This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Muqtada al-Sadr article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article uses the term "coalition" (sometimes capitalized) coined by the powers that invaded Iraq to describe their alliance. I think this is slightly POV, since the term has been used extensively by the governments of these powers in attempts to create the appearance of a broad alliance where there is actually only token participation by all but two countries. "Coalition" is a positively connoted term which these governments would be unlikely to apply, for instance, to groupings of their opponents which they call "networks". I'm aware that it may be difficult to avoid usage of this term altogether, as it has found its way into acronyms like "CPA", but I feel there is room for improvement in this article -- for instance, I would propose replacing "revolt against the coalition of forces occupying Iraq" by "revolt against the forces occupying Iraq", and "coalition forces" by "occupation forces". I don't want to start an edit war, so I'd like to invite comments on this first. Fpahl 12:17, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've now found discussion on related topics at Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq and have posted a similar comment there; that's probably a better forum for this discussion. I've also added an NPOV dispute note to this article. Fpahl 13:44, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Not that it matters, but-- the poster above who asks if the Axis, had they won WWII, would have referred to their defeated opponents as the Allies. Bad example. The Rome-Berlin Axis was a term coined by the Germans and Italians themselves. The Germans used variations of "Allies," "Allied Powers," "Anglo-American Allies," etc., throughout the war to refer to their enemies. These were not terms coined ex post facto by the winners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.130.104 ( talk) 14:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
It is amazing how in this article on Muqtada, every well-established Shia family of ulemas are insulted, accused of various collusions and crimes, including Ali al-Sistani, the Dean of the Najaf grand hawza, the illustrious al-Khoei family--the bearers of the incomparable Supreme Ayatollah Khoei--in favor of a neophyte with NO religious credentials with a hand bloodied in the stabbing murder of the young al-Khoei and the blowing up of Grand Ayatollah Hakim. While all credit should be given to Muqtada for his political machination, taking money from anyone who offers it---from Iran to the Sunni Arab governments, to al-Qaeda and in fact the remnants of the old Baathists--to further his attempts at the destruction of the 1400-year old Shia hierarchy in Najaf for his own temporal political gain, one should not forget that the Shias exist because of that same hierarchy that this articles insults and accuses of corruption so freely.
One wonders if any Iraqi Shia would be so bold and reckless to attack everything that has been held sacred, revered and respected for the sake of an opportunist young punk whose sole credential to legitimacy is being a relation of the late Grand Ayatollah M.S. al-Sadr and his recent marriage to that gentleman's daughter! One wonders who could have composed this so-called “biography” of Muqtada?
I find this article to be appallingly one-sided in certain respects. The question of just what happened at the start of the August hostilities, and whether al-Sadr or the United States "broke the truce" is at best very murky at this time, as can be readily seen in all mainstream media reports on the events in question. And yet, Wikipedia has no problem portraying al-Sadr as if he's a peaceful hero who has been backstabbed by the United States and the Iraqi government.
"Despite assurances in June that he would not face arrest and be allowed to stand in the 2005 elections, US and Iraqi forces moved against al-Sadr in August." This is a bold statement which lacks context.
In the section on the August 2004 Hostilities, we learn that "After the 4 June truce with the occupation forces, al-Sadr took steps to disband the Madhi army." Then, apparently in a horrible breach of the truce, "The June settlement was broken by US troops..." Any reader of our article who comes to it "fresh" might naturally wonder: gee, if al-Sadr took steps to disband the Madhi army, then why the hell are they all still there heavily armed? And if the came to the article with even a smattering of knowledge of news reports, they might wonder why we avoid mentioning the kidnapping of 18 Iraqi policemen at the start of hostilities?
Obviously the article should not whitewash the situation. But right now we are taking a murky historical event and reporting al-Sadr's propaganda as if it is credible, and completely ignoring the other side's response. Surely this should be fixed promptly. Jimbo Wales 13:52, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I wrote the initial section "August 2004 hostilities" and felt that it is NPOV. (I didn't see this debate because I was away for a few days.)
First, I have a question of principle on the NPOV policy: when we know the facts but a group denies those facts, are we still allowed to present them as facts? For example, some Christian and Muslim fundamentalist groups deny evolution and deny that DNA is the molecular basis of heredity - are we still allowed to state "DNA is the basis of heredity" since there is compelling scientific evidence for this, regardless of what some groups think? Or neo-Nazi groups typically deny the holocaust - are we still allowed to say "during the holocaust, six million Jews were killed in extermination camps" (since historical evidence estabilshes this as a fact). Or a more contemporary example: The Israeli government and Zionist groups insist on calling the West Bank barrier a "fence", but Palestinian groups, the World Court, and others call it a "wall" - is it NPOV for Wikipedia to state that "part of the West Bank barrier is a wall" (again an established fact). As far as I can see, the anwer to my question has to be yes, facts should be described as facts (and the views of dissenters should be mentioned but described as their views)- otherwise Wikipedia will be an "Orwellian" encyclopedia where facts are forever subjected to political/ideological discourse.
Now for some facts I believe to be established surrounding this article:
the truce (I googled for some time but couldn't find the original text of the truce)
the violation of the truce
I can't see any reason to doubt the account that it was the US/interim government that broke the truce when they moved to arrest Sadr, for the following reasons:
To respond directly to Jimbo's points above:
(a) the arrest of Sheikh Mithal al-Hasnawi did not breach the truce (which only concerned the arrest of Sadr himself) ; my wording (The June settlement was broken by US troops who arrested Sadr's representative in Karbala, Sheikh Mithal al Hasnawi on 31 July and surrounded al-Sadr's home on 3 August) was (unintentionally) misleading, my sincere apologies for that ; I included it because it was a first indication that the US/interim government were moving against Sadr.
(b) it is clear that there was no fighting until 3. August, which started when US/Iraqi forces surrounded and attacked Sadr's house - hence Sadr did observe the ceasefire ; whether he rigorously observed all the terms of the truce is open to interpretation (see Juan Cole above - he may indeed have genuinely believed to observe them when US/Iraqi officials may indeed have genuinely believed that he broke them) ; this complexity should be mentioned in the article
(c) it is an established fact that fighting started when US/Iraqi forces attacked Sadr's house - this fact is not open to interpretation, the sequence of events is not controversial ; it is true that the narrative in US and British media usually suggests that Sadr is to blame for the hostilities - typically without mentioning this fact ; this is not at all surprising: historically, in times of war, there has always been a strong tendency to view one own government's actions as defensive and the opponent's actions as offensive ; however facts must be described as facts and not be subjected to partisan discourse ; to maintain NPOV, the view expressed by "major respectable commentators" should be mentioned in the article.
In conclusion, I'd say that the sentence "The June settlement was violated by US/interim government forces who surrounded al-Sadr's home on 3 August" is important, factual and NPOV, and I would like to keep it unless there is evidence to the contrary. pir 14:20, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Can we have sone consensus on what Shi'a ought to be called? We use any of the above three with apparent abandon - ought to be only one since they're pretty much equivalent. Graft 21:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"Shi'ite" is the Anglicized version. Just like members of Bani Israel being called "Israelites" in English. For some reason, languages such as Arabic which gives names to certain groups comes out having an ending of "ite" in English. Shi'ite is considered incorrect by some Shias, and some just don't like the term. However, there is a minority who uses the term "Shi'ite", but usually where this is used the term "Sunnite" is also used. Both are incorrect if you are trying to call them by their true name. Armyrifle 15:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Armyrifle that "Shi`ite" is merely an Anglicized version of the term. It should be completely ruled out. With respect to the other two terms, I must dispute the assertion that "Shi`i" is the singular of "Shi`a". They are two distinct alternatives. Both terms can be used as both singular and plural. We need to establish consensus on which to go with. I took a course titled "Post-Saddam Iraq" a couple of years ago with Prof. Carol O'Leary at American University. She is a sociologist and an expert on Iraq. Her preference was "Shi`i", though I can't recall why. Also, you have all been using the wrong apostrophe. Transliterated Arabic words require the use of an inverted apostrophe (`) rather than the regular apostrophe ('). Montblanc2000 17:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion was moved from comments in the article itself, regarding the claim "After the 4 June truce with the occupation forces, al-Sadr took steps to disband the Madhi army."
To this I would add, the Mahdi army could easily be disbanded, and then reformed, within days. All the weapons were owned by the militia members themselves, and the members are not paid. If they went home, the army would be "disbanded". If they took to the streets again, angry about the arrest of Sadr's aid, then they would be "reformed". I just don't know whether the militia was ever disbanded or not. I'd like to know, if anyone has a cite. Also, every decision-maker in this situation, from Allawi to al-Sadr to Rumsfeld, has said things that have contradicted previous statements. Most influencial world figures, from Martin Luther King to Abe Lincoln to Bush to Kerry could be considered "liars" by this strict definition, but the inflamatory label doesn't really help to understand the person. Quadell (talk) 14:01, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
The article makes the following claims:
This is misleading or simply inaccurate:
Any comments on the above? Barring any objections I'll edit the referenced paragraph to make it less misleading and IMHO closer to NPOV. Neilc 08:59, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Neil, I think those edits would be highly valuable. For whatever reason(s) the current article is still very one sided. The reader gets a completely inaccurate picture of the story in Iraq with the highly selective poll data in the article. In particular I think that the 2% number is of critical importance. Jimbo Wales 12:32, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Who did the poll? What were the questions? What was the sample size? Who paid for it? The US has a group called the International Republican Institute that does phony polls in these types of situations, so I think my questions are valid. 71.36.238.145 ( talk) 16:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Kab ibn al-Ashraf
I'm going to edit the article now, because my concerns have not yet been addressed adequately. But I wanted to be clear that I am editing as an editor, like anyone else, and my changes are not decrees. I say this because I so seldom edit and because I do not want my edits to receive special protection, but rather to stand or fall on their own merits. Jimbo Wales 12:28, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
One little change that I made which may warrant some explanation. I removed a link to an editorial at greenleft.org.au, because first of all an extremely POV anti-US editorial is not a proper citation for fact. Greenleft in particular is not a credible source. Jimbo Wales 12:28, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the article is very close to NPOV at this point. There are just a few changes I would recommend. I thought I'd solicit reaction here before making them.
Are there other parts that still need the be NPOVed before the neutrality notice can be removed? Quadell (talk) 15:34, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)
Since there has been no discussion, and since the article is now linked from the main page, I'm going to make these changes. Can I remove the "disputed" header? Quadell (talk) 12:44, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
This will be fine with me. I might still be a little grumpy about parts of the article, but I find it to be much improved, and your suggestions are good. Jimbo Wales 14:10, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I made some changes to the text to reflect the situation as it stands today. One thing that is missing from this article is mention of the extent to which Sistani and other Shia leaders effectively abandoned Sadr to punishment from American forces. This is not a universal view but I think it should be at least mentioned as being widely held. Something that I have included is mention of large losses by the Mahdi militia. This is associated with a widely held view that Sadr's forces fared rather badly in combat with the Americans and began to suffer manpower and morale problems. Added to this is the fact that U.S. forces used the main gun of the Bradley fighting vehicle in fairly confined residential neighborhoods while confronting the Mahdi militia. This evidently led to pressure on Sadr from residents of the area to bring the hostilities to a halt. Whatever one may think of the American tactics or the degree to which they showed good faith in dealing with Sadr, it's very hard to escape the conclusion that the Mahdi militia could not stand up under the level of military pressure that was applied to them. This is undoubtedly what has led to Sadr's recent adoption of a much less confrontational posture. I have refrained from going this far in the text however. -- Wtmgeo 10:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Per current Wikipedia policy, as claimed by jguk to have been adopted by a prior consensus, I am prefixing the formal style Hojatoleslam to the present biographical entry. Do not revert this edit unless you can dispute the existing Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) policy regarding Honorific Prefixes, and the entry on Style (manner of address) containing examples.
Please note that it is my preference that the prefixed style not be used, however if it is used in some cases (such as for Pope Benedict XVI) but not for others (such as Muqtada al-Sadr) then this may constitute improper POV by the Wikipedia community. Because of the existing division of opinion regarding the appropriateness of this policy, a survey is currently being conducted at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Survey on Style-Prefixed Honorary Titles in which I encourage you to participate. Whig 04:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be named "Muqtada as-Sadr? I believe "al-Sadr" is technically not correct (even though it may be more popular on google). csloat 01:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Coolhunter, you added al-Sadr's DOB as August 13, 1973. I would be very interested to know your source, as I was under the impression this fact was generally unknown. Thanks. -- Vector4F 18:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I too would like to know the source of this information. I will tag it as "citation needed" in the meantime, but without proper documentation in a timely manner, I will be forced to change the date to unknown. Many USG officials and Iraq experts (from academia and the private sector) explicitly state that his age is unknown. Montblanc2000 08:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
PBP, I see that you added the DOB again, noting that you can Google it. I have, but none of the sources substantiate the claim. Please find a legitimate source to cite. Also, please discuss changes on this page before making them. Montblanc2000 03:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Where is the citation for the claim that: "On December 30, 2006 people loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr infiltrated the security detail for Saddam Hussein's execution, chanted 'Muqtada' and taunted Saddam, and got it all on film, which then circulated on Arab television and the internet." All of the media, both Western and Middle Eastern, reported that the execution was performed by the Iraqi Government. IMHO, absent a citation to a credible source to support the dissenting view that al-Sadr infiltrated the security detail for Saddam Hussein's execution, this claim should be removed.
sounds completely reasonable to remove it. Murderbike 09:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is the link to the story stating al-Sadr has fled to Iran. [10] — MichaelLinnear 01:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a debated subject. Many claim that he didn't flee, many claim that he did. It should be said in the article: "It is believed that he fled to Iran, but it is debated" or something like that. Armyrifle 15:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In islamic understanding there exists no "cleric". This is a christian approach and shows a severe misunderstanding of Islam. All islamic "cleric" reputation and formal shia ranks (like "Hojatolislam") depends on studies and abilities to speech about islam. 217.187.191.112 12:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There are no clerics on Sunni Islam, but there is a kind of clerical system in Shia Islam. However, it's not clerical like, for example, Catholicism. It's "clerical" as in there being different "ranks" that a person may achieve based on his/her knowledge of Islamic Jurisprudence ( Fiqh). Armyrifle 15:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised there's nothing here about the attempt on al-Sadr's life in 2004, described here. I'm not suggesting using this as the sole source, although Cockburn's reporting is some of the best coming out of Iraq. I'm sure lots of other sources for this can be found. Anyone want to do this? + ILike2BeAnonymous 18:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the intro paragraph say that he's the leader of the Mahdi Army and maybe that his political party has a good number of seats in the Parliament? I think the focus on who he's related to now is a bit odd. 140.247.237.161 20:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Considering that even Muqtada himself does not regard himself as a mujtahid, how can it be appropriate to describe him in the opening as a "theologian"? Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe him as a "religious and political leader" and leave it at that? Winterbadger ( talk) 19:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Where we see "In his sermons and public interviews al-Sadr has repeatedly demanded an immediate withdrawal of all US led coalition forces, all foreign troops under United Nations control, and the establishment of a new central Iraqi government, not connected to the Ba'ath party or the current Allawi government" -- does this mean "demanded withdrawal of all foreign troops under U.N. Control" or "demanded that all foreign troops be under U.N. Control"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo3sampl ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
"Please enter a comment below." You got it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignacio.Agulló ( talk • contribs) 00:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Why isn't there any information of him after the United States Army left Iraq? The war is still technically going on and he is partly responsible. -- 203.206.73.28 ( talk) 12:20, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks.-- 58.7.123.77 ( talk) 09:40, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
>> Iraqi cleric Sadr announces retirement ( Lihaas ( talk) 13:16, 16 February 2014 (UTC)).
Hello, I'm a new user, but I served in Iraq from 2005 and 2007-2008. Also have an associate in Political Science. I erased two "citations needed" as they were pro-Mahdi...if you will. Sadr means "back" in Arabic....also added the link above to the 2004 year, and erased Bio template. I like it how it is(concerning Prose), please make sure I wrote citation 11 fine, or if you can make it better, please do. Wnicholas70 ( talk) 20:13, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Muqtada al-Sadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:46, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
I changed the line that said the 1st Cavalry Division broke the back of the militia to the 1st Armor Division breaking their back. I was in Baghdad when all this happened. The 1st Cavalry Division replaced the 1st Armor Division and the Generals used the 1st Armor Division to go after the militia, instead of sending us home. We had already been in Iraq for a year when this happened. HEre are some sources to back this up:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jun/22/20040622-113720-3352r/?page=all
http://www.stripes.com/news/1st-armored-division-s-iraq-timeline-1.24297 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.18.173.102 ( talk) 17:03, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Is there any way we can de-italicize Muqtada al-Sadr's Arabic name (مقتدى الصدر)? It seems to be built into the template but it looks really wrong (to me at least, admittedly a non-native reader). Connorboyle ( talk) 04:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
{{
lang-ar}}
specifically sets |italic=no
. The template and
Module:Lang rendered Arabic script in an upright font at
this version. The
subsequent changes by Editor
Erutuon and myself broke the module and Editor Erutuon's most
recent edits have repaired the breakage. More about this at
Template talk:Lang#recent changes and lang-ar.Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Muqtada al-Sadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:36, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
There is a statement that says, "As a result of this, al-Sadr claims for himself neither the title of mujtahid (the equivalent of a senior religious scholar) nor the authority to issue any fatwas." Yet, later on the page speaks of Sadr, issuing a fatwa. There needs to be consistency in the page, or the content and accuracy of it, will be in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.174.243.190 ( talk) 11:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
The lede contains some text that the US news media suspects him of ordering the assassination of Abdul-Majid al-Khoei. Considering this is unverified and he denies it, it seems these sorts of rumours do not belong in the lede (but I agree it should be mentioned in the text somewhere). Is there any objection to removing this text from the lede? Ashmoo ( talk) 09:56, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Muqtada al-Sadr article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article uses the term "coalition" (sometimes capitalized) coined by the powers that invaded Iraq to describe their alliance. I think this is slightly POV, since the term has been used extensively by the governments of these powers in attempts to create the appearance of a broad alliance where there is actually only token participation by all but two countries. "Coalition" is a positively connoted term which these governments would be unlikely to apply, for instance, to groupings of their opponents which they call "networks". I'm aware that it may be difficult to avoid usage of this term altogether, as it has found its way into acronyms like "CPA", but I feel there is room for improvement in this article -- for instance, I would propose replacing "revolt against the coalition of forces occupying Iraq" by "revolt against the forces occupying Iraq", and "coalition forces" by "occupation forces". I don't want to start an edit war, so I'd like to invite comments on this first. Fpahl 12:17, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've now found discussion on related topics at Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq and have posted a similar comment there; that's probably a better forum for this discussion. I've also added an NPOV dispute note to this article. Fpahl 13:44, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Not that it matters, but-- the poster above who asks if the Axis, had they won WWII, would have referred to their defeated opponents as the Allies. Bad example. The Rome-Berlin Axis was a term coined by the Germans and Italians themselves. The Germans used variations of "Allies," "Allied Powers," "Anglo-American Allies," etc., throughout the war to refer to their enemies. These were not terms coined ex post facto by the winners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.130.104 ( talk) 14:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
It is amazing how in this article on Muqtada, every well-established Shia family of ulemas are insulted, accused of various collusions and crimes, including Ali al-Sistani, the Dean of the Najaf grand hawza, the illustrious al-Khoei family--the bearers of the incomparable Supreme Ayatollah Khoei--in favor of a neophyte with NO religious credentials with a hand bloodied in the stabbing murder of the young al-Khoei and the blowing up of Grand Ayatollah Hakim. While all credit should be given to Muqtada for his political machination, taking money from anyone who offers it---from Iran to the Sunni Arab governments, to al-Qaeda and in fact the remnants of the old Baathists--to further his attempts at the destruction of the 1400-year old Shia hierarchy in Najaf for his own temporal political gain, one should not forget that the Shias exist because of that same hierarchy that this articles insults and accuses of corruption so freely.
One wonders if any Iraqi Shia would be so bold and reckless to attack everything that has been held sacred, revered and respected for the sake of an opportunist young punk whose sole credential to legitimacy is being a relation of the late Grand Ayatollah M.S. al-Sadr and his recent marriage to that gentleman's daughter! One wonders who could have composed this so-called “biography” of Muqtada?
I find this article to be appallingly one-sided in certain respects. The question of just what happened at the start of the August hostilities, and whether al-Sadr or the United States "broke the truce" is at best very murky at this time, as can be readily seen in all mainstream media reports on the events in question. And yet, Wikipedia has no problem portraying al-Sadr as if he's a peaceful hero who has been backstabbed by the United States and the Iraqi government.
"Despite assurances in June that he would not face arrest and be allowed to stand in the 2005 elections, US and Iraqi forces moved against al-Sadr in August." This is a bold statement which lacks context.
In the section on the August 2004 Hostilities, we learn that "After the 4 June truce with the occupation forces, al-Sadr took steps to disband the Madhi army." Then, apparently in a horrible breach of the truce, "The June settlement was broken by US troops..." Any reader of our article who comes to it "fresh" might naturally wonder: gee, if al-Sadr took steps to disband the Madhi army, then why the hell are they all still there heavily armed? And if the came to the article with even a smattering of knowledge of news reports, they might wonder why we avoid mentioning the kidnapping of 18 Iraqi policemen at the start of hostilities?
Obviously the article should not whitewash the situation. But right now we are taking a murky historical event and reporting al-Sadr's propaganda as if it is credible, and completely ignoring the other side's response. Surely this should be fixed promptly. Jimbo Wales 13:52, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I wrote the initial section "August 2004 hostilities" and felt that it is NPOV. (I didn't see this debate because I was away for a few days.)
First, I have a question of principle on the NPOV policy: when we know the facts but a group denies those facts, are we still allowed to present them as facts? For example, some Christian and Muslim fundamentalist groups deny evolution and deny that DNA is the molecular basis of heredity - are we still allowed to state "DNA is the basis of heredity" since there is compelling scientific evidence for this, regardless of what some groups think? Or neo-Nazi groups typically deny the holocaust - are we still allowed to say "during the holocaust, six million Jews were killed in extermination camps" (since historical evidence estabilshes this as a fact). Or a more contemporary example: The Israeli government and Zionist groups insist on calling the West Bank barrier a "fence", but Palestinian groups, the World Court, and others call it a "wall" - is it NPOV for Wikipedia to state that "part of the West Bank barrier is a wall" (again an established fact). As far as I can see, the anwer to my question has to be yes, facts should be described as facts (and the views of dissenters should be mentioned but described as their views)- otherwise Wikipedia will be an "Orwellian" encyclopedia where facts are forever subjected to political/ideological discourse.
Now for some facts I believe to be established surrounding this article:
the truce (I googled for some time but couldn't find the original text of the truce)
the violation of the truce
I can't see any reason to doubt the account that it was the US/interim government that broke the truce when they moved to arrest Sadr, for the following reasons:
To respond directly to Jimbo's points above:
(a) the arrest of Sheikh Mithal al-Hasnawi did not breach the truce (which only concerned the arrest of Sadr himself) ; my wording (The June settlement was broken by US troops who arrested Sadr's representative in Karbala, Sheikh Mithal al Hasnawi on 31 July and surrounded al-Sadr's home on 3 August) was (unintentionally) misleading, my sincere apologies for that ; I included it because it was a first indication that the US/interim government were moving against Sadr.
(b) it is clear that there was no fighting until 3. August, which started when US/Iraqi forces surrounded and attacked Sadr's house - hence Sadr did observe the ceasefire ; whether he rigorously observed all the terms of the truce is open to interpretation (see Juan Cole above - he may indeed have genuinely believed to observe them when US/Iraqi officials may indeed have genuinely believed that he broke them) ; this complexity should be mentioned in the article
(c) it is an established fact that fighting started when US/Iraqi forces attacked Sadr's house - this fact is not open to interpretation, the sequence of events is not controversial ; it is true that the narrative in US and British media usually suggests that Sadr is to blame for the hostilities - typically without mentioning this fact ; this is not at all surprising: historically, in times of war, there has always been a strong tendency to view one own government's actions as defensive and the opponent's actions as offensive ; however facts must be described as facts and not be subjected to partisan discourse ; to maintain NPOV, the view expressed by "major respectable commentators" should be mentioned in the article.
In conclusion, I'd say that the sentence "The June settlement was violated by US/interim government forces who surrounded al-Sadr's home on 3 August" is important, factual and NPOV, and I would like to keep it unless there is evidence to the contrary. pir 14:20, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Can we have sone consensus on what Shi'a ought to be called? We use any of the above three with apparent abandon - ought to be only one since they're pretty much equivalent. Graft 21:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"Shi'ite" is the Anglicized version. Just like members of Bani Israel being called "Israelites" in English. For some reason, languages such as Arabic which gives names to certain groups comes out having an ending of "ite" in English. Shi'ite is considered incorrect by some Shias, and some just don't like the term. However, there is a minority who uses the term "Shi'ite", but usually where this is used the term "Sunnite" is also used. Both are incorrect if you are trying to call them by their true name. Armyrifle 15:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Armyrifle that "Shi`ite" is merely an Anglicized version of the term. It should be completely ruled out. With respect to the other two terms, I must dispute the assertion that "Shi`i" is the singular of "Shi`a". They are two distinct alternatives. Both terms can be used as both singular and plural. We need to establish consensus on which to go with. I took a course titled "Post-Saddam Iraq" a couple of years ago with Prof. Carol O'Leary at American University. She is a sociologist and an expert on Iraq. Her preference was "Shi`i", though I can't recall why. Also, you have all been using the wrong apostrophe. Transliterated Arabic words require the use of an inverted apostrophe (`) rather than the regular apostrophe ('). Montblanc2000 17:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion was moved from comments in the article itself, regarding the claim "After the 4 June truce with the occupation forces, al-Sadr took steps to disband the Madhi army."
To this I would add, the Mahdi army could easily be disbanded, and then reformed, within days. All the weapons were owned by the militia members themselves, and the members are not paid. If they went home, the army would be "disbanded". If they took to the streets again, angry about the arrest of Sadr's aid, then they would be "reformed". I just don't know whether the militia was ever disbanded or not. I'd like to know, if anyone has a cite. Also, every decision-maker in this situation, from Allawi to al-Sadr to Rumsfeld, has said things that have contradicted previous statements. Most influencial world figures, from Martin Luther King to Abe Lincoln to Bush to Kerry could be considered "liars" by this strict definition, but the inflamatory label doesn't really help to understand the person. Quadell (talk) 14:01, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
The article makes the following claims:
This is misleading or simply inaccurate:
Any comments on the above? Barring any objections I'll edit the referenced paragraph to make it less misleading and IMHO closer to NPOV. Neilc 08:59, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Neil, I think those edits would be highly valuable. For whatever reason(s) the current article is still very one sided. The reader gets a completely inaccurate picture of the story in Iraq with the highly selective poll data in the article. In particular I think that the 2% number is of critical importance. Jimbo Wales 12:32, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Who did the poll? What were the questions? What was the sample size? Who paid for it? The US has a group called the International Republican Institute that does phony polls in these types of situations, so I think my questions are valid. 71.36.238.145 ( talk) 16:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Kab ibn al-Ashraf
I'm going to edit the article now, because my concerns have not yet been addressed adequately. But I wanted to be clear that I am editing as an editor, like anyone else, and my changes are not decrees. I say this because I so seldom edit and because I do not want my edits to receive special protection, but rather to stand or fall on their own merits. Jimbo Wales 12:28, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
One little change that I made which may warrant some explanation. I removed a link to an editorial at greenleft.org.au, because first of all an extremely POV anti-US editorial is not a proper citation for fact. Greenleft in particular is not a credible source. Jimbo Wales 12:28, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the article is very close to NPOV at this point. There are just a few changes I would recommend. I thought I'd solicit reaction here before making them.
Are there other parts that still need the be NPOVed before the neutrality notice can be removed? Quadell (talk) 15:34, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)
Since there has been no discussion, and since the article is now linked from the main page, I'm going to make these changes. Can I remove the "disputed" header? Quadell (talk) 12:44, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
This will be fine with me. I might still be a little grumpy about parts of the article, but I find it to be much improved, and your suggestions are good. Jimbo Wales 14:10, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I made some changes to the text to reflect the situation as it stands today. One thing that is missing from this article is mention of the extent to which Sistani and other Shia leaders effectively abandoned Sadr to punishment from American forces. This is not a universal view but I think it should be at least mentioned as being widely held. Something that I have included is mention of large losses by the Mahdi militia. This is associated with a widely held view that Sadr's forces fared rather badly in combat with the Americans and began to suffer manpower and morale problems. Added to this is the fact that U.S. forces used the main gun of the Bradley fighting vehicle in fairly confined residential neighborhoods while confronting the Mahdi militia. This evidently led to pressure on Sadr from residents of the area to bring the hostilities to a halt. Whatever one may think of the American tactics or the degree to which they showed good faith in dealing with Sadr, it's very hard to escape the conclusion that the Mahdi militia could not stand up under the level of military pressure that was applied to them. This is undoubtedly what has led to Sadr's recent adoption of a much less confrontational posture. I have refrained from going this far in the text however. -- Wtmgeo 10:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Per current Wikipedia policy, as claimed by jguk to have been adopted by a prior consensus, I am prefixing the formal style Hojatoleslam to the present biographical entry. Do not revert this edit unless you can dispute the existing Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) policy regarding Honorific Prefixes, and the entry on Style (manner of address) containing examples.
Please note that it is my preference that the prefixed style not be used, however if it is used in some cases (such as for Pope Benedict XVI) but not for others (such as Muqtada al-Sadr) then this may constitute improper POV by the Wikipedia community. Because of the existing division of opinion regarding the appropriateness of this policy, a survey is currently being conducted at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Survey on Style-Prefixed Honorary Titles in which I encourage you to participate. Whig 04:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be named "Muqtada as-Sadr? I believe "al-Sadr" is technically not correct (even though it may be more popular on google). csloat 01:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Coolhunter, you added al-Sadr's DOB as August 13, 1973. I would be very interested to know your source, as I was under the impression this fact was generally unknown. Thanks. -- Vector4F 18:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I too would like to know the source of this information. I will tag it as "citation needed" in the meantime, but without proper documentation in a timely manner, I will be forced to change the date to unknown. Many USG officials and Iraq experts (from academia and the private sector) explicitly state that his age is unknown. Montblanc2000 08:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
PBP, I see that you added the DOB again, noting that you can Google it. I have, but none of the sources substantiate the claim. Please find a legitimate source to cite. Also, please discuss changes on this page before making them. Montblanc2000 03:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Where is the citation for the claim that: "On December 30, 2006 people loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr infiltrated the security detail for Saddam Hussein's execution, chanted 'Muqtada' and taunted Saddam, and got it all on film, which then circulated on Arab television and the internet." All of the media, both Western and Middle Eastern, reported that the execution was performed by the Iraqi Government. IMHO, absent a citation to a credible source to support the dissenting view that al-Sadr infiltrated the security detail for Saddam Hussein's execution, this claim should be removed.
sounds completely reasonable to remove it. Murderbike 09:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is the link to the story stating al-Sadr has fled to Iran. [10] — MichaelLinnear 01:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a debated subject. Many claim that he didn't flee, many claim that he did. It should be said in the article: "It is believed that he fled to Iran, but it is debated" or something like that. Armyrifle 15:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In islamic understanding there exists no "cleric". This is a christian approach and shows a severe misunderstanding of Islam. All islamic "cleric" reputation and formal shia ranks (like "Hojatolislam") depends on studies and abilities to speech about islam. 217.187.191.112 12:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There are no clerics on Sunni Islam, but there is a kind of clerical system in Shia Islam. However, it's not clerical like, for example, Catholicism. It's "clerical" as in there being different "ranks" that a person may achieve based on his/her knowledge of Islamic Jurisprudence ( Fiqh). Armyrifle 15:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised there's nothing here about the attempt on al-Sadr's life in 2004, described here. I'm not suggesting using this as the sole source, although Cockburn's reporting is some of the best coming out of Iraq. I'm sure lots of other sources for this can be found. Anyone want to do this? + ILike2BeAnonymous 18:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the intro paragraph say that he's the leader of the Mahdi Army and maybe that his political party has a good number of seats in the Parliament? I think the focus on who he's related to now is a bit odd. 140.247.237.161 20:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Considering that even Muqtada himself does not regard himself as a mujtahid, how can it be appropriate to describe him in the opening as a "theologian"? Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe him as a "religious and political leader" and leave it at that? Winterbadger ( talk) 19:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Where we see "In his sermons and public interviews al-Sadr has repeatedly demanded an immediate withdrawal of all US led coalition forces, all foreign troops under United Nations control, and the establishment of a new central Iraqi government, not connected to the Ba'ath party or the current Allawi government" -- does this mean "demanded withdrawal of all foreign troops under U.N. Control" or "demanded that all foreign troops be under U.N. Control"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo3sampl ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
"Please enter a comment below." You got it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignacio.Agulló ( talk • contribs) 00:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Why isn't there any information of him after the United States Army left Iraq? The war is still technically going on and he is partly responsible. -- 203.206.73.28 ( talk) 12:20, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks.-- 58.7.123.77 ( talk) 09:40, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
>> Iraqi cleric Sadr announces retirement ( Lihaas ( talk) 13:16, 16 February 2014 (UTC)).
Hello, I'm a new user, but I served in Iraq from 2005 and 2007-2008. Also have an associate in Political Science. I erased two "citations needed" as they were pro-Mahdi...if you will. Sadr means "back" in Arabic....also added the link above to the 2004 year, and erased Bio template. I like it how it is(concerning Prose), please make sure I wrote citation 11 fine, or if you can make it better, please do. Wnicholas70 ( talk) 20:13, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Muqtada al-Sadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:46, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
I changed the line that said the 1st Cavalry Division broke the back of the militia to the 1st Armor Division breaking their back. I was in Baghdad when all this happened. The 1st Cavalry Division replaced the 1st Armor Division and the Generals used the 1st Armor Division to go after the militia, instead of sending us home. We had already been in Iraq for a year when this happened. HEre are some sources to back this up:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jun/22/20040622-113720-3352r/?page=all
http://www.stripes.com/news/1st-armored-division-s-iraq-timeline-1.24297 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.18.173.102 ( talk) 17:03, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Is there any way we can de-italicize Muqtada al-Sadr's Arabic name (مقتدى الصدر)? It seems to be built into the template but it looks really wrong (to me at least, admittedly a non-native reader). Connorboyle ( talk) 04:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
{{
lang-ar}}
specifically sets |italic=no
. The template and
Module:Lang rendered Arabic script in an upright font at
this version. The
subsequent changes by Editor
Erutuon and myself broke the module and Editor Erutuon's most
recent edits have repaired the breakage. More about this at
Template talk:Lang#recent changes and lang-ar.Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Muqtada al-Sadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:36, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
There is a statement that says, "As a result of this, al-Sadr claims for himself neither the title of mujtahid (the equivalent of a senior religious scholar) nor the authority to issue any fatwas." Yet, later on the page speaks of Sadr, issuing a fatwa. There needs to be consistency in the page, or the content and accuracy of it, will be in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.174.243.190 ( talk) 11:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
The lede contains some text that the US news media suspects him of ordering the assassination of Abdul-Majid al-Khoei. Considering this is unverified and he denies it, it seems these sorts of rumours do not belong in the lede (but I agree it should be mentioned in the text somewhere). Is there any objection to removing this text from the lede? Ashmoo ( talk) 09:56, 4 January 2023 (UTC)