![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The most salient difference between the Shepard case and this one is that while Shepard's murderers were driven to kill by hate, the boy's rape and death was a sex crime. It was repulsive, unconscionable — and the predictable pastime of perverted criminals... Matthew Shepard died not because of an all-too-common sex crime, but because of prejudice. Essentially, Shepard was lynched — taken from a bar, beaten and left to die because he was the vilified "other," whom society has often cast as an acceptable target of abuse; Dirkhising was just "another" to a pair of deviants. And while child abuse is unfortunately no big news, lynching still is."
What is common is that the assailants did not respect the victim's rights. Matthew Shepard, whatever his assailants thought of his behaviour, had the right to life and liberty, and his life was taken away, his liberty to be who he chose was taken away. Jesse Dirkhising had the right to be what he wanted to be, but to satisfy the perversions of his assailants, he was taken, tied up and abused, and his welfare ignored to the point that he died. Matthew Shepard's assailants should never have interfered in Matthew's life; they should have left him at liberty. Jesse's assailants should have let Jesse go about his way and not taken him in and abused him.
The silly new "Matthew Shepard Law" elevates Matthew above Jesse, saying that Matthew's life was worth more, when they should be the same. The silly new law institutionalizes society's bias against Jesse. GBC 20:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I merged the Matthew Shepard section with the "Bias" section, for two reasons:
66.183.165.57 17:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the first I've heard of this article, or this case, and what sticks out as needing wikifying is the "Accusations of bias" section. The quotes _seem_ inflamatory and POV as if the point that two men might be gay and murdered the boy wasn't obvious. The Nexus and Google numbers are also wonky and, to me, detract from the point of the article. Much more could be said with far fewer words. I would hope the thrust of the article would be to share the information not prove to the world that men rape boys. Also the comparison to the Matthew Shepherd case seems, I want to say flimsy, for this article it may make sense to point out that the coverage was compared but then move on. This is _pedophilia_, a tragic case of a young victim's life cut short. Matthew Shepherd was an _adult_ trying to get laid in a gay bar who was savagely beaten in _hate crime_ by several men trying to beat up a queer. Let's also remember that Jesse Dirkhising's family can read this. Perhaps the whole matter can be tempered with some respect for a child who was brutalized then died. Benjiboi 03:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Why?
You included a link that directed me to the WIKIPEDIA standards for objectivity/impartiality, so clearly you believed the information was biased.
What I don't know is why.
As a WIKIPEDIA old-timer, you would do new members a great service by explaining your rationale in cases such as this; experiences like this could cause the loss of community members who actually might have had something valid to contribute.
So please help me understand... what don't you like about my link?
If it's the fact that the link directs to a page on the youthbeware site, then I will host the content elsewhere and link to that.
If it's because you believe the content itself is not fair/impartial, then why have you allowed other links to remain, when the articles to which they point are clearly biased? The WorldNetDaily article and The Traditional Values Coalition websites and the linked articles on them make no secret of their own agendas. It was my understanding that articles in the External Links section, being clearly NOT part of WIKIPEDIA, were included to give readers a deeper understanding of an article and/or a broader context within which to experience it.
If that wasn't why you removed my link, then perhaps it was a matter of credentials?
I have a degree in journalism. I have worked 20 years as a nonfiction writer, following work as both a newspaper reporter (police beat) and a magazine assistant editor. I have spent 200+ hours researching the Dirkhising case, poring over thousands of documents and assimilating information. The article to which I linked provides direct references on the bibliography page for ALL included source material, including twelve newspaper articles for which I paid Lexis/Nexis to gain access. I continue to expand the information there.
Having been an avid user on the 'take' side of WIKIPEDIA for some time, I wanted to give back to the community on a subject about which I have a bit more expertise than does the average visitor. It was my belief that readers of the WIKIPEDIA article might benefit from the results of my research, particularly in light of concerns previously expressed here that the current article focuses heavily on the media storm following Jesse Dirkhising's death and reveals practically nothing about who he was. I have worked very hard to get a sense of who he was, and am still working at it, and I have included in my account a great deal of biographical information that isn't available to most readers elsewhere on the web. I opted not to add my information to the main article after seeing the previous arguments about the article, especially since most of my sources are newspaper articles and not web pages that readers could easily click to, anyway, and so I opted for the External Link. Nonetheless, I assure you that my research is sound--I have a professional reputation to maintain--and I can provide the necessary documentation.
I need to know what your issue is before I can address it and make my factual (newspaper-based) core of information available to WIKIPEDIA readers who want to know about Jesse Dirkhising.
Nayehi 07:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone more familiar with this article please archive some of the outdated talk threads so those working on it can read more clearly what the current issues seem to be? Benjiboi 17:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The above links all seem to come from POV sources, let's ensure they are covered as acceptable by WP:EL before re-adding. Possible another source could be used instead. Benjiboi 00:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Anyone willing to hunt down a photo? Benji boi 21:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that this article should be primarily about Jesse. Matthew Shepherd should not provide the template. Jesse was murdered by homosexuals and was a hate crime committed by gay men. Not too pc, but it's a fact. One of Shepherd's murderers, they killed him for his money, is bisexual. How about we give Jesse his due in the article? Don't let the homosexuals downplay his death. 70.108.117.53 ( talk) 21:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
On 16 October 1999, six days before the Washington Times article's publication, Dr. William Pierce of the National Alliance broadcast a half-hour radio lecture treating the murder of Jesse Dirkhising by two homosexual men. A text copy of the broadcast can be found at
http://users.mo-net.com/mlindste/adv10169.html
The broadcast was heard nationally on shortwave radio, and it was immediately available worldwide by internet download from the National Alliance website. It isn't true that the mainstream media were the first to give the Dirkhising murder a measure of national exposure, and there is the possibility that not even the Washington Times article would have appeared had the prior National Alliance coverage of the crime not been published.
74.45.232.201 ( talk) 15:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC) Jerry Abbott
“ | My organization, the National Alliance, attempts to fight alienation among our people in many ways. One of the ways is a sticker we distribute which has on it the simple message, and I quote, "Earth's most endangered species: the White race. Help preserve it." | ” |
Could somebody who is willing to be honest, subjective and neutral please have another look at the Jesse Dirkhising page? It is NOT WP:NPOV and that makes it a really big problem. It's clear to me that it's nothing more than the POV of several editors who have taken over the Dirkhising page. Take note of the edits, sources, material and references used. It's all one sided. How can one assume good faith when we have editors pushing their own agenda through typical propaganda? This article needs to be deleted and re-written in order for it to work. It must be neutral, which it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CadenS ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there are POV problems, but I don't think the article should be rebuilt from the ground up. It should be reworked fairly extensively though. The Matthew Sheppard section should be just a link to the full article, and there are tinges of sexual bias which should be stripped out. I would also love to see a citation for the O'Reilly quote; it's a pretty good summary of the issues in play, but it doesn't sound like him at all. 128.84.79.171 ( talk) 00:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I tried to do some cleanup a few days ago, but the citations are really becoming a problem in this article. There is far too much markup cluttering up the text, and making it extremely' difficult to edit.
An example |
---|
I've made it small and it's lost its formatting because of the nowiki tags, but the sheer amount of markup is insane. It's near impossible to edit certain sections because of all the citation clutter. Surely this isn't the standard way of doing cites now? Exploding Boy ( talk) 14:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
|
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The most salient difference between the Shepard case and this one is that while Shepard's murderers were driven to kill by hate, the boy's rape and death was a sex crime. It was repulsive, unconscionable — and the predictable pastime of perverted criminals... Matthew Shepard died not because of an all-too-common sex crime, but because of prejudice. Essentially, Shepard was lynched — taken from a bar, beaten and left to die because he was the vilified "other," whom society has often cast as an acceptable target of abuse; Dirkhising was just "another" to a pair of deviants. And while child abuse is unfortunately no big news, lynching still is."
What is common is that the assailants did not respect the victim's rights. Matthew Shepard, whatever his assailants thought of his behaviour, had the right to life and liberty, and his life was taken away, his liberty to be who he chose was taken away. Jesse Dirkhising had the right to be what he wanted to be, but to satisfy the perversions of his assailants, he was taken, tied up and abused, and his welfare ignored to the point that he died. Matthew Shepard's assailants should never have interfered in Matthew's life; they should have left him at liberty. Jesse's assailants should have let Jesse go about his way and not taken him in and abused him.
The silly new "Matthew Shepard Law" elevates Matthew above Jesse, saying that Matthew's life was worth more, when they should be the same. The silly new law institutionalizes society's bias against Jesse. GBC 20:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I merged the Matthew Shepard section with the "Bias" section, for two reasons:
66.183.165.57 17:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the first I've heard of this article, or this case, and what sticks out as needing wikifying is the "Accusations of bias" section. The quotes _seem_ inflamatory and POV as if the point that two men might be gay and murdered the boy wasn't obvious. The Nexus and Google numbers are also wonky and, to me, detract from the point of the article. Much more could be said with far fewer words. I would hope the thrust of the article would be to share the information not prove to the world that men rape boys. Also the comparison to the Matthew Shepherd case seems, I want to say flimsy, for this article it may make sense to point out that the coverage was compared but then move on. This is _pedophilia_, a tragic case of a young victim's life cut short. Matthew Shepherd was an _adult_ trying to get laid in a gay bar who was savagely beaten in _hate crime_ by several men trying to beat up a queer. Let's also remember that Jesse Dirkhising's family can read this. Perhaps the whole matter can be tempered with some respect for a child who was brutalized then died. Benjiboi 03:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Why?
You included a link that directed me to the WIKIPEDIA standards for objectivity/impartiality, so clearly you believed the information was biased.
What I don't know is why.
As a WIKIPEDIA old-timer, you would do new members a great service by explaining your rationale in cases such as this; experiences like this could cause the loss of community members who actually might have had something valid to contribute.
So please help me understand... what don't you like about my link?
If it's the fact that the link directs to a page on the youthbeware site, then I will host the content elsewhere and link to that.
If it's because you believe the content itself is not fair/impartial, then why have you allowed other links to remain, when the articles to which they point are clearly biased? The WorldNetDaily article and The Traditional Values Coalition websites and the linked articles on them make no secret of their own agendas. It was my understanding that articles in the External Links section, being clearly NOT part of WIKIPEDIA, were included to give readers a deeper understanding of an article and/or a broader context within which to experience it.
If that wasn't why you removed my link, then perhaps it was a matter of credentials?
I have a degree in journalism. I have worked 20 years as a nonfiction writer, following work as both a newspaper reporter (police beat) and a magazine assistant editor. I have spent 200+ hours researching the Dirkhising case, poring over thousands of documents and assimilating information. The article to which I linked provides direct references on the bibliography page for ALL included source material, including twelve newspaper articles for which I paid Lexis/Nexis to gain access. I continue to expand the information there.
Having been an avid user on the 'take' side of WIKIPEDIA for some time, I wanted to give back to the community on a subject about which I have a bit more expertise than does the average visitor. It was my belief that readers of the WIKIPEDIA article might benefit from the results of my research, particularly in light of concerns previously expressed here that the current article focuses heavily on the media storm following Jesse Dirkhising's death and reveals practically nothing about who he was. I have worked very hard to get a sense of who he was, and am still working at it, and I have included in my account a great deal of biographical information that isn't available to most readers elsewhere on the web. I opted not to add my information to the main article after seeing the previous arguments about the article, especially since most of my sources are newspaper articles and not web pages that readers could easily click to, anyway, and so I opted for the External Link. Nonetheless, I assure you that my research is sound--I have a professional reputation to maintain--and I can provide the necessary documentation.
I need to know what your issue is before I can address it and make my factual (newspaper-based) core of information available to WIKIPEDIA readers who want to know about Jesse Dirkhising.
Nayehi 07:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone more familiar with this article please archive some of the outdated talk threads so those working on it can read more clearly what the current issues seem to be? Benjiboi 17:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The above links all seem to come from POV sources, let's ensure they are covered as acceptable by WP:EL before re-adding. Possible another source could be used instead. Benjiboi 00:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Anyone willing to hunt down a photo? Benji boi 21:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that this article should be primarily about Jesse. Matthew Shepherd should not provide the template. Jesse was murdered by homosexuals and was a hate crime committed by gay men. Not too pc, but it's a fact. One of Shepherd's murderers, they killed him for his money, is bisexual. How about we give Jesse his due in the article? Don't let the homosexuals downplay his death. 70.108.117.53 ( talk) 21:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
On 16 October 1999, six days before the Washington Times article's publication, Dr. William Pierce of the National Alliance broadcast a half-hour radio lecture treating the murder of Jesse Dirkhising by two homosexual men. A text copy of the broadcast can be found at
http://users.mo-net.com/mlindste/adv10169.html
The broadcast was heard nationally on shortwave radio, and it was immediately available worldwide by internet download from the National Alliance website. It isn't true that the mainstream media were the first to give the Dirkhising murder a measure of national exposure, and there is the possibility that not even the Washington Times article would have appeared had the prior National Alliance coverage of the crime not been published.
74.45.232.201 ( talk) 15:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC) Jerry Abbott
“ | My organization, the National Alliance, attempts to fight alienation among our people in many ways. One of the ways is a sticker we distribute which has on it the simple message, and I quote, "Earth's most endangered species: the White race. Help preserve it." | ” |
Could somebody who is willing to be honest, subjective and neutral please have another look at the Jesse Dirkhising page? It is NOT WP:NPOV and that makes it a really big problem. It's clear to me that it's nothing more than the POV of several editors who have taken over the Dirkhising page. Take note of the edits, sources, material and references used. It's all one sided. How can one assume good faith when we have editors pushing their own agenda through typical propaganda? This article needs to be deleted and re-written in order for it to work. It must be neutral, which it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CadenS ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there are POV problems, but I don't think the article should be rebuilt from the ground up. It should be reworked fairly extensively though. The Matthew Sheppard section should be just a link to the full article, and there are tinges of sexual bias which should be stripped out. I would also love to see a citation for the O'Reilly quote; it's a pretty good summary of the issues in play, but it doesn't sound like him at all. 128.84.79.171 ( talk) 00:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I tried to do some cleanup a few days ago, but the citations are really becoming a problem in this article. There is far too much markup cluttering up the text, and making it extremely' difficult to edit.
An example |
---|
I've made it small and it's lost its formatting because of the nowiki tags, but the sheer amount of markup is insane. It's near impossible to edit certain sections because of all the citation clutter. Surely this isn't the standard way of doing cites now? Exploding Boy ( talk) 14:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
|