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I have family member that has currently fallen victim to one of these schemes and is telling me numbers that I believe to be inaccurate, "That there are more millionaires in MLM or Network Marketing than in any other industry in the USA" Can we please put up some actual numbers on the article that are sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.139.85.43 ( talk) 18:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Unilevel compensation is not the same as Stair-Step Breakaway. I fixed this by removing Unilevel from the Stair-step area and adding a Unilevel explanation. Also, the explanation of stair-step breakaway seems to be related to a particular company, not a true definition of the plan. I will fix this when I get time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.107.32 ( talk) 04:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I added Hybrid compensation plans to the article today. Would it help if I cited particular companies and documents that showed examples of these plans? Djglove ( talk) 16:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
MLM in the UK has a completely different meaning; maybe that should be mentioned in the article...
I would also add that the two terms are not interchangeable. Network marketing is about the structure which is created. Multilevel refers to the commissions paid on more than one level in the structure. It is quite normal for a company to have many, many levels in it's network but only to pay the independent contractors/distributors on one level. Therefore I move that we do NOT merge the two categories. (Credentials: full time network marketer for 13 years, and paid multi-level! lol)
I am removing the most redundant categories:
See Wikipedia:Categorization#Creating subcategories: “A good general rule is that articles should be placed in the most specific categories they reasonably fit in. For example, Queen Elizabeth should not be listed directly under People, but Queens of England might be a good place for her.” Rafał Pocztarski 08:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Multi-level marketing (MLM) (also called network marketing (NM)) exhibits a business model which exemplifies direct marketing." (italics added) -- Sounds like POV to me. As far as I can see, multi-level marketing isn't even mentioned on the "direct marketing" page, why not if it exemplifies it. I'm not really sure that it neatly fits into traditional direct marketing.
As for the categories, I tend to agree with the multi-category organization and the point that this is not heirarchal -- DH 2005.04.07
I removed the NPOV tag as from what I read here, none of the complaints about the page are still extant. Grackle 22:44, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Knverma deletes information and put following on my talk page
I'm removing the "notable" word under Multi-level_marketing#Companies section. Until we encourage more wikipedians to add companies, we cannot grow this topic and be comprehensive. If this list grows too long we can start a " List of Multi-level marketing companies" topic or category. Of course affiliate links and referral codes must be prohibited. If you are adding companies, then keep the list alphabetized and wikify it (i.e., write, [Company Name] ). -- Perfecto 01:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
We could have saved ourselves a bit of time. I just noticed that List_of_network_marketing_companies already exists. Edwardian 05:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Recently, Tregoweth removed the entire External Links section, citing " (cleaning up external links ( Wikipedia is not a link repository; linking to totally-pro and totally-con sites not really helpful))." Well, anonymous visitors have been making edits again that are nothing but added HTML links. We got part of this issue cured when we spun off List of network marketing companies. My question is, do we want an External Links section or ban it altogether?
-- Perfecto 02:41, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Right now Independent Business Owner is redlinked. Is there an article that explains this term and terms like downline and other Amway type terms? Perhaps it could be called List of Multi-level marketing terms MPS 14:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Question: Does "Independent Business Owner" have a unique meaning in MLM? It seems to be a self-explanatory term. tregoweth 16:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK only
A/
Q use the acronym "IBO" -- try searching without the acronym. The term really just means that the sales representatives (agents) of a given firm are independent contractors and not employes. AFAIK, all independent contractors (e.g., some plumbers, real estate agents and sculptors) are, for tax purposes of many countries, self-employed business owners. IANAL or an accountant, though. --
Perfecto
02:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Response: What if the requirement is just corporate sites only? Not the Associates/Distributors. Its fairly easy to tell these days if its the main site or not.
I removed the section below:
This was added by User:219.75.98.205 whose only other contributions were spam links. It doesn't seem to me that it adds much to this article, doesn't cite its sources, and is a thinly-veiled advertisement for the empowerism and trafficforless links. -- AbsolutDan (talk) 02:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Self promoting post —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.36.229 ( talk • contribs) deleted by USER MPS
An anonIP editor has taken to removing per se, even though Amway had made deceptive and illegal claims from the sentence in the criticism section which reads
Please don't remove this information again. It is important to state, in a section on criticisms of MLM, that while MLM itself was not ruled illegal, that the biggest MLM company was found guilty of fraudulent behavior. I also reverted the paragraph about some small MLM company going bankrupt, leaving its distributors unpaid. With just the information stated, that's not a problem with MLM - lots of businesses go bankrupt, leaving creditors unpaid. Argyriou 18:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The portion of criticism related to market saturation is simply an opinion. (now removed) There is no evidence suggesting that any product line being sold through Network Marketing has ever reached market saturation.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.107.32 ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 24 March 2008
Should we request semi-protection for this article? Most of the spamlinks being added are added by anonymous users; semi-protection should cut down significantly on the problem. 23 of 24 of the most recent spamlink additions were done by anonIPs. Argyriou (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm arguing with several XanGo distributors at that article, and could use some input. For one thing, the MLMers are indignant that they don't get to use the article for marketing, whereas the Tahitian Noni company has taken over the Noni article and no one has complained. If anyone here has the energy to try to NPOV the Noni article, that would be appreciated. Zora 04:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone needs to add Shaklee to the list MLMs. Thanks.
Its surprising to note that there is no article about Questnet, which is one of the worlds fastest growing network marketing companies, and is already world biggest E-commerce business
Hi Britcom, I don't understand this footnote you inserted. You agree that Quixtar is a MLM? -- Knverma 20:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
12.104.244.6 ( talk · contribs) has edited the Criticisms section, saying that a citation for "However, Amway was found guilty of price fixing (by requiring "independent" distributors to sell at the low price) and making exaggerated income claims.[3]" was needed. This is untrue. The case document, which is referenced, clearly state that Amway required distributors to sell at a particular cost, in violation of price-fixing laws. It's in the summary at the top of the opinion, and detailed further down. User:Argyriou (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
"This order, among other things, requires two Michigan corporations engaged in the door-to-door marketing of various household products, and two corporate officers, to cease allocating customers among their distributors; fixing wholesale and retail prices for their products; taking retaliatory action against recalcitrants; and disseminating price-listing data which fail to advise that price adherence is not obligatory. Respondents are additionally prohibited from misrepresenting potential earnings and other relevants to prospective distributors."
In addition I think that there should be more of a historic context entered into this article.
Also I think perhaps the description of MLM should include it's purpose as an advertising and marketing strategy as opposed to just being described as a business model as there may be businesses that use MLM as a means of testing the market or promoting a particular product,service or line of product/service that does not necessarily constitute the majority of that business's inventory, practice or service activities.
In the future I would hope for more facts about MLM origins, and perhaps a section that addresses the concerns of many MLM proponents. e.g. that the MLM industry is targeted and dissected unfairly as it often counters the deliberate corporate pion conditioning prevalent in modern education systems(just one example.) I mean if popular criticisms are covered maybe there should be a section covering the proponent views.
In fact I think an effort should be made to build,or find comparison statistics to chart income levels for MLM workers compared to other industry workers but I suppose that may or may not have a place in a definitive article, unless it sites any statement indicating the income success or failure rate of its investors in comparison to other investments or careers. 24.1.103.99 00:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree that it is CLEAR that MLM is in general a scam...this is not fact nor an accurate generalization. On what basis do you say MLM damaging, in the realm of advertising promoting and marketing? As a business plan type by comparison to corporate or franchise structures? Or do you mean to the index of personal finance statistics? On any of these basis, I think one would be hard pressed to denigrate MLM in general by comparison mathematically, logically, or even ethically to any corporate, or traditional franchise business model. The start up failure rate of any business is high. The difference between most MLMs I know of and staring up a franchise is that the overhead cost is comparatively ridiculus. As for corporate schemes, The only way to financially profit from a corporation is to work for them as an employee/contractor, or invest in their shares if they are publicly traded. In most cases I'd say that only the second option offers potential to gain any kind of fortune, and often this not much better than gambling since you have almost no say in the operation of the company unless you are a major shareholder. I think it could be lucrative to be an investor but not really to be an employee. As for a traditional franchise or small business I'd rather "fail"(probably because everybody in your social network is an everyman for hisself peon work harder not smarter consumers only here mentality popular cultist and thinks your in a pyramid scheme cult) at an MLM and maybe lose a $40-$500 a year investment than FAIL at one of these. How about going $30,000 into debt because you couldn't turn a profit on a Krispy Kreme franchise you bought (now THATS damage.) traditional business models have absolutely no corner on ethics, financially or otherwise. Many corporations wantonly damage the economy and environment of any community they touch (Wal Mart). "Hollywood" is said to be the greatest polluting industrial base in the world. You mentioned brainwashing, and generating cult-like followings, This is a common practice in all areas of marketing/advertising promotion and industry. Brainwashing with dress codes,keywords, and office politics is the norm. I used to work for G.E.FA periodically we would have training sessions to reinvent our office culture and I just as often could barely contain myself from bursting out in laughter and ridicule at the buzz words they were trying to train us to use. eg one day we were no longer customer service representatives we were now customer DELIVERY representatives. We had to memorize terms like PMCSE Positive Memorable Customer Service Experience! Work for any Six Flags or Disney theme Park and you won't be an employee, you will become a backstage "actor" or "host"!(and you BETTER act like you believe in what your doing) My point is that a cult like presentation or following is hardly an indication that something is a "scam". I think its time to study MLM further if there is to be an entry for it in the wikipedia, without any real study of MLM structures perhaps there is a need for economists who can attest statistics and studies to show wether MLM is damaging to the economy then it should be cited here on the wikipedia. Anything less is POV. 24.1.103.99 19:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The wictionary defines cult as follows: Noun Wikipedia has an article on: Cult
Singular cult
Plural
cults
cult (plural cults)
1. A group or doctrine with religious, philosophical or cultural identity sometimes viewed as a sect, often existent on the margins of society. 2. Devotion to a saint. 3. A group that exploits members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders.
the definition that could most widely be applied to MLM would likely be #3. Yet,This definition could also be used to describe any leader based community,office setting,social group,or business organization larger than mom and pop(actually how many mom and pop businesses don't try to use these kind of methods to secure the help of their heirs.) Please find me an advertising firm or product that does not use any of these measures to win consumers. so I will not argue this point it is almost entirely POV based.Yes MLMs, and any rock band,sports team,religious group or goal oriented organization of any kind with leaders for that matter are cults. I think the key word in culture is cult. I do not think it is safe to say that a group status as a "cult" alone has any definitive bearing on the ethic or viability of its products or goals.
I have been a member of an MLM for about a few months prior to my introduction to this MLM I had already attended a few meetings for others and have been approached by various people offering MLM products in my own experience they were invariaby awesome products o services that I simply could not afford to invest in at that time. I have yet to encounter any edict or mind control attempt by any representative or anyone in my upline that is not in keeping with the dynamics of a personal sales pitch or informative company newsletter. In fact if I could I would be more likely the one to use such a method against some of them to get them motivated to operate more consistantly in my favor, but that would be unethical ;). the reality is that most persons in any MLM are likely to be your average joe or jane trying to make a prospective customer or team member. They are likely to be inexperienced, and yes probably a bible thumper from a team of bible thumpers, who may have joined an MLM in hopes of securing an income that doesn't obviously involve selling out to the big bads.(although how anyone can be certain these guys aren't investing in MLMs is anyones guess.) see this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayer_Amschel_Rothschild_family#Zionism and for good measure watch this video: http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2104576 anyway I did check out the link posted by Argyriou: http://www.mlmwatch.org/01General/10lies.html and I look forward to investigating this site and its creators thouroughly but It seems largely POV to me. btw WTH is this? it seems adware-ish to me I got the link from MLMwatch.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20010418184354/www.herbalawsuit.com/
example of STRONG but POV article bullet points touted as fact/authority:
"Lie #4: MLM is a new way of life that offers happiness and fulfillment. It provides a way to attain all the good things in life.
Truth: The most prominent motivational themes of the MLM industry, as shown in industry literature and presented at recruitment meetings, constitute the crassest form of materialism. Fortune 100 companies would blush at the excess of promises of wealth, luxury, and personal fulfillment put forth by MLM solicitors. These appeals actually conflicts with most people's true desire for meaningful and fulfilling work at something in which they have special talent or interest."
Total POV and probably inaccurate as an article I googled seems to illustrate unless, as is most likely,most people arent finding traditional jobs that fulfill this "meaningful"(surprised? not really) requirement: http://www.laidoffnowwhat.com/CareerSatisfaction.htm
we don't need to make this a childish argument about you and me Argy, I feel you are definately entitled to your opinion but I just wish people would make more effort to be fair in their judgment and not go off of total POV and tout it as fact or authority. I feel people should avoid allowing their prejudice and conditioned brainwashing responses to try and denegrate the efforts of others. Your argument seems to me to be that I should shut up and be quiet because the critisism was not so bad. I only feel that the Wiki about MLM could use some balanced reporting entry! since there was going to be a criticism section. I've got some decent sources here that say some good things about MLM oppurtunities.
Robert Kiyosaki author of "Rich Dad Poor Dad" is reported to have indicated that he would have joined a MLM business if he had to do it all over again. Here is a follow up interview with the investing guru: http://www.greatestnetworker.com/ArticleView.asp?ID=1531 (obviously he does not imply that all MLM are created equal..which they are not, If anyone intends to be succesful at ANYTHING they should do their "homework".)
Warren Buffet famed stock investment expert now owns three direct selling(read network Marketing) companies and says they're the best investments he's "ever made." http://www.directsellingnews.com/archive/2005Nov/archive1105_headlines.php
David Bach author of "Start Late Finish Rich" indicates that he believes direct selling industry now deserves serious consideration as a way to create a second home based income stream for yourself. ok I found a page full of heavy hitter qoutes including the boss himself Donald Trump: http://www.healthybusiness.ca/quotes.html
It makes since that MLM should eventually outpace big industry m, because instead of one administration making rash decisions and spreading a product or service by heavy investment, You have armies of already mostly loyal customers using word of mouth AND multimedia to spread their own experiences and message, which I firmly believe "peer pressure" is still stronger than any ad.
Just look at the this story taken from an article from the previously cited website posted by Argyriou http://www.mlmwatch.org/13Victims/fox.html a pity though it sounds like they did not take control of their business op, and let themselves be dictated and did not do their own homework. Pressure sales is a feature of all sales related businesses and wherever there is sales there will be pressure salesmen until sales pressure is outlawed! In which case we all might as well go live under Castro's regime(he still alive ain't he?) Myself Pressure is just not my style I have more faith in my product and self than that. Btw if being an anonip is reason enough to discount what I say then why does wikipedia allow anonip entries? (I'm just too lazy to register I will someday trust me. I just don't troll wikipedia spewing toxic POV attitudes all day. With that said I leave It to the good registered Wikipedians to continue this discussion and the development of this Wiki, until someday I am called again to reemerge from the shadows and fly as Anonip anti-critic. 24.1.103.99 01:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Whilst the article does contain some criticism of MLM, it occurs as an afterthought. The top sections of the article are pure peacockery extolling the virtues of MLM. Mayalld ( talk) 22:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I edited the mlm page yesterday (12/1/08), completely changing the introductory body text and included 2 external links as they were the source of the information. Both external links were non-commercial and non-company specific websites and whilst the body text has remand unchanged the links have since been removed. Why?
My understanding is that the DSA (direct selling association) is the one of major governing bodies of multilevel marketing and therefore it would be a creditable external link to include for people seeking more information. ( http://www.dsa.org)
Additionally network marketing business school is an education site about the industry and the source of most of my information. Additionally it has good information about how to distinguish the difference between mlm and a pyramid scheme, provides a good history of mlm, and goes into more detail of the different compensation plans. It provides a lot more information that could possibly be listed in wikipedia and therefore I would think it would be another link worthy of inclusion. ( http://www.network-marketing-business-school.com/network-marketing.html)
I though that wikipedia was about providing quality information. If this is the case why have these links been removed as they add value to the readers? More interesting is that fact that some of the existing external links (ten big lies of mlm and the skepic’s dictionary) claim that all mlm plans are flawed pyramid schemes. Whilst I can understand trying to be unbiased, I think that it doesn’t do wikipedia any favors when you make reference to mlm being a legitimate business model in the text, but then provide links they say it is a scam. To me this would just confuse the readers. Why is it that these links are deemed to be creditable but a link to one of the governing body’s not?
Whilst I agree that it is necessary to warn people looking to get involved with mlm about the dangers of pyramid schemes that present themselves to be a legitimate mlm company, both of the external links I included provide these warnings.
I propose that the links be returned. If you disagree please add to this discussion such I can understand why.
Thank you. Norfolkisland ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Editing of the page re: Amway being a Unilevel or Stairstep Breakaway plan
In both the main MLM page and also the page referring to the above topic, I am changing the usage of AMWAY as an example due to the following:
Whoever has used it has cited that AMWAY qualifies in this category because if "a distributor becomes a manager and "breaks away" from his or her original manager...The original manager loses his or her managerial overrides and, instead, receives a percentage override from the sales of the entire breakaway organisation."
This is not entirely true: A platinum (aka direct) IBO/distrubtor, when they attain this level, becomes eligible to recieve a 4% downline bonus on their own downline direct qualified distributors. Their upline direct (or above) distributor still recieves their original 4% of their downline platinums business, as applicable by the AMWAY sales and marketing plan.
For example:
The creation of the new platinum business (B), downline of the original platinum (A) now recieves the 4% leadership bonus of the platinum business (C). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rbrb2222 ( talk • contribs) 05:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed paragraph about market saturation in MLM. There is no documentation of this POV on the cited reference. It should be either proven that such saturation exists or not included. Djglove ( talk) 23:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Another criticism is that MLM programs are set up to make most distributors fail, as there is an incentive to continue to recruit distributors even as the products have reached market saturation, thus causing the average earnings per distributor to continue to fall. [1]
This site meets WP:ELNO as a link to avoid. Namely, it's a POV site that "misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research". -- Insider201283 ( talk) 03:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have any citation for this statement? I might be willing to concede using "Some MLM programs..." (even that is a stretch) but I don't see any evidence that "Many MLM programs feature intense motivational programs, which can be hard to distinguish from cult propaganda."...at least no more so than corporate motivational programs. Microsoft, Apple, etc. Input? Djglove ( talk) 15:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
After reading the citation for the following statement, I think that some liberty has been taken..."Some of the "Independent Business Organizations" within Amway have been accused of operating as cults." Recommend taking directly from the article stating: "So-called corporate cults are businesses whose techniques to gain employee commitment and loyalty are in some ways similar to those used by traditional cults." Djglove ( talk) 20:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Accusations do not count as legitimate non biased information. End the generalization to end the confusion as to whom, what and where these cultish behaviors have been observed. Otherwise, my first impression is that associate motivational training to teach them how to be effective sales people must be wrong and if it's wrong, then it's wrong for traditional conventional corporate businesses, too. Thus, loyalty to a brand and truly believing in it must be cultish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.56.247.50 ( talk) 00:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I have family member that has currently fallen victim to one of these schemes and is telling me numbers that I believe to be inaccurate, "That there are more millionaires in MLM or Network Marketing than in any other industry in the USA" Can we please put up some actual numbers on the article that are sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.139.85.43 ( talk) 18:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Unilevel compensation is not the same as Stair-Step Breakaway. I fixed this by removing Unilevel from the Stair-step area and adding a Unilevel explanation. Also, the explanation of stair-step breakaway seems to be related to a particular company, not a true definition of the plan. I will fix this when I get time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.107.32 ( talk) 04:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I added Hybrid compensation plans to the article today. Would it help if I cited particular companies and documents that showed examples of these plans? Djglove ( talk) 16:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
MLM in the UK has a completely different meaning; maybe that should be mentioned in the article...
I would also add that the two terms are not interchangeable. Network marketing is about the structure which is created. Multilevel refers to the commissions paid on more than one level in the structure. It is quite normal for a company to have many, many levels in it's network but only to pay the independent contractors/distributors on one level. Therefore I move that we do NOT merge the two categories. (Credentials: full time network marketer for 13 years, and paid multi-level! lol)
I am removing the most redundant categories:
See Wikipedia:Categorization#Creating subcategories: “A good general rule is that articles should be placed in the most specific categories they reasonably fit in. For example, Queen Elizabeth should not be listed directly under People, but Queens of England might be a good place for her.” Rafał Pocztarski 08:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Multi-level marketing (MLM) (also called network marketing (NM)) exhibits a business model which exemplifies direct marketing." (italics added) -- Sounds like POV to me. As far as I can see, multi-level marketing isn't even mentioned on the "direct marketing" page, why not if it exemplifies it. I'm not really sure that it neatly fits into traditional direct marketing.
As for the categories, I tend to agree with the multi-category organization and the point that this is not heirarchal -- DH 2005.04.07
I removed the NPOV tag as from what I read here, none of the complaints about the page are still extant. Grackle 22:44, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Knverma deletes information and put following on my talk page
I'm removing the "notable" word under Multi-level_marketing#Companies section. Until we encourage more wikipedians to add companies, we cannot grow this topic and be comprehensive. If this list grows too long we can start a " List of Multi-level marketing companies" topic or category. Of course affiliate links and referral codes must be prohibited. If you are adding companies, then keep the list alphabetized and wikify it (i.e., write, [Company Name] ). -- Perfecto 01:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
We could have saved ourselves a bit of time. I just noticed that List_of_network_marketing_companies already exists. Edwardian 05:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Recently, Tregoweth removed the entire External Links section, citing " (cleaning up external links ( Wikipedia is not a link repository; linking to totally-pro and totally-con sites not really helpful))." Well, anonymous visitors have been making edits again that are nothing but added HTML links. We got part of this issue cured when we spun off List of network marketing companies. My question is, do we want an External Links section or ban it altogether?
-- Perfecto 02:41, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Right now Independent Business Owner is redlinked. Is there an article that explains this term and terms like downline and other Amway type terms? Perhaps it could be called List of Multi-level marketing terms MPS 14:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Question: Does "Independent Business Owner" have a unique meaning in MLM? It seems to be a self-explanatory term. tregoweth 16:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK only
A/
Q use the acronym "IBO" -- try searching without the acronym. The term really just means that the sales representatives (agents) of a given firm are independent contractors and not employes. AFAIK, all independent contractors (e.g., some plumbers, real estate agents and sculptors) are, for tax purposes of many countries, self-employed business owners. IANAL or an accountant, though. --
Perfecto
02:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Response: What if the requirement is just corporate sites only? Not the Associates/Distributors. Its fairly easy to tell these days if its the main site or not.
I removed the section below:
This was added by User:219.75.98.205 whose only other contributions were spam links. It doesn't seem to me that it adds much to this article, doesn't cite its sources, and is a thinly-veiled advertisement for the empowerism and trafficforless links. -- AbsolutDan (talk) 02:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Self promoting post —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.36.229 ( talk • contribs) deleted by USER MPS
An anonIP editor has taken to removing per se, even though Amway had made deceptive and illegal claims from the sentence in the criticism section which reads
Please don't remove this information again. It is important to state, in a section on criticisms of MLM, that while MLM itself was not ruled illegal, that the biggest MLM company was found guilty of fraudulent behavior. I also reverted the paragraph about some small MLM company going bankrupt, leaving its distributors unpaid. With just the information stated, that's not a problem with MLM - lots of businesses go bankrupt, leaving creditors unpaid. Argyriou 18:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The portion of criticism related to market saturation is simply an opinion. (now removed) There is no evidence suggesting that any product line being sold through Network Marketing has ever reached market saturation.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.107.32 ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 24 March 2008
Should we request semi-protection for this article? Most of the spamlinks being added are added by anonymous users; semi-protection should cut down significantly on the problem. 23 of 24 of the most recent spamlink additions were done by anonIPs. Argyriou (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm arguing with several XanGo distributors at that article, and could use some input. For one thing, the MLMers are indignant that they don't get to use the article for marketing, whereas the Tahitian Noni company has taken over the Noni article and no one has complained. If anyone here has the energy to try to NPOV the Noni article, that would be appreciated. Zora 04:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone needs to add Shaklee to the list MLMs. Thanks.
Its surprising to note that there is no article about Questnet, which is one of the worlds fastest growing network marketing companies, and is already world biggest E-commerce business
Hi Britcom, I don't understand this footnote you inserted. You agree that Quixtar is a MLM? -- Knverma 20:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
12.104.244.6 ( talk · contribs) has edited the Criticisms section, saying that a citation for "However, Amway was found guilty of price fixing (by requiring "independent" distributors to sell at the low price) and making exaggerated income claims.[3]" was needed. This is untrue. The case document, which is referenced, clearly state that Amway required distributors to sell at a particular cost, in violation of price-fixing laws. It's in the summary at the top of the opinion, and detailed further down. User:Argyriou (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
"This order, among other things, requires two Michigan corporations engaged in the door-to-door marketing of various household products, and two corporate officers, to cease allocating customers among their distributors; fixing wholesale and retail prices for their products; taking retaliatory action against recalcitrants; and disseminating price-listing data which fail to advise that price adherence is not obligatory. Respondents are additionally prohibited from misrepresenting potential earnings and other relevants to prospective distributors."
In addition I think that there should be more of a historic context entered into this article.
Also I think perhaps the description of MLM should include it's purpose as an advertising and marketing strategy as opposed to just being described as a business model as there may be businesses that use MLM as a means of testing the market or promoting a particular product,service or line of product/service that does not necessarily constitute the majority of that business's inventory, practice or service activities.
In the future I would hope for more facts about MLM origins, and perhaps a section that addresses the concerns of many MLM proponents. e.g. that the MLM industry is targeted and dissected unfairly as it often counters the deliberate corporate pion conditioning prevalent in modern education systems(just one example.) I mean if popular criticisms are covered maybe there should be a section covering the proponent views.
In fact I think an effort should be made to build,or find comparison statistics to chart income levels for MLM workers compared to other industry workers but I suppose that may or may not have a place in a definitive article, unless it sites any statement indicating the income success or failure rate of its investors in comparison to other investments or careers. 24.1.103.99 00:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree that it is CLEAR that MLM is in general a scam...this is not fact nor an accurate generalization. On what basis do you say MLM damaging, in the realm of advertising promoting and marketing? As a business plan type by comparison to corporate or franchise structures? Or do you mean to the index of personal finance statistics? On any of these basis, I think one would be hard pressed to denigrate MLM in general by comparison mathematically, logically, or even ethically to any corporate, or traditional franchise business model. The start up failure rate of any business is high. The difference between most MLMs I know of and staring up a franchise is that the overhead cost is comparatively ridiculus. As for corporate schemes, The only way to financially profit from a corporation is to work for them as an employee/contractor, or invest in their shares if they are publicly traded. In most cases I'd say that only the second option offers potential to gain any kind of fortune, and often this not much better than gambling since you have almost no say in the operation of the company unless you are a major shareholder. I think it could be lucrative to be an investor but not really to be an employee. As for a traditional franchise or small business I'd rather "fail"(probably because everybody in your social network is an everyman for hisself peon work harder not smarter consumers only here mentality popular cultist and thinks your in a pyramid scheme cult) at an MLM and maybe lose a $40-$500 a year investment than FAIL at one of these. How about going $30,000 into debt because you couldn't turn a profit on a Krispy Kreme franchise you bought (now THATS damage.) traditional business models have absolutely no corner on ethics, financially or otherwise. Many corporations wantonly damage the economy and environment of any community they touch (Wal Mart). "Hollywood" is said to be the greatest polluting industrial base in the world. You mentioned brainwashing, and generating cult-like followings, This is a common practice in all areas of marketing/advertising promotion and industry. Brainwashing with dress codes,keywords, and office politics is the norm. I used to work for G.E.FA periodically we would have training sessions to reinvent our office culture and I just as often could barely contain myself from bursting out in laughter and ridicule at the buzz words they were trying to train us to use. eg one day we were no longer customer service representatives we were now customer DELIVERY representatives. We had to memorize terms like PMCSE Positive Memorable Customer Service Experience! Work for any Six Flags or Disney theme Park and you won't be an employee, you will become a backstage "actor" or "host"!(and you BETTER act like you believe in what your doing) My point is that a cult like presentation or following is hardly an indication that something is a "scam". I think its time to study MLM further if there is to be an entry for it in the wikipedia, without any real study of MLM structures perhaps there is a need for economists who can attest statistics and studies to show wether MLM is damaging to the economy then it should be cited here on the wikipedia. Anything less is POV. 24.1.103.99 19:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The wictionary defines cult as follows: Noun Wikipedia has an article on: Cult
Singular cult
Plural
cults
cult (plural cults)
1. A group or doctrine with religious, philosophical or cultural identity sometimes viewed as a sect, often existent on the margins of society. 2. Devotion to a saint. 3. A group that exploits members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders.
the definition that could most widely be applied to MLM would likely be #3. Yet,This definition could also be used to describe any leader based community,office setting,social group,or business organization larger than mom and pop(actually how many mom and pop businesses don't try to use these kind of methods to secure the help of their heirs.) Please find me an advertising firm or product that does not use any of these measures to win consumers. so I will not argue this point it is almost entirely POV based.Yes MLMs, and any rock band,sports team,religious group or goal oriented organization of any kind with leaders for that matter are cults. I think the key word in culture is cult. I do not think it is safe to say that a group status as a "cult" alone has any definitive bearing on the ethic or viability of its products or goals.
I have been a member of an MLM for about a few months prior to my introduction to this MLM I had already attended a few meetings for others and have been approached by various people offering MLM products in my own experience they were invariaby awesome products o services that I simply could not afford to invest in at that time. I have yet to encounter any edict or mind control attempt by any representative or anyone in my upline that is not in keeping with the dynamics of a personal sales pitch or informative company newsletter. In fact if I could I would be more likely the one to use such a method against some of them to get them motivated to operate more consistantly in my favor, but that would be unethical ;). the reality is that most persons in any MLM are likely to be your average joe or jane trying to make a prospective customer or team member. They are likely to be inexperienced, and yes probably a bible thumper from a team of bible thumpers, who may have joined an MLM in hopes of securing an income that doesn't obviously involve selling out to the big bads.(although how anyone can be certain these guys aren't investing in MLMs is anyones guess.) see this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayer_Amschel_Rothschild_family#Zionism and for good measure watch this video: http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2104576 anyway I did check out the link posted by Argyriou: http://www.mlmwatch.org/01General/10lies.html and I look forward to investigating this site and its creators thouroughly but It seems largely POV to me. btw WTH is this? it seems adware-ish to me I got the link from MLMwatch.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20010418184354/www.herbalawsuit.com/
example of STRONG but POV article bullet points touted as fact/authority:
"Lie #4: MLM is a new way of life that offers happiness and fulfillment. It provides a way to attain all the good things in life.
Truth: The most prominent motivational themes of the MLM industry, as shown in industry literature and presented at recruitment meetings, constitute the crassest form of materialism. Fortune 100 companies would blush at the excess of promises of wealth, luxury, and personal fulfillment put forth by MLM solicitors. These appeals actually conflicts with most people's true desire for meaningful and fulfilling work at something in which they have special talent or interest."
Total POV and probably inaccurate as an article I googled seems to illustrate unless, as is most likely,most people arent finding traditional jobs that fulfill this "meaningful"(surprised? not really) requirement: http://www.laidoffnowwhat.com/CareerSatisfaction.htm
we don't need to make this a childish argument about you and me Argy, I feel you are definately entitled to your opinion but I just wish people would make more effort to be fair in their judgment and not go off of total POV and tout it as fact or authority. I feel people should avoid allowing their prejudice and conditioned brainwashing responses to try and denegrate the efforts of others. Your argument seems to me to be that I should shut up and be quiet because the critisism was not so bad. I only feel that the Wiki about MLM could use some balanced reporting entry! since there was going to be a criticism section. I've got some decent sources here that say some good things about MLM oppurtunities.
Robert Kiyosaki author of "Rich Dad Poor Dad" is reported to have indicated that he would have joined a MLM business if he had to do it all over again. Here is a follow up interview with the investing guru: http://www.greatestnetworker.com/ArticleView.asp?ID=1531 (obviously he does not imply that all MLM are created equal..which they are not, If anyone intends to be succesful at ANYTHING they should do their "homework".)
Warren Buffet famed stock investment expert now owns three direct selling(read network Marketing) companies and says they're the best investments he's "ever made." http://www.directsellingnews.com/archive/2005Nov/archive1105_headlines.php
David Bach author of "Start Late Finish Rich" indicates that he believes direct selling industry now deserves serious consideration as a way to create a second home based income stream for yourself. ok I found a page full of heavy hitter qoutes including the boss himself Donald Trump: http://www.healthybusiness.ca/quotes.html
It makes since that MLM should eventually outpace big industry m, because instead of one administration making rash decisions and spreading a product or service by heavy investment, You have armies of already mostly loyal customers using word of mouth AND multimedia to spread their own experiences and message, which I firmly believe "peer pressure" is still stronger than any ad.
Just look at the this story taken from an article from the previously cited website posted by Argyriou http://www.mlmwatch.org/13Victims/fox.html a pity though it sounds like they did not take control of their business op, and let themselves be dictated and did not do their own homework. Pressure sales is a feature of all sales related businesses and wherever there is sales there will be pressure salesmen until sales pressure is outlawed! In which case we all might as well go live under Castro's regime(he still alive ain't he?) Myself Pressure is just not my style I have more faith in my product and self than that. Btw if being an anonip is reason enough to discount what I say then why does wikipedia allow anonip entries? (I'm just too lazy to register I will someday trust me. I just don't troll wikipedia spewing toxic POV attitudes all day. With that said I leave It to the good registered Wikipedians to continue this discussion and the development of this Wiki, until someday I am called again to reemerge from the shadows and fly as Anonip anti-critic. 24.1.103.99 01:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Whilst the article does contain some criticism of MLM, it occurs as an afterthought. The top sections of the article are pure peacockery extolling the virtues of MLM. Mayalld ( talk) 22:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I edited the mlm page yesterday (12/1/08), completely changing the introductory body text and included 2 external links as they were the source of the information. Both external links were non-commercial and non-company specific websites and whilst the body text has remand unchanged the links have since been removed. Why?
My understanding is that the DSA (direct selling association) is the one of major governing bodies of multilevel marketing and therefore it would be a creditable external link to include for people seeking more information. ( http://www.dsa.org)
Additionally network marketing business school is an education site about the industry and the source of most of my information. Additionally it has good information about how to distinguish the difference between mlm and a pyramid scheme, provides a good history of mlm, and goes into more detail of the different compensation plans. It provides a lot more information that could possibly be listed in wikipedia and therefore I would think it would be another link worthy of inclusion. ( http://www.network-marketing-business-school.com/network-marketing.html)
I though that wikipedia was about providing quality information. If this is the case why have these links been removed as they add value to the readers? More interesting is that fact that some of the existing external links (ten big lies of mlm and the skepic’s dictionary) claim that all mlm plans are flawed pyramid schemes. Whilst I can understand trying to be unbiased, I think that it doesn’t do wikipedia any favors when you make reference to mlm being a legitimate business model in the text, but then provide links they say it is a scam. To me this would just confuse the readers. Why is it that these links are deemed to be creditable but a link to one of the governing body’s not?
Whilst I agree that it is necessary to warn people looking to get involved with mlm about the dangers of pyramid schemes that present themselves to be a legitimate mlm company, both of the external links I included provide these warnings.
I propose that the links be returned. If you disagree please add to this discussion such I can understand why.
Thank you. Norfolkisland ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Editing of the page re: Amway being a Unilevel or Stairstep Breakaway plan
In both the main MLM page and also the page referring to the above topic, I am changing the usage of AMWAY as an example due to the following:
Whoever has used it has cited that AMWAY qualifies in this category because if "a distributor becomes a manager and "breaks away" from his or her original manager...The original manager loses his or her managerial overrides and, instead, receives a percentage override from the sales of the entire breakaway organisation."
This is not entirely true: A platinum (aka direct) IBO/distrubtor, when they attain this level, becomes eligible to recieve a 4% downline bonus on their own downline direct qualified distributors. Their upline direct (or above) distributor still recieves their original 4% of their downline platinums business, as applicable by the AMWAY sales and marketing plan.
For example:
The creation of the new platinum business (B), downline of the original platinum (A) now recieves the 4% leadership bonus of the platinum business (C). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rbrb2222 ( talk • contribs) 05:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed paragraph about market saturation in MLM. There is no documentation of this POV on the cited reference. It should be either proven that such saturation exists or not included. Djglove ( talk) 23:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Another criticism is that MLM programs are set up to make most distributors fail, as there is an incentive to continue to recruit distributors even as the products have reached market saturation, thus causing the average earnings per distributor to continue to fall. [1]
This site meets WP:ELNO as a link to avoid. Namely, it's a POV site that "misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research". -- Insider201283 ( talk) 03:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have any citation for this statement? I might be willing to concede using "Some MLM programs..." (even that is a stretch) but I don't see any evidence that "Many MLM programs feature intense motivational programs, which can be hard to distinguish from cult propaganda."...at least no more so than corporate motivational programs. Microsoft, Apple, etc. Input? Djglove ( talk) 15:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
After reading the citation for the following statement, I think that some liberty has been taken..."Some of the "Independent Business Organizations" within Amway have been accused of operating as cults." Recommend taking directly from the article stating: "So-called corporate cults are businesses whose techniques to gain employee commitment and loyalty are in some ways similar to those used by traditional cults." Djglove ( talk) 20:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Accusations do not count as legitimate non biased information. End the generalization to end the confusion as to whom, what and where these cultish behaviors have been observed. Otherwise, my first impression is that associate motivational training to teach them how to be effective sales people must be wrong and if it's wrong, then it's wrong for traditional conventional corporate businesses, too. Thus, loyalty to a brand and truly believing in it must be cultish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.56.247.50 ( talk) 00:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)