk) 13:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Wikid77 has helpfully been through and added content from Trial of Knox and Sollecito to this article. This appears to have been quite thorough - I can't see any outstanding material not already contained in this article that was not moved over. Are there any objections to deleting the other article now? -- FormerIP ( talk) 01:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Please note when merging: a lot of the material in Trial of Knox and Sollecito was originally taken from this page and re-arranged. We do not need to merge this material back, because it is just word-for-word duplication. Please do merge any worthwhile material that is not already included in the article. -- FormerIP ( talk) 16:12, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
What was stolen from Kercher, and when? Was it ever recovered? Who was convicted of theft? The infobox for those who were should have theft added to the convictions line. Lkjhgfdsa 0 ( talk) 18:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)