This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This article mostly refers to musical tributes to Lennon and says nothing about his sad death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.174.243 ( talk) 11:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I really think the REPONSE section should have some information on how the news was delivered/reacted to in the UK, especially considering he was a British National and that, whilst he had lived in New York for many years, he was still a very, very important part of recent British history. I don't know much about how the news was dealt with, only what I've been told by people I know who were around at the time but I certainly think this article should be edited to include UK reaction, not just US. Thank you 77.97.192.18 ( talk) 13:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
This article could be a GA, but I know it's not something anyone will look forward to reviewing.-- andreasegde ( talk) 13:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated it.-- andreasegde ( talk) 17:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I was considering reviewing this last night but with so much else to do and considering the nature of the topic i wasnt up to it. I dont mind chiping in to get it up to GA though. Realist2 ( 'Come Speak To Me') 19:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the article's title should be John Lennon's death rather than what it is now, so that it makes more sense. I think that's how most of the 'death' articles are titled, and I think that it conveys the subject matter of the article better. Thoughts? Gary King ( talk) 06:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Article is on hold. Some comments to start with. This could very well become a good article, however, there are some things that need fixing:
If you can fix these, let me know on my talk page, and I'll see if it can pass. Thanks, Al Tally ( talk) 17:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Photos are not required for a GAR.-- andreasegde ( talk) 14:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I've got the famous one, but it feels slightly sickening to put it on here. I was going to put it on Chapman's page, as it would be better there, no?-- andreasegde ( talk) 14:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I would be on the side of supporting GA as a reviewer myself. Realist2 ( 'Come Speak To Me') 16:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The part about Howard Cosell announcing Lennon's death doesn't make any sense. If he was killed on 8 December 1980, how was he interviewed on Monday Night Football on 9 December 1980 (which also happens to be a Tuesday)?? Cosell's wiki page states that the interview happened 9 December 1974. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Cosell#Lennon.27s_death —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.178.180.5 ( talk) 19:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is this paragraph in here?
"Also, a year later Prince's song "Annie Christian", from his album Controversy, loosely based on his own personal issues and America's economy, and the Cold War suggests Annie Christian, a rude Soviet woman, murdered Lennon and tried to do the same with Ronald Reagan, but fails."
Not only is it poorly written, but it seems out of place. The section talks about how the news was broken, and the reactions of his fellow Beatles...and that's all fine. But why the mention of a song lyric by Prince penned over a year later? Surely there were countless songs written about the event or as a tribute and they're not listed here...nor should they be.
Remove? 70.91.35.27 ( talk) 17:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)Tim
I have a WABC aircheck tape from that night (actually 5:25 the next morning). Gus Engelman is heard phoning in a report to anchor Dan Ingram, repeating what Police Chief Sullivan had just told him, including Chapman's full name, age, height, weight, street address, and his movements from the time he arrived in New York from Hawaii. Engelman says that "according to Chief Sullivan" Chapman called out "Mr. Lennon", and he repeats Sullivan's phrase "using a combat stance". Sullivan had just spoken with Chapman, and my guess is that he got Chapman to re-enact how he did it, since "combat stance" is a police expression. I have also located another aircheck I didn't know I had, in which you hear Chief Sullivan himself speaking all the above information. I will make that aircheck available on line. -- Bluejay Young ( talk) 20:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a lot of allegations against CIA, FBI for the killing, even controversial, isn't it better to mention this in the article. Kasaalan ( talk) 11:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
The widespread theories should somehow be mentioned.
From Publishers Weekly
Bresler, a British lawyer, believes tht Mark Chapman, assassin of John Lennon, was no "lone nut" but was programmed by the CIA, through drugs and hypnosis, to carry out the murder. The N.Y.C. police lieutenant who interrogated Chapman the night of the slaying in 1980 is quoted here as saying: "He looked as if he could have been programmed." Bresler builds an entirely circumstantial case without a shred of hard evidence, but he does raise some interesting questions. Why, for instance, did Chapman, in 1975 a 19-year-old, religious, anti-Communist Southerner, select Russia as his preferred destination in a YMCA exchange program, and end up instead in Beirut? Bresler posits that Chapman was recruited by the CIA as a killer and kept "on hold" until the agency found a target: Lennon, portrayed here as a magnet for leftist causes. He argues that Chapman spent three "missing days" in Chicago before arriving in New York to shoot the rock star. As Bresler ( The Mystery of Georges Simenon ) reports, Lennon was kept under surveillance by both the FBI and CIA, but that in itself proves nothing. Author tour. Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Serious allegations exist, by British lawyer and writer Fenton Bresler in Who Killed John Lennon, St. Martin's Press (November 1990) Kasaalan ( talk) 01:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Fenton Bresler provides no proof at all of any 'C.I.A. or F.B.I.' involvement in Lennon's death. He simply discusses Mind Control history and speculates that Mark could have been such a stooge, again without presenting any proof that he was. Johnwrd ( talk) 22:44, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
If these ideas are presented in the article, it should be very brief and make sure that so far this is pure speculation and there is as yet no known hard evidence. Bresler and others who are doing serious research, if any, should be referenced. -- Bluejay Young ( talk) 19:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I will add this to the external links. This writer is trying to cover all the speculations and allegations (Bresler's included) without taking a hard and fast stance on any of them. I'm a bit annoyed by the amateur (or professional?) shrink droning on about Chapman's supposed "Asperger syndrome," but be that as it may. -- Bluejay Young ( talk) 09:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC) the man was arrested and still is facing critical prisons but is therea full reason fr lennons death xxx
Added principally because I noticed the article said nothing about what the New York justice system did with the killer. Vidor ( talk) 01:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
You did a great job on this, Vidor. In the days following the murder, four fans committed suicide, prompting Ono to release a statement to "stop the suicides" but I can't find anything on line. I only have the newspaper it appeared in. This is the only thing missing from "aftermath." Hotcop2 ( talk) 12:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Anyone know what's up with the choppy prose in this section? Four shots not cited, news outlet sentences stand-alone paragraphs and such? Shall I just sofixit? -- Moni3 ( talk) 23:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain how the medical community defines "dead on arrival"? The text here says doctors worked on John for 20 minutes, yet it also says he was pronounced "dead on arrival"? Obviously doctors wouldn't pronounce someone dead on their literal arrival at the hospital, so what's the criteria? Elsquared ( talk) 03:35, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Because of the Nixon administration, Hoover's FBI and CIA's heavy surveillance and deportation efforts against Lennon's left-wing revolutionary political activitism during 1970s-1980s, there are theories that the assassination after he "plans to become politically active again" with a new album, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] might have political motivation [7] [2] by Fenton Bresler (Who Killed John Lennon?), Alex Constantine (The Covert War Against Rock), Jesse Ventura and others. [8] [9] [10] [7]
allegations and conspiracy theories over CIA involvement
1 Jesse Ventura, ex-governor, ex-NAVY SEAL, ex-UDT member, author of American Conspiracies, radio-TV show host: The Young Turks: Jesse Ventura TYT Interview (Video and Transcript)
Ventura: You know, the ones in the 60s all had a common denominator except the Kennedy murders. But if you look at Malcolm X, if you look at Martin Luther King, and if you look at John Lennon, all of them were under heavy CIA surveillance when they were killed. And I, being a former Navy SEAL, understand that before you do an op, you do plenty of surveillance and plenty of intel work to make sure it goes correctly. And the real only common denominator to the whole thing is the CIA.
Uygur: You think the CIA might've had Lennon killed?
Ventura: Well, there's a good possibility, because Mark David Chapman was very strange. If you read about how that killing took place, Lennon was under heavy CIA surveillance, Reagan had just won, and Lennon was making a huge comeback at the time and they thought that he could galvanize the left because he was very liberal. And Chapman, if you look at his background, it's nothing like what the media told us about. The media told us he was infatuated with The Beatles, infatuated with John Lennon, and that's why he killed him. That's not true at all. In fact, he could've cared less about The Beatles, his actual favorite musician was Todd Rundgren, and he hated guns. And yet, the night he killed Lennon, he dropped into a professional shooting position, put five rounds in Lennon that a drill instructor would be proud of, and then his most strange behavior was when he was done. He had three opportunities to escape. He could've either ran into Central Park, he could've got onto the subway a block away and disappeared, or he could've just disappeared in the Manhattan streets. Instead, he backed up into the shadows, dropped the gun, pulled out J.D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye, and was reading it when the cops arrived.
2 Fenton Bresler: Who Killed John Lennon? St. Martin's Press, 1990, ISBN 0-312-92367-8
3 Alex Constantine, The Covert War Against Rock ( Feral House, 2000)
4 John Lennon — Life, Times And Assassination, by Phil Strongman from The Bluecoat Press, Phil Strongman and Alan Parker, John Lennon and the FBI Files, Sanctuary Publishing, Ltd. December 2003, ISBN 1860745229
5 Jon Wiener, professor of history at the University of California Irvine, The Nation contributing editor, a LA radio host, the plaintiff in a Freedom of Information lawsuit against FBI for its files on Lennon.
6 Conspiracy theories in American history: an encyclopedia by Peter Knight, ABC-CLIO, 2003, pp. 426-427
7 Radio journalist Mae Brussell, who broke the Watergate story 2 months before the Woodward-Bernstein expose, conspiracy theorist:
So instead edit war try to explain exactly what is bothering you. Kasaalan ( talk) 14:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
RFC for Death of John Lennon#Political murder conspiracies is ready, I asked Lennon GA reviewer User talk:Realist2 for comment too. Kasaalan ( talk) 13:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
It should be looked at and cleaned, as it is not the same article that passed the GA review.-- andreasegde ( talk) 18:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
This is an iconic and historic image of Lennon/Ono taken just weeks before his murder. Photos from this series appeared in the New York Times, the cover of People Magazine and elsewhere. The NYT even published an account chronicling that Lennon/Ono loved these photos. Wiki just acquired the rights to use it, and has no other photos of them together like this, so hopefully no one will want to remove it without understanding it's historical importance. X4n6 ( talk) 12:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree it's a great photo, but it really does need to be in John and Yoko's articles, where it would be very, very welcome. This article is about his death, so photo space is limited (it's not that big an article, after all). Go on, X4n6, be nice and put it in. BTW, you shouldn't even be arguing on this page. It's about the man's death.-- andreasegde ( talk) 17:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
As I explained in the edit summary, both films have had low budgets and received mixed to negative reviews from critics [3] [4]. Chapter 27 currently has a rating of 50% on Rotten Tomatoes for their "Cream of the Crop", better that the other film. And the source used for The Killing of John Lennon is from IMDb, which is not reliable, so stop adding false content.-- Earthh ( talk) 23:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
It now reads:
Two films depicting the murder of Lennon were released in close proximity of each other more than 25 years after the event. The first of the two, The Killing of John Lennon, was released on 7 December 2007, directed by Andrew Piddington. The second film was Chapter 27, released on 28 March 2008, directed by J. P. Schaefer. Of the two films, The Killing of John Lennon was better received than Chapter 27, as the latter was criticized by the press.[67][68]
That's as good as it gets, as this article is not about the films. In the future, do NOT remove references, Earthh.-- andreasegde ( talk) 13:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This article mostly refers to musical tributes to Lennon and says nothing about his sad death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.174.243 ( talk) 11:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I really think the REPONSE section should have some information on how the news was delivered/reacted to in the UK, especially considering he was a British National and that, whilst he had lived in New York for many years, he was still a very, very important part of recent British history. I don't know much about how the news was dealt with, only what I've been told by people I know who were around at the time but I certainly think this article should be edited to include UK reaction, not just US. Thank you 77.97.192.18 ( talk) 13:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
This article could be a GA, but I know it's not something anyone will look forward to reviewing.-- andreasegde ( talk) 13:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated it.-- andreasegde ( talk) 17:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I was considering reviewing this last night but with so much else to do and considering the nature of the topic i wasnt up to it. I dont mind chiping in to get it up to GA though. Realist2 ( 'Come Speak To Me') 19:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the article's title should be John Lennon's death rather than what it is now, so that it makes more sense. I think that's how most of the 'death' articles are titled, and I think that it conveys the subject matter of the article better. Thoughts? Gary King ( talk) 06:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Article is on hold. Some comments to start with. This could very well become a good article, however, there are some things that need fixing:
If you can fix these, let me know on my talk page, and I'll see if it can pass. Thanks, Al Tally ( talk) 17:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Photos are not required for a GAR.-- andreasegde ( talk) 14:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I've got the famous one, but it feels slightly sickening to put it on here. I was going to put it on Chapman's page, as it would be better there, no?-- andreasegde ( talk) 14:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I would be on the side of supporting GA as a reviewer myself. Realist2 ( 'Come Speak To Me') 16:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The part about Howard Cosell announcing Lennon's death doesn't make any sense. If he was killed on 8 December 1980, how was he interviewed on Monday Night Football on 9 December 1980 (which also happens to be a Tuesday)?? Cosell's wiki page states that the interview happened 9 December 1974. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Cosell#Lennon.27s_death —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.178.180.5 ( talk) 19:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is this paragraph in here?
"Also, a year later Prince's song "Annie Christian", from his album Controversy, loosely based on his own personal issues and America's economy, and the Cold War suggests Annie Christian, a rude Soviet woman, murdered Lennon and tried to do the same with Ronald Reagan, but fails."
Not only is it poorly written, but it seems out of place. The section talks about how the news was broken, and the reactions of his fellow Beatles...and that's all fine. But why the mention of a song lyric by Prince penned over a year later? Surely there were countless songs written about the event or as a tribute and they're not listed here...nor should they be.
Remove? 70.91.35.27 ( talk) 17:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)Tim
I have a WABC aircheck tape from that night (actually 5:25 the next morning). Gus Engelman is heard phoning in a report to anchor Dan Ingram, repeating what Police Chief Sullivan had just told him, including Chapman's full name, age, height, weight, street address, and his movements from the time he arrived in New York from Hawaii. Engelman says that "according to Chief Sullivan" Chapman called out "Mr. Lennon", and he repeats Sullivan's phrase "using a combat stance". Sullivan had just spoken with Chapman, and my guess is that he got Chapman to re-enact how he did it, since "combat stance" is a police expression. I have also located another aircheck I didn't know I had, in which you hear Chief Sullivan himself speaking all the above information. I will make that aircheck available on line. -- Bluejay Young ( talk) 20:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a lot of allegations against CIA, FBI for the killing, even controversial, isn't it better to mention this in the article. Kasaalan ( talk) 11:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
The widespread theories should somehow be mentioned.
From Publishers Weekly
Bresler, a British lawyer, believes tht Mark Chapman, assassin of John Lennon, was no "lone nut" but was programmed by the CIA, through drugs and hypnosis, to carry out the murder. The N.Y.C. police lieutenant who interrogated Chapman the night of the slaying in 1980 is quoted here as saying: "He looked as if he could have been programmed." Bresler builds an entirely circumstantial case without a shred of hard evidence, but he does raise some interesting questions. Why, for instance, did Chapman, in 1975 a 19-year-old, religious, anti-Communist Southerner, select Russia as his preferred destination in a YMCA exchange program, and end up instead in Beirut? Bresler posits that Chapman was recruited by the CIA as a killer and kept "on hold" until the agency found a target: Lennon, portrayed here as a magnet for leftist causes. He argues that Chapman spent three "missing days" in Chicago before arriving in New York to shoot the rock star. As Bresler ( The Mystery of Georges Simenon ) reports, Lennon was kept under surveillance by both the FBI and CIA, but that in itself proves nothing. Author tour. Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Serious allegations exist, by British lawyer and writer Fenton Bresler in Who Killed John Lennon, St. Martin's Press (November 1990) Kasaalan ( talk) 01:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Fenton Bresler provides no proof at all of any 'C.I.A. or F.B.I.' involvement in Lennon's death. He simply discusses Mind Control history and speculates that Mark could have been such a stooge, again without presenting any proof that he was. Johnwrd ( talk) 22:44, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
If these ideas are presented in the article, it should be very brief and make sure that so far this is pure speculation and there is as yet no known hard evidence. Bresler and others who are doing serious research, if any, should be referenced. -- Bluejay Young ( talk) 19:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I will add this to the external links. This writer is trying to cover all the speculations and allegations (Bresler's included) without taking a hard and fast stance on any of them. I'm a bit annoyed by the amateur (or professional?) shrink droning on about Chapman's supposed "Asperger syndrome," but be that as it may. -- Bluejay Young ( talk) 09:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC) the man was arrested and still is facing critical prisons but is therea full reason fr lennons death xxx
Added principally because I noticed the article said nothing about what the New York justice system did with the killer. Vidor ( talk) 01:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
You did a great job on this, Vidor. In the days following the murder, four fans committed suicide, prompting Ono to release a statement to "stop the suicides" but I can't find anything on line. I only have the newspaper it appeared in. This is the only thing missing from "aftermath." Hotcop2 ( talk) 12:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Anyone know what's up with the choppy prose in this section? Four shots not cited, news outlet sentences stand-alone paragraphs and such? Shall I just sofixit? -- Moni3 ( talk) 23:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain how the medical community defines "dead on arrival"? The text here says doctors worked on John for 20 minutes, yet it also says he was pronounced "dead on arrival"? Obviously doctors wouldn't pronounce someone dead on their literal arrival at the hospital, so what's the criteria? Elsquared ( talk) 03:35, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Because of the Nixon administration, Hoover's FBI and CIA's heavy surveillance and deportation efforts against Lennon's left-wing revolutionary political activitism during 1970s-1980s, there are theories that the assassination after he "plans to become politically active again" with a new album, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] might have political motivation [7] [2] by Fenton Bresler (Who Killed John Lennon?), Alex Constantine (The Covert War Against Rock), Jesse Ventura and others. [8] [9] [10] [7]
allegations and conspiracy theories over CIA involvement
1 Jesse Ventura, ex-governor, ex-NAVY SEAL, ex-UDT member, author of American Conspiracies, radio-TV show host: The Young Turks: Jesse Ventura TYT Interview (Video and Transcript)
Ventura: You know, the ones in the 60s all had a common denominator except the Kennedy murders. But if you look at Malcolm X, if you look at Martin Luther King, and if you look at John Lennon, all of them were under heavy CIA surveillance when they were killed. And I, being a former Navy SEAL, understand that before you do an op, you do plenty of surveillance and plenty of intel work to make sure it goes correctly. And the real only common denominator to the whole thing is the CIA.
Uygur: You think the CIA might've had Lennon killed?
Ventura: Well, there's a good possibility, because Mark David Chapman was very strange. If you read about how that killing took place, Lennon was under heavy CIA surveillance, Reagan had just won, and Lennon was making a huge comeback at the time and they thought that he could galvanize the left because he was very liberal. And Chapman, if you look at his background, it's nothing like what the media told us about. The media told us he was infatuated with The Beatles, infatuated with John Lennon, and that's why he killed him. That's not true at all. In fact, he could've cared less about The Beatles, his actual favorite musician was Todd Rundgren, and he hated guns. And yet, the night he killed Lennon, he dropped into a professional shooting position, put five rounds in Lennon that a drill instructor would be proud of, and then his most strange behavior was when he was done. He had three opportunities to escape. He could've either ran into Central Park, he could've got onto the subway a block away and disappeared, or he could've just disappeared in the Manhattan streets. Instead, he backed up into the shadows, dropped the gun, pulled out J.D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye, and was reading it when the cops arrived.
2 Fenton Bresler: Who Killed John Lennon? St. Martin's Press, 1990, ISBN 0-312-92367-8
3 Alex Constantine, The Covert War Against Rock ( Feral House, 2000)
4 John Lennon — Life, Times And Assassination, by Phil Strongman from The Bluecoat Press, Phil Strongman and Alan Parker, John Lennon and the FBI Files, Sanctuary Publishing, Ltd. December 2003, ISBN 1860745229
5 Jon Wiener, professor of history at the University of California Irvine, The Nation contributing editor, a LA radio host, the plaintiff in a Freedom of Information lawsuit against FBI for its files on Lennon.
6 Conspiracy theories in American history: an encyclopedia by Peter Knight, ABC-CLIO, 2003, pp. 426-427
7 Radio journalist Mae Brussell, who broke the Watergate story 2 months before the Woodward-Bernstein expose, conspiracy theorist:
So instead edit war try to explain exactly what is bothering you. Kasaalan ( talk) 14:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
RFC for Death of John Lennon#Political murder conspiracies is ready, I asked Lennon GA reviewer User talk:Realist2 for comment too. Kasaalan ( talk) 13:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
It should be looked at and cleaned, as it is not the same article that passed the GA review.-- andreasegde ( talk) 18:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
This is an iconic and historic image of Lennon/Ono taken just weeks before his murder. Photos from this series appeared in the New York Times, the cover of People Magazine and elsewhere. The NYT even published an account chronicling that Lennon/Ono loved these photos. Wiki just acquired the rights to use it, and has no other photos of them together like this, so hopefully no one will want to remove it without understanding it's historical importance. X4n6 ( talk) 12:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree it's a great photo, but it really does need to be in John and Yoko's articles, where it would be very, very welcome. This article is about his death, so photo space is limited (it's not that big an article, after all). Go on, X4n6, be nice and put it in. BTW, you shouldn't even be arguing on this page. It's about the man's death.-- andreasegde ( talk) 17:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
As I explained in the edit summary, both films have had low budgets and received mixed to negative reviews from critics [3] [4]. Chapter 27 currently has a rating of 50% on Rotten Tomatoes for their "Cream of the Crop", better that the other film. And the source used for The Killing of John Lennon is from IMDb, which is not reliable, so stop adding false content.-- Earthh ( talk) 23:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
It now reads:
Two films depicting the murder of Lennon were released in close proximity of each other more than 25 years after the event. The first of the two, The Killing of John Lennon, was released on 7 December 2007, directed by Andrew Piddington. The second film was Chapter 27, released on 28 March 2008, directed by J. P. Schaefer. Of the two films, The Killing of John Lennon was better received than Chapter 27, as the latter was criticized by the press.[67][68]
That's as good as it gets, as this article is not about the films. In the future, do NOT remove references, Earthh.-- andreasegde ( talk) 13:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)