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I have tried to adopt neutral language and to source most of the statements. Some more work needs to be done here. I've also corrected the syntax and grammar. -- Mia-etol ( talk) 16:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
On reading the article I'm a bit vague as to how/why her husband was injured. He was shot in the leg - and - "previously critically injured"? In terms of significance his critical injury seems more noteworthy. Do we know how it happened? I've scanned some resources but not been able to sort it out. Manning ( talk) 06:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The name of the victim obviously occurs multiple times, and usual style would be to use a short form in most cases. The usual German (and Western) usage as a short form would be to use the last name El-Sherbini, because the first name Marwa would be overly familiar referring to a stranger and familiarity is often taken as disrespect. However, previous contributions to this article used Marwa as a shortened form sometimes. What would be the usual short form used, for example, by Egyptians writing in the English language? Tschild ( talk) 17:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
German Wikipedia says El-Sherbini studied in 1995-2000, for a bachelor's degree in pharmacology, but does not mention source and further information (where?). I'd like to add this education information to the Life section. Any precise sources known? Tschild ( talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
According to newspaper articles http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 and http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Dresden-Bluttat-Ermordung-Marwa-El-Sherbini;art771,2846201 El-Sherbini co-founded a local association. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 refers to an internet page of the association but I have not found the site yet - only a press release at http://www.turkishpress.de/content/islamisches-kulturzentrum-%E2%80%9Emarwa-el-sherbini%E2%80%9C-dresden13998 which has en e-mail address not a Web URL. There http://izdresden.de but that seems to be another association (e.V.), of another name. Tschild ( talk) 06:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The concept of criminal insult in German law does not seem to be widely understood (judging from the plurality of reports in the English-language press that refer to El-Sherbini 'suing' her later killer, sometimes of her winning compensation in the first trial). The basic concept is that in Germany insult (Beleidigung) is mainly a civil offence, but can be prosecuted as a criminal offence if there is a public interest (as seems to have been decided prior to the first trial). I cannot write something like that in a footnote because it would very likely be original research, and there is no English-language Wikipedia page on the subject to point people to (the English-language Wikipedia has articles on common law concepts like slander and libel instead), but I'd like to point readers in a footnote to a good English-language source on the concept of criminal insult particularly in Germany - can anyone point out one? Tschild ( talk) 10:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
77.20.72.238 changed back the wording to "was reported on 1 July 2009 ... and in print media with a tone of understatement on the following day. ... overshadowed by calls...". That's a non-NPOV phrasing and I'm going to change it back. You can of course refer to that view, but as someone's view not as a fact. I suggest you find a good source criticising the reporting and report that source's view, with a reference: "such and such a commentator criticised the initial reporting as understating the xenophobic|islamophobic nature of the attack", or some suchphrasing. Tschild ( talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Why has this been removed? They called upon Muslims not to instrumentalize the woman's death. [1] Egyptians working at Dresden University claimed they had not been subject to discrimation before and that they see the murder as an isolated incident. -- 89.245.194.219 ( talk) 11:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I suspect this is a poor translation. "Instrumentalisieren" translates to something like "to exploit" - which is a rather loaded word. "Instrumentalisieren" is loaded too, but a little less so, IMO. Not sure about the best replacement, but I also think it needs to be replaced. Stefanmuc ( talk) 11:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
References
Why is the reaction of the Max Planck Society relevant? Am I missing something? Datacharge ( talk) 06:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
There are a lot of issues here that raise comment. Why is the Max Planck Society comment relevant? Can this be subsumed into a section on "responses" to the crime? If the woman has been transformed from victim into cause celebe then there needs to be neutral point of view clarification of this, supported by reputable, and verifiable citations. Third, the material clarifying the German legal stand on last names, etc., needs to be better integrated into the text, rather than parenthetically; it is too distracting as a parenthetical remark within a sentence. Finally, MAJOR copy edit should be done. So, while it's a fairly complicated article, with lots of sources, it's still a start, albeit a good one. Auntieruth55 ( talk) 20:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
A lot of facts are sourced with German-language references (newspapers, some broadcast media) - I don't rightly know how to avoid it at present. There are good English-language sources that can be used wrt international reactions (Iranian president Ahmadinejad has weighted in lately - is that notable here?) but relating to the local facts in Dresden the English-language sources seem to be third or fourth hand. No sources that are nearly as rich in details as e.g. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 . Perhaps there will be good English-language writeups in the quality press when the indictment comes down in a few months' time. Tschild ( talk) 22:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Under "Verbal abuse and criminal case for insult" the following is plain wrong: "... a dispute about her 3-year old son, who was apparently playing on a swing that his niece wanted to use." Appearing last on the scene, Marwa El-Sherbini stepped out towards uncle (Alex W.) and his niece, then occupying the two swings on the playground, claiming the swing for her son. -- MilesSmiles ( talk) 17:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I just followed your link and much to my surprise found indeed this article backing the other version. Never read anything anywhere like that someplace else. Well, FR and some other publications are on a very strange campaign, scandalizing the events as if the woman fell victim to something they like to call 'islamophobia'. Therefore any form of critizism of the fidels and their customs is proved dangerous by now and should be prohibited. What is strange: there are a lots of scarf-victims indeed: almost every other day Muslim women are slaughtered by their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins all over Europe, because they want to quit wearing the scarf (or 'harming the honour' of 'their owners' in other ways) - all this never did provoke any outcry of those organised Muslims or their entourage, who are now proclaiming their deep grieve for the 'first Martyr of the scarf in Germany'. Even the policeman shooting the husband in the turmoil is a 'nazi' and a racist to some of those by now. You'll have to look very hard into those papers fuelling this campaign to find statements of the Ex-Muslims or the statement of aegyptiens in Germany. Those very concerned are not amused by this campaign at all. It would have been better to wait w/ this article until after the trail. -- MilesSmiles ( talk) 20:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I have moved the following links added at the end by an IP to this talk page: Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/23/page-6.html Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/09/page-3.html Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/08/page-3.html They may be relevant sources to be cited, but we'd need an English-language translation of what these articles report - the links were added without any context or explanation. Tschild ( talk) 18:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi, the paragraph about the charges now brought forward against the perpetrator reads
“ | Prosecutors cited perfidiousness as a qualifying characteristic for the murder charge, motivated by hate against non-Europeans and Muslims. | ” |
What the source says is
“ | "Da beide Opfer nicht mit der Attacke gerechnet hätten, sei das Mordmerkmal der Heimtücke erfüllt. Zudem geht die Staatsanwaltschaft von niedrigen Beweggründen aus und sieht „Hass auf Nichteuropäer und Moslems“ als Motiv des mutmaßlichen Täters. | ” |
“ | [Because both victims did not expect any attacks, a qualifying feature for murder, perfidiousness, was met. Additionally, the prosecuters assume low motives [or base motives? not sure what the correct translation is] and thinks that 'hate against non-Europeans and Muslims' as the motive of the suspect.] | ” |
This certainly does not mean that hate was the motive for the perpetrator's perfidousness. In fact, anyone somewhat familar with German legalspeak will know that "niedrigen Beweggründe", "low [or base] motives" is, just like perfidiousness, a qualifying feature for a murder charge. Plus the term is not very common outside jurisprudence. [For a full catalogue of qualifying features for a murder charge, see § 211 StBG. Moreover, if you read the excerpt from the prosecuter's press release available here, it is quite clear that the prosecuters think that perfidousness and the suspect's hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims are both qualifying features for the murder charge. Yaan ( talk) 12:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
“ | Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and hate against non-Europeans and Muslims as a qualifying characteristic for the murder charge. | ” |
“ | Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and maliciousness (based on hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims) as qualifying characteristics for the murder charge | ” |
hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims? There are about 4% foreigner/migrants in Dresden (about 500,000 inhabitants)
[1] They are from "Vietnam (1500), Poland (860), Russia (790), Ukraine (630), Portugal (550), Hungary (530), Italy (510) ... and Turkey (500) ..
[2]. The chance, to meet a "Muslim" in Dresden is less than 0.1%.
He wasn´t able to pay the fine and would be put in prison. I assume, that was the reason why he went
Berserker. --
Crato (
talk) 00:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Of all the groups you listed, only Turks and Vietnamese are correct, because others are other Europeans. Second of all, maybe its a small percentage in Dresden, but muslims are a big problem throughtout all of Germany and the rest of Europe.
Norum (
talk) 00:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
There is a site http://www.marwaelsherbiny.com that (according to the footer) is published by her 'friends and family'. Possibly it will be a source for future family statements etc. I'd like to make a note on one aspect for now: the text on the "What Happened" page contains in part text that is the same, or very similar, to this Wikipedia article. No reason to give them grief about that, but in case anyone should wonder if the Wikipedia page should contain text copied from marwaelsherbiny.com - that's not the case, some passages on WP and marwaelsherbiny.com have wording that I wrote originally on WP. So, WP did not lift text originally contributed to marwaelsherbiny.com - as I said, just in case someone wonders. Tschild ( talk) 21:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Dear All, I think there is actually a licence issue here. Although I am not entirely sure to what extent the new creative common licence (i.e. CC-BY-SA?) already applies, their site must technically attribute the author. My honourable and learned friend Tschild rightly states that no (additional) grief ought to be given, but I suggest to use the situation constructively and creatively and ask them whether they would release some of their images ( i.e.) under a CC-BY-SA licence (if possible), so we can use them. What do people think? Yours, Mootros ( talk) 21:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
These are short notes for future reference on editing the trial section, taken from news reports Tschild ( talk) 18:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Under the actual murder it says that the husband is suing the police officer who shot him because he thought he was the aggressor based solely on the fact that he was an Arab and Wiens was white. Well source 11 is a German article that supposedly claims the husband is suing said police officer but when I translated and read it, there was no such claim at all. If it is the case that this officer is being sued, then we need a real source, preferably an english one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.28.57.38 ( talk) 20:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Isn't it absurd and oversensational to dedicate such a large article to this? Christian minorities are being killed in arab countries under much worse circumstances, yet it barely gets mentioned. Also, the WikiPedia article on the Fort Hood shooting where an Arab shot a bunch of white people is clinically censored of any mention of racism? Where is the balance? 93.161.107.118 ( talk) 14:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: "be bold and DO contribute" We try, but as we don't dedicate our lives to monitor it 24 hours a day, it always gets reverted by enthusiastic activists. --
131.188.3.21 (
talk) 13:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: I'm not sure who "you" is referring to here - we're all editing wikipedia after all, and you're just as capable as anyone else of adding information to articles. If you feel there are specific,
notable incidents covered by
reliable sources, which do not currently have articles, please feel free to create them. --
ElijahOmega (
talk) 18:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
You know just as well as I that due to the sheer numbers of activists with an agenda patrolling WikiPedia, such an article would get censored or politically corrected immidiately. The average person is chanceless here and would be bullied out. It would require several people with significant spare time to be able to contribute something, the discussions on the talk pages alone would take full time work defending against the PC hordes. WikiPedia is heavily dominated by people with a political correctness agenda, just look at something like this -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
How on Earth could you let WikiPedia become driven by political ideologies and agendas like this? The so called neutral point of view is a joke LOL, there is no hope left for wikipedia unless you get radically cleaned up. I think it's very sad that WikiPedia got hijacked like this but I suppose it was predictable...
93.161.106.23 (
talk) 20:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
: There is an article on
Persecution of Christians. Feel free to expand on it (with reliable, notable sources) if you feel it is lacking.
I have removed the following part from the article, as I think it is a minor detail to the murder case that is not directly related. It has also sensational connotations. Mootros ( talk) 23:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
“ | On 1 November 2009, the newspaper Bild published a statement by Alex Wiens' mother about her son, stating that he was particularly distressed by his victim being pregnant and that he did not want to live. She expressed her regret for the suffering of the victim's family. [1] Her son, who had not made a statement at this point, reacted angrily, delaying the trial. [2] | ” |
References
Ich leide mit der Familie. Es tut mir so leid um die Frau, um ihr ungeborenes Kind, um den Sohn, der alles mit ansehen musste.
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cite news}}
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I've read that the court permitted Adhäsionsantrag ( i.e. § 406 StPO) which means that the claimant can ask for redress without Zivilklage (i.e. civil code case). How about we put this in the redress section and not in the main crimical trial section? Any takers? Any suggestions? Mootros ( talk) 15:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Has the case led to any reevaluation of whether a law against insults is really such a good thing? The plan was to lay a fine to keep a nut from yelling nasty things... now a woman is dead. Did anyone there notice that censorship doesn't actually work?
Wnt (
talk) 21:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
:Of course it doesn't work. Haven't you noticed that fighting with the current ridiculous aggression about racism actually increases racism instead of stopping it? If someone is not white (or is Jewish), you are not even allowed to criticize him, because you will be labeled as racist. This is actually used by a lot of criminals to commit even more crimes without fear of punishment... so people will hate them even more. Of course racism is a bad thing, but balance please, balance. However, Wikipedia is not a forum, so it's the place to discuss about it. We should only try to build an encyclopedia. And very often do we have to fight against sensationalism flowing through from mainstream media. Lot of articles are very skewed and currently I don't see much chance to stop ninja editors for example, who hunt for any article about something not liberal enough, and transform it so that it's just a few sentences about the topic itself, and hundreds of lines about who criticized it (even if they are just some unknown bloggers or journalists), and how evil it is. And, of course, try to find at least one word of criticism about articles from the opposite side. Even about anarchy. Nope. I'm sorry I went through all of this, I just wanted to answer your question... and maybe to tell those who have the editing style described above, and do it in a good faith, thinking they are fighting for a good cause: if you fight too harsh against racism, you will increase and indirectly encourage racism. By fighting too harsh against antisemitism, you will increase antisemitism, and make even more people believe in conspiracy theories. --
131.188.3.21 (
talk) 22:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Reviewer: Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 10:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
This seems an interesting article and has been on the Good Article Nomination page for a while, so I'll review it.
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
I'm adding this so that those who edit the article will now the high priority changes that are needed to the article. The article is on hold until the 12 December 2009 if the changes are not made then the article will be failed.
My first thought is that the lead is way to short for an article this size, there should probably be three paragraphs for the lead, the current paragraph is really fine as is, but a second paragraph should be added to include a summation of her death and a third should be added to include a summation of the response (both local and international) to her death. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not real human beings and therefore legally incapable of being insulted." has no CITE and could stand as a BLP violation. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"mistook Elwi Ali-Okaz for the attacker and shot him in the lower leg." Really needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Redress for victim's family" Since this is only a single sentence does this really needs it's own section, particularly a == level two section == I would prefer it to be integrated into the section above, but if it can be expanded then a === level three section === would be more appropriate. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
My first thought is that the lead is way to short for an article this size, there should probably be three paragraphs for the lead, the current paragraph is really fine as is, but a second paragraph should be added to include a summation of her death and a third should be added to include a summation of the response (both local and international) to her death. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
The infobox picture is currently up for deletion from wikimedia commons. From what I can gather from babelfish's rather appalling translation is that the image is not a good enough picture of Marwa El-Sherbini, or rather, that too much of the image is taken up by the flowers. We shall have to adopt a wait-and-see-approach to how this turns out. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
As for infobox-proper I have a minor question; her nationality is listed as Egyptian, whilst I have no doubt this was true was she also a German national? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
My initial thoughts for these two sections is that there are only three sentences that are cited, running through a (again very badly translated) version the cites used, both support the claims made in each sentence and the refs should be added to the end of each sentence rather than the paragraph as this helps towards verifiability. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"In 2008, the couple and their two-year-old son moved to Dresden" since the couple moved to Germany in 2005 this would imply there son was born in Germany, correct? Do we have any information to this effect? relatively minor detail. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant with her second child." Is there any evidence that the couple knew they were pregnant? I can't imagine an autopsy was the best way to find out. Again minor details. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Is it possible for these two sections to be expanded a little? If not then that's fine, but it just seems a bit threadbare at the moment. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
[Note 1] states that German media called him "Alex" however ref 5 (and presumably others) also call him "Alexander" the same as the British press, could the note be reworded to something like "and was referred to as Alex W. and/or Alexander W. in the German and British media." Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"but claiming German ethnic origin" needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"public playground for children" most playgrounds are for children, bit of redundancy. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"was called "Islamist", "terrorist" and (according to one report) "slut"." was called by who? A minor clarification is needed. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need [Note 3]? Maybe a better clarification is needed that German courts issue fines (rather than say the police, as in other European countries) and that no trial is held. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not real human beings and therefore legally incapable of being insulted." has no CITE and could stand as a BLP violation.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"openly xenophobic character of the incident" maybe "openly xenophobic nature of the incident" is a better way of putting it? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Could professional and lay judges be wikilinked?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"(this question was disallowed by the judge)." Could do with a cite. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Wiens attacked her with an 18 cm (7 in) long blade, which he had taken into the courtroom in his backpack." Could probably do with two CITEs, one to confirm the size of the blade and one to confirm he kept it in his backpack (as opposed to his belt, or wherever). Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"mistook Elwi Ali-Okaz for the attacker and shot him in the lower leg." Really needs a CITE.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Her three-year-old son was also injured " Do we know the extent of the sons injuries? minor detail.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Could involuntary manslaughter and denial of assistance be wikilinked?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Done
Mootros (
talk) 20:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
If the mother is dead and the father is in a coma for two days (and so presumably in hospital for a while longer) do we know what happened to the son in the intervening time? who looked after him, etc. minor detail. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"perfidiousness" could definitely do with a wikilink, maybe to wikitionary if applicable. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"as the defendant in 1991 was declared" could do with a rewording, "as the defendant was declared in 1991" better?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
[Note 4]: is there an English language page for Nebenklage? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Why were French lawyers involved? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"This was denied by a separate panel that had ruled on this motion." could do with a CITE.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage," Do we know the extent of the injury? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"with a finding of particular gravity of guilt." What? Is this badly worded or a peculiarity of German law that a person can be found "more" guilty? Could this be clarified (either rewording or a [Note] added).
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"This requires the convict to serve a minimum of 18 years before a board will review the possibility of parole for the first time.[4]" I'm a little iffy about this sentence, was it mandated in this case or it typical of all cases like this, and therefore subject to
WP:CRYSTALBALL?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Redress for victim's family" Since this is only a single sentence does this really needs it's own section, particularly a == level two section == I would prefer it to be integrated into the section above, but if it can be expanded then a === level three section === would be more appropriate. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"only in the light of the vociferous protests" can "vociferous" be wikilinked, to wikitionary if appropriate. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Are translations of the posters contained in the photo available? If they are can they be added to the caption.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Response by Muslim and Jewish bodies" I can understand Muslim, but why Jewish? were other religious organisations not as vocal? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Ref numbers 20, 39, 47, 63 and 79 are all dead links and will need to be re-found or replaced. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
There is no See also section. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Additionally not all (though to be fair most) CITEs are formatted properly.
CITE templates can be a big help, especially {{
cite web}} and {{
cite news}}. Sufficient CITEs are formatted correctly for this not to affect GA status, but it is still nice to future editors to have it all sorted properly. Also the cite templates that are used are all put in vertically leading the edit page to be a bit difficult to navigate at times, can the extra line breaks be removed for the cite templates as this not only makes editting easier but shaves a few extra bytes of the article.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Additionally <ref group=> does not need the "name=" parameter if it is only being used once.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Despite the reasonably minor nit-picking above this is a very well written and exemplary well referenced article.
Kudos all round.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Reviewer: Matthewedwards : Chat 22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I'll be reviewing this article against the Good article criteria. I have already checked it against the "quick fail criteria", and it passes that, so I will now begin the "review proper". This may take me up to two days, so please be patient :)
I will be back soon with a complete review. All the best, Matthewedwards : Chat 22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
The article is coming along nicely. Well done to Mootros and any other editors who have helped so far. Matthewedwards : Chat 00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
That should be all. Best of luck, Matthewedwards : Chat 08:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, following the latest round of edits, I'm happy to say that I think this article fully meets WP:GA?, and so I will be listing it at WP:GA. Very well done to Mootros and all the other editors of this article. Matthewedwards : Chat 21:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
According to this article: "Controversy is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate, usually concerning a matter of opinion..."
How can the murder of a person be a controversy? Disallowing to wear certain clothing may be controversial as a reaction to a murder would surely lead to a controversy. Similarly how can a reaction to a crime be a state of prolonged public dispute or debate. There is a difference between matter of opinion and prolonged public dispute. There is no evidence that the killing of El-Sherbini has resulted in a prolonged public dispute about cross-cultural communication. Or is there? In other words, what precisely is the dispute or debate in question? Mootros ( talk) 08:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
“ | Practising law in Germany, following EU regulations, fully-qualified lawyers from other EU countries, under certain circumstances, can represent clients in courts in Germany, whereas lawyers from non-EU countries can merely give legal advice but not represent in court. | ” |
I know this comes directly from one newpaper article [4] and this was added hastaly on request of a reviewer who wanted clarification as to why there were French and Egyptian lawyers in court, but:
Does anyone know what EU regulations are these and more importantly what German legislation do enshrine them? Or is this merely a case of lawyers making a defacto case on the EU regulations in the absence of national law? Also the mentioned distinction of representing and practising strikes me as unusual for the German context. Anyone, any idea? Many thanks,
Mootros (
talk) 10:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
I've made some progress on the issues too. Some brainstorming, for the time being. Further comments welcome:
And here the new version:
“ | In Germany, anyone can give legal advice [Rechtsbeistand] if: (i) advice is given free of charge to a person who is a member of one's family, a neighbour, or a person of close personal relationship, or if (ii) advice is given free of charge under the supervision of a person who has certain qualifications or permissions (Rechtsdienstleistungsgesetz 2008 § 6). Legally representing someone in a criminal trail in a court in Germany requires a relevant German legal qualification (i.e. Befähigung zum Richteramt), or a specific permission of the court in question (Strafprozeßordnung 1987 § 138). | ” |
Done Mootros ( talk) 22:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
The article is currently under review for FA. It has been suggested to copy edit it to 'fix grammar and punctuation problems' Please let me know if you are willing to undertake this. Many thanks! Mootros ( talk) 08:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the translation of offensichtlich unbegründet "justification" for the rejection decision as stated in the press. The court's document should be out within a few days here: http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/list.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=en&Datum=Aktuell&Sort=12288
http://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/mord-lg-dresden-aegypterin-un-anti-rassismus-ausschuss/ http://www.focus.de/regional/sachsen/prozesse-familie-von-getoeteter-aegypterin-legt-beschwerde-bei-un-ein_aid_1033564.html http://www.dnn-online.de/dresden/web/dresden-nachrichten/detail/-/specific/Familie-von-in-Dresden-getoeteter-aegypterin-Marwa-legt-Beschwerde-bei-UN-ein-45121164
Looking for English sources at the moment and waiting what transpires from this complaint. Mootros ( talk) 15:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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Seems like it would be a good idea for this page to link to the corresponding German Wikipedia page. However the German page is not de:Ermordung_von_Marwa_El-Sherbini, but de:Marwa_El-Sherbini. I tried to add the link under Languages in the left-hand column, but the wikidata page seems not to want to allow me to generate the link, given the different approaches to naming the article in the two languages.
For the time being I've placed a link in the lead after El-Sherbini's name. Perhaps someone more experienced can come up with a better solution. - Aingotno ( talk) 15:28, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
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I have tried to adopt neutral language and to source most of the statements. Some more work needs to be done here. I've also corrected the syntax and grammar. -- Mia-etol ( talk) 16:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
On reading the article I'm a bit vague as to how/why her husband was injured. He was shot in the leg - and - "previously critically injured"? In terms of significance his critical injury seems more noteworthy. Do we know how it happened? I've scanned some resources but not been able to sort it out. Manning ( talk) 06:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The name of the victim obviously occurs multiple times, and usual style would be to use a short form in most cases. The usual German (and Western) usage as a short form would be to use the last name El-Sherbini, because the first name Marwa would be overly familiar referring to a stranger and familiarity is often taken as disrespect. However, previous contributions to this article used Marwa as a shortened form sometimes. What would be the usual short form used, for example, by Egyptians writing in the English language? Tschild ( talk) 17:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
German Wikipedia says El-Sherbini studied in 1995-2000, for a bachelor's degree in pharmacology, but does not mention source and further information (where?). I'd like to add this education information to the Life section. Any precise sources known? Tschild ( talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
According to newspaper articles http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 and http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Dresden-Bluttat-Ermordung-Marwa-El-Sherbini;art771,2846201 El-Sherbini co-founded a local association. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 refers to an internet page of the association but I have not found the site yet - only a press release at http://www.turkishpress.de/content/islamisches-kulturzentrum-%E2%80%9Emarwa-el-sherbini%E2%80%9C-dresden13998 which has en e-mail address not a Web URL. There http://izdresden.de but that seems to be another association (e.V.), of another name. Tschild ( talk) 06:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The concept of criminal insult in German law does not seem to be widely understood (judging from the plurality of reports in the English-language press that refer to El-Sherbini 'suing' her later killer, sometimes of her winning compensation in the first trial). The basic concept is that in Germany insult (Beleidigung) is mainly a civil offence, but can be prosecuted as a criminal offence if there is a public interest (as seems to have been decided prior to the first trial). I cannot write something like that in a footnote because it would very likely be original research, and there is no English-language Wikipedia page on the subject to point people to (the English-language Wikipedia has articles on common law concepts like slander and libel instead), but I'd like to point readers in a footnote to a good English-language source on the concept of criminal insult particularly in Germany - can anyone point out one? Tschild ( talk) 10:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
77.20.72.238 changed back the wording to "was reported on 1 July 2009 ... and in print media with a tone of understatement on the following day. ... overshadowed by calls...". That's a non-NPOV phrasing and I'm going to change it back. You can of course refer to that view, but as someone's view not as a fact. I suggest you find a good source criticising the reporting and report that source's view, with a reference: "such and such a commentator criticised the initial reporting as understating the xenophobic|islamophobic nature of the attack", or some suchphrasing. Tschild ( talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Why has this been removed? They called upon Muslims not to instrumentalize the woman's death. [1] Egyptians working at Dresden University claimed they had not been subject to discrimation before and that they see the murder as an isolated incident. -- 89.245.194.219 ( talk) 11:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I suspect this is a poor translation. "Instrumentalisieren" translates to something like "to exploit" - which is a rather loaded word. "Instrumentalisieren" is loaded too, but a little less so, IMO. Not sure about the best replacement, but I also think it needs to be replaced. Stefanmuc ( talk) 11:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
References
Why is the reaction of the Max Planck Society relevant? Am I missing something? Datacharge ( talk) 06:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
There are a lot of issues here that raise comment. Why is the Max Planck Society comment relevant? Can this be subsumed into a section on "responses" to the crime? If the woman has been transformed from victim into cause celebe then there needs to be neutral point of view clarification of this, supported by reputable, and verifiable citations. Third, the material clarifying the German legal stand on last names, etc., needs to be better integrated into the text, rather than parenthetically; it is too distracting as a parenthetical remark within a sentence. Finally, MAJOR copy edit should be done. So, while it's a fairly complicated article, with lots of sources, it's still a start, albeit a good one. Auntieruth55 ( talk) 20:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
A lot of facts are sourced with German-language references (newspapers, some broadcast media) - I don't rightly know how to avoid it at present. There are good English-language sources that can be used wrt international reactions (Iranian president Ahmadinejad has weighted in lately - is that notable here?) but relating to the local facts in Dresden the English-language sources seem to be third or fourth hand. No sources that are nearly as rich in details as e.g. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 . Perhaps there will be good English-language writeups in the quality press when the indictment comes down in a few months' time. Tschild ( talk) 22:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Under "Verbal abuse and criminal case for insult" the following is plain wrong: "... a dispute about her 3-year old son, who was apparently playing on a swing that his niece wanted to use." Appearing last on the scene, Marwa El-Sherbini stepped out towards uncle (Alex W.) and his niece, then occupying the two swings on the playground, claiming the swing for her son. -- MilesSmiles ( talk) 17:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I just followed your link and much to my surprise found indeed this article backing the other version. Never read anything anywhere like that someplace else. Well, FR and some other publications are on a very strange campaign, scandalizing the events as if the woman fell victim to something they like to call 'islamophobia'. Therefore any form of critizism of the fidels and their customs is proved dangerous by now and should be prohibited. What is strange: there are a lots of scarf-victims indeed: almost every other day Muslim women are slaughtered by their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins all over Europe, because they want to quit wearing the scarf (or 'harming the honour' of 'their owners' in other ways) - all this never did provoke any outcry of those organised Muslims or their entourage, who are now proclaiming their deep grieve for the 'first Martyr of the scarf in Germany'. Even the policeman shooting the husband in the turmoil is a 'nazi' and a racist to some of those by now. You'll have to look very hard into those papers fuelling this campaign to find statements of the Ex-Muslims or the statement of aegyptiens in Germany. Those very concerned are not amused by this campaign at all. It would have been better to wait w/ this article until after the trail. -- MilesSmiles ( talk) 20:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I have moved the following links added at the end by an IP to this talk page: Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/23/page-6.html Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/09/page-3.html Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/08/page-3.html They may be relevant sources to be cited, but we'd need an English-language translation of what these articles report - the links were added without any context or explanation. Tschild ( talk) 18:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi, the paragraph about the charges now brought forward against the perpetrator reads
“ | Prosecutors cited perfidiousness as a qualifying characteristic for the murder charge, motivated by hate against non-Europeans and Muslims. | ” |
What the source says is
“ | "Da beide Opfer nicht mit der Attacke gerechnet hätten, sei das Mordmerkmal der Heimtücke erfüllt. Zudem geht die Staatsanwaltschaft von niedrigen Beweggründen aus und sieht „Hass auf Nichteuropäer und Moslems“ als Motiv des mutmaßlichen Täters. | ” |
“ | [Because both victims did not expect any attacks, a qualifying feature for murder, perfidiousness, was met. Additionally, the prosecuters assume low motives [or base motives? not sure what the correct translation is] and thinks that 'hate against non-Europeans and Muslims' as the motive of the suspect.] | ” |
This certainly does not mean that hate was the motive for the perpetrator's perfidousness. In fact, anyone somewhat familar with German legalspeak will know that "niedrigen Beweggründe", "low [or base] motives" is, just like perfidiousness, a qualifying feature for a murder charge. Plus the term is not very common outside jurisprudence. [For a full catalogue of qualifying features for a murder charge, see § 211 StBG. Moreover, if you read the excerpt from the prosecuter's press release available here, it is quite clear that the prosecuters think that perfidousness and the suspect's hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims are both qualifying features for the murder charge. Yaan ( talk) 12:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
“ | Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and hate against non-Europeans and Muslims as a qualifying characteristic for the murder charge. | ” |
“ | Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and maliciousness (based on hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims) as qualifying characteristics for the murder charge | ” |
hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims? There are about 4% foreigner/migrants in Dresden (about 500,000 inhabitants)
[1] They are from "Vietnam (1500), Poland (860), Russia (790), Ukraine (630), Portugal (550), Hungary (530), Italy (510) ... and Turkey (500) ..
[2]. The chance, to meet a "Muslim" in Dresden is less than 0.1%.
He wasn´t able to pay the fine and would be put in prison. I assume, that was the reason why he went
Berserker. --
Crato (
talk) 00:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Of all the groups you listed, only Turks and Vietnamese are correct, because others are other Europeans. Second of all, maybe its a small percentage in Dresden, but muslims are a big problem throughtout all of Germany and the rest of Europe.
Norum (
talk) 00:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
There is a site http://www.marwaelsherbiny.com that (according to the footer) is published by her 'friends and family'. Possibly it will be a source for future family statements etc. I'd like to make a note on one aspect for now: the text on the "What Happened" page contains in part text that is the same, or very similar, to this Wikipedia article. No reason to give them grief about that, but in case anyone should wonder if the Wikipedia page should contain text copied from marwaelsherbiny.com - that's not the case, some passages on WP and marwaelsherbiny.com have wording that I wrote originally on WP. So, WP did not lift text originally contributed to marwaelsherbiny.com - as I said, just in case someone wonders. Tschild ( talk) 21:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Dear All, I think there is actually a licence issue here. Although I am not entirely sure to what extent the new creative common licence (i.e. CC-BY-SA?) already applies, their site must technically attribute the author. My honourable and learned friend Tschild rightly states that no (additional) grief ought to be given, but I suggest to use the situation constructively and creatively and ask them whether they would release some of their images ( i.e.) under a CC-BY-SA licence (if possible), so we can use them. What do people think? Yours, Mootros ( talk) 21:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
These are short notes for future reference on editing the trial section, taken from news reports Tschild ( talk) 18:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Under the actual murder it says that the husband is suing the police officer who shot him because he thought he was the aggressor based solely on the fact that he was an Arab and Wiens was white. Well source 11 is a German article that supposedly claims the husband is suing said police officer but when I translated and read it, there was no such claim at all. If it is the case that this officer is being sued, then we need a real source, preferably an english one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.28.57.38 ( talk) 20:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Isn't it absurd and oversensational to dedicate such a large article to this? Christian minorities are being killed in arab countries under much worse circumstances, yet it barely gets mentioned. Also, the WikiPedia article on the Fort Hood shooting where an Arab shot a bunch of white people is clinically censored of any mention of racism? Where is the balance? 93.161.107.118 ( talk) 14:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: "be bold and DO contribute" We try, but as we don't dedicate our lives to monitor it 24 hours a day, it always gets reverted by enthusiastic activists. --
131.188.3.21 (
talk) 13:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: I'm not sure who "you" is referring to here - we're all editing wikipedia after all, and you're just as capable as anyone else of adding information to articles. If you feel there are specific,
notable incidents covered by
reliable sources, which do not currently have articles, please feel free to create them. --
ElijahOmega (
talk) 18:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
You know just as well as I that due to the sheer numbers of activists with an agenda patrolling WikiPedia, such an article would get censored or politically corrected immidiately. The average person is chanceless here and would be bullied out. It would require several people with significant spare time to be able to contribute something, the discussions on the talk pages alone would take full time work defending against the PC hordes. WikiPedia is heavily dominated by people with a political correctness agenda, just look at something like this -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
How on Earth could you let WikiPedia become driven by political ideologies and agendas like this? The so called neutral point of view is a joke LOL, there is no hope left for wikipedia unless you get radically cleaned up. I think it's very sad that WikiPedia got hijacked like this but I suppose it was predictable...
93.161.106.23 (
talk) 20:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
: There is an article on
Persecution of Christians. Feel free to expand on it (with reliable, notable sources) if you feel it is lacking.
I have removed the following part from the article, as I think it is a minor detail to the murder case that is not directly related. It has also sensational connotations. Mootros ( talk) 23:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
“ | On 1 November 2009, the newspaper Bild published a statement by Alex Wiens' mother about her son, stating that he was particularly distressed by his victim being pregnant and that he did not want to live. She expressed her regret for the suffering of the victim's family. [1] Her son, who had not made a statement at this point, reacted angrily, delaying the trial. [2] | ” |
References
Ich leide mit der Familie. Es tut mir so leid um die Frau, um ihr ungeborenes Kind, um den Sohn, der alles mit ansehen musste.
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I've read that the court permitted Adhäsionsantrag ( i.e. § 406 StPO) which means that the claimant can ask for redress without Zivilklage (i.e. civil code case). How about we put this in the redress section and not in the main crimical trial section? Any takers? Any suggestions? Mootros ( talk) 15:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Has the case led to any reevaluation of whether a law against insults is really such a good thing? The plan was to lay a fine to keep a nut from yelling nasty things... now a woman is dead. Did anyone there notice that censorship doesn't actually work?
Wnt (
talk) 21:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
:Of course it doesn't work. Haven't you noticed that fighting with the current ridiculous aggression about racism actually increases racism instead of stopping it? If someone is not white (or is Jewish), you are not even allowed to criticize him, because you will be labeled as racist. This is actually used by a lot of criminals to commit even more crimes without fear of punishment... so people will hate them even more. Of course racism is a bad thing, but balance please, balance. However, Wikipedia is not a forum, so it's the place to discuss about it. We should only try to build an encyclopedia. And very often do we have to fight against sensationalism flowing through from mainstream media. Lot of articles are very skewed and currently I don't see much chance to stop ninja editors for example, who hunt for any article about something not liberal enough, and transform it so that it's just a few sentences about the topic itself, and hundreds of lines about who criticized it (even if they are just some unknown bloggers or journalists), and how evil it is. And, of course, try to find at least one word of criticism about articles from the opposite side. Even about anarchy. Nope. I'm sorry I went through all of this, I just wanted to answer your question... and maybe to tell those who have the editing style described above, and do it in a good faith, thinking they are fighting for a good cause: if you fight too harsh against racism, you will increase and indirectly encourage racism. By fighting too harsh against antisemitism, you will increase antisemitism, and make even more people believe in conspiracy theories. --
131.188.3.21 (
talk) 22:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Reviewer: Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 10:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
This seems an interesting article and has been on the Good Article Nomination page for a while, so I'll review it.
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
I'm adding this so that those who edit the article will now the high priority changes that are needed to the article. The article is on hold until the 12 December 2009 if the changes are not made then the article will be failed.
My first thought is that the lead is way to short for an article this size, there should probably be three paragraphs for the lead, the current paragraph is really fine as is, but a second paragraph should be added to include a summation of her death and a third should be added to include a summation of the response (both local and international) to her death. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not real human beings and therefore legally incapable of being insulted." has no CITE and could stand as a BLP violation. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"mistook Elwi Ali-Okaz for the attacker and shot him in the lower leg." Really needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Redress for victim's family" Since this is only a single sentence does this really needs it's own section, particularly a == level two section == I would prefer it to be integrated into the section above, but if it can be expanded then a === level three section === would be more appropriate. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
My first thought is that the lead is way to short for an article this size, there should probably be three paragraphs for the lead, the current paragraph is really fine as is, but a second paragraph should be added to include a summation of her death and a third should be added to include a summation of the response (both local and international) to her death. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
The infobox picture is currently up for deletion from wikimedia commons. From what I can gather from babelfish's rather appalling translation is that the image is not a good enough picture of Marwa El-Sherbini, or rather, that too much of the image is taken up by the flowers. We shall have to adopt a wait-and-see-approach to how this turns out. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
As for infobox-proper I have a minor question; her nationality is listed as Egyptian, whilst I have no doubt this was true was she also a German national? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
My initial thoughts for these two sections is that there are only three sentences that are cited, running through a (again very badly translated) version the cites used, both support the claims made in each sentence and the refs should be added to the end of each sentence rather than the paragraph as this helps towards verifiability. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"In 2008, the couple and their two-year-old son moved to Dresden" since the couple moved to Germany in 2005 this would imply there son was born in Germany, correct? Do we have any information to this effect? relatively minor detail. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant with her second child." Is there any evidence that the couple knew they were pregnant? I can't imagine an autopsy was the best way to find out. Again minor details. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Is it possible for these two sections to be expanded a little? If not then that's fine, but it just seems a bit threadbare at the moment. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
[Note 1] states that German media called him "Alex" however ref 5 (and presumably others) also call him "Alexander" the same as the British press, could the note be reworded to something like "and was referred to as Alex W. and/or Alexander W. in the German and British media." Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"but claiming German ethnic origin" needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"public playground for children" most playgrounds are for children, bit of redundancy. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"was called "Islamist", "terrorist" and (according to one report) "slut"." was called by who? A minor clarification is needed. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need [Note 3]? Maybe a better clarification is needed that German courts issue fines (rather than say the police, as in other European countries) and that no trial is held. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not real human beings and therefore legally incapable of being insulted." has no CITE and could stand as a BLP violation.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"openly xenophobic character of the incident" maybe "openly xenophobic nature of the incident" is a better way of putting it? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Could professional and lay judges be wikilinked?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"(this question was disallowed by the judge)." Could do with a cite. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Wiens attacked her with an 18 cm (7 in) long blade, which he had taken into the courtroom in his backpack." Could probably do with two CITEs, one to confirm the size of the blade and one to confirm he kept it in his backpack (as opposed to his belt, or wherever). Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"mistook Elwi Ali-Okaz for the attacker and shot him in the lower leg." Really needs a CITE.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Her three-year-old son was also injured " Do we know the extent of the sons injuries? minor detail.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Could involuntary manslaughter and denial of assistance be wikilinked?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Done
Mootros (
talk) 20:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
If the mother is dead and the father is in a coma for two days (and so presumably in hospital for a while longer) do we know what happened to the son in the intervening time? who looked after him, etc. minor detail. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"perfidiousness" could definitely do with a wikilink, maybe to wikitionary if applicable. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"as the defendant in 1991 was declared" could do with a rewording, "as the defendant was declared in 1991" better?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
[Note 4]: is there an English language page for Nebenklage? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Why were French lawyers involved? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"This was denied by a separate panel that had ruled on this motion." could do with a CITE.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage," Do we know the extent of the injury? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"with a finding of particular gravity of guilt." What? Is this badly worded or a peculiarity of German law that a person can be found "more" guilty? Could this be clarified (either rewording or a [Note] added).
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"This requires the convict to serve a minimum of 18 years before a board will review the possibility of parole for the first time.[4]" I'm a little iffy about this sentence, was it mandated in this case or it typical of all cases like this, and therefore subject to
WP:CRYSTALBALL?
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Redress for victim's family" Since this is only a single sentence does this really needs it's own section, particularly a == level two section == I would prefer it to be integrated into the section above, but if it can be expanded then a === level three section === would be more appropriate. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"only in the light of the vociferous protests" can "vociferous" be wikilinked, to wikitionary if appropriate. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Are translations of the posters contained in the photo available? If they are can they be added to the caption.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"Response by Muslim and Jewish bodies" I can understand Muslim, but why Jewish? were other religious organisations not as vocal? Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Ref numbers 20, 39, 47, 63 and 79 are all dead links and will need to be re-found or replaced. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
There is no See also section. Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Additionally not all (though to be fair most) CITEs are formatted properly.
CITE templates can be a big help, especially {{
cite web}} and {{
cite news}}. Sufficient CITEs are formatted correctly for this not to affect GA status, but it is still nice to future editors to have it all sorted properly. Also the cite templates that are used are all put in vertically leading the edit page to be a bit difficult to navigate at times, can the extra line breaks be removed for the cite templates as this not only makes editting easier but shaves a few extra bytes of the article.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Additionally <ref group=> does not need the "name=" parameter if it is only being used once.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Despite the reasonably minor nit-picking above this is a very well written and exemplary well referenced article.
Kudos all round.
Sanguis Sanies (
talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Reviewer: Matthewedwards : Chat 22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I'll be reviewing this article against the Good article criteria. I have already checked it against the "quick fail criteria", and it passes that, so I will now begin the "review proper". This may take me up to two days, so please be patient :)
I will be back soon with a complete review. All the best, Matthewedwards : Chat 22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
The article is coming along nicely. Well done to Mootros and any other editors who have helped so far. Matthewedwards : Chat 00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
That should be all. Best of luck, Matthewedwards : Chat 08:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, following the latest round of edits, I'm happy to say that I think this article fully meets WP:GA?, and so I will be listing it at WP:GA. Very well done to Mootros and all the other editors of this article. Matthewedwards : Chat 21:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
According to this article: "Controversy is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate, usually concerning a matter of opinion..."
How can the murder of a person be a controversy? Disallowing to wear certain clothing may be controversial as a reaction to a murder would surely lead to a controversy. Similarly how can a reaction to a crime be a state of prolonged public dispute or debate. There is a difference between matter of opinion and prolonged public dispute. There is no evidence that the killing of El-Sherbini has resulted in a prolonged public dispute about cross-cultural communication. Or is there? In other words, what precisely is the dispute or debate in question? Mootros ( talk) 08:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
“ | Practising law in Germany, following EU regulations, fully-qualified lawyers from other EU countries, under certain circumstances, can represent clients in courts in Germany, whereas lawyers from non-EU countries can merely give legal advice but not represent in court. | ” |
I know this comes directly from one newpaper article [4] and this was added hastaly on request of a reviewer who wanted clarification as to why there were French and Egyptian lawyers in court, but:
Does anyone know what EU regulations are these and more importantly what German legislation do enshrine them? Or is this merely a case of lawyers making a defacto case on the EU regulations in the absence of national law? Also the mentioned distinction of representing and practising strikes me as unusual for the German context. Anyone, any idea? Many thanks,
Mootros (
talk) 10:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
I've made some progress on the issues too. Some brainstorming, for the time being. Further comments welcome:
And here the new version:
“ | In Germany, anyone can give legal advice [Rechtsbeistand] if: (i) advice is given free of charge to a person who is a member of one's family, a neighbour, or a person of close personal relationship, or if (ii) advice is given free of charge under the supervision of a person who has certain qualifications or permissions (Rechtsdienstleistungsgesetz 2008 § 6). Legally representing someone in a criminal trail in a court in Germany requires a relevant German legal qualification (i.e. Befähigung zum Richteramt), or a specific permission of the court in question (Strafprozeßordnung 1987 § 138). | ” |
Done Mootros ( talk) 22:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
The article is currently under review for FA. It has been suggested to copy edit it to 'fix grammar and punctuation problems' Please let me know if you are willing to undertake this. Many thanks! Mootros ( talk) 08:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the translation of offensichtlich unbegründet "justification" for the rejection decision as stated in the press. The court's document should be out within a few days here: http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/list.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=en&Datum=Aktuell&Sort=12288
http://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/mord-lg-dresden-aegypterin-un-anti-rassismus-ausschuss/ http://www.focus.de/regional/sachsen/prozesse-familie-von-getoeteter-aegypterin-legt-beschwerde-bei-un-ein_aid_1033564.html http://www.dnn-online.de/dresden/web/dresden-nachrichten/detail/-/specific/Familie-von-in-Dresden-getoeteter-aegypterin-Marwa-legt-Beschwerde-bei-UN-ein-45121164
Looking for English sources at the moment and waiting what transpires from this complaint. Mootros ( talk) 15:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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Seems like it would be a good idea for this page to link to the corresponding German Wikipedia page. However the German page is not de:Ermordung_von_Marwa_El-Sherbini, but de:Marwa_El-Sherbini. I tried to add the link under Languages in the left-hand column, but the wikidata page seems not to want to allow me to generate the link, given the different approaches to naming the article in the two languages.
For the time being I've placed a link in the lead after El-Sherbini's name. Perhaps someone more experienced can come up with a better solution. - Aingotno ( talk) 15:28, 30 March 2019 (UTC)